1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: give them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: or god forbid, a toy gun that's just gonna end 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: up in the garage. Give them something that matters, and 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: what matters the most is protecting their child. What do 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: you love most in the world Your children? What will 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: you do to protect them anything. I sat down with 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: these smartest people I know in the world on matters 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crime stops here dot 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: com for a five part series with action information that 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: you can use to change your life and protect your child. 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: Payments starting six. Give that as a gift, not an 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: other one. Find out how to protect your child when 18 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: you're out of the mall or the store, or the grocery, 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: in the parking lot at home. Find out about protection 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: regarding babysitters, in daycare, even online. I'd rather have that 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: any day of the week than a plastic toy our 22 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: God forbid a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: This morning we were called out here Ali Conte in 25 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: reference to a fifteen year old had come home from school. Uh. 26 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: His front door was kicked in, her side door was 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: kicked in, the house was ransacked. His mother's car was 28 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: in the driveway and the engine was running, and hence 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 1: the investigation began. And as the investigation began, it became 30 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: quite apparent that this was not an act of random violence, 31 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: that in fact, a fifteen year old probably had killed 32 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: his mother sometime last night, and after some great detective work, 33 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: in great police work, we were able to charge or 34 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: actuallyssary in the process of charging her fifteen year old 35 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: son was strangling her to death sometime after midnight into 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: Friday morning. Uh. He then took the body to a 37 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: nearby church where he buried underneath of the fire pit. 38 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: Came back to the house, staged a burglary, got some 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: of his friends to get involved to get the electronics 40 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: and a gun that was stolen. I Nancy Grace, this 41 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: is Crime Stories, Thank you for being with us. Did 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: a schoolboy strangle his architect mom dad and then bury 43 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: her body under a church fire pit, begging his friends 44 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: to make it all look like a burglary. And it's 45 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: all over a bad grade at school. I can hardly 46 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: take it in. I'm gonna tell you, it's making me 47 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: rethink every time I picked the twins up at school 48 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: and go, hey, how'd you do on your social studies test? Yeah? 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: If you make an A? Is that too much stress? 50 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: What have I lost my mind? It's not her fault. 51 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: The kid made a d and she fussed at him, 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: and he murdered her. You know what, Let me get 53 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: the facts first to Nicole parton Crime online dot Com 54 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: investigative reporter who we were just hearing as the Volucia 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: County Sheriff Mike Chitwood describing the investigation to the death 56 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: of a lovely young mom, Gail cleveland Er. Nicole uh 57 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: intimately familiar with the facts. Start at the beginning, Nicole, 58 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: what happened from fifteen year old Gregory? He later says 59 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: he deserves the Grammy for that call. He says he 60 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: came home from school, his mother is missing. The home 61 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: has been ramsacked, their items that are missing, The front 62 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: door has kicked in, her car is running in the driveway, 63 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: and he says she's not there and he doesn't know 64 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: what's happened. I can hardly take it in uh. Nicole 65 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: parton Joining Me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole, 66 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: how did it all start? Tell me about what police 67 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: find when they get there? Nancy Sheriff Chitwood, calling this 68 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: one of the saddest, most disturbing cases of his career. 69 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: And you're right, it all starts over a bad grade. 70 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: Approximately eleven pm at night, Gale and her fifteen year 71 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: old son get into a discussion about this bad grade. 72 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: He storms off into his bedroom typical fifteen year old behavior, 73 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he 74 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: comes out of the bedroom, goes into his mother's bedroom 75 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: where she's sleeping, wakes her up, and begins to strangle her. 76 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: Joining me is Nicole Parton Crime online dot Com investigative 77 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: reporter renew family lawyer out of North Carolina, Kathleen Murphy, Dr. 78 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and boy, do we need a shrink? 79 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: Also with me Penny Douglas for trial lawyer of the 80 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: Atlanta Jurisdiction and also joining me, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, 81 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of 82 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: a new book, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Okay, 83 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: I want to figure out the scene. We we don't 84 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: know what happened to Joe Scott Morrigan explained to me 85 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: what we are looking at crime evidence wise? What are 86 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: the c s I looking for? Well, I think the 87 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: biggest the watchword here, Nancy is consistency. Uh what is 88 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: it that is being uh seen observable by the law 89 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: enforcement officers upon rival. We've got evidence that, according to 90 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: what is being said, that a door has been kicked in, 91 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: that the area throughout the house has been ransacked. That 92 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: gives us the initial impression at least, uh that there 93 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: may be a property crime go gone wrong. And one 94 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: of the more interesting things is that her vehicle was 95 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: found a van outside of the home and according to 96 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: this young man, the vehicle was found running. So this 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: all initially at least gives the police an idea that 98 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: maybe this is a break in gone bad. After speaking 99 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: to neighbors there in DeBerry, Florida, they say that yo Clevelander, 100 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: uh deeply religious, very well educated at an architect, Mom 101 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: and was extremely supportive of her son, extremely supportive of him. 102 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: And it's hard for me to take in that a 103 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: a child, he's still a miner, would kill his own mother. Uh. 104 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: To Dr Daniel bober forensic psychiatrists, patricide or killing him 105 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: a parent is very very rare, especially matricide killing of 106 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: the mother. Why is that so rare? Dr Bober Well, Nancy, 107 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean it has to do with the attachment that 108 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: you know a child has with their mother. It's just 109 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: a very rare event. But remember something. You know, this 110 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 1: is a fifteen year old kid, and a lot of 111 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: times when fifteen year old to do things, they're very impulsive. 