1 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. I recently read a 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: fascinating article entitled Henry Cabot Lodge, Nationalist Historian, written by 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: Colin Dwick. I was particularly intrigued by his peace because 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 1: he went into great detail about Lodge's concern quote. Lodge 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: worried that in the Gilded Age America, deep ethnic, class, religious, 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: and sectional differences, the loss of historical memory, and a 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: growing obsession with money had combined to loosen a road 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: the patriotic understanding of earlier generations. He looked to recover 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: an awareness of US history for his readers, that is 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: to say, for US citizens, in order to remind them 11 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: of their common national past, their common national traditions, and 12 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: their potentially common national purpose. For Lodge, the reading and 13 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: writing of American history was itself a nationalist project. Close 14 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: quote now. Senator Henry Caboli Sor lived from eighteen fifty 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty four and was first and foremost a historian, 16 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: receiving his PhD in history from Harvard in eighteen seventy six. 17 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: And what struck me about the piece were the fears 18 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: that Lodge had about America and its future. Well grounded 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: fears at the time, which are very similar to the 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: concerns many of us have today about the future of America. 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,639 Speaker 1: So I'm really pleased to welcome my guests Colin Dewick. 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: He is a non resident Senior Fellow at the American 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: Enterprise Institute and also a professor in the Share School 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: of Policy and Government at George Mason University. Welcome and 25 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on News World. Thank you 26 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: so much, mister speaker. I'm really curious. Have you always 27 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: had this sort of insight or did it grow as 28 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: you did your work. Well, I've written a number of 29 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: books on Republican foreign policy traditions over the years. That's 30 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: always been a central interest of mine, going back probably 31 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: twenty or more years. And you know, especially when the 32 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: Trump administration was being covered in the press the way 33 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: it was, I thought it would be interesting to see 34 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: a book out there that tried to analyze objectively it's 35 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: foreign policy without jumping straight to invective. And I had 36 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: a hard time finding one, so I decided to write it. 37 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: So that was my motivation for Age of Iron that 38 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: came out in twenty nineteen. Your background, you gotta be 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: Annma from the University of Sayskatchewan. But then you went 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: to Oxford University, Princeton University, and Harvard. Now, how do 41 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: you survive those three schools and not be come woke? Yeah, 42 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: it's hard to do, and of course a lot of 43 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: people think that you can't. I think growing up in 44 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: Western Canada, at least in the nineteen eighties, gives you 45 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: a perspective on things. It's actually, in some ways very 46 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: similar to Montana or North Dakota states like that. And 47 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: I've been struck by the number of Americans I've met 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: on these coasts in higher education who don't seem to 49 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: have a very good feeling for the heartland of their 50 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: own country. So oddly enough, when I moved to the the 51 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: United States, I felt like I had more in common 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: with you know, a lot of the voters that you 53 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: see and say the great planes than I do with 54 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: some of my fellow academics. Saskatchewan and Alberta are really very, 55 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: very different from Ontario exactly. So for example, if you 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: look at recent federal elections, I think every single seat 57 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: in Saskatchewan votes Conservative, and almost every seat in Alberta. 58 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: And that's a trend in the Prairies, and there's a 59 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: lot of reasons for that. It tends to be a 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: little more don't tread on me, or the polite Canadian equivalent, 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: But the feeling is I grew up with that. It's 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: very similar. So you really started looking at foreign policy. 63 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: I mean, your early books Reluctant Crusaders, Power, Culture, and 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: Change in American Grand Strategy, A Hardline, the Republican Party 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: in US foreign policy since World War Two, and the 66 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,799 Speaker 1: Obama Doctor in American Grand Strategy today. All those really 67 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: are sort of strategic national security kind of approach, foreign 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: policy kind of approach. But then you shift and you 69 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: look at the kind of core nationalism, which is really 70 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: an internal cultural behavior. What led you to shift from 71 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: focusing overseas to focusing internally on American culture. Yeah, No, 72 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: that's the good description. That's exactly the shift that I 73 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: tried to make. And it was watching the events of 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, which I think surprised so many of us, 75 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: and trying to understand what happened. And I think what 76 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: happened and the argument I tried to make in that 77 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: book was a resurgence of American national It goes beyond 78 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: foreign policy. If you look at the history of the 79 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: Republican Party. Going back to Lincoln and the Civil War, 80 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: there was a kind of robust American nationalism at the 81 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: heart of it, and there always has been, and I 82 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: think historians, academic historians, used to understand that, but in 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: recent years the word nationalism is just is a dirty word, 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,239 Speaker 1: I guess, and the implication is an in foreign policy, 85 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 1: though that can go in more than one way. It 86 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: can go in a non interventionist direction, or it can 87 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: also go in a more hawkish direction, and I think 88 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: that depends on circumstances. So what made Trump so interesting 89 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: was that in some ways he was a hawk, but 90 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: in some ways he was a non interventionist, and that 91 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: was surprising or disorienting for a lot of sort of 92 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: Beltway foreign policy types. And that's why I thought it 93 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: was important to really understand what this was all about. 94 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: The concept of America as a civilization. To take the 95 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: title of a book for the nineteen fifties, and the 96 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: whole notion that we are a unique system and that 97 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: being American has a unique meaning really goes back to 98 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: the founding fathers. And you point this out, you're really 99 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: looking at George Washington or even Jefferson, who in some 100 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,119 Speaker 1: ways is the most pro French Revolution and the most cosmopolitan. 101 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: But in the end he talks about America as launching 102 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: an empire of liberty and sees us as an exceptional 103 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: country in our own right. I suspect the collapse of 104 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: the French Revolution in the rise of Napoleon further convinced 105 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: him of our uniqueness. So in a sense, you're tracking 106 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: what was a presumption of nationalism that's been very, very 107 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: deep exactly. I think in the American case, from the 108 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: very beginning, going back to the founding, there's actually a 109 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: healthy American nationalism. It's a civic nationalism. It's an American 110 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: creed that's tied to certain constitutional values, values of freedom 111 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: and self government that I think the vast majority of 112 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: Americans even now say they've cherished. And so there's nothing 113 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: wrong with that kind of nationalism. It's too common in 114 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: academic circles to just take the word nationalism as entirely 115 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: destructive or negative and then to sort of make a 116 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: blanket statement that it can't possibly be constructive. But in 117 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: the American case, I think it actually has been. And Lincoln, 118 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: to me is the single best example that that the 119 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: American founders are too. I've long been immersed in Lincoln 120 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: and believe that his very simple statement of government of 121 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: the people, by the people, and for the people is 122 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: probably the best single summing up of what has made 123 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: America unique and what we're in danger of losing as 124 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: our elites seek to tell the rest of us how 125 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: we should live and what we should do, and whose 126 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: interest we should pay tribute to. But historically and seeing 127 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: away that Lincoln, somehow, maybe because he grew up so 128 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: poor and was basically a common person in every sense 129 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: of the word, he had this in his very soul, 130 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: the sense of a unique Americanism, And I think he 131 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: really did believe that losing the Civil War would end 132 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: the cause of freedom for centuries to come, and that 133 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: therefore he wasn't just a fight over America, but as 134 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: a fight over the very nature of freedom as it 135 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: relates to human beings. I agree. I think he's so 136 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: impressive for a long list of reasons, and he's admired worldwide. 137 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: I mean, he has a kind of magnanimity that's really striking. 138 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: Even when he's talking about the enemy right during the 139 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: Civil War, he speaks of them in a very generous 140 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: magnanimous way. But at the same time he's absolutely relentless 141 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: in doing what's required to preserve the Union. So his 142 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: great statements and his great actions to do just that 143 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: make it clear that he thinks this is non negotiable right. 144 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: The Union must be preserved. And I really think he 145 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: is one of those indispensable figures. You can easily imagine 146 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: a scenario where if you take Lincoln out of the equation, 147 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: the Union falls apart. Seems very unlucky to me that Seward, 148 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: who was his greatest competitor in the Republican Party, the 149 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: Seward would have had a clue about doing what Lincoln did. 150 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: And to be honest, and you might educate me on this, 151 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: I have never understood, in an age where you were 152 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,239 Speaker 1: communicating through newspapers and by writing letters, how Lincoln sustained 153 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: support for the war despite all of the losses. I mean, 154 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: every village in America is losing kids the casually rate. 155 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: We lose more Americans taking the two sides together, we 156 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: lose more Americans in the Civil War than in every 157 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: war up through Korea. Yet somehow he manages to convince 158 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: the North that it has to stay the course, no 159 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 1: matter how long it is, and no hotter how painful 160 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: it is. Somehow intuitive sense of taking a political issue 161 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: in turning it into a moral cause is one of 162 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: the most extraordinary achievements in American history. He's very impressive politically. 