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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that,

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Speaker 2: let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints.

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Speaker 4: Happy Wednesday, Crystal, we apparently dressed for like a baptism.

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Speaker 1: Tends totally accidental, but we're we're just already like mind

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Speaker 1: melding on the same waveleg.

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Speaker 4: Here we're in sync, although we'll probably disagree like nine

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Speaker 4: times out of ten tonight.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that'ssibly See it's Wednesday.

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Speaker 4: Crystal feels a little out of sorts in the Counterpoints too,

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Speaker 4: doesn't know what to do with herself.

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Speaker 5: I am a little confused.

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Speaker 1: It feels like Sager sort of feels like I'm doing

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Speaker 1: like dream World Breaking Points. Like the set is like

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Speaker 1: a little bit of it's like not quite the right name.

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Speaker 1: The host is a little bit different. But no, I

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Speaker 1: had my kids kindergarten graduation yesterday, so Ryan filled in

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Speaker 1: for me yesterday.

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Speaker 5: I'm here today, so it all works. I'm happy to

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Speaker 5: be here.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a big day.

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Speaker 5: Lots going on.

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Speaker 1: We have Ron DeSantis making it official tonight. We've got

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Speaker 1: all kinds of early previews of what the campaign is

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Speaker 1: looking like, the pitch to voters, the pitch to donors,

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Speaker 1: all that good stuff. We also have debt ceiling I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I call them updates, maybe like non.

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Speaker 3: Updates, updates about the lack of updates.

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Speaker 5: That's pretty much where we're at.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We also have some new numbers about how much the

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Speaker 1: American people are already not feeling great about the economy,

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Speaker 1: and of course the whole dead ceiling showdown makes that

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Speaker 1: even more precarious. We've got the first state to outrite

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Speaker 1: ban downloads of TikTok, and TikTok is suing to try

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Speaker 1: to push back on That's very interesting debate there.

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Speaker 5: And Fox News under fire.

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Speaker 1: This is this one I wanted to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about because I don't have a sense of whether this

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Speaker 1: is like real fallout for or whether this is like

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Speaker 1: a blip on the radar.

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Speaker 5: But reporter Mary Margaret Olahan.

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Speaker 1: Revealed their sort of like behind the scenes woke policies

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Speaker 1: with regard to gender identity in particular, and there's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a backlash.

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Speaker 5: So we will go through all of that.

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Speaker 3: Lots to talk about.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's start with the big news of the day,

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Speaker 4: which is that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is going to

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Speaker 4: announce that he's running for president tonight at six pm

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Speaker 4: on Twitter in a conversation with Elon Musk, and I

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Speaker 4: believe David Sachs as well. He's going to be moderating

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Speaker 4: the conversation. Pretty fascinating to DeSantis is going to follow

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Speaker 4: that up with an interview on Fox News with Trey Goudi.

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Speaker 4: They're going to release a launch video, and he's going

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Speaker 4: to start visiting those states early voting states Iowa, South Carolina,

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Speaker 4: New Hampshire over Memorial Day weekend. So it's a really

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Speaker 4: big day obviously in the Republican primary field.

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Speaker 3: Crystal.

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Speaker 4: The Twitter move is fascinating. Yeah, just nobody saw that

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Speaker 4: part coming. It had been rumored that DeSantis was going

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Speaker 4: to launch on the twenty fourth on Wednesday, and then

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Speaker 4: it comes out of left field yesterday. He's going to

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Speaker 4: be announcing in a conversation with Elon Musk moderated by

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Speaker 4: David Secks on Twitter. I think we can put the

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Speaker 4: first element up on the screen here. This is this

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Speaker 4: is a video. This is the launch video, part of

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Speaker 4: a launch video that I think this was from yesterday.

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Speaker 5: Right, yeah, this was from yesterday.

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Speaker 1: This is shared by his wife as like a little

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Speaker 1: bit of like a please teaser and getting people to

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Speaker 1: text in, like, you know, to sign up for their list.

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Speaker 5: So let's take a look at what that is.

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Speaker 4: They call it faith because in the face of darkness,

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Speaker 4: you can see that brighter future of faith that our

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Speaker 4: best days lay ahead of us.

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Speaker 6: But is it worth the fight?

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Speaker 2: Do I have the courage?

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Speaker 3: Is it worth the sacrifice?

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Speaker 4: America has been worth it every single time.

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Speaker 5: So that's what we got so far.

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Speaker 1: Go and put the next piece up because this has

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Speaker 1: some of the details about the Twitter thing. And then

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Speaker 1: I want to get your thoughts and I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what I think. So they say DeSantis will watch his

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Speaker 1: presential bid with Elon Musk. They're doing that like audio

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Speaker 1: chat thing feature that Twitter has, which I've actually never

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Speaker 1: really used but is popular among a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: He is going to be in that conversation with Musk,

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Speaker 1: moderated by David Sax, who has been very supportive of

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Speaker 1: him in the past. He's one of the hosts of

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Speaker 1: the All In Podcast. I mean, okay, so there's a

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Speaker 1: couple layers here. First of all, you know, part of

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Speaker 1: the reason that the right was excited about Elon taking

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Speaker 1: over Twitter was the idea like, oh, we're going to

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Speaker 1: make it a neutral platform, neutral free speech platform. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the free speech part is long out the window. The

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Speaker 1: neutral part has also been out the window, but just

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Speaker 1: makes it really clear here. And I was just thinking about, like,

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Speaker 1: if the shoe were on the other foot, if it

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Speaker 1: was like Jack Dorsey launching Joe Biden's campaign on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: the right would be freaking out about how unfair this is.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, to me, it's just a revelation that

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Speaker 1: whatever Elon said about his principles free speech, that that

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Speaker 1: was the core of what he was all about on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: It increasingly looks like he's just using it as like

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Speaker 1: a multi bill million dollar platform to advance his own

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Speaker 1: political project and a Jedda Well, see this is.

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Speaker 4: Really interesting because he was retweeting Tim Scott's announcement stuff

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Speaker 4: this week too, And I wonder if he partially sees

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Speaker 4: us as a business opportunity.

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Speaker 3: Now, whether that's better or worse is an entirely fair question.

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Speaker 4: But is he saying I can use the Republican primary

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Speaker 4: to create intrigue and drive people to Twitter by using

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Speaker 4: it as a platform where.

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Speaker 3: Some of these debates happen.

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Speaker 4: So whether he becomes fully on board with the DeSantis team,

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Speaker 4: that I think would be that that would be genuinely like, yes,

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Speaker 4: you're using this platform in a way that's like.

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Speaker 3: Just your own butt.

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Speaker 1: But already when you're the one launching the campaign, whether

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Speaker 1: he outright endorses him or not, yeah, of course that's

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Speaker 1: going to raise a lot of questions about like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: how are you using this influential platform among elites at

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Speaker 1: least in order to help the candidates that you like?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's you know, like, that is a

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Speaker 1: very reasonable question. And we don't have the insights into

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Speaker 1: Twitter or it's not the transparent place that he argued

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Speaker 1: it would be. We also just had the specter of

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Speaker 1: him basically, you know, intervening on behalf of Erdawan to

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Speaker 1: help him get reelected in Turkey, So that that is

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Speaker 1: still ongoing. They went to a runoff, So there's.

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Speaker 5: That piece of it.

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Speaker 1: The other piece of it, Emily, though, is I just

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Speaker 1: wonder what you think is a political move of DeSantis

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Speaker 1: launching on Twitter because Biden won the Democratic primary and

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Speaker 1: ultimately the general election with a very famous mantra, which

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Speaker 1: is that Twitter is not real life. One of the

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Speaker 1: knocks on DeSantis is that he has trouble like relating

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Speaker 1: to people and just sort of like interpersonal reaction interactions.

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Speaker 1: The other knock on DeSantis is that he's way too online, and.

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Speaker 5: This is a very it is a very.

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Speaker 1: Way too online, very insular move, in my opinion, for

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Speaker 1: him to start his campaign this way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I would think it was really like it actually

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Speaker 4: kind of reminds me of something we see on the

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Speaker 4: left a lot, which is just super super online behavior

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Speaker 4: that drives candidates to make questionable decisions.

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Speaker 3: Right because you're trying to.

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Speaker 4: Playcate a very particular slice of the public that's actually

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Speaker 4: fairly out of step and like culturally different than the

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Speaker 4: broader public.

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Speaker 3: So I don't disagree with that at all.

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Speaker 4: I actually think it's interesting your point about free speech

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Speaker 4: and neutrality and the conservative ambition for Twitter as being

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Speaker 4: a neutral place is fascinating because free speech used to

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Speaker 4: be our standard of what neutrality is. And now conservative

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Speaker 4: see one institution, all the other institutions, YouTube, whatever, aligned

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Speaker 4: against them, and so one institution comes along and flirts

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Speaker 4: and says, I can do even better than just free speech.

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Speaker 4: I can you know, create a space for conservative speech

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Speaker 4: and promote conservative speech in the so called like business,

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Speaker 4: Silicon Valley mainstream.

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Speaker 3: And everyone's like, hell yeah.

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Speaker 4: And it's totally different than what you said, Like it's

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Speaker 4: what you said is exactly right. It's totally different than

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Speaker 4: just a neutral free speech platform, right, and people want that,

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Speaker 4: Conservatives want that, and I think that is to an

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Speaker 4: extent telling, but it also speaks to that like total

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Speaker 4: death inspiration for just something one place that is going

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Speaker 4: to be supportive and is going to let conservatives say

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Speaker 4: what they want, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: That is totally different than free speech.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, I mean, and there were always like,

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Speaker 1: obviously this was clear if you were looking for the science.

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Speaker 5: From the beginning.

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Speaker 1: I always talked about Mike Lindell launched his quote unquote

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Speaker 1: free speech platform, and it was like, but no, taking

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Speaker 1: the lord's name in vain, no cursing, but like it

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Speaker 1: had a very specific set of rules for what he

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Speaker 1: was defining us free speech, and so this has always

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Speaker 1: been about art who's going to have control over the censorship,

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Speaker 1: not really over free speech, because again, any idea that

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Speaker 1: this is really truly a free speech platform, I think

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Speaker 1: is out the window. Let's talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: though about DeSantis and what his pitch is. Put the

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Speaker 1: next piece up on the screen here, because I think

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Speaker 1: this is kind of fascinating reporting from CNN, and we've

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Speaker 1: seen a little bit of this New York Times reporting

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Speaker 1: as well. This is to be clear what DeSantis is

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Speaker 1: putting out to these outlets, and the headline is how

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Speaker 1: Desanta's plans to jolt the GOP presdential primary and sees

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Speaker 1: back the narrative. A lot of this Emily is appears

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Speaker 1: to be his pitch that he is more electable. And

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Speaker 1: also there was an interesting addition in this reporting that

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Speaker 1: one of the things he's leaning into is the fact

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Speaker 1: that if Trump were to get elected, he's instantly alamed

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Speaker 1: duck because he can only serve four more years since

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Speaker 1: he's already served one term as president.

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Speaker 5: So his pitch to the base and.

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Speaker 1: Specifically to donors, is if you elect Trump, if he's

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Speaker 1: able to get in there, Number one, I think he's

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Speaker 1: less electable. So if he gets in there, though he's

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Speaker 1: instantly alamed duck, you have to go back to having

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Speaker 1: none of the advantages of incumbency and start from scratch

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Speaker 1: the next time around. Whereas if I get elected, then

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Speaker 1: you're much more likely to have eight years of a

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Speaker 1: conservative in the presidency. So that's part of what he

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Speaker 1: is leaning into in terms of the case he's making.

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Speaker 3: That's a really good point.

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Speaker 4: And again this gets into the question you asked about

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Speaker 4: what kind of campaign Rnda Santis is going to run.

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Speaker 3: I actually think Trump.

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Speaker 4: Was very line and that's part of the problem in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty is that, like he gets so in the

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Speaker 4: Twitter bubble, so in the social media bubble. One thing

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Speaker 4: that's interesting is there is a Harris poll this week.

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Speaker 4: It was conducted in mid May. It found that Elon

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Speaker 4: Musk has like relatively high favorability, higher than Trump, higher

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Speaker 4: than Biden.

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Speaker 3: He's at forty seven percent.

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Speaker 4: Ron De Santis is in third place at forty five

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Speaker 4: percent in that pole, and then it's Bernie Sanders with

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Speaker 4: forty two percent. So I think there is such like

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk is probably more than just a super online figure.

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Speaker 3: In the rest of the country.

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Speaker 4: There are people who genuinely really admire him for reasons

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Speaker 4: we may disagree with encounter, but he is a fairly

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Speaker 4: popular figure nationwide. Obviously just a plurality, not a majority

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Speaker 4: in the favorability race there. But it's going to be

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Speaker 4: really tough, I think for Ron De Santis and Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump both to be in this race and to have

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Speaker 4: to resist the temptation of just running for a segment

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Speaker 4: of conservative Twitter or truth social or whatever it is,

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Speaker 4: because now the entire political class lives and breathes online

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Speaker 4: and it just threw us mosis like soaks into everybody's

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Speaker 4: perception of voters, and that is just so so dangerous,

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Speaker 4: and so it's definitely a challenge for Ron de Santis

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Speaker 4: moving forward.

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Speaker 3: He's obviously, like.

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Speaker 4: A lot of his legislation in Florida has made a

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Speaker 4: lot of conservative Twitter very happy.

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Speaker 3: Right, He's pretty popular in his own state.

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Speaker 4: But whether or not that translates on a national level

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Speaker 4: a very different question.

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Speaker 1: What do you think of his electability pitch? Because I

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Speaker 1: see two issues with it. Number One, it's not clear

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Speaker 1: to me. I think donors definitely care about it, no

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Speaker 1: doubt about it, and he's gonna have plenty of money

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Speaker 1: behind him.

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Speaker 5: That's not going to be an issue.

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Speaker 1: But it's not clear to be the Republican base that

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Speaker 1: this is anywhere close to their number one priority. The

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Speaker 1: other issue for him, I think with the electability pitch

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Speaker 1: is in that same Harvard Harris poll that you were mentioning,

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Speaker 1: Republican voters are very divided on which one they think

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Speaker 1: between DeSantis and Trump is more likely to defeat Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: So it's one thing if it's really clear to people like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is the guy.

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Speaker 5: If you want to win, this is the guy.

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Speaker 1: And then you go to that secondary question of okay,

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Speaker 1: but is that the top priority for the Republican base,

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Speaker 1: But they don't see it the way that he sees it.

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Speaker 4: Right, No, that's a really good point. And here's another

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Speaker 4: we can put a three up. This is another part

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Speaker 4: of his pitch. It's actually kind of echoes of Trump here.

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Speaker 4: Desanta's envisions shaping seven to conservative majority on Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: That's a Washington Post headline, and so remember how crucial

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump's Supreme Court. His Supreme Court promises were in

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Speaker 4: the twenty sixteen primary and then in the general when

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Speaker 4: you had all of these like never Trump conservatives saying

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Speaker 4: I'm not voting for this guy. But then he rolls

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Speaker 4: out the Leonard Leo list of judges that he would

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Speaker 4: put on the Supreme Court, and that solidifies the support

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Speaker 4: of the conservative movement.

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Speaker 3: Here you have DeSantis.

