1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: On August third, nineteen eighty nine, after a long, hot 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: summer day, Lariot Sue Delisle took their four children out 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: for ice cream and to watch the boats pass by 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: on the Detroit River. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: When Larry pulled out on the. 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Street that dead ended at the river, the mechanical defect 7 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: in their station wagon caused the accelerator to stick. The 8 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: car sped off uncontrollably, and laryer Sue's panicked efforts could 9 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: not save them from launching into the Detroit River. Larry 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: and Sue narrowly survived, but their children Brian, Melissa, Kate, 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: and Emily tragically did not. 12 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: When the water. 13 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: Locked wreck was pulled from the river, the accelerator stuck 14 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: again during testing, an issue raised by hundreds of others 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: about that very make and model station wagon. It was 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: a tragic accident, but that wasn't good enough for the police, 17 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: the media, or the people of Downriver, Michigan. After eighteen 18 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: hours of interrogation and the usual tricks, Larry tacitly creed 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: to hypotheticals posed by the interrogator. This couldn't pass muster 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: as a confession for a court of law, but it 21 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: was quickly submitted to the Court of Public opinion when 22 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: the police chief went on TV and said that Larry 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: Delile had confessed, effectively poisoning the entire jury pool. Larry 24 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: was convicted of four counts of murder and one count 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: of attempted murder, despite Sue Delile's unwavering account of his 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: actual innocence. This tragic accident stole their four children, and 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: the state compounded that loss by stealing what has become 28 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: over three long decades. 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: Of Larry's life. 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: To me, of course, I'm your. 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: Host, and today my heart is heavy because of the 34 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: story you're about to hear and the man you're about 35 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: to meet. I'm proud to call him a friend, and 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: I'm proud to be part of the team that's helping 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: to try to bring justice long delayed to this awful case. So, 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: without further ado, Larry Delisle, Welcome to ronful Conviction. 39 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: I'm sorry you have to be here, but I'm glad 40 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: you're here. 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: Humble and honored to be here with you today. 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: And Larry is calling us from prison in Michigan. Where 43 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: exactly are you, Larry. 44 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 3: I'm in Coldwater, Michigan, which is a Lakeland correctional facility. 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: And what you've gone through is surely unimaginable to almost anyone. 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, the multiple tragic aspects of this case include 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: obviously the loss of your family, but also the persecution 48 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: that was wrongfully inflicted upon you by people that really 49 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: should have known better. And of course your wrongful incarceration 50 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: now for over three decades is another thing that nobody 51 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: could even begin to imagine. But I want to go 52 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: back to the beginning. Did you grow up in Michigan. 53 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 3: Yes, my grandparents raised me from age throughout two years 54 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: of old. 55 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: I mean, your childhood was haunted by a tragedy, A 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: separate tragedy, right, I mean, I don't know how much 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: one person is supposed to take in their life, and 58 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: I don't even know if you want to talk about that, 59 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: but it does come into focus with this case. 60 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: As this goes on. 61 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: You're talking about my father committing suicide. 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: Yes, of course I got a. 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: Call in the middle of the night early eighty eight 64 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: that my father had committed suicide. He drove down somewhere 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 3: by the river and put a gun to his head. 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Ironically, in the same vehicle that ended up being the 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: central figure in this awful tragedy that befell your family. 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: Most people would not have wanted to drive the vehicle. 