Speaker 1: On August third, nine, after a long, hot summer day,
Speaker 1: Larry at Sue Delisle took their four children out for
Speaker 1: ice cream and to watch the boats passed by on
Speaker 1: the Detroit River. When Larry pulled out on the street
Speaker 1: that had ended at the river, a mechanical defect in
Speaker 1: their station wagon caused the accelerated to stick. The car
Speaker 1: sped off uncontrollably, and Larry and suss panicked. Efforts could
Speaker 1: not save them from launching into the Detroit River. Larry
Speaker 1: and Sue narrowly survived, but their children, Brian, Melissa, Kate,
Speaker 1: and Emily tragically did not. When the water locked wreck
Speaker 1: was pulled from the river, the accelerators stuck again during testing,
Speaker 1: an issue raised by hundreds of others about that very
Speaker 1: make and model station wagon. It was a tragic accident,
Speaker 1: but that wasn't good enough for the police, the media,
Speaker 1: or the people of down River, Michigan. After eighteen hours
Speaker 1: of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly agreed to
Speaker 1: hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster as
Speaker 1: a confession for a court of law, but it was
Speaker 1: quickly submitted to the court of public opinion when the
Speaker 1: police chief went on TV and said that Larry Delisle
Speaker 1: had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry was
Speaker 1: convicted of four counts of murder and one count of
Speaker 1: attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his actual innocence.
Speaker 1: This tragic accident stole their four children, and the state
Speaker 1: compounded that loss by stealing what has become over three
Speaker 1: long decades of Larry's life. This is wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 1: Jason Flom. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam.
Speaker 1: That's me, of course, I'm your host, and today my
Speaker 1: heart is heavy because of the story you're about to
Speaker 1: hear and the man you're about to meet. I'm proud
Speaker 1: to call him a friend, and I'm proud to be
Speaker 1: part of the team that's helping to try to bring
Speaker 1: justice long delayed to this awful, awful case. So, without
Speaker 1: further ado, Larry Delisle, Welcome to rona Eviction. I'm sorry
Speaker 1: you have to be here, but I'm glad you're here,
Speaker 1: humble and honored to be here with you today. And
Speaker 1: Larry is calling us from prison um in Michigan, where
Speaker 1: where exactly are you, Larry. I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which
Speaker 1: is a Lakeland correctional facility. And what you've gone through
Speaker 1: is surely unimaginable to almost anyone. UM. You know, the
Speaker 1: multiple tragic aspects of this case include obviously the loss
Speaker 1: of your family, UM, but also the persecution that was
Speaker 1: wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really should have
Speaker 1: known better. UM. And of course you're wrongful incarceration now
Speaker 1: for over three decades is another thing that nobody could
Speaker 1: even begin to imagine. But I want to go back
Speaker 1: to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan? If
Speaker 1: my grandparents raised me from age two years old, I mean,
Speaker 1: your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A separate tragedy, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how much one person is
Speaker 1: supposed to take in their life, and I don't even
Speaker 1: know if you want to talk about that, but it
Speaker 1: does come into focus with this case as this as
Speaker 1: this goes on, you're talking about my father committing suicide. Yes,
Speaker 1: of course, I got a call in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night that my father had committed suicide. He drove
Speaker 1: down somewhere by the river and put a gun to
Speaker 1: his head, ironically in the same vehicle that ended up
Speaker 1: being the central figure in this awful tragedy to be
Speaker 1: felt your family. Most people would not have wanted to
Speaker 1: drive the vehicle. I didn't want to drive the vehicle.
Speaker 1: But my father's wife, she wanted to give us something
Speaker 1: because my sister and I find away our rights to
Speaker 1: his house, because we didn't want her to have to
Speaker 1: remortgage or have to move, So she gave me the
Speaker 1: car the option of keeping it or selling it. At
Speaker 1: the time, we had a brand new Ford aero started.
