1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius x M Triumph 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. There are now eight members of 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: a religious paramilitary sect under arrest in civil accounty, the 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: center of multiple child of his investigations. According to court documents, 5 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: former members of the groups say they were taught to 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: take the children into hiding if police ever showed up 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: at the commune. During that raid, law enforcement found eleven children, 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: many without BERTH certificates. One of the group's leaders, Deborah Green, 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: and her son in law, Peter Green, were arrested for 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: the sexual assault of the same five year old girl. 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Stacy Miller's accused of not taking her twelve year old 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: son to the doctor. He eventually died of the flu 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: and the children are being questioned right now by an 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: FBI investigator. A military style Christian sect leader. Let me 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: rephrase that, a military style so called Christian sect leader 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: is charged in a massive child sex abuse case. For 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: I remembers say they have been trying to expose it 18 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: for years, but nobody would listen. And it's happening right 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: in our backyard, in our country. A military style so 20 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: called Christian sect, massive child abuse, massive child sex abuse 21 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: where people have been trying to report it for years 22 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: and no one would do anything. Well, we're gonna do 23 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: something right now. This is crime stories. I mean, see Grace, 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. When I read about 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: an incident like this, I think maybe of um Jim 26 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: Jones on some far away island that I know very 27 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: little about, where people assume a bunch of kuks decided 28 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: to kill themselves under duress from some cult leader. Yeah, 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: it's easy to think about it that way. Easy er 30 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: to think about it because it's not you, it's not 31 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: your sister, it's not your daughter. It's easier to think 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: about it like that because it seems far away and 33 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 1: distant and completely disconnected to anything about you and your family. Well, 34 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: this happened right here in the US. I'm looking at 35 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: the alleged perp, Peter Green, and the quote aggressive Christianity 36 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: Missions Training Corps. Okay, right there. Everything I mean. I'm 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: certainly no Bible scholar, and I play guilty to ignorance 38 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of biblical matters. But I thought Christ's 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: whole message was about including people. I mean, the last 40 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: I looked in the New Testament, Christ would um fraternize 41 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: with hookers. With thieves, with dreaded, hated tax collectors, even 42 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: people that tormented Christians. He included them. He showed them 43 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: love up. I don't recall anything about aggressive and the 44 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: whole New Testament aggressive behavior. That's their title. Peter Green 45 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: of the Aggressive Christianity Missions Training Corps. I mean, right now, 46 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: right there, I smell I smell a rat. But let's 47 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: get down instead of my wanderings about the facts as 48 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: we know them. A leader of the U. S. Military 49 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: style Christian sect is facing hundreds of child sex abuse 50 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: charges in a case police say is connected to wide 51 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: spread child abuse and child sex abuse by this religious community. 52 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: Where was it with me? Is Patty Lane, investigative reporter 53 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: and renowned psychologists out of New York, Karen Stark. Karen, 54 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: thank you also for being with us. Where did it happen? Patty? 55 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: It happened in Sense Lake, New Mexico. It's a really 56 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: rural area, a lot of ranches. According to the Census Bureau, 57 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: there were only forty two people living there, But we 58 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: don't know what people on this compound even you know, 59 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: counted themselves in the census report. The very latest in 60 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: and just the last couple of hours is that this 61 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: sect has been not has not only been abusing and 62 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: sexually abusing children, they are now accused of hiding children 63 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: from the police, hiding people. So we think they're forty 64 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: two people there, there could be a hundred people there, 65 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: forty of them children for all I know. And when 66 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: you're trying to hide children from the police, let me 67 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: tell you nothing good is coming out of hiding children 68 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: from the police. I'm just so shocked that this is 69 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: going on in somebody's backyard here in the US. Okay, 70 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: go ahead. What do we know that? That's a really 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: good question. You know, people that were part of this 72 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: so called sect or cult, if you want to call 73 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: them what they are, have been saying for years that 74 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: things have been going on in this group. I don't 75 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: know if they just took authorities that's longing to get 76 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: to it. But a hundred wants a child sex abuse 77 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: against one of its members, how does it go on 78 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: that long? The child sex abuse involves the rape of 79 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: a girl that they believe was smuggled into this country 80 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: from Uganda. So there leaves the question of if they're 81 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: hiding children, are some of them also children that were 82 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: smuggled in? If they're not recording births, which is what 83 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: was claimed against some of these defendants. Um, you know, 84 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: are they Are they hiding children for their own for 85 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: their own good? It's a very scary, very scary situation. 