Speaker 1: You know what happened to me this morning? What I
Speaker 1: looked at my calendar. This is what I do at
Speaker 1: the beginning of each day. I wake up, look at
Speaker 1: my calendar and make sure, like I know when all
Speaker 1: of my Zoom meetings are. And I didn't see anything
Speaker 1: until ten thirty. It was something I had with you,
Speaker 1: So I was like, Okay, I get to see my friend.
Speaker 1: So I'm just walking around the house in my pjs
Speaker 1: and then I get an email from somebody saying, here's
Speaker 1: the Zoom link, see you soon, and I panicked. I
Speaker 1: was like, what is this for? What am I doing?
Speaker 1: What's going on? This has to be wrong. So I'm
Speaker 1: looking up every calendar I had. I look at the
Speaker 1: calendar that I write down in the calendar on my phone,
Speaker 1: the calendar on my computer. I'm just trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what's going on. And then I finally figured it out.
Speaker 1: I had forgotten that I had a meeting, and I, well,
Speaker 1: did you have time to prepare for it? No, there
Speaker 1: was no time. There was no time at all. I
Speaker 1: only had time to run upstairs, throw a turtleneck on
Speaker 1: over my pajamas and get in front of the camera.
Speaker 1: And they were like good morning TZ and I was like,
Speaker 1: good morning, Hoddy, It's so great to see you. I
Speaker 1: didn't even know what I was supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm just gonna have to wing this.
Speaker 1: Do you know how stressful that is?
Speaker 2: Listen, that's stressful for anybody, but I know it's stressful
Speaker 2: for my friend because you like to plan. The only
Speaker 2: good part of that story is that you were able
Speaker 2: to throw on a turtleneck right. Yes, we love turtlenecks.
Speaker 1: I have an emergency turtleneck that is right next to
Speaker 1: my bed, just in.
Speaker 2: Case you just turned writing to Steve Jobs. Man, I
Speaker 2: know you were stressed out. That would be tough evil
Speaker 2: for me. You know, I'm okay with being last minute, but.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you do it.
Speaker 2: You don't know what's going on. You just clicking into
Speaker 2: the zoom. You don't know what you're gonna get.
Speaker 1: I don't know who's going to be there. I didn't
Speaker 1: know what they're about to ask me. I just knew
Speaker 1: that I had to be there and that I had
Speaker 1: two minutes to get there.
Speaker 2: And I would have had to say I'm sorry, I
Speaker 2: thought this was spam.
Speaker 1: Link only.
Speaker 2: I thought you were hacked. I saw your link, but
Speaker 2: I also saw an email from you about gift cards.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Doe Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,
Speaker 1: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship. You know,
Speaker 1: we're basically at the holidays, and for a lot of
Speaker 1: people that means a lot of anxiety. Yes, whether you're
Speaker 1: cooking for a big group of folks or reconnecting with
Speaker 1: your family members after a very long time, the holidays
Speaker 1: just have a way of feeling so challenging, and they
Speaker 1: can really be filled with all kinds of anxieties from
Speaker 1: day to day. I always think about you when the
Speaker 1: holiday season comes around, because you are the hostess with emostess,
Speaker 1: and I always felt like it's rare that Zakida is
Speaker 1: not going to be cooking something, even if it's something
Speaker 1: small like Okay, we're not doing a whole turkey. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna do like a turkey breast for me and
Speaker 1: a couple of people. But it's always to me a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff, So I know I'm over here feeling
Speaker 1: anxious for you. For you, it's probably not always a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. So one man's anxiety is another men's party.
Speaker 1: So this week we're talking all about anxiety, and specifically,
Speaker 1: we really wanted to know more about whether or not
Speaker 1: we can actually take our everyday anxiety and spin it
Speaker 1: into something that can help us.
Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 1: What do we know? Well, I think that anxiety is
Speaker 1: something that a lot of people deal with, Like, some
Speaker 1: people don't like to use the term anxiety, but I
Speaker 1: think everybody at some point in their lives have felt anxious. Yes,
Speaker 1: it also feels like it's being talked about way more
Speaker 1: than it used to be. I feel like I see
Speaker 1: it everywhere, people talking about it, social media sharing about
Speaker 1: anxiety and tips and tools and tricks. So I do
Speaker 1: like the openness around anxiety. Yeah, there have been a
Speaker 1: lot of people who have said I struggle with anxiety.
Speaker 1: These are the things that you know, I don't like.
Speaker 1: Do people that you would, I guess assume like the
Speaker 1: type of industry there in, whether they're actors or influencers
Speaker 1: or YouTubers, and you're just really surprised that this is
Speaker 1: something that they deal with. But it also, you know,
Speaker 1: makes a lot of people feel seen because it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's not just me, it's also these other people that stereotypically,
Speaker 1: I guess people would think wouldn't deal with anxiety. I
Speaker 1: think another thing that we know is that anxiety is
Speaker 1: not binary, like you're anxious or you're not. There's a
Speaker 1: spectrum of anxieties that you can feel, and how it
Speaker 1: manifest is different from person to person.
