Speaker 1: This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come
Speaker 1: and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually
Speaker 1: it's about an hour and a half and I don't
Speaker 1: have an opener because these guys cost money. But what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway,
Speaker 1: come and see me live on the Pants on Fire
Speaker 1: Tour in your region. Tickets are on sale now and
Speaker 1: we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates,
Speaker 1: go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you
Speaker 1: on the road, My DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson.
Speaker 1: The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to
Speaker 1: interest in people about what brings them happiness. Hello everyone, now,
Speaker 1: my guest today was one of my favorite recurring guests
Speaker 1: on the old Late Night Show. She is a remarkably interesting,
Speaker 1: fascinating human being with an amazing story to tell, which
Speaker 1: if you hang around and you're about to hear she
Speaker 1: is the check Wonder Girl. Howlina Rishkova. That's how you
Speaker 1: say in check, or you could say it in America
Speaker 1: by saying Kawlina Potskova, Yes, she enjoy there you are right?
Speaker 1: May I say? We both don't look a day older
Speaker 1: than when we were carrying on on late night.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think we look about a decade older, but
Speaker 2: I think it suits us.
Speaker 1: How about that? Well, okay, I'll take it. I suppose
Speaker 1: I do. I don't think you do? You look incandescent?
Speaker 1: Are you happy? Yes?
Speaker 2: I'm I am very happy. Not gone, you know Czech
Speaker 2: tradition Eastern European have to touchwood. Yes, I'm I am
Speaker 2: actually incredibly happy, or at least you're talking to me
Speaker 2: at a moment where I am incredibly happy. How about you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, pretty good. Actually I'm in a reasonable mood
Speaker 1: and I'm reasonably happy. I feel like it's quite interesting
Speaker 1: the last time we spoke. Whenever we spoke before, it
Speaker 1: was always for ten minutes in front of a couple
Speaker 1: of hundred people, and I always thought, you know, it's
Speaker 1: such an odd thing because I felt like I knew
Speaker 1: you and I felt like we were friendly. But we really,
Speaker 1: honestly are conversations. We're just that. Yeah, it's maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit how did you do beforehand? And that was it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know after I did your show for the
Speaker 2: first time, all my friends sort of came away and
Speaker 2: they were all, like, my god, you guys had such chemistry.
Speaker 2: It's like you were old friends, and so, yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: That's one of those things you remember certain people. You
Speaker 1: were always one of my favorite guests. You still are
Speaker 1: to this day. So let me tell you this though.
Speaker 1: What you can't do in ten minutes is you really
Speaker 1: can't find out about someone. And what I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to you about today is because we always joked
Speaker 1: to you about you were coming from Eastern Europe and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But you correct me Ifro'm wrong, But
Speaker 1: weren't you born when the Soviets were still in control
Speaker 1: of Eastern Europe? Is that right?
Speaker 2: Actually, thanks you making me a little younger than I
Speaker 2: actually am. I just turned sixty last week. So I
Speaker 2: was born in sixty five and the Soviets came in
Speaker 2: in sixty eight, so I was I was three years
Speaker 2: old when they occupy the country. And this is what
Speaker 2: sort of set up my life and the life of
Speaker 2: my parents on a very interesting personal trajectory. Besides, you know,
Speaker 2: the whole country going to shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, do you remember the Soviets were you
Speaker 1: were you out there by you were out there quite young.
Speaker 2: No, So what happened was that my parents left in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight because they knew, you know, we were
Speaker 2: getting occupied. Everybody knew this. The tanks were rolling in,
Speaker 2: and few brave people decided to chance it and leave.
Speaker 2: My parents were two of those, two of those, because
Speaker 2: they were you know, they were like my mother was
Speaker 2: like twenty one, my dad was twenty four. I mean,
Speaker 2: they're very young. And they jumped on a motorcycle and
Speaker 2: just drove between the tanks and drove out to Austria
Speaker 2: to a refugee camp. And they left me behind, thinking
Speaker 2: that they would get me a couple of weeks later,
Speaker 2: you know that, you know, once they were established in
Speaker 2: the normal country, that they would just be able to
Speaker 2: get me out. And that did not work at all.
Speaker 2: And I was out with my grandmother, and of course,
Speaker 2: you know, three, I have no I had no idea,
Speaker 2: just figured, oh, my parents sort of suddenly disappeared. Nobody
Speaker 2: told me where they went, so I sort of assumed
Speaker 2: that they were dead, but in a kind of a
Speaker 2: childish way of like, oh, my parents went to heaven,
Speaker 2: and I couldn't, well, you know happened.
Speaker 1: So you you didn't think you were traumatized by it
Speaker 1: in anyway. I feel like I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: like this is a deep and profound childhood trauma right there.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a deep and profound childhood trauma, all right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: But it doesn't start plaguing you until you grow up
Speaker 2: and you try to form relationships, you know, Yes, that's
Speaker 2: when you kind of get the full impact of what
Speaker 2: actually happened and how you included together.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you about this, this amazing like an
Speaker 1: odd question, but have you ever had in your life
Speaker 1: a fear of flying?
Speaker 2: I did? I had. I had a huge fear of
Speaker 2: flying for about twenty years in between not being scared
Speaker 2: at all and then not being scared at all. Again,
Speaker 2: very what are you asking?
Speaker 1: Because there's a guy there's a fear of flying guy
Speaker 1: and old. I think he was an American airlines captain.