86 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: Did you just say, are they hiding children for the 87 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: children's own good? For their own But why wouldn't you 88 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: want for their own? Yeah? I guess so children, so 89 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: they won't they witnesses to all of this. A massive 90 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: charge has come down against these leaders of this crazy sect. 91 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: Peter Green, along with sect members Deborah Green, Joshua Green 92 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: they sound related. Stacy Miller also face charges ranging from 93 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: child abuse, bribery, not reporting a birth all along. A 94 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: former member, Maura Elena Schmeyer, has said that she has 95 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: been trying to draw attention to this sect for years, 96 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: that she has been interviewed by investigators, but nothing has 97 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: been done. What do we know, Patty Lane, investigative reporter, 98 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: about the charges against Peter Green. Well, Peter Green is 99 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: actually the son in law of Deborah Green, and Deborah 100 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: is one of the co founders and what they call 101 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: generals of this group. So we know that. Okay, wait 102 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, right there, 103 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 1: right there, a general within a Christian group. I don't 104 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: recall anything about the Twelve Disciples, who owned absolutely nothing 105 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: except their sandals, being some military opposition group that involved generals. 106 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: What do you mean by generals? What? Why were they 107 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: called generals? What's that to themselves? After? Uh? For instance, 108 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: the Salvation Army, Deborah Green is a co general. She 109 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: basically has members believing that she gets her messages directly 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: from God. She's been seen in videos with aggressive tone. 111 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: I've seen this video. She's actually almost yelling at her members, 112 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: telling them that they are waging a war on evil 113 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: for God and that this is God's war. Karen Stark, you, 114 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: like me, are certainly not a biblical scholar. I believe 115 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: in fact you're Jewish, correct correct? So a general and 116 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: that tone and that anger that we just heard that 117 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: that's not right? Well, Nancy, that's what the kind of 118 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: thing that you hear when people are under somebody's spell. 119 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: This is more like brainwashing, where um, the person is 120 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: able to finally convince the people that follow them how 121 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: strong they are, how good they are, and people no 122 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: longer can think for themselves, and so the more they 123 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: are that outgoing and sure themselves and acting like they're 124 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: meant that they get messages from God. The more their 125 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 1: followers believe that to be true. You know, um, here's 126 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: the thing they do. I think of Manson. Here's the thing. 127 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: But at least Manson didn't hide behind Christ. Okay, you can't. 128 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: You can't lay that on Manson. It's evil as the 129 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: similarities there, because you know, there's nothing that the authorities 130 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: can do. The group's move from place to place, and 131 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: the people follow and really stick to a person who 132 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: is not a great leader, is not a real Jesus. 133 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: Patty Lane joining the investigative reporter these people as she's right, 134 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: Karen Stark is right about the Manson family moving from 135 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: place to place and being somewhat elusive. But this group 136 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: has an encampment. They have a commune of sorts with 137 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: structures built out in the middle of nowhere. So they 138 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: were there for police to Okay, And another thing that's 139 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: bothering me, Patty Lane. If you want to go off 140 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: and you know, throw your lot in with somebody like 141 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: the Greens in this wacky cult, that's your business. But 142 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: when you drag children into it that don't have any 143 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: other choice, that is a whole Another can of worms, 144 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: and I frankly believe that not only should the I 145 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: guess generals within this cult be charged if these allegations 146 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: are true, but the children's parents who let this happen, 147 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: who willingly let their children be abused and sex abused. 148 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: What more do we know about the nature of the 149 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: claims against these cult leaders? Well, um, Stacy Miller, one 150 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: of those that was arrested is actually the mother of 151 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: a twelve year old boy who died at the compound. 152 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: Apparently he had an illness um from a blow on 153 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: the forehead. He lost the ability to move his right 154 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: side and speak. And the Greens do not believe in 155 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: modern medicine. They believe that God can heal everything. The 156 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: boy went on to develop a sea your flu and 157 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: then he died. So Stacy Miller, the mother is being 158 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: charged in this on child neglect charges. I believe that 159 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: God can heal everything too, That's why he gave us 160 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: doctors and hospitals. Okay, there you go the thought of 161 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: what these children have endured. The leader and three members 162 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: of a so called religious group based in Cibola County 163 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: have been arrested for what investigators described as horrific crimes 164 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: against children. The County Sheriff's office says that deputies arrest 165 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: Deborah Green, Peter Green, Joshua Green, and Stacy Miller. Now 166 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: they are claiming that these are just recirculated old stories 167 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: that have already been proven false, But Sheriff Tony Mace 168 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: is saying his office first started investigating the group last 169 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: year when two members claimed they had just escaped. The 170 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: warrant says that Green controlled all the money and rarely 171 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: wanted to pay for hospital or doctor visits, preaching that 172 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: people that are sick must repent and be healed. Also 173 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: that Deborah Green sex assaulted her daughter's five year old 174 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: girl who could have been smuggled in from Uganda as 175 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: a baby. But there are hundreds of counts. Witnesses say 176 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: that children were treated like slaves and routinely whipped, that 177 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: she at least this one girl was raped until she 178 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: was nine years old. There are one hundred counts of 179 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: criminal sex penetration of a minor. Can you even imagine 180 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: what these children lived with and if in fact this 181 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: was a commune, their parents were there going along with it. 182 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: Patty Lane, investigative reporter, it's almost more than I and 183 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: take in. If the parents were there, I think they 184 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: should be charged to for letting this. Absolutely, not only 185 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: were they there, they were actually participating. From what meant. 