112 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: But the fact that he waited, there was a delay, 113 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: and then he strangled her, and then he staged the 114 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: scene to make it look like a burglary. I mean 115 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: that comes from a very different place. This was not 116 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: uh an impulsive act. This was very cold and it 117 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: was very calculated. Take a listen to Milusia County Sheriff 118 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: Mike Chitwood answering questions rage. Apparently there was a dispute 119 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: about March with his mother um and in her an argument. 120 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: OC heard it around eleven o'clock or so and a 121 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: run twelve thirty. He went into her room and woke 122 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: her up and began strangling, strangled until he killed. And 123 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: then he had to do something with the body. So 124 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: he he put the body in the back of his 125 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: mother's call, drove to Daytona and and Ally Hillarry where 126 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: he was going to dispose of the body, thought better 127 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: of it, came back home, got shovel, got everything he needed, 128 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: drove one five miles down the road to the church. Uh, 129 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: Doug depositive mother in it, covered it up. Maybe trime 130 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: scene look like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then 131 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: went to school, left school early, which is where still 132 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: he began to fall apart, and then got home and 133 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: made his uh, in his own words, a Grammy winning 134 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did 135 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: not really occur to Penny Douglas Fur joining me Atlanta 136 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: defense lawyer, Penny Douglas Fur, if you have to handle 137 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: this case for the defense, what are you going to say? 138 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: He's just really a misunderstood boy. There obviously some psychological 139 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: issues there. I would first have him examined because kids 140 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: don't get bad grades because they want to get bad 141 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: grades and I don't know what the mother said to him, 142 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: but whatever it was, it pushed him over the edge. 143 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: We need to know what else happened, what led up 144 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: to this, Did he have bad grades before this, and 145 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: what were they doing to try and fix it. It 146 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: sounds like his mother's well educated and if her child 147 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: is getting bad grades, she would get somebody to work 148 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: with him and somebody to help him. So I'm trying 149 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: to find out. I would first try to find out 150 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: where all of this came from and how long this 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: had been happening. Of course, Penny Douglas for the Consummate 152 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: defense attorney says, I'd like to find out what the 153 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: mom said that made him do this. You know what, 154 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: the more victim blaming, Kathleen, But I get a penny. 155 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: That's what you do for a living, not judging, not 156 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: not better, excuse me not judging to Kathleen Murphy, North 157 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: Carolina lawyer, you have a very different take on this kid. 158 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: I absolutely have a different take on this child. I 159 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: have a take on the status of this child's relationship 160 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: with both of his parents. I have an opinion that 161 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: this child was manipulating his mother throughout his life. The 162 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: father was away on a business trick. You got back tonight. Um, 163 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: so you know there's a lot of there's a lot 164 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: of heartache, and that finally you know, not only do 165 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: you have a son killers her mother, but you have 166 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: the father who was away and you know he comes back, 167 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 1: he lands. The next thing he knows the police. You 168 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: have taken him into the police district to talk about 169 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: your wife is missing. Oh my stars, can you imagine 170 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: you get back in town, your house is ransacked and 171 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: your wife, your your spouse is missing. We're talking about 172 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: out a lovely young mother, Gil Clevelander, an educated woman 173 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: who was very supportive of her son, Greg, aged fifteen. 174 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: Oh my stars, Oh my stars. And to get that news. 175 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: I'm easy, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for 176 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: being with us. Now, Penny Douglas for Atlanta veteran defense 177 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: attorney says, oh, well, clearly the boy, the little boy 178 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: has a psychological problem. And I wonder what the mom said, 179 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: what Gail Clevanger said to make him do this? All right, 180 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: I can't say I expected anything different, But Kathleen, not judging, 181 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: not judging, Penny joining right now, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer, 182 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: Let's just say She's not as sympathetic to Gregory absolutely 183 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: as Penny Douglas. Fur is Kathleen Murphy. What have you learned? 184 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: I've learned that this child was manipulating, in my opinion, 185 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: his mother all of his life because he has the 186 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: ability to man up to her. There was not a 187 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: father figure in this child's life. And this child has 188 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: a presence online that is also somewhat disturbing. So if 189 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: his mother is concerned about a D on his report 190 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: card and approaches him about it, she should really be concerned. 