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Speaker 1: Man, did we get lucky with the timing of this.

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Speaker 1: Our next guest we could talk to I could talk

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Speaker 1: to for the next three hours easily, because he's one

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Speaker 1: of the leading thinkers and a couple of the hottest

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Speaker 1: topics going right now. So Greg lukian Off, New York

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Speaker 1: Times best selling author The President of Fire, which is

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Speaker 1: a foundation for individual rights and expression, all about free speech.

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Speaker 1: That's with Jimmy Kimmilosa's job. Does that fit into that

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Speaker 1: whole topic? Is the author of Unlearning Liberty, campus censorship

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Speaker 1: and the end of American debate, canceling of the American mind,

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Speaker 1: Cancel culture all about cancel culture, which is hot right now,

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Speaker 1: of course, and then part of this free press series

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Speaker 1: on repairing America after the murder of Charlie Kirk and

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Speaker 1: this particular piece that I've gotten from of me from

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Speaker 1: Greg Lukianoff Barry. The whole words are violence cliche, which

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Speaker 1: I would agree with anyway. Welcome back to the Armstrong

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Speaker 1: and Getty Show, Greg luki on Off, Greg, thanks for

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Speaker 1: joining us today. Great to be back, man, You obviously

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Speaker 1: are the man of the moment for a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of these topics. Let's start with what you just wrote

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Speaker 1: the barry the words are violence cliche around the whole

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Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk thing, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been defending free speech at Fire

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Speaker 2: for twenty four years now, and I'd say when I

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Speaker 2: first started my job, the sort of activist argument that

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Speaker 2: words can be just like bullets was something that people

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Speaker 2: kind of rolled their eyes at because it was obviously

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Speaker 2: a sort of self serving rhetorical blurry, right, But I'd say,

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Speaker 2: like ten years ago, or maybe even as long as

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Speaker 2: fifteen years ago, this really started to become a common

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Speaker 2: argument that I would hear on campus. And then you

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Speaker 2: started having people who should have known better actually saying, well,

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Speaker 2: words can cause stress, so therefore that is a lot

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Speaker 2: like violence. And you know, me and John Hight, who

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Speaker 2: I wrote probably in the American mind with, we wrote

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Speaker 2: a piece in The Atlantic saying, no, this is crazy words.

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Speaker 2: We have a societal agreement and you're supposed to have

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Speaker 2: it in a democratic society, that there's a bright line

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Speaker 2: distinction between physical violence and expression of opinion. And I

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Speaker 2: was I've been screaming to high Heaven to say, like, no,

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Speaker 2: this is an incredibly foolish idea. It's not progressive. It

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Speaker 2: gets you back to the thirteenth century AD or BC.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just as a side on that, I

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Speaker 1: remember at one point when The New York Times a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago actually said intent doesn't matter. So

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Speaker 1: not only had words become violence, but sometimes the way

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Speaker 1: they took your words even if you didn't intend it

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Speaker 1: that way. So, man, you're really into pre enlightenment then,

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Speaker 1: but go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, exactly. And the thing is, of course,

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Speaker 2: this kind of you know, foolish self serving rhetoric actually

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Speaker 2: turns into a situation that justifies violence for speech. And

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Speaker 2: this is oftimes coming from people who think that they're

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Speaker 2: anti totalitarian. It's like, there's nothing more totalitarian been saying

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Speaker 2: that I get to respond to your words with violence or,

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Speaker 2: in the case the horrifying case last week, murder.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you want to do away with that because

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Speaker 1: you think it's leading to violence, the saying words are violence,

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Speaker 1: because that can justify this particular maniac job as feeling

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Speaker 1: like he's meeting violence with violence.

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Speaker 2: Yet yes, but also I think it's bad for people's

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Speaker 2: mental health to have this kind of like catastrophizing way

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Speaker 2: of thinking. About that. And here's the most horrifying thing.

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Speaker 2: We just released a massive study for our campus free

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Speaker 2: speech ranking. About one third of the students we surveyed

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Speaker 2: in about out of like seventy thousand said that at

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Speaker 2: least in rare cases, violence can be acceptable in response

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Speaker 2: to speech. Some schools, that answer was over fifty percent

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Speaker 2: of them. We have done something terribly wrong. If educated

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Speaker 2: people are being educated in almost half of them think

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Speaker 2: the violence and response to words. And the funny thing is,

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Speaker 2: oftentimes it's not that they think it's just acceptable. They

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Speaker 2: think in some cases it's noble to respond to speakers

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Speaker 2: with usually the lighter forms of violence like shoutdowns or

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Speaker 2: blocking people's access. But here we see it, and it's

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Speaker 2: most chilling and horrifying.

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Speaker 1: All right, Since you make this list every year of

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Speaker 1: where what campuses have the least free speech, there's this

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Speaker 1: contest going on right now. You know who's worse, Which

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Speaker 1: side is worse, which side commits more violence, which side

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Speaker 1: does more cancel culture, that sort of thing. But when

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Speaker 1: it comes to college campuses, it's pretty one sided, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: That liberals can say whatever they want and conservatives can't.

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Speaker 2: It's a little more complicated than that, but you know,

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Speaker 2: the fire has been a second to no one and

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Speaker 2: taking on sort of like what might be called woke censorship.

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Speaker 2: But generally the rule is if the censorship comes from

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Speaker 2: on campus, it comes from the left. If the censorship

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Speaker 2: because it does not that many conservatives on campus in

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Speaker 2: the first place, but if it comes from off campus,

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Speaker 2: it tends to come from the right. And what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing right now is a big surge of cancelations of

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Speaker 2: censorship actually being pressured from the right as well.

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Speaker 1: So would the hope be that because I think you're right,

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Speaker 1: I think this puts us in a bad headspace if

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Speaker 1: we buy into the idea that words are violence. You've

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Speaker 1: been taught that you should react as if somebody's threatening

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Speaker 1: to punch you or shoot you when you hear something

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Speaker 1: you don't like, and that gets everybody's emotions running really,

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Speaker 1: really high. And then if we could get away with that,

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Speaker 1: maybe we wouldn't have things like Riley Gaines having to

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Speaker 1: fight her way out of Berkeley or Charlie Kirk being

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Speaker 1: shot at exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's a foolish idea. I think people, you know, people

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Speaker 2: who are actually thinking people know that it's just kind

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Speaker 2: of a rhetorical flirst, but I believe some of