Speaker 2: And I think we also know that manifestation does have
Speaker 2: some biological underpinnings. I don't know what they are, but
Speaker 2: I do know that there is something that can happen
Speaker 2: to your body after a lot of anxiety over and
Speaker 2: over and over again.
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. So what do we want
Speaker 1: to know?
Speaker 2: Has anxiety always been around?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Is it new? You think the cavemen were anxious?
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, but it seems like there
Speaker 2: was plenty to be uncertain about during those times.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just think about Fred Flinstone and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was definitely had an anxiety problem. Another thing I
Speaker 1: want to know is what parts of our anxiety are healthy?
Speaker 1: Is there a such thing as healthy anxiety? Is there
Speaker 1: like little bits of like anxiousness that might help us?
Speaker 1: Or is it just all bad?
Speaker 2: Yeah that's a really good point. And then if it
Speaker 2: is all bad, what can we do? Yes, help throw
Speaker 2: me a life jacket, a rope something. How do I
Speaker 2: exit this program? That's what I want to do. Let's
Speaker 2: jump into the dissection. Our guest for today's lab is
Speaker 2: doctor Wendy Suzuki.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm doctor Wendy Suzuki. I am a professor of neuroscience
Speaker 3: and psychology. I've been at New York University for twenty
Speaker 3: three years. So I am an author, a teacher, and
Speaker 3: a neuroscientist.
Speaker 1: Doctor Suzuki's new book is called Good Anxiety, Harnessing the
Speaker 1: Power of the most Misunderstood Emotion. It's not like a
Speaker 1: lot of other books out there that provide tips for
Speaker 1: managing anxiety. With this book, doctor Suzuki goes back to
Speaker 1: the origins of anxiety, how it's evolved, and why it's
Speaker 1: such a big problem today. With that groundwork as the
Speaker 1: basis for our understanding, she introduces a new way to
Speaker 1: really think about our anxiety, and that way will kind
Speaker 1: of help us harness its power so that we can
Speaker 1: lead healthy, happy lives. Let me tell y'all, we need
Speaker 1: this yet. So I think we're all pretty familiar with anxiety,
Speaker 1: what it is and how it feels, especially after the
Speaker 1: last few years.
Speaker 3: Anxiety is that fear or worry that typically comes with
Speaker 3: uncertain situations, And so with that definition, you could understand
Speaker 3: why these days, in our uncertain times, anxiety is really.
Speaker 1: Going through the roof.
Speaker 2: And I think now's a good time to kind of
Speaker 2: pause and differentiate between a couple different types of anxiety, because,
Speaker 2: like you said earlier, TT, anxiety really is a spectrum.
Speaker 2: So today we're talking about anxiety on the lower end
Speaker 2: of that spectrum, which not the Suzuki calls every day anxiety,
Speaker 2: but that's very different from clinical anxiety, which is at
Speaker 2: the opposite end of the spectrum. Clinical anxiety is a
Speaker 2: medical disorder characterized by intense, excessive, and persistent worry and fear.
Speaker 2: Clinical anxiety is debilitating. It gets in the way of
Speaker 2: your ability to live your life day to day, and
Speaker 2: it should be diagnosed and treated by medical professionals. While
Speaker 2: every day anxiety might not be all consuming, is definitely
Speaker 2: annoying and exhausting, and it's way more common than you
Speaker 2: might think.
Speaker 3: It feels like a weight around your neck, it feels
Speaker 3: like a weight on your chest, and even before the pandemic,
Speaker 3: the stat that blew me away is that ninety percent
Speaker 3: of Americans before the pandemic raised their hands and said,
Speaker 3: I experience anxiety ninety percent, So imagine what that number
Speaker 3: is today. So basically all of us have anxiety, is
Speaker 3: the bottom line.
Speaker 1: Ninety percent is a really high number, and that's before
Speaker 1: one of the most stressful things that any of us
Speaker 1: have been through in our lifetime, right, so I can
Speaker 1: only imagine what the number is now.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. You know, this makes me think back
Speaker 2: to LAP thirty two with an Helen Peterson where we
Speaker 2: talked about burnout and all these other things that can
Speaker 2: kind of trigger or layer multiple different types of anxieties
Speaker 2: and manifest in different ways. Absolutely, and what this also.
Speaker 1: Says to me is that if you're feeling anxious, you
Speaker 1: are not alone. Look to left and to the right.
Speaker 1: It's all of us.
Speaker 2: Turn to your neighbor alone and say, neighbor, do you
Speaker 2: have any kind of types of low grade or everyday anxiety?
Speaker 2: Like how does it show up for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think for me, I've always thought of myself
Speaker 1: as just the overall anxious person, Like I try and
Speaker 1: not expose people to my anxieties and just try and
Speaker 1: counterbalance it with like just extreme like positivity as often
Speaker 1: as I can, but that also makes me even more
Speaker 1: anxious because it doesn't address the real problem. Like I think,
Speaker 1: I'm always worrying about every little thing, like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: is this the right decision? Is this the right next step?