Speaker 1: We had just bought to go to Disneyland November seven,
Speaker 1: when my father had committed suicide. We were talking about
Speaker 1: getting rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper vehicle so
Speaker 1: we can knock our bills down to a point where
Speaker 1: we can afford to buy a house. Well, when my
Speaker 1: father committed suicide the place that I worked for retirement,
Speaker 1: God bless him, they had taken the vehicle. They had
Speaker 1: it completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when I went
Speaker 1: there that night to drive the vehicle, I had mixed
Speaker 1: in oceans. When I got in, I started crying right away,
Speaker 1: but after a few minutes I felt calm. Because my
Speaker 1: father had taken me everywhere with him when I was
Speaker 1: younger and older in the station wagon. He loved station wagon.
Speaker 1: I think that was the second or third one. So
Speaker 1: when I drove the vehicle, I felt at peace. Now
Speaker 1: it was up to my wife. She drove it. She
Speaker 1: loved it because it had a lot of power. It
Speaker 1: just happened to have an intrinsic value as far as
Speaker 1: helping us to achieve our goals, which would have been
Speaker 1: to get a house for our children, to get a
Speaker 1: house for us. Right, well, with four kids, you have
Speaker 1: obviously in your mechanic, and Larry is known in the
Speaker 1: prison as someone who can fix basically anything. But even
Speaker 1: still raising four kids on that salary, it can't be
Speaker 1: an easy task. And this case was featured in the
Speaker 1: Netflix documentary series of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Loudenberg,
Speaker 1: and encourage everyone to watch that episode. But let's go
Speaker 1: back to the night of this awful accident, and we're
Speaker 1: talking about the evening of August third, ninety degree hot
Speaker 1: summer day and the hottest part of the summer. This
Speaker 1: this was a very very hot day and it was
Speaker 1: a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours
Speaker 1: that day running around on my feet. I got out
Speaker 1: of there as quickly as I could, got the kids
Speaker 1: in the car, and away we went. Larry and his
Speaker 1: wife and the children, Brian, Melissa, Katie and Emily had
Speaker 1: gone for ice cream, and we're watching the boats along
Speaker 1: the Detroit River, which I know the kids enjoy doing that.
Speaker 1: You had issues with your legs. I was just not
Speaker 1: properly hydrated, and it caused my muscles to cramp up
Speaker 1: at different points. I've had problems most of my youth
Speaker 1: with cramping in my legs. It actually happened to me
Speaker 1: in the gym this morning when I was stretching. So
Speaker 1: it's not an uncommon thing, especially when you're dehydrated, like
Speaker 1: on a hot summer day, which was what this situation
Speaker 1: was with you. But there are a number of things
Speaker 1: that played into this unspeakable disaster. And what really happened
Speaker 1: was as you were leaving to go home, you were
Speaker 1: on Eureka Road, which dead ends at the river. You
Speaker 1: stepped on the gas, your leg cramped right up, the
Speaker 1: car shot off in pain. You reached down to pull
Speaker 1: your foot off the gas, but the car continued to accelerate. Now,
Speaker 1: you didn't know it at the time, but there was
Speaker 1: a defect that caused your accelerated to jam, propelling the
Speaker 1: car with the six of you inside, terrified and screaming
Speaker 1: through the barricade at the end of Eureka Road right
Speaker 1: into the Detroit River. That mean must have relived that
Speaker 1: thousands of times in your head now trying not to
Speaker 1: still painful today. When the accelerator stuck, it threw me off.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was stuck. I got my foot
Speaker 1: off the gas. My foot was off. My wife even
Speaker 1: testified my foot was off. She saw that my foot
Speaker 1: was off, but the car did not slow down. Before
Speaker 1: I could even do anything further, she reached over in
Speaker 1: an attempt to help me. It was an inadvertent act,
Speaker 1: but it startled me for a second and I froze,
Speaker 1: and before I could decide what I was going to do,
Speaker 1: we ran out of street. The whole thing took seven
Speaker 1: to ten seconds, according to officials. Seven to ten seconds.
Speaker 1: We're talking about a section of the street that was long.