Speaker 1: His name is Tom Bann and he does he helps
Speaker 1: people who are frightened of flying. And I used to
Speaker 1: be fighting of flying too. Oh really and yeah, and
Speaker 1: he says that a lot of it is not about
Speaker 1: flying at all, but a lot of it is to
Speaker 1: do with when you were a kid an authority figure
Speaker 1: that you should trust and that you placed all your
Speaker 1: trust in lets you down badly, and later on it
Speaker 1: manifests itself as a fear of flying. I just thought, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this sounds like a classic. Is that really? How did
Speaker 1: you get over it.
Speaker 2: As a desire to control? Yeah, I am a cot
Speaker 2: and utter control freak. How about you?
Speaker 1: Pretty much the same? What I did was is I
Speaker 1: became a control freak so much so that I got
Speaker 1: my pilot's license, I learned to fly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes perfect sense to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that funny? A lot of people that like
Speaker 1: that's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now that's the way to go about it. You
Speaker 2: can then pilot your own plane. And I what I
Speaker 2: did was I got myself a Vestpa that I ride
Speaker 2: around New York and that makes me feel like I'm
Speaker 2: in control.
Speaker 1: You still write it around Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that
Speaker 1: is baller? Is it the classic Italian looking thing with
Speaker 1: a little bit in the front and river? Then yes,
Speaker 1: fucking great, Yes, that is great.
Speaker 2: I've had it for like twenty eight years or something.
Speaker 2: I used to drive my kids to school on it,
Speaker 2: and so they were like always like the hippest kids
Speaker 2: to you know, get off their moms by in their
Speaker 2: little leather jackets and you know, flick your hair.
Speaker 1: Very show cow baby.
Speaker 2: It's cool and it's in New York.
Speaker 1: Are you still in New York? Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: just moved back to New York.
Speaker 2: No, I did not know that way day. Do you
Speaker 2: catch me up on your life? What are you? What
Speaker 2: are you up to?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm not doing tons. I'm doing some things,
Speaker 1: but I've been doing live stuff because I you know,
Speaker 1: doing stand up because I kind of after Late Night
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know if I ever want
Speaker 1: to see the inside of a television studio or again.
Speaker 1: And I'm over that now and I'm doing it. But
Speaker 1: it was kind of it was so intense that period
Speaker 1: that like ten years, I'm doing the show every night,
Speaker 1: ten minute conversation, ten minutes. Some people you remember, like you,
Speaker 1: I remember, of course very well. But there are people
Speaker 1: who were on that, like I've met since who have said, oh,
Speaker 1: you should have been on the Late Night Show and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I was on it three times a
Speaker 1: bit and so I kind of like, I do stand
Speaker 1: up and I do bits and pieces and I went
Speaker 1: to live in Scotland for a while for like five years.
Speaker 1: I think, well, then we move. We moved back after that.
Speaker 1: But have you ever moved back to Europe? Have you
Speaker 1: ever spent time back there? You never gone back?
Speaker 2: I really love Europe, Like I feel when I go
Speaker 2: back there, there's a part of me that feels at
Speaker 2: home or maybe safe to some extent. But you know,
Speaker 2: I've lived in the United States now longer than I've
Speaker 2: lived anywhere else in fact. So see this apartment. This
Speaker 2: is a rented apartment that I'm very passionate. I love
Speaker 2: this apartment because it's the first place that I got
Speaker 2: to move in by myself since I was like eighteen.
Speaker 2: I chose all the wallpaper and made it look kind
Speaker 2: of European. But right across this wall right there, Yes,
Speaker 2: the very first apartment that I rented when I was
Speaker 2: seventeen years old and I moved to New York. So
Speaker 2: I live right next door to the seventeen year old me.
Speaker 1: Ah, how is the seventeen year old you do it?
Speaker 2: Well, well, she's dead.
Speaker 1: Well let me ask you this. I put it a
Speaker 1: different way, so you're left behind in check or what
Speaker 1: they called I guess what did they call it?
Speaker 2: Then it's a well, it was Czechoslovakia back then. Then
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do the Czech Republic. And now we're
Speaker 2: supposed to call it check. Yeah, which is what we
Speaker 2: checks have always called it CHECKI check Chickie.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know any any check person I've talked
Speaker 1: to about. I'm going to talk to a couple of
Speaker 1: the producer of the show, Tomas, who's check.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can know by his last name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called Zachopalzo.
Speaker 2: Bill means somebody who was buried.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I think it's it's undertaker or something, isn't it,
Speaker 1: which is perfect for him.
Speaker 2: Poor man.
Speaker 1: No, No, he's great, he's just he's a he's a cheerful,
Speaker 1: dark soul.
Speaker 2: But I think we all are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Czech people are quite like that, right, quite
Speaker 1: cheerful but quite well.
Speaker 2: Look, we've been occupied for our entire existence. So like
Speaker 2: there's a there's a you learned that life is best
Speaker 2: lived with incredibly low expectations, and that things can turn
Speaker 2: on the dime, and that you know things are happy
Speaker 2: today and tomorrow somebody will come in and wreck your life.
Speaker 1: So this is amazing. It's like talking to a very
Speaker 1: beautiful version of Tomas.
Speaker 2: We're all the same.
Speaker 1: Hello. This is Greig Ferguson and I want to let
Speaker 1: you know I have a brand new stand up comedy
Speaker 1: special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy,
Speaker 1: and I would be so happy if you checked it out.
Speaker 1: To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel
Speaker 1: at the Graig Ferguson Show and is this right there?
Speaker 1: Just click it and play it and it's free. I
Speaker 1: can't look. I'm not going to come around your house
Speaker 1: and show you how to do it. If you can't
Speaker 1: do it, then you can have it. But if you
Speaker 1: can figure it out, yours. So what happened then? Did
Speaker 1: you ever reunite with your parents? Oh?