Speaker 1: Is just the right thing for me to do? And
Speaker 1: I think that usually it manifests me getting at some
Speaker 1: point really really exhausted and tired from just like my
Speaker 1: brain doing all of these calculations and trying to predict
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, what about you.
Speaker 2: I think you know, over the past couple of years,
Speaker 2: I've either developed more anxiousness or anxiety or just become
Speaker 2: more aware of it. Right. I think now the things
Speaker 2: that kind of trigger anxiety for me are big uncertainties.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know me, I'm generally like, huh, we'll
Speaker 2: figure it out. Oh this will happen.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: My friend is cool as a cucumber, But big level
Speaker 2: stuff that could have major rippling effects. I like to
Speaker 2: kind of know. I like to have those general, large
Speaker 2: what do you call those like place markets. I like
Speaker 2: to have those things set in stone, and when I'm
Speaker 2: not sure, it feels like the scientific mind gone haywire, right,
Speaker 2: it's just a lot of hypotheses, no conclusions, no conclusions.
Speaker 1: I feel that. I feel that. So we all have
Speaker 1: everyday anxiety, and we've all got our own ways of
Speaker 1: dealing with it. Then why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 2: Well, doctor Suzuki says that even if you and your
Speaker 2: anxiety have quote unquote an understanding with each other and
Speaker 2: it's something you've just learned to live with over time,
Speaker 2: it can still have very real and potentially serious effects
Speaker 2: on your overall health.
Speaker 3: Because anxiety and the underlined stress response, if left unchocked,
Speaker 3: leads to high levels of chronic stress, high levels of
Speaker 3: chronic cortisol, that stress hormone.
Speaker 2: Cortisol is like your body's built in alarm system, and
Speaker 2: it does all kinds of important stuff like regulating blood pressure.
Speaker 2: It can increase blood sugar, keep your inflammation in check.
Speaker 2: It even can control the sleep wake cycle. So you
Speaker 2: can imagine if the cortisol levels in your blood are
Speaker 2: out of whack, it can do a lot of scary
Speaker 2: things in the body.
Speaker 1: I have not heard of cortisol, but I've heard of cortizone.
Speaker 2: Are they related closely related? Like if you get a
Speaker 2: cortizone shot or a hydrocortisone shot. It's converted in the
Speaker 2: body by an enzyme into cortisol, Okay, And so it
Speaker 2: can also be used like when you say treating inflammation.
Speaker 2: If you know somebody got a courtizone shot in their
Speaker 2: knee or something like that. Yeah, there you have it.
Speaker 1: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: And so you can imagine that abnormal levels lead to
Speaker 2: all kinds of health issues, not just in the digestive system,
Speaker 2: the heart, or the reproductive system. You can also affect
Speaker 2: the brain.
Speaker 3: Finally, in the brain, it leads to first damage and
Speaker 3: then death of two key brain areas that I've studied
Speaker 3: for a long time in my career. The hippocampus, critical
Speaker 3: for memory, and the prefuntal cortex are executive control function
Speaker 3: of the brain, helping you make good decisions. Imagine brain
Speaker 3: cells in those areas being damaged, and particularly in the
Speaker 3: hippa campus, dying because of high levels of long term
Speaker 3: stress and anxiety. That is why we want to talk anxiety,
Speaker 3: find a different way to channel it so that you
Speaker 3: don't go down that route.
Speaker 1: That's scary. But doctor Suzuki's book isn't all doom and gloom.
Speaker 1: She argues that by really understanding our anxiety, it can
Speaker 1: actually be a really good thing.
Speaker 3: Anxiety is one of our core emotions. It serves something
Speaker 3: really important. Once we find that thing and we understand
Speaker 3: that thing that it serves, we can kind of try
Speaker 3: and focus the energy and the level of that emotion
Speaker 3: so that it could help us. We're still going to
Speaker 3: feel those uncomfortable emotions, but we're going to make it
Speaker 3: work for us in a brand new way.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm looking for. Help me figure out
Speaker 2: how to make anxiety work work for me. Yes, put
Speaker 2: these nerves to work right. And so I think the
Speaker 2: starting place is for us to understand why we're having
Speaker 2: anxiety at all. What's the point.
Speaker 3: Anxiety at its core is protective for us. It's actually
Speaker 3: essential for our survival. And the best way to understand
Speaker 3: this is to kind of travel back in your mind
Speaker 3: two point five million years ago and imagine there's a
Speaker 3: woman two point five million years ago. She just has
Speaker 3: a little baby, and she's gathering berries at the edge
Speaker 3: of a lake, and suddenly she hears a twig crack,
Speaker 3: and that could be danger. That could be a lion,
Speaker 3: that could be a tiger, that could be something that
Speaker 3: could kill her and her baby. And so that is
Speaker 3: when anxiety is immediately deployed and the stress response.
