WEBVTT - #184 Jason Flom with Larry DeLisle 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.440 summer day, Lariot Sue Delisle took their four children out 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.760 for ice cream and to watch the boats pass by 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:12.799 on the Detroit River. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:14.640 When Larry pulled out on the. 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.680 Street that dead ended at the river, the mechanical defect 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.840 in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:25.439 car sped off uncontrollably, and laryer Sue's panicked efforts could 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.000 not save them from launching into the Detroit River. Larry 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.240 and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa, Kate, 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:35.519 and Emily tragically did not. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:36.919 When the water. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.839 Locked wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.839 again during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.320 about that very make and model station wagon. It was 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.720 a tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:55.560 the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen 0:00:55.600 --> 0:01:00.320 hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly creed 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.800 to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.000 as a confession for a court of law, but it 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.000 was quickly submitted to the Court of Public opinion when 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.839 the police chief went on TV and said that Larry 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.920 Delile had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.360 was convicted of four counts of murder and one count 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:26.080 of attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.760 actual innocence. This tragic accident stole their four children, and 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.400 the state compounded that loss by stealing what has become 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.280 over three long decades. 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:38.440 Of Larry's life. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:57.720 This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to 0:01:57.800 --> 0:01:59.920 wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:01.480 To me, of course, I'm your. 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:05.760 Host, and today my heart is heavy because of the 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.239 story you're about to hear and the man you're about 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.680 to meet. I'm proud to call him a friend, and 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:13.959 I'm proud to be part of the team that's helping 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:20.640 to try to bring justice long delayed to this awful case. So, 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.200 without further ado, Larry Delisle, Welcome to ronful Conviction. 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.440 I'm sorry you have to be here, but I'm glad 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:28.160 you're here. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.720 Humble and honored to be here with you today. 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:37.360 And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:38.880 exactly are you, Larry. 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.840 I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland correctional facility. 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:49.880 And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone. 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:56.000 You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.040 obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.839 that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:10.359 should have known better. And of course your wrongful incarceration 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:14.320 now for over three decades is another thing that nobody 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.560 could even begin to imagine. But I want to go 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.359 back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan. 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.840 Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:25.200 of old. 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:28.760 I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.119 separate tragedy, right, I mean, I don't know how much 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.440 one person is supposed to take in their life, and 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.080 I don't even know if you want to talk about that, 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.240 but it does come into focus with this case. 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:38.560 As this goes on. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.320 You're talking about my father committing suicide. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.400 Yes, of course I got a. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.360 Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:50.040 that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.280 by the river and put a gun to his head. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:57.360 Ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being the 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:02.840 central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.440 Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.200 I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife, 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.040 she wanted to give us something because my sister and 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.120 I signed away our rights to his house because we 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.800 didn't want her to have to remortgage or have to move, 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.039 So she gave me the car the option of keeping 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.280 it or selling it. At the time, we had a 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:30.080 brand new nineteen eighty seven Ford Aerostarter we had just 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.040 bought to go to Disneyland November of eighty seven, when 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.880 my father had committed suicide, we were talking about getting 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.800 rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper vehicle so we 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:42.880 can knock our bills down to a point where we 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.920 can afford to buy a house. Well, when my father 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.920 committed suicide, the place that I worked for tiremen, God 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.840 bless them, they had taken the vehicle. They had it 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:57.600 completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when I went there 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.960 that night to drive the vehicle, I had mixed them. 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.880 When I got in, I started crying right away. But 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.960 after a few minutes, I felt calm because my father 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.560 had taken me everywhere with him when I was younger 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.719 and older in the station wagon. He loved station wagon. 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.200 I think that was his second or third one. So 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.160 when I drove the vehicle, I felt at peace. Now 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.800 it was up to my wife. She drove it. She 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.039 loved it because it had a lot of power. It 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.320 just happened to have an intrinsic value as far as 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:35.800 helping us to achieve our goals, which would have been 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:37.920 to get a house for our children, to get a 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:38.560 house for us. 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:41.080 Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in you're 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.040 a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.479 someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.400 four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.760 And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:00.279 of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and I encourage. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.320 Everyone to watch that episode. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.960 But let's go back to the night of this awful accident, 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.560 and we're talking about the evening of August third, nineteen 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.440 eighty nine, and a ninety degree hot summer day and 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.000 the hottest part of the summer. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.599 This was a very, very hot day, and it was 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.080 a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.760 that day, running around on my feet. I got out 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.880 of there as quickly as I could, got the kids 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:27.360 in the car, and away we went. 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.240 Larry and his wife and the children, Brian, Melissa, Kadie 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.080 and Emily had gone for ice cream, and we're watching 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.200 the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.920 kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs. 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.320 I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.560 muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.720 most of my youth with cramping in my legs. 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.279 It actually happened to me in the gym this morning 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.280 when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing, 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.440 especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day. 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.520 Which was what the situation was with you. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.400 But there are a number of things that played into 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.680 this unspeakable disaster. And what really happened was as you 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.360 were leaving to go home, you were on Eureka Road, 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.680 which dead ends at the river. You stepped on the gas, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.040 your leg cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.120 You reached down to pull your foot off the gas, 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.520 but the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.400 it at the time, but there was a deep beact 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:34.200 that caused your accelerated jam, propelling the car with the 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.880 six of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.480 at the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River. 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.160 I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:45.760 in your head. 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:52.480 Now I try that too. It's still painful today. When 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.480 the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.800 what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas. 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.800 My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.080 was off. She saw that my foot was off, but 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.640 the car did not slow down. Before I could even 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:14.920 do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:19.840 help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.640 me for a second and I froze, and before I 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.640 could decide what I was going to do, we ran 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.040 out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.760 according to officials, seven to ten seconds. 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.600 We're talking about a section of the street that was 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.920 three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:39.920 about the fact that the car had a powerful engine 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.640 and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:45.720 its basically just a little bit further than a football field. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.360 So add to I mean, all the other elements of 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.960 pure panic and terror, the fact that the kids are 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.520 in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing a wheel, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.800 et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:00.559 on top of that, you didn't know how to swim. 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:04.480 Right, No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:09.679 my high school coach. But that's about it. But in 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.840 the impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.320 head hit around the weisor area. There was a bright light, 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.319 a shot of pain from my neck all the way 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.720 down my spine. So I was disoriented. Once I was 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:26.160 in the water, I don't even know how I got 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.440 out of the car well. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.520 I mean, you know, it's impossible to probably imagine. And 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:39.439 the fact is that this particular vehicle had known issues. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.680 There were over one hundred people who had reported the 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.720 accelerator jamming on this exact make and model station Wagon. 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.280 It was a seventy seven Ford Ltd. Station Wagon four 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.720 SIXTQB against four barrel carburetor. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.840 There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Kolquell, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.520 and he had a identified three separate defects, any one 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.280 of which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.000 a kink in the accelerated cable that caused the cable 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.319 to stick. Secondly, the throttle plates could be heard scraping 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.640 inside the carburetor. And thirdly, the engine mount was broken 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.280 in this vehicle, which caused the tilt of the engine, 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:24.079 and the tilting pulled at the accelerator cable. So the 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:30.520 combination of these factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.600 they chose to ignore their own test because when they 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.080 tested the vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.439 in one of the times when they test drove it, 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.680 the accelerator did in fact jam. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.040 Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.120 had stuck. You had two mechanics there, one for the 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.920 state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.080 even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.960 certified master mechanic for us who is the one who 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.720 found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.280 it for them before they could even test it in 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.760 an engineer. They were all there today that the test 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.880 happened when the accelerator stuck. The arresting officer. He was 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.720 sitting next to the State trooper sergeant during their tests, 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.439 and they're testing it with his foot on the accelerator, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.920 testing the brakes to see how long it would take 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.880 to stop the vehicle. And I imagine it would be 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.120 quite a long ways with only manual brakes work. And 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.760 you don't have the power assist, because when you're accelerating, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.600 you don't have power assist. Your power brakes don't work. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.480 You have to stand on them to get it to stop. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.280 In the State trooper sergeant, and he had to do 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.120 that so hard he broke the seat any case, the 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.520 arresting officer he's taking notes. He wrote across the top 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:51.280 of his notepad in bold letters, accelerator sticking, then swore 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.160 under oath when he was up on the witness stand. 