Speaker 2: Well, it's quite quite a bit of a story. I
Speaker 2: guess you can always edit it out right.
Speaker 1: No, it's not at all, but.
Speaker 2: You're welcome to if you want to. So what happened
Speaker 2: was that my parents. My parents made it into Austria.
Speaker 2: They didn't get shot, so that was nice. I was
Speaker 2: left with my grandmother and then from the Austrian refugee
Speaker 2: camp they got sent to Sweden, which was a big
Speaker 2: you know, a place that was hospitable to refugees at
Speaker 2: that point, and then they were trying to get me
Speaker 2: out and they couldn't. The borders were closed and you know,
Speaker 2: that was over. So my parents, again being very young
Speaker 2: and very photogenic, decided to sort of raise awareness for
Speaker 2: their cause of like not being able to get their child.
Speaker 2: And so they started with doing a hung strike in
Speaker 2: front of the Stockholm Embassy, the Czech embassy in Stockholm,
Speaker 2: to tell you who, get people empathetic and sign you know,
Speaker 2: sign on a whatever lists of people protesting the Czech
Speaker 2: government not allowing their daughter to be released. And the
Speaker 2: Czech government did absolutely nothing, but the Swedes really liked us.
Speaker 2: They got kind of whipped into a frenzy of helping
Speaker 2: these two young, beautiful people to get their daughter out.
Speaker 2: So I became sort of a cause celeb of course, figures.
Speaker 2: It was like my early career. I was a famous
Speaker 2: political refugee and I became famous in Sweden as like
Speaker 2: little Paulina, poor little Paulina.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I didn't no idea, So how did did
Speaker 1: they get you out? The Swedes got you.
Speaker 2: Out there kind of eventually, but three years my parents
Speaker 2: were using all the press and all the me and
Speaker 2: they were on TV and eventually a Swedish magazine. Actually,
Speaker 2: I believe the checks sent them my parents a letter
Speaker 2: saying that because they hadn't claimed me for three years,
Speaker 2: I was going to be adopted to a suitable family.
Speaker 2: So that of course would mean that they would lose
Speaker 2: me forever. And they did sort of this desperate last
Speaker 2: attempt in which a Swedish newspaper funded getting two Swedish
Speaker 2: pilots and my mother to go and kidnap me on
Speaker 2: my way from school. They were going to kidnap me.
Speaker 2: They had a false passport for me. My mother had
Speaker 2: a false passport claiming she was one of the pilot's
Speaker 2: wife and that they were just coming to the Czech
Speaker 2: Republic to look at planes to purchase, and while they
Speaker 2: did that, they were going to grab me and pack
Speaker 2: me off into a small plane. Of course, nobody considered
Speaker 2: how I would feel about this, not having seen my
Speaker 2: mother in four years and didn't know who she was anymore.
Speaker 2: But they so, and the newspaper had, like, what do
Speaker 2: you call it? A you know, it was their story.
Speaker 2: It was, yeah, there's an exclusive story. And so my
Speaker 2: mom and those two pilots, my mom had a wig
Speaker 2: and glasses and the false passport, and they land in
Speaker 2: the Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia. They rent a car and
Speaker 2: they're driving on the way to my little town to
Speaker 2: get me on my way to school, and they get
Speaker 2: busted for speeding. Yeah uh, and so they get taken
Speaker 2: to a police station interrogated. Apparently somebody might have written
Speaker 2: to the authorities that my mother was going to try
Speaker 2: to kidnap me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so the whole thing unspooled and that they were
Speaker 2: all put in jail, the Swedish pilots and my mother.
Speaker 2: My mother was six months pregnant with my baby brother.
Speaker 2: And now this newspaper had gotten a way better story
Speaker 2: than they even bargained for.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know. Yeah, but what goes on?
Speaker 1: How long are they in jail? What happened?
Speaker 2: Well, my mother is in jail for about three months,
Speaker 2: and then because there was you know, the Sweden was
Speaker 2: you know, it was all our story. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: Anna Broskova got caught. She's in jail, she's pregnant, she's
Speaker 2: not gotten to see Paulina, Like you know, this is
Speaker 2: like a huge story. So she was given amnesty. About
Speaker 2: three months into this, she got given an amnesty and
Speaker 2: so she was allowed to come and stay at my
Speaker 2: grandmother's house with me and grandma under house arrest for
Speaker 2: the next three years. The Swedish pilots I believe, were
Speaker 2: in jail for like ten years.
Speaker 1: What yeah, baby brother, and your baby brother is born,
Speaker 1: your dad is still in Sweden.
Speaker 2: Dad is still in Sweden, and my dad is sort
Speaker 2: of carrying on, you know, doing all the interviews. He's
Speaker 2: meeting with all of Palmer, the Swedish Prime minister, to
Speaker 2: see if there's a way that all of Palmer can
Speaker 2: move anything to get us out, and there's like and
Speaker 2: this is going on for another three years of this
Speaker 2: sort of back and forth, Swedish newspaper men coming into
Speaker 2: the Czech Republic to take pictures of us that they
Speaker 2: can then publish in magazines in Sweden. And at the
Speaker 2: end of those three years, so in nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 2: I believe there the Swedish hockey team was supposed to
Speaker 2: play the checks in like the International Friendships Games or something,
Speaker 2: and they refuse to play the checks unless they released us,
Speaker 2: and all of Palmer refused to make a States visit
Speaker 2: unless they released us, and then they finally and then
Speaker 2: they pouted us out, say in nineteen seventy three day
Speaker 2: Tom's passport and said get out and don't ever come back.
Speaker 2: And then that was that's crazy.