Speaker 1: And the stress response is what many of us know
Speaker 1: as fight or flight mechanism. Through a series of really
Speaker 1: complex interactions in our brain and body, it enables us
Speaker 1: to respond almost instantly to a perceived threat of danger.
Speaker 3: And what I illustrate in the book is that in fact,
Speaker 3: we use that same exact system in a similar way.
Speaker 3: If there is a noise by the window, then you
Speaker 3: have that stress response, that anxiety response what is is
Speaker 3: it a robber and works in the same way. But
Speaker 3: the problem is that in this day and age, it's
Speaker 3: the equivalent of hearing those twigs crack five times a second.
Speaker 2: So what doctor Suzuki is saying is that we're all
Speaker 2: in the forest picking berries and we're constantly surrounded by lions.
Speaker 2: Everything that's happening is making this think is that a lion?
Speaker 2: Is that a lion? Is that a lion? Over and
Speaker 2: over and over again.
Speaker 1: What kind of life is this?
Speaker 2: Okay, I might be exaggering a little bit, so maybe
Speaker 2: it's not as immediately threatening as a lion, But that's
Speaker 2: what so many things that are.
Speaker 1: Stressing us out. Do youar At the very beginning of
Speaker 1: the pandemic, That's what it felt like. I felt like
Speaker 1: every single person was a lion with coronavirus and they
Speaker 1: were just ah in my face, and I was going
Speaker 1: to get sick or pass it on to somebody else.
Speaker 1: Everything felt that anxious. Going to the grocery store, Oh,
Speaker 1: that was the most I would be in the grocery store,
Speaker 1: sweating through my clothes because I was so nervous about everything,
Speaker 1: and then disinfecting all the groceries. Everything was a lion,
Speaker 1: including that bag of chips.
Speaker 2: And so when you think about something like that collectively
Speaker 2: that we're all going through. But then people can have
Speaker 2: their own personal issue, so like the everyday stress of
Speaker 2: their job or relationships, and then there's the bigger global
Speaker 2: issues like climate change or political insurrection. That's a lot
Speaker 2: of twigs. Those are some of those are branches. So
Speaker 2: those are trees falling tree a tree.
Speaker 1: Okay, it ain't no branch, it's a tree falling on
Speaker 1: your neck. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then even if you're in your home insulated from
Speaker 2: all those things, it's coming right through your cell phone,
Speaker 2: it's coming right up on your TV alerts. At the bottom.
Speaker 2: You know, information about what's happening in the world is
Speaker 2: constantly going right to your eyeballs no matter where you look.
Speaker 1: I have never thought about that, how the information age
Speaker 1: has introduced levels of stress into our lives that weren't
Speaker 1: there previously. Yeah, that's such a good point, Zee, but
Speaker 1: I don't want to live in this professional anxious state
Speaker 1: that's not actually helping protect against any of the threats,
Speaker 1: and as doctor Suzuki explained earlier, it can actually be
Speaker 1: really unhealthy in the long term. It's not making us
Speaker 1: feel protected at all. System it feels like it's kind
Speaker 1: of broken.
Speaker 3: And my answer is it's not broken. The volume is
Speaker 3: just turned way too high and we've lost that protective
Speaker 3: aspect of this emotion.
Speaker 2: First things first, I never thought of anxiety as an
Speaker 2: emotion before. I don't think I really have either. I've
Speaker 2: just looked at it as a deficiency. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: it makes total sense, and it actually helps put it
Speaker 2: in perspective because emotions pass. Anxiety is not forever. And
Speaker 2: if we think of it, like she said, as something
Speaker 2: that's turned up too high, maybe we can be aware
Speaker 2: of these things when we just need to turn the
Speaker 2: volume down.
Speaker 1: A little bit more.
Speaker 3: The first step of that is turning the volume down
Speaker 3: so that we don't have so many twigs cracking all
Speaker 3: the time and just launching us into this stress and
Speaker 3: anxiety cycle. The best first way is my favorite way,
Speaker 3: because it is deep breathing. You might say, oh, I've
Speaker 3: heard that before, but did you know that deep breathing
Speaker 3: is actually activating a natural stress reduction center of our
Speaker 3: nervous system.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we gotta pause right there. I did not
Speaker 1: know that we had a stress reduction center in our
Speaker 1: nervous system.
Speaker 2: Nobody taught me that.
Speaker 1: I thought I had to purchase that on Amazon sage.
Speaker 1: What is it? Lavender? They put lavender at everything to
Speaker 1: tell you relax. I didn't know that I had built
Speaker 1: in lavender.
Speaker 3: How come everybody knows about fight or flight and nobody
Speaker 3: knows about rest and digest?
Speaker 2: Rest and digests? We need that on the T shirt.
Speaker 1: Ste preach.
Speaker 2: Yes, the neuroscientists among us also know this as the
Speaker 2: parasympathetic nervous system.