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:56.480 He had no idea why. He wrote that there was 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.640 nothing wrong with the car when the accelerator stuck. Mechanic 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.040 to master mechanic and an engineer, they came running over 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.440 to the vehicle, according to my lawyer, and the state 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.440 trooper waved them away. He said, no, no, the problems 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.679 inside the car. You have engineers and mechanics there to 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.640 confind it. Get out of the car and let him 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.960 find out what's sticking right now. And he refused to 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.920 do it because the arresting officer probably didn't want them 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.280 to find it, because if they found a problem, it 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.640 would approve what I've been saying from the very beginning 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:28.960 and what my wife had been saying from the very beginning. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.319 The accelerator stuck, because it did for you. He shut 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.600 it off. He testified that he shut it off because 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.360 it startled him. He's six four to three hundred pounds 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:41.360 and it startled him. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.320 You expected to remain come. 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.040 Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:48.760 going to start the vehicle back up and put it 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.439 in gear and see how fast it would go. At 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:51.880 that point, all you had to do was put it 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.760 in gear. When he shut it off, avoided the test, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.600 and they never got a chance to test it again 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.640 because by the time they gave it over to the 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.640 since the engine had been sold roughly treated during their 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:09.320 acceleration test, that the engine blew up, end of testing, 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.360 end of proving beyond reasonable doubt that there was a 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:14.800 problem with the station lag. 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.520 This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.600 Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:31.720 People improve their lives. 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.679 For more than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.200 have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.720 By empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits, and working 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.360 with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.320 in our communities and empowers those closest to the problems 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.920 to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences through 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.400 the First Step Act, empowering community based programs and help 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:00.000 people re enter society, and now working to bridge divide 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.520 in our communities. To learn how you may get involved, 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:16.720 visit Standtogether dot org slash conviction. In a tragedy like this, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:23.160 community members have a very difficult time reconciling the fact 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.640 that these type of tragic accidents happen. When a child 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:31.600 is lost, it's easier psychologically for people to assign blame 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:36.360 to someone because the randomness of it is too terrifying, 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:41.680 especially for people with children to imagine and in this case, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.760 I think that, as well as other sort of confirmation 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.960 biases took hold. You were targeted by the media. They 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.160 hounded you and basically set up camp outside the house 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.400 of grieving parents until you agreed to give an interview. 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.640 And then it becomes and we've seen this in so 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.240 many cases, whether it's Amanda Knox or so many others, 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:05.640 where the media or the authorities feel you're either too 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.200 sad or not sad enough, or too hysterical or too calm. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.440 I don't think that people are aware of the fact 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.080 that that first interview I did in the backyard, that 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.480 I had had a couple of valumes given to me 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:21.360 by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.000 All I remember was an airplane going over the top. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:29.320 So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.040 makes me angry that they're going to point to the 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:36.200 fact that I'm not classical as far as how I 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.240 was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:46.400 by the press. I'm sorry, it's just very upsetting. 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.320 Well, let's move on from there. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.000 This is a false confession case that has all of 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.080 the hallmarks that we see again and again just to 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:01.440 paint a picture for everyone. A week after this imaginable loss, 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.400 the police picked you and Sue your wife up at 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.680 seven am and interrogated you till one in the morning. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:15.400 So that's eighteen hours. And we know that when this 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:20.560 process goes on interminably, eventually everybody has a breaking point. 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.720 And even though you told him again and again I 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.800 didn't do this, et cetera, et cetera, they just wouldn't listen. 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:28.320 Is that right. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.920 The continue to tell me that I wasn't telling him 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.200 everything he wanted to hear, and I didn't understand what 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.400 he meant at that point because I was answering all 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:39.520 of his questions. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.479 I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.640 you to recite over and over again exactly what happened 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.720 when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.320 could not have known that this car was defective, or 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:53.800 you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.960 He was asking what could have happened? Why the accelerator 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.720 had stuck? And I didn't know I had my shoes 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.440 off that the shoe gets stuck in there was the 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.640 accelerator sticking. Why wasn't it slowing down. Would you take 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.840 your foot off the guests It's supposed to slow down. Period. 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.200 Let's face it, there was no explanation that you could 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.800 have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.520 a very high profile case. The media is all over it, 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.000 and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.919 you must have done this. So then it gets to 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.200 the point where they give you a polygraph. And polygraphs 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.879 are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:34.560 getting people to false they confess. 