Speaker 1: No, you see, this is something that doesn't come up
Speaker 1: in a ten minute conversation. So you're by this thing,
Speaker 1: what nine years old? Almost?
Speaker 2: Yes, so I was nine when we left the check repart.
Speaker 1: Right, and now you become a Sweedish citizen, I guess right.
Speaker 1: And families reunited.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for about a week or so. Because my dad
Speaker 2: had found some other woman while I'm alm was gone,
Speaker 2: so he promptly left. And then mom was sort of
Speaker 2: a single parent and she was having a bit of
Speaker 2: a nervous breakdown, and so it was me and my
Speaker 2: little brother kind of left to our you know, own devices.
Speaker 1: As they say, this is a movie polylievable.
Speaker 2: I know, but every time I tell somebody the story,
Speaker 2: they're kind of like, yeah, it's kind of too much.
Speaker 2: You know, did just give me half of that story?
Speaker 2: The full story is? It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1: And then you know what, I think maybe it's not
Speaker 1: a movie. I think it's like ten episodes on Netflix,
Speaker 1: that's what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it has to be a limited TV
Speaker 2: series thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is you ever, because then after that,
Speaker 1: if you're like you're now like nine, ten years old,
Speaker 1: you're in Sweden, and by the time you're what seventeen,
Speaker 1: you're eleven in New York.
Speaker 2: Well by the time I'm fifteen, I'm a model in
Speaker 2: Paris on my own.
Speaker 1: How does that happen?
Speaker 4: Is it?
Speaker 1: Because your famous little Paulina is now growing up? She's
Speaker 1: very beautiful and actually she's not grown up, she's only fifteen.
Speaker 1: Why is she going to Paris?
Speaker 2: Well, because models start very young. I think I think
Speaker 2: we know that.
Speaker 1: That seems very very young, doesn't you know?
Speaker 2: Well, yes, it's very very young. But I was I
Speaker 2: had a girlfriend who really was interested in fashion, and
Speaker 2: she wanted to be a fashion photographer. And mind you,
Speaker 2: we're like teens, you know, like little teens do the selfies,
Speaker 2: you know these days. So she sort of she would
Speaker 2: take pictures of me on her little instematic pocket camera,
Speaker 2: and then she sent those pictures into some scout in
Speaker 2: the city where we lived in lund in Sweden, to
Speaker 2: ask what she thought of her photography, like, oh, do
Speaker 2: you you know, how do I become a fashion photographer?
Speaker 2: And the lady got back to her saying yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: photographyish photography. Who's the girl? How old is she? And
Speaker 2: how tall is she?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 2: And she introduced me to John Cassiblanket when I was fourteen.
Speaker 2: He took a look. He said, would you like to
Speaker 2: go to Paris over the summer? And I was like, uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: And so I was sent to Paris over some Now
Speaker 2: it was supposed to be just a summer job in
Speaker 2: all fairness, Yeah, but you know I got to Paris
Speaker 2: that I was fifteen, I was really four. I started
Speaker 2: working kind of right away, and by the time the
Speaker 2: summer was over, I had traveled like I had gone
Speaker 2: to Morocco, I had gone to Japan on my own
Speaker 2: by myself. They just they would hand me a plane
Speaker 2: ticket and say go, and I would go. And going
Speaker 2: going back to school seemed boring.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I understand it, does it do? I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I'm not your father, as you well know, but it
Speaker 1: does worry me. Wait what Yeah, it worries me though
Speaker 1: the idea of that fifteen year old sixteen year old
Speaker 1: Paulina is two and the fashion world is not renowned
Speaker 1: for being full of scrupulous characters.
Speaker 2: Kind men who want what best, fatherly type.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how how was it? Did you how did
Speaker 1: you manage? Were you okay?
Speaker 2: Well with okay meaning you know, did I survive? And
Speaker 2: not get right like, clearly you survived? But yes, yes,
Speaker 2: clearly you survived and clearly you thrived. But was it
Speaker 2: a very difficult time? Was at a very unpleasant time? Well?
Speaker 2: You know what it was both, to be honest, it
Speaker 2: was being fifteen and completely unsupervised and making more money
Speaker 2: in three months and your parents making a year is
Speaker 2: not a terrible place to be at times. And then
Speaker 2: at times, you know, when you're by yourself in your
Speaker 2: little apartment and you are scared and you're young and
Speaker 2: you don't really know there's no real safety for you,
Speaker 2: than it's scary. So it was both. It was sort
Speaker 2: of a time of extremes. I think, you know, it's.
Speaker 1: An interesting thing as well, because if you are and
Speaker 1: you clearly are, I mean, I'm sure you're at peace
Speaker 1: with this now. But you're very beautiful. And so when
Speaker 1: people are very beautiful, I've noticed that something's other people
Speaker 1: will punish them in bed, they'll be quite cruel to them.
Speaker 1: They become a little strange. Particularly, I think you know,
Speaker 1: they always say things like beauty's only skin deep and
Speaker 1: it's not really that valuable, and what you have is
Speaker 1: just luck and kind of downplay it all the time,
Speaker 1: which I think is kind of I don't think that's necessary.
Speaker 2: Really, well, is it necessary?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I think it's It's just it's a human emotion when somebody,
Speaker 2: you know, how we all compare one and ourselves to
Speaker 2: other people. We can't help it. It's a biological function comparison. Right,
Speaker 2: where do I stand in society? And when you are
Speaker 2: seen as an attractive and young woman, by the way,
Speaker 2: you have to be yelp.
Speaker 1: The nice thing.
Speaker 2: About being older is that I don't get that anymore.