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Speaker 4: Saying We're going to shape the courts for seven two

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Speaker 4: conservative majority. Obviously, that would be the goal of a

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Speaker 4: Democrat president if they wanted to, if they were in

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Speaker 4: a similar situation, be the goal of any Republican president

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Speaker 4: cident for the most part, unless someone very moderate. But

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Speaker 4: that he is specifically already prioritizing the court is very telling.

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Speaker 4: But that's again you have this question of Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: having about thirty percent of really solid support in the

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Speaker 4: Republican Party. Thirty percent of Republican voters are Trump voters.

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Speaker 4: They may only vote Republican because of Donald Trump. They

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Speaker 4: may have voted Democrat before and now they vote Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: That is an unmovable probably thirty percent. What DeSantis's pitch

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Speaker 4: has always been is that he and Florida is appealing

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Speaker 4: to those voters while also being appealing to suburban voters

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Speaker 4: and while also continuing to peel off minority voters, Hispanic voters.

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Speaker 4: That is going to be really difficult when Donald Trump

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Speaker 4: is at that thirty percent and the rest of the

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Speaker 4: field is split between Tim Scott, Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley,

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Speaker 4: whoever the hell else decides to get into this race.

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Speaker 4: That makes you know, most Republican voters voted against Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump in the primaries in twenty sixteen, which is the

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Speaker 4: people forget a lot. And now if you're splitting it

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Speaker 4: up again, and Donald Trump is not going to lose

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Speaker 4: that thirty percent, they love him, and they probably a

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Speaker 4: big section of them are probably like old union Democratic

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Speaker 4: voters who are not going to vote for another regular politician.

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Speaker 4: There's just nothing you can do to winno away at

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Speaker 4: that number. And that's a real challenge for anybody, let

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Speaker 4: alone to Santas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, I mean, and it's not just

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Speaker 1: that he has that solid thirty percent. There's like eighty

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Speaker 1: percent or ninety percent of the Republican Party that's open

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Speaker 1: to voting for him. So he's, you know, in a

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Speaker 1: much stronger position than he was in twenty sixteen. And

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Speaker 1: then you have all of these candidates dividing the field.

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Speaker 1: I think in terms of DeSantis's electability pitch, another complicating

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Speaker 1: factor for him is the fact that he just signed

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Speaker 1: into law of the six week abortion ban, which, you know,

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Speaker 1: if part of your pitch is, hey, I can appeal

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Speaker 1: to suburbanites in a way that Trump has completely turned

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Speaker 1: them off, well you have just completely muddied that issue

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Speaker 1: because this is the you know issue that abortion has

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Speaker 1: become the most animating issue among suburban voters in particular,

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Speaker 1: suburban women in particular. So I also think that that

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Speaker 1: undercuts the electability argument. But you know, I want to

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Speaker 1: make the best case we can for him. I think

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Speaker 1: that he has already shown I think his team has

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Speaker 1: already shown a lot of competence.

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Speaker 5: They've shown themselves to be really nimble.

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Speaker 1: You know, in terms of Iowa, that that visit he

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Speaker 1: had recently where Trump pulled out and DeSantis then shows

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Speaker 1: up and kind of it's kind of like a little

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Speaker 1: jab at Trump, and ultimately, you know, the pace of

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Speaker 1: this race could be set in those early states. There's

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Speaker 1: reporting this morning about how they want to use their

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Speaker 1: money to really flood the zone in terms of organizers

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Speaker 1: into Iowa and New Hampshire and the other early state

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Speaker 1: primaries and caucuses. So that's their theory of the case.

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Speaker 1: And you know, right now, I think it looks like

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Speaker 1: a real uphill climb, But you know, it's.

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Speaker 5: Going to be a long primary season and you never

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Speaker 5: know what's going to happen. Emily, you never know what's

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Speaker 5: going to happen.

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Speaker 4: In my quick final thought on this is that the

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Speaker 4: guy is extremely popular in Florida. That has genuine like

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Speaker 4: generally been a fairly organic He barely won his governor's

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Speaker 4: race against Andrew Gillen.

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Speaker 3: It was just by a hair he won that race.

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Speaker 4: He then started, you know, governing in a way that

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Speaker 4: was very alien to a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of people in the Republican Party.

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Speaker 4: Has been you know, in the sort of Republican establishment circles,

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Speaker 4: very controversial. Those things that Ron DeSantis has done. But

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Speaker 4: in his state, his popularity is high. He has passed

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Speaker 4: a lot of legislation, and he has a good messaging

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Speaker 4: strategy on that legislation that makes it popular. Where the

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Speaker 4: media says, don't say gay, well, Florida is genuinely split

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Speaker 4: on whether or not they like that bill. Despite what

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Speaker 4: the media says it's actually fairly popular, way more than

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Speaker 4: the media says, and so to be able to sell

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Speaker 4: that despite the media noise saying one thing, to be

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Speaker 4: able to have a messaging strategy that cuts to what

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Speaker 4: voters think and what they want to hear, I think

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Speaker 4: that's that is a sign that he's definitely has political

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Speaker 4: talents that people probably underestimate on the national scale. So

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Speaker 4: it's going to be a very interesting primary, to say

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Speaker 4: the least, and an important primary so as we figure

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Speaker 4: out where the Republican Party is going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, and we'll be watching closely his announcement tonight.

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Speaker 1: I think Saga and I might jump on into a

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Speaker 1: little instant react, so so stay tuned for that.

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Speaker 3: Lea Sager worked today on a Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: Sager is he's NonStop man. He lives in that suit.

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Speaker 1: He's just like throws on the casual clothes over so

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Speaker 1: you can rip him off at any moment and be

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Speaker 1: ready to jump in front of a camera. So he's unstoppable.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about whatever.

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Speaker 5: We know about the dead ceiling. At this point, as

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Speaker 5: you guys know.

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Speaker 1: We are hurtling, barreling rapidly towards the supposed drop dead date,

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Speaker 1: which is June first. I'll tell you a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about There are some questions over whether they could

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Speaker 1: push that out further, but we'll get to that in

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Speaker 1: a minute.

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Speaker 5: For now, let's say June.

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Speaker 1: First is when you actually run out of money and

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Speaker 1: have to start making choices about what you pay, when

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Speaker 1: you actually go into default, when you have all of

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Speaker 1: these potentially catastrophic consequences that we are all concerned about.

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Speaker 1: So Jake Sherman had some reporting yesterday from an internal

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Speaker 1: Republican House Caucus meeting. He's got some details here about

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Speaker 1: what they are saying amongst themselves. Go ahead and put

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Speaker 1: this up on the screen. Speaker McCarthy just told House Republicans.

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Speaker 1: He says, inside a clothes house, doop, meaning I need

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Speaker 1: you all to hang with me on the debt limit.

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Speaker 5: Quote.

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Speaker 1: We are nowhere near a deal yet, very confidence inspiring.

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Speaker 1: He goes on to say, put this next piece up, Colvin,

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Speaker 1: I told the President three things. No clean debt limit,

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Speaker 1: no raising taxes, spend less money. Remember where we were

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Speaker 1: they refused to negotiate. We ow Garrett Graves and Patrick mckenry.

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Speaker 1: They're the ones who've been negotiating a round of applause.

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Speaker 1: They made a mistake. He's talking about the Democrats to

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Speaker 1: not negotiate. Let's say stay strong together. He goes on

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Speaker 1: to say, McCarthy showed a video with a chronology of

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Speaker 1: Democrats saying they wouldn't negotiate. So their own little like

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Speaker 1: propaganda piece to say, look, we rolled them. They already caved,

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Speaker 1: which you know, hard to deny that that's the case.

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Speaker 1: And then another important note here, put this next piece

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Speaker 1: up on the screen. Colvin McCarthy got back up from

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Speaker 1: the right and got back up from the right and

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Speaker 1: closed House Guop meeting. Gates said McCarthy's tone was pitch perfect,

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Speaker 1: and Scott Perry also concurred. So that shows a sort

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Speaker 1: of unified Republican House Caucus in terms of the demands

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Speaker 1: that they were making. One thing I'll point out here,

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Speaker 1: I mean saying no raising taxes. That's an issue for Democrats.

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Speaker 1: And it is very hard to see how this all

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Speaker 1: gets resolved because the ground that Republicans have staked down,

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Speaker 1: and that they sort of have to stake out in

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Speaker 1: order to remain unified since you have the House Freedom

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Speaker 1: Caucus taking relatively extreme positions is wildly unacceptable.

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Speaker 5: To Democrats.

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Speaker 1: So they have not only called for you know, in

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Speaker 1: nominal terms, not just accounting for inflation, but in nominal terms,

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Speaker 1: they want spending cuts that makes it, you know, very

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Speaker 1: aggressive cuts. They also want to increase the budget for

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Speaker 1: the military. They want to cut spending to the IRS,

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Speaker 1: which actually puts a further hole in the budget because

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Speaker 1: IRS agents helped to bring in additional revenue. And so

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Speaker 1: you've lift yourself this very limited pool of funds of

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Speaker 1: programs that you can cut, and that would require really

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Speaker 1: dramatic cuts not only to social safety net programs, but

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Speaker 1: also to what has been Biden's signature program, the Inflation

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Speaker 1: Reduction Act, which is going to be a really red

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Speaker 1: line for him, also for House Democrats, for Senate Democrats.

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Speaker 1: So and as he mentions here, they're not putting any

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Speaker 1: taxes on the table. There was also reporting about Biden

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Speaker 1: was saying, hey, let's work into this, like negotiating more

442
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: prescription drug prices. McCarthy was like, now, we don't want

443
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 1: to do anything that's actually good in this whole situation.

444
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 1: So they put that off the table. They don't want

445
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 1: to close the carried interest loophole. They certainly don't want

446
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: to roll back any of the Trump tax cuts that

447
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: largely went to wealthy incorporations. So even though they continue

448
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: to talk, I just don't know how they actually find

449
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: some sort of meeting of the minds here that's going

450
00:20:58,640 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 1: to be acceptable.

451
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think any way.

452
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 4: But although Mitch McConnell did say yesterday, you know, everybody

453
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 4: calmed down, they're gonna come to a deal, which was

454
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,400
Speaker 4: fairly interesting because the can has really been kicked over

455
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 4: to McCarthy. McConnell has really taken a back seat.

456
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, mccon's like, all right, dude, good luck.

457
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 3: And McConnell was that.

458
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 4: McConnell was out and injured through a lot of this, Yes,

459
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,399
Speaker 4: in the hospital. He was back in Kentucky because he

460
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 4: had a fall. But Kevin McCarthy took the reins on this,

461
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,879
Speaker 4: and if he were a Democrat, the glowing profiles of

462
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,360
Speaker 4: how he has held his conference together despite having this

463
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 4: insanely slim majority, where people have no incentive really to

464
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 4: get along with him, because they can. You know, if

465
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 4: you're the Freedom Caucus, even if you're the Moderates, you

466
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 4: can do so much stuff on your own and message

467
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 4: on your own and not be unified, and that could

468
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 4: still end up happening. Yeah, like we can't, you know,

469
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 4: count the chickens before they hatch, because that's very much

470
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 4: still possible. But the level of unity in a very

471
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 4: divided conference in a very difficult situation. One thing that

472
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 4: I have heard from Republican circles and especially Freedom Coccus circles,

473
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 4: is that they think that a lot of these differences

474
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 4: were ironed out during the speaker battle in January, and

475
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 4: so when they came to loggerheads then and fought so

476
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 4: bitterly over whether Kevin McCarthy would be the speaker, they

477
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 4: kind of figured out how to get along, and that's

478
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 4: helping them now.

479
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 3: Again, this could still blow up in everyone's face.

480
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 4: But I've been scratching my head and trying to figure

481
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 4: out why on earth Joe Biden ever came to the

482
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 4: table from a purely strategic standpoint, like the moral and

483
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 4: ideological questions aside. It makes absolutely no sense that he

484
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 4: started negotiating because there is an impasse, bottom line, there's

485
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,399
Speaker 4: no compromise.

486
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: His whole position has been the worst of all worlds

487
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 1: in terms of just any sort of trying to get

488
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: strategic leverage. If you were going to negotiate from the beginning.

489
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: You should have just negotiated from the beginning. The worst

490
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: thing you could do is say absolutely no negotiation and

491
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,360
Speaker 1: then completely cave and negotiate the you know, in my opinion,

492
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: what they should have done from the beginning is continue

493
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: to hold out the very clear possibility of fourteenth Amendment

494
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: or some other workaround, because that really signals to the

495
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,199
Speaker 1: I'm like, listen, we don't have to give you anything.

496
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: And you know, also, in my opinion, they should actually

497
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: exercise one of these options so we never have to

498
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 1: deal with this nonsense again, which is truly dangerous and

499
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: potentially catastrophic. I mean, people can lose their jobs, like

500
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: millions of people could lose their jobs. You could have

501
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: the whole global financial system completely collapse, really damaging to

502
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 1: America's standing the world.

503
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 5: Treasury bonds are.

504
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: Used to backstop like every big corporate transaction around the world.

505
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: So this is really dangerous stuff that they're playing with here.

506
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 1: And not only that, but Democrats could have lifted the

507
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: debt sailing on their own back when they had control

508
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 1: before they lost the House, and they just didn't do it.

509
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 5: That to me in terms of you.

510
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: Know, they can't see three inches in front of their faces,

511
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 1: and they were so worried about giving the Republicans and

512
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 1: some talking point about like, oh, Democrats love debt, that

513
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: they've now risked the entire entire global financial economy. I mean, listen,

514
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: Republicans are the hostage takers, so they're to blame in

515
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: my view. But Democrats just never are able to strategize

516
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: effectively and actually get out from under these problems. And

517
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: I think part of it is not just that they

518
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: didn't want to give Republicans a talking point. I think

519
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 1: part of it is also that they sort of calculated

520
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: that this would be bad for the Republican Party, the

521
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: specter of them holding them hostage and all of that,

522
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: and based on the polling, it's not clear that the

523
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: messaging is even working out for them.

524
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 5: But you know, I think politicians on.

525
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: Both sides sort of like these kinds of crises because

526
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: they think they can leverage them for their own political end,

527
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: and it's really grotesque.

528
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 4: So great point, and particularly one thing I think is

529
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 4: genuinely worth thinking about if you're sitting at the DNC

530
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,199
Speaker 4: right now, is how incredibly their advantage with the media

531
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: has started to become a disadvantage in ways that they

532
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 4: don't anticipate. Because if you go back to the Obama years,

533
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 4: which are heavy on everyone's mind. You had Dan Fire

534
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 4: for writing about it in the New York Times recently.

535
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 4: Those negotiations really went poorly for the Tea Party Republicans

536
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 4: who felt like they had the wind at the back

537
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 4: and the wind at their back, and we're doing great

538
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 4: and giving the voters what they wanted, and they were

539
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 4: going to come out on top because this was the

540
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 4: libertarian moment, as Time had on their cover.

541
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 3: It did not work out that way, and in large part.

542
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 4: Because the media heavily, heavily, heavily sided with Democrats and

543
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 4: on government shutdown stuff.

544
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: Average voters hate that.

545
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: If you're someone who maybe leans right, votes Republicans sometimes

546
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: votes Democrats sometimes aren't paying super close attention to the news,

547
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: what you're going to instinctively hate is the government not working,

548
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 4: like things just not happening, people holding stuff hostage for

549
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 4: ideological reasons.

550
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: You don't care.

551
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 4: You want things to work and you're disappointed when they don't.

552
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 4: And so that's a built in disadvantage to being obstructionist, period.