Speaker 1: We've already talked about the fact that the car had
Speaker 1: a powerful engine and it wouldn't take any car very
Speaker 1: long to cover. It's basically just a little bit further
Speaker 1: than a football field. So add to I mean, all
Speaker 1: the other elements of pure panic and terror, the fact
Speaker 1: that the kids are in the car. I'm sure they're screaming,
Speaker 1: wife's grabbing the wheel, etcetera, etcetera. You're staring at the water,
Speaker 1: and on top of that, you didn't know how to swim, right, No,
Speaker 1: I can't. I can tread the water thanks to my
Speaker 1: high school coach. But that's about it. But in the
Speaker 1: impact itself, I was thrown forward, top of my head,
Speaker 1: hit around the visor area. There was a bright light
Speaker 1: shot of pain from my neck all the way down
Speaker 1: my spine. So I was disoriented once I was in
Speaker 1: the water. I don't even know how I got out
Speaker 1: of the car. Well, I mean, you know, it's impossible
Speaker 1: to probably imagine. And the fact is that this particular
Speaker 1: vehicle had known issues. There were over a hundred people
Speaker 1: who had reported the accelerator jamming on this exact make
Speaker 1: and model station Wagon. It was a seventy seven Ford Ltd.
Speaker 1: Station Wagon four six cube against four barrel carburetor. There
Speaker 1: was the mechanic who examined the car, Jim Colquell, and
Speaker 1: he had identified three separate defects, any one of which
Speaker 1: could have caused this uncontrolled acceleration. One was a kink
Speaker 1: in the accelerated cable that caused the cable to stick. Secondly,
Speaker 1: the throttle plates could be heard scraping inside the carburetor.
Speaker 1: And thirdly, the engine mount was broken in this vehicle,
Speaker 1: which caused the tilt of the engine, and the tilting
Speaker 1: pulled at the accelerator cable. So the combination of these
Speaker 1: factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, they chose
Speaker 1: to ignore their own tests because when they tested the
Speaker 1: vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, in
Speaker 1: one of the times when they test drove it, the
Speaker 1: accelerator did in fact jam. Yes, when they were testing
Speaker 1: the vehicle and the accelerator had stuck. You had two
Speaker 1: mechanics there, one for the state who actually was just
Speaker 1: a bus mechanic who couldn't even start the vehicle for testing.
Speaker 1: We had an a s C certified master mechanic for
Speaker 1: us who is the one who found all the problems
Speaker 1: with the vehicle, had to start it for them before
Speaker 1: they could even test it in an engineer. They were
Speaker 1: all there to day to test. Happened when the accelerator stuck.
Speaker 1: The arresting officer. He was sitting next to the State
Speaker 1: trooper sergeant during their tests, and they're testing it with
Speaker 1: his foot on the accelerator, testing the brakes to see
Speaker 1: how long it would take to stop the vehicle. And
Speaker 1: I imagine it would be quite a long ways with
Speaker 1: only manual brakes work. And you don't have the power assist,
Speaker 1: because when you're accelerating, you don't have power assist. Your
Speaker 1: power brakes don't work. You have to stand on them
Speaker 1: to get it to stop. Into the State trooper sergeant,
Speaker 1: and he had to do that so hard they broke
Speaker 1: the seat. Any case, the arresting officer, he's taking notes.
Speaker 1: He wrote across the top of his notepad in bold letters,
Speaker 1: accelerators sticking, then swore under oath when he was up
Speaker 1: on the witness stand. He had no idea why. He
Speaker 1: wrote that there was nothing wrong with the car when
Speaker 1: the accelerator stuck. The mechanic to master mechanic and an engineer.
Speaker 1: They came running over to the vehicle, according to my lawyer,
Speaker 1: and the state trooper wave him away. He said, no, no,
Speaker 1: the problems inside the car you have engineers and mechanics
Speaker 1: there to confine it, get out of the car, let
Speaker 1: him find out what's sticking right now, And he refused
Speaker 1: to do it because the arresting officer probably didn't want
Speaker 1: them to find it, because if they found a problem,
Speaker 1: it would approve what I've been saying from the very
Speaker 1: beginning and what my wife had been saying from the
Speaker 1: very beginning. The accelerator stuck, because it did for you.