Speaker 2: Nobody gives a shit. It's like, you can be attractive
Speaker 2: because you know, guys are not going to go for
Speaker 2: me anymore because I'm too old.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if that's entirely realistic, but fair enough.
Speaker 1: I'll go with you. And the uh, thank you. So
Speaker 1: you're doing these modeling assignments and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: you are clearly again all this information from the world
Speaker 1: that you are young and you're beautiful, and that is
Speaker 1: a commodity, and so you what do you do? You
Speaker 1: take it to New York that's what you decide to do,
Speaker 1: or did the job take you there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's you know, it's there's a very small
Speaker 2: there's very little decision making when you're a fifteen year
Speaker 2: old child, you do you sort of the nice thing
Speaker 2: about it is that you're endlessly flexible, right, so right
Speaker 2: wherever they put you, you just kind of go with
Speaker 2: it and you go, oh, well, that's this is the
Speaker 2: way it's supposed to be. Have you ever seen Felini's eight.
Speaker 1: And a half a long time ago, like a long
Speaker 1: time ago.
Speaker 2: Well, I just I just rewatched it the other day,
Speaker 2: and it's a really kind of a cool movie and
Speaker 2: it's beautiful. Yeah, but it really is. He's kind of
Speaker 2: like the insane ravings of a middle aged man who
Speaker 2: finds himself, you know, doesn't know where where he's going
Speaker 2: next career wise, and all these women that he's disappointed,
Speaker 2: and you know, a man in menopause. And I just
Speaker 2: could watch the whole movie. I thought, Oh, like, I
Speaker 2: feel like I watched the film about my father.
Speaker 1: It's funny. Yeah, I know what you mean. Did you
Speaker 1: kind of reunite with your father? Did you manage to
Speaker 1: form a relationship with him at all? Is he still around?
Speaker 1: He's still around.
Speaker 2: I made an attempt a few times here and there
Speaker 2: to see if we could perhaps have some sort of relationship,
Speaker 2: and then I always sort of came away with he's
Speaker 2: not really worth it. So no, no, okay, it does
Speaker 2: set you up for a lifetime full of looking for
Speaker 2: the wrong man.
Speaker 1: Do you think you did that? You were looking for
Speaker 1: the wrong man for sure? Yeah, dear, that is upsetting.
Speaker 1: So you're in New York and but like, by this time,
Speaker 1: you know through all of these you know this is
Speaker 1: going on. You're not one of the supermodels, right, and
Speaker 1: that's what they were calling you girls like and you
Speaker 1: were the kind of well you're the first wave of
Speaker 1: the super mussy. Guess you kind of wear right Damn.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I can't toot my own horn
Speaker 2: because I'm Eastern European. But thank you for thank you
Speaker 2: for mentioning it yourself.
Speaker 1: Yes, so does what does that due to a person
Speaker 1: of obvious intelligence that the message you're getting is that
Speaker 1: you have this this weird power, which is is clearly marketable.
Speaker 1: You're very successful, you're making good money and your world famous,
Speaker 1: and all you have to do is be you.
Speaker 2: Well, actually, it's not so much.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not about it.
Speaker 2: In some ways, it's simpler. All you have to do
Speaker 2: is show up. But whether you're you or somebody else
Speaker 2: entirely different inside really doesn't matter. What it does is
Speaker 2: that for a woman, it sort of sets you up
Speaker 2: for feeling like the only thing of importance about you
Speaker 2: is the way you look, so any needs or wants
Speaker 2: or desires or thoughts that you have are absolutely unimportant,
Speaker 2: and it sort of reassures you that that is in
Speaker 2: fact the case. So I think a lot of models
Speaker 2: we have a hard time trying to find just find
Speaker 2: out who we are, you know, who we are outside
Speaker 2: this facade that everybody has sort of narrowed down to
Speaker 2: just being a shell. How did you find yourself? How
Speaker 2: did you find out where you were?
Speaker 1: Was there a process that you went through that was
Speaker 1: conscious or did it? Did it just happened or I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like I assume. I don't know why I
Speaker 1: assume this, but it seems to me like you seem
Speaker 1: to me like someone who reads, who is connected, who
Speaker 1: is interested in the arts, and then politically motivated as well.
Speaker 1: Would that be correct?
Speaker 2: That would be correct, Although it didn't seem to matter
Speaker 2: very much to literally anybody but perhaps myself.
Speaker 1: Well that's good though, that it matters to you.
Speaker 2: It's also infinitely frustrating.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure, because no one is
Speaker 1: going to take you seriously about anything you say at
Speaker 1: all at any point.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: That's so fucking mad. Yeah, fucking mad. I don't know
Speaker 1: how anyone could put up with that. Did you find
Speaker 1: yourself getting angry?
Speaker 2: I think there was a fair bit of anger, but
Speaker 2: I also I'm also scared of anger, so I I
Speaker 2: think I would reduce that anger to contempt, a sort
Speaker 2: of a slow, simmering contempt for all, for everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's actually quite cool. I think I as
Speaker 1: I sort of seething contempt for everyone. I have to say,
Speaker 1: I find that quite attractive that I could have.
Speaker 2: So that's something about your own childhood trauma.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no kidding. But you did find I mean
Speaker 1: you you you got married and you had a family
Speaker 1: in New York City. That all happened to you.
Speaker 2: I did. I met my husband when I was nineteen
Speaker 2: and he was forty one, and he lied about it
Speaker 2: and said he was thirty seven.
Speaker 1: Like that was a big difference. When did you find
Speaker 1: out the truth presumably before the first.