Speaker 1: That sounds very fond.
Speaker 2: See, I like rest and digest better, and.
Speaker 3: So the best way we have conscious control of kind
Speaker 3: of getting that process going is deep breathing. I can't
Speaker 3: consciously decrease my heart rate, but I can slow my
Speaker 3: breathing down.
Speaker 2: And another way to turn down the volume on our
Speaker 2: anxiety is through exercise, even just ten minutes of walking. Oh,
Speaker 2: I know, I know you don't like it.
Speaker 1: I know you don't like it. Can we give this part?
Speaker 1: But tit?
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. Doctor Suzuki talks about doing this experiment
Speaker 2: and having people just walk at the end, and people
Speaker 2: report it, you know, feeling less stress. Now, whether it's
Speaker 2: just in the mind or not. I want to feel
Speaker 2: less stressed, and so I will be taking a ten
Speaker 2: minute walk because I need that positive effect.
Speaker 1: My friend b bike in thirty miles. A ten minute
Speaker 1: walk ain't nothing, but for me, that is a hike.
Speaker 2: Listen, I need it.
Speaker 3: Every single time you move your body, you are stimulating
Speaker 3: a whole wide range of neurochemicals to be released in
Speaker 3: your brain. I like to give the image of a
Speaker 3: neurochemical bubble back that you're giving yourself every time you
Speaker 3: move your body. And what is in this bubble bass
Speaker 3: things that you have heard of, dopamine, serotonin, neu adrenaline,
Speaker 3: and growth factors. It is clear that long term exercise
Speaker 3: can help protect the brain from aging and neurodegeneral disease states.
Speaker 1: Once we turn the volume down on our anxiety, we
Speaker 1: can then take the next important step, which is to
Speaker 1: interpret it. Focus in on those uncomfortable feelings of anxiety
Speaker 1: and ask ourselves, what's making me so anxious and why
Speaker 1: am I feeling so anxious? This introspection can tell you
Speaker 1: a lot about yourself and what's important to you.
Speaker 2: I know, for me, my dad used to always say,
Speaker 2: if you're not nervous, it just means you're not taking
Speaker 2: it serious enough. I don't know if I still agree
Speaker 2: with this, it means you care school thought. But I
Speaker 2: think wanting to do well, wanting to show up, those
Speaker 2: are the things that can make me anxious because I
Speaker 2: don't want to not do those things. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there are lots of groups of
Speaker 1: people that feel like they have to do that all
Speaker 1: the time and that can be exhausted. Show up and
Speaker 1: be perfect.
Speaker 2: I had to give up perfectly a long time ago, girl,
Speaker 2: I mean, just show up a little bit. But I
Speaker 2: think once we start asking ourselves those questions TT it
Speaker 2: really is is kind of harnessing that power. And I
Speaker 2: want to get to the part where not Thissuszuki can't
Speaker 2: help me make it work for me in a positive way.
Speaker 3: Actually, one of the things that I learned that was
Speaker 3: most surprising that I learned from writing the book is
Speaker 3: I found myself making friends with my own anxiety. Why
Speaker 3: because I started to appreciate how valuable these uncomfortable emotions were.
Speaker 3: They're there to say, hey, this is important. It's a
Speaker 3: threat detection system. This is important that you do well here.
Speaker 3: It means a lot to you.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like your dad wasn't wrong. Okay, oh
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: I hope he doesn't hold the curtains.
Speaker 1: You weren't wrong. I'm here to say it. I'll send
Speaker 1: you a text message later. Being stressed out can me
Speaker 1: you care about something because you really want to do well,
Speaker 1: and this is really helpful. I feel like quieting the
Speaker 1: noise with a deep breath and then asking important questions.
Speaker 1: Making observations about our anxiety are already so helpful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it's so important to first acknowledge
Speaker 2: and then slow the pace down a little bit and
Speaker 2: say it's not a lion. It's not a lion. That's
Speaker 2: way better already than just I'm gonna power through this
Speaker 2: or I'm gonna shove these feelings down.
Speaker 1: Doctor Suzuki says, we can even take it one step further.
Speaker 1: Once we understand and observe our anxiety, we can actually
Speaker 1: see it for the gift that it is, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that right after the break. We're back and
Speaker 1: we want to tell you all about next week's lab.
Speaker 1: One thing I'm really stressed out about is thinking about
Speaker 1: Christmas shopping.
Speaker 2: Oh that makes me excited for next week's lab though.
Speaker 1: Yes, because we're talking all about the shipping issues that
Speaker 1: have been going on since the pandemic started in this
Speaker 1: whole trucker shortage that the kid knew about that no
Speaker 1: clue what's going on, and.
Speaker 2: We're talking about it just in time for Black Friday.
Speaker 1: M hm. Okay, so let's get back into the dissection.
Speaker 1: We're talking to doctor Wendy Suzuki about her new book
Speaker 1: Good Anxiety, and before.