Speaker 1: He shut it off. He testified that he shut it
Speaker 1: off because it startled him. He's six four or three
Speaker 1: pounds and it startled him. Do you expect it to
Speaker 1: remain calm. Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said.
Speaker 1: He was going to start the vehicle back up and
Speaker 1: put it in gear and see how fast it would go.
Speaker 1: At that point, all you have to do is put
Speaker 1: it in gear. When he shut it off, avoided the test,
Speaker 1: and they never got a chance to test it again
Speaker 1: because by the time they gave it over to the
Speaker 1: sense the engine had been sold roughly treated during their
Speaker 1: acceleration test that the engine blew up. End of testing
Speaker 1: them and of proving beyond reasonable doubt that there was
Speaker 1: a problem with the station wagon. This episode is brought
Speaker 1: to you by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic
Speaker 1: community dedicated to helping people improve their lives. For more
Speaker 1: than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners have been
Speaker 1: on the front lines of criminal justice reform. By empowering
Speaker 1: people to take action, supporting nonprofits, and working with businesses,
Speaker 1: Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems in our
Speaker 1: communities and empowers those closest to the problems to drive solutions.
Speaker 1: Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences through the First Step Act,
Speaker 1: empowering community based programs and help people re enter society,
Speaker 1: and now working to bridge divide in our communities. To
Speaker 1: learn how you may get involved, visit stand together dot
Speaker 1: org slash conviction. In a tragedy like this, community members
Speaker 1: have a very difficult time reconciling the fact that these
Speaker 1: type of tragic accidents happen. When a child is lost,
Speaker 1: it's easier psychologically for people to assign blame to someone
Speaker 1: because the randomness of it is too terrifying, especially for
Speaker 1: people with children to imagine. And in this case, I
Speaker 1: think that as well as other sort of confirmation biases
Speaker 1: took hold. You were targeted by the media. They hounded
Speaker 1: you and basically set up camp outside the house of
Speaker 1: grieving parents until you agree to give an interview, and
Speaker 1: then it becomes And we've seen this in so many cases,
Speaker 1: whether it's Amanda Knots are so many others where the
Speaker 1: media or the authorities feel you're either too sad or
Speaker 1: not sad enough, or too hysterical or too calm. I
Speaker 1: don't think that people are aware of the fact that
Speaker 1: that first interview I did in the backyard, that I
Speaker 1: had had a couple of volumes given to me by
Speaker 1: a family member, and I don't even remember the interview.
Speaker 1: All I remember was an airplane going over the top.
Speaker 1: So if I didn't show emotion for people, uh, it
Speaker 1: just makes me angry that they're going to point to
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm not classical as far as how
Speaker 1: I was supposed to react to losing my children being
Speaker 1: hounded by the press. I'm sorry, it's just very upsetting. Well,
Speaker 1: let's move on from there. This is a false confession
Speaker 1: case that has all of the hall marks that we
Speaker 1: see again and again. Just to paint a picture for everyone,
Speaker 1: A week after this un imaginable loss, the police picked
Speaker 1: you and sue your wife up at seven am and
Speaker 1: incharrogated you till one in the morning, So that's eighteen hours.
Speaker 1: And we know that when this process goes on interminably,
Speaker 1: eventually everybody has a breaking point. And even though you
Speaker 1: told him again and again, Larry, I didn't do this, etcetera, etcetera,
Speaker 1: they just wouldn't listen. Is that right? The continue to
Speaker 1: tell me that I wasn't telling him everything he wanted
Speaker 1: to hear, and I didn't understand what he meant at
Speaker 1: that point because I was answering all of his questions.
Speaker 1: I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting
Speaker 1: you to recite over and over again exactly what happened
Speaker 1: when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you
Speaker 1: could not have known that this car was defective, or
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing. He was
Speaker 1: asking what could have happened? Why the accelerator had stuck?
Speaker 1: And I didn't know. I had my shoes off to
Speaker 1: the shoe gets stuck in there was the accelerator sticking.