553
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 4: Even if there are ideological reasons that justify it. You

554
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 4: have a huge, huge problem if you're Republicans. Democrats know

555
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 4: that they know that the media is going to take

556
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 4: their side at the end of the day.

557
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 3: They know instinctively there's independent voters.

558
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 4: People just really don't like when government stops, and that

559
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: I think gave them a false sense of confidence that

560
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 4: they could basically do whatever they wanted start negotiating. Say, listen,

561
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 4: Republicans are screwing this up. They don't want to work

562
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 4: out a deal, and the media is going to take

563
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: their side, which is true, but it doesn't mean that

564
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: it shows any leadership and is any healthier for the

565
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 4: country when you could have just done the damn thing

566
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 4: before this all happens, and you could have just not negotiated,

567
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 4: and Republicans can't do anything about it if you don't negotiate.

568
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 5: Well, and here's the other thing.

569
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: By Biden caving, he has basically given credence to the

570
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: Republican claim that the debt is a real issue right

571
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: now that needs to be dealt with. And that's why

572
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: you see a lot of pulling that people are like, yeah,

573
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: we want a debt sealing increase, but with spending cuts. Well,

574
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: when you have both political parties basically saying like, all right,

575
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: got it, we should negotiate and we should have some

576
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: sort of spending cuts. Into that narrative, of course, you're

577
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: going to end up with people wanting them to have

578
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: some sort of a deal because you're not getting any

579
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: other messaging from anywhere else, when the reality is there's

580
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: no sign in the market that we are close to

581
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: any sort of a debt catastrophe. Interest rates were low

582
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: and still remain relatively low by historical standards, even in

583
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: spite of the Federal Reserve hiking interest rates. There were

584
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: no issues with like selling our debt. There was no

585
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: indication in the market that this was a looming problem.

586
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: And there's also no indication that Republicans actually care about

587
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: this issue because they obviously blew up our debt and

588
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: deficit with the Trump tax cuts, which they are adamantly

589
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: committed to and have no intention of rolling back. This

590
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: only becomes an issue when it's Democrats who are in power.

591
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: So I think there's a lot of foolishness here all around.

592
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: But the catastrophic error for Democrats was not dealing with

593
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: this when they had complete power and when they could

594
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: have there was another weird thing that happened in the

595
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: Republican Caucus meeting that we wanted to highlight for you.

596
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: Put this up on the screen. They did a fifteen

597
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: minute fundraising auction for some use chapstick from speaker McCarthy.

598
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: Don't know, okay, whatever, that's kind of gross. Marjorie Taylor

599
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: Green apparently won. Her winning bid was one hundred thousand dollars.

600
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: This goes to like Republican campaign efforts. He also threw

601
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: in there that he would attend to dinner with donors

602
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: and supporters for whoever wins. So congratulations Marjorie. I think

603
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: we have a picture of her with her.

604
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 5: Chapstick that she won.

605
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: Apparently the flavor, according to some in depth reporting here

606
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: is cherry.

607
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 5: So there you go. That also happened.

608
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: Let's put this next piece up on the screen. Manu Raju,

609
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: this is what I was referring to earlier. Biden tried

610
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: to add in a provision to the debt talks to

611
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 1: expand Medicare's authority to negotiate drug prices. This is one

612
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: of those things that everybody pretends to be in favor of,

613
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: but then it never actually happens because of the power

614
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: of big Pharma, and McCarthy said that seems like a

615
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: place to try and disrupt the whole negotiations, like trying

616
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: to throw taxes in. Now, try to start talking about Medicare,

617
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: so he comes out there in favor of keeping prices

618
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: high for Medicare and you know, gouging the government. That's

619
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 1: why it makes sense to put in here. If you're

620
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: talking about cutting spending, one thing that would cut spending

621
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: is if Medicare could negotiate with drug makers on the

622
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: cost of prescriptions. You could save some dollars there. But no,

623
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: we'll just keep giving the premium to big pharma.

624
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, I like, actually am ideologically more

625
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 4: concerned about Dutton deficit. I think, you know, the financial

626
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 4: management of the United States is to find it genuinely problematic.

627
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 4: But the things Republicans and Democrats to some extent are

628
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 4: picking to have fights over are incredibly stupid. And I

629
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 4: really thought that this would be an opportunity, just like

630
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 4: hearing some of the chatter in GOP circles, an opportunity

631
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 4: to start taking on the surveillance state, to start taking

632
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 4: on some absolutely ridiculous like excessive culturally like radical stuff

633
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 4: that's been baked into the federal government from a conservative

634
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 4: perspective that I think most people would probably object to.

635
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: It's none of that. That's not where any of.

636
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 4: This fight has gone. Like ridiculous Pentagon programs. Why aren't

637
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 4: they fighting about that stuff?

638
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 5: No, they want to give the Pentagon more money.

639
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing.

640
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, how about all of these things We're

641
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 4: seeing all these offices like Ken Clippenstein reports on a

642
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: new one every week that nobody knew existed at the Pentagon,

643
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: and it just exists to surveil average Americans for the

644
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 4: partisan purposes of the intelligence community. Why aren't they picking

645
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: fights over that that's worth shutting down the government?

646
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 3: Basically, like, if anything is that's worth it, there are

647
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 3: just other things that would make so much more sense.

648
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: And people who were doing like crunching some numbers RUSS

649
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: vote as former own B director under Trump put together

650
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 4: a budget of things that actually, really I thought were

651
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: worth fighting over, and I just I'm not hearing much

652
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 4: of that on the messaging side. And I think part

653
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 4: of that is because when Biden started negotiating, it's just

654
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 4: it's an impasse, and you can't if you're actually trying

655
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: to find legitimate places for compromise.

656
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 3: It's not any of that.

657
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, they took I mean I'm glad they did,

658
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: but they took Social Security and Medicare off the table,

659
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: maybe accidentally the Biden State of the Union. And they

660
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: took the Pentagon off the table, and in fact want

661
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: to increase funding at the Pentagon.

662
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 5: That doesn't leave a whole lot left.

663
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: And so it's like, Okay, you're risking the whole global

664
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: economy for some blank additional work requirements on SNAP really really.

665
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: My other question for you, Emily is I have also

666
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: been surprised that they've been able to keep the Republican

667
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: Caucus together as well as they have. I was frankly

668
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: surprised they were able to as easily as they did

669
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: pass their bill through the House. My question is what

670
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: happens when the markets crash?

671
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 5: What happens when the.

672
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: Wall Street donors start actually freaking out and calling members

673
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: of the Republican House Caucus. That's when, to me, the

674
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: rubber sort of hits the road in terms of whether

675
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: they have any defections and whether they have anyone who's

676
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: open to say. For example, the discharge petition that Democrats

677
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: are floating where you need five Republicans to sign on

678
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: to get that through the House. Do you think that

679
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: you start to see cracks emerge then, Because even though

680
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: you got Matt Gates giving McCarthy backup in this Republican

681
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: House Caucus meeting yesterday, he also then went and told reporters,

682
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't think we should be negotiating at all. I

683
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: think our position should be what we passed in the

684
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: House and that's it, end of story. There have been

685
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: other you Republicans who are on record being like, I

686
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: will not vote for raising the debt ceiling no matter what. Yep.

687
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 5: So do you think that you could have cracks.

688
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: Emerged there in the unity of the Republican Caucus when

689
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: if and I would say it's more likely to when

690
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: you have a massive market crash in Wall Street starts

691
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: to freak.

692
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 3: They're incredibly vulnerable.

693
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 4: I think they're in a better position than they would

694
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 4: be under any other potential speaker with Kevin McCarthy, because

695
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 4: he's so intentional. I mean, the real lesson from the

696
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Green chapstick auction, which, by the way, we

697
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 4: will be auctioning off Sager's chapstick and it is used,

698
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 4: but no, the real story there is a year ago,

699
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 4: most of the establishment press would have said, how absurd

700
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: it is that Marjorie Taylor Green, in a really bitter

701
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 4: potential shutdown battle over the debt ceiling, is actually so

702
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: chummy with Kevin McCarthy that they're auctioning off chapstick in

703
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: the middle of it, and she's happy to make the

704
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 4: winning one hundred thousand dollars bid. That is very unusual

705
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 4: par to where the Republican establishment and the Tea Party movement,

706
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 4: where the Freedom Coucus movement were under Barack Obama, even

707
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 4: under Paul Ryan. And so they're in the best possible

708
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: situation with Kevin McCarthy because he's very intentional about courting

709
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 4: those disparate sort of factions of his party, and he's

710
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 4: good at it.

711
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: He's actually pretty.

712
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: Good at a political ran A story last year that

713
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 4: was just is Kevin McCarthy dumb?

714
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: You remember that headline, Oh my.

715
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 4: Gosh, again, Like he actually is not. He's very good

716
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 4: at this, and so if there's any hope of preventing that,

717
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 4: it's because of Kevin McCarthy.

718
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's just not.

719
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 4: A lot of incentive on the Freedom Caucus part to

720
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 4: play nice. When the rubber meets the road and Kevin

721
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 4: McCarthy's getting calls from Wall Street donors, people are freaking out.

722
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: That's where things, you're right, are going to get really

723
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: tough because the Freedom Caucus is not.

724
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: Beholden to those people.

725
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 4: It's not beholden to the same sort of corporate donor set,

726
00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 4: especially not now.

727
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, past, Well, you have the Freedom Caucus group, which

728
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: benefits personally, you know, in terms of their like grassroots

729
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: and online support. The more strident they are, yes, right,

730
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: the more extreme, the.

731
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 5: More willing to blow things up they are.

732
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: Then you have this new crop of Republicans elected in

733
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: districts that Joe Biden won in places like New York,

734
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: and their incentives are very different, right, They want to

735
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: get reelected, they want to show to their districts. I'm

736
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: different than those crazy people on the type of like

737
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: reasonable Republican who just wants some fiscal responsibility in this

738
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: joint and so they you know, if you do have

739
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: that kind of crash, those disparate incentives may come to

740
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: the fore. But we'll see how that all goes. There's

741
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: one other piece here, you know, I keep saying, I

742
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 1: really don't know how this is going to be resolved.

743
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: I don't even have a guess at this point how

744
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: this is going to be figured out, because it's just

745
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: very hard for me to see how the White House

746
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 1: the Republicans come to a deal. The White House seems

747
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: to have put any of the extraordinary measures like fourteenth

748
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: Amendment kind of off the table, although they still have

749
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: technically kept those as live options. Jeff Stein reports on

750
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: what is another effort here to at least kick the

751
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: can down the road a little bit.

752
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 5: Put this up on the screen from Jeff.

753
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: He's got a scoop that Treasury has asked US agencies

754
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: if any payments can be made at a later date.

755
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 5: As the deadline nears.

756
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: According to an internal memo that was obtained by the

757
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: Washington Post, Biden aids are searching for new ways to

758
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: prolong the X date beyond existing measure. Sources say, so

759
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: the X date right now is June one, and the

760
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: idea here, Emily is if they can actually push out

761
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: till June fifteen, there's a bunch of quarterly tax payments

762
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: that will flow into government coffers, then they would be

763
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: able to stay alive for a while longer and push

764
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: this off even further down the road. Now, it's the

765
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: technicalities here are tricky. It's not obvious that they could

766
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: actually make this work. God, and put the next part

767
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: from Jeff up on the screen. I think we have

768
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: a couple more tweets from him. He says, if they

769
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 1: can and find a few days worth of extra cash,

770
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 1: they can make it to June fifteen, then they get

771
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of new tax revenue. Obviously that's not

772
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: the preferred outcome to punt the deadline to July, but

773
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: that would at least buy them support time, they say.

774
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 5: Despite the attention to.

775
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: Legally novel arguments around minting the coin and the fourteenth Amendment,

776
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: there's a key, separate set of options, also likely controversial,

777
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: to simply delay the date rather than simply end the standoff.

778
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 5: As those ideas do.

779
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: And he puts in parentheses, don't you love the idea

780
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: of doing this for longer? I think Jeff is also

781
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: set to get married, so I'm sure he would love

782
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: having to follow this while he's, like, you know, on

783
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: his wedding day and on his honeymoon whatever. But anyway,

784
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of technical questions whether they can actually

785
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: do this because there's government regulations about like, hey, you

786
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: got to like pay your bills on time federal government,

787
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: and you can't. You are also sort of usurping some

788
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: of the power of Congress if you are picking and

789
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: choosing what bills get paid and what bills don't get paid.

790
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: So there are some questions around whether the strategy would

791
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: be feasible or legal. But as of now, you know,

792
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: I think, to me, what this shows is they really

793
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: don't have a clear plan about how to work this out,

794
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: and now they're like, well, maybe our best bet is

795
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: just to like kick this down the road, so maybe

796
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: we can come up with a plan that might ultimately

797
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: work out.

798
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 4: They're just going like full Jackson Pollock, like throwing things

799
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 4: onto the canvas, seeing what it looks like. No, I mean,

800
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 4: it's like, I actually think that's arguably the worst approach

801
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 4: is saying we have this potential stop gap, we can

802
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,439
Speaker 4: keep kicking it down, because that's again what they did

803
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 4: from last year.

804
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 3: They could have done this last year. It's easier.

805
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 4: You Actually, they have a recess coming up that might

806
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 4: have to be abridged if they end up needing to

807
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 4: come back to DC and vote on negotiations. As silly

808
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 4: as that sounds, that is a motivation for members of

809
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 4: Congress would be.

810
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: Shocked to learn they don't. You like to have that

811
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 3: stuff interrupted.

812
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 4: So all of those things going on, I mean, the

813
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 4: incentive to not figure this out and make a decision,

814
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 4: whether it's saying we're at an impass, we can't compromise,

815
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 4: we're going this way or that way, the incentive to

816
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 4: do that sooner.

817
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Rather than later is really important because.

818
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 4: Otherwise, I think that's where you get into a dangerous situation.

819
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 4: If you can't figure it out now, you're not going

820
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 4: to figure it out in two weeks. I mean, it's

821
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 4: just going to continue to get worse, and whatever deal

822
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 4: you come to is going to continue to get worse

823
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 4: in the next two weeks. I think there's a little

824
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 4: measure of truth to what Mitch McConnell says that, like

825
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 4: something's going to get done, it's probably going to be

826
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 4: bad for both Republicans and Democrats. He may be much

827
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 4: more optimistic that it's going to be good for Republicans

828
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 4: than it ultimately is. But whatever deal they come to

829
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 4: avoid default, I don't think that's actually going to happen.

830
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 3: But you know, crazier things have happened.

831
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 4: I guess the host of Celebrity Apprentice was our president for.

832
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 5: I remember that.

833
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 4: I remember that things can things can spiral. But all

834
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 4: that is to say, if you keep punting, you're going

835
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 4: to further lose your ability to do something that actually

836
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 4: makes sense, because if you can't do it now, you're.

837
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: Not going to do it.

838
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 5: I agree with you. You kind of need the force.

839
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: And nothing happens in DC until there's a hard deadline,

840
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: and you kind of need the forcing mechanism and all. So,

841
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: I mean, we're abots to talk about the economy. Like

842
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: the longer that this hangs over everybody, I think, the

843
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: worse it is all the way around. So let's go

844
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: ahead and move on to that next part, because you know,

845
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about the potential catastrophic economic fallout if we

846
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: do have a default, which I think is totally on

847
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: the table. Here, guys, there's new polling that shows, you know,

848
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: Americans are already feeling like the economy is really not good.

849
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: So let's put this first part up on the screen.

