1 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mo've 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: never told you. You might have seen this story in 3 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: the news lately. During one of her recent concerts, Cardi 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: B's X interrupted the whole thing to beg her to 5 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: come back to him. They had recently split over allegations 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: that he was cheating on Cardi B. And he had 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: this card of roses that spelled out take me back Cardi. 8 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: It was a whole thing. She did not look impressed. 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: Some news outlets do speculate that it was a big 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: PR stunt, but Cardi insist she was surprised by his appearance, 11 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: and as of recording this, I haven't heard anything differently 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: in either case, though. This is something I have seen before, 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: and I have experienced myself. Not the sold concert thing, 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: but a woman working and a man publicly interrupting to 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: demand your attention to emotionally manipulate you. There was a 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: guy once who wanted to date me, and he showed 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 1: up at my office with flowers with no warning, and 18 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: he expected that I would think this was a very 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: romantic thing, but instead I was very annoyed and I 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: had to take time out of my day. I had 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: to let him down easy, and then I had to 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: explain to my co workers who were expecting this sweet 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: story what had gone down, and they clearly were like, 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: oh no, it's so sweet, you should give him a chance. 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: And this is why I do not want a surprise 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: public engagement. Not that I ever plan on getting married, 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: but I have thought about this. There's a time and 28 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: a place for an apology, and it's not sprung on 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: someone in public while they're working. One fan of Cardi 30 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: B's wrote on Twitter, tonight should have been about Cardi 31 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: headlining the Rolling Loud Festival. Instead, it's all about out 32 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: what this dude did and how she reacted. No convos 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: about her performance. In fact, it's stealing thunder even from 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: other performers. Tonight, that's selfish, a f that's manipulation. Another wrote, 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: this public campaign is actually classic harassment. Women are always 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: expected to do the emotional labor of men, no matter 37 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: how badly they are betrayed or hurt. It also kind 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: of reminds me of that Jason Drulo song what You Say, 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: which is yeah, a throwback, but he's like, look, I 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: know I should have treated you better, I shouldn't have 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: cheated on you. But we've belonged together. So sorry you 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: caught me, but let's just move past this already. Come on. 43 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: And I don't know that's my interpretation of the song. 44 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps you have a different interpretation. As we discussed in 45 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: our stocking episode, I think a lot of movies have 46 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: pushed this narrative that something like this is romantic. It's 47 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: not worth noting. Cardi b has asked for people to 48 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: stop bashing offset, but I would say that the whole 49 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: insta it is a wonderful example of men and not 50 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: handling women's sexual rejection in the best way. And in 51 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: this classic episode, we take a look at why that 52 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: might be. Please enjoy. Welcome to stuff Mom Never told 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: you from how Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Christen and I'm Caroline, and today 55 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk like men. We're gonna talk about rejection, 56 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about how a mind dating 57 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: offers documentary proof the guys fell and students you have 58 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: a hard time getting turned down sometimes. Heck, yeah, the 59 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: Internet is sort of a scary landscape. It is. And 60 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: should we go ahead and offer a disclaimer that, yes, 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: some women have a hard time with rejection sometimes as well, 62 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: and overreact getting turned down, especially if you're being sexually 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: turned down. Well, rejection is hard. Rejejection is the worst. 64 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: Rejecting is pretty bad too, But I mean it can 65 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: rejection of any kind can really sting, and and that 66 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: is not a gendered thing. It's a fact of life. 67 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: Rejection is the worst, and we hate it, we all 68 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: struggle with it. But there are some things that put 69 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: certain people at risk of being a bigger jerk than 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: other people when it comes to rejection. Yeah, I mean 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 1: this is a particular pattern when it comes to straight 72 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: dating and especially straight online dating, although it is more 73 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: of a thing of straight guys dating, I should say, 74 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: because the recipient of the offer, whether it's to you know, 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: have a drink bought or a date or sex or whatever, Um, 76 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: she can be of any orientation. Whatsoe her. It's really 77 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: more you know, straight guys processing being turned down and 78 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: what God is thinking about this whole thing was an 79 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: incident that happened on the internet in late August. Yeah. 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: I was actually on vacation when this happened, and I 81 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: just remember seeing, um, my internet, my personal internet, blowing 82 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: up over it. So BuzzFeed writer and comedian Grace Spellman 83 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: got a series of tweets and Facebook messages from this guy, 84 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: Ben Shane, who is a former Harry Potter podcast host 85 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: and who's also the co founder of the website theem Inspire. 86 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: He was clearly trying to charm Miss Spellman, and uh 87 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: he I guess it's an understatement to say that he 88 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: didn't really charm her. Yeah, the whole incident was kind 89 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: of bizarre because they had friended each other on Facebook 90 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: nine years ago when Shane was hosting this pot cast 91 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: called muggle Cast, which was super popular um and Spellman 92 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: was a fan, so they became friends on Facebook, but 93 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: they were weren't in contact whatsoever. So this time in 94 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: August was the first time he was messaging her ever, 95 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: so totally out of the blue, and at first he 96 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: was full of praise. So in one Facebook message he 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: sent her, he said, you do a remarkable job of 98 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: making your quirky personality shine through online. It's hyperactively beautiful. 