69 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 3: I didn't want to drive the vehicle. But my father's wife, 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: she wanted to give us something because my sister and 71 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: I signed away our rights to his house because we 72 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 3: didn't want her to have to remortgage or have to move, 73 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 3: So she gave me the car the option of keeping 74 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 3: it or selling it. At the time, we had a 75 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 3: brand new nineteen eighty seven Ford Aerostarter we had just 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 3: bought to go to Disneyland November of eighty seven, when 77 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 3: my father had committed suicide, we were talking about getting 78 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 3: rid of the aerostar, getting a cheaper vehicle so we 79 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: can knock our bills down to a point where we 80 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 3: can afford to buy a house. Well, when my father 81 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: committed suicide, the place that I worked for tiremen, God 82 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 3: bless them, they had taken the vehicle. They had it 83 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 3: completely cleaned on the inside. Now, when I went there 84 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: that night to drive the vehicle, I had mixed them. 85 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: When I got in, I started crying right away. But 86 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: after a few minutes, I felt calm because my father 87 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 3: had taken me everywhere with him when I was younger 88 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 3: and older in the station wagon. He loved station wagon. 89 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: I think that was his second or third one. So 90 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 3: when I drove the vehicle, I felt at peace. Now 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: it was up to my wife. She drove it. She 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: loved it because it had a lot of power. It 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: just happened to have an intrinsic value as far as 94 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 3: helping us to achieve our goals, which would have been 95 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: to get a house for our children, to get a 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: house for us. 97 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: Right, well, with four kids, you have obviously in you're 98 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: a mechanic, and Larry is known in the prison as 99 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: someone who can fix basically anything. But even still raising 100 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: four kids on that salary, it can't be an easy task. 101 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: And this case was featured in the Netflix documentary series 102 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: of Confession Tapes by the wonderful Kelly Laudenberg, and I encourage. 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: Everyone to watch that episode. 104 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: But let's go back to the night of this awful accident, 105 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: and we're talking about the evening of August third, nineteen 106 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: eighty nine, and a ninety degree hot summer day and 107 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: the hottest part of the summer. 108 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 3: This was a very, very hot day, and it was 109 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: a very busy day. I worked close to ten hours 110 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 3: that day, running around on my feet. I got out 111 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: of there as quickly as I could, got the kids 112 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 3: in the car, and away we went. 113 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: Larry and his wife and the children, Brian, Melissa, Kadie 114 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and Emily had gone for ice cream, and we're watching 115 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: the boats along the Detroit River, which I know the 116 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: kids enjoyed doing that. You had issues with your legs. 117 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: I was just not properly hydrated, and it caused my 118 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: muscles to cramp up at different points. I've had problems 119 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 3: most of my youth with cramping in my legs. 120 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: It actually happened to me in the gym this morning 121 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: when I was stretching. So it's not an uncommon thing, 122 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: especially when you're dehydrated, like on a hot summer day. 123 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: Which was what the situation was with you. 124 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: But there are a number of things that played into 125 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: this unspeakable disaster. And what really happened was as you 126 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: were leaving to go home, you were on Eureka Road, 127 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: which dead ends at the river. You stepped on the gas, 128 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: your leg cramped right up. The car shot off in pain. 129 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: You reached down to pull your foot off the gas, 130 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: but the car continued to accelerate. Now you didn't know 131 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: it at the time, but there was a deep beact 132 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: that caused your accelerated jam, propelling the car with the 133 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: six of you inside, terrified and screaming through the barricade 134 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: at the end of Eureka Road, right into the Detroit River. 135 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you must have relived it thousands of times 136 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: in your head. 137 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: Now I try that too. It's still painful today. When 138 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 3: the accelerator stuck, it threw me off. I didn't know 139 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: what was stuck. I got my foot off the gas. 140 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: My foot was off. My wife even testified my foot 141 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 3: was off. She saw that my foot was off, but 142 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: the car did not slow down. Before I could even 143 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: do anything further, she reached over in an attempt to 144 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: help me. It was an inadvertent act, but it startled 145 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: me for a second and I froze, and before I 146 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 3: could decide what I was going to do, we ran 147 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: out of street. The whole thing took seven to ten seconds, 148 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: according to officials, seven to ten seconds. 149 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: We're talking about a section of the street that was 150 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: three hundred and ninety six feet long. We've already talked 151 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: about the fact that the car had a powerful engine 152 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: and it wouldn't take any car very long to cover 153 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: its basically just a little bit further than a football field. 