186 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: Former members have said they were forced to punish their 187 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: children physically. You know, they were forced to beat them 188 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: for every little thing to get them under get their 189 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: children under control, and to make them quote better warriors, 190 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: to break the family bond. This is how the Greens 191 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: would work with these families. So understanding that these parents 192 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: are probably under some kind of mind control to begin with, 193 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: that's not an excuse. But what I'm saying is they 194 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: are in this atmosphere. I believe I would snap out 195 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 1: of it with somebody beating your child, beat your child. 196 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: And that's why one of them left because she couldn't 197 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: do this to her child anymore. But it had to 198 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: get to a point where she had been beating her 199 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: child up to a point. So yeah, these parents were 200 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: complicit in what was going on. Another issue I found 201 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: out here and Start is that reportedly children were told 202 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: uh that they could not speak to police and parents 203 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: were blocked from keeping records about their children so they 204 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: could be hidden from police. You know, when you start 205 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: hiding records about your child's existence, and you don't want 206 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: police to know your children are even there. I don't 207 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: understand how the parents could go along with that here 208 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: and start, well, the parents aren't have lost the ability 209 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: to think for themselves, Nancy. The brain is can be 210 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: very sensitive that way if you wind up with somebody 211 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: who is that mesmerizing And what's fascinating to me, and 212 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't really understand it is that this cult was 213 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: sued before and by Schmeyer, Morschmeyer, and she was awarded 214 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: money because of what happened with her children. And yet 215 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: the group went on, they moved, and they were able 216 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: to keep going sustaining the life that they were imposing 217 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: on the members. Is what else I know. According to ports, 218 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: adult members of the sect were forced to bury photos 219 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: of their children after the Greens were first interviewed by deputies. Also, 220 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: they were taught to hide from police if they saw them. Also, 221 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: they were forced to search dumpsters for discarded produce to 222 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: bake bread and then sell the trash bread to unsuspecting 223 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: buyers in Texas, Colorado, and Oklahoma. That's what we know now. 224 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: A raid went down in the secluded western New Mexico 225 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: compound right now, child abuse and child sex abuse charges. 226 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: Brutal attacks during church services occurred. Uh they had to 227 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: use tactical gear, assault weapons, a flash bomb in order 228 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: to drive these sect leaders out and save the children. 229 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: That's what we know right now. Two little girls plot 230 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: and scheme. They invite their little best friend over for 231 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: spin the night party, the three of them seemingly having 232 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: fun at a sleepover, and then at some point they 233 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: lure the third little girl out into the woods, where 234 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: they proceed to give it their best efforts to stab 235 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: her dead. Yes, two little girls that have never been 236 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: a drop of trouble and their whole lives stab a 237 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: little girl multiple times and leaving her to quote bleed 238 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: out in the woods. Why why these little girls at 239 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: the time about the age of my girl Lucy's about 240 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: to turn in. It's hard for me to even take in. 241 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: Now we know that their whole motivation was because they 242 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: have become entranced and enthralled with slender Man. Slider Man, 243 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: if you look at him online, is a freaky looking 244 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: dude that has taken over the minds of a lot 245 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: of twins between the ages of nine and fifteen and 246 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: convinced them that he's real the only way to go 247 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: live with slender Man in his mansion is to commit 248 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: a murder. Yes, a murder. I will never forget. When 249 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: I was reading about this story and I pulled up 250 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: a picture of slender Man, and the twins walked behind 251 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: me and looked at my penment. Oh that's Slenderman. I 252 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: nearly fell over. I said, what do you know about Slenderman? Oh, 253 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: we just know that's him. Well, oh so it's real. 254 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: Joining me is cracked. Reporter Drew Nelson Jury, thank you 255 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: for being with us. Let's start at the beginning of 256 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: the girls or twelve years old when this occurs. What 257 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: happened exactly? The young ladies, they were all too well. 258 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: Anissa and Morgan invited Peyton out into the woods. They 259 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: were going to go play, hide and see. One of 260 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: the girls brought a kitchen knife, stabbed between the two 261 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: of them, stabbed Peyton nineteen times, and two of those 262 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: wounds could have killed her. Nancy, the little girl who's 263 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: just absolutely precious. Peyton Lautner. Doctors say in the emergency room, 264 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: she was about an eighth of an inch from losing 265 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: her life because one of the stabs pierced her body 266 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: about an eighth of an inch from an artery, If 267 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: even that much, that's how close she came to dying 268 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: out in the woods that night alone. Can you imagine 269 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: nineteen stab wounds all in an effort to appease some 270 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: freaky slender Man sci fi character? What do we know 271 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: about slender Man? With me? Psychologist Karan Stark? Who is Slenderman? 