99 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: And to to this, Spellman says, thanks, no, thanks, I've 100 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: good a boyfriend, wish you well turn him down politely. Well, 101 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: he was not too happy about that. No, No, that 102 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: would be also another understatement. He responded with a slew 103 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: of of not so nice messages, including just because you 104 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: work at BuzzFeed doesn't mean you're good. Good luck find 105 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: meaning and all of that garbage you call content. And 106 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: he also, I mean, he got more personal than that, 107 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: and he just wouldn't stop. He was contacting her on 108 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: all sorts of platforms just to tell her that she 109 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: was the worst. Basically, yeah, I mean, because it really 110 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: exploded when she publicized the private, in sensant private messaging 111 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: that he had been doing. And then of course that 112 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: only fanned his his outrage, and at one point he 113 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: wrote her an email saying, I was so angry and offended. 114 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: I wrote a draft putting you in your place, but 115 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: then he decided against it and wrote her this email instead. 116 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: But what was interesting to see was this White Knight 117 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: turn that it took when he issued a press statement 118 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: touting his fem Inspire cred saying I've done more for 119 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: the cause of advancing women's rights than any of the 120 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: people who are criticizing me. Um. Because this is after 121 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: Grace Spellman publicized this incident to her large Twitter fall 122 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: allowing and people kind of came out of the woodwork 123 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: saying either what a cree But also this has happened 124 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: to me before, and also yeah, this is why he 125 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, I left them Inspire or why he is 126 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: not on our podcast anymore, etcetera. It does seem to 127 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: be fair that Ben Shane has some personal issues going 128 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: on that have led him to separate from other people 129 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: in his professional life, and that perhaps that behavior is 130 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: why he's no longer with the certain ventures that he 131 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: had been with before and what possibly led him to 132 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: be like incredibly creepy with Grace Spellman. But that about face, 133 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: going from you're brilliant and hyperactively beautiful and charming to 134 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: you're no good at all. All of your work is garbage. 135 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that kind of about face is something that 136 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: we see happen so often anecdotally but now documented via 137 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: online dating. And this whole incident prompted Jessica roy Over 138 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: at the Cut to relate this to the broader pattern 139 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: of straight guys, in particular fellas we love you, but 140 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: straight guys not wanting to take no for an answer. 141 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: She writes, the whole exchange is pretty emblematic of the 142 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: inherent difficulties of rejecting men both online and off. Women 143 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: are frequently made to tow a line between being polite 144 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: enough not to set off a suitor, but not so 145 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: polite that their manners are interpreted as flirting. And when 146 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: I read that, I could immediately relate to what she 147 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: was saying. It totally resonated. Yeah, and it resonated with Spellman. 148 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: She agreed. She says, you can't win in these types 149 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: of situations. Even if you're polite in your rejection, they'll 150 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: demand that you tell them why you did it. It's 151 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: just a mixture of entitlement and the fragility of ego, which, 152 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: by the way, as we will get into it a 153 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: little bit, is backed up by research. Spellman speaks the truth. 154 00:09:57,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, because you don't know how 155 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: they're going to handle it, you don't know if you 156 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: should be afraid or not. So the result is this 157 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: catch twenty two that comes up often of guys asking 158 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: for women to be straightforward and honest with them, which 159 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: is totally fair. That is a very reasonable request. Who 160 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: wants to be let on? Answer nobody unless you are 161 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: just a sucker for pain. But if she is in 162 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: fact straightforward, you can then be punished for being too straightforward. 163 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: Then you're a jerk or a word that we you know, 164 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: can't really say on the podcast. Um, and we should acknowledge. Yeah, 165 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: I mean some women do lead guys on. Some women 166 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: do put men in holding patterns of you know, wuying 167 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: their companionship but not wanting to take it to a 168 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: relationship level of sort of like I'm gonna, you know, 169 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: float on you for a little bit until I find 170 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: a guy that I do want to date. That does happen, 171 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: and that's not an okay pattern either. Um. But when 172 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: I made a YouTube video about this whole thing, the 173 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: comments were split between guys saying it would just be straightforward, 174 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: be honest, and girls saying when I was honest and straightforward. 175 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: I got so much blowback from it, and sprinkled in 176 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: that too, a lot of anecdotes from girls dealing with 177 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: guys not taking no for an answer in the sense 178 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: of if you say you're just not interested, that's really 179 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: not sufficient. They want to know why. They want an explanation, 180 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: and typically the only explanations that shut it down completely 181 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: are I have a boyfriend, or you hold up your 182 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: hand to show off an engagement ring or a wedding band, 183 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: and that will usually get them to stop. Which is 184 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: interesting how the primary way to get a guy to 185 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: take no for an answer is not for you to 186 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: say no, but rather for you to present another man 187 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: next to you, either literally or figuratively. Well, it seems 188 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: that that's the only way to put a stop to 189 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: a sense of entitlement to you, access to you. I UM. 190 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: I had an awkward moment in college when a friend 191 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: of mine told me that he had feelings for me, 192 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: and when I responded compassionate, I mean he we've been 193 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: friends for years. When I responded very you know, compassionately 194 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: that like, I understand, and I'm really sorry, but I 195 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: don't feel the same way. Like I love you as 196 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: a friend. We've been friends for so long. I just 197 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: am not on that same romantic wavelength. He got very upset. 