850
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: You've got these are the right track wrong track numbers,

851
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: and you can see that redline is Americans who feel

852
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: that the country is on the wrong track, the wrong track,

853
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: and you've got now sixty two percent who say that,

854
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: so an overwhelming majority. Now those numbers have been high

855
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: for a while, I want to be clear, but still not.

856
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 5: A good place to sit.

857
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: Let's put this next piece up on the screen, which

858
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: is more specifically about the economy. You have again sixty

859
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: two percent saying that they think the economy is weak today.

860
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because, of course you you have low

861
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: unemployment numbers, you have a tight labor market, but because

862
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: you have high inflation that's eating into a lot of

863
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: people's wages and making very difficult for people just to

864
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: get by month to month. You have people feeling, you know,

865
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: things are still not good right now. But this next

866
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: piece up on the screen, this is maybe in some

867
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: ways the most key metric. A majority forty nine percent,

868
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: so very near majority, say their own personal financial situation

869
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: is getting worse.

870
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 6: Now.

871
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: If you're an incumbent president, that is the last thing

872
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: you want to see. Especially Biden actually plans on running

873
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 1: hound how great the economy is. So when you have

874
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: a majority people saying, actually, things are getting worse for me,

875
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: and only I believe that's twenty five percent that say

876
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: things are actually getting better. So one quarter of the

877
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: country is like, yeah, things are going good for me,

878
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: and everyone else is like, h this is really kind

879
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: of a disaster, not a good landscape. And then finally,

880
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: only twenty one percent of Americans say that we are

881
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: going to avoid a recession. You have everybody else saying

882
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: we are either already in a recession or we will

883
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: be in a recession in the next year. So again,

884
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: a very dire landscape right now, even before you get

885
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: to potential default and whatever that would mean for the economy.

886
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 5: So Emily, you know, in my mind, there's.

887
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: Two pieces here that I think are really important, as

888
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: I pointed out in terms of Democrats and being able

889
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: to hold onto the White House with Joe Biden, you know,

890
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: as their standard bearer that they want to anoint once again,

891
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: and he wants to run on how great a job

892
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: he's done with the economy. These numbers do not seem

893
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: to give him back up there. And then there's just

894
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: the actual reality that people are struggling. They feel like

895
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: they're sliding backwards. Personal debt numbers keep hitting all time

896
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: highs as people try to, you know, cling to you know,

897
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: any sort of semblance of normalcy, any sort of semblance

898
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: of stability. So it's a pretty dire landscape that we

899
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: are already facing, going into a potential act, not a catastrophe.

900
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: One of the things in the poll I think is

901
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 4: really interesting when the question asked about the state of

902
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 4: the economy being strong or weak. The changes over just

903
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 4: the last several months are massive. It was like thirty

904
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 4: percent at the beginning of the year if people said

905
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 4: the economy was weak, and now it's at sixty two percent.

906
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: As you pointed out, that's a very quick and very

907
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: dramatic change.

908
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: And again here's we can put C two up.

909
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 4: Jamie Diamond has been talking about all kinds of things

910
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: per usual, but here he says, this is a CNBC headline,

911
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 4: Jamie Diamond warrens souring commercial real estate loans could threaten

912
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 4: some banks. Actually, in the same article it quotes Diamond

913
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 4: talking about how you should expect probably.

914
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: More rate hikes.

915
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 4: That's pretty interesting because if anybody's in a position to

916
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 4: know whether or not we should be expecting more rate hikes,

917
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 4: it'd be Jamie Diamond. And so when people's personal financial

918
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 4: situations are worsening.

919
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 3: Oh boy, people are right.

920
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 4: Things are getting worse for them and they will continue

921
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 4: to get worse for them likely.

922
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: Yes, And there are huge storm clouds hanging over and

923
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: already we economy, not only with the debt sealing, but

924
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: as Jamie Diamond, who's basically king now after all of

925
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: these like bank bailouts and his bank just becoming larger

926
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: and larger and larger National Bank. Yeah, that's why we

927
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: have to pay attention to what he says, because all

928
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: of these politicians we talk about, Jamie Diamond is actually

929
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: more powerful than all of them put together at this point.

930
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 5: So he's pointing to something that's.

931
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: Very real here, though, that I really want to keep

932
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: our eye on, in terms of the commercial real estate bubble.

933
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: And this is something I did a monologue on a

934
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: while back, because Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's longtime partner, is

935
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: saying the same thing that there's huge problems in terms

936
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: of the commercial real estate market.

937
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 5: Why because people after.

938
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: The pandemic, you know, you have hybrid work schedules that

939
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: people are really enjoying, and so you just don't have

940
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: office workers at the office the way that you did

941
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: and you probably never will again. It's very difficult to

942
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: convert office space to you know, residential space or anything

943
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: else which we could really use because on the other hand,

944
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: housing is wildly out affordable because you have very low

945
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: stock of housing to work with.

946
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 5: But it's very difficult to convert that.

947
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: Oh and so in the meantime, there are projections you

948
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: could see commercial real estate values dropping by forty percent,

949
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: and you have a lot of the commercial real estate

950
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 1: debt coming due in half of it is coming due

951
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: in just the next two years. So this is a

952
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: huge cloud overhanging the economy. It's like something has to

953
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,280
Speaker 1: give here, because when you have real estate values dropping

954
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: by potentially forty percent, that is a looming catastrophe. One

955
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: other piece here, put this last indicator up on the screen.

956
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: You're already seeing some signs of trouble in the corporate world.

957
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: Corporate bankruptcies, especially of large companies, are creeping up. As

958
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: they say, pressure grows in the economy. Again, this is

959
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of limited to large companies, and some of those,

960
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: you guys have probably noted Bed Bath and beyond, Vice Media,

961
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: among others that have filed for bankruptcies. Mark Zandi, who's

962
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: chief economist at Moody says among all types of companies

963
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: large and small, that increase in bankruptcies is more muted,

964
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: with filings remaining blow pre pandemic levels and historic norms.

965
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: So he's saying, listen, things are still not crazy, but

966
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: these are some warning signs. And also in this article

967
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: they quote an analyst who says that even a short

968
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: lived failure to pay government debts would push the economy

969
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: into recession. That means businesses are going to be struggling

970
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: with weak or sales, They're probably not going to be

971
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 1: able to get credit, so very quickly you'll be running

972
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: out of cash and having to make some pretty hard

973
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: choices layoff, slashing investment, and ultimately bankruptcy. Any long lasting

974
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: default would be catastrophic and cause a tsunami of bankruptcies.

975
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: So these are kind of you know, Canary and the

976
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: coal Mine kind of indicators. And then the last piece here,

977
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: there's actually some reporting from Ryan that we wanted to

978
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: highlight on the commercial real estate piece.

979
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 5: Not only do you have this looming.

980
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: Potential catastrophe of valuations plummeting because of what the FED

981
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 1: is doing, and also because of you know, changing office

982
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: work habits and routines. You also have some indications here

983
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: that banks are routinely overstating the value of commercial real estate.

984
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: And for those of you who remember how it all

985
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: went down with the housing crisis, what happened is you

986
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: had these inflated values for personal residential mortgages and then

987
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: those were securitized. They were like put together a chopp

988
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: uft in pieces and sold, and those pieces were also

989
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: then overstated because the underlying asset value was wildly overstated.

990
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: And what Ryan and John Swartz here are saying is

991
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: that you have a similar dynamic potentially unfolding in the

992
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: commercial real estate market right now, which again is not

993
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: some side corner of the economy. This is like a

994
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: multi trillion dollar issue that we could be reckoning with

995
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: over the coming years.

996
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 4: And that article from Ryan and John Schwartz is from

997
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, so obviously with the pandemic still in motion,

998
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 4: and that was the if we should have started paying

999
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 4: attention to this at any time.

1000
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 3: It was all the way back then.

1001
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 4: And now you have Jamie Dimond talking about it, obviously,

1002
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 4: but this is something that under Joe Biden, I mean,

1003
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 4: we were talking about the debt negotiations in the last segment,

1004
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 4: and how Republicans actually want to gut Biden's cornerstone achievement,

1005
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 4: the Inflation Reduction Act. Well, part of the reason Biden

1006
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 4: maybe went to the table on this is because he

1007
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 4: recognizes that's a big vulnerability for him, because you can

1008
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 4: pin some of the inflation, you can pin some of

1009
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 4: the economic malaise or economic even like looming chaos to

1010
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 4: all of the spending that the Biden administration passed, whether

1011
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 4: you support it or not. And so that's obviously there's

1012
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 4: corporate price gouging happening and all of that as well.

1013
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 4: But Biden hasn't been a leader either starting to negotiate

1014
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 4: with corporations, bringing them to the table and saying cut

1015
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 4: it out. What you're doing with these price hikes is insane,

1016
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 4: and we're going to start pursuing legal action or something

1017
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 4: like that. And he hasn't taken a leadership role in

1018
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 4: starting to really address these big question marks in the

1019
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 4: economy that we've known about for a fairly long time.

1020
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 4: And so you can see if you look back, how

1021
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 4: both Trump and Biden set the stage for something that's

1022
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 4: going to be is already not going to be is

1023
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 4: already a huge problem for aubage Americans.

1024
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it used to be this like fringe

1025
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: theory that corporations were using the excuse of inflation to

1026
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,399
Speaker 1: hike prices, and now increasingly even mainstream sources are having

1027
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: to be like, yeah, y'all kind of had a.

1028
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 5: Point about that.

1029
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: I mean, they were exactly like, they're literally admitting it

1030
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: on their earnings call, and you're like, y'all are crazy,

1031
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: They're not doing that.

1032
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 5: It's like, of course they are. Of course they are.

1033
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 5: That's what they do.

1034
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: And to your point, Emily Biden has a lot of tools,

1035
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: even just rhetorical tools, to call out the behavior and

1036
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 1: call the carpet corporate price gougers, but he hasn't gone

1037
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: in that direction whatsoever. And so instead they've used the

1038
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: very blunt instrument of the FED hiking rates in hopes

1039
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 1: that that will, you know, crush the economy and crush

1040
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: ordinary workers, et cetera, when it really is not a

1041
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: tool effectively designed. It's not going to deal with corporate

1042
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: price gouging whatsoever. It's not going to deal with supply

1043
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: chain issues whatsoever. So it's a very poorly designed tool,

1044
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: which is why it hasn't fully worked. You've seen the

1045
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: pace of inflation slow and it's not as fast growing

1046
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: as it was previously, but you still have a lot

1047
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: of inflation in the economy that is really hurting people.

1048
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: So all is the long way of saying that as

1049
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,919
Speaker 1: we approach this debt ceiling wall, whether it's June first

1050
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 1: or whether they're able to push it out and kick

1051
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: the can down the road a little bit, you know,

1052
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of reason to be very concerned

1053
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: already in the economy without adding this potential catastrophe on.

1054
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 3: Top of it. That's right.

1055
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, nobody needs us to tell them that, but they're

1056
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 4: not being served well by the political or corporate class.

1057
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 4: So some happy news to deliver on this Wednesday morning. Yes,

1058
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 4: all right, let's move on to news out of Montana, actually,

1059
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: where the first TikTok ban is being challenged.

1060
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 3: By TikTok itself.

1061
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 4: You'll be shocked to learn we can put the first

1062
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 4: element up on the screen here from the Wall Street Journal.

1063
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 4: They report that TikTok is suing Montana over their new

1064
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 4: ban of the social media platform. They're actually challenging it

1065
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 4: on a constitutional basis. Here's more from the Journal. The

1066
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 4: suit was filed Monday in the US District Court of Montana,

1067
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 4: and it alleges that the ban violates the First.

1068
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 3: Amendment other laws. The case was brought.

1069
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 4: Against the state's attorney General, who is the person that

1070
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 4: was tasked by the law with enforcing the band. Now

1071
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 4: that ban is not set to go into place until

1072
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 4: January first. This is a little sentence in the journal

1073
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 4: report quote it is unclear how it will be in force.

1074
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 4: That is true, it is unclear how it will be

1075
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 4: enforced the law. This is more from the journal. It's

1076
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 4: saying that it's banning byteedance from quote operating in the

1077
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 4: state and app stores such as Googles and Apples.

1078
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 3: That is pretty interesting, and.

1079
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 4: It says any entity violating the law will be fined

1080
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars a day, while individual TikTok users will

1081
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 4: not be punished. Now, a group of TikTokers actually sued

1082
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 4: the attorney general last week over the ban.

1083
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 3: They have all kinds of followers.

1084
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 4: They say that it's unconstitutional, violates the First Amendment and

1085
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 4: other laws. TikTok is also saying that it's not within

1086
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 4: Montana's purview to actually enact a ban based on national

1087
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 4: security concerns, because that's a exclusively the federal government's right

1088
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 4: with foreign entities. That's something that is not at the

1089
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 4: state level. It's an interesting part of the lawsuit because

1090
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 4: it sort of challenges the system of federalism, and TikTok

1091
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 4: is saying this ban is in violation of a law

1092
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 4: that prevents the government from saying a person is guilty

1093
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 4: of a crime and then punishing them without ever going

1094
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 4: to trial, and rules that govern interstate commerce. As the

1095
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 4: journal reports, and they quote a professor at the University

1096
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 4: of Richmond, a law professor who says, quote, the First

1097
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 4: Amendment argument is a very strong one. He continues to add,

1098
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 4: the claim for Montana is that they're protecting national security,

1099
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 4: and that is something squarely within the domain of the

1100
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 4: federal government, not left to the state.

1101
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 3: So on two points there you.

1102
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 4: Have a lot of professors saying the Montana ban is vulnerable.

1103
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 4: The first point being the First Amendment speech questions. The

1104
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,760
Speaker 4: second point being if you're doing this on national security

1105
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 4: grounds as a state, it's constitutionally shaky ground as well.

1106
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 4: Now totally against TikTok for a number of reasons. Whether

1107
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 4: a state ban is the way to handle it is

1108
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 4: a separate question whether something needs to be done.

1109
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was wondering about that because it you know,

1110
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: for you, I was wondering what your thoughts were.

1111
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 5: In my opinion.

1112
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 1: You know, I have a lot of concerns about obviously privacy,

1113
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: not only when it comes to TikTok, but when it

1114
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: comes to all of these social media platforms. That's number one.

1115
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: There's a lot of civil liberties violations there. In my opinion,

1116
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,919
Speaker 1: there's also increasing research, including dire warning from the Surge

1117
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: in general, about the impact of over use of social

1118
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,240
Speaker 1: media on mental health, and especially mental health of young people.

1119
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: I have a fifteen year old. I see this like

1120
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: up close and personal as a parent. It is something

1121
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: that I'm very concerned about. I think a ban is

1122
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: way too blunt a tool and goes way too far

1123
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: just to say in one fell swoop like this one

1124
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: particular company we're going to target for a ban.

1125
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 5: I think that that.

1126
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know whether it's going to end

1127
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: up being legal.

1128
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 5: I couldn't tell you.

1129
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: I'm not a legal analyst, but in terms of whether

1130
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 1: I think it's the right to approach or not, I

1131
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: would say, now, what goes too far.