272 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: Slender Man is a mythical character, Nancy, And um, I 273 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: think somebody once drew a slender Man as a comic 274 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: book character, but it took off. There was something about 275 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: the idea of him. He was very tall and um 276 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: he had children under his arms sometimes, and children are 277 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: often fascinated by this kind of a character, spooky and 278 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: um scary and here wait, I'm gonna tell you something. Yes, 279 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: you're right about that. Children love ghost stories, scary stories. 280 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: Mine got obsessed with what was it, goose Bumps. They 281 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: saw the movie goose Bumps with Jack Black, who I 282 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: love um ever since Nacho Libre. I mean, really, what 283 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: else could be said other than that? But he was 284 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: um uh, the goose Bump writer who created the Goosebump 285 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: series in the movie. And then they started watching in 286 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: the Goose bumps like little mini vignettes, and they're scary. 287 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: If I never see Slappy the Mannequin again in my life, 288 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: I'll be happy. Okay, so freaky possessed mannein Andy. The 289 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: twins love to watch it. Finally I had to cut 290 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: them off. Okay, they're like little drunks with with goose bumps. Okay, 291 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,479 Speaker 1: I had to stop the madness. But they children, for 292 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: some reason, like to scare themselves, right, Like we all 293 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: go to movies that are suspensed movies where we read 294 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: a crime book or a mystery. But yeah, I like 295 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: happy things. I guess because I've seen so much that 296 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: really is scary. But I guess children go on like 297 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: you're saying. The slender Man is a fictional character who 298 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: took over the Internet as far back as two thousand 299 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: and nine. He is always depicted as an unnaturally tall 300 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: fan figure with a blank face. You never see his face, 301 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: and he's always wearing a black suit. Um. He's said 302 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: to have tentacle like arms which can be extended to 303 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: cat a prey, and Slenderman allegedly stalks and kidnaps children. 304 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: It's also said that if you want to go live 305 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,719 Speaker 1: with him in his match, and you have to commit 306 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: a murder. These two little girls wanted to go live 307 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,239 Speaker 1: in Slenderman's mansion. That's their story. Care and Stark, and 308 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: they believe the story. And what I want to tell 309 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: you about children and enjoying the way that yours did, Nancy, 310 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: the kind of horror is that it's a way to 311 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: get that excitement. And no, on the other hand, that 312 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: you don't really have to commit the murder. It's vicarious. 313 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: That's part of why children enjoy it so much. They're 314 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: they're safe. Well, well, let me correct something. Nobody gets 315 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: killed in Goosebumps, except maybe an alien or a creepy character, 316 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: but little children don't get killed in goose Bumps. I 317 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: think it was ready. Yeah, fairy tales are creepy too, 318 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 1: but I have read them and they do get killed. 319 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: But it doesn't it does, I guess. Referring to a 320 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: handsol Hansel and Gretel and the witch. They killed the witch, 321 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: and I don't want to get the witch population angry. 322 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: But she deserved it. Okay, she deserved the death penalty, 323 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: but that's a whole Another canon worms back to Slenderman 324 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: and how these two can really justify stabbing their little 325 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: friend next to her artery and leaving her to quote 326 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: bleed out to Plae Slenderman. And that doesn't make any 327 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: That part is the part that's very disturbing because usually 328 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: children understand that this is a story, that's part of 329 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: the enjoyment is that it's not going to happen to them. 330 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,239 Speaker 1: They're safe. But these girls at twelve actually say that 331 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: they believed this story to be true and they killed 332 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: the other day, tried to kill their friends in order 333 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: to be with him. And that's the part that doesn't ring. 334 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: And it was very well thought out, very well thought out. 335 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: To Drew Nelson, they have been planning this for days. 336 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: So a plea goes down, one of them plays guilty. 337 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: What are they played? What did she play too? And 338 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: what is her sentence? Nancy? They allegedly planned this for months? Um, 339 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: they haven't. She hasn't been sentenced as of yet, but 340 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: the prosecution is recommending ten years for pleading to second 341 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: degree attempted homicide. Initially, she was charged with first degree 342 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: attempted homicide. And uh, we're talking about a Nissa here. 343 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: A Nissa took the plea. Um Morgan still faces charges 344 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: the same charge. She could be sent away for forty 345 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: five years if she is convicted of a first degree 346 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: attempted homicide. Now there's the possibility that, uh, that Anissa 347 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: still has to go to trial and if they find out, 348 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: if they decide that she is mentally ill, she will 349 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: end up going to facility mental illness facility, a mental facility. 