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Speaker 1: I always thought it was called a buck strap, but

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Speaker 1: that's not what it is. It's a flank strap. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the you know, people think that it squeezes their balls,

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Speaker 1: and by day buck, that's actually not true.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying there's an opening there for a new product.

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Speaker 3: That might make them buck a little harder. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Hey there, I'm Ed Helms, and welcome to Snapoo.

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Speaker 2: And I'm kel Pen and welcome to here we go again.

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Speaker 3: This week.

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Speaker 1: We are here together doing a special joint episode of

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Speaker 1: our shows because hey, we're both funny guys who love

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Speaker 1: history and storytelling. And you know what that means. It's synergy, people,

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Speaker 1: It means synergy. First, I'm going to take you through

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Speaker 1: a wild Snapfoo about a town that decided to throw

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Speaker 1: caution to the wind and secede from the Union way

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Speaker 1: back in eighteen fifty, only to realize it would leave

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Speaker 1: them him a little thirsty or perhaps a little high

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Speaker 1: and dry.

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Speaker 2: And then I'm going to walk us through a discussion

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Speaker 2: with journalist and historian Richard Kreichner about the continued and

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Speaker 2: very recent secession movements today. Think about like col exit

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Speaker 2: or tech sit or the Greater Idaho movement, which sounds

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Speaker 2: like a brewery but really isn't. Let's see why the

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Speaker 2: same shit keeps happening again and again and again.

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Speaker 3: This really feels like synergy.

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Speaker 1: This is like like our podcasts that they just they

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Speaker 1: merge so beautifully. I'm so excited that your podcast is

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Speaker 1: finally out in the world, and I just I just

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Speaker 1: think it's smart and terrific.

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Speaker 3: I think you are smart terrific. Thanks and full disclosure

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Speaker 3: to our listeners.

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Speaker 1: Cal is working with my podcast company, Snafoo Media, and

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Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer on his show. I ask all

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Speaker 1: my guests on snaphu, do you have any specific snaphoo

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Speaker 1: from your life that you can.

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Speaker 3: Tell us about? Oh, Man, can be huge, can be tiny,

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: So many there are so many, I'll tell you for

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Speaker 2: folks who don't know. I took it to year sabbatical

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Speaker 2: from acting with the intent to always come back acting

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Speaker 2: and performing as my first love. But I was the

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Speaker 2: President's liaison to young Americans and Asian Americans and Pacific

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Speaker 2: Islanders in an office called the Office of Public Engagement.

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Speaker 2: Think of it as like an outreach office. And on

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Speaker 2: my third day, the National Security Council.

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Speaker 3: Are you in the White House, in.

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Speaker 2: The White House, in the actual White House, they add

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Speaker 2: me to a massive email chain. And these email chains

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Speaker 2: have like one hundred people on them, real serious national

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Speaker 2: security people in those days, and everything in government is

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Speaker 2: an acronym, right, So like, for example, if you get

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Speaker 2: an email from the National Security Council, it'll say National

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Speaker 2: Security Council. Then any other time in the email, it'll

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Speaker 2: just say NSC. And so they had they said, you know,

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Speaker 2: plus cal cal because you're the president's new the aison

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Speaker 2: to the Asian American community, you should know about this

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Speaker 2: delegation from the Philippines that's meeting at the White House.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that you should know is about this

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Speaker 2: terror group in the Philippines that you might get questions on.

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Speaker 2: They're called the Moro Islamic Liberation Front. And then in

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Speaker 2: parentheses it just said MILF. And then the rest of

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Speaker 2: the email, I'm not working with you. The rest of

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Speaker 2: the email said MILF is considered highly dangerous. MILF is

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Speaker 2: known to recruit young men, and then things like things

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Speaker 2: like you know, many young men grow to the to

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Speaker 2: regret their affiliation with MILF over time.

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Speaker 3: This is the opposite of a snapoo this is delightful.

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Speaker 1: I love that there are these little, these little nuggets

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Speaker 1: of governmental awkwardness.

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Speaker 2: Great. So I thought this was so wonderful that in

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Speaker 2: my head, I'm at my desk laughing my ass off.

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Speaker 2: I hit reply all and I wrote, Yo, their main

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Speaker 2: terror group are the MILFs. Amazing, And I hit send.

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Speaker 2: And as soon as I hit send, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you idiot, you are not in a writer's room at Universal.

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Speaker 2: You are in the White House on an email chain

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Speaker 2: with the National Security Council. And I couldn't unsend it.

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Speaker 2: And I and it like it was silent after that.

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Speaker 2: And in the hallway, coworkers, many of whom in the

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Speaker 2: in the pod world you all know a lot of

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Speaker 2: the Pod Save America guys, and Tommy Vietort and Ben

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Speaker 2: Rhodes and these guys I worked with at the time.

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Speaker 2: In the hallway, we're like, yo, that you was so funny.

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Speaker 2: We were all thinking it, like, will one of you

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Speaker 2: please hit reply all and just say lol, that's all

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Speaker 2: I need. I just need one of you to l

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Speaker 2: ol me. And they all were like, hell, no, man,

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Speaker 2: this is gonna be a public record one day. I

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Speaker 2: just don't want my name associated with you. Calling out

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Speaker 2: the milk thing. So that was my one of my

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Speaker 2: professional snatfoods.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I love it. You know.

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Speaker 1: The only thing that would have made that snapoo better

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Speaker 1: is if Obama himself had like walked up into your off,

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Speaker 1: like leaning against the door jam and just been like,

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Speaker 1: cow buddy, what the hell we're gonna have to fire you?

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Speaker 3: Like you're gonna this is not you can't do this.

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Speaker 2: If that were the case, I felt like it would

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Speaker 2: have gone the other way and he would have just

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Speaker 2: been like, did you see the name of this terror group?