191 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: What is he doing on four Chan? What is he 192 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: doing with the alt right thought process? And that's not 193 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: even addressed, I believe. I'm looking at photos right now 194 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: of the two of them together, Greg fifteen and his mom, 195 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: Gail Cleminger, And here they are, Uh, she's apparently taking 196 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: karate with him. Is that what that is he's got? 197 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: They both have on there. It looks like karate or 198 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: maybe te condo. The patch on Greg's arms his teaching assistant. 199 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking at all these photos of the mom and 200 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: the sun together. There's a shot of River City Church, 201 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: one and a half miles away from the home where 202 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: her body was found buried in a fire pit behind 203 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: it with her foot protruding. Very important. I'm looking at 204 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: the book. In photo of the sun Um Gail Clevelands 205 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: Ha tried to fight back as she was being strangled. 206 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: There's cracked scratch marks across the Sun's face, under his 207 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: right eye and around his nose in the mug shot. 208 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: I'm looking at them all right now. Let me ask you, 209 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: Nicole Parton, what did the friends have to do with this? 210 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: Did he unless them to try to make it look 211 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: like a burglary? He did, two high school friends. He 212 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: calls them up after he killed her and says, look, 213 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: I need some help. They come over. They assist him 214 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: with getting rid of the body. They assist him with 215 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: taking items out of the house to make it look 216 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: like a burglary. And it's kind of odd to note. 217 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: After they bury her, they stop at the circle k 218 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: and grab a soda, then head back to the house 219 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: to stage the crime scene together. Okay, well, Nicole Parton, 220 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: please say that one more time. What did you say 221 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: about the circle k? After they get rid of the body, 222 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: bury the body at the fire pit at the church, 223 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: the boys stop at circle K to grab a soda. 224 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: They have a soda I don't know, maybe a snack too. 225 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: They head back to the house and then stage the 226 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: crime scene. Okay, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, renowned forensic psychiatrists. 227 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Penny Douglas for bleeding heart 228 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: defense lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Okay, it's she. 229 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: You know, she wins all of her cases number one. 230 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: Now I know why she really believes it. Dctor Daniel Bober. 231 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: For just about thirty seconds, I was trying to focus 232 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: on what Penny Douglas fur was saying. Now that I 233 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: know this guy, this kid stops at the circle k 234 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: and kicks back for a slurpie after he buries his 235 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: mother's body. He yeah, no, Uh, he is not insane. 236 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: He does not have psychological problem. He's just main and 237 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: enlist the help of two other sociopaths to help in 238 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: stage the scene and make it look like a burglary. Uh. 239 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: You know, he may have problems, but they're more of 240 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: the personality variety. They're more of the antisocial variety. He's 241 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: clearly a kid who has very little empathy and cannot 242 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: have any remorse for other human beings. Are you saying 243 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: he's a sociopath or a psychopath And what's the difference, Well, 244 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: they both they both. They both are variations in the 245 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: same thing, which means that people have empty social traits. 246 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: They lie, they manipulate their conning. Uh, they don't have 247 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: empathy for others, and they sort of had this mock 248 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: of valiant way of leading their lives where they do 249 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: whatever they need to do and they don't care who 250 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: they have to step on in the process. Now I'm 251 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: looking at the two co defendants, not not codefendants in 252 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: the actual murder of his mom, Gail Clevinger, but of 253 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: staging the scene and disposing of the body. Joseph S. 254 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: Gott Morgan. This is crazy. Your son is about this age, 255 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: and I'm looking at the two co defendants. They just 256 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: look like normal teen kids. You'd never imagine they could 257 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: do something like this. I'm looking at him Greg, the son, 258 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: the teen boy, and all the happy shots that the 259 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: mom is posted. There's the mom um, there's the boy's father, 260 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: there is the I guess it's a stepdad. I'm not sure. 261 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: She had just called the boy's father to tell him 262 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: their son had made a d D as in delta 263 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: at school. And according to police, he was in motivated 264 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: by rage to kill his mother. Here he is Gregory 265 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: Ramos with the grandma, looking loving on the grandma. And 266 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: here is the mom, Gail and one of her professional sites. 267 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: Now interesting, Uh, she was absent from work the morning 268 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: that she was down. I'm looking at their home, nice, 269 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: big yard with trees all around it. The van, her 270 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: van was left running outside. My question to you, um, 271 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, your son is this age. I bet all 272 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: of his friends look like they would never dream of 273 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: doing anything like this, just like these kids do. Yeah, 274 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, uh, you know who he would call 275 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: up in the event that he needed this kind of 276 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: help and who he would be aligning himself with that 277 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: without argument, without any compunction whatsoever, that they would just 278 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, agree to go and yeah, yeah, sure, we'll 279 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: we'll go. Barry mom, your mom with you, you know, 280 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: the lady that's probably you know, I don't know, fixed 281 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: some sandwiches, you know, had him over, Maybe they had 282 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: sleepovers when they were younger, you know, all those sorts 283 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: of things. How do you how do you how does 284 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: this kid have these kinds of associates that would enter 285 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: into this kind of Confederate received with him to do this. 286 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: It absolutely blows my mind. And of course it's you know, 287 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: as with all these kinds of things, Uh, the police 288 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: via forensics as well as questioning these individuals are going 289 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: to be able to figure this out. These people are 290 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: not rocket scientists, you know. To Nicole parton Crime Online 291 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: dot Com Investigative Reporter, where you can find this and 292 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: all other crime and justice news. I'm looking at her postings, 293 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: Gail Clevelander's postings. Here she is with her husband, Danny Clevelander. 