Speaker 2: We dig any deeper, we just want to level set
Speaker 2: and remind everybody that we're talking about day to day anxiety.
Speaker 2: If you're experiencing severe anxiety that interferes with your ability
Speaker 2: to do day to day activities, we really encourage you
Speaker 2: to seek help from a medical professional, and we've also
Speaker 2: included some resources on our show notes at dope lavspodcast
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: We've already talked about how to turn down the volume
Speaker 1: on our anxiety and observe it, and just doing that
Speaker 1: can be helpful.
Speaker 2: But doctor Suzuki.
Speaker 1: Says that once we're able to quiet the noise and
Speaker 1: listen to our anxiety, we can actually use it to
Speaker 1: our advantage.
Speaker 2: So let's take an example. What's one of the most
Speaker 2: common things that you do as a result of your anxiety,
Speaker 2: and how can you make it work for you. Doctor
Speaker 2: Suzuki mentions the what if list.
Speaker 3: My what if list hits right before I'm going to
Speaker 3: go to sleep, and you know sleep is coming, is
Speaker 3: going to feel so good, and then sudden, what if
Speaker 3: I didn't send that email? Or what if I did
Speaker 3: send the email and you know my wording was wrong.
Speaker 1: I think we've all been there. I will wake up
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and mean, like, oh man,
Speaker 1: what if I didn't turn off the stove, or did
Speaker 1: I lock the front door, or oh my goodness, I
Speaker 1: forgot to update that document from my boss, and so
Speaker 1: now I'm scrambling.
Speaker 2: Honey, at least you are waking up when I tell
Speaker 2: you I cannot go to sleep if I am anxious
Speaker 2: about things, or if I am what if this and this?
Speaker 2: What does that mean? Why did they say that? I
Speaker 2: should have said this? It's just ongoing. And then I
Speaker 2: look at my Apple Watch and it's like four fifty
Speaker 2: seven am.
Speaker 1: No oh, no, friend, that sounds awful.
Speaker 2: So how do we turn that into a gift? What's
Speaker 2: the magic spell?
Speaker 3: The gift that comes. It's a gift of productivity, and
Speaker 3: that gift is switching your what if list into a
Speaker 3: to do list.
Speaker 1: I said, okay, that's okay.
Speaker 3: I'm going to note all those things down and I'm
Speaker 3: going to take action on them tomorrow. And why does
Speaker 3: that help? It helps because anxiety and the threat response
Speaker 3: evolved for us to take action in terms of the
Speaker 3: fighting or running away. That is a physical action, and
Speaker 3: so you can relieve some of that pressure by taking
Speaker 3: a cognitive action sending an email, which is kind of
Speaker 3: an action. You know, your fingers are moving. It's a
Speaker 3: cognitive action, but it is one that will help you
Speaker 3: turn your anxiety what if list into a productive.
Speaker 1: To do list.
Speaker 2: You know what, I really like this and I hadn't
Speaker 2: thought about it, but I use this journaling app, and
Speaker 2: so if I'm up late and I'm feeling like that,
Speaker 2: I write all those feelings down and I can make
Speaker 2: little bullet point lists in there about things I should
Speaker 2: do blah blah blah blah blah, and sometimes that helps.
Speaker 2: Is this the same thing that makes.
Speaker 1: A lot of sense. It's kind of like redirecting your energy.
Speaker 1: Like instead of just letting those things roll around in
Speaker 1: your head and so you're tossing and turned into the bed,
Speaker 1: you push that energy into that journal and be done
Speaker 1: with it and you don't have to worry about like
Speaker 1: what if I forget right? And it's great because you're
Speaker 1: not surrendering to your anxiety and giving up the sleep
Speaker 1: that you need to be able to be productive the
Speaker 1: next day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you kind of get to prioritize rest and
Speaker 2: you get to say, Okay, anxiety and all the stuff
Speaker 2: is tied to I'll deal with y'all tomorrow, rest and digest.
Speaker 2: But I think all of this really lives in this
Speaker 2: like delicate balance though tt If you give too little
Speaker 2: attention to your anxiety, you're going to drop a bunch
Speaker 2: of balls or things that you need to get done
Speaker 2: and then You're gonna be anxious about that. If you
Speaker 2: give it too much attention, you're gonna spiral into you know,
Speaker 2: anxiety tornado. And so I'm really curious about the sweet
Speaker 2: spot and I hope it's broad, and I hope it's big.
Speaker 2: You right, If it's as thin as a hair, we're
Speaker 2: not gonna hit it.
Speaker 3: Yes, activation energy comes from focus, it comes from attention.
Speaker 3: It comes from that nervous energy that is really equivalent
Speaker 3: to anxiety. As that goes up, your performance goes up.
Speaker 3: As your focus productivity, and in fact anxiety goes up,
Speaker 3: your performance goes up up to a peak.
Speaker 2: You know what this makes me think about what procrastination?
Speaker 2: I work best under some pressure?
Speaker 1: Can you say this all the time? I am the opposite.