Speaker 2: Child, before we got married. Good, so like five years later,
Speaker 2: oh wow, where he had to come clean, you know,
Speaker 2: because I was going to see the bur certificateself, like
Speaker 2: he couldn't really pretend anymore. And I kept thinking, you know,
Speaker 2: for those five years, I thought things just weren't working
Speaker 2: out timeline wise, you know, like how old his oldest
Speaker 2: child was versus how old he said he was. And
Speaker 2: I kept trying to go back already, go so how
Speaker 2: old is Christopher again? And when did you say you
Speaker 2: have him? And he would sort of skirt by those conversations.
Speaker 2: But uh, yeah, I was very much in love with
Speaker 2: my husban because I feel like I had found well,
Speaker 2: you know how they say that's becoming a cliche now,
Speaker 2: but you marry your unfinished business?
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, it's absolutely true. I found a man
Speaker 2: who with some serious narcissistic tendencies, which both of my
Speaker 2: parents have, and so you know, I married. I married
Speaker 2: my parents and tried to convert them into actually liking me,
Speaker 2: and it worked. It worked for a really long time.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Obviously, what I'm doing is I'm going back
Speaker 1: to my own romantic history going, Oh my god, I
Speaker 1: hate this.
Speaker 2: How many times have you been married?
Speaker 1: Now? I'm on number three?
Speaker 2: Well, lucky three, but.
Speaker 1: We've been married for a while. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: you married again, didn't you? No, no, you didn't marry,
Speaker 1: but you're you're in a relationship now.
Speaker 2: I'm in a relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you guys gonna get married.
Speaker 2: Well after my husband died and all the ship that happened.
Speaker 1: I heard about. Some of that I wasn't gonna make
Speaker 1: but yeah, welcome.
Speaker 2: To you because everybody else knows it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just didn't want to make you roll around
Speaker 1: in it, you know what I mean. Everybody gets ship
Speaker 1: happened in their life. I didn't want to, like, it's
Speaker 1: none of my business. I how are you with that
Speaker 1: kind of thing? Because I get very uncomfortable in my
Speaker 1: lane and work. I'm going to talk to you, know,
Speaker 1: I talked to you, and you've gone through some public,
Speaker 1: you know, difficulties. I've talked to other people who have
Speaker 1: gone through ablem through who use like doesn't have a difficulty,
Speaker 1: and I'm still I feel a bit seedy. When you
Speaker 1: talk to people about the difficulties of their life, it
Speaker 1: doesn't I'd rather keep it more kind of superficial, I suppose. Well,
Speaker 1: not because just because I don't know, I just don't
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not a journalist, do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not trying to You don't seem bothered
Speaker 1: by discussing that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: No, you know, what I've noticed is that I'm really curious.
Speaker 2: I'm really genuinely curious. And by sort of airing out
Speaker 2: my life very forthrightly and openly on Instagram, which is
Speaker 2: I did by accident, I was just so fucking desperate.
Speaker 2: I didn't really know what else to do. It brought
Speaker 2: all these connections to me other people that maybe had
Speaker 2: similar experiences, and it sort of opens up all these
Speaker 2: channels of connection, which I really appreciate. And so it's
Speaker 2: a different lifestyle. It's a different life. It's that that
Speaker 2: thing that you like so much, that the contempt that, yeah,
Speaker 2: that I've let go of, Yeah, and healthy. I am
Speaker 2: much happier for it. Yes, I mean I was very
Speaker 2: good at it. I had lots and lots of years
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, you're an Eastern European supermodel. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a good look to be sort of haughty.
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of I hate everyone.
Speaker 2: Just leave me alone?
Speaker 1: You are?
Speaker 2: You know I am far superior to you. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: that was never me.
Speaker 1: That was never I don't get that from you at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm essentially a very kind of goofy nerdy. I know.
Speaker 2: It's like all pretty women say they are nerdy, but
Speaker 2: I truly am. I read a lot like I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not fabulous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know people that read a look and
Speaker 1: be fabulous. You're pretty fabolus. I think you're pretty fabulous.
Speaker 1: What do you read? What are you drawing to? Do
Speaker 1: you read historical fiction? Do you read hardcore physics manuals?
Speaker 1: What are you growing to?
Speaker 2: Okay, so maybe a little lighter on the hardcore physics
Speaker 2: manuals okay, uh huh. But otherwise I read pretty much everything.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of indiscriminate in food and reading, but no
Speaker 2: longer in my men.
Speaker 1: No. No, I think that's that's a very wise choice
Speaker 1: about What about writing? Because you wrote a very interesting
Speaker 1: article was the New York Times? You wrote that America
Speaker 1: you made me a famous?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Times?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, some pretty sway. Are you writing more? Are
Speaker 1: you writing books? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So I think when I I think when I was
Speaker 2: on your show, I had I think I had published
Speaker 2: my novel. You had published a novel. Because I read
Speaker 2: your novel, which was very good. I was going to
Speaker 2: ask you, are you are you writing more?
Speaker 1: You know what? I've been writing a follow up novel
Speaker 1: to that novel for the past fifteen years. I think
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard, Well, you have to write. Did
Speaker 1: you write another novel? Have you read another novel?
Speaker 2: Not a novel? I wrote a book of personal essays
Speaker 2: that was that came out two years ago, and that
Speaker 2: was actually incredibly rewarding it. I wrote it in three months. Wow,
Speaker 2: I know, a fellow writer can Yeah, I am, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's amazing.