294 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: She's not a single mom. The bio dad is still 295 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: out there in his lot in the boy's life, and 296 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: the step dad here they are at the beach and 297 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: they're hugging each other with the beach in the background, 298 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: and she's put like the shiny stars, you know, super 299 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: imposed them all around them like they're in love. I'm 300 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: looking at their home. It's got a great yard, hard 301 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: for him to play with. Here he is with his grandma. 302 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: Here she is with the boy's dad and him at 303 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: some event. My point is Nicole, everything she posed and 304 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: everything we can find of them. They look so happy, 305 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: they do, and even the neighbors they're saying they moved 306 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: into that community about five years ago. The neighbors were 307 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: saying they were very kind, they were sweet, they never 308 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: heard arguments, nothing out of the way. The neighbors calling 309 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: them a very loving family. Take a listen to be 310 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: Lucia County Sheriff Mike Chipwood of what he tells us. 311 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: There's a lot of crimes. She has a lot of 312 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: different working on. There's autograph. I mean, a lot of 313 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: great defective workers, a lot of great police work. And 314 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: I think from the very beginning when the detectors got 315 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: on the scene and look at the physical evidence and 316 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: listen to the stories, even listen to nine one one 317 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: call things just didding that up, Just just didding that up. 318 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: People just don't walk in through a burglary, and you know, 319 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: and the story did that up. The woman never made 320 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: it to work this morning, so working when she was missing, say, 321 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: there was no way she could have driven. 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That's blinds 348 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: dot Com promo code Nancy for off Everything foe Wood Blinds, 349 00:21:54,280 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: Cellular shades, roller Shades, Everything Blinds dot Com promo Code 350 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: Nancy rules and restrictions do apply. Chilling details as a 351 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: teenage one is charged in the murder of his own mother, 352 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: accused of weaving a twisted plot to cover it up. 353 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: Police say it started Thursday night with a fight between 354 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: the teen and his mother, forty six year old Gail Clevelander, 355 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: over his grades, in particular at the that he received 356 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: in a certain subject. A very loud and boisterous and 357 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: contentious argument ensued his stepfather out of town when the 358 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: boy allegedly waited until midnight to choke cleveland Er to death, 359 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: later and listing the help of two friends to move 360 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: her body into a van and bury it in a 361 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: fire pit at a nearby church. You're hearing our friend 362 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: Ariel rus Chief at ABC News reporting on this is 363 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: it true? A teen boy strangled his mom, goes outside, 364 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: comes back in to find she's not dead. They continued 365 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: to choke her for the next thirty minutes. I Nancy 366 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: Grace this his crime stories. Thank you for being with 367 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: us Nicole parton Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Is 368 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: that fact true that he goes outside, comes back in, 369 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: see she's not dead, and continues to choke her another 370 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: thirty minutes. If that's true, there's no way he can 371 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: argue uh crime of passion, you know, boiling blood or 372 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: anger he had. He did it for thirty minutes. That's correct, Nancy. 373 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: His story is that he thought she was dead after 374 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: strangling her for some time, he went outside to get 375 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: the wheelbarrow. He comes back in to find that she's 376 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: actually still alive, so he continues to strangle her again 377 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: for some thirty minutes until he's certain that she's dead. Well, 378 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: Penny Douglas Farr, there goes, You're a voluntary manslaughter plea 379 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: right down the crapper. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But Nancy, think 380 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: about it. If you're a parent and you find out 381 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: that your child is associopath, what would you do? Most 382 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: parents would be so trauma to us. If I found 383 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: that out, I put him into treatment immediately to try 384 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: to save his life. But I don't have any evidence 385 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: that Gail knew her son had any issues, and I 386 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: don't know that he's a sociopath to Kathleen Murphy, North 387 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: Carolina lawyer before I start slinging around psychiatric words, especially 388 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: while Dr Daniel Bober's listening to me do it and 389 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: mangle his studies. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned about 390 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: this kid? This child was fundamentally unmonitored his whole life 391 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: and unchallenged. And if you look into his Facebook page, 392 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: you'll see a Keck emblem behind his profile picture and 393 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: looking up Kakistan, it was an imaginary world that was 394 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: created on four Chan. Now, my fifteen year old was 395 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: on four champ, and my fifteen year old wasn't a 396 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: right type of environment where hate language is spute, I 397 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: think I would know about it. So what I'm led 398 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: to believe is that this child pretty much did what 399 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: he wanted to do when he wanted to do it, 400 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: and got indeed. So bottom line, what you're telling me is, 401 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: in addition to Republicans and Democrats, there is a Kakistan 402 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: with its very own flag. No, Kakistan is mostly a 403 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: joke sort of. It grew on the internet on four 404 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: chans political message board, and that is a real um. 405 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: Let me just say haven for um internet trolls. It 406 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: has the most taboo comments possible there and um it 407 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: has morphed into a location online where fringe groups joined in, 408 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 1: and it really came out a kick k E K 409 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: really came out of the World of Warcraft's chat system. 