198 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: I got very upset. We talked, and we I thought 199 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: made up, but then when he offered to like take 200 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: me out to dinner for tak us to let things 201 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: blow over, I was like, oh, good, like things are 202 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: back on track. It was actually a ruse because he 203 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: had taken me out for echoes to demand an explanation 204 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: of why I would not date him, saying that everything 205 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: we do and we hang out together is the same 206 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: thing that couples would do, or that a girlfriend and 207 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: a boyfriend would do, So why can't you just be 208 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: my girlfriend? And it made me really sad because it 209 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: made me realize that he must be feeling really powerless 210 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: in our friendship if he's telling me that I need 211 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: to change the way that I feel and change but 212 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing to come over to his viewpoint of things. 213 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: The old Taco Ruse, Karen Taco Ruse. And the thing is, 214 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: so many of us have stories like that of having 215 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: to deal with what happens when when someone catches feelings. 216 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: But this whole conversation, especially when we look at in 217 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: the context of online dating and more of the hook 218 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 1: up culture side of things, it's not so much catching feelings. 219 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: It's more wanting to catch bodies. And if you cannot 220 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: catch that body, then you will send a series a 221 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: very mean text messages or okay Cupid messages that completely, 222 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: you know, turn your attraction on a dime, and suddenly 223 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: this woman is just the worst thing ever. So weird 224 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: to look at these messages because there are plenty of 225 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: blogs and things like that that now post them for 226 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: all to see and it's so weird to see like, Hey, 227 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: you're so hot, I want to date you. I'm being 228 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: very euphemistic with what I say, um, and the minute 229 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: the woman's like no thanks, so she doesn't respond, the 230 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: guy goes immediately to well, you're ugly and fat anyway, 231 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: and I don't want to date you, and nobody else 232 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: wants to date you, quote unquote date you, so just 233 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: never contact me again. It's like, whoa were you just 234 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: having a completely different conversation than I was. Wait, I 235 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: thought women were the crazy ones. Caroline, what happened? Yeah. 236 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: The fact that the Daily Dot published guidelines for dudes 237 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: getting rejected on tender that included quote once someone makes 238 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: it clear they're not interested in talking to you, stop 239 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: talking to them kind of points out that this is 240 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: something that happens now. I'm sure that your patients, if 241 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: you are a straight dude in these kinds of online dating, 242 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: scenarios can wear very thin because it is more of 243 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: a woman's game, a street woman's game with online dating, 244 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: because of the whole narratives, the broader social narratives as 245 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: men as the pursuers, women as the recipients of a 246 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: gentleman's attention, Um, and a lot of times, guys, do 247 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: you have to deal with a lot of rejection, which 248 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about more in just a minute. Um. 249 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: But as Alexandra tweetings by philippe Instagram account illustrates repeatedly, 250 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: the reactions to this online dating rejection are so severe, 251 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: so many times. Yeah, and I mean yeah, that might 252 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: come out of a place of anger or online anonymity, 253 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: making it easier to be like, well, screw you, lady, 254 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: but that doesn't make it any less horrifying. Uh. Tweeting 255 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: writing in Miss magazine says that since creating by Philip, 256 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: which of course is a takeoff of by Felicia from Friday, Uh, 257 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: it has become a parent that a standard trajectory of 258 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: discourse with men online is this man hits on woman, 259 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: woman rejects or ignores him. Man lashes out with insults 260 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: or even threats. Now we should say that this Instagram 261 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: account is one of those social media accounts that displays 262 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: in full glory, uh, the interactions online between men and 263 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: women on dating sites tender, okay, cepid, what what have you? Um, 264 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: basically showing screen grabs of these text or email conversations 265 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: that more often than not are completely one thousand percent gross. Yeah, 266 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: they don't. They don't end well by Philip, they don't 267 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: end well at all. There was even one where a 268 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: guy was sending messages to a girl young enough to 269 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: be his daughter, and she was like, Hey, I am fourteen, 270 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: you have to leave me alone. Granted sub question what 271 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: side is she on that she's fourteen? Anyway, He was like, oh, well, 272 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: my bad, like, no disrespect, have a nice day. He 273 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: immediately comes back and it's like, well, you're going to 274 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: be fat when you grow up anyway, So just yeah, 275 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: like what what, why do you need to do that? 276 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't know? What's people the power grab um yeah 277 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: tweet and writes that she started it to one commiserate 278 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: with other women who are dealing with this so commonly too, 279 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: to show guys what it's like to be a woman online. 280 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,639 Speaker 1: We have talked a lot on the podcast before about 281 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: online harassment targeted at women, and three to quote expose 282 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: the problematic entitlement some men feel they need to exert 283 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: over women in general, and she did it. Also note 284 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: in an interview with BuzzFeed that, yeah, online dating is 285 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: often wretched four guys because they do have to often 286 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: message a lot of women you got you gotta swipe 287 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: a lot to get a match, and even if you 288 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: do get a match, it doesn't guarantee that that attraction 289 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: is going to be sustained. Well, I mean, I think 290 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: I think it's wretched for for everyone involved, because there's 291 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: plenty of anecdotes about guys setting up accounts pretending to 292 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: be women and men. There was one guy interviewed in 293 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: one of these articles we read where he was like, 294 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: I set up five women and five men as fake accounts, 295 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: and before I could even log back off, the women 296 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: had already received hundreds of messages, many of them gross, 297 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: many of them going straight to sex and like freaky 298 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: scary stuff at that, and like most of the men 299 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: had just received absolutely nothing. And so he's like, I 300 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: can see how it's demoralizing for everyone involved, because he's like, 301 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: some guy might have just emailed one of these women 302 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: to say hi, and if I responded as the woman 303 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: being like hey, what's up, where do you live or whatever, 304 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: it immediately was like super sexual, super here's what I'm 305 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: gonna do to you, And so yeah, it it immediately 306 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: went to like I want to come over and read 307 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: Judith butler together, drink some tea, yeah, and do you 308 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: have cats? Yeah? The more the merrier. Let's put on 309 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: our stretchy pants and let's read poetry. Ironically though this 310 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: is a little bit of a tangent, but ironically, Tinder 311 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: like the people who run Tinder had a bi Philip 312 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: level meltdown in response to this vanity Fair piece that 313 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: came out a couple of months ago on Tinder hookups, 314 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: this whole tender hookup culture by Nancy Joe Sales, who 315 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: did not paint Tinder usage, I should say in the 316 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: most positive light. It was made a lot of guys 317 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: who use it come off very smarmie, and it was a, 318 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, one of those bigger pieces about oh, what 319 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: are we doing with this hookup culture and ruining everything? 320 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: And women are just being dragged along in the mud essentially. 321 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: And in response though to this very buzzed about vanity Fair, 322 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: Peace Tender spouted out thirty tweets in quick succession, including 323 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: one that said quote, if you want to try to 324 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: terrace down with one sided journalism, well that's your prerogative, 325 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: which is sort of reminiscent of the kinds of bi 326 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: Fillip style post rejection messages that women get, I mean, 327 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: in folks, if you haven't seen this, I do recommend 328 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: you google it because it's incredible to watch this, this 329 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: Tender by Phillip melt Down happening on the internet. It 330 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: almost felt unreal. Well, okay, then maybe you can explain. 331 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: There have been plenty of things online or in the 332 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: media about how, like, you know, apps like Tinder or 333 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: signify the end of times that basically like no one's 334 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: ever going to fall in love and have families again 335 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: because Tender is ruining life for everyone. What was it 336 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: about Nancy jos Sales? Do you know that that caused 337 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: Tender to get so upset? As I say tender like 338 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: it's a person, but the Tender Twitter person to get 339 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: so upset because she painted because Tinder was positioned in 340 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: her peace as instigating a post dating apocalypse essentially, and 341 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, talks a lot about how these guys that 342 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: she interviewed in her story manipulate Tinder to basically get 343 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: as much sex as they want and treat women in 344 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: real life very very poorly. And it's just that insta 345 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: sex hookup culture that is even more troubling. It seems 346 00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: like to Sales than the analog hookup culture, where I mean, 347 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: at least you're meeting at a party and one of 348 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: the things tender, or at least this person tweeting on 349 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: behalf of Tinder was most upset about was how Sales 350 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: did not interview anyone with Tinder for the piece, to 351 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: which Nancy Joe Sales on Twitter got the last word 352 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: in this whole tender Twitter meltdown, saying, ha ha, this 353 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: piece wasn't even about Tinder at all. Oh so you're 354 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: saying that, um, miss Vanity Fair hurt Mr tinders feelings 355 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: and Mr Tinder just lashed out and was like, Miss 356 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, you can go you aren't my type anyway. Yeah, 357 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: I mean it really, it really was like that. And listeners, 358 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: we will be posting a link to that Vanity Fair 359 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: piece over at stuff I've never told you dot com 360 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: on the podcast post for this, So if you haven't 361 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: read it, I highly recommend you go check it out. 362 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: If you are familiar with it, um and want us 363 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: to do a podcast, look at it. Just let us 364 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: know because it's I mean, there's a lot to talk 365 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: about in there. I love these weird personified, anthropomorphized versions 366 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: of websites of dating as Yeah, because I feel like Tinder, 367 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: who's obviously the hipper millennial on a smartphone, tweeting things 368 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: where has e harmonies at home on just on like 369 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: a rotary telephone calling you up, wondering why you're not answering. Oh, 370 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna get so many letters from the harmony users. 371 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: And this is all it's all funny to joke about, 372 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: you know, if you if you can't laugh, you'll cry, 373 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But there is a darker, more 374 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: serious side to all of this, because it's not as 375 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: if this behavior and this language and these reactions are 376 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: limited to the Internet, to the online world. This is 377 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: very real stuff. This, this aggression, this masculinity threat, all 378 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: of this is very real. And the website when Women 379 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: Refuge is around Tumbler highlights that, Yeah, I mean this 380 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: Tumbler is essentially a collection of stories and graphic images 381 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: trigger warning of women who have endured domestic abuse from 382 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: either partners or strangers, you know, especially in context of 383 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: rejecting them in one way or another. And and it 384 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: really does get to that quote problematic entitlement that tweet 385 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: and says helped inspire by Philip I. Mean and and too. 386 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: That kind of darker, darker, darker entitlement was also echoed 387 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: in the manifesto written by Elliott Roger, who murdered women 388 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: partially because he was so angry that he could not 389 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: sleep with them, he did not have access to them 390 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: in the way he felt like he should. Yeah, he 391 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: felt that women should be afraid of him. Well, that 392 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: women should be afraid of men and should be submissive 393 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: to them completely. And obviously that is a worst case 394 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: scenario kind of example. But ultimately it is all connected 395 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: because there are these common threads that run through that. 396 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about those threads and the 397 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: academic research that's been done on them when we come 398 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: right back from a quick bread. So we don't have 399 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: just Instagram accounts and anecdotes from our dating lives to 400 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: base this whole conversation on. There has actually been a 401 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: ton of research on romantic and sexual rejection and how 402 00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: that often is processed through gendered lenses, says, as most 403 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: things are eventually processed through. Yeah, there was study called 404 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: the Prevalence and Nature of Unrequited Love, and it pointed 405 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: out that unrequited love and crushing on people was four 406 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: times more frequent than quote unquote equal love, that deep, actual, 407 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: real relationship where two people know that they're in a 408 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: relationship with each other and love each other. Um. Researchers 409 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: said that unrequited love was not a good simulation of 410 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: true romantic love, but an inferior approximation of that ideal. 