1132
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 4: Doing it on the state level is really interesting too,

1133
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 4: because there are pretty clear national security reasons to target

1134
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 4: TikTok to say, like, obviously, we have a problem here

1135
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 4: because Americans data is being sucked up by a country

1136
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 4: that's posturing as a hostile foreign power, and it just

1137
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense to be hoovering up all the data

1138
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 4: with really no concern, really no safeguard, because even TikTok

1139
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 4: says with Project Taxes, which is their delivery of American

1140
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 4: data into Oracle Cloud, there will still be some people

1141
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 4: in Beijing who are authorized to view the data. Okay,

1142
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 4: So that's already a concession that there's going to be

1143
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 4: some people that could be We know, thanks to excellent

1144
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 4: reporting from Forbes, there are plenty of members of the

1145
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 4: CCP that actually work at byte Edances headquarters in Beijing.

1146
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 4: So who's going to have access to the data? How

1147
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 4: close are they to the Chinese government?

1148
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 3: That question is.

1149
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 4: Not solved by Project Texas whatsoever, despite TikTok's repeated assurances

1150
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 4: that this is the answer to the problem. But that's again,

1151
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 4: it's a federal question. That's clearly a federal question, not

1152
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 4: a state based question. Utah actually just banned access to Pornhub.

1153
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 4: Did you follow that at all a little bit?

1154
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: I saw UTAH was doing a lot in terms of

1155
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: also providing parents with like access to their kids, you know,

1156
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 1: social media accounts. They're they're doing a lot over there,

1157
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: which I also have like sort of complicated feelings about.

1158
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 1: And I don't think any of this breaks down along

1159
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: easy partisan lines because.

1160
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 3: Although Democrats are allowing it.

1161
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: To, there's a lot of there's a lot of tricky

1162
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: principles in conflict when you talk about these. I mean,

1163
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: the other thing that struck me about the Montana band

1164
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 1: that I was kind of surprised about is I didn't

1165
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: think that you could just directly target one company. So

1166
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,880
Speaker 1: in this bill they single out TikTok. Usually what LED

1167
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: lawmakers do, because I think it's the way you're supposed

1168
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: to legislate, is they'll put in a bunch of s

1169
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: difficil Oh, it's going to apply to a company that

1170
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: has this percent foreign ownership, blah blah blah, where at

1171
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: the end of the day, Okay, maybe only applies to

1172
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: TikTok or like two other things, but it really is

1173
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: aimed at TikTok. But they explicitly were like, no, this

1174
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: is just about TikTok, which also, you know, makes me

1175
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: feel like part of this too is not just genuine

1176
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: concerns about data privacy, which again apply across the board

1177
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: to all of these social media companies, but it's also

1178
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: specifically about this like China, cold war hawkish few towards

1179
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: one country in particular. But you know, if you really

1180
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: are concerned about the data privacy piece of this, or

1181
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: about the teenager social media mental health piece of this,

1182
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: I think what you have to do is you have

1183
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 1: to have an across the board regime that protects people's

1184
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: privacy that can be applied to TikTok. I mean, listen,

1185
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: Twitter has Saudi investors, so why are we not concerned

1186
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: about that, right? I mean a lot of these companies

1187
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: have foreign investors that one could be concerned about if

1188
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 1: you're worried about foreign powers having access. And they also

1189
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: are all giant, you know, multi billion dollar corporations that

1190
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: have been weaponizing our own data against us and you know,

1191
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: selling into the highest bidder. So it seems like the

1192
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: right approach is federal. It seems like it's protecting data

1193
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: privacy and not just aimed at one particular company for

1194
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,760
Speaker 1: an outright ban, which again I think is too heavy handed.

1195
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 4: And some of this is the normal, like using the

1196
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 4: state level as the laboratory of democracy. And maybe there's

1197
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 4: a novel legal theory that's going to be put to

1198
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 4: the test in court over this, where there's there's some

1199
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 4: provision in Montana state law, or there's some provision that's

1200
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,240
Speaker 4: been tested, there's some Supreme Court ruling that could apply

1201
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 4: and protect Montana's ban, and that's all going to be

1202
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 4: tested and tried, and maybe we'll learn some interesting things

1203
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 4: through this legal back and forth.

1204
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's fair.

1205
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just this is a huge problem because it's

1206
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 4: not just going to be TikTok to your point, it's

1207
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 4: also American companies that are exporting and we're going to

1208
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 4: talk about this a little later in the show. Some

1209
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 4: heavy surveillance tools to other countries that other countries aren't

1210
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 4: cool with in the same way that Pontana's not cool

1211
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 4: with it, and that the United States. A lot of

1212
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 4: people in the United States aren't cool with Byteedance. We're

1213
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 4: kind of doing the same thing with Facebook, and Facebook

1214
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 4: operates Instagram, Snapchat, these all have the same Twitter, these

1215
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 4: all have the same bad incentive structure that is addictive,

1216
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 4: and as Jonathan hat has been documenting extensively over on

1217
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 4: his sub stack after Babble, the evidence is now mounting

1218
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 4: that these have been very, very damaging to young people's brains,

1219
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 4: to their mental health. That is not just coming from Beijing.

1220
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 4: I think it's ultra or extra problematic that you could

1221
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 4: have potential manipulation coming from a foreign power of the

1222
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 4: algorithm that's going into teenagers' brains. I think it's problematic

1223
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 4: that they could have control, like over election stuff. You know,

1224
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 4: they have people say whether they're interested in voting and

1225
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 4: registering on TikTok. Well, you can all then be fed

1226
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 4: misinformation based on you know, what they can guess about

1227
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 4: your party and what they can guess about your location.

1228
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 3: All that stuff is not good.

1229
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 4: So I think the instinct to take action against TikTok

1230
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 4: is understandably.

1231
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 3: More urgent than the other companies. But if you're not

1232
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 3: starting to.

1233
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 4: Target the other companies, I don't know if I can

1234
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 4: take it seriously.

1235
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are all sorts of products that we regulate

1236
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: because of our concern over their harm to kids, in

1237
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 1: particular whose brains are still forming This is a like

1238
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: brave new world we're in where not only is it

1239
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: social media, but the way that it's not accidental that

1240
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: these things are addictive. They are engineered to be addictive.

1241
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: They are engineered to keep you on their platforms as

1242
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: long as possible, even.

1243
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 5: Though this is to keep you angry and to keep

1244
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 5: that's I was gonna mention that. I mean, that was

1245
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 5: one of.

1246
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: The interesting revelations from the whole like Facebook file thing

1247
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 1: that came out was that they saw that people liked

1248
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: their product less but stayed on it longer. Yeah, why

1249
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 1: when they amped up the anger and the rage content,

1250
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: They're like, people find this to be a worse experience,

1251
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: but they stay longer, and that's all we care about.

1252
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: And you can bet it's not just Facebook that is

1253
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: making those sort of calculations. So we're seeing now huge

1254
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: fall and especially among teenage girls, from the amount of

1255
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: time on these platforms and the way these platforms have

1256
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: been engineered to basically like, you know, torturous.

1257
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 4: And that's why even like most libertarians are not in

1258
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 4: favor of legalizing heroin, you like the hardcore ones are,

1259
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 4: but like free markets don't work when a product is

1260
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 4: intentionally addictive because there's no market incentive for somebody who's

1261
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 4: addicted to the product to stop using the product. It's

1262
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 4: not a pure free market experiment if you're being becoming

1263
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 4: chemically addicted. And we do have increasing evidence, like do

1264
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 4: I go back and forth on how we treat cigarettes, Yes,

1265
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 4: but like this is arguably more serious because all of

1266
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 4: our politics are being funneled through a platform that functions

1267
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 4: as a giant cigarette ie.

1268
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 3: It's so much worse than that your personal life.

1269
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, yeah, you get addicted to go out

1270
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 4: for a smoking break. Well, guess what, now you're addicted

1271
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 4: because every time you get a call, it could be

1272
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 4: the worst call of your life, it could be the

1273
00:59:58,040 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 4: best call of your life. And so you have an

1274
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 4: INCENTI to keep this on you and to think about

1275
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 4: it mentally. There's research on just how having a phone

1276
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 4: in your vicinity change is the function.

1277
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 3: Of your brain.

1278
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 5: Interesting.

1279
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 4: It's crazy stuff, and we're I think obviously too slow

1280
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 4: to come around on it.

1281
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 5: We're just scratching the service.

1282
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 3: And it gives an.

1283
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 4: Excuse for Republicans and Democrats to put legislation like the

1284
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 4: restrict Act on the table that just gives them more

1285
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 4: surveillance powers. Whenever there's bipartisan agreement on something, there's danger

1286
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 4: for bipartisan corruption. So it's a complicated set of problems

1287
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 4: that we have shown like very little ability to deal with.

1288
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 5: Yes, Indeed, speaking.

1289
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 4: Of complicated problems, let's move on to the next segment.

1290
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 4: Crystal has twisted my arm and forced me to talk

1291
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 4: about there's an excellent report from Mary Margaret Olahan over

1292
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 4: at the Daily Signal that is a publication that is

1293
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 4: run by.

1294
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 3: The Heritage Foundation.

1295
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 4: Mary Margaret, we can put the first element up here,

1296
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 4: that would be E one reports that Fox News employees

1297
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 4: are allowed to use bathrooms that align with their gender

1298
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 4: identity rather than their biological sex, and permitted to dress

1299
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 4: in alignment with their preferred gender.

1300
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 3: She also goes on to.

1301
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 4: Quote a former producer for Tucker Carlson Tonight who says,

1302
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 4: Fox wants you to think it's a place that supports

1303
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 4: traditionally conservative values, but in reality, they're pushing this nonsense

1304
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 4: behind the scenes.

1305
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 3: She also says that they were.

1306
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 4: She mentions that they use preferred pronouns on the website.

1307
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: That's actually in accordance, by the way, with ap style.

1308
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 4: The Associated Press. In their style guide, which most newspapers

1309
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,919
Speaker 4: and publications follow around the country. You know, if your

1310
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 4: Gannett certainly follows it, so your local Gannett paper, Milwaukee

1311
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 4: Journal Sentinel.

1312
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 3: Or wherever it is, they're going to follow ap style guide.

1313
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 4: So every locality in the country was changed by this decision.

1314
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 4: I think it was back in twenty seventeen, like before,

1315
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 4: a lot of the country was on this issue to

1316
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 4: use preferred pronouns, and that applied basically around the country

1317
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 4: for publications and was I think part of where this

1318
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 4: clash came from.

1319
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 3: Now. A source who still works at Fox News told.

1320
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 4: Mary Margaret Olahan the Daily Signal that after Talker Carlson

1321
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 4: Show was canceled in April, producers for the APM Fox

1322
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 4: News Tonight program, we're told not to bash mulvaney. That

1323
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 4: directive came from high level executives, the source said, when

1324
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:07,479
Speaker 4: we're referring to.

1325
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 3: Mulvany, that would be Dylan mulvaney.

1326
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 4: And all of this was unfolding as the bud Lights

1327
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 4: saga was unfolding as well. Regarding Dylan Mulvaney. There's more

1328
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 4: here from Fox's corporate handbook. They're citing the Human Rights

1329
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 4: Campaign and going into the whole like the full gender

1330
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 4: identity and sex are the same thing. And once you

1331
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 4: sort of accept that premise, you go to bathrooms, to

1332
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 4: locker rooms and all kinds of different places, which is

1333
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 4: unusual for Fox News. As people see it now, this

1334
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 4: report circulated really heavily in conservative circles.

1335
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,720
Speaker 3: You know, someone made a really good point.

1336
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 4: I think it was my colleague Edtty Scary made a

1337
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 4: really good point basically that if you do this in

1338
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 4: conservative media, this is giving up one of the biggest

1339
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 4: platforms that you if you if you criticize Fox especially

1340
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 4: with reporting like this, it is it is basic. You're

1341
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,919
Speaker 4: signing a death warrant with Fox, which traditionally has been

1342
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 4: where you reach conservatives. Yeah, like that is the one

1343
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 4: place where you can guarantee you're going to reach a

1344
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 4: huge swath of conservative Republican voters at the same time.

1345
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 3: So it's funny.

1346
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 4: The week before Tucker Carlson got yanked off the air

1347
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 4: on Federalist Radio Hours having a conversation saying, like the

1348
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 4: litmus test for conservative media should be whether or not

1349
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,080
Speaker 4: people are willing to criticize Fox News, like you know

1350
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 4: that you can trust a conservative publication if they're willing

1351
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 4: to be critical Fox News, because that takes a lot

1352
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 4: of guts on the right, because you have a hard

1353
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 4: time reaching people without having that on your platform. And

1354
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 4: it doesn't mean you have to be like overly negative.

1355
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean you have to go after them, but

1356
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 4: you know, and everyone makes mistakes, and so you should

1357
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 4: be willing to say that.

1358
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 3: Indeed, that's a big deal.

1359
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 4: So this report is a really big deal I think

1360
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 4: because conservatives.

1361
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: It gave them, like Mott Walsh, an opportunity.

1362
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 4: He's quoted in the report being like, listen, Fox is

1363
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 4: just like every major media corporation. I had heard revelings

1364
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 4: of all of this stuff for years, Like people had

1365
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 4: been privately griping about that for years, some of those

1366
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 4: for years. So that this suddenly is surfacing post Tucker,

1367
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,959
Speaker 4: as we can put the next element up E two.

1368
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 3: The ratings are cratering in that hour. This is from

1369
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 3: the rap. Since Tucker's surprise ouster from Fox News just

1370
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 3: over three.

1371
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 4: Weeks ago, viewership on the cable news channel has cut

1372
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 4: in half, cut in half, and where are those people going?

1373
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 3: Oddly enough, they're going over to Newsmax.

1374
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 4: Newsmax ratings are up which, again a year ago, would

1375
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 4: be unthinkable that Newsmax is competing with CNN. That they're

1376
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 4: competing with these these giants is fairly remarkable. So this

1377
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 4: is basically a panic type situation for Fox at this point.

1378
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1379
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: So I have also a lot of thoughts about this.

1380
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I have no issue what's itwever with

1381
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,479
Speaker 1: the policy. I think it's appropriate. I think adults should

1382
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: be able to do what they want to do with

1383
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: their lives, and if they have a pronoun they want

1384
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,439
Speaker 1: to use, it's different from the sex they wors at birth.

1385
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: I have no problem with that whatsoever. So my personal views,

1386
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: I think there's a few things here. Number one, this

1387
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 1: clearly seems like somebody aligned with Tucker loves this. This

1388
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: is like, you know, they were leaking some stuff on him.

1389
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: This is like him trying to get revenge.

1390
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 4: So because he's trying to get out of his contract. Remember,

1391
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 4: in order to do his Twitter show, he needs to

1392
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 4: get out of the contract, right, So they're not letting

1393
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 4: him out, and he's saying, you let me out or

1394
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 4: I'm going to blow.

1395
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to embarrass you, I'm gonna blow the place up. Yeah, exactly,

1396
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: exactly right. So I think that's that's probably where this

1397
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: leak comes from, which is interesting in and of itself.

1398
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: Another piece here is that I do think there is

1399
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 1: something there in terms of, you know, Fox News anchors,

1400
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 1: they portray themselves as sharing the values of their mostly

1401
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 1: sort of like heartland conservative viewing base. Meanwhile, these are

1402
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: multimillionaires living in New York and DC.

1403
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 3: They're Manhattan liberals.