Speaker 1: Why wasn't it slowing down? Would you take your foot off?
Speaker 1: The guest? But it's supposed to slow down, period, Let's
Speaker 1: face it. There was no explanation that you could have
Speaker 1: provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is a
Speaker 1: very high profile case. The media is all over it,
Speaker 1: and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that
Speaker 1: you must have done this. So then it gets to
Speaker 1: the point where they give you a polygraph. And polygraphs
Speaker 1: are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of
Speaker 1: getting people to false the confess I'm Dr Michael Abramsky.
Speaker 1: I am a clinical and forensic psychologist. At the time
Speaker 1: of the Wild case, I was studying false confessions and
Speaker 1: I was retained by the court to examine the confession.
Speaker 1: So I was provided with the video tape of the
Speaker 1: entire interrogation, the first half an hour to forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: The police officer, Pommitteer built himself as as an expert
Speaker 1: and infallible, and he also did the same thing with
Speaker 1: a polygraph. He said the polygraph could read minds. It
Speaker 1: was infallible, it's never wrong. It gives Delial the test,
Speaker 1: which only consists of a few questions, and he leaves
Speaker 1: the room and he comes back with his head shaking
Speaker 1: and says to Delile, you know you failed the polygraph.
Speaker 1: You're lying The technique is to make the defendant feel
Speaker 1: that their situation is totally hopeless. So basically, you set
Speaker 1: up a dilemma. Since the polygraph is infallible, you think
Speaker 1: you're telling the truth. It puts you into a state
Speaker 1: of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an explanation that
Speaker 1: entails both of those things. So Pomitteer spends hours pumping him,
Speaker 1: and largely it's not asking questions, it's telling him scenarios,
Speaker 1: telling him why he did this, That you're tired and
Speaker 1: families are a burden, and I know how hard your
Speaker 1: life is. So he is empathic with him, tells him
Speaker 1: he understands, implies that you know you're not a bad
Speaker 1: person for this. Lots of people are under stress, they
Speaker 1: do something rash, and the people will be understanding. Basically,
Speaker 1: what he's trying to do is get Larry to make
Speaker 1: incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know
Speaker 1: you're not going to suffer bad punishment for this. Some
Speaker 1: of the things that this man was saying we're actually
Speaker 1: disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me that
Speaker 1: he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd drive
Speaker 1: up really fast behind parked cars and flam on the
Speaker 1: brakes just to scare her. And he asked me if
Speaker 1: I ever wanted to do that. He even talked about
Speaker 1: he gets so mad at his kids, he'd want to
Speaker 1: stick him in a garbage big and throw him in
Speaker 1: a closets, that you ever want to do that? And
Speaker 1: I got angry at him for even the suggesting something
Speaker 1: that heinous to be done to any child. I never
Speaker 1: said I wanted to do that. But then later on
Speaker 1: and interrogation, somehow he had me parriting him. But they
Speaker 1: were not confessions. They were brought about by this man
Speaker 1: instilling guilt in me. Made me feel that I was
Speaker 1: responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there. Palmitt
Speaker 1: He keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself
Speaker 1: and he doesn't, And finally he tries out of scenario
Speaker 1: that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do
Speaker 1: you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He
Speaker 1: tells him that unconscious means that we do certain things
Speaker 1: that we don't really know that we've done them. You know,
Speaker 1: even though you did it, you're not really responsible. Is
Speaker 1: your unconscious that did it, and that starts getting in
Speaker 1: Larry an explanation, and so at some point he makes
Speaker 1: an equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened,
Speaker 1: or he starts questioning pommits here, and he never says
Speaker 1: that he did it, but he starts questions mean and
Speaker 1: implying that maybe that did happen. And then the interrogation
Speaker 1: is over because what he's done is accepted committeers theory
Speaker 1: that he did drive the car into the river and
Speaker 1: that he did want to hurt someone. He just didn't
Speaker 1: know it at the time. But you know, under the law,
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any difference. The police chief himself went
Speaker 1: on the news and proclaimed that Larry Delisle has confessed.