350 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: Did you see the picture, the photo of Anissa the 351 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: stab or in court holding a teddy bear. You've got 352 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: to look at that. Another issue here is that you 353 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: know I mentioned earlier that earlier the knife was an 354 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: eighth of an inch from the artery. I was wrong. 355 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: The knife passed less than a millimeter from the artery. 356 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: That's the width of a human hair, according to the doctor. 357 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: That's how close her bleeding death was. She managed to crawl, crawl, 358 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: a twelve year old little girl crawling and bleeding out 359 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: of the woods to save her own life. So one 360 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: has played guilty in his awaiting sentencing. The other, as 361 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: it looks right now, seems to be going forward with 362 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: a mental defense defense, claiming Slenderman told her to murder 363 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: her friend. Will it work here? And starts I don't 364 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: believe it were I'll be so surprised Nancy, because I 365 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: could understand that if they were younger, but at twelve, 366 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: she has some sense of the idea that that's a 367 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: fictional care after, and I have trouble believing that she 368 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: thought he really said that that's what he wants. I mean, well, 369 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: a problem they're going to have with plant climbing a 370 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: mental defect, Karen start is that they planned this out, 371 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 1: and there are notes passed between them, messages passed between 372 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: them to show that they're planning it. How they're going 373 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: to lure her out, how they got her to close 374 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: her eyes. I believe it was her birthday, got her 375 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: to close her eyes so they could then attack her 376 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: and stab her with her eyes closed, saying it was 377 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: going to be a surprise. They even they even planned 378 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: a code word for a win to start the attack. 379 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: And as you're always saying, Nancy, according to the law, 380 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: if they know the difference between right and wrong, then 381 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: they can't be considered mentally insane. Listen to this one, 382 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: your emergency transmember. A caller on Big Bend at the 383 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: dead End, just Salt of rivera Okay, upon a twelve 384 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: year old email two peers of being stabbed, she appears 385 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: to be what stabbed? Stabbed? Okay, sorry, still there? Yes, hi, sir, so, 386 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: is are you with this twel yeld female? Yeah? She 387 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: says she's having trouble breathing. She said she was stabbed 388 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: multiple times. They have multiple times. Okay, sir, are you 389 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: with her right now? Does she awake? She's awake. Is 390 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: she breathing? Yeah, she's breathing. She said she can take 391 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: shallow breath. She's alert. Okay, stay with her. We're sending 392 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: the police department. Don't hang up. Okay, hold on, don't 393 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: hang up. Okay, okay, Well, nice minutes. We're setting officers. 394 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: Is there any assailant around? I didn't even look. I 395 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: don't see anybody. Okay, stay stay right with her, sir. 396 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: Is she on the ground or she standing up? No, 397 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: she's laying on the grass, laying on the grass. Stay 398 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: right with her. Just letting me know if she is 399 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: remaining conscious or not. Okay, okay. Is there any bleeding 400 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: going on? Her clothing has got blood on it. Where 401 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: are the wounds? Did you see where the wounds are? No? 402 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: I'm I don't know if I should be rolling her 403 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: over and checking or not. Do you know where Okay, 404 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: just stay with her and just let me know if 405 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: she's conscious or alert or stops breathing. Thing, hold on 406 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: then to talk to the ambulance police are also in rented. Okay, 407 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: thank you. Just keep her in that position, just let 408 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: you know on her breathing. Okay, what your name, sir? 409 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: My name? Your name? My name is? Okay? Were you 410 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: just passing through? Yes? Okay, and you found her and 411 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: she was just laying there. Yeah, okay. An amateur submarine 412 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: inventor goes on. Let me just say, an underwater cruise 413 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: with a young brunette journalist. Now we learned she goes 414 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: missing and he has no idea what happened? Wait a minute, 415 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: where could she go from a submarine? I mean, how 416 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: far can she get if she's underwater on a submarine. 417 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: So what does James Bond have to say about this? 418 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: Taking the brunette journalist underwater in his homemade submarine? Why 419 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: did he take her there? Was she doing a story 420 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: on him or his contraption? Well? This is what I know. 421 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: I know in the last hours a female torso has 422 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: been discovered. Is it her? Joining me right now? Is 423 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: investigative reporter and crime stories contributor Cheryl White. Cheryl, thank 424 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What happened? First of all, 425 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: this guy people have a lot of wacky hobbies. I 426 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: get that, Oh, but building submarines. Who is this person? Well, 427 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: he's an inventor. He's a do it yourself submarine builder. 428 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: His name is Peter Madsen. Um. He's been in an 429 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: ongoing fight over this particular submarine, which I'll get to later, 430 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: but in essence, because the submarine was being relaunched. It 431 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: was initially launched in two thousand and eight. He threw crowdfunding, 432 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: refurbished it, and was relaunching it. Was doing an interview 433 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: with thirty year old freelance journalist Kim Walt, So they 434 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: went out for a little voyage. It was it was 435 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: going to be a very short ride. Um, so so 436 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: she could continue her interview for a future story. So 437 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: wait a minute, let me understand this. This guy, Peter Madsen, 438 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: goes out with the reporter and she is going to 439 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: write a story about him building the the amateur submarine. 