1404
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this is you know there there is

1405
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 1: like showmanship going into that on air caricature and the

1406
01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: minute you pull the mask off. I do think that

1407
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 1: that is an issue for Fox if you have widespread

1408
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:08,439
Speaker 1: realization within their viewing audience that like, oh, these people

1409
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: are just putting on a show for me, Like behind

1410
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: the scenes, the way they're actually acting is very different

1411
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 1: from the values they're pretending to support on air. That's

1412
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: another piece of this. The other piece I think in

1413
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: terms of like the freak ount over these particular policies

1414
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 1: is I also think it sort of exposes the lie

1415
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 1: that consertives are just worried about, like we're just worried

1416
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 1: about the kids here with regards to trans issues, because

1417
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 1: we're not talking about kids, we're talking about adult workers.

1418
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:37,200
Speaker 1: In the workplace, wanting to identify. However, they identify and

1419
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: be treated as human beings, and there's a lot of

1420
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: upset over adults. There are no kids involved in this,

1421
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: so I think that part is revelatory as well. But

1422
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, I go back and forth on whether or

1423
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: not Fox has a real issue in terms of like

1424
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: persistently losing audience. I think they're on overall the same

1425
01:06:56,800 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 1: downward trajectory as the other two cable news networks. You

1426
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: have new numbers out about just how many cord cutters

1427
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 1: there are now reaching record heights. So they have a

1428
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: huge like business issue coming down the pike that all

1429
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: of cable news is basically reckoning with right now.

1430
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 5: But in terms of these individual instances.

1431
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 1: What they're betting on is basically, like in one of

1432
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: these reports, somebody out right said this, like our audience

1433
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: is really old and they don't know how to go

1434
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: anywhere else. Like they actually will struggle to like figure

1435
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 1: out where news Max is on the channel, let alone

1436
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 1: go on Twitter to see DeSantis in e laon Musk,

1437
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: or go over the Daily Wire, be able to figure

1438
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: out like this is their habit. They're old, they're set

1439
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: in their ways and so we think we're good. That's

1440
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: their bet, and to be honest with you, I'm not

1441
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: sure that's a crazy bet.

1442
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 3: No.

1443
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, they Fox had a bigger built in hedge than

1444
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 4: a lot of the other cable networks because they had

1445
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 4: a huge like their audience was basically double the size

1446
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:49,480
Speaker 4: their permanent audience.

1447
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 3: But obviously, sadly this is you know.

1448
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 4: It's a blunt way to put it, but it has

1449
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 4: been slowly dying off and that, but that would have

1450
01:07:57,920 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 4: lasted them longer just because it was a bigger kind

1451
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 4: of part minute base than the other cable news networks CNN, MSNBC,

1452
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,160
Speaker 4: who are also actively like infuriating some part of that

1453
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 4: permanent audience.

1454
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,439
Speaker 3: That was fleeing. But that said, you know, you live.

1455
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 4: Outside DC, and it's to me, like there's times when

1456
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 4: things on Fox News just feel like what Nashville does

1457
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 4: to country music, which is like, do people actually behave

1458
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 4: the way that these ridiculous corporate written country songs.

1459
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 3: Right about them?

1460
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 4: No, you have a bunch of dumb ass rich Nashville

1461
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 4: country music executives who put people in a writer's room

1462
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 4: and make them come up with like redneck mad libs

1463
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 4: and wrote it into a song that they put a

1464
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 4: hip hop beat on and it sounds stupid and it's

1465
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 4: exactly what they're do time I do too, I.

1466
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 5: Need to myself a conversation because they're really good.

1467
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 4: They're really good at making like catchy music, but like

1468
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 4: the picture that it that it represents, Like sometimes it's

1469
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 4: like people who have actually no idea what happens in

1470
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 4: rural America and they're just like guessing. They're like, yep,

1471
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 4: Crown Royal in the bed of a Ford pickup and

1472
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:11,599
Speaker 4: everybody's like half naked at the river And does that

1473
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:16,760
Speaker 4: happen sometimes? Yes? Is it an everyday occurrence? No, But

1474
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 4: it's just it's that stuff that drives me insane of

1475
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 4: like you have in at Fox News, like getting people

1476
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 4: at News Corp getting rich off of I think what

1477
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 4: sometimes is this very ham fisted version of red meat conservatism.

1478
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 4: And there have been people at Fox who are very,

1479
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 4: very responsive to their audience and are very good at this,

1480
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 4: and it is I think the last bastion of the

1481
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 4: sort of mainstream so called mainstream that allows conservative voices

1482
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 4: to speak. Like the fact that Glenn Greenwald was on

1483
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:51,360
Speaker 4: Tucker's show is like insane for Fox News and that

1484
01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 4: Tayebi had a platform there and that other people had

1485
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,760
Speaker 4: you could say certain things. I think that's actually fairly remarkable,

1486
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,719
Speaker 4: and I don't think it's a a good thing if

1487
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 4: that goes away entirely for the right, because there's something

1488
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,799
Speaker 4: powerful about that. But at the same time, our people

1489
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 4: being well served, as you know, the executives are just

1490
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 4: cutting those checks getting the money off of them.

1491
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:16,639
Speaker 3: I don't know, and it's sort of something that's always

1492
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 3: bothered me.

1493
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 5: Well.

1494
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that came out to

1495
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: me in the Dominion discovery was a level of contempt

1496
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: from the host towards their own audience, where they felt

1497
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: like they thought a certain way about Sidney Powell about

1498
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: stop the steal about Donald Trump, you know, Tucker saying

1499
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: like he hated him and he's a demonic force and whatever,

1500
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 1: but they didn't feel like their audience could handle that.

1501
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:42,640
Speaker 1: They felt like their audience were like a bunch of

1502
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: rubes that just needed to be like served whatever red

1503
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: meat they needed to be served. And so to me,

1504
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 1: when you're dishonest with your audience, that's sort of like

1505
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: the highest form of contempt. And you know that that

1506
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: did come out in the dominion filings.

1507
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:57,720
Speaker 5: And I think it is.

1508
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: I think there is a potential damage to them from

1509
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,280
Speaker 1: having the mass pulled off and people really starting to

1510
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 1: look at them rather than seeing them as these like

1511
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: authentic voices of conservatism, as people who are getting rich

1512
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: off of them living in Manhattan, living in DC and

1513
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: not really sharing their values, lifestyle or culture. So to me,

1514
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 1: that's you know, do I think that this particular like

1515
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,599
Speaker 1: blow up over the you know, pronoun policy within Fox

1516
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:28,679
Speaker 1: is going to blow over.

1517
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 5: Yes, But the more that.

1518
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 1: You have these pieces add up where it's like, you know,

1519
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,559
Speaker 1: you all are really not what you're representing to us,

1520
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: I think that is kind of an existential issue because

1521
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: in the current media landscape, authenticity is everything feeling like

1522
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: you're getting the real deal from people, feeling like even

1523
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,759
Speaker 1: if you know, maybe you disagree with them on an issue,

1524
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 1: like they're really telling.

1525
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 5: You what they think.

1526
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 1: I think that's like the most valuable commodity and they

1527
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 1: are kind of squandering that.

1528
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 4: So that's interesting because one of the things I picked

1529
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 4: up on from those text messages is.

1530
01:11:58,080 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 3: Sort of the opposite.

1531
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 4: I think I see what you're saying, like the Trump

1532
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 4: thing in particular, does bother me because you see that

1533
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 4: from a lot of people, especially a lot of like

1534
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 4: electric Republicans here in DC, saying one thing publicly about

1535
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 4: Trump and another thing privately. Yeah, actually does bother me

1536
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 4: because they think that their voters can't handle like nuance

1537
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:15,320
Speaker 4: when it comes to Trump.

1538
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:15,759
Speaker 3: Right.

1539
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,760
Speaker 4: But Tucker and I think Laura to some extent Laura

1540
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 4: Ingram were frustrated by Fox News executives who they saw,

1541
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 4: you know, trying to manipulate voters and trying to, you know,

1542
01:12:29,160 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 4: do things that they were uncomfortable with they felt their

1543
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,600
Speaker 4: audience would be uncomfortable with. Tucker was saying it's not

1544
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 4: fair to the audience, and a couple of text messages,

1545
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,759
Speaker 4: and then he also was saying from a purely business perspective,

1546
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:39,759
Speaker 4: it doesn't make sense.

1547
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the thing they were worried about, like

1548
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 1: the ratings and the business and like their the value

1549
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 1: of their stockholdings.

1550
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 5: That's not concern for the audience.

1551
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 1: That's like, you know, again, it's a level of inauthenticity,

1552
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,679
Speaker 1: like this is my bottom line is my bottom line,

1553
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: and this is a problem for me.

1554
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 4: Talker had a couple of times where he said that

1555
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 4: it wasn't it was he was actually saying like our

1556
01:12:57,360 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 4: audience thinks.

1557
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 3: This is bs like blah blah blah, where he was.

1558
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 4: Saying can actually but the motivations clearly their business motivations involved.

1559
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:09,879
Speaker 4: I personally think that Tucker was like very very frustrating,

1560
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:12,480
Speaker 4: just from things that I've heard, was very very frustrated

1561
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 4: with the Fox executive volile and some of that.

1562
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:15,599
Speaker 3: Like leaked out over it.

1563
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 4: And the other thing that I thought was interesting about

1564
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 4: the story to your point about the adults versus kids

1565
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 4: thing before we wrap, is that this is in accordance. Basically,

1566
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 4: the Fox News is aligned with New York City's Human

1567
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 4: Rights law, which a lot of people probably remember was

1568
01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:32,680
Speaker 4: pasted sort of controversially a few years ago. But it

1569
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:36,799
Speaker 4: actually requires employers, as mary market rights to use the names, pronouns,

1570
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 4: and titles with which a person identifies, regardless of their

1571
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 4: biological sex. That is so, in some ways Fox's hands

1572
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 4: are tied, like there's not much they can do. It

1573
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 4: does seem like from the corporate handbook they're enthusiastic about

1574
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 4: these policies and promoting these policies. And that's something that

1575
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 4: I have heard that you know, there are people in

1576
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:57,240
Speaker 4: corporate Fox that have pronouns in their bios et cetera,

1577
01:13:57,280 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 4: et cetera, are in their email signatures, et cetera, et cetera.

1578
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:03,799
Speaker 4: And whether or not that's true, that is really difficult

1579
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 4: because that does compel people to use pronouns that they

1580
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 4: may not be comfortable using, like it's government compelled speech.

1581
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:13,880
Speaker 4: And then it also creates the question of single sex

1582
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:17,200
Speaker 4: spaces and whether women want that and whether that's safe.

1583
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 4: And so I think the adult thing is just goes

1584
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 4: on the table when you have compulsion from the government,

1585
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:27,000
Speaker 4: and that even Fox News had to deal with it

1586
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 4: or chose to deal with it in this way or

1587
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 4: whatever not present a legal challenge or whatever. I think

1588
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 4: is actually kind of an interesting barometer of the country

1589
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 4: right now too.

1590
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1591
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, Liz, honestly, I disagree with your views on

1592
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 1: these issues, but I do think conservatives have tried to,

1593
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 1: at least initially frame their concerns is just about protecting

1594
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,719
Speaker 1: the kids, and oh it's very clear, yeah, very clear

1595
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 1: that that is not the case. That they also are

1596
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:55,280
Speaker 1: worried about adults who are living their lives and want

1597
01:14:55,360 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: to transition. And we've already seen legislation and talking about

1598
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, state compulsion. Are you've seen legislation coming in

1599
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: that's impacting adults in their ability to make choices. So

1600
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: that was, you know, one piece that I thought was

1601
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: reflected here as like, oh, this has nothing to do

1602
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: with kids, and yet there's a lot of upset over it.

1603
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1604
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 3: No, I think that's a totally fair point.

1605
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 1: So I've got some happy news for all of you,

1606
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:20,760
Speaker 1: a few different pieces of this with regards to the

1607
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: labor movement. Let's start with the big corporate behemoth Amazon.

1608
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 1: Let's put this up on the screen from the New

1609
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,719
Speaker 1: York Times. They have a new report about how, even

1610
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 1: in places where they don't have unions, Amazon workers have

1611
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,679
Speaker 1: really found effective ways to garner concessions from this company.

1612
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: And basically what's happened here is because Amazon has become

1613
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 1: so large, and because they have taken on so much

1614
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:49,280
Speaker 1: of the delivering of their products themselves, they have these

1615
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:53,799
Speaker 1: critical choke point locations where even a few dozen workers

1616
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:57,760
Speaker 1: taking collective action can really hobble them and hobble their

1617
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 1: ability to deliver goods in the timely. That was part

1618
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:03,840
Speaker 1: of their core promise. So within this report, I'll just

1619
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,400
Speaker 1: tell you they've got a few examples here where workers

1620
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:08,759
Speaker 1: have really effectively sort of pushed back on the company.

1621
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:11,759
Speaker 1: They say, in September twenty nineteen, workers at an Amazon

1622
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: delivery station in Sacramento began campaigning for paid personal time off,

1623
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 1: and they were able to actually gain those benefits through

1624
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: this sort of collective action. You had walkouts overpay and

1625
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 1: working conditions at two Chicago delivery stations just before Christmas.

1626
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:31,800
Speaker 1: They then received raises of about two dollars an hour.

1627
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: They also point to a situation where Amazon had suspended

1628
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 1: a San Bernardino Air Hub employee named Sarah, and suspicion

1629
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 1: is because of her union organizing and advocacy. The next week,

1630
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: workers wore hello, my name is stickers and they wrote

1631
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: on it where is Sarah? And lo and behold, Sarah

1632
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 1: was reinstated. Now, if you know anything about Amazon and

1633
01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 1: they were the way they treated Christian Smalls and other

1634
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: Amazon workers who were also union organizers, you will recognize

1635
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 1: how extraordinary it is that the company was actually forced

1636
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: to bring her back to work and reinstate her because

1637
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:09,479
Speaker 1: of her co worker's upset. They also mentioned here location

1638
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 1: in Kentucky and Northern Kentucky, sort of near Cincinnati. That

1639
01:17:13,000 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 1: has become their primary delivery hub in the entire country,

1640
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,680
Speaker 1: really really critical to their operations, and you have a

1641
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:23,639
Speaker 1: lot of union organizing activity there and potential for this

1642
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: sort of choke point organizing that can gain concessions, additional

1643
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 1: pay raises, you know, paid time off, and these sorts

1644
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: of things which you know, you think in the abstract,

1645
01:17:34,160 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 1: you've got this giant, multi billion dollar global corporation, and

1646
01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,799
Speaker 1: then you've got these workers. You know, even at one location,

1647
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:46,080
Speaker 1: they make up a tiny sliver of the overall Amazon workforce.

1648
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 1: But when you have critical functions at some of these locations,

1649
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: these critical choke points actually provide a mechanism of very

1650
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,720
Speaker 1: effective organizing. One thing they point to you here that

1651
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting in light of this is

1652
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: there was a very famous strike back in nineteen thirty six,

1653
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: it's called a sit down strike in Flint that forced GM,

1654
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,200
Speaker 1: which has been very had been very anti union, to

1655
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: recognize United Auto Workers because the workers chose to do

1656
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: this sit down strike at a plant that was called

1657
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,520
Speaker 1: a mother plant. It was the only location that manufactured

1658
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,720
Speaker 1: some of the parts for GM, so it was so

1659
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: affected gmsh we got a cave like we got no choice.

1660
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:24,599
Speaker 1: This is the only place where we make these certain parts.

1661
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:27,960
Speaker 1: But after that they learned their lesson and they then

1662
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 1: distributed all of their parts production across a lot of locations.