Speaker 1: At that point they almost really needed trial. To his credit,
Speaker 1: the judge did actually suppress the confession, and people are
Speaker 1: probably hearing that saying, oh good. But the fact that
Speaker 1: it didn't matter at that point because they refused to
Speaker 1: change the venue. So it's very important to understand the
Speaker 1: psychological atmosphere was occurring. First, the news stations had a
Speaker 1: stock shot of the car being lifted out of the
Speaker 1: river by a crane, and everybody knew there were four
Speaker 1: dead children in there, and night after night that was playing.
Speaker 1: People then started gathering down by the river, demanding justice
Speaker 1: for these four kids. And then after he was questioned,
Speaker 1: they announced that he had confessed to the crime, which
Speaker 1: of course he had not, but you put that in
Speaker 1: the crowd's mind, it's almost impossible to reverse. The next
Speaker 1: thing that happened was, of course, the suppression hearing, and
Speaker 1: that's where I testified that the confession was involuntary. I
Speaker 1: described the techniques that were used and why what he
Speaker 1: said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo ruled in Delisle's favor,
Speaker 1: and he throughout the confession, except the problem was that
Speaker 1: it had already been in the newspaper, and the retractions
Speaker 1: from the newspaper said things like Lawrence Delisle's statements that
Speaker 1: he intentionally killed his family cannot be used in court
Speaker 1: against them. And when you try to tell people that
Speaker 1: it's invalid, they believe, oh no, the guy just just
Speaker 1: realized that he got himself into trouble. He's just denying
Speaker 1: it now. So they never believe the confession is false.
Speaker 1: They believe the denial of confession as false. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if they have caves in why I
Speaker 1: thought that you could have found someone who didn't own
Speaker 1: a TV or read the newspaper. But short of that,
Speaker 1: you're looking at jurors who are unaware of the tactics
Speaker 1: that we used to elicit that confession, and who can't
Speaker 1: reconcile the idea that anyone we confess to kind and commit.
Speaker 1: But it happens all the damn time, and they charged
Speaker 1: you with four counts of murder one kind of attempt
Speaker 1: at murder. Prosecutor was a guy named Kevin Samowski. He
Speaker 1: painted you as a guy who was overwhelmed by debt.
Speaker 1: The fact of the matter is I was not overwhelmed
Speaker 1: with debt. I owned less than thirteen five and made
Speaker 1: over thirty tho dollars a year. I just got a
Speaker 1: house that they didn't have to make any payments on
Speaker 1: for an entire year. And I take great offense every
Speaker 1: time they keep trying to bring up, oh, hen was
Speaker 1: deeply in debt. As a matter of fact, the headlines
Speaker 1: wanted to point out, oh, he was trying to get
Speaker 1: rid of his burdens. Well, the police were trying to say,
Speaker 1: my debt was my burdens, but the people looked at
Speaker 1: it as my children with my burdens. That's how we're
Speaker 1: trying to convict me. And here's a very very important
Speaker 1: thing to me. Your wife, Sue. Now she's gone through
Speaker 1: the same horrendous loss that you have. And I think
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that maybe went in her position.
Speaker 1: If they had even a sneaking suspicion that you might
Speaker 1: have done it on purpose, she would have been the
Speaker 1: number one witness for the prosecution. She in fact, was
Speaker 1: the only witness to the crime except for some woman
Speaker 1: that was out in her balcony on the eleventh floor
Speaker 1: across the street. Let's not even go there. But she
Speaker 1: didn't turn on you. She was there, she knows exactly
Speaker 1: what happened. She saw my foot off there. She tried
Speaker 1: to help. She was actually demonized by the public for years.
Speaker 1: She had to move away from down River because they
Speaker 1: were harassing her. Somebody tried to break into the house.
Speaker 1: Somebody would call on the phone and leaving threatening messages.
Speaker 1: She couldn't get a job anywhere because of her last name. Oh,
Speaker 1: because she wouldn't turn on you, even though she was
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. So the jury deliberated for nine
Speaker 1: hours over two days. They came back originally tended to.