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:40.320 I'm doctor Michael Obravski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist. 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.560 At the time of the wildcase, I was studying false 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.679 confessions and I was retained by the court to examine 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.919 the confession. So I was provided with the videotape of 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.000 the entire interrogation, the first half an hour to forty 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:00.680 five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer built himself up as 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.960 an expert and infallible, and he also did the same 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.639 thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph could read minds, 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.439 it was infallible, it's never wrong. It gives delial the 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.320 tests which only consists of a few questions, and he 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:17.040 leaves the room and he comes back with his head 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.400 shaking and says to de Liial, you know you fail 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.679 the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make the 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.520 defendant feel that their situation is totally hopeless. So basically 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.040 you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible, 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.119 you think you're telling the truth. 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:37.680 It puts you into. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.200 A state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:45.800 explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmitteer spends 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.440 hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions, it's 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.680 telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:58.680 you're tired and families are burden, and I know how 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.320 hard your life is. So he is empathic with him, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.320 tells him he understands, implies that you know you're not 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:10.280 a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.159 they do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:17.920 what he's trying to do is get Larry to make 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:22.040 incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.199 you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this. 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.040 Some of the things that this man was saying we're 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.399 actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.600 that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.679 drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.000 the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.240 if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.959 about he gets so mad at his kids he'd want 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:48.560 to stick them in a garbage bag and throw them 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.280 in a clount. He said, you ever want to do that? 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.960 And I got angry at him for even suggesting something 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.160 that heinous to be done to any child. I never 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.639 said I wanted to do that, But then later on 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.840 in his his interrogation, somehow he had me parroting him. 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.560 But they were not confessions. They were brought about by 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.480 this man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:17.080 I was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there. 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.120 Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:27.080 and he doesn't, And finally he tries out a scenario 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.720 that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.919 you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.280 tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.359 that we don't really know that we've done them. You know, 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.600 even though you did it, you're not really responsible because 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:47.919 you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.080 an explanation, and so at some point he makes an 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.600 equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.520 or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:01.400 he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.240 maybe that did happen, and then the interrogation is over 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.159 because what he's done is accepted Palmeteer's theory that he 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.000 did drive the car into the river and that he 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.560 did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.720 the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:18.640 make any difference. 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:24.400 The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.760 that Larry Delal has confessed. At that point, they only 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:31.000 needed trial. To his credit of the judge did actually 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.960 suppress the confession, and people are probably hearing that saying, 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.000 oh good. But the fact is it didn't matter at 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.440 that point because they refused to change venue. 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.800 So it's very important to understand the psychological atmosphere was 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.439 occurring first, the news stations had a stock shot of 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.440 the car being lifted out of the river by a crane, 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.320 and everybody knew there were four dead children in there, 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.680 and night after night that was playing. People then started 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:03.399 gathering down by the river, demanding justice for these four kids. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.399 And then after he was questioned, they announced that he 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.439 had confessed to the crime, which of course he had not. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:15.679 But you put that in the crowd's mind, it's almost 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.080 impossible to reverse. The next thing that happened was, of course, 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.200 the suppression hearing, and that's where I testified that the 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:26.320 confession was involuntary. I described the techniques that were used 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.280 and why what he said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.600 ruled in Delile's favor, and he threw out the confession. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:36.800 Except the problem was that it had already been in 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:41.399 the newspaper, and the retractions from the newspaper said things like, 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:45.760 Lawrence Delile's statements that he intentionally killed his family cannot 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:48.400 be used in court against them. And when you try 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.480 to tell people that it's invalid, they believe, oh no, 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.919 the guy just just realized that he got himself into trouble. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.800 He's just denying it now. So They never believed the 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:00.520 confession is false. They believe the denial of it confession 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:01.000 as false. 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:04.880 I mean, I don't know if they have caves and why. 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.280 I thot that you could have found someone who didn't 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:10.280 on the TV or read the newspaper. But short of that, 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:13.800 you're looking at yours or unaware of the tactics that 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:17.240