154 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: So add to I mean, all the other elements of 155 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: pure panic and terror, the fact that the kids are 156 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: in the car. I'm sure they're screaming, wife's grabbing a wheel, 157 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. You're staring at the water. And 158 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: on top of that, you didn't know how to swim. 159 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: Right, No, I cannot. I can tread water thanks to 160 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 3: my high school coach. But that's about it. But in 161 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: the impact itself, I was thrown forward. Half of my 162 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 3: head hit around the weisor area. There was a bright light, 163 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 3: a shot of pain from my neck all the way 164 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: down my spine. So I was disoriented. Once I was 165 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: in the water, I don't even know how I got 166 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: out of the car well. 167 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's impossible to probably imagine. And 168 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: the fact is that this particular vehicle had known issues. 169 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: There were over one hundred people who had reported the 170 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: accelerator jamming on this exact make and model station Wagon. 171 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: It was a seventy seven Ford Ltd. Station Wagon four 172 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: SIXTQB against four barrel carburetor. 173 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: There was a mechanic who examined the car, Jim Kolquell, 174 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: and he had a identified three separate defects, any one 175 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: of which could have caused us uncontrolled acceleration. One was 176 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: a kink in the accelerated cable that caused the cable 177 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: to stick. Secondly, the throttle plates could be heard scraping 178 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: inside the carburetor. And thirdly, the engine mount was broken 179 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: in this vehicle, which caused the tilt of the engine, 180 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: and the tilting pulled at the accelerator cable. So the 181 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: combination of these factors turned deadly. And as it turns out, 182 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: they chose to ignore their own test because when they 183 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: tested the vehicle after it was pulled out of the river, 184 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: in one of the times when they test drove it, 185 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: the accelerator did in fact jam. 186 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 3: Yes, when they were testing the vehicle and the accelerator 187 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 3: had stuck. You had two mechanics there, one for the 188 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: state who actually was just a bus mechanic who couldn't 189 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 3: even start the vehicle for testing. We had an ASE 190 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 3: certified master mechanic for us who is the one who 191 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: found all the problems with the vehicle, had to start 192 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 3: it for them before they could even test it in 193 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: an engineer. They were all there today that the test 194 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: happened when the accelerator stuck. The arresting officer. He was 195 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 3: sitting next to the State trooper sergeant during their tests, 196 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 3: and they're testing it with his foot on the accelerator, 197 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: testing the brakes to see how long it would take 198 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: to stop the vehicle. And I imagine it would be 199 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 3: quite a long ways with only manual brakes work. And 200 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: you don't have the power assist, because when you're accelerating, 201 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 3: you don't have power assist. Your power brakes don't work. 202 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: You have to stand on them to get it to stop. 203 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: In the State trooper sergeant, and he had to do 204 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: that so hard he broke the seat any case, the 205 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 3: arresting officer he's taking notes. He wrote across the top 206 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 3: of his notepad in bold letters, accelerator sticking, then swore 207 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 3: under oath when he was up on the witness stand. 208 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: He had no idea why. He wrote that there was 209 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: nothing wrong with the car when the accelerator stuck. Mechanic 210 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: to master mechanic and an engineer, they came running over 211 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 3: to the vehicle, according to my lawyer, and the state 212 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 3: trooper waved them away. He said, no, no, the problems 213 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 3: inside the car. You have engineers and mechanics there to 214 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: confind it. Get out of the car and let him 215 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 3: find out what's sticking right now. And he refused to 216 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: do it because the arresting officer probably didn't want them 217 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 3: to find it, because if they found a problem, it 218 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: would approve what I've been saying from the very beginning 219 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 3: and what my wife had been saying from the very beginning. 