411 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: And then it's more common among people with an anxious 412 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: or ambivalent attachment style. And this is to establish the 413 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: fact that rejection is gonna happen. I mean, this is 414 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: more the rule than the exception. Love and relationships are 415 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: the exception. Otherwise, I mean, how would we really get 416 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: on with our lives that we didn't have rejection happening 417 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, But in calling it not a 418 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: good simulation of true romantic love, they're sort of explaining 419 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: the fact that it's so much more common than that 420 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: equal love, and it can be so much more intense, 421 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: it can stir up all of these feelings of inferiority 422 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: and anxiety, And so I think that it's absolutely important 423 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: to talk about that in relation to online dating, where 424 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: so much rejection happens. Yeah, And these similar kinds of 425 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: studies have found that men do tend to experience romantic 426 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: rejection more often than women, quite possibly because again of 427 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: this heteronormative role social role as the pursuer, men are 428 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: more expected to put themselves in positions where they could 429 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: be rejected compared to women. But the thing is, while 430 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: rejection is no fun, getting rejected is no fun. Of course, 431 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: studies have also shown that it's also painful to do 432 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: the rejecting, and this goes back to a study published 433 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked 434 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: at both sides of unrequited love, of the person who 435 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: was having to process receiving it in the person who's 436 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: dolling it out, and the authors wrote that rejectors depicted 437 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: themselves as morally innocent but still felt guilty about hurting someone, 438 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: But they also depicted the would be lovers persistent efforts 439 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: as intrusive and annoying, and in an article about this 440 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, one of the study authors, 441 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: Roy Baumeister, described this experience of doing the romantic rejection 442 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: as agony, and also that if you're looking at rejecting 443 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: versus being rejected, that it's actually the people doing the 444 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: rejecting who remember that incident more than the people who 445 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: were rejected. I mean, obviously that's pens and then other 446 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: factors go into that, but it seems like that strange 447 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: experience of having to that strange and painful experience of 448 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: having to tell someone who's being very persistent that you're no, 449 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: I'm not interested, it really kind of sticks with you. 450 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to read about how people on 451 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: either side of this experience process it differently in order 452 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: to sort of justify their own behavior. And there's also 453 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: to this issue of rejectors, especially if there's an established 454 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: relationship between two people. This is probably happening more in 455 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: real life versus online dating um, but rejectors being expected 456 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: to not only do the rejecting but also comfort the 457 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: other person's wounded pride. But speaking of online dating, though, 458 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: that can explain this common demand for an explanation, because 459 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: that is a source of comfort. That's their closure. Tell 460 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: me why I'm not good enough? The old Taco rous, 461 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: the taco ruse. Caroline Bombaster also found that men are 462 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: more likely than women to fall in love with someone 463 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: who does not return their feelings. And that's also in 464 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: another like real life as opposed to online thing um 465 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: and echoing that is Philip Shaver at the University of 466 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: California Davis, who said that the people who are particularly 467 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: prone to falling in love with people who will reject 468 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: them are people who are so anxious about being loved 469 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: that they drive their partners away through being too clingy. 470 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: That anxious attachment, that anxious attachment that the person who's 471 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: doing the attaching sees us normal and just love me. 472 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: I just want to be loved, and the rejector feels like, God, 473 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: you're being a creep. I've been that person. I've been 474 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: that creep before, Caroline. I will own that and that 475 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: creep though issue is something that we could do an 476 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: entire podcast on because I feel like, especially in today's 477 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: um dating landscape, it seems like and also from what 478 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: I've heard from guys directly, that being rejected also comes 479 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: sometimes with this underlying panic of of yeah, Okay, I'm 480 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: not going to be able to, you know, ever get 481 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: with that person, but also, oh my god, does she 482 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: think I'm a creep? Being labeled as a creep, I 483 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: feel like, is so so so triggering, you know, of 484 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: anxiety and panic for for dudes, because that's almost the 485 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: worst thing that you can be called well yeah. And 486 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: it's also the frustration and fear of being misunderstood, like no, no, no, 487 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: I was just trying to compliment you and ask you 488 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: out and and be nice and kind and I just 489 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, you're beautiful enough. But I don't want to 490 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: be considered a creep. I'm not a creep. I'm just 491 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: I just like you. So we already have this complicated 492 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: stew on the stove. But then when you add a 493 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: dash of this thing called masculinity threat, you have an 494 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: emotional powder keg really waiting to happen. So masculinity threat 495 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: is a sociological term referring to some men's expectations of 496 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: how they should fulfill hegemonic masculine roles. So masculinity threat 497 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: is a sociological term referring to when a guy feels 498 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: like his idea of what masculinity is and his role 499 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: in that is being challenged in some kind of way, 500 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: his masculinity being threatened. I guess you could say, yeah, 501 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: so that idea of I'm the breadwinner, I am strong, 502 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: I must be strong and stoic for my woman. And 503 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: of course I have to and am entitled to have 504 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: access to women's bodies. Sexually. So what happens when masculinity 505 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: is threatened, Well, you tend to get over compensation, which 506 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: is not that surprising. Um. There was a study in 507 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 1: social psychology that found that when men's masculinity is threatened, 508 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: they go overboard in distancing themselves from femininity or feminine 509 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: attributes or women and end up amping up the masculinity 510 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: the browishness. Uh the study authors right. Additionally, threatened men 511 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: claimed more stereotypically masculine attributes such as height, number of 512 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: past sexual relationships, and aggressiveness, which is interesting because your 513 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: height is just your height. And when these men's masculinity 514 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: was threatened or when they felt threatened, they said that 515 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: they were taller than they actually were. And so masculinity 516 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: is this sort of social power, and when that power 517 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: is endangered, men who are threatened will react, oftentimes in 518 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,959 Speaker 1: an aggressive manner. Now all of that, too, though, is 519 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: predicated on how closely a man identifies with hegemonic masculine roles, 520 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: because there are plenty of guys who where this masculinity 521 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: threat is not going to be as big of a 522 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: deal for them because they don't see their role in this, 523 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, kind of hegemonic box right there. Um, But 524 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: for the many, many men out there who do this 525 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: is a very real thing. And studies have also found 526 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: that provoking masculinity threat also diminishes men's perceptions of sexual 527 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: assault and violence as well. So again we start to 528 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: see these common threads along the spectrum of just you know, 529 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: feelings getting hurt that's totally understandable to violent outrage. Yeah. Well, 530 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: there was also a study in the American Journal of 531 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 1: Sociology that found that the more testosteron a man had, 532 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: the more overcompensating behaviors he exhibited when told that his 533 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: survey answers indicated femininity. In this particular study, Uh, when 534 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: men had less testosterone, they didn't really exhibit any real 535 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: overcompensation behavior to speak of. But key to that threat 536 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: is that men with more testosterone aren't necessarily walking around 537 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,959 Speaker 1: being macho and aggressive of the time, twenty four hours 538 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: a day. It was it was the threat. It was 539 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: the telling, hey, you your your survey answers when we 540 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: asked about attributes of your life and behavior, they're they're 541 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: really indicated femininity, No, bro, And that's when the guys 542 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: with a lot more testosterone than the other men went 543 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: into those overcompensating behaviors, like why would you tell that 544 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: to a six ft five men? Impossible? And this can 545 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: also happen with women in terms of femininity threat where, uh, 546 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: if you identify with those feminine roles and you feel 547 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: like that is being threatened, which would be people thinking 548 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: that you are too strong or aggressive, then you might 549 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: minimize yourself or your role in some kind of way 550 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: to compensate, which equally is not all women, right, Um, 551 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: It's just a particular subset of women who would react 552 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: negatively being told that they're too strong or too masculine. 553 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: So where though, is all of this coming from if 554 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about masculinity threat um? So Michael Kimmel wrote 555 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: a whole book about this um and he has built 556 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: a whole career actually on on studying masculinity UM. And 557 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: in his book Angry White Men Masculinity at the End 558 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: of an Era, he refers to the erosion of white 559 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: male privilege, particularly in the US as a quote aggrieved 560 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: entitlement basically of guys today not benefiting as much from 561 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: the privileges bestowed to say, their dads or their granddads. Yeah, 562 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: And in the same article, that was looking at Michael 563 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: Kimmel's research uh sociologists Tristan Bridges and Arrely tober So 564 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: that men are likely to turn to violence when they 565 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: perceive themselves to be otherwise unable to stake a claim 566 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: to a masculine gender identity. And of course this article 567 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: is very specifically talking about gun violence in the United 568 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: States as it relates to masculine aggression, but it does 569 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: seem to relate back to the aggressive responses that can 570 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: happen when rejection happens online or in dating scenarios, right, 571 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: because again this does seem to echo common demands for 572 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: those explanations as to why a girl doesn't want to 573 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: talk to you, go on a date with, sleep with, etcetera. 574 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: Them And the fact of the matter is some guys 575 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: are just jerks, just like some women or just jerks. 576 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: But there does seem to be something to the relationship 577 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: between masculinity threat and this pattern of rejection and how 578 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 1: we all process rejection, and also how that relates to 579 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: to this headonormative dating dynamic that has really not kept 580 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: up with gender progression and which does no one any good. 581 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: It does well, I mean I say that, but of 582 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: course the people who benefit from being on the top 583 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: of the heap. Of course they benefit from that, but 584 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: for I mean, I would argue that most people would 585 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: be better served if we weren't desperately clinging with our 586 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: fingernails sunk in to these ideas that men have to 587 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: be a certain way and women have to be a 588 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: certain way, and that men deserve x y z and 589 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: women need and should give x y z in response. Yeah, 590 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: and it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken too 591 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: with this structure that we've built up in terms of 592 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: straight you know, attraction, sex and pursuit, because as far 593 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: as I know, we don't see similar patterns. I mean, 594 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: of course