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Speaker 1: I feel like the government needs more people like you,

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Speaker 1: cal It'd be a lot more fun, a lot more

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Speaker 1: like chuckles in the hallways.

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Speaker 4: And I enjoyed it. It's so serious all the time.

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Speaker 4: All right, Well, let's dive in because we have a

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Speaker 4: great snaff foo today. I'm excited to tell you about it.

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Speaker 4: We begin in California in eighteen forty nine, and you

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Speaker 4: know what that means.

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Speaker 3: There's gold in them, there are hills. The gold Rush

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Speaker 3: was in full swing.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it was the largest mass migration in the

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Speaker 1: history of the United States. By the mid eighteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: while roughly one hundred thousand indigenous people lived in California,

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Speaker 1: the number of non indigenous settlers ballooned from just a

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Speaker 1: few hundred to over three hundred thousand, a massive influx

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Speaker 1: and a crazy impact on the region cal Any, guess

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Speaker 1: what the current population of California is?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Boy? Uh? Thirty two million plus a Kardashian.

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Speaker 1: That's a good, that's a solid. Yes, it's thirty nine

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Speaker 1: point four to three million. Yes, give or take a

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Speaker 1: Kardashian or Himsworth or two. One of the many boom

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Speaker 1: towns that sprang up during the Gold Rush was founded

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Speaker 1: by a mining company out of Wisconsin and led by

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Speaker 1: a man named, wait for it, Captain Absalom Austin Towntenshend.

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Speaker 1: I mean, come on, what a great name. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you met that guy today, he would one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent have a sideburned grooming kit, maybe a pocket watch,

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Speaker 1: and definitely overuse the phrase. Good sir, my name is Absalom.

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Speaker 1: Good sir, that's a wonderful, wonderful name.

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Speaker 2: Great name.

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Speaker 1: Now this Captain Townshend. He had served under General Zachary

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Speaker 1: Taylor during the War of eighteen thirty two, and apparently

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Speaker 1: Townshend was quite enamored with his general Taylor. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to test your grade school memory here, cal do you

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Speaker 1: recall who Zach Taylor was or became?

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Speaker 2: If memory serves, he was one of the non Milf presidents.

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Speaker 1: I cannot verify whether alf president he was al president,

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Speaker 1: but uh, that is correct.

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Speaker 3: He was our twelfth president.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And he had a fun little nickname, old rough and Ready.

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Speaker 1: I know that that has a great backstory.

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Speaker 3: It feels kind of kinky.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it sure does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it feels just wrapped up in kink in

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Speaker 1: a good way. So Captain Townshend decided what better way

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Speaker 1: to pay homage to my boy Zachary than to name

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Speaker 1: this newly formed town after him. To name the town

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Speaker 1: rough and Ready, which is a weird name for a town,

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Speaker 1: like usually towns don't have adjectives as their name. But

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Speaker 1: but I don't know, I guess they just sort of

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Speaker 1: thought it was It was kind of baller. So if

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Speaker 1: you ever heard someone mention rough and ready, would you

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Speaker 1: guess it was the name of a town.

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Speaker 2: My first guess would have been, like yours, I would

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Speaker 2: have thought it would have been sort of like a kink thing.

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Speaker 2: And the ready really signifies the sex positive nature of that,

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Speaker 2: you're like rooting for the person because they're also ready.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it could be like a monster truck

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Speaker 1: rally or oh yeah, maybe like a cowboy themed Swingers

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Speaker 1: retreats or oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 1: Well, despite its odd name, rough and Ready grew fast

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Speaker 1: thanks to all that gold in them the our hills.

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Speaker 1: But then came the Foreign Miners Tax, a state law

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Speaker 1: that slapped non US citizens with a twenty dollars monthly

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Speaker 1: fee just to dig for gold. Most of those foreigners

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Speaker 1: were Chinese and Latin American miners. And yes, this tax

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Speaker 1: was discriminatory as hell. Now here's the twist. Even though

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Speaker 1: the tax didn't target US born miners, towns like rough

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Speaker 1: and Ready still hated it. Why because it drove away

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Speaker 1: cheap labor, sparked conflict, and messed with the free for

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Speaker 1: all gold rush hustled that they were all trying to

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Speaker 1: cash in on. Plus, it planted the idea that any

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Speaker 1: minor could be next in the government's taxation crossairs that

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Speaker 1: will come to play later. Let's just say the good

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Speaker 1: people of rough and Ready were not ready to be

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Speaker 1: roughed up by the tax man. So cal this tax

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Speaker 1: eventually was ruled unconstitutional, but it still stirred up a

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Speaker 1: lot of immigrants sentiment. And you were to the White House,

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Speaker 1: You've been in the political trenches. Why is scapegoating immigrants

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Speaker 1: such a go to move in American politics?

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Speaker 2: It's easy for people who are insecure, and it's I

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Speaker 2: think if you look at what's happening today, it's way

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Speaker 2: easier to blame immigrants for something that's happening in our

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Speaker 2: own communities, like groceries are too expensive, or things feel

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Speaker 2: less safe than they should be, or the cost of

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Speaker 2: my doctor's visit is too high. It's very easy to

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Speaker 2: blame immigrants and much harder to fix those problems. So

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Speaker 2: if you look at generally, the people who are blaming

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Speaker 2: immigrants don't have a plan on how to fix actual problems.

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Speaker 2: And that's historically true as well well. Their plan is

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Speaker 2: to get rid of immigrants, right, which is not going

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Speaker 2: to fix the problem, which doesn't actually address the problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Being an immigrant is a very easy way to otherise someone,

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Speaker 1: of course, or like, or to label someone. And once

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Speaker 1: you have that label, once that otherization is in place,

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Speaker 1: then you just start tacking on all the all the things,

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Speaker 1: all the problems.