1663
01:18:32,080 --> 01:18:35,559
Speaker 1: Amazon has gone in the opposite direction of consolidating a

1664
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,439
Speaker 1: lot of functions at these critical hubs, and that's what's

1665
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 1: making them vulnerable to these choke point to this choke

1666
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:42,280
Speaker 1: point organizing.

1667
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:43,639
Speaker 5: So that was the main piece.

1668
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: There are a couple of other stories that I just wanted

1669
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:50,200
Speaker 1: to highlight. There was a successful effort to unionize bus

1670
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:51,640
Speaker 1: makers down.

1671
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 5: In Georgia and rural Georgia.

1672
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 1: Put this next piece up on the screen. So this

1673
01:18:56,040 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 1: is a bluebird. They make a lot of school buses

1674
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 1: and they voted overwhelmingly this workforce s ninety seven to

1675
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 1: four to thirty five to organize with the United steel Workers.

1676
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 1: One thing that was really interesting to me about this

1677
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 1: is part of why these workers were able to succeed

1678
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 1: even in a very anti union state in Georgia, even

1679
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 1: in a rural area where there may not be a

1680
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:22,879
Speaker 1: lot of other employment, is because within Joe Biden's Inflation

1681
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: Reduction Act, they actually had provisions saying, if you're going

1682
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:29,080
Speaker 1: to benefit from these tax credits, you're not allowed to

1683
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: use the money to do anti union organizing, so they

1684
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:35,720
Speaker 1: didn't have those captive audience meetings. They say you have

1685
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: to remain neutral in any organizing campaign, and so that

1686
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 1: helped to tilt the scales a little bit and potentially

1687
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: contributed to this success for the United steel Workers. And

1688
01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 1: then the last piece here is in Minnesota. You know,

1689
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 1: the conservative laws that are getting passed in states across

1690
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:53,840
Speaker 1: the country have gotten a lot of attention, but in

1691
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: the wake of the last midterms, you actually have more

1692
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: states that have democratic trifectas. You had Democrats take back

1693
01:20:00,320 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 1: in a lot of places in terms of state legislators,

1694
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,719
Speaker 1: and in Minnesota they are really pushing the ball forward

1695
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 1: on labor rights. In particular, You've got a new measure

1696
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,679
Speaker 1: that mass pass that mandates paid sick days for nearly

1697
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 1: all workers. It forbids non compete agreements in labor contracts,

1698
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:18,599
Speaker 1: something the federal government's been looking at as well. It

1699
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 1: establishes I thought this was the most interesting part. A

1700
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 1: sectoral bargaining system for nursing homes allows teachers to negotiate

1701
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:29,600
Speaker 1: class sizes and bans those captive audience meetings where employers

1702
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: forced their workers to listen to anti union propaganda. So,

1703
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: you know, we had a lot of excitement last year

1704
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 1: about strike waves, about Amazon, victory, about Starbucks, grassroots movement.

1705
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 1: Some of that has felt like it's sload. We also

1706
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:44,880
Speaker 1: got the numbers at the end of the year that

1707
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 1: were like ah, in spite of these exciting waves, we

1708
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 1: still want backwards in terms of union density and the

1709
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 1: number of workers that are in unions as a percentage

1710
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: of the total working population. But I think these small

1711
01:20:56,720 --> 01:20:59,720
Speaker 1: shifts actually pretend something really positive. And Emily, we also

1712
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: see in terms of public opinion, Emily, what are you

1713
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:06,280
Speaker 1: looking at all?

1714
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,679
Speaker 4: Right, We're going to be talking about something very niche

1715
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:11,360
Speaker 4: section seven oh two.

1716
01:21:11,720 --> 01:21:12,519
Speaker 5: I'm excited, you know.

1717
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 3: Section seven h.

1718
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:16,160
Speaker 4: Two is something that the American left is very familiar

1719
01:21:16,240 --> 01:21:18,280
Speaker 4: with and has been very familiar with for a long

1720
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 4: time because it's something that came out of the Snowden revelations.

1721
01:21:22,200 --> 01:21:24,360
Speaker 3: And it's an interesting story.

1722
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 4: Because just this week I saw a headline and we

1723
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 4: can put this up on the screen.

1724
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 3: This is E one.

1725
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 4: This is from the Associated Press Meta find record one

1726
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 4: point three billion dollars in order to stop sending European

1727
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:37,759
Speaker 4: user data to the US.

1728
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:39,640
Speaker 3: What does that sound like.

1729
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 4: It sounds a little bit like America's complaints about TikTok,

1730
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,719
Speaker 4: doesn't it those questions about how user data is sent

1731
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:48,799
Speaker 4: back to Beijing.

1732
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 3: Now, of course, in this situation it's a little bit

1733
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:55,759
Speaker 3: different because we're generally allied with the European Union.

1734
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 4: But it raises a really interesting question about American exports.

1735
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 4: And obviously, I think to people who have concerns, you

1736
01:22:02,439 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 4: know Section seven oh two. As much as it's been

1737
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:06,920
Speaker 4: an issue on the left because of Snowden, there are

1738
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 4: a lot of libertarians on the right that have followed

1739
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,519
Speaker 4: Section seven oh two for years very closely as well.

1740
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 4: But to flesh out this AP story a little bit,

1741
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:18,320
Speaker 4: they're reporting that the EU slapped Meta with a record

1742
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 4: one point three billion dollars one point three billion dollars

1743
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,320
Speaker 4: as a privacy fine on Monday and ordered it to

1744
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:30,080
Speaker 4: stop transferring users' personal information across the Atlantic by October.

1745
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 4: The Associated Press describes this as the latest salvo in

1746
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 4: a decade long case sparked by US cyber snooping fears. Now,

1747
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 4: when you see in the United States these complaints about TikTok,

1748
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:45,120
Speaker 4: which by the way, I think are entirely legitimate that

1749
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 4: you have just a truly astounding amount of data on

1750
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 4: children in some cases that will follow them their entire

1751
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 4: lives being sucked up and then accessible. Even with Project Texas,

1752
01:22:56,439 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 4: that's TikTok's plan to transfer American data to Oracle's cloud server,

1753
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,400
Speaker 4: they still concede that people in Beijing will have access

1754
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 4: to that data. We know thanks to Forbes reporting that

1755
01:23:07,520 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 4: people in Beijing, in the headquarters there there are members

1756
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:13,080
Speaker 4: of the Chinese Communist Party, former members of state media

1757
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:13,720
Speaker 4: that work there.

1758
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:16,360
Speaker 3: So these concerns are very legitimate.

1759
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,719
Speaker 4: But you can understand why one, people in the United

1760
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:23,880
Speaker 4: States are concerned about how their own data is being

1761
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 4: used by their own government, let alone how American companies

1762
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:32,280
Speaker 4: that export that business model of surveillance capitalism that we

1763
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:35,720
Speaker 4: pioneered here in the United States over to other countries

1764
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,080
Speaker 4: in Europe. You can understand why those countries in Europe,

1765
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 4: even though we're generally allied with the EU, would have

1766
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:44,120
Speaker 4: problems with it, because even we have problems with it,

1767
01:23:44,160 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 4: and we should here in the United States now Section

1768
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 4: seven h two To be clear, if you're not familiar

1769
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 4: with it, it's one of those very, very very broad

1770
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 4: powers that was delegated to the surveillance state. Basically, I

1771
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:58,760
Speaker 4: think it dates back to two thousand and eight. I

1772
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,840
Speaker 4: have it right here in front of me. Yeah, it

1773
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 4: dates back to two thousand and eight, and it allows

1774
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:08,639
Speaker 4: the federal government basically to tap into a huge amount

1775
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 4: of data that comes from these things.

1776
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 3: So that's yeah.

1777
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:16,519
Speaker 4: Section it's actually part of the Foreigner Intelligence Surveillance Act.

1778
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:19,479
Speaker 4: It lets the NSA, this is from Fox News intercept

1779
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 4: communications of foreign terrorist or espionage suspects that pass through

1780
01:24:22,680 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 4: US telecom and internet companies. But the tool also vacuums

1781
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 4: up data about American citizens living in the US, for instance,

1782
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 4: when they communicate with people overseas. And just actually recently

1783
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 4: we learned it's amazing we recently learned the timing here

1784
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:41,920
Speaker 4: that the FBI used Section seven two to spy on

1785
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:46,639
Speaker 4: they were searching for information about defendants in the January

1786
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 4: sixth attack and then also on the twenty twenty George

1787
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:52,760
Speaker 4: Floyd protests, and so this is actually they found a

1788
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 4: truly insane amount of abuse. I think it was an

1789
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,719
Speaker 4: Inspector general who found a truly insane amount of abuse

1790
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,840
Speaker 4: on the the platform. And so you have conservatives now

1791
01:25:04,320 --> 01:25:07,439
Speaker 4: mobilizing against Section seven oh two. The left has people

1792
01:25:07,479 --> 01:25:10,120
Speaker 4: like Ron Wyden have always been against Section seven oh two,

1793
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 4: And to just put an emphasis on how crazy this

1794
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:16,480
Speaker 4: timing is. Section seven oh two is up for reauthorization

1795
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:20,760
Speaker 4: this year. Its mandate expires on December thirty first, So

1796
01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 4: have you as you have all of these Republican concerns

1797
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,879
Speaker 4: about the surveillance state being used to target, for instance,

1798
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 4: people who were at the protest part of January sixth

1799
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:34,599
Speaker 4: outside the Capitol, didn't go in, didn't trespass, even so,

1800
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 4: as you have concerns about that from Republicans, concerns from

1801
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 4: Democrats again reasonable stuff about people who were protesting in

1802
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:44,519
Speaker 4: twenty twenty and weren't involved in any violence. But we're

1803
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,519
Speaker 4: being spied on based on a law that's just supposed

1804
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 4: to be used on when you have a legitimate reason

1805
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:55,120
Speaker 4: to be overseeing communications with somebody in another country, not

1806
01:25:55,160 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 4: an American citizen. When you have that and you have

1807
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:02,160
Speaker 4: cooperation from companies like Meta, when you have cooperation from

1808
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,840
Speaker 4: companies like Twitter, who knows what Elon Musk would be

1809
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:08,519
Speaker 4: doing with Section seven oh two, that becomes a huge

1810
01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 4: problem for both political parties. And what I just want

1811
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:13,559
Speaker 4: to say here is that Republicans have all the incentive

1812
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 4: in the world politically and ideologically right now to get

1813
01:26:16,200 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 4: on the right side of the surveillance capitalism question, because

1814
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:24,080
Speaker 4: we are exporting a product that is invading people's privacy

1815
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:28,400
Speaker 4: to other countries, and we're using it to create a

1816
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 4: wildly out of control, vast security state not just on

1817
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,360
Speaker 4: Americans but in people in other countries. And the real

1818
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:40,640
Speaker 4: motivation here that should get those Republicans on board is

1819
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 4: that one point eight billion dollar fine or one point

1820
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 4: three I think it is billion dollar fine, because if

1821
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 4: there's anything that can get Republicans on board with ending

1822
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:54,880
Speaker 4: surveillance capitalism, it would maybe be the capitalism.

1823
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,720
Speaker 3: Part of this. When does it start hurting American businesses?

1824
01:26:58,320 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 3: Because you know, we can put E two.

1825
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:02,479
Speaker 4: This is the Fox News article that talks about the

1826
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:04,840
Speaker 4: political concerns with Section seven oh two.

1827
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 3: Again, that's from this week.

1828
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:10,720
Speaker 4: The timing here is so perfect because of the excess

1829
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 4: spying that Yeah, so this is the FBI that tracked

1830
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:17,880
Speaker 4: a truly insane amount of abuse of the program two

1831
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:20,880
Speaker 4: hundred and seventy eight thousand violations in twenty twenty and

1832
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:22,080
Speaker 4: early twenty twenty one.

1833
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:22,960
Speaker 3: By the FBI.

1834
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,839
Speaker 4: They're supposed to follow particular procedures that were not followed

1835
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 4: when they start spying on people. Two hundred and seventy

1836
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 4: eight thousand violations. Two hundred and seventy eight thousand, I mean,

1837
01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:36,080
Speaker 4: just an astounding level of abuse.

1838
01:27:36,439 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 3: So you have that, But also we put E three up.

1839
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 4: This is the real thing that maybe this can entice Republicans.

1840
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,799
Speaker 4: This is a graph that shows it might be listed

1841
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:49,639
Speaker 4: as F three. But this is a graph that shows

1842
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:53,000
Speaker 4: the tech industry in the US as the percentage of GDP.

1843
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 4: So it's about ten percent of our economy right now.

1844
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 4: It's a huge swath of our economy and only growing.

1845
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:03,560
Speaker 4: So as tech and data becomes the chief American export

1846
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:06,559
Speaker 4: at this point, as it becomes such a huge American export,

1847
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 4: and that American export is threatened because other countries actually,

1848
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 4: you know, are concerned about their citizens privacy, that will

1849
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:16,760
Speaker 4: come into conflict with the capitalism question. And the one

1850
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:18,640
Speaker 4: thing that I'll end on is that it also was

1851
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:21,680
Speaker 4: going to come into conflict with people in the EU.

1852
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 4: Tayabi Matt Tavy had a great report this week about

1853
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:29,519
Speaker 4: AVERU on his Racket News about how Australia was trying

1854
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 4: to use I think it was Twitter at the time

1855
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 4: to oversee communications by people in the service of like

1856
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,840
Speaker 4: cracking down on vaccine disinformation. We know that people in

1857
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 4: the EU, the sort of Davos set here in the

1858
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 4: United States and the European Union and all across the West,

1859
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 4: want to use these capitalist products as surveillance tools. But

1860
01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 4: they also have really tight privacy laws and in tightening

1861
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:54,719
Speaker 4: privacy laws. So all of this is coming into conflict,

1862
01:28:54,840 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 4: and with Section seven h two up for reauthorization this year,

1863
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:01,559
Speaker 4: and fresh information about how how widely abused it has

1864
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:04,400
Speaker 4: been against both the right and the left, on top

1865
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 4: of this fine, we see a lot of different interests

1866
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 4: coming into conflict, and it makes it right for Republicans to.

1867
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 3: Get on the right side of the debate.

1868
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:13,040
Speaker 4: I'm never optimistic about any of this, but if anything

1869
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:15,680
Speaker 4: could do at Crystal, I think maybe it's that one

1870
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 4: point three billion dollar fine.

1871
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, is that the best help. We're joined now by

1872
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:23,719
Speaker 3: Nick Terurse.

1873
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 4: He's a contributing writer over at The Intercept and also

1874
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:28,880
Speaker 4: the author of the book Kill Anything That Moves The

1875
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 4: Real American War in Vietnam.

1876
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 3: Nick, thank you for joining us.

1877
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me on.

1878
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:37,640
Speaker 4: Nick is the author of a stunning but not surprising

1879
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:40,839
Speaker 4: new series of reports over in the intercept about Henry

1880
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:45,000
Speaker 4: Kissinger and Vietnam. Again I say stunning but not surprising,

1881
01:29:45,120 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 4: is called Kissinger's Killing Fields. This is based on new

1882
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 4: information and that's one of the most I think interesting

1883
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 4: aspects of it. We think we basically know everything about

1884
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:55,800
Speaker 4: what happened at that time, and we think that is

1885
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:59,680
Speaker 4: bad enough, but it actually continues to get worse. So

1886
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:02,240
Speaker 4: I want to start just by asking you what are

1887
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 4: some of the most important new information that you learned

1888
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:07,200
Speaker 4: over the course of this reporting.