163 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: I mean, you can imagine if he loses reelection in 164 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four, his opponent, the Democratic nominee, might have 165 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: sued for peace and the war's over. There was a 166 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: segment of opinion in the North that was ready to 167 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: call it quits. Casualties in the Wilderness Campaign were heavy 168 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: link in his cruisle. But in the end, I think 169 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: one of the things that sustained him, as he knew 170 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: was there was a popular American nationalism in the North, 171 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: and there's no other word for it, that said this 172 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: is a legitimate cause, it's worth making a sacrifice for. 173 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: And he tapped into it, he expressed it, and he 174 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: rallied it. I occasionally speak at various Union League clubs 175 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: in New York or Philadelphia, in particular Cleveland, when they 176 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: came out of the war, there really was a triumphalism 177 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: and a sense of it deeply expressed American nationalism that 178 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: I think in some ways changes the trajectory of the 179 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: country and sets the stage for Henry Cabot Lodge to 180 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: be so acceptable because they want to be told that 181 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: being a nationalist is okay. They want to be told 182 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: of being an American is good, and Cabot Lodge comes 183 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: along and that right. And of course, for Lodge, as 184 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: you mentioned, he grew up in Boston, of privileged family, 185 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: kind of Boston Brahm and he was a boy during 186 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: the Civil War, so he wasn't able to fight, and 187 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: he bitterly regretted this right, but he watched all of 188 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: this unfold and he was old enough to understand what 189 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: was happening. He was in his early teens, and he 190 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: felt very strongly about it. That's clear. He watched soldiers 191 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: marched by on the street right in front of his 192 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: home in Boston, and he never forgot those experiences for 193 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. The memory of Lincoln and 194 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: the Union cause and the Civil War was absolutely formative 195 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: for him. And what he was trying to do, I think, 196 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: for the rest of his career historically and then politically, 197 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: was to try to understand what would Lincoln do if 198 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: he were alive now, how would he tackle the challenges 199 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: that we face today, and for Lodge that was the 200 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: Gilded Age and then into the progressive era, but that 201 00:11:53,080 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: was basic for him. I read Lodge's introduction to the 202 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: Collective Papers of Alexander Hamilton's and it was the best 203 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: explanation of pragmatism I've ever read, where he says, basically, 204 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: look at Hamilton didn't have any ideological commitment to a theory. 205 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: If floating US debt worked, he was for it. If 206 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: not floating US debt would have worked, he'd have been 207 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: for that too. What he wanted to do was get 208 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: the system to work and prop it up so that 209 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: America could grow into a strong country capable of defending 210 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: its independence. I thought it was one of the finest 211 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: explanations of the practicality of the Founding Fathers, who combined 212 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: enormous idealism about the possibilities with enormous and unavoidable given 213 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: the fact that they had taken on the most powerful 214 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: empire in the world, realism about how to turn those 215 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: ideals into possibilities. And my sense was the Lodge had 216 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: a deep intuitive sympathy for the Founding Fathers and for 217 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: what it took to create America right, And that's why 218 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: he admired Hamilton's so much. He wasn't a big fan 219 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: of Thomas Jefferson, but he admired George Washington and Alexander 220 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: Hamilton and the Federalist because he thought that was the 221 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: tradition that embodied this sense that, you know, this is 222 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: one nation, which was not at all given in the 223 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: early years of the Republic. It isn't just a collection 224 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: of kind of squabbling localities. It is one nation, and 225 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: it has a common fate. It's one people, and there 226 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: needs to be a certain robust quality to the government 227 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: within given limits, able to protect its interests internationally. Either 228 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: you're going to need certain financial institutions, as Hamilton championed them, 229 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: and then you're going to need a military. You're going 230 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: to need a standing armed forces, and these are all 231 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: things that you know, Jefferson was very skeptical, so Lodge 232 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: was really more in that Hamiltonian tradition. But I think 233 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: the Republican Party in general, coming out of the Civil 234 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: War saw itself almost as derivative of the Federalist Party 235 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: and would have seen Washington and Hamilton as the natural 236 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: leaders around whom they would build their belief system. Then, 237 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: of course overwhelmingly Trump by