there are incidents, but similar patterns happening with 595 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: LGBT dating. There's not the bi fleape grinder version, you know. 596 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems to be so so particular 597 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: to how men and women get together that just gets 598 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: my brain turning about what it really means, because clearly 599 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: this is not just about tender or online dating. This 600 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: is a bigger thing about how men and men and 601 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: women relate to each other. I think. Yeah, and the 602 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: idea that still that persists that people don't believe that 603 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,959 Speaker 1: no means no. And in pop culture too, we have 604 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: loved stories of the underdog I who finally gets his 605 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: reward at some point for you know, hanging in there 606 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: with the girl who's dating the you know, the rich 607 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: guy who's more handsome but ultimately he'll win her, or 608 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: just wearing a woman down, which really only feeds into 609 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: this dysfunction. Well, one researcher quoted was it in the 610 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: New York Times article about this, pointed to all those 611 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: movies and said, like, listen, statistically speaking and scientifically, people 612 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 1: date and have relationships with people who are of equivalent 613 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,839 Speaker 1: attractiveness and life status. And so that's kind of where 614 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: you get this idea of the nice guys of okay Cupid, 615 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: for instance, who voiced their entitlement to like a you know, 616 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,720 Speaker 1: like a gazelle, like a freaking Cindy Crawford on okay Cupid, 617 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: that they just deserve to have this woman pay attention 618 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: to them, And so why won't you answer me as 619 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: to why you won't date me? But so how do 620 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: we change this? How do we go from here? I mean, 621 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,280 Speaker 1: I I don't know that you and I sitting here 622 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: in a podcast studio are going to do it. What 623 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,280 Speaker 1: is it going to take or will this ever change? Well, 624 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: i'd i'd like to think that one day it might change, 625 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: and that we can all treat each other like human 626 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: people who have feelings, um, and respect each other's decisions. Um. 627 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: But I don't know. Maybe it it's if women talking 628 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 1: about it isn't gonna work. Maybe it's going to take 629 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: men talking to each other about it. Yeah, I mean 630 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: that brings up a quote from Kimmel and Angry White Men. 631 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: He said, American men define their masculinity not as much 632 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: in relation to women, but in relation to each other. So, guys, 633 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: what's it going to take? And also, okay, folks, I 634 00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: feel like we have a lot to learn from you, 635 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: so please please give us your wisdom because I know 636 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: we've heard from, for instance, some of our lesbian listeners 637 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: in response to our Division of household labor episode that yes, 638 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: there is sure there is a division. Somebody might like 639 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: to mow the law on, somebody like might like to 640 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: load the dishwasher Kristen Um, guilty, Um, But that there's 641 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: no stereotypical gender role to fall back on, and so 642 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: I would imagine it's the same in terms of dating 643 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: with the approach versus the approach e um that there's 644 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: no real script or schema for who should do the approaching, 645 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: who should do the rejecting or the accepting. And also too, 646 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: in terms of hookups gay men to take such a 647 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: more straightforward approach to it as well of sex being 648 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: sex do you want it or not? Done? And done 649 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: as well? Well, sure, because when it's a straight man 650 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 1: and a straight woman looking for each other on Tinder, 651 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: for instance, Mr tinder Um, you also have to deal 652 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: with all of the social stuff that says women who 653 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: just want sex on Tinder are gross or that they're 654 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: you know, sluts. So you've got all sorts of layers 655 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: of social grossness um putting pressure on everyone. We got 656 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,439 Speaker 1: some baggage and talk about some relationship baggage will help 657 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: us sort through it. Folks. We're really curious to hear 658 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: from women who have experienced this online. Does this issue 659 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: resonate with you, especially in your online dating experience and 660 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: just generally everyone, what are your thoughts on this? Mom 661 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. 662 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcasts, or 663 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 664 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: to share with you right now, and I've gotta let 665 00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: her here. Caroline from listener Andy, who writes, thank you, 666 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,000 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for doing an episode on Asian fetishes? 667 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 1: Is this something I deal with from time to time 668 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,359 Speaker 1: and it's hard to explain to others why it's an 669 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: issue or why it's creepy. You guys mentioned in the 670 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: podcast that having an Asian fetish is similar to merely 671 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: having a type. This is an argument I hear a lot. 672 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: The difference between having a fetish and a type comes 673 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: down to whether you can see the person as an 674 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: individual or merely as a member of their group. For instance, 675 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: Kristen said she's only dated white guys. But Kristen, do 676 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: you immediately hit on every white guy you meet because 677 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: he's merely white? Answer? Yes, it's exhausting. I'm totally kidding, 678 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 1: She says. Do you quiz him on his white cultural upbringing? 679 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,359 Speaker 1: Do you ask him where he buys his silverware? I've 680 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: been asked where I buy my chopsticks. Everyone has a type. 681 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: Mine is lanky, pale, nerdy guys, but that doesn't mean 682 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: I find them interchangeable. Once again, I appreciate you doing 683 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: an episode on an Asian issue. Since we are the 684 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: quote model minority, it's sometimes hard to convince people that 685 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: racism against Asians exists or matters. While it's true that 686 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,760 Speaker 1: in America, racism against Asians tends to be less violent 687 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 1: than racism towards other minorities, that doesn't mean it's not 688 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: a problem and that it shouldn't be examined. Thanks for 689 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: making this world a better place. Um, thank you, Andy. 690 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: That last line to escape me goose bumps. Well, I 691 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,879 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Elizabeth in response to our 692 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,359 Speaker 1: Samurai Women episode, and I just want to say, first 693 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 1: of all, Elizabeth, thank you. Her email is a six page, 694 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: essentially really super well written list of corrections, and I 695 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: wish I could read the whole thing that I can't, 696 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 1: so I want to pull out some points of clarification 697 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: that Elizabeth makes, So here we go. She says, I 698 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: posted this on Facebook as well because I felt it 699 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: was too hugely important to be glossed over, and I 700 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: was really hoping other fellow listeners would see it and 701 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: catch that the switch from ship to religion. Two more 702 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,040 Speaker 1: disparaging views of women came from Confucianism and not Buddhism. 