410 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: That's where it came from. And then it and have 411 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: wormed its way into our vernacular online as a replacement 412 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: for laugh out Loud l O L. Kick. So what 413 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: do you know about kick, Kathleen Murphy, why it's so 414 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: disturbing This boy was part of kick. I think the 415 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: whole Kakastan movement has been, if you will, adopted by 416 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: the alt right conservative movement, and in fact, the Southern 417 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: Poverty Law Center has it on a hate watch UM monitoring. 418 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: I guess you could say list. And it's concerning to 419 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: me that this is what the fifteen year old was reading, 420 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: looking at, examining, and identifying with yesterday with my twelve 421 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: year olds on you made punk apples with all of 422 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: his friends. And I think when a parent comes in 423 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: to parenthood and they're doing it all by themselves for 424 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: so many years, and she doesn't have the support of 425 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: a male in the home with the sun, it's very difficult. 426 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: It is very difficult. Doesn't her husband live with them? 427 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: That is the stepfather, and I think they were recently 428 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: married with a last few years. The father of this 429 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: child is not in the picture. He lives in another state. Okay, 430 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: I wanna go into this kick K E K with 431 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I'm learning that kick that 432 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: Greg Ramos was involved with was actually an ancient Egyptian god, Okay, 433 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: god with a little g and was often depicted with 434 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: a head of a frog. I don't know that I 435 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: want my son, you know, or my daughter embroiled an 436 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian demigoggs. But it is mostly an innocent cartoon character, 437 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: but it was then turn into a hate Symbolay, so 438 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: tell me what you know about this and why it's 439 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: so telling this boy was part of that. I don't 440 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about it specifically, but I 441 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: can tell you what I do know, which is as 442 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: a child psychiatrist, I see parents bringing their kids into 443 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: my office all the time, and a lot of these 444 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: kids will have online personas that their parents are not 445 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: even aware of. So, you know, you can try to 446 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: be a good parent. You can try to keep track 447 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: of your kids but there is a whole another world 448 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: in cyberspace that they're on. Is you really have to 449 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: work hard. Even law enforcements sometimes can't even find online 450 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: personas that people have, So as a parent, it's very 451 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: challenging to really be on top of all the details 452 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: to know what kids are doing when they go to school, 453 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: and whose smartphones they're using, and whose computers they're on 454 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: when they're not at your home. But I tell parents 455 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: this all the time. It's very important to keep that 456 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: computer in a common area and not when they're in 457 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: their room with the door closed, because they're in another 458 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: world and they shouldn't be there. Well, let me tell 459 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: you this what John David, my beloved, my perfect little 460 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: boy used as his handle angry three g I, a 461 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: angry third writer said that's actually cute. I said to David, 462 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: whre you so angry? And goes but angry Mom and angry, 463 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you angry? He said, because 464 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,479 Speaker 1: some days we don't get the full thirty minutes on 465 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: the playground. Mom, That's why he's angry. I cannot tell 466 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: you how relieved I was to find out why he 467 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: was angry. So I'm always sneaking up on them to 468 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: find out what they're doing online. Every time I sneak 469 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: up with my daughter, she's either looking at yet another 470 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: cat video, which is disturbing in its own own right, 471 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: but some kind of facial something you make at home 472 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: to put on your face. She just turned eleven, okay, 473 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: but in our culture, she's always like already like putting 474 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: all these beauty lotions that she makes out of, all 475 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: sorts of things out of the fridge onto her face. 476 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: Let me just say, and she would kill me if 477 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: if you know the instant tan lotion, so she read 478 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: online you can mix cocoa powder with lotion. She makes 479 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: it with a vino and rubbed it all over herself, okay, 480 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: to get an instant tan. I told her how absolutely 481 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: gorgeous she looked. Of course, Uh okay, I'm digressing. What 482 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm talking about is this kid going online on his 483 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: Facebook all sorts of hate inspired motifs. What does it mean? 484 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I know this. Cops say he 485 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: murdered his mother very calmly, very calculatedly. Listen. Rage rage. 486 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Apparently there was a dispute about March with his mother 487 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: um and in her an argument occurred. It around eleven 488 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: o'clock or so, and around twelve thirty he went into 489 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: her room and woke her up and began trying to 490 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: learn strangle the until he killed and then he had 491 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: to do something with the body. So here he put 492 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: the body in the back of his mother's car, drove 493 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: to Daytona and and Holly Hillary, where he was going 494 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: to dispose of the body, thought better of it, came 495 