Lincoln, who was the dominant 238 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: figure of the last half of the nineteenth century in 239 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: American politics, at least in the Republican Party's politics. But 240 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: the other thing is which I've always been intrigued by, 241 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: the left decided that the Republican opposition to the Treaty 242 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: of Versailles was because they were isolationists. In fact, as 243 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: I think you try to point out, then the same thing, 244 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: of course was true of Trump. The Republicans, with the 245 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: people like Lodge and Theodore Roost, were hardly isolationist, but 246 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: they were for international activity based on American interest and 247 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: on a deep feeling of American nationalism, and their distrust 248 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: of the Treaty of Versailles was they were deeply opposed 249 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: to immersing the United States in some collectivity made up 250 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: of countries whose core power structure could be dictatorships or 251 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: inherited systems or what have you. And it's always struck 252 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: me that the left completely misunderstood the nature of the 253 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: Republican opposition to Wilson. And also, of course, because Wilson 254 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: became the great icon, they ignored Wilson being far and 255 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: away the most segregationist president in modern times, and they 256 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: ignored the degree to which Wilson was In fact, it 257 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: did more to destroy the Democratic Party for over a 258 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: decade than anybody else. In many ways, Wilson was an 259 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: amazing failure who gave great speeches. Do you agree that 260 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: there was actually a sophisticated internationalism among Republicans? It was 261 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: very different than the sort of liberal historical myth I do. 262 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, this is what I've been 263 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: trying to argue in my books and articles for years. 264 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: I mean, Lodge was the leader and the best representative 265 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: of the majority of the Senate Republicans at the time. 266 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: They actually favored entry into some kind of collective security system. 267 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: They were in a way more robust than Wilson in 268 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: saying we need to deter any future German invasion of France. 269 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: They were willing to make security guarantees to the French 270 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: and to the British. But they thought that Wilson's League 271 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: of Nations went too far because it promised to defend 272 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: every single nation on the planet. And Lodge's view was 273 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: that's not realistic, it's not even honest. We're not going 274 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: to do it, So why would we say we're going 275 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: to do it, and that's the thing that drove him 276 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: crazy about Wilson. Wilson would issue these sweeping, universalistic statements 277 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: that critics knew perfectly well, we're not going to be supported. 278 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: So that was Lodge's view. It was not an unreasonable view, 279 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: and as a matter of fact, he was open to 280 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: compromise if Wilson was open to compromise on the details 281 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: of the Treaty of Versailles. But Wilson wasn't. He was 282 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: completely unyielding, and he said the Senate has to take 283 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: its medicine, and he asked for really all or nothing, 284 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: and in the end he got nothing. He couldn't get 285 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: the two thirds through the Senate, and that's what happened. 286 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: I would say, Wilson, there's a heavy responsibility for that, 287 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: because it really was a tragedy that the US didn't 288 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: sign on to some sort of post war NATO thirty 289 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: years earlier, and that's what Lodge was proposing. Wilson was 290 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: a surprisingly dictatorial personality, but there was a rigidity to 291 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: him that shows up again and again in his career. 292 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: Very odd and you don't get that at all with Lodge. 293 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: I mean, Lodge was very practical and apparently very good 294 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: at working with people. Lodge was very good at being 295 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: a senator. He sort of was a triple threat, like 296 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: the best senators are. He was able to deliver public 297 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: addresses that communicated his case. He was also exceptionally hard working. 298 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean, he was sometimes criticized for having this very 299 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: privileged Brahmin background, but the reality is from the start 300 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: he rolled up his sleeves and he got down to work. 301 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: He did the work at the local county level in 302 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: the state to Massachusetts to get to know people and 303 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: master local politics. And so he also did the same 304 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: one committee work. I don't have to tell you. You 305 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: know this is hard work, long hours, right, and he 306 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: mastered it. So he knew how to give a speech, 307 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: he knew how to do the back room negotiation, he 308 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: knew how to do the committee work. He had a 309 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: nitty gritty feeling for politics. Whereas Wilson, as you say, 310 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 1: was best at sort of scolding people. He was basically, 311 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: as you can probably tell him, not a big Winter 312 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: Wilson fan. But I mean, to my mind, he was 313 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: essentially a prig. He was somebody who spent a lot 314 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: of time scolding others moralistically when in reality, what he 315 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: was doing at all times is promoting his own political 316 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: ambition to certain hypocrisy. To Wilson, that becomes really obvious 317 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: if you get out from under the shadow. You make 318 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: the point that Lodge really understood that the central figure 319 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: on whom everything stands was Washington. I was very struck. 