440 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: Apparently it worked and he had launched it before and 441 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: actually did crowdsourcing to get the money to refurbish it 442 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: and relaunch it. So this beautiful young reporter is going 443 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: to do the story. I've just got to tell you 444 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: to forensic psychiatrist Dr Daniel Bober. It reminds me in 445 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: a horrible way of Stephen Avery the subject of making 446 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: a murderer. And um, now, because of the way that 447 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: was edited, everybody thinks Stephen Avery is innocent. Well he's not, okay, 448 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: But she Theresa holbyt was a journalist and she was 449 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: a photographer and she went to Avery's place to take 450 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: photos of a vehicle he wanted to sell on Auto 451 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: Trader and she was never seen alive again. This woman 452 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: in this case goes to write a feature story on 453 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: let's just say an eccentric I'll call him that for now, 454 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: who had built this submarine? Okay? What can I can? 455 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: I just ask um? I'm going to go to Sheryl 456 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: because she's the only other female with me right now. 457 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's all I can do to take care 458 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: of the twins, to cook for them, to get them bathe, 459 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: get their homework done, keep him on the straight and narrow, 460 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: give them love. We're all the time constantly working. Why 461 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: do men have so much time for hobbies? And I 462 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: mean obscure hobbies like building a submarine. You know what 463 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: if my husband came out and said he was going 464 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: to build a submarine in the basement, Oh yeah, I 465 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: would totally be calling Claypool to file a divorce. Well, 466 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: he's not building a freaking submarine while I'm out there 467 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: making snacks and himing up uniform pants. I think this 468 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: is sort of what he did, though. You know, he 469 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: this submarine has has consumed his life for many years now, 470 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: and he had been in a long running battle with 471 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: some of the volunteers who helped him building it so 472 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: he could regain control of this submarine and nanty. I 473 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you heard this or not. Let me 474 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: get over to a a quote here. During the battle 475 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: over who was gonna own or caretake this submarine, he 476 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: sent out a note that said, you might think that 477 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: a curse is lying on Nautilus, what he called the submarine. 478 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: There will not be piece of Nautilus for as long 479 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: as I exist. Do you cannot lift that curse legally? 480 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: A curse what he said? Oh man, thank thank Heaven. 481 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: I have a shrink on with me today. But before 482 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: I get into Mattin's believe that there's a curse on 483 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: the Nautilus. Look, nobody is sufficiently answering why I am 484 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: up there himming uniform pants and making snacks while the 485 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: men in the world have hobbies such as building submarine 486 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: in the basement, or they can go golf for nine 487 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: hours on a Saturday, or you know what. Whatever, go 488 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: down in the basement and do your ham radio man. Okay, 489 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep making snacks and cooking supper and working. Okay, 490 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: but that's just me. I think I may be projecting. 491 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: Let me get back to the facts of this case. 492 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: So she goes down. I hear snickering, but guess what, 493 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: I don't care. So she goes to do a story 494 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: and just like Teresa Holback, I guarantee you she got 495 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: a freaky vibe when she goes onto this submarine. Okay, 496 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: back to Cheryl White, our reporter. Just hold back for 497 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: a moment. Brian Claypool and Daniel Bober, I, now you're 498 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: chomping at the bit. Okay, So what happens? Then they 499 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: go underwater on the submarine. Oh, it would have been 500 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: a cold day in h E double l before I 501 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: put one toe in his submarine. But go ahead, Cheryl. 502 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: What happened? Well, at Nancy, the last photos scene of 503 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: the two are in the tower of the submarine, and 504 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: Kim Wall looks fine. She she actually looked like she's smiling. Um, 505 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: So what happened between the time that they left the 506 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: dock there and the time that the submarine sank that 507 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: was the next morning? Well, I think I've got a 508 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: pretty good idea to Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, Because 509 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: a woman's torso has just washed up. How in the 510 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: hay did he have time to kill her and dismember her? 511 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: If he did that in the submarine, I guarantee you 512 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: it's a crime scene tick Field day. But but let's 513 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: talk about the fact that she's smiling the last moment 514 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: that she's seen and now we I believe this is 515 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: her torso. Well, she could have been coerced, she could 516 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: have been threatened. He could have decapitated her after her 517 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: body was outside the submarine. Clearly, uh you know, this 518 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: was obviously no accident. And if he decapitated her, some 519 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: attempt was made to conceal the crime. If that's not 520 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: how she actually died from the decapitation itself, Well, here's 521 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: let me just throw a little monkey wrench in the 522 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: works for you. Brian Claypool, defense attorney out of l A. 523 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: He now says he has now said that there was 524 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: an accident and she died. I can thoroughly understand an 525 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: accident in a submarine. But if it were an accident, 526 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: Brian Claypool, why did he have to chop her head 527 