Speaker 1: The judge sent them back. They came back the next day,
Speaker 1: even one he threatened to keep them through the weekend
Speaker 1: if they didn't come back with a decision. We know
Speaker 1: that in those jury rooms extreme pressure is exerted by
Speaker 1: people who want to go home. But you can send
Speaker 1: a note to the judge. You're allowed to do that
Speaker 1: and just say, your honor, I'm not budging. I'm done here.
Speaker 1: I'd say, people serving juries don't even know you can
Speaker 1: do that. You just send a note to the judge
Speaker 1: and say I'm done, I'm not voting to convict, and
Speaker 1: then the judge has the decision to make the idea
Speaker 1: that so many people like you, Larry, are spending the
Speaker 1: rest of their lives in prison because somebody needed to
Speaker 1: get home, back to their job. This is not a
Speaker 1: unique thing, and it's something that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 1: When they filed back in, what were your thought? I
Speaker 1: could tell when they came in. Some of them were smiling,
Speaker 1: but some of them had their arms crossed and I
Speaker 1: stood up, and when they said guilty, I I couldn't
Speaker 1: stand anymore. I had to sit down or I would
Speaker 1: just pass out. I was just so much shock. If
Speaker 1: this were a boxing match. We won every single day.
Speaker 1: To prosecutor helped prove our case, even when the accelerators
Speaker 1: stuck and the police officers waived the mechanics away, saying,
Speaker 1: oh no, the problems in the car. He had a
Speaker 1: problem was sitting next to you taking notes. He wrote,
Speaker 1: specifically across the top of his notepad, accelerators sticking. Then
Speaker 1: swore under oath, I had no idea why I wrote
Speaker 1: that there was nothing wrong with the car. Bullshit. You
Speaker 1: knew that if mechanics an engineer that was there, would
Speaker 1: have found the problem, it would have proved that I
Speaker 1: was innocent. The big mistake to me, among all the
Speaker 1: other mistakes, was the judge not allowing a change of avenue,
Speaker 1: because you know, maybe you could have gotten a fair trial.
Speaker 1: But what was disheartening too, is that there was a
Speaker 1: problem with that vehicle. That Ford did recall that engine,
Speaker 1: but only on the pickup trucks, not on our station wagon.
Speaker 1: For that year. My lawyer tried to enter it into
Speaker 1: trial at the time, and to judge said that because
Speaker 1: it was not the pickup truck recalled, he wouldn't allow
Speaker 1: him to enter in evidence until the trial was over
Speaker 1: with so the jury never got to hear it. MM.
Speaker 1: So you've been in prison of for thirty years. I
Speaker 1: know you recently survived COVID on top of everything else,
Speaker 1: but can you explain that the prison experience, Wow, that
Speaker 1: wasn't there for my wife at a funeral for our children.
Speaker 1: My grandparents who raised me passed away while I was
Speaker 1: in here. These are just the emotional ones there. This
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the pain that I went
Speaker 1: through dealing with all these people in the beginning that
Speaker 1: I could tell you that the first hang years were horrible.
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, the first five I have had
Speaker 1: more death threats, evil stairs, things thrown at me every day,
Speaker 1: NonStop for five years. I'm surprised I even survived it.
Speaker 1: And then the next five years, instead of being daily,
Speaker 1: it would be once or twice a week, and then
Speaker 1: eventually once or twice a month, and then finally down
Speaker 1: to once or twice a year. Now I can go
Speaker 1: several years before I hear a discouraging word from somebody.
Speaker 1: But I have, over the last two decades made a
Speaker 1: lot of good friends in here. You are the company
Speaker 1: you keep, so I try to keep company with people
Speaker 1: I would have as my friends. And neighbors out in
Speaker 1: the world. Can you describe, you know, a ray of
Speaker 1: light that you know you can identify five. The best
Speaker 1: thing that's ever happened to me was getting on maintenance
Speaker 1: twenty two years ago. I've had the opportunity to learn
Speaker 1: so much about things that I never knew before, so
Speaker 1: much about repairing buildings, clients, repair heating, air conditioning, electrical
Speaker 1: I spent hundreds of dollars on books and thousands of
Speaker 1: hours studying to get as good as I am now.