320 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: Years ago. Gary Wills, in a book on the Declaration 321 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: of Independence, made the comment that because Washington didn't write much, 322 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: that historians found it hard to understand how truly central 323 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: he was. They overvalued the people who wrote a lot. 324 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: But in fact it was Washington, sitting at dinner in 325 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: the evenings, who was shaping everything, shaping the Declaration, shaping 326 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: the Constitution. It's Washington's moral strength, not his rhetorical skill, 327 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: that somehow held things together for a long war in 328 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: which the Americans are not winning for most of it. 329 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: It's an astonishing thing. I'd written several novels about Washington 330 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: and the Revolutionary War, and you go through that period 331 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: watching him how actually strategically smart he is, both in 332 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: managing the Continental Congress, in dealing with the army and 333 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: with the British. It seems to me that Lodge, in 334 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: some ways as this two seated stool of Lincoln and 335 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: Washington as the people on whom he bases virtually everything 336 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: that's it, Yeah, exactly, Lodge begins with Washington and then 337 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: takes it through Lincoln. And he also has a few 338 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: kind words for Daniel Webster in the Wigs. So that's 339 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: kind of the tradition he cherishes. But as Lodge knew, 340 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Washington during the American Revolutionary War is again 341 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 1: an example of that rare thing, which is a truly 342 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: indispensable man. I don't think you can tell that story 343 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: with the same outcome exactly without Washington. I mean, he 344 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: played such a pivotal role in maintaining support, I mean, 345 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: with incredible patients, keeping the Continental Army, and being out 346 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: maneuvering the British. It was a very impressive performance at 347 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: the highest level of civilian and military leadership. And it 348 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: was against an enemy that actually was in a lot 349 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: of ways stronger. I mean, the British Empire at the 350 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: time had greater resources right than the Thirteen Colonies, and 351 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: so I think it's inspiring for a lot of reasons. 352 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: One of the reasons is I became an American citizen 353 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve but will Americans have been used to 354 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: often overpowering our adversaries just through spending more money than them, 355 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 1: and maybe we can still get some value out of that. 356 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: But we're now facing an adversary in China that has 357 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: at least as great economic capabilities in some ways as 358 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: we do, and we're not going to be able to 359 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: just outspend them. So Washington provides a useful example of 360 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: skillful leadership in a difficult time against a very powerful enemy. 361 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, ho Chi Men read a biography 362 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: of Washington and was very taken with the idea of 363 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: a protracted war in which the weaker power wins through 364 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: guerilla tactics against the more powerful nation. And in some 365 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: ways I think Washington was teaching ho Chi Men. And 366 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: of course we found ourselves, with all of our power, 367 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: unable to design a strategy that could win in Vietnam exactly. 368 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: That's why Washington is for practical reasons, has inspired many 369 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: leaders who, in different causes, or whether we like it 370 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: or not, who look to outlast their enemy successfully. Part 371 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: of Lodge's belief is the importance of a navy, and 372 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: of course, one of the great examples of the power 373 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: of ideas is Alfred Theyer Mahan sitting up there at 374 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: the Naval War College, refusing to go to sea and 375 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: writing books on the influence of seapower and history, and 376 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: having Henry Cabot Lodge and Theodore Roosevelt take these intellectual 377 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: ideas in alliance with Bessemer Steel and use them to 378 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: develop in the eighteen nineties the modern American Navy ships 379 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: made out of steel, so that by early in the 380 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: twentieth century we were actually a very serious naval power 381 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: in a way that we never had been before. And 382 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: Lodge is a key person in creating this naval tradition 383 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: and this investment in a very large peacetime navy. That's right. 