Speaker 1: What did you just binge it? Did you just like
Speaker 1: sixteen hours a day of that kind of thing? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, every day, sixteen hours. I wanted to see if
Speaker 2: I could do it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the challenge of it, and I could do it,
Speaker 4: so I'll never do it again. But that was it
Speaker 4: was kind of crazy, but I did do it, and
Speaker 4: it was you know it was, but it was in
Speaker 4: the time. It was after my husband's death and all
Speaker 4: of the shit that happened and COVID and losing my
Speaker 4: house and all of this stuff, and so all the
Speaker 4: things I wanted to write about were like right there.
Speaker 4: You know, they were all occupying my brain for the
Speaker 4: last two years anyway, so it was just kind of like.
Speaker 2: Slash the vein, bleed all over the paper.
Speaker 1: And I totally understand it's a great way to find
Speaker 1: some kind of relief if you're in distress, psychic distress,
Speaker 1: to write. I think somehow. I think it's a little
Speaker 1: bit to do what we talked about right at the beginning.
Speaker 1: It's about control that if you write it down, you're
Speaker 1: in charge of it, you know. I mean when I
Speaker 1: wrote that novel, I was going through a divorce. It's
Speaker 1: very difficult, and you know, I had no control over it,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know where it was going next.
Speaker 1: But if I could go to the book and I
Speaker 1: write a book, I knew where everyone was going to
Speaker 1: go because I put them there, and it kind of helps.
Speaker 1: I think you write more.
Speaker 2: Oh oh oh, absolutely. I mean I kind of feel
Speaker 2: like writing is what I really do now, even on
Speaker 2: my Instagram thread. What I really use it as is
Speaker 2: like an outlet for my writing for you know, things
Speaker 2: I think of that I want to put down I
Speaker 2: sort of to test the fact that it has to
Speaker 2: be followed with a picture and now more recently videos
Speaker 2: that is I mean, it's it's all completely narcissistic anyway,
Speaker 2: but like it's really pushing the envelope and it's like,
Speaker 2: but that's I appreciate the fact that I get to
Speaker 2: have a voice and I get to use it in
Speaker 2: the way that I want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you. What about the like
Speaker 1: social media, because when I was on Instagram I'm not
Speaker 1: on anymore. I used to follow you on an Instagram
Speaker 1: time would see your posts and stuff like that with
Speaker 1: your you know, anger and stuff, and it was, you know,
Speaker 1: it was great, but I didn't I've come off I
Speaker 1: have like people who do it, no, because I kind
Speaker 1: of interact with the amount of I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just don't like it. It feels like unfiltered negativity, pooring
Speaker 1: at me. I don't like it.
Speaker 2: Well, it can be that, and then it also be
Speaker 2: like sort of unquestionable positivity, which.
Speaker 1: You also true, that's true, And I also don't know
Speaker 1: if I like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I know, I don't like it. I like
Speaker 2: whenever somebody says, you know, actually, my boyfriend was saying
Speaker 2: that the other day. It's like, Oh, I'm so proud
Speaker 2: of you, and I was like, and then he sort
Speaker 2: of stopped and said, you don't like when I say that,
Speaker 2: do you. I was like, no, No, that that's a
Speaker 2: very blanket statement to me. That doesn't mean anything. It's
Speaker 2: just it's more about you than it is about me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that sort of unfiltered adoration that you can get
Speaker 2: off of social as well as unfiltered hate. They're both
Speaker 2: kind of in the same basket of they need to
Speaker 2: be put aside. They're not they don't matter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm complicated. It's a complicated emotion and I'm not
Speaker 1: quite sure because you want to be nice to people
Speaker 1: who like you, and you don't want to be nice
Speaker 1: to people to dislike you. And the truth is, I
Speaker 1: don't think it really mars that much, you know. It's
Speaker 1: one of those things. In fact, it was Tomas who
Speaker 1: said it because I was getting upset about something on Twitter.
Speaker 1: This is how long ago it was. It was Twitter
Speaker 1: years ago, and he said to me, with his Eastern
Speaker 1: European accent, if you don't look, it's not there. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like, isn't it. It's not there, it's not
Speaker 1: it's not a thing. If you don't pay any attention
Speaker 1: to it, it disappears. Yeah. Well, very few things in life
Speaker 1: are true like that. You know. It's like if I
Speaker 1: look away, it no longer exists. But I think social
Speaker 1: media has that. You know. It's like if I don't
Speaker 1: look at it, it's not there.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, which is true, but then you're not quite
Speaker 2: and I don't and I don't know that this matters.
Speaker 2: But that's what social media does, uh, is that it
Speaker 2: kind of plugs you into not if you only follow
Speaker 2: people that like you or live in your bubble, but
Speaker 2: when you separate it and look wider, it does sort
Speaker 2: of queue you into sort of the national malaise or
Speaker 2: the feelings of like where people are at. I find
Speaker 2: that very interesting sort of it's just like an anthropology experiment,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it. It's like you're a little market
Speaker 1: research company. I understand, but it's uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think you've you've done better evolving out of the
Speaker 1: control freak area than I have.
Speaker 2: I Like, I don't know, it's still need into control.
Speaker 1: I'm aware of it, and I I don't need to
Speaker 1: control it. But I think Honestly, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you can relate to this at all, but I think
Speaker 1: I'm actually quite shy, quite reticent. I don't really like,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel it's like, not so much shy.
Speaker 1: That's not right. I think it's unseemly to talk yourself up,
Speaker 1: and I feel like when I see other people doing
Speaker 1: it as well, I find it kind of I don't
Speaker 1: really want to see you saying how great you are.
Speaker 1: It feels kind of like dumb. And that's why when
Speaker 1: you said you had content for everything, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's good.
Speaker 2: I'm not the only one.
Speaker 1: No, I don't have content for everything. I really don't.