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: off and quote bury her at sea? I mean, Brian, 528 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: if you and I were sitting on the coffee table 529 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: having a cup of coffee, okay, and then suddenly a 530 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: lamp fill on your head and you died, I would 531 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: not cut your head off and bury you in the backyard, 532 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: or at least I don't think I would. So explain 533 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: to me the whole decapitation process and why he had 534 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: to quote bury her at sea, Brian Claypool. And hey, 535 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: you've already used up the snap defense in the first segment, 536 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: so that's not gonna work on this one, okay, I 537 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: no snap First of all, you want to get one 538 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: snap defense a day. I want to thank you for 539 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: sparing my head after you kill me, after we have coffee, 540 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: So thank you for that number one. I set a 541 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: lamp fell on your two that I happened to be holding. 542 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 1: But go ahead. Number two. Not all men have these 543 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: lamp want hobbies. My my simple hobbies are reading the 544 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: sports page and maybe jogging every other day. So let's 545 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: let's set the record straight with men out there too, 546 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: and you going a little girl as well, so so 547 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: not all men are like this guy, alright, But let's 548 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: get to the heart of this. A couple of facts 549 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: that are gravitating against built to submarine basically, go ahead. 550 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: First of all, there's no he has no prior history 551 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: with this young lady. There's no there's no evidence of 552 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: neither did Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson had no prior history either. 553 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: Difference there is he was married to Lacy. This guy 554 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: has zero connection at all with this woman, and that's 555 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: going to help his defense because there's not going to 556 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: be any evidence of the neighbors overhearing these two fightings, 557 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: for example, or any police reports from from from her 558 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: calling and reporting that he's being violent toward her. So 559 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: there's gonna be zero evidence of that. Number one. And 560 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: then number two, you've already mentioned another important fact that 561 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: this young lady looked very happy just you know, before 562 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: something happens, So that does suggest that this could have 563 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: very well been an accident. Nancy. You know. The the 564 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: other thing this guy, um, we agree, is an eccentric. 565 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: The victor him was certainly no idiot. I mean, Dr Bober, 566 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: have you seen her cv. I mean, she has degrees 567 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: from Columbia University and a London School of Economics. You 568 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: know that's not a walk in the park. She's not noted. No, 569 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: she had, she had, she had a very impressive resume. 570 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 1: But by the time she realized that she was in danger, 571 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: she was you know, in the in the submarine, probably 572 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: isolated from any any possible help, and she you probably 573 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: knew it was too late and may even know what 574 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: was coming. You know. Another issue is that um Brian 575 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: Claypool pointed out, which is the work of a consummate 576 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: defense attorney, that she was smiling. Okay, well, Teresa Hallback 577 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: was probably smiling the afternoon before she was murdered by 578 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: Stephen Avery. Um. Also, have you ever been in an 579 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: uncomfortable situation and you just someone says something inappropriate or 580 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: they do something that's you know, passive aggressive, and you 581 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: just kind of brush it off and keep going because 582 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: that's your job. You're just ignored and keep going. I mean, 583 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: I do it all the time. And this woman had 584 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: to do a story. That was her job. She went 585 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: on the submarine to write a feature piece about Madison 586 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: and his submarine. Now she's dead, and I guarantee you 587 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: this is her torso so the fact that she was 588 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: smiling earlier while she was trying to do this story, 589 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: that means nothing to me. What matters now she'll never 590 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: smile again because she's dead. Um, I guarantee you Dr 591 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: Bober would walk me through this with me, forensics psychio 592 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: just Dr Daniel Bober. Veteran defense attorney Brian Claypool out 593 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: of l A and investigative reporter Cheryl White is with us. 594 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: Dr Bober, I guarantee you this is what went down. 595 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: She's in the sub with him, asking questions. She's smiling, 596 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: she's beautiful, she's making conversation with him professional. She probably 597 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: turns over down and there he is all puckered up 598 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: and attack attacks and she resists. He attacks her and 599 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: kills her. We may never know whether he raped her 600 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: or not, but I guarantee you something along those lines. 601 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: It's what went down. Daniel. It sounds like the most uh. 602 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,880 Speaker 1: It sounds like the most likely scenario. He basically ambushed 603 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: her and again she acting like I think the fact 604 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: that she was smiling again, she was just probably being 605 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: a professional, trying to do her job, and she probably 606 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: turned for one second and maybe he took her by surprise, 607 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: or she had to resist his advances and he wouldn't 608 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: take no for an answer. But like you said, we'll 609 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: probably Brian Claypool. He claims to police that she wall 610 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: disembarked on an island about three and a half hours 611 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 1: into their trip on Thursday night. I didn't know this 612 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: was a sleepover trip, Cheryl. I didn't. I thought she 613 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: just went on and they took a cruise. But they 614 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 1: went on what was planned to be an overnight trip. 615 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: Did you know that part? No, he said they were 616 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: going to just romp her off on a deserted island 617 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: three and a half hours away, and that occurred on 618 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: Thursday night, according to police. Now, also there is an 619 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: indication the submarine sunk, guys, and in my mind it 620 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: was deliberately sunk to get rid of evidence. You were 621 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: right on that. So what's going to happen now that 622 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: a torso has actually washed up? Cheryl? Well? We're expecting 623 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: to find out more today about that. They couldn't identify 624 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: the body. Not only was the heaf missing, but also 625 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: the arms and legs. Oh, my stars, I didn't know 626 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: that part, Cheryl. I mean the heads enough, but the 627 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: arms and the legs too. There goes your crime of passion. 