220 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,319 Speaker 3: The accelerator stuck, because it did for you. He shut 221 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: it off. He testified that he shut it off because 222 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: it startled him. He's six four to three hundred pounds 223 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: and it startled him. 224 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 2: You expected to remain come. 225 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm expected to remain calm. He said. He was 226 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: going to start the vehicle back up and put it 227 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 3: in gear and see how fast it would go. At 228 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: that point, all you had to do was put it 229 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: in gear. When he shut it off, avoided the test, 230 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 3: and they never got a chance to test it again 231 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: because by the time they gave it over to the 232 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: since the engine had been sold roughly treated during their 233 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: acceleration test, that the engine blew up, end of testing, 234 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: end of proving beyond reasonable doubt that there was a 235 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: problem with the station lag. 236 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. 237 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping. 238 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: People improve their lives. 239 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: For more than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners 240 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform. 241 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: By empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits, and working 242 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems 243 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: in our communities and empowers those closest to the problems 244 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences through 245 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: the First Step Act, empowering community based programs and help 246 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: people re enter society, and now working to bridge divide 247 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: in our communities. To learn how you may get involved, 248 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: visit Standtogether dot org slash conviction. In a tragedy like this, 249 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: community members have a very difficult time reconciling the fact 250 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: that these type of tragic accidents happen. When a child 251 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: is lost, it's easier psychologically for people to assign blame 252 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: to someone because the randomness of it is too terrifying, 253 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: especially for people with children to imagine and in this case, 254 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: I think that, as well as other sort of confirmation 255 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: biases took hold. You were targeted by the media. They 256 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: hounded you and basically set up camp outside the house 257 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: of grieving parents until you agreed to give an interview. 258 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: And then it becomes and we've seen this in so 259 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: many cases, whether it's Amanda Knox or so many others, 260 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: where the media or the authorities feel you're either too 261 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: sad or not sad enough, or too hysterical or too calm. 262 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 3: I don't think that people are aware of the fact 263 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: that that first interview I did in the backyard, that 264 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 3: I had had a couple of valumes given to me 265 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 3: by a family member, and I don't even remember the interview. 266 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: All I remember was an airplane going over the top. 267 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 3: So if I didn't show emotion for people, it just 268 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: makes me angry that they're going to point to the 269 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: fact that I'm not classical as far as how I 270 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 3: was supposed to react to losing my children being hounded 271 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: by the press. I'm sorry, it's just very upsetting. 272 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: Well, let's move on from there. 273 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: This is a false confession case that has all of 274 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: the hallmarks that we see again and again just to 275 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: paint a picture for everyone. A week after this imaginable loss, 276 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: the police picked you and Sue your wife up at 277 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: seven am and interrogated you till one in the morning. 278 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: So that's eighteen hours. And we know that when this 279 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: process goes on interminably, eventually everybody has a breaking point. 280 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: And even though you told him again and again I 281 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: didn't do this, et cetera, et cetera, they just wouldn't listen. 282 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: Is that right. 283 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: The continue to tell me that I wasn't telling him 284 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: everything he wanted to hear, and I didn't understand what 285 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: he meant at that point because I was answering all 286 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: of his questions. 287 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,479 Speaker 1: I can't leave alone the idea that they were expecting 288 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: you to recite over and over again exactly what happened 289 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: when you didn't actually know what happened. In fact, you 290 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: could not have known that this car was defective, or 291 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have been driving the damn thing. 292 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 3: He was asking what could have happened? Why the accelerator 293 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: had stuck? And I didn't know I had my shoes 294 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 3: off that the shoe gets stuck in there was the 295 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 3: accelerator sticking. Why wasn't it slowing down. Would you take 296 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: your foot off the guests It's supposed to slow down. Period. 297 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: Let's face it, there was no explanation that you could 298 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: have provided that would have satisfied them. Because this is 299 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: a very high profile case. The media is all over it, 300 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: and everyone had already come to their own conclusions that 301 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: you must have done this. So then it gets to 302 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: the point where they give you a polygraph. And polygraphs 303 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: are wildly inaccurate anyway, but they're effective in terms of 304 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: getting people to false they confess. 