Speaker 1: When the pressure is on, my nerves get so bad
Speaker 1: that I feel like I am going to mess this up.
Speaker 1: I mean, it usually turns out okay if I like
Speaker 1: accidentally procrastinate, but oh my gosh, I feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of people feel this way. Where putting it off
Speaker 1: the last minute and all of those juices are flowing
Speaker 1: and your anxieties hitting the right spot, all the good
Speaker 1: things come together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like putting fuel and answer in the gas
Speaker 2: than you know, because I'm the exact opposite. I don't
Speaker 2: want to be stressed out about something that's not coming
Speaker 2: right away right because I'm like, please move that out
Speaker 2: of my view. You're blocking the picture. But it also
Speaker 2: feels like I'm just idling. It's just burning gas for
Speaker 2: something that's not really a go. And because of the
Speaker 2: type of person I am, I can give it as
Speaker 2: much time as is available. So I prefer if we
Speaker 2: keep that time short. I can just be efficient in
Speaker 2: that window.
Speaker 1: I remember when I was packing for a trip, and
Speaker 1: if it's a big trip where I'm going to be
Speaker 1: even the country, I like to start packing like three
Speaker 1: weeks prior to take off. I feel like I need
Speaker 1: that time to be able to say, okay, let me
Speaker 1: make sure I have these things. I make a list
Speaker 1: of all the things that I want to take my friend.
Speaker 1: It never fails. The night before one am like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? Oh? Packing for my international trip tomorrow
Speaker 1: for today in a few hours, And I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, what if you forget something? She's like, it'll
Speaker 1: be fine.
Speaker 2: They'll sell me another one. And our last trip together,
Speaker 2: you didn't have toothpaste and I had it, got my toothpaste,
Speaker 2: you see how that works. And she had it, and
Speaker 2: she gave me the whole tube.
Speaker 1: She said, just take it. I had to.
Speaker 2: I just feel like, you know, that's also what happens
Speaker 2: when you packed last minute. Just I don't know if
Speaker 2: I put that in there. Another one. I think we
Speaker 2: need to rebrand procrastination because maybe it's a life hack,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's my best self.
Speaker 1: I think depending on who you are, it can be.
Speaker 2: But you also got to tell the truth because sometimes
Speaker 2: I don't hit the mark, but we won't get into that.
Speaker 3: But then it can go over so too much activation,
Speaker 3: too much nervous energy, too much anxiety, and decreasing performance
Speaker 3: if it goes too high.
Speaker 2: Is that how you feel like it gets too high
Speaker 2: too close.
Speaker 1: To the end. Yeah, but the runway for it being
Speaker 1: too high is big for me, Like if it's a
Speaker 1: week before that's when I'm like, okay, I'm in trouble,
Speaker 1: even though I'm not it's totally fine. That's the place
Speaker 1: where I'm trying to get into and trying to use
Speaker 1: some of these things that doctor Suzuki is talking about,
Speaker 1: where it's like, okay, write down these things so that
Speaker 1: you feel like, Okay, this time, I'm gonna tackle it,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't have to be so much nervous energy, right,
Speaker 1: But like, as things get closer and closer, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm staring down a freight train.
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully you can find that window of when you're
Speaker 2: just like really focused, really productive, and just on it,
Speaker 2: because I know I miss mine sometimes. Yeah, And I
Speaker 2: think it's about too close to the mark.
Speaker 1: I think it's about also being patient with yourself so
Speaker 1: you can figure out what your sweet spot is. Like
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to be able to figure
Speaker 1: it out today, but maybe over the next you know,
Speaker 1: a few weeks or months, I can try some things
Speaker 1: out and see what feels good. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Doctor Suzuki says that with more practice, people can learn
Speaker 2: how to get in the zone more consistently and use
Speaker 2: the energy from their anxiety to propel them forward.
Speaker 3: It is really valuable to appreciate that there is an
Speaker 3: optimum level of focus and anxiety, so that focus can
Speaker 3: increase with anxiety, but too high and you start decreasing
Speaker 3: your performance level. And part of the kind of the
Speaker 3: goal of the book is to make people aware that
Speaker 3: they've already experienced this, and can they get their kind
Speaker 3: of use their own awareness of this to kind of
Speaker 3: push their own focus and anxiety to that optimum.
Speaker 1: Level so we can leverage our anxiety and unlock our
Speaker 1: inner superhero. And that sounds so much better than just
Speaker 1: you know, stuff and down. Yes, my superhero power is
Speaker 1: last minute Larry. Okay, you need something done at the
Speaker 1: last minute, You're like, I only have fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2: Can you review these slots?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Okay. My superhero is planned Patty. Okay, she has lists,
Speaker 1: she's got everything organized, and she's gonna make sure that
Speaker 1: in advance, you know what's expected, all right, So we
Speaker 1: really want to know what you identify as. Are you
Speaker 1: a plan Patty or a last minute Larry? Look in
Speaker 1: your Spotify app right now. There should be a poll
Speaker 1: that pops up and let us know who you identify
Speaker 1: with me Planned Patty. Where's the key a last minute Larry?