384 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: My understanding is that Mahan, as you say, was kind 385 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: of a lousy sailor, but of course a terrific writer, 386 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: and he managed to articulate this concept of seapower and 387 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: command of the sea, usually compelling Way. And then Lodge 388 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: and Teddy Roosevelt, who were actually best friends for years, 389 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: both read Mahon's work, and these were not individuals that 390 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: needed to be convinced of the need for a big navy. 391 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: But Mahan's arguments were very useful, and they were even 392 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: more convinced of it after reading him. And so tr 393 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: and Lodge each play their role Lodged in the Senate, 394 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: championing increased naval expenditures, battleships, and not only that, but 395 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: a larger role for the US in some cases overseas, 396 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 1: for example, urging the annexation of Hawaii. To what extent 397 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: do you think Lodge's writing before he became a senator 398 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: helped shape sort of a cool of American nationalism that 399 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: many ways was the dominant historical tradition for about a 400 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: thirty five year period. Well, Latch actually was widely read, 401 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: so he was considered a kind of scholar politician at 402 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: the time. I'm not sure people even realized how effective 403 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: a politician he was, but he was both, and that 404 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: view was widespread. Although it's worth noting that he and 405 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, who wrote each other all the time, they 406 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: thought of themselves as kind of outgunned or outnumbered. They 407 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 1: didn't think of themselves as being the dominant force, at 408 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: least not until eighteen ninety eight, when you know, the 409 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: USS main blows up and then they're able to put 410 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: some of the ideas into practice. Against the Spanish and 411 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. But before that they felt like they were 412 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: making a case that too many Americans just didn't care 413 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: to hear. But they certainly made a splash. And of course, 414 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: once Tar becomes president, then you have a Hamiltonian president. 415 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: I think they were accurate. Me. If you go back 416 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: and look at Theodore Roosevelt's career, there's no reason to 417 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: believe as late as the charge up San Juan Hill 418 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: in war with Spain, there's no reason to believe that 419 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt is going to merge as president. He had 420 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: been a reformer, he had really made people angry, he 421 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: had been a disaster as the chief of police for 422 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: New York City, and he represented sort of the aggressive, reform, 423 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: idea oriented wing of a party which I can say, 424 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: having been in it for a long time, has to 425 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: this day got a very large tradition of trying to 426 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: avoid ideas if possible. I think Lodge and Roosevelt in 427 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: that sense, we're sort of an anomaly for the establishment. 428 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: Republican Party was just focused on building industry, making money, 429 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: and managing things. It was a managerial party more than 430 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: a political party, and these guys really represented an idea 431 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: oriented political system, which of course Roosevelt popularized in a 432 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: way that somebody once said he was the most popular 433 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: present and since George Washington, And of course the Teddy 434 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 1: Bear was named for him, and he was an extraordinary character. 435 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: But the duality, I think what made it really work 436 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: was the duality of Roosevelt as a sort of spectacular 437 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: publicist and Lodge as a very deep thinker, and the 438 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: two of them together somehow formed a kind of remarkable 439 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: team that really changed the US Navy, changed American policies 440 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: in some profound ways, change the Republican Party exactly. And 441 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: when they first meet, it's in eighteen eighty four at 442 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: the Republican National Convention, and they're both obscure individuals at 443 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: the time, and they just hit it off and they 444 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: connect as friends, and they stay in touch for the 445 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: rest of their lives, and that friendship over time really 446 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,479 Speaker 1: bears fruit. Originally, Lodge is really the senior partner in 447 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 1: that partnership for many years, and he's continually trying to 448 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: promote tr. He sees something in tr that's very promising. 449 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: In fact, he literally says, this man could be president 450 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: of the United States. He says it to TR, and 451 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: he says it to other people, and it seems outlandish 452 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: to begin with, right, because TR was this kind of 453 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: eccentric young man. What kind of a prediction is that? 454 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: And so he helps TR get jobs. I mean, he 455 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: helps him to get a job at every level that 456 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: he can, whether it's on civil service reform or in 457 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: the Navy, and even at the level of the vice presidency. 458 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean. The reason that TR was picked, I think, 459 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: is because the New York Republican Party was sick of him. 460 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: There was too much of a troublemaker. Let's get him 461 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: out of New York and send him to DC. So 462 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: that's the central reason as to why TR was picked 463 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: for vice president by the McKinley team in nineteen hundred. 464 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: The wonderful line of Marcanna, who knew what a troublemaker 465 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: of Theodore Roosevelt would be, who happened to not be 466 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: there when they picked Roosevelt to be vice president, and 467 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: he said, my god, do you realize he is one 468 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: heartbeat away from being president? And of course McKinley was 469 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: shot and killed in Buffalo a few months later. And 470 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: now you have Theodore Roosevelt, who is endlessly energetic gale. 471 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: That is just amazing. So when you think of all 472 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: this that you've been working on and the frame of 473 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: reference you've been building, how does that shape you're thinking 474 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: about the Trump presidency and what Trump was trying to accomplish, 475 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 1: and his efforts to explain an America first kind of nationalism. 