305 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 4: I'm doctor Michael Obravski. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist. 306 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 4: At the time of the wildcase, I was studying false 307 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,679 Speaker 4: confessions and I was retained by the court to examine 308 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 4: the confession. So I was provided with the videotape of 309 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: the entire interrogation, the first half an hour to forty 310 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 4: five minutes. The police officer, Palmitteer built himself up as 311 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 4: an expert and infallible, and he also did the same 312 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 4: thing with a polygraph. He said the polygraph could read minds, 313 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 4: it was infallible, it's never wrong. It gives delial the 314 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 4: tests which only consists of a few questions, and he 315 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 4: leaves the room and he comes back with his head 316 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 4: shaking and says to de Liial, you know you fail 317 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 4: the polygraph. You're lying. The technique is to make the 318 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 4: defendant feel that their situation is totally hopeless. So basically 319 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: you set up a dilemma since the polygraph is infallible, 320 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 4: you think you're telling the truth. 321 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: It puts you into. 322 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 4: A state of cognitive dissonance. You have to find an 323 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 4: explanation that entails both of those things. So Palmitteer spends 324 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 4: hours pumping him, and largely it's not asking questions, it's 325 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 4: telling him scenarios, telling him why he did this, that oh, 326 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 4: you're tired and families are burden, and I know how 327 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 4: hard your life is. So he is empathic with him, 328 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 4: tells him he understands, implies that you know you're not 329 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 4: a bad person for this. Lots of people are under stress, 330 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 4: they do something rash and the people will be understanding. Basically, 331 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 4: what he's trying to do is get Larry to make 332 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: incriminating statements, and the implication is always that you know 333 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 4: you're not going to suffer a bad punishment for this. 334 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 3: Some of the things that this man was saying we're 335 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 3: actually disturbing to hear. He would try to convince me 336 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 3: that he liked to scare his wife. He said he'd 337 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 3: drive up really fast behind parked cars and slam on 338 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 3: the brakes just to scare her. And he asked me 339 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: if I ever wanted to do that. He even talked 340 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 3: about he gets so mad at his kids he'd want 341 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 3: to stick them in a garbage bag and throw them 342 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 3: in a clount. He said, you ever want to do that? 343 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: And I got angry at him for even suggesting something 344 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 3: that heinous to be done to any child. I never 345 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 3: said I wanted to do that, But then later on 346 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 3: in his his interrogation, somehow he had me parroting him. 347 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: But they were not confessions. They were brought about by 348 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 3: this man instilling guilt in me, making me feel that 349 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 3: I was responsible above and beyond the mechanical problems on there. 350 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 4: Palmitteer keeps on trying scenarios where Larry will implicate himself 351 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: and he doesn't, And finally he tries out a scenario 352 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 4: that makes Larry bite. He basically says to Larry, do 353 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 4: you know about the unconscious? And Larry does not. He 354 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: tells them that unconscious means that we do certain things 355 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 4: that we don't really know that we've done them. You know, 356 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 4: even though you did it, you're not really responsible because 357 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 4: you're unconscious that did it, And that starts giving Larry 358 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 4: an explanation, and so at some point he makes an 359 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 4: equivocal statement such as you think that could have happened, 360 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 4: or he starts questioning Palmitteer, and he never says that 361 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 4: he did it, but he starts questioning and implying that 362 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 4: maybe that did happen, and then the interrogation is over 363 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 4: because what he's done is accepted Palmeteer's theory that he 364 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 4: did drive the car into the river and that he 365 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 4: did want hurt someone. He just didn't know it at 366 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 4: the time. But you know, under the law, that doesn't 367 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 4: make any difference. 368 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: The police chief himself went on the news and proclaimed 369 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: that Larry Delal has confessed. At that point, they only 370 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: needed trial. To his credit of the judge did actually 371 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: suppress the confession, and people are probably hearing that saying, 372 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: oh good. But the fact is it didn't matter at 373 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: that point because they refused to change venue. 