1889
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,640
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me on. I think the key takeaways

1890
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:14,800
Speaker 6: here that Kissinger is responsible for more civilian deaths in

1891
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 6: Cambodia than was previously known. And this is according to

1892
01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 6: an exclusive archive of US military documents that I assembled

1893
01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:31,400
Speaker 6: and also interviews with seventy five Cambodian witnesses and survivors

1894
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:35,360
Speaker 6: of these attacks. This archive that I put together offers

1895
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 6: previously unpublished, unreported, and also unappreciated evidence of hundreds of

1896
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 6: civilian casualties that were kept secret during the US war

1897
01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:49,839
Speaker 6: in Cambodia during the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies

1898
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:54,080
Speaker 6: and remain almost entirely unknown to be American peutable today.

1899
01:30:56,080 --> 01:31:02,400
Speaker 6: Talking with these seventy five Cambodian witnesses survivors, I learned

1900
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:06,559
Speaker 6: about new details of a long term trauma that's born

1901
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 6: by survivors of the American war there and taken altogether,

1902
01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 6: this adds the list of killings and crimes that Henry

1903
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:19,360
Speaker 6: Kissinger should, even at this late date in his life,

1904
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:21,639
Speaker 6: be asked to answer for Well, let's.

1905
01:31:21,520 --> 01:31:24,080
Speaker 1: Pick up with that, just give people a little bit

1906
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,040
Speaker 1: of a history lesson of what we were even doing

1907
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:28,519
Speaker 1: in Cambodia.

1908
01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:28,799
Speaker 5: In the first place.

1909
01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:33,639
Speaker 1: And to your point about Henry Kissinger's involvement here, why

1910
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 1: is this still relevant today?

1911
01:31:37,040 --> 01:31:42,960
Speaker 6: Basically, Richard Nixon was elected took office as president in

1912
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:48,240
Speaker 6: nineteen sixty nine, promising to end the Vietnam War, to

1913
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 6: achieve peace with honor, as he put it. But really

1914
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:58,200
Speaker 6: what Kissinger did and what Nixon did, and Kissinger was

1915
01:31:58,240 --> 01:32:01,479
Speaker 6: really the architect of the war policy there was to

1916
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:06,639
Speaker 6: expand the Vietnam War into Laos further than it had been,

1917
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:13,840
Speaker 6: but also notably to Cambodia. Kissinger came up with a plan,

1918
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:19,400
Speaker 6: engineered a secret bombing of Cambodia. Ironically, the secret bombing

1919
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:22,880
Speaker 6: is the one that we've known about for decades. A

1920
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:27,640
Speaker 6: tremendous amount of ordinance dropped on Cambodia that destabilized that

1921
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:33,200
Speaker 6: country and eventually ushered in the Khmer Rouge and a

1922
01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:38,000
Speaker 6: genocide that followed. But you know, my reporting shows that

1923
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 6: there were other attacks that haven't had previously been brought

1924
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 6: to light that also retavock on Cambodia and killed the

1925
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 6: tremendous number of civilians. So there was a secret plan

1926
01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:55,440
Speaker 6: to end the Vietnam War, and really it just expanded

1927
01:32:55,479 --> 01:32:57,639
Speaker 6: the war and expanded the killing.

1928
01:32:57,760 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, and just to get to the title of the series,

1929
01:32:59,400 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 4: Kissinger's Killing Fields. You have transcripts of his calls as

1930
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 4: part of one of the series. As an article on

1931
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,480
Speaker 4: some of his calls that you say reveal his calpability.

1932
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:11,240
Speaker 3: It's helpful to kind of, I think.

1933
01:33:11,200 --> 01:33:15,000
Speaker 4: Nail down exactly why this is pinned to Kissinger himself.

1934
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:16,439
Speaker 4: You just explained some of it, but could you get

1935
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:19,280
Speaker 4: into a little bit about what we know when it

1936
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 4: comes to how Kissinger himself is the architect of this

1937
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 4: death and destruction.

1938
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 6: Definitely, Kissinger had a really hands on role here. He

1939
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:32,479
Speaker 6: was the national security advisor for Richard Nixon, and there

1940
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:36,320
Speaker 6: hasn't been a national security advisor before or since that's

1941
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 6: had the type of sway that he had. He was

1942
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:44,360
Speaker 6: really co president in a way for a policy war

1943
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:52,880
Speaker 6: policy in Southeast Asia. Kissinger actually picked targets for bombings.

1944
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,680
Speaker 6: The secret bombing that was carried out. There would be

1945
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:00,599
Speaker 6: a kernel from the Pentagon who came to Kissinger office.

1946
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:04,519
Speaker 6: They would look at maps. Kissinger would point to different

1947
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 6: sites and say bomb here, bomb there. So I mean

1948
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:12,520
Speaker 6: very hands on in that regard. And you mentioned there's

1949
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:16,280
Speaker 6: a sidebar article that I wrote about Kissinger had a

1950
01:34:16,280 --> 01:34:20,679
Speaker 6: taping system, not unlike his boss Richard Nixon, and the

1951
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 6: transcripts of these calls you can see Nixon calling up

1952
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:29,840
Speaker 6: a Kissinger in one instance in a rage, saying that

1953
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 6: he wanted anything that flies to hit anything that moves

1954
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:38,559
Speaker 6: in Cambodia, and Kissinger getting off the phone and relaying

1955
01:34:38,560 --> 01:34:42,640
Speaker 6: this order to his military deputy. And you know, I

1956
01:34:42,720 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 6: was able to match this up to show palpable effects

1957
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:50,920
Speaker 6: out in the field. After that order came down, the

1958
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:56,840
Speaker 6: strikes on Cambodia increased threefold over the next several weeks,

1959
01:34:57,520 --> 01:35:03,760
Speaker 6: and I chronicle hacks on villages by US helicopter gunships

1960
01:35:03,760 --> 01:35:06,839
Speaker 6: that resulted after this. So you can see a direct

1961
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 6: line from Kissinger's office in the White House to villages

1962
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:15,599
Speaker 6: in Cambodia nine thousand miles away, and there's a clear

1963
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:18,120
Speaker 6: line of death and destruction between the two.

1964
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,440
Speaker 1: Nick, you talk about how when you went and interviewed

1965
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 1: people in Cambodia who lost relatives, loved ones, are still

1966
01:35:26,400 --> 01:35:28,479
Speaker 1: dealing with this trauma, that they were sort of shocked

1967
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:30,559
Speaker 1: that there was an American that even knew about it,

1968
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:32,400
Speaker 1: that cared about it, that cared enough to come and

1969
01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 1: interview them and write a whole series on what you

1970
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:40,719
Speaker 1: were able to uncover. What does it say about the US?

1971
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:43,120
Speaker 1: What does it say about our current foreign policy? What

1972
01:35:43,120 --> 01:35:45,000
Speaker 1: does it say about our inability to reckon with the

1973
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:51,080
Speaker 1: past that to this day Henry Kissinger is feted, sought after,

1974
01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:54,960
Speaker 1: looked at, looked at as this sort of sage advisor

1975
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 1: on foreign policy.

1976
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I was always umbled by the response

1977
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:08,720
Speaker 6: of my Cambodian interviewees there and uh and that the

1978
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 6: trauma that they experience was it was palpable. And the

1979
01:36:13,320 --> 01:36:18,280
Speaker 6: interviews and the documents really demonstrate a consistent disregard for

1980
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 6: Cambodian lives, a failure to detect and protect civilians, UH,

1981
01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 6: to conduct post strike assessments, UH, to investigate civilian harm allegations,

1982
01:36:29,160 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 6: to prevent such damage from reoccurring, and to punish or

1983
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 6: hold accountable US personnel from the field all the way

1984
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:39,880
Speaker 6: up to the White House. And I think these policies

1985
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 6: not only obscured the true toll of the conflict in Cambodia,

1986
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:47,120
Speaker 6: but they set the stage for the civilian carnage of

1987
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 6: the US War on Terror from Afghanistan into a Rock,

1988
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:56,639
Speaker 6: Syria to Somalia and beyond. You know, this, this legacy,

1989
01:36:56,680 --> 01:36:59,759
Speaker 6: I think is something that we're dealing with today. And

1990
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 6: the Pentagon has always been reticent to look backward and

1991
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:09,760
Speaker 6: holds its people to account. You know, just just last year,

1992
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 6: the Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, was asked about attacks

1993
01:37:16,160 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 6: in the Forever Wars, if the United States would would

1994
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 6: look back and and try and you know, take accountability

1995
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:31,360
Speaker 6: for strikes that we know that have happened that they've

1996
01:37:31,400 --> 01:37:35,400
Speaker 6: they've never done anything about as far as accountability or compensation,

1997
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:38,680
Speaker 6: And he said there were there was there was no

1998
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:42,680
Speaker 6: plan to do that, and if there's no plan for that,

1999
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,400
Speaker 6: you know, the possibility that the Pentagon will investigate these

2000
01:37:47,000 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 6: crimes is fifty years later is pretty much nil.

2001
01:37:51,360 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 4: I'm really fascinated by how little we knew at the

2002
01:37:54,240 --> 01:37:56,920
Speaker 4: time of what was going on and how much we

2003
01:37:57,040 --> 01:37:59,200
Speaker 4: continue to learn about it, because i think it speaks

2004
01:37:59,240 --> 01:38:02,640
Speaker 4: to how that the sort of Pentagon has taken that

2005
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:04,720
Speaker 4: as a permission slip to continue acting that way. As

2006
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 4: you say, Nick, that it extends into Afghanistan or wars

2007
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,880
Speaker 4: in the Middle East. So that's my question here, is

2008
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 4: just the intentional or strategic targeting of villages as you're

2009
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:21,440
Speaker 4: writ about in particular, Nick Long. I'm probably saying that incorrectly,

2010
01:38:22,120 --> 01:38:26,160
Speaker 4: but that learning more about that, I think tells us

2011
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:30,679
Speaker 4: a lot about where the strategy comes from and why

2012
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,280
Speaker 4: it continued to happen. So as we wrap up here,

2013
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:34,720
Speaker 4: could you just tell us a little bit about what

2014
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:37,759
Speaker 4: you learned in that particular instance and how it speaks

2015
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:41,160
Speaker 4: to perhaps a broader strategy that continued on afterwards.

2016
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:47,360
Speaker 6: Particularly in nik Long. This was an accidental bombing that

2017
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:52,680
Speaker 6: occurred in nineteen seventy three through sheer carelessness and disregard

2018
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:56,840
Speaker 6: a full bobbload from a B fifty two Strata Fortress

2019
01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:02,200
Speaker 6: thirty thirty tons of high explosives opt on this Cambodian town.

2020
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 6: It was reported that at the time, it was known

2021
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:10,360
Speaker 6: that hundreds were killed or wounded, and the US actually

2022
01:39:10,400 --> 01:39:15,320
Speaker 6: made a restitution, but that wasn't the whole story. I

2023
01:39:15,479 --> 01:39:19,800
Speaker 6: found State Department documents that show that the US knew

2024
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 6: it had killed and wounded about double the number of

2025
01:39:23,200 --> 01:39:27,080
Speaker 6: Cambodians as was publicly announced, but they covered it up

2026
01:39:27,640 --> 01:39:32,000
Speaker 6: and they kept it secret until now. The US also

2027
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:36,880
Speaker 6: announced that they had paid out four hundred dollars to victims' families.

2028
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 6: It wasn't a lot a few years salary, and these

2029
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:46,920
Speaker 6: were often families who lost their sole breadwinner, so you know,

2030
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 6: a few years wasn't going to make a huge impact.

2031
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,720
Speaker 6: But the documents that I found show that the US

2032
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 6: didn't even pay out that paltry sum. They paid out

2033
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 6: only about half, about two hundred and fifteen dollars. But again,

2034
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:04,760
Speaker 6: they have this secret, and they acknowledged it and said

2035
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 6: that we shouldn't release these figures. We should just let

2036
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 6: the press coverage go with the original story. So you know,

2037
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,960
Speaker 6: again you can see this this lack of accountability and

2038
01:40:18,320 --> 01:40:21,080
Speaker 6: the inability to hold the Pentagon accountable at the time,

2039
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:23,360
Speaker 6: and I think, you know, we can we can see

2040
01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:26,720
Speaker 6: this extend, as I said, to the present day. They've

2041
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 6: been able to get away with it for decades, and

2042
01:40:30,120 --> 01:40:33,400
Speaker 6: until they're held to account, I think they'll continue with

2043
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:40,200
Speaker 6: the same line of obscuring the true costs of our wars.

2044
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that is really well said. I very

2045
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:46,320
Speaker 1: much encourage people to read through the whole report exactly

2046
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:47,880
Speaker 1: for the reason that you're stating. If there is no

2047
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:50,519
Speaker 1: accountability for those past crimes, that are just going to continue.

2048
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 1: We see it in for example, the withdrawal from Afghanistan,

2049
01:40:53,520 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 1: just going to thrown strike and aid workers has pretended

2050
01:40:56,520 --> 01:40:58,600
Speaker 1: to pretend, you know, tried to pretend he was isis K,

2051
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:02,760
Speaker 1: even after reporters uncovered that they blew up this man

2052
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,880
Speaker 1: and his whole family that were completely innocent. Was there

2053
01:41:05,880 --> 01:41:09,080
Speaker 1: any accountability for that, No, it was just oops are

2054
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 1: bad moving forward. So thank you so much for your

2055
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 1: work and reporting on this, and thank you so much

2056
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:14,639
Speaker 1: also for your time today.

2057
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:16,639
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

2058
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:17,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's our pleasure.

2059
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:19,760
Speaker 4: You can read nixt story in the intercept you can

2060
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 4: also go get his book kill anything.

2061
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:23,839
Speaker 3: That moves Crystal.

2062
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:25,920
Speaker 4: Kind of a somber note to end the show on,

2063
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:28,000
Speaker 4: but a really important one for the reason you just said,

2064
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:32,599
Speaker 4: this just happened. The strategy is, you know, don't ask permission,

2065
01:41:32,760 --> 01:41:34,640
Speaker 4: ask forgiveness, but then they just don't even do the

2066
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 4: ask forgiveness part because they cover it up and don't

2067
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:39,120
Speaker 4: pay out when they're supposed to.

2068
01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:42,880
Speaker 1: Yep, that's exactly right, Emily. Thank you for having me today.

2069
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 3: Thank you for being here. Actually, Crystal, you're going to

2070
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 3: be back next week.

2071
01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:48,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're stuck with me again next week. So Ryan

2072
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:50,599
Speaker 1: and I being parents, both have all this like end

2073
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:52,800
Speaker 1: of school year stuff going on, so I think he's

2074
01:41:52,840 --> 01:41:54,320
Speaker 1: got some of that to take care of next week.

2075
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:57,800
Speaker 1: So I'll be doing breaking points and counterpoints next week,

2076
01:41:57,880 --> 01:41:58,559
Speaker 1: so full week for me.

2077
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:01,479
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to it. We'll see everybody back here

2078
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:03,719
Speaker 4: next Wednesday. And Crystal, we'll see you what tomorrow?

2079
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:06,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, there, you're.

2080
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:06,639
Speaker 3: Gonna get a lot of Crystal.

2081
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:09,680
Speaker 5: That line would rob my head around that. Yes, I

2082
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:10,679
Speaker 5: will be back here tomorrow.

2083
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 3: All right, We'll see you then,