Speaker 2: All right, it's time for one thing t t what's
Speaker 2: one thing you've been enjoying this week? Okay, the one
Speaker 2: thing I've been enjoying this week is that my dad
Speaker 2: he actually gave me a bunch of old videos from
Speaker 2: the late eighties early nineties, and I was able to
Speaker 2: use this company called eye Memories, and I sent all
Speaker 2: of the videos to them, and they were able to
Speaker 2: digitize all those videos so that we can actually watch
Speaker 2: them because they're all old VHS's and I could tell
Speaker 2: some of them were starting to degrade and my dad.
Speaker 1: I knew my dad really wanted those videos. So I
Speaker 1: used eye Memories and we got all those videos back
Speaker 1: and it was amazing to watch with my family and
Speaker 1: see what we were like in the early nineties. It
Speaker 1: felt like it was yesterday and a million years ago.
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: So you can just watch them on your phone.
Speaker 1: You can watch them on your phone. You can download
Speaker 1: them and put them onto your computer. So I was
Speaker 1: able to download all of them and put them into
Speaker 1: the cloud so that all of my family can see it.
Speaker 1: I've been texting like my uncles and my cousins different
Speaker 1: clips and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: That's wow, because I didn't receive any Oh you said
Speaker 2: you shared them with Wow. You said all your family though, right, Oh.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're let me you know what some of these things,
Speaker 1: you know, my phone be acting up.
Speaker 2: I would hope that's what it is. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 2: it is. Okay, okay, what's your one thing? My one
Speaker 2: thing has been on television this week. I have really
Speaker 2: jumped into BMF, which is a TV show about the
Speaker 2: Flinnery Brothers from Detroit. Now, I know we just talked
Speaker 2: about anxiety. Let me tell you what they were doing,
Speaker 2: which is illegally hustling. That would cause a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 2: But it's really interesting to see the origins of BMF.
Speaker 2: I know of BMF from a really different perspective, which
Speaker 2: is from hip hop, So fabulous and Young Jeezy. We're
Speaker 2: represented and promoted by BMF.
Speaker 1: When I what does a BMF stand for?
Speaker 2: Black Mafia Family?
Speaker 1: Okay, so say that out loud. Did something happen to us?
Speaker 2: Do we not know? That only happens if you say
Speaker 2: jabrin in the you have to say it three times.
Speaker 2: We're to be, you know, an issue. But yeah, So
Speaker 2: that's what I've been watching and I just caught up.
Speaker 2: I'm on episode six. It is so good.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to check that out.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's it for Lab thirty eight. We want to
Speaker 2: know your thoughts. Do you have any secrets to making anxiety.
Speaker 1: Work for you?
Speaker 2: Please tell us? Call us at two o two five
Speaker 2: six seven seven zero two eight and leave a message,
Speaker 2: or you can give us an idea for a lab
Speaker 2: we should do this semester we want to hear from you.
Speaker 2: That's two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.
Speaker 2: And don't forget, Semester four is going to be exclusive
Speaker 2: to Spotify for free starting December sixteenth, So if you
Speaker 2: already listen to us on Spotify, keep doing what you're doing,
Speaker 2: and don't forget to follow Dope Labs and tap the
Speaker 2: bill icon so you never missed when an episode drops. Now,
Speaker 2: after December sixteenth, you won't be able to hear new
Speaker 2: episodes of Dope Labs anywhere else, So if you don't
Speaker 2: listen to us on Spotify, be sure to follow us
Speaker 2: on over here, where you can listen to Dope Labs
Speaker 2: plus all of your other favorite shows for free.
Speaker 1: And don't forget there's so much more to dig into
Speaker 1: on our website. There'll be a cheap cheat for today's lab,
Speaker 1: additional links and resources in the show notes. Plus you
Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter, so check it out
Speaker 1: at Dope Labs podcast dot com. Special thanks today's guest expert,
Speaker 1: Doctor Wendseysuzu. Her book Good Anxiety, Harnessing the Power of
Speaker 1: the Most misunderstoody Motion is out now from Atria Books.
Speaker 2: You can find more about Doctor Suzuki at Wendy Suzuki
Speaker 2: dot com.
Speaker 1: Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Owned
Speaker 1: Media Group.
Speaker 2: Our producers are Jenny Ratleitmast and Lydia Smith of WaveRunner Studios.
Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by Rob Smerciak.
Speaker 2: Mixing by Hannes Brown.
Speaker 1: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex
Speaker 1: Sugier from Spotify.
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Gina Delvack, and creative producers are
Speaker 2: Baron Farmer and Candace Manriquez Wrinn.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos Yasmin of Fifi, Camu Elolia,
Speaker 1: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega
Speaker 1: Ownmedia Group are us T t Show Dia and Zakiah Wattley.