703 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: Both were introduced into Japan at the same time and 704 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: had long been tied together in China because of the 705 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: Chinese traditional religion, which really meant that Taoism, Buddhism, and 706 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,880 Speaker 1: Confucianism were all simultaneously believed in and work together in 707 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: unison to form the belief of the Chinese people. Because 708 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: of the strong relation and tied to Confucianism, a lot 709 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: of the misogynistic ideas about how evil women were and 710 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,440 Speaker 1: whether or not they could obtain enlightenment bled very heavily 711 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: into Buddhism. It's possible that there may have been some 712 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: not very accepting ideas about women in general and Buddhism, 713 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,840 Speaker 1: but at its core that's not really part of the 714 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,399 Speaker 1: Buddhist doctrine. She goes on to say. Historically, the more 715 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: firm that Confucianism took root in Japan, the less rights 716 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: women had. Every negative thing you mentioned in your podcast 717 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: as a cultural belief about women, those are all Confucianist beliefs. 718 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 1: For the hay On period. Women being behind closed doors 719 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 1: then was definitely a Confucian thing in part, but Confucianism 720 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: didn't have as strong of a hold then. Women had 721 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: relatively a lot of power in the hay On period 722 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: and a lot of social mobility if they were able 723 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: to get the means or attract the attention of the 724 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: right person, and being indoors was kind of more of 725 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: a luxurious choice for all parts of the aristocracy because, 726 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: as I mentioned in my Facebook post, it had to 727 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 1: do with labor. If you're tanned and go outside a lot, 728 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: it's because you're poor and you tend to the fields, 729 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: your skin darkens. Men were allowed to darken a little 730 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: because they had to run the country, so they went 731 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,719 Speaker 1: out to court. Men were also the administrators for the 732 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,799 Speaker 1: property of the women in their lives, since at this 733 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: time period women were allowed to inherit residences, property, and 734 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 1: obtain income in the form of rice. They held title 735 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: and core positions. But because you didn't literally live in 736 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: the fields, you had to send someone to go get 737 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,919 Speaker 1: your rice for you. That was the job of the men, 738 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,760 Speaker 1: although the most elite of men would still have people 739 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: to do that for them. If you are of low rank, 740 00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: you probably have to go do that for yourself because 741 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 1: you'd have no other vast old. Low ranking women wouldn't 742 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: do this just because it'd be hard and honestly, they'd 743 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: have a better life if they tried to become a 744 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,320 Speaker 1: lady in waiting for some prominent figure. So as a 745 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,279 Speaker 1: social construct, they would be encouraged to be indoors more 746 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,800 Speaker 1: often as well. And of course there Elizabeth is explaining 747 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,280 Speaker 1: our discussion about how over certain periods in Japanese history, 748 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: women were basically quote unquote like not allowed to go outside, 749 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,319 Speaker 1: that they it wasn't social acceptable for women to be 750 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: out and about um, so she's explaining the whole like 751 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: women staying in their rooms thing. She goes on to say, Oh, 752 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 1: and as a general note about loyalty and stuff, it's 753 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,839 Speaker 1: been noted through different parts of Asia that women are 754 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: often believed to be more loyal than men, which is 755 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,359 Speaker 1: also kind of an odd side effect of Confucianism as well. 756 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: Confucianism teaches that while you should respect the leaders and 757 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: people above you for their ultimate decision, if you believe 758 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: that they're doing wrong, you're allowed to attempt to set 759 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: them on the correct path. In terms of a leader 760 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: of vassal type relationship, if you're leaders a jerk, you're 761 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,800 Speaker 1: allowed to quit and find a new allegiance. In China 762 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: and practice I remember from one course that the school 763 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,239 Speaker 1: are had apparently remarked about the citizens in a town 764 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,919 Speaker 1: facing the attack from an army, the men ran away 765 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,479 Speaker 1: while the women valiantly killed themselves. Women were also thought 766 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,439 Speaker 1: of as more willing and able to kill themselves because 767 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: of the social pressure put upon them by Confucianism. So 768 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: because they were subjected to so much and expected to 769 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: be loyal to the men in their lives, it was 770 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,759 Speaker 1: easier for them to die for a greater cause, like 771 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,479 Speaker 1: an incoming enemy, or even in the case of going 772 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 1: into battle. Plus, you know, women cheating and all that 773 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: was highly frowned upon. But because men didn't have to 774 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 1: adhere to loyalties day to day, they would change allegiances 775 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 1: easily or would run away. So Elizabeth, I'm really sorry 776 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: I couldn't read your whole email, but I do want 777 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: to thank you for ending it with anyway. Still love 778 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: the podcast and thanks for talking about all of these subjects, 779 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: and thanks to all of you who are written into us. 780 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: Moms Stuff at house Stuffworks dot com is our email address. 781 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,920 Speaker 1: You can also find links to all of our social 782 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, 783 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 1: including this one, with links to our sources so you 784 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,359 Speaker 1: can read all about that tender melt down we can't 785 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,600 Speaker 1: get enough. Head on over to stuff Mom Never told 786 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:08,560 Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of 787 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:19,839 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com