628 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,479 Speaker 1: There goes your crime of passion. Defense, Claypool, go ahead. 629 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: There are so many interesting things here, because you know, 630 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: at first he said he knew nothing about it. He 631 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: had dropped her off at this island that had been 632 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 1: um reclaimed, and and there was a restaurant there. I guess, 633 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: but I guess the restaurant had surveillance cameras. They turned 634 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: those camera videos over to police. It was soon after 635 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: that that apparently he changed his story and he said, well, 636 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: maybe I didn't drop her off. What really happened was 637 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: there was an accident, she died, and I buried her 638 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: at sea. So he changed his story. I find that 639 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: very suspicious, Dear Lord in Heaven. Uh, there was an accident. 640 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: I just went ahead and buried her at sea. Right now, 641 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: When he left the private boat, a TV Channel two 642 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: shows him the Great Inventor, getting off a private boat 643 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: to discuss the sub sinking and his rescue and he says, boy, 644 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: that that certainly is a fly in the ointment, isn't it. 645 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,040 Speaker 1: So he gets off the rescue boat and they're all 646 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: the camera crews there, and what does he do. Dr 647 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober. He gives a thumbs up and he has 648 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: to say something, so he says, I'm fine, but I'm 649 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: sad because the Nautilus went down. That's his statement. Dr Bober. 650 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: He doesn't seem like he really has to pst social 651 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: skill of Nancy. I have to say, Okay, Clayful, just 652 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: give me your defense. I've got to hear this well. 653 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: First of all, you and Daniel should collaborate because that's 654 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: an incredible suspense novel that the two of you are 655 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: writing about what you think went down out he was 656 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: puckering up down there and visit Vance. That sounds like 657 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: a good book for me to read later tonight. But 658 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: she's working, trying to make a living, and she turns 659 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: around and say nothing but lists well, yeah, huge difference though, 660 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: between the book you two are writing and proving beyond 661 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt in the courtroom that this guy murdered her. 662 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: That the other biggest fact that that it's going to 663 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: really hard harm. The prosecution's case is that that the 664 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: you know, tragically this body was underwater. We don't know 665 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: whether there were any animals in the water that might 666 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: have and surgically cut off every limb. Absolutely absolutely, why not? 667 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: What what are you kidding me? All right, let me 668 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: ask you a question, Danna before we go off the dpan. 669 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm not weapons, physical weapons zero zero. Well, they'll be 670 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: able to examine the Okay, we'll hold on, hold on 671 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: what I think I've got proof. I think I've got 672 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: proof because when I came into the studio today, I 673 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: guess I'm going to have to cut his mike. When 674 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 1: I came into the studio today, it was dry outside 675 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: and sunny. Uh. The tent was quickly approaching niney If 676 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: I went outside right now and there were puddles everywhere 677 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: and people were going by with umbrellas and raincoats, I 678 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: would know that it had rained. I don't have to 679 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: see the storm. I don't have to see the lightning, 680 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: hear the thunder to know that it rained while I'm 681 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: in the studio. That's called circumstantial evidence. Okay, go ahead, clap, 682 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: will clench your teeth, bite your tongue. So if he 683 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: is saying she died by accident and I gave her 684 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: burial at sea, if he's saying that now it's like 685 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,760 Speaker 1: his third or fourth story, and this torso is connected 686 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: to her and it doesn't have a head, I can 687 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: pretty much assume that he cut her head off. Also 688 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: that medical examine will be able to tell by the 689 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: severance at the neck as to whether there are tool 690 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: marks or what how or bite marks. But I mean, 691 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: what shark or water beast is going to bite her 692 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: head and each arm off? Clearly that was done to 693 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: avoid identification. Okay, we'll keep you posted on this. But 694 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,799 Speaker 1: what I know right now, as much as we've been 695 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: kicking around facts and legal theories as it, there is 696 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: a family somewhere grieving because Kim Wall is dead and 697 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: suffered a horrific death. And as we go to air 698 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: right now, we are learning that police are looking for 699 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: her clothing. Now this is based off a torso, which 700 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: means she was unclothed. As we understand, prosecutors are commencing 701 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,919 Speaker 1: their investigation to seek a murder charge. Nancy Grace Crime 702 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: Stories signing off, Goodbye friend,