Speaker 1: I'm very good at what I do today. You've had
Speaker 1: appeals over the years, but it hasn't resulted in any relief.
Speaker 1: Can you explain why that process is dragged on for
Speaker 1: so long? Well, my lawyer, Frank Eamon, did an excellent
Speaker 1: job throughout the entire process. I owe him everything. The
Speaker 1: system itself is very slow. The courts don't care if
Speaker 1: you're innocent or not. They just care. Didn't get a
Speaker 1: fair trial. I didn't get a fair trial, and I
Speaker 1: went through the federal courts where they split politically eight
Speaker 1: to seven. I don't remember for his Democrats Republicans Republicans Democrats.
Speaker 1: Years is to be impartial. You're supposed to vote your
Speaker 1: conscious what you see. You're like a referee in a
Speaker 1: football game. You're supposed to judge everything by what you
Speaker 1: have before you. Every one of the judges said that
Speaker 1: they are disappointed in the state of Michigan for allowing
Speaker 1: suppressed evidence to be released to the media before trial.
Speaker 1: You would think that would get you to the United
Speaker 1: States Supreme Court, but it didn't. I guess some clerk
Speaker 1: putting in there in my case doesn't warrant going before
Speaker 1: the highest court in the land. My life, my constitutional
Speaker 1: rights violated, and that doesn't go before the highest court
Speaker 1: in the land. There's still one remedy left for clemency
Speaker 1: from Governor Whitmer. You've recently submitted your clemency petition. You know,
Speaker 1: clemency is to me something that I've been telling anyone
Speaker 1: who would listen, including people in power, that this is
Speaker 1: an underused power that is given very deliberately to governors
Speaker 1: and presidents because they are meant to serve as the
Speaker 1: last sort of stop gap to prevent injustices from being
Speaker 1: allowed to stand. And your case cries out for it,
Speaker 1: as I think anyone who's just listened to this podcast agrees.
Speaker 1: So is there anything people can do to help generate
Speaker 1: momentum for your clemency petition. You could write the pro board,
Speaker 1: try to contact the governor. I've got thousands of signatures
Speaker 1: on this petition begging her to hear my case to
Speaker 1: show clemency. Visit the petition website sign a petition. If
Speaker 1: she can hear that people are concerned, she may do something.
Speaker 1: We're going to put a link to the petition in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Please use your voice. Let's help bring
Speaker 1: Larry home together. This nightmare has gone on for far
Speaker 1: too long. Larry. We have a section of the show
Speaker 1: that is my favorite part each episode. First of all,
Speaker 1: I thank you for being here and for your courage
Speaker 1: and for sharing your story. So thank you, Larry Delisle.
Speaker 1: You know our thoughts are with you, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: build momentum for you with this podcast. This actually the
Speaker 1: show is called Closing Arguments, and this is where I
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off. I'm going to kick back, close
Speaker 1: my eyes and just listen to your words. First off,
Speaker 1: I would like to say that I am so proud
Speaker 1: of so many activists out there who are protesting both
Speaker 1: social and racial injustice, the protesting against wrongful convictions. You
Speaker 1: have to salute our heroes on the front line in
Speaker 1: healthcare who are taking everyone who has COVID nineteen. All
Speaker 1: these tragic deaths that are happening in everyone's family. My
Speaker 1: heart goes out to you. I would like to thank
Speaker 1: Ashley Ross and Carla Beck for everything they've done to
Speaker 1: get to this point. They have been very staunch supporters.
Speaker 1: They started the petition, they've supported the petition, and I
Speaker 1: love them to death. There are so many people that
Speaker 1: have written me since the Netflix documentary came out. Bless
Speaker 1: you all. Thank you very much. Please please stay safe
Speaker 1: out there. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm
Speaker 1: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really
Speaker 1: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
Speaker 1: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence
Speaker 1: Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
Speaker 1: Wrongful Action podcast Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom is a
Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal
Speaker 1: Company Number one