Speaker 1: I think I'm quite a joyful person, but I get on.
Speaker 1: I'm a Scottish Protestant. I'm uncomfortable nearly all the time.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, I know that so well. Like
Speaker 2: but being a I mean, I guess at the East
Speaker 2: and Catholic. Yes, being uncomfortable nearly all the time is
Speaker 2: sort of what we've been programmed to.
Speaker 1: Be, right kind of. There is a there is a
Speaker 1: moral kind of grace to feeling bad. That it's a plus.
Speaker 2: Yes, you're a good person if you feel bad about it.
Speaker 1: If you feel bad. Yeah, it's kind of weird, right,
Speaker 1: It's a very weird thing. Look, we're out of time
Speaker 1: for this thing. Are you let me ask you this though,
Speaker 1: Have you done a part? Are you doing a podcast yet?
Speaker 1: Because you know that's next you have to do a podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, everybody and their mother is doing a podcast.
Speaker 1: No offense to you tell me about it. I've got
Speaker 1: ten left on that no twelve left of this one,
Speaker 1: and then I have contractually obliged to do no more.
Speaker 1: And let me tell you I'll be doing no more. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, So since you were asking me about podcasts,
Speaker 2: do you enjoy doing them?
Speaker 1: You know I do. But the way that we are
Speaker 1: talking now is I would rather have this see I
Speaker 1: let me backtrack it a little bit and answer it,
Speaker 1: and I kind of round about way. I feel like
Speaker 1: when I do a podcast like this, when I talk
Speaker 1: to someone like you like this on a zoom call
Speaker 1: or whatever we're calling it now, I'm as good as
Speaker 1: anyone else. But I feel like if you and I
Speaker 1: are sitting in the same room and we're talking to
Speaker 1: each other, I'm better than most and I feel like
Speaker 1: I can do this thing better. Not over the zoom
Speaker 1: so if I continue to do it, I want to
Speaker 1: do it so that we can all be in we
Speaker 1: can be in the same room, because there's something about
Speaker 1: the nature of human interaction, which it's okay. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking fine, and I'm not holding anything back, and
Speaker 1: I don't get a sense you are either, But somehow
Speaker 1: there is a it's just deffinite to be in the room.
Speaker 1: It creates a different thing.
Speaker 2: I agree. I mean, I think that this is where technology,
Speaker 2: as it joins us together, keeps us apart.
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, yeah, I think that's exactly so.
Speaker 2: So you're not going to do a podcast, then I'm
Speaker 2: actually also more interested in talking to real people rather
Speaker 2: than than zooming with people. And I've never liked phone calls.
Speaker 2: I still really Oh no, I hate them. Is it
Speaker 2: such a waste of time?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, just say what you have to say
Speaker 1: and get off the phone. That's that's please.
Speaker 2: Because I can't see how you look on the phone.
Speaker 2: I can't see your expressions. I can't see the twinkle
Speaker 2: or the disdain in your eye that I need to
Speaker 2: see for conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's exactly I feel about it. I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I love talking to people. I love, They
Speaker 1: say an island the crack. I love the crack, you know.
Speaker 1: I love joking and laughing and making fun of each
Speaker 1: other and flirting and being silly at all of these.
Speaker 1: I love all of that. But somehow, in this environment
Speaker 1: it's nearly there. But I think I just prefer it
Speaker 1: when it's, you know, the live show, right down to
Speaker 1: the sense of even, by the way, doing stand up comedy.
Speaker 1: I don't mind doing it on TV, and I don't
Speaker 1: mind recording a stand up special. But the truth is,
Speaker 1: the best shows are always in the theater or the club,
Speaker 1: when nobody's got a camera. Those are the best shows.
Speaker 2: And still, I mean, even if you're recording it on
Speaker 2: a camera or whatever, you still are performing it, not
Speaker 2: to the camera, but to an audience.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, But the camera doesn't get everything. It just doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't get at all. It doesn't get everything. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we may be the last of
Speaker 1: a dying breed where you know, the the you know
Speaker 1: that what we're talking about will make no sense to
Speaker 1: anyone under the age of fifty. I don't.
Speaker 2: I know, it's already starting to be a bit like that.
Speaker 2: What's your how old is your youngest child fourteen. Okay,
Speaker 2: so so your fourteen year old will look at you this,
Speaker 2: I'm sure my the way my children looked at me
Speaker 2: and said, mom, were you alive before computers?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes we were.
Speaker 3: Are you?
Speaker 2: Are you a boomer or a gen xer?
Speaker 1: I think I'm actually a boomer. I'm nineteen sixty two,
Speaker 1: so I'm a boomer. Yeah, So fucking get off my lawn,
Speaker 1: you ass all. Oh okay, you did it, and you're
Speaker 1: a dead exer right.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think gen extra Yes, yes, we're the ones
Speaker 3: that are truly sort of in the we stravel both sides,
Speaker 3: I think, more so than anybody else.
Speaker 1: Sorry, Whereas whereas me I all I do is remember
Speaker 1: the war and and when Lord Morris didn't have engines.
Speaker 2: Think the Andrews sisters, the boy of company B.
Speaker 1: All right, get out of here. It's lovely to talk
Speaker 1: to you. I'll talk to you in person soon, please,
Speaker 1: I think that would be really fun. That would be fun.
Speaker 1: That would be fun. Right, It's lovely to see it.
Speaker 2: Was really nice to see you too on this greeny screen.
Speaker 1: I know it'll look better in computer land.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surely it will but not me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you. You will get out of here. Goodbye.
Speaker 1: That's the anniversial.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, fine
Speaker 3: Apat Popo paper to per