476 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: What I argue in Age of Iron, the book that 477 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: came out a couple of years ago, was that Trump. 478 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to argue that Trump goes back and 479 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: looks at the documents. I don't know if he does 480 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: or if he doesn't. I'm trying to argue that he 481 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: instinctively tapped into an older strain of American nationalism on 482 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: foreign policy, but also on a lot of other issues. 483 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: So if you look at the priorities that administration, in 484 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: some ways it's reminiscent of an older Republican party, which 485 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: is easy to misunderstand. I mean a lot of critics 486 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: just immediately lumped it in with what they imagined were 487 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: the worst global trends of authoritarianism and so on. I 488 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: think actually there was a kind of instinctive American populism, 489 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: a kind of instinctive American nationalism acame through and I 490 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: think that whatever people say or think about Trump personally, 491 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: he changed the conversation. He opened up possibilities. He sort 492 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: of cracked Orthodox seas in a way that hadn't been 493 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: done before. And now it's a different game, it's a 494 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: different party, and there's a lot of different options moving forward, 495 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: which actually makes it kind of interesting. It was always 496 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: fascinating me because you have people say, well, he's going 497 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: to be isolationists. Then he goes to his first foreign trip. 498 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: He ends up in Riod, having arranged with the King 499 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: of Saudi Arabia to bring some fifty seven Muslim countries 500 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: together in a meeting which had never ever before occurred. 501 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: Spends three days in Saudi Arabia, leaves there and goes 502 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: to the Vatican to see the Pope and meet with 503 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: the Italian President, and goes by way of Israel, where 504 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: he moves the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Something 505 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: I felt personally because I had authored the bill when 506 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: I was a speaker to do that. You know, this 507 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: is a guy who supposedly, this America first Isola lationist, 508 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: and yet if you look around the world, you know 509 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: he's the first American president to step into North Korea. 510 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: He actually gets Kim Jong un to leave Korea, take 511 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: a train and go all the way down to me 512 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: with him, and I mean, it's kind of remarkable, and 513 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: yet the news media can't grasp the complexity. And this 514 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: is I think where Lodge comes in. There is a 515 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: complexity to an American centered nationalism that has deep interest 516 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: in the world, but it's an interest based on American 517 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: concerns and it also respects them. Something you quote Large 518 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: as saying very explicitly, we assume other countries are going 519 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: to have their own interest. We don't think that's bad 520 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: if you think that that's realistic, and we just want 521 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: them to recognize that we have our interest and not 522 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: bury these mutual interests in some kind of babble about 523 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: some kind of phony internationalism that doesn't ever work. And 524 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: as it struck me that your book Age of Iron 525 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: is a very reassertion of a tradition and a pattern 526 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: which goes back to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and 527 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: a sort of reluctant acceptance that they had to become 528 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: an independent country because the British monarchy was too corrupt 529 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: and too dictatorial for them to survive as British citizens 530 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: and freedom that they would end up ultimately losing their 531 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: liberty and therefore they had no choice. And I think 532 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: in that sense, Age of Iron is a very helpful 533 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: starting point for people who are interested in understanding what 534 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: I think will be the dominant Republican model for the 535 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: next generation. I think the work you're doing is extraordinary, 536 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: and I think your upcoming book. I hope you will 537 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: come back and talk to us when Henry Cabot Lodge 538 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: comes out and we can continue this dialogue. But we 539 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: will certainly recommend to our listeners that they can get 540 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: a copy of your book Age of Iron on Conservative Nationalism, 541 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: and we look forward very much to helping make popular 542 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: Henry Cabot Lodge, who is in fact a fascinating gun. 543 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you taking the time to join me 544 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: into of this conversation. Thank you so much. It's great 545 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: talking with you. Thank you to my guest, Colin Deweck. 546 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: You can get a link to buy his book Age 547 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: of Iron on Conservative Nationalism on our showpage at Newtsworld 548 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: dot com. News World is produced by Gingwish Street sixty 549 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Gornsey Slow. Our producer 550 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: is Rebecca Howe and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 551 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 552 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. 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