374 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 4: So it's very important to understand the psychological atmosphere was 375 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 4: occurring first, the news stations had a stock shot of 376 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 4: the car being lifted out of the river by a crane, 377 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 4: and everybody knew there were four dead children in there, 378 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: and night after night that was playing. People then started 379 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 4: gathering down by the river, demanding justice for these four kids. 380 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 4: And then after he was questioned, they announced that he 381 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 4: had confessed to the crime, which of course he had not. 382 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 4: But you put that in the crowd's mind, it's almost 383 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 4: impossible to reverse. The next thing that happened was, of course, 384 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 4: the suppression hearing, and that's where I testified that the 385 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 4: confession was involuntary. I described the techniques that were used 386 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 4: and why what he said was not voluntary. Judge Colombo 387 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 4: ruled in Delile's favor, and he threw out the confession. 388 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 4: Except the problem was that it had already been in 389 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 4: the newspaper, and the retractions from the newspaper said things like, 390 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 4: Lawrence Delile's statements that he intentionally killed his family cannot 391 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 4: be used in court against them. And when you try 392 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 4: to tell people that it's invalid, they believe, oh no, 393 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 4: the guy just just realized that he got himself into trouble. 394 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 4: He's just denying it now. So They never believed the 395 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: confession is false. They believe the denial of it confession 396 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 4: as false. 397 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if they have caves and why. 398 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: I thot that you could have found someone who didn't 399 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: on the TV or read the newspaper. But short of that, 400 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: you're looking at yours or unaware of the tactics that 401 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: were used to elicit that confession. And who can't reconcile 402 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the idea that anyone would confess to a crime they 403 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: didn't commit. But it happens all the damn time, and 404 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: they charged you with four counts of murder. One kind 405 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: of attempted murder. Prosecutor was a guy named Kevin Samowski. 406 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: He painted you as a guy who was overwhelmed by debt. 407 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: The fact of the matter is I was not overwhelmed 408 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 3: with debt. I owned less than thirteen to five and 409 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: made over thirty thousand dollars a year. I just got 410 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: a house that they didn't have to make any payments 411 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 3: on for an entire year. And I take great offense 412 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 3: every time they keep trying to bring up, oh, he 413 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 3: was deeply in debt. As a matter of fact, the 414 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: headlines wanted to point out, oh he was trying to 415 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: get rid of his burdens. Well, the police were trying 416 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 3: to say, my debt was my burdens, but the people 417 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: looked at it as my children were my burdens. That's 418 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 3: how it were trying to convict me. 419 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 2: And here's a very very important thing to me. Your wife, Sue. 420 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: Now she's gone through the same horrendous boss that you have. 421 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's fair to say that maybe when 422 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: in her position, if they had even a sneaking suspicion 423 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: that you might have done it on purpose, she would 424 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: have been the number one witness for the prosecution. She 425 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: in fact, was the only witness to the crime, except 426 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: for some woman that was out on her balcony on 427 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: the eleventh floor across the street. 428 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: Let's not even go there. But she didn't turn on you. 429 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 3: She was there, She knows exactly what happened. She saw 430 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 3: my foot off there, she tried to help. She was 431 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,239 Speaker 3: actually demonized by the public for years. She had to 432 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 3: move away from down River because they were harassing her. 433 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: Somebody tried to break into the house. Somebody would call 434 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: on the phone leaving threatening messages. She couldn't get a 435 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 3: job anywhere because of their last name. 436 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: Well, because she wouldn't turn on you even though she 437 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: was doing the right thing. So the jury deliberated for 438 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: nine hours over two days. 439 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 3: They came back originally ten to two. The judge sent 440 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 3: them back. They came back the next day eleven to one. 441 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 3: He's threatened to keep them through the weekend if they 442 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 3: didn't come back with a decision. 443 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: We know that in those jury rooms extreme pressure is 444 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: exerted by people who want to go home. But you 445 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: can send a note to the judge. You're allowed to 446 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: do that and just say, your honor, I'm not budging, 447 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: I'm done here. I'd say ninety nine percent people serve 448 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: on juries don't even know you could do that. You 449 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: just send a note to the judge and say I'm done, 450 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: I'm not voted to convict, and then the judge has 451 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: the decision to make the idea that so many people 452 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: like you, Larry, are spending the rest of their lives 453 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: in prison because somebody needed to get home. 454 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 2: Back to their job. 455 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: This is not a unique thing, and it's something that 456 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: needs to be addressed. When they filed back in, what 457 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: were you thought. 458 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 3: I could tell when they came in some of them 459 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 3: were smiling but some of them had their arms crossed, 460 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 3: and I stood up, and when they said guilty, I 461 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 3: couldn't stand anymore. I had to sit down or I 462 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 3: would just pass out. I was so much shock. If 463 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 3: this were a boxing match, we won every single day. 464 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 3: To prosecutor helped prove our case, even when the accelerator 465 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 3: stuck and the police officers waved the mechanics away, saying, oh, no, 466 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: the problems in the car, Yeah, the problem was sitting 467 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 3: next to you taking notes. He wrote specifically across the 468 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: top of his notepad, accelerator sticking, then swore under oath, 469 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: I had no idea why I wrote that there was 470 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 3: nothing wrong with the car. Bullshit. You knew that if 471 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 3: mechanics an engineer that was there, would have found the problem, 472 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 3: it would have proved that I was innocent. 473 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: The big mistake to me, among all the other mistakes, 474 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: was judge not allowing a change of venue, because you know, 475 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: maybe you could have gotten a fair trial. 476 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: What was disheartening, too, is that there was a problem 477 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 3: with that vehicle. That Ford did recall that engine, but 478 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 3: only on the pickup trucks, not on our station wagon. 479 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 3: For that year, my lawyer tried to enter it into 480 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 3: trial at the time, and the judge said that because 481 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: it was not the pickup truck recalled, he wouldn't allow 482 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 3: him to enter it in evidence until the trial was 483 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 3: over with, so the jury never got to hear it. 484 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: So you've been in prison of for thirty years. I 485 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: know you recently survived COVID on top of everything else, 486 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: But can you explain that the prison experience. 487 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 3: Oh that wasn't there for my wife at the funeral 488 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 3: for our children. My grandparents who raised me passed away 489 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 3: while I was in here. These are just the emotional 490 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 3: ones there. This has nothing to do with the pain 491 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 3: that I went through dealing with all these people in 492 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 3: the beginning. I could tell you that the first ten 493 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: years were horrible. Matter of fact, the first five I 494 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: have had more death threats, evil stars, things thrown at 495 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 3: me every day, NonStop for five years. I'm surprised I 496 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,919 Speaker 3: even survived it. And then the next five years, instead 497 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: of being daily, it would be once or twice a week, 498 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: and then eventually once or twice a month, and then 499 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 3: finally down to once or twice a year. Now I 500 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 3: can go several years before I hear a discouraging words 501 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: from somebody but I have over the last two decades 502 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 3: made a lot of good friends in here. You are 503 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: the company you keep, so I try to keep company 504 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: with people I would have as my friends and neighbors out. 505 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: In the world. 506 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Can you describe a ray of light that you know 507 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: you can identify. 508 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: The best thing that's ever happened to me was getting 509 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 3: on maintenance twenty two years ago. I've had the opportunity 510 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 3: to learn so much about things that I never knew before, 511 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 3: so much about repairing buildings, clients, repair heating, air conditioning, 512 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: electrical I spent one hundreds of dollars on books and 513 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 3: thousands of hours studying to get as good as I 514 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: am now. I'm very good at what I do today. 515 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: You've had appeals over the years, but it hasn't resulted 516 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: in any relief. Can you explain why that process is 517 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: dragged on for so long? 518 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: Well, my lawyer, Frank Eman, did an excellent job throughout 519 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 3: the entire process. I owe him everything. The system itself 520 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 3: is very slow. The courts don't care if you're innocent 521 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: or not. They just care did get a fair trial. 522 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: I didn't get a fair trial, and I went through 523 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: the federal courts where they split politically eight to seven. 524 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: I don't remember if for his Democrats Republicans Republicans. Democrats 525 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: sposed to be impartial. You're supposed to vote your conscious 526 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: what you see. You're like a referee in a football game. 527 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 3: You're supposed to judge everything by what you have before you. 528 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: Every one of the judges said that they are disappointed 529 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 3: in the state of Michigan for allowing suppressed evidence to 530 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 3: be released to the media before trial. You would think 531 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 3: that would get you to the United States Supreme Court, 532 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 3: but it didn't. I guess some clerk putting in there 533 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 3: in my case doesn't warrant going before the highest court 534 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 3: in the land. My life, my constitutional rights violated, and 535 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 3: that doesn't go before the highest court in the land. 536 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: There's still one remedy left for clemency from Governor Whitmer. 537 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: You've recently submitted your clemency petition. You know, clemency is 538 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: to me something that I've been telling anyone who would listen, 539 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: including people in power, that this is an underused power 540 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: that is given very deliberately to governors and presidents because 541 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: they are meant to serve as the last sort of 542 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: stop gap to prevent injustices from being allowed to stand, 543 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: and your case cries out for it, as I think 544 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: anyone who's just listened to this podcast agrees. So is 545 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: there anything people can do to help generate momentum for 546 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: your clemency petition? 547 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 3: You could write the pro board, try to contact the governor. 548 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: I've got thousands of signatures on this petition begging her 549 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: to hear my case to show clemency. Visit the petition 550 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: website sign a petition that she can hear that people 551 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 3: are concerned she may do something. 552 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: We're going to put a link to the petition in 553 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: the show notes. Please use your voice. Let's help bring 554 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: Larry home together. This nightmare has gone on for far 555 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: too long. 556 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: Larry. 557 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: We have a section of the show that is my 558 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: favorite part each episode. First of all, I thank you 559 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: for being here and for your courage and for sharing 560 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: your story. So thank you, Larry Delile. You know our 561 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: thoughts are with you, and we're going to build momentum 562 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: for you with this podcast. This actually the show is 563 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: called Closing Arguments, and this is where I turned my 564 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: microphone off. I'm going to kick back, close my eyes 565 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: and just listen to your words. 566 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 3: First off, I would like to say that I am 567 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 3: so proud of so many activists out there who are 568 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 3: protesting both social and racial injustice, the protesting against wrongful convictions. 569 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: You have to salute our heroes on the front line 570 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: in healthcare who are taking everyone who has COVID nineteen. 571 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: All these tragic deaths that are happening in everyone's family. 572 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 3: My heart goes out to you. I would like to 573 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 3: thank Ashley Roth and Carla Beck for everything they've done 574 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 3: to get to this point. They have been very staunch supporters. 575 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 3: They started a petition, they've supported a petition, and I 576 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,479 Speaker 3: love them to death. There are so many people that 577 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 3: have written me since the Netflix documentary came out. Bless 578 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 3: you all. Thank you very much. Please please stay safe 579 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 3: out there. 580 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you 581 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 582 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: It really helps. 583 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence Project, and 584 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 585 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 586 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: to innescenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and 587 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor 588 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is 589 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 590 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: Be sure to. 591 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 592 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: at Ronful Podcast. Wrangful Conviction with Jason Flaum is a 593 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 594 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: Company Number one