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Speaker 2: And the other tragedy of that is, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: perfectly reasonable for reasonable people to talk about levels of

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Speaker 2: immigration and types of immigration every country.

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Speaker 1: And the real way is that that immigration affects communities, effects,

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Speaker 1: and it affects Yeah, all.

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Speaker 2: Totally fair things to do. But when when people scapegoat

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Speaker 2: immigrants and don't solve own problems at home, it then

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Speaker 2: robs us of the opportunity to actually have the real

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Speaker 2: conversations we should be having about these things.

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Speaker 1: Amen, here's where things really go off the rails. Next,

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Speaker 1: the government tried to slap on a new general mining

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Speaker 1: tax that applied to everyone, no matter where you were from,

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Speaker 1: just like they were afraid of. And they also suddenly

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Speaker 1: tried to ban alcohol, by the way, just to clarify,

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Speaker 1: this was a full seventy years before the federal alcohol

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Speaker 1: ban in the nineteen twenties and thirties. That was prohibition

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Speaker 1: came much later. So yeah, a town full of miners

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Speaker 1: with no booze and more taxes. Let's just say they

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Speaker 1: were more pissed off than a bull in a flank strap.

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Speaker 1: And I actually I looked up. I looked up, I googled,

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Speaker 1: what's the thing that they strap around a bowl to

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Speaker 1: make him buck in a rodeo. And because that's the

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Speaker 1: metaphor I wanted to use here. And it's called a

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Speaker 1: flank strap. I always thought it was called a buck strap,

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Speaker 1: but that's.

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Speaker 3: Not what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's a flank strap, app and the you know, people

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Speaker 1: think that it has their their balls. Yeah, in the

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Speaker 1: planet squeezes their balls the buck. That's actually not true. No,

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Speaker 1: that's an urban urban myth or a rural rural legend.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying there's an opening there for a new product.

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Speaker 1: That might make them buck a little harder. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but no, it's just an irritant and it makes them

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Speaker 1: want to get it off. And that's why the buck

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Speaker 1: so cal. We've got new taxes, we've got an alcohol ban,

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Speaker 1: we've got a lot of dusty, angry miners.

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Speaker 3: What do you think they're going to do.

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Speaker 2: Every time you say that it's a town full of

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Speaker 2: miners or dusty angry miners who can't trink alcohol, I

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Speaker 2: picture a bunch of twelve year olds or just fighting

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Speaker 2: with each other over beer that doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, basically, yeah, that's what they're reduced to, essentially.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right. I mean I would imagine some sort of uprising,

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Speaker 2: some sort of like, yes, let's change this immediately.

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Speaker 3: They want to secede, they want it to take it

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Speaker 3: all the way, get out of the United States. They

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Speaker 3: are pissed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 1: So to pull this off, the town called a meeting

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Speaker 1: and voted to secede on April seventh, eighteen fifty. They

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Speaker 1: even sent official quote unquote official paperwork to Washington, DC

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Speaker 1: and renamed their brand new nation, drum roll please, the

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Speaker 1: Great Republic of rough and Ready, Oh, which I mean

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Speaker 1: is kind of a cool flex.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that's a good name.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh, I wouldn't mind if the United States was

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Speaker 1: the Great Republic of rough and Ready.

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Speaker 2: It's a good brothel name.

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Speaker 1: Next, they drafted and signed their own constitution, which bore

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Speaker 1: a striking resemblance to the one hour founding fathers drafted

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Speaker 1: a century earlier, which.

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Speaker 3: Actually kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 1: America's founding document was basically the og Secession Manual. So

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Speaker 1: the town rejoiced no more taxes, but spoiler alert, that

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Speaker 1: joy was very short lived. Pretty soon it's July fourth,

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty, good old Independence Day in the United States. Now,

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Speaker 1: despite having just seceded from the United States, the proud

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Speaker 1: citizens of rough and Ready still felt the need to party,

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Speaker 1: because nothing says we're our own country now like crashing

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Speaker 1: your ex country's birthday party. But when they rolled into

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Speaker 1: neighboring towns to stock up on libations, shop owners refused

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Speaker 1: to sell alcohol to them. Why well, because they were

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Speaker 1: now technically foreigners. Cal have you ever been in another

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Speaker 1: country and realized you just can't get something you really

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Speaker 1: wanted because you're not a local.

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Speaker 2: So first of all, yes, right, like there were there's

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Speaker 2: some stuff that people will just laugh at you. Like

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Speaker 2: I was shooting a film in Bangkok and I ran

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Speaker 2: out of my face lotion, and so I asked the

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Speaker 2: the you know, the makeup woman at work, you know,

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Speaker 2: do you have the recommendation this is what I use?

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Speaker 2: And she laughed at me, and she said, do you

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Speaker 2: know how close you are to South Korea? Go get

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Speaker 2: some really good South Korean skin products. They're so cheap

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Speaker 2: here compared to what you'd have to spend in America.

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Speaker 2: And I just sort of was like, yeah, of course,

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Speaker 2: of course they are. Of course I should do this,

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Speaker 2: look at where I am in the world. But so, yeah, sorry,

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Speaker 2: I have been in this situation where I've been on

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Speaker 2: the road and can't get the thing you're used to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, these rough and readiers had suddenly otherwised themselves, and

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Speaker 1: now everyone in the United States around them is like, sorry,

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Speaker 1: we're not selling the foreigners.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It seems kind of petty, but I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: the motivation was there. After realizing that commerce with their

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Speaker 1: neighbors was going to be a huge pain in the ass,

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Speaker 1: and only three months into their independence, the citizens of

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Speaker 1: this young nation gathered for another emergency meeting and, wait

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Speaker 1: for it, voted to rejoin.

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Speaker 2: Oh there it is, Yeah it is.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we should have taken them back or

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Speaker 1: door just be like sorry, no vaccines.

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Speaker 2: I guess that. You know, it depends on the type

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Speaker 2: of chip that we would have had on our shoulders

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, did we need them back or did they ever

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Speaker 1: actually go?

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Speaker 2: That's the better question. You're right.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling that, you know, whoever they sent

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Speaker 1: these letters to to officially secede was kind of like, okay, whatever, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just like put it aside, Like okay, guys, yeah,

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Speaker 1: whatever you need to tell yourselves. But you're still like

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Speaker 1: a literally a tiny little dot in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the United States.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to take them back, You got to

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Speaker 2: set the precedent. It makes people know full circle. They tried,

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Speaker 2: it didn't work, Let's move on.

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Speaker 3: AnyWho.

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Speaker 1: After a few swift signatures, they were back in the Union.

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Speaker 1: Apparently in the wild West you could form or dissolve

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Speaker 1: entire nations with just a little bit of paperwork. So

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Speaker 1: today the town is still kicking, with a whopping population

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Speaker 1: of six hundred and fifty nine as of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: In fact, we found a flyer online for a Secession

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Speaker 1: Day celebration that includes a chili cookoff and an article

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Speaker 1: touting a reenactment play being performed.

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Speaker 3: Would love to see that.

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Speaker 1: Actually, seems like the townspeople remain proud of their quirky history.

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Speaker 2: Can I propose something?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Can we audition for that play next year?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? If this feels like a like a Waiting for

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Speaker 3: Guffman type movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like what if we just did the play that

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Speaker 1: we need to make this movie?

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Speaker 2: Cow, I'm super down. That's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: Let's leapfrog the play, Like, let's just make make this movie.

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Speaker 1: This is like such a Christopher Guest amazing. So with

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Speaker 1: just people being like like getting caught up in the

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Speaker 1: in the sort of mundane bureaucracy of like what it

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Speaker 1: takes to secede and the number of votes that the

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Speaker 1: town council must pass. And of course so you have

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Speaker 1: all these like these like crush the old gold miners

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Speaker 1: in these meetings, but they have to like focus and

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Speaker 1: dig in on this like smallst mundane stuff.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I love it.

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Speaker 2: And the very the very real emotional you know, valid

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Speaker 2: emotional concerns people have that just like normally stop when

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Speaker 2: you have a good therapist, but in said then become

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Speaker 2: this whole other thing when you're not checking yourself. Uh huh.

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Speaker 2: There it is.

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Speaker 1: That is the story of Rough and Ready caw Pen.

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Speaker 1: Any any major takeaways, any thoughts, reflections.

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Speaker 2: A couple of big takeaways. One very interesting obviously, which

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Speaker 2: is which is why you wanted to tell us the story,

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Speaker 2: and I appreciate that. Two, I'm a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a nerd for countries that aren't recognized by the rest

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Speaker 2: of the world. There's one called trends Inistria, which is

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Speaker 2: sort of between Moldova and Romania, that has a really

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Speaker 2: fascinating history, especially now with the Russian aggression against Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: And obviously there are tons of countries like this or

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Speaker 2: places that are not fully designated countries, but oftentimes they

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Speaker 2: have their own currency, their own leadership, their own military.

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Speaker 2: So when you were telling me this, I loved that

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Speaker 2: there are examples that you know, I didn't know this story.

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Speaker 2: There are examples of this in the US that are fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Also when you were talking about okay, they're foreigners. I'm

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Speaker 2: the type of person we look at American history. We

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Speaker 2: are an experiment in democracy. Things are always going to

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Speaker 2: move forward and backwards constantly. That's sort of what it

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Speaker 2: means to be American. So when we look back at history,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of those people that looks at it and says, wow,

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Speaker 2: we've come a really long way. And so I don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily think that teaching accurate history means that we should

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Speaker 2: feel shame. I think the opposite. We've come so far,

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Speaker 2: oh amen, right, that we look back and say, wow,

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Speaker 2: this was super bad that we did this. It's great

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Speaker 2: that we're not that way anymore. We should feel proud

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Speaker 2: that we're not that way anymore. So it weirds me

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Speaker 2: out when people don't feel that way, and it really

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Speaker 2: weirds me out when people are caught up with if

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Speaker 2: celebrating the Confederacy because it was a foreign country. So

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Speaker 2: it's not to say that we shouldn't learn our history.

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Speaker 2: And if you personally are proud of relatives who had

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Speaker 2: a role in that, more power to you, even if

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Speaker 2: I may disagree. But the obsession with teaching it as

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Speaker 2: though it's American history is incorrect factually because it was

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Speaker 2: a foreign country. Right, So when you were talking about

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Speaker 2: all this stuff, it reminded me how that affects today,

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Speaker 2: right exactly. It reminds me of how that affects us today.

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Speaker 1: Still, it's a complex stew Well, just to your point

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Speaker 1: about looking back at difficult chapters in a nation's history

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Speaker 1: and that being a very positive thing. But it's not

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Speaker 1: just because we can be proud that we have moved

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Speaker 1: on from those things. It's also like, look at these

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Speaker 1: specific mechanics that got our country into this situation, and

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Speaker 1: let's make sure we're keeping an eye out for those

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Speaker 1: mechanics and whether they're starting to sort of like happen again, tour,

403
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Speaker 1: and how do we avoid those things, these these terrible

404
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,479
Speaker 1: face plants throughout history or great injustices that we as

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00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: a country perpetrated or took part in. Let's own our history,

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Speaker 1: own the pride. Like you said that we have moved

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Speaker 1: on and also learn from our mistakes, but study the mistakes,

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Speaker 1: be transparent about the mistakes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And if we're not going to do that, then

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Speaker 2: at the very least the big takeaway from rough and

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Speaker 2: Ready is that it would, as you said, make an

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Speaker 2: incredible key.

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Speaker 1: Party, exactly cowboy themed, a cowboy excuse me?

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Speaker 3: Years retreat.

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Speaker 2: Ed. Did you know that as recently as twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: four there were reportedly twelve states trying to succede. What

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Speaker 2: I know, I don't have all twelve in fun of me,

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Speaker 2: it would have been a fun drinking game.

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Speaker 3: That's absurd.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like fully succeed just twelve because that's like the

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00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 1: size of the Confederacy, but they're not contiguous.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, twelve seemed like a lot to me. Also

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00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 2: right to help us look at what's happening today and

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Speaker 2: what might happen in the future of secession in the US,

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Speaker 2: I knew only one journalist and historian would do. Richard

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Speaker 2: Kreichner is author of Break It Up Secession, Division and

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Speaker 2: the secret history of America's Imperfect Union. He's a contributing

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Speaker 2: writer at The Nation and Hudson Valley magazines, and the

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Speaker 2: host of the history podcast Think Back. Richard, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being here to talk to me, and Ed. Thank you, Cal,

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Ed.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're happy to have you. So, Okay, you're the

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Speaker 2: expert here. We've got movements like cal exit or Tech

435
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: sit which are attempts to make those states independently governed.

436
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: There's also things like the Greater Idaho movement attempting to

437
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Speaker 2: shift state boundaries. It seems like the idea of secession

438
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: is almost dare I say, like in style again, why

439
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 2: is that if that's correct.

440
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it is. I think it really has

441
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 5: been in the last twenty twenty five years, maybe since

442
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 5: around two thousand, with each election really starting with two

443
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 5: thousand and four, whichever side loses threatens to secede or

444
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 5: in you know, in liberals case, sometimes the expression is

445
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 5: that they're going to move to Canada instead, which is

446
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 5: kind of a different expression of the same impulse of

447
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 5: just wanting out from the.

448
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 2: Entire just because we have passports. Right on the other side, doesn't.

449
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, they've got the guns because Canada the Keebaquah,

450
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 4: that's been a huge session movement forever.

451
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, just throwing that in the mix.

452
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: You mentioned Greater Idaho.

453
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 5: You know, there's different kinds of movements. There's cale Exit,

454
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 5: which wants to actually take all of California and leave

455
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 5: the United States. And then there's Greater Idaho, which wants

456
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 5: to take some counties from eastern Oregon and add them

457
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 5: to Idaho. Or downstate Illinois wants to secede from Chicago

458
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 5: and you know, separate themselves. So there's two different types

459
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 5: of movements. You know, you mentioned there's twelve states that

460
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 5: have secession movements. I'd be surprised if some of them

461
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 5: had twelve people in them, you know, like, but there's

462
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 5: other ones like New Hampshire where this like libertarian type

463
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 5: of politics really defines the state, you know, and has

464
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 5: for a long time. So there's movements of varying degrees

465
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 5: of seriousness. But what's unmistakable is this growing trend in

466
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 5: the last twenty to twenty five years after each election

467
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 5: of the sore losers kind of falling back on this

468
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 5: as the last resort.

469
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 2: And what are those proponents, the serious ones, not the

470
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 2: ones that don't have very many people, but the serious ones.

471
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: What do they hope to get out of seating? I

472
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 2: know it goes goes beyond the taxation that Ruff and

473
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: Ready was facing in eighteen fifty. And I'm also wondering

474
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: for you know, is it about states, right? Some of

475
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: these states that you mentioned, the state governance is quite

476
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: different between them, right.

477
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, Well, let's state California. You know, that's a

478
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 5: state that sends more money to the federal government than

479
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 5: they get back in expenditures. And Gavin Newsom and the governor,

480
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,719
Speaker 5: in his recent clash with Trump in the spring, actually

481
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 5: threatened to withhold tax revenues from the state to the

482
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 5: federal government, which would be the beginning of some kind

483
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 5: of secessionist movement, you know. And a lot of people

484
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 5: there see that California only has two senators for their

485
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 5: population of something like forty million people, whereas Wyoming is

486
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 5: the same two senators for a population of like six

487
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 5: hundred thousand people, which is wildly disproportionate. So they see

488
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 5: that they don't get enough sway as they should in

489
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 5: the legislature.

490
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 2: I want to ask ed this too, because I know

491
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: he does work with a great group called represent Us,

492
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: which protects democracy. So do you think the polarization of

493
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: recent years is influencing the desire to succeed?

494
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 3: I definitely think so. It's also part of that sort of.

495
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 1: Long held American ethos of individualism, and it's still I

496
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: think speaks to a kind of like hunker down, protect mine,

497
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: get my crew together mentality. Polarization really is rooted in

498
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: a kind of fear, and that all of this stuff

499
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: is a kind of fear of like interdependency and collectivism,

500
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: and not all unjustified. I mean, there are some live

501
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: abilities that come with a giant country that has a

502
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: sort of more collective form of governance. But I think

503
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: the polarization and this sort of need to secede are

504
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: part of the same mentality.

505
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that this idea of

506
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 5: seceding or individualism not wanting to be a part of

507
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 5: some kind of larger structure is really baked into the

508
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 5: American thing from the beginning. At the very beginning of

509
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 5: my book, I show how reluctant American colonists were too

510
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 5: former union in the first place. They wanted nothing to

511
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 5: do with one another, and that's really all they had

512
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 5: in common with each other was this desire for independence.

513
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 5: And then we joined together to form a country, the

514
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 5: very awkwardly named United States of America, which really spoke

515
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 5: to more what they wanted to happen rather than what

516
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 5: was actually already existing in seventeen seventy six, because it

517
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 5: was the only way that they could declare independence from Britain.

518
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 5: So anytime that our politics gets really heated as it

519
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 5: is in this current moment, as it was before the

520
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 5: Civil War, Americans are going to turn to this idea

521
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 5: of independence. You know. The declaration of independence is a

522
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 5: secessionist manifesto as the kind of remedy for any ills

523
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 5: that they see in the country, especially when it's being

524
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 5: governed by people who they see as their total political enemies.

525
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 2: I love manifesto. It makes it sound so charged it

526
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: was it was yeah, yeah, and it's violent too. Can

527
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: you give us a like a two minute primer on

528
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: something so the I'm curious about the legalities surrounding secession

529
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: from the country, namely the court case Texas v. White,

530
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: which was I think eighteen sixty nine that deemed it unconstitutional.

531
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: So what's the deal? With that, and then what's the

532
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: legality today?

533
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe a bit of an outlier on people who

534
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 5: study this question because I don't give a lot of

535
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: weight to that court case, which was basically an attempt

536
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 5: to kind of wrap up all the loose ends of

537
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 5: the Civil War and be like, oh, by the way,

538
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 5: it's not only that we beat you on the battlefield,

539
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 5: but it's also unconstitutional. So it was a way to

540
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 5: kind of accomplish judicially what they'd already done militarily.

541
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: You know.

542
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 5: It was what's called dicta in the legal profession. It's

543
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 5: it's something that the court wasn't actually being asked to

544
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 5: comment on. They were just like, oh, yeah, by the way, also,

545
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 5: secession is illegal.

546
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: I'm gonna put a dict to you face say it again. Nothing.

547
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 5: It's not clear to me that more than a century

548
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 5: and a half later, you know that that's going to

549
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 5: carry much weight if Texas or California or both, you know,

550
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 5: choose to get up and go.

551
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: I know, I said I wanted to ask you about

552
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: California again. So then given that I note that cases

553
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 2: and hold a whole lot of weight for you, But

554
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 2: how are these movements the serious ones?

555
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 4: Right?

556
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: The ones that are getting on the ballot, Like in California,

557
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: there's a ballot measure aimed for twenty twenty eight. So

558
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 2: what happens after that? Potentially the ones that are that

559
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: are taken a little more seriously. And I guess the

560
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 2: second part of that question two for for California, if

561
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: I understand correctly, it's still the world's fifth largest economy,

562
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: right if you remove that from the US, so they

563
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: could conceivably actually live on their own, with their own

564
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: fully functioning everything.

565
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, possibly, it's not clear that they would still be

566
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 5: the fifth largest economy if they were detached from everything

567
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 5: that being part of the United States gives you, which

568
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 5: at least now has been like fairly fairly good things.

569
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 5: So what happens after that is kind of anybody's guests.

570
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 5: A lot would depend on what the federal government chose

571
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 5: to do. Republicans might have every reason to say, forget you,

572
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 5: We'll never lose another presidential election without California's, however, many

573
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 5: electoral College votes, that's always in their power.

574
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: I somehow don't see that.

575
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 5: Trump seems to already be pretty interested in sending troops

576
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 5: to California, and I think it would probably get a

577
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 5: lot messier than the people who back those initiatives tend

578
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 5: to suggest.

579
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can.

580
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the right always is very happy to take

581
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: all this blue state tax money and pour it into

582
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 2: red states. As you mentioned earlier, Right, red states as

583
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: a whole don't generate a whole lot for a federal

584
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: tax dollars for federal programs. Yeah, and they're also crazy,

585
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: that is fair.

586
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: To say, generally, yes, And they're also very happy to

587
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 5: talk about secession themselves when Obama was in power or

588
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 5: when Biden was in power. But as soon as it flips,

589
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 5: his treason and Trump should crush him with all, with

590
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 5: all prejudice.

591
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: And do you live in California?

592
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: Right?

593
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah?

594
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 5: Is this?

595
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: Uh? Has this actually come up, like aside from the

596
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 2: we're bummed about the election or or the real horrors

597
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: of what the president's doing with ice, especially in LA.

598
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a lot of sort of seething

599
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: contempt and resentment for the the way that the federal

600
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: government is kind of jumping into Los Angeles.

601
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: Uh, and and pushing people around.

602
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: And obviously these ice raids, which which were sold to

603
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: us as a way to just get rid of criminals,

604
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: and is clearly not that, and it's been insanely disruptive

605
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: and uh and created a lot of fear and confusion

606
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: in so many communities that that has has people sort

607
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: of joking about like would in got shouldn't we just

608
00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: get out of here. I don't take any of it

609
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: very seriously, but I think it's coming from a visceral

610
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: place of frustration and a feeling that like the federal

611
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: government may not really have our back right now.

612
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 5: I mean, that's what That's what Brexitt was too as well,

613
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 5: you know, as well before Trump was everybody was like,

614
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 5: there's no way this is going to happen. And that

615
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 5: itself was a secession referendum, which actually our teeth into it,

616
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 5: you know, in it because it was binding, which none

617
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 5: of these, none of these ones are. That's simply an

618
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 5: expression of discontent. If California votes to leave, only then

619
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 5: would you know, would it really come to pass?

620
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: To me, the fact that this is happening on the

621
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: left and the right at different times is a real

622
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: symptom of a lack of trust in our institutions, especially

623
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: our democratic institutions. That I know you do a lot

624
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: of work in this space, but is there in the

625
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: work that you do, or Richard, the research and the

626
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: writing that you do. Are there any metrics on how

627
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: bad things have gotten or how volatile maybe is a

628
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: better word, rather than just putting the good bad binary

629
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: in there.

630
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think there's all kinds of statistics

631
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 5: about political violence and distrust and institutions, and especially not

632
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 5: just institutions, but in each other, you know, as citizens.

633
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 5: It's I think, as bad as it has been since

634
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 5: the Civil War. It's striking to me what you say

635
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 5: about it being both sides, because that reminds me of

636
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: earlier periods in American history, Like I mentioned, in the

637
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 5: colonial period, when nobody wanted anything to do with one

638
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 5: another and that's all they had in common. That's kind

639
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 5: of the case now as well. You know, none of

640
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 5: us are really quite certain what the purpose of this

641
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 5: union is or what function it is serving. And I

642
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 5: think a lot of people are frustrated, not only when

643
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 5: they're out of power, but when they're in power, and

644
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 5: it's so difficult to pass laws, you know, partly because

645
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 5: of the filibuster, partly because of you know, poor representation.

646
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 5: We've become a little bit of an ungovernable country and

647
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 5: that's growing frustrating for both sides.

648
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and just on that metric question, I mean, there

649
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: was a famous Princeton study that showed that public sentiment

650
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: around a given.

651
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 3: Cause or policy had a statistically.

652
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: Non existent effect on whether or not that policy would

653
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: become a law. When when that's the reality of how

654
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: the government is functioning, of course, it's incredibly alienating for

655
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: for so many people, and there's so much frustration and

656
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: and I think a legitimate distrust in uh in some institutions.

657
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: Congress right now deserves a lot of scrutiny and a

658
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: lot of distrust. Unfortunately, that's spilling over into the judiciary

659
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: and things like you know, the CDC and other things

660
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: that that I that I don't think deserve the same

661
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: level of distrust scrutiny. Sure, but that feels like a

662
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: very toxic and spreading mindset right now.

663
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.

664
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. The politicization of what should be independent branches or

665
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: agencies is very jarring. Before we go to the next section,

666
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: I had a follow up for you, Richard on the

667
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: on the Greater Idaho movement, which you mentioned was more

668
00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: about changing borders rather than technically secession. I assume that's

669
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: still quite difficult and unlikely. Is that the case? Is

670
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: it more feasible? And if those folks actually won, what

671
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: does that winning mean and what's the mechanism in which

672
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: it could occur.

673
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, the Greater Idaho movement is advocating the transfer of

674
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 5: some number of counties. I couldn't tell you exactly how many,

675
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 5: something like ten from eastern Oregon, which is the eastern

676
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 5: side of the Cascade Mountains that really divide Oregon into

677
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 5: a kind of lusher, bluer, more progressive western part and

678
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 5: a more dry and much more conservative eastern part that's

679
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 5: very rural and in fact a lot more like Idaho,

680
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 5: which is right next door. And it would send them

681
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 5: into Idaho. So Idaho would become bigger and Oregon would

682
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 5: become smaller. And that would not really have much of

683
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 5: any kind of effect on national politics. It wouldn't change

684
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 5: the composition of the Senate very much. It wouldn't really

685
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 5: change the electoral college. Maybe one vote would switch. But

686
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 5: the constitutional mechanism for it happening is a little bit

687
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 5: easier than seceding from the United States, which is super

688
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 5: dubious and led to a massive civil war last time.

689
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: In this case, it would need the ascent of both Idaho,

690
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 5: which is already granted it, I believe, or at least

691
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 5: looked at it, and I think is supportive, and Oregon,

692
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 5: which is dominated by Democrats and is much less willing

693
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 5: to lose something like one third of their territory, and

694
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 5: then the United States Congress would also need to sign on.

695
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: So it's pretty far fetched.

696
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 5: It's unlikely, but it's not inconceivable that it could be

697
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 5: part of some larger package that you know, admits DC

698
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 5: or Puerto Rico or something as a state in exchange

699
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 5: for moving borders around in this way. And I think

700
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 5: it fundamentally reflects the same kind of discontent with the

701
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 5: way the lines have been drawn on the map and

702
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 5: the way that things have worked for generations that Calaxit

703
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 5: and Texit also suggest.

704
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's what was happening with secession right now,

705
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: when we're back, let's talk about the future of this

706
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: imperfect union. America. You mentioned this, Richard, very eloquently, much

707
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 2: more than I could ever say, is a nation born

708
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: out of secession from Great Britain. So I get in

709
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: my liberal nation reading, you know, blah blah blah, why

710
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: some people might think that it's possible or even viably

711
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: revolutionary to consider secession. What would you both tell those people?

712
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: And I'm curious also, given your democracy.

713
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: Work, read the Declaration of Independence, read the Constitution, and

714
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: remind yourself why this incredible experiment that is the United

715
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: States is so special and that if we double down

716
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: on what those documents say, then we can be pretty great.

717
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: I think what's happened is that a lot of our

718
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: institutions have degraded over time. A lot of what represented

719
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: US does is fight corruption. I would say, don't give

720
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: up on the United States. There's something really incredible and

721
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: special here, and we just need to fix some of

722
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: what's broken.

723
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 5: To me, what the Declaration of Independence says is that

724
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 5: when your government, when your system gets corrupted, when it

725
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 5: starts getting degraded, and your government begins attacking your rights

726
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 5: to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, you have

727
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 5: the right to alter or abolish that government, you know,

728
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 5: and one way of doing that is secession. I think

729
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 5: this should be an option of last resort, not first resort,

730
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 5: which is what kind of differentiates me from the people

731
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 5: who are for callexit. You know, in twenty twenty five,

732
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 5: I think we're absolutely not there yet, and I would

733
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 5: say to those people, like, keep your powder dry. You know,

734
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 5: keep this in mind. This is a truly, you know,

735
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 5: classic kind of American story. As much as anything else,

736
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 5: is this idea of secession. It's not just the Confederates,

737
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 5: it's not just racist slave owners and stuff who have

738
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 5: had this idea. Abolitionists wanted the North to secede from

739
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 5: the United States not only to protest slavery, but to

740
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 5: actually undermine it because they thought that giving their tax

741
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 5: dollars to a pro slavery government was perpetuating institution. So

742
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 5: we shouldn't be scared of the idea. I think it's

743
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 5: as American as anything else. But I agree with ed that.

744
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 5: I you know, I've got a lot of sentimental attachments.

745
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 5: I like driving across the country. I don't want to

746
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 5: have to show my passport to do that. I think

747
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 5: there's a lot that this country has accomplished in the

748
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 5: past and still count in the future. But I do

749
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 5: think that there are worse things than a potential break

750
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 5: above the country, which would be kind of you know,

751
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 5: all of us falling under some kind of fascist dictatorship.

752
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 5: Better to maintain real liberty in at least one part

753
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 5: of it, or a few parts of it, against the

754
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 5: day that we can kind of take back control over

755
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 5: the whole thing and return to the principles that we

756
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 5: all grew up to admire in this country.

757
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: Well said, Yeah, very well said. I share your cross

758
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 2: country love like my partners from rural Mississippi. And it

759
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: still floors me that I need a passport to go

760
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 2: to Toronto or London or you know, any of these places

761
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: that are culturally way more similar to the parts of

762
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: the US that I've always lived in, And I don't

763
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: need a passport to go to rural Mississippi, which culturally

764
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: is completely different from anywhere I've ever lived. And I

765
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: love that because it just shows you that the incredible diversity, warmth,

766
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 2: you know, all of that that exists in one country,

767
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 2: one large country where people don't necessarily see eye to

768
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: either's something really beautiful about that that I really enjoyed.

769
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, I'm such a sentimentalist that I actually

770
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 5: think that the more people from New York and Chicago

771
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 5: and Boston do travel to Mississippi and vice versa, and

772
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 5: we just kind of circulate around the country a little

773
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 5: more and get to know not just each other better,

774
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 5: which is a little cheesy, but like even each other's

775
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 5: like places like that, might that might do something to

776
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 5: kind of bring us to the future.

777
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Richard, you were describing Oregon as as having like the coastal, lush,

778
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: liberal elite side and then the dry eastern portion, and

779
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: I was wondering if there's if that's just correlation, or

780
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: if maybe there's some humidity causality.

781
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: To a political disposition.

782
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 5: I'm sure some historian of Oregon could tell you about

783
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 5: how the economy has been shaped and the people and

784
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 5: all of that. I will tell you that, having done

785
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 5: research on all of this stuff in the nineteenth century,

786
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 5: that there were ideas of splitting up Oregon even back

787
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 5: then in the eighteen forties, when Oregon was first getting

788
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 5: you know, settled quote unquote by by white emigrant, and

789
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 5: there was this idea of these are two completely different places.

790
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 5: We should draw a line at the mountain ridge. So

791
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 5: this idea of greater Idaho is only really returning to

792
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 5: this older idea.

793
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, Idaho I has such a nice, clean

794
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: vertical line there, nice there, It's like a beautiful little chimney.

795
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: What are the factors that could impact whether or not

796
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 2: these secession movements continue to gain momentum throughout history. And

797
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 2: I guess follow up question that question is obviously a

798
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: historic more sort of long term. But in the states

799
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: that we talked about, are there any serious contenders in

800
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 2: the next five to ten twenty years.

801
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 5: I would say California and Texas seem like the most

802
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 5: likely contenders. They're the biggest states, you know, by land,

803
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 5: at least in the lower forty eight. I think they

804
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 5: can make the most plausible case about going it alone,

805
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 5: even though, as I said before, I think that's both

806
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 5: cases are kind of dubious. I've always said, honestly, I

807
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 5: think the most likely way that this happens is not

808
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 5: just on a clear blue day California holds a vote

809
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: to secede and then the federal government ever either lets

810
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 5: them or not. I see it as happening in the

811
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 5: context of some much larger kind of national crisis where

812
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 5: you know, say the twenty twenty election never really got resolved,

813
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 5: and you have two people pretending to be president and

814
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 5: then the country just cracks, you know, the constitution just

815
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 5: kind of falls apart, and in that context, states, you know,

816
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 5: pick up the pieces and do different things. I think

817
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 5: it's more likely than a Brexit style referendum that provokes

818
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 5: a crisis. We're knitted together in so much more complicated

819
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 5: in thorough ways than we were in eighteen fifty or

820
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 5: in eighteen sixty one or something like that. Anybody who

821
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 5: tells you that they know exactly how this would work

822
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 5: out and that it would be great, and that you know,

823
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 5: seniors would still get their Social Security checks or something,

824
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 5: which is something that somebody, a secessionist from Texas told

825
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 5: me on the Doctor Phil Show last year, and I

826
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 5: was just like.

827
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: No, Well, Richard, thank you so much for being here

828
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: to help us learn about the modern day secession movement.

829
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: Thanks guys, and thanks to our listeners for checking out

830
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 2: this joint episode of Here we Go Again and snaffu ed.

831
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: This was really fun. I'm glad we did it.

832
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 3: Likewise, I think we may have hatched something here.

833
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 2: Let's continue to grow the hatch Are they called hatchlings?

834
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 4: Sure?

835
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 3: I think in podcast linger it's called a hatchling.

836
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, the hatchlings. Well, great by everyone, see you next week.

837
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snapfo Media,

838
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company.

839
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: Our post production studio is Gilded Audio.

840
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner,

841
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: Andy Kim Whitney, Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was

842
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: produced by Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our video editor

843
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley.

844
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by

845
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: The Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson

846
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn,

847
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson,

848
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etoor, Nathan O'towski and Alex Corral. While

849
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy

850
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 1: of my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest

851
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: screw Ups.

852
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 3: It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to.

853
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: Snaffoo dashbook dot com.

854
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and see you next week.