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: back home that shovel, got everything he needed, drove one 496 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: five miles down the road to the church. Uh doug 497 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: ahol time depositive mother in it, covered it up maybe 498 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: crime scene like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then 499 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: went to school, left school early when she's worth still 500 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: he began to fall apart and then got home and 501 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: made his uh in his own words, a Grammy winning 502 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did 503 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: not really occur. Neighbors tell me that deeply religious woman 504 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: was extremely supportive of her fifteen year old son, Gregory Ramos, 505 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: who is now accused of Stranglinger in their Alexans at home, 506 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: and then listening to two of his friends, Dylan said 507 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: Cleric and Brian Porters to help cover it go was 508 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: a sweetheart. She was very very kind person. When Hecke 509 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: tells me the family moved to this to Burry neighborhood 510 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: five years ago, she says they all got along well 511 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: with the family, and she would drive Ramos and her 512 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: son to University High School. Ramos was also a member 513 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: of the Orange City Please Explorers program. He was always 514 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: polite to me, and they always thanked me and say, 515 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, thank you for the Ryan home. Neighbors tell 516 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: me Clevelander was involved in martial arts and she also 517 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: worked as an architect at a firm in Orlando. She 518 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: started there just three weeks ago. A company tells me 519 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: she was a hard worker and spoke highly of her 520 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: son and step children. They tell me they are heartbroken 521 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: by this loss. Cannot understand it either. You're hearing from 522 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: our friends Greg Wurmer at w f TV TV Channel 523 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: nine and speaking to Gil Clelinger's neighbors, and we learned 524 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: that this boy, Greg Ramos, who now is charged in 525 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: the murder of his mother, was a police explorer in 526 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: the Explorer group. You know, Dr Daniel Bober. It sounds 527 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: like this kid. If if Kathleen Murphy had not gone 528 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: online and found his Facebook and all the implications of that. 529 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: He seems like an outwardly great kid. And it says 530 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: a lot to me that the mother was upset that 531 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: he made a D, which means she cares. Well, you know, 532 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't really think this is about him getting a D. 533 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: Obviously they were much deeper problems. But it just shows how, 534 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, people can sort of compartmentalize their lives and 535 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: be living this completely other life and others aren't aware 536 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: of it. Is it true, Nicole Partner? The sheriff says 537 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: that the boy was quote proud of his work. What 538 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: do you know, Nicole? That's right. As part of his confession, 539 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: Gregory says he was very proud of his work, telling 540 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: the sheriff that he thought he deserved a Grammy for 541 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: his He also stated that when he made that I'm 542 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: on one call, he used what he had learned in 543 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: criminal justice classes to give quote the flavor of truth 544 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: to his lies. Penny Douglas Firm, veteran defense attorney. What 545 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: do you do with that? That he used what he 546 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: learned in his criminal justice classes to quote give a 547 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: flavor of truth to his lies. That's a typical thing 548 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: of sociopaths. I hate to say that, but that's typical 549 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: of what they do. They'll take a little bit of 550 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: truth and twisted. And that's the sad thing I've litigated 551 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: against sociopaths. It is a nightmare. And if you know, 552 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: the child of sociopathy needs to be in treatment immediately. 553 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: I don't know what signs of mother miss but this 554 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: child should have been in treatment long ago. Oh, you're 555 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: back on the mom. You're back on the mom. The 556 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: signs the mother? Men? You know what Joe's goot Morgan, 557 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott, Morgan, you're the forensics expert. Explain how this 558 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: attack went down. I don't think the mom missed anything. 559 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: This kid is super intelligent. Yeah, he's Uh, he's apparently 560 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: waited until until the wee hours. Maybe she's gone to bed. 561 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: Remember we heard that she had contacted the stepfather after 562 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: she had confronted this kid. He's stewing over this thing, 563 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: sitting around thinking about it. Wait until she goes to bed. Now. 564 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 1: One of the articles that I read, Nancy stated that 565 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: he not just strangled her, he throttled her. And if 566 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: the listeners will essentially take their hands and put their 567 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: thumbs together, uh, lame flat and formed kind of a 568 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: you with your hands. That gives you an idea of 569 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: what the formation of his hands would look like, the 570 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: attitude that would be in as he wrapped him around 571 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: this mother's neck and then began to squeeze. I find 572 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: it interesting that they talked about how long this took, 573 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: said it took up to thirty minutes. Uh. A lot 574 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 1: of this is dependent upon hand pressure, how much hand 575 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: pressure he can exert over her throat. There will be 576 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: a struggle at the scene. You noted quite accurately a 577 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: few months ago. He's gotten marks on his face when 578 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: they exhumed her body out of this fire pit. Uh. 579 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: They're going to do at the morgue. They will do 580 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: nail scrapings on her and you'll be able to find 581 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: probably his skin beneath her fingernails. Uh. And Uh, probably 582 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: much of his DNA on her if it hasn't been 583 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: completely disrupted. Very very troubling, very troubling. Yeah, we keep 584 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: throwing around the term sociopath. Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists. 585 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: Sociopath does not mean insanity. We do know police say 586 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: he had no remorse, that he is super intelligent, and 587 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,760 Speaker 1: not only that that he was quote proud of his work. 588 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: What does that mean? And what is a sociopath? That 589 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: is correct, Nancy, sociopath does not equal the insanity defense. 590 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: Sociopaths don't know the difference, do not necessarily know the 591 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: difference between right and wrong. Even though that was a 592 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: double negative. The point is is that you could be 593 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: a sociopath. You can plan, you can organize, you can 594 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: attempt to conceal um, you can lie, you can manipulate, 595 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: And so just because you're a sociopath doesn't absolve you 596 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: of responsibility. Uh. And in fact, it makes you quite 597 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: adept at committing crime and trying to conceal it. Kathleen Murphy, 598 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: North Carolina family lawyer, will he be charged as an adult? 599 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: I believe he will be charged as an adult, as 600 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: he rightly should be charged as an adult. This is 601 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: an intentional throttle, as Joe said, murder of his mother 602 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: planned with four thoughts. Well, we also know, uh to 603 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: Joe's got Morgan, speaking of forensics, that the mom was 604 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: first attack in her own bed after midnight, so clearly 605 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: he waited for her to be asleep. This teen boy 606 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: spent over half an hour throttling his mom dad with 607 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: his bare hands as she fought for her life. This 608 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: was all over a d as in delta gray and 609 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: and unfolded in court where this boy was denied bail 610 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: and remains in custody. There are the seven Deadly's the 611 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: d f as designated felonies for which a minor will 612 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: be quote bound over to adult felony court. Murder is 613 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: one of them, along with rape, aggravated sodomy, armed robbery, arson. 614 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: Let's see what are the other two. Any lawyer on 615 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: the panel can tell me the other two. But long 616 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: story short, Penny, Douglas fur he's gonna be bound over. 617 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: He will be tried as an adult. I can guarantee 618 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: you that, Nancy. The only thing that fifteen Big fifteen 619 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: will help him with is he will not get the 620 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: death penalty, which he could get in Florida for this 621 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,439 Speaker 1: type of crime. But I do not think they'll give 622 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: the death penalty to a fifteen year old. Well, they 623 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: can't under the Supreme Court ruling about four or five 624 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: years ago, no one under the age of eighteen in 625 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: our country can be a sentence to death penalty. But 626 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: explain the bind over process, Penny. How will it be 627 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: determined if he will be treated as an adult. Well, 628 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: as you just said, it's one of the seven deadly sins, 629 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: so that will definitely send him over. And it's murder. 630 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: And not only is it murder, but he went back 631 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: and found her alive and then killed her again, so 632 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: he thought about it and went back and did it again. 633 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: So absolutely he's dangerous. He will be moved over to 634 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 1: adult court to be tried as an adult for murder, 635 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: and he will most likely get life in prison. I 636 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,760 Speaker 1: thought of the seven deadlies. They are agassault, arson, aggravated battery, 637 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,479 Speaker 1: which means you lose a limb or a body part 638 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: or your eye, your arm during an agg assault, robbery, 639 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: armed robbery, um, kidnap, murder, Do I do I get seven? Jackie? Okay? 640 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: I got all seven. Those are the typical designated felonies 641 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,280 Speaker 1: for which a child or eighteen will be bound, owned 642 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: over and treated as an adult. Police in this case 643 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 1: say that Gregory Logan Ramos is one of the top 644 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: three sociopaths they have ever encountered. They are assuming the 645 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: worst for my son. So they went in there, they 646 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: all got out, but he didn't come out, so they 647 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: say that he was where they left he went to 648 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: the bar to get the drinks for everybody, and that's 649 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: when they heard the shocks ringing out and oh, panic, 650 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: have you gone to the hospital. We did call the hospital. 651 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: They don't. They're going through their crazy triage right now, 652 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: so they don't have any names or anybody that they 653 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: They don't want to talk yet. So I haven't been 654 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: over there, asked my next step is to go there yet? 655 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: What did they tell you here? They just take your 656 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: information and tell you to wait. How is that a 657 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 1: A dad? Like I said, I'm pretty emotional. Tell me 658 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: about Cogan rooms I do pretty's personality awesome. Um, we're 659 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,479 Speaker 1: very Christian raised family and everything. That's he's a very 660 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: good kid. You know, he's very good in school. He's 661 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: very sports oriented. Uh was going into the army. So 662 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to wait and see at the ending 663 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: of the situation. You're answer that, please answer, that's okay. 664 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: I'm like, if you get word I want. If he's 665 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: going to the arm You talked about these most shootings 666 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: that you've been seeing. We've ever talked a lot about things. Yeah, 667 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: that's why I'm very Uh, I'm curious right now. And 668 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, raising him the way, we raised some white 669 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: house and if you picked up a cell phone, anybody's 670 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: cell phone, and he was called home. So I don't 671 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: understand where where we're at this point. I'm actually I'm very, 672 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: very in shock. At this hour, we now know the 673 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: list of victims that were massacred in the Borderline shooting. 674 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: You were just hearing Jason Kaufman, who we heard those 675 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: heart broken words yesterday. He was desperately searching for his son, Cody, 676 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 1: who had been inside the Borderline bar. Now we know 677 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: that Cody is one of the casualties. From Coeds to 678 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 1: law enforcement to military, twelve gunned down. As we look 679 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: for answers today to Alan Duke joining me from l A, 680 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: what do we know about the shooter? We have his 681 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: last Facebook post and it is like none other than 682 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: any we've ever seen from someone who commits a massacre. 683 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: And what did he mean by this? I think it's 684 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: going to take a psychologist to tell us. He says, quote, 685 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 1: I hope people call me insane, and then he posted 686 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: laughing emojis. Wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah, 687 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm insane. But the only thing you p people do 688 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: after the shootings is quote hopes and prayers or quote 689 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: keep your keep you in my thoughts every time and 690 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: wonder why these keep happening. That's what Ian David Long 691 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: wrote just before killing twelve people. You know what that 692 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: that It just turns my stomach over to hear the 693 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: shooters last fakes book post. We now know who was 694 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: massacred in the Borderline bar shooting. First of all, Cody Kaufman. 695 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: You were just hearing his father, Jason, wondering was he alive? 696 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: Was he dead? His friends came out, but they couldn't 697 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: find Cody. The distraught dad rushed to the bar after 698 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: hearing these of the shooting, and calls to his son's 699 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: cell phone were not answered. Jason had been using a 700 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: tracking app on his son's phone, and it indicated the 701 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: cell phone was still on. Of course. Sergeant Ron Helis, 702 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: Venturi County Sheriff, Sergeant Ron Heelis leaves behind a son 703 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,840 Speaker 1: and I'm wife. He was one of the first on 704 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: the scene at the shooting. He raced in to save others. 705 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: The last thing he said to his wife, Hannah, I 706 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: gotta go. I love you, I gotta go on a call. 707 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: Elena Houseley, the niece of actress Tamara Moray Houseley and 708 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: her husband Adam also died. Her sweet mate at Pepperdine 709 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: earlier posted photos on Twitter saying that she was missing. 710 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: Her Apple watch and phone appeared still show her location 711 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: as in the bar. She was there with friends. All 712 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: of them were accounted for. Justin meek Idd is one 713 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: of the victims by his family. He was a twenty 714 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: three year old recent grad of California Lutheran University, and 715 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: he worked there and organized the college night. He is 716 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: believed to have heroically saved lives as the shooting unfolded, 717 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: according to the university president Chris Kimball. Sean Adler, forty eight, 718 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: was a bouncer at Borderline Bar and Grill. He was 719 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,400 Speaker 1: a wrestling coach who had just opened a coffee shop 720 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: his dream in the local area. Noel Sparks, a twenty 721 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: one year old student at Moore Park, was also confirmed 722 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: dead this United Methodist Church in Westlake Village. She was 723 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: a member of their posting condolences friends breaking down in 724 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: tears as they desperately searched for her after the shooting. 725 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: Blake Dingman, just twenty one, identified by his girlfriend as 726 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,319 Speaker 1: a victim. My sweet Blake, my heart is hurting more 727 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: than words can say, she writes. Telemachus or Fanos, Borderline employee, 728 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: confirmed dead. An Eagle scout who served in the Navy. 729 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: He survived Route ninety one Harvest festival shooting in Las 730 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: Vegas where fifty eight died, and now he's dead. Christina 731 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: Kelley Morris set was a cashier at Borderline. She died 732 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: in the shooting. She went to Simi Valley High School 733 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: and she's absolute beautiful with a big smile and cowboy 734 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: boots just like mine. Danielle Manrique thirty three and Marine 735 00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: Vett spent his whole life helping veterans, readjust his civilian life, 736 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: and just got a position with Team r WB. We're 737 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: looking at so many of the victims and so many 738 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: hearts are broken. To Alan Deep joining us from l 739 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: A Alan, It's almost incomprehensible that some of these victims 740 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,759 Speaker 1: had survived the shooting at the Mandalais. That is one 741 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,320 Speaker 1: of the I'm not even gonna say irony. That doesn't 742 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,520 Speaker 1: do it justice. These were country music fans and they 743 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: were there at the Root ninety one festival, which in 744 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,280 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, where so many people were injured and killed 745 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,600 Speaker 1: and for them to be in this shooting, what kind 746 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 1: of odds are that? Well, unfortunately, the odds apparently are 747 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: pretty good that you're going to be involved in some 748 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: kind of a shooting. It's crazy, joining me, Wendy Patcheck, 749 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: California Prosecutor. When you look at this guy's last post, 750 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: it's almost as if he knew what was going to 751 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: unfold after you know, Nancy, it is, and it's almost 752 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: as if, and I find this this very interesting, he 753 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,439 Speaker 1: set himself up for a mental defense that he never 754 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: had the opportunity to avail himself of because apparently he 755 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 1: committed suicide. It's almost as if he was using his 756 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: scenario as a warning to others that unless you give 757 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: mental health victims the treatment they need, if they can 758 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 1: overcome the stigma and admit they have a problem, we're 759 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: going to see even more of these. But the sinister 760 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: nature of it, Nancy, that is just chilling, and would 761 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: have been in front of a jury were this man 762 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: to have survived, Well, he may have mocked it, and 763 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: he may have made light of it, but nothing is 764 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,719 Speaker 1: stronger than the power of prayer, and that is what 765 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: we are doing today for the victims and their families. 766 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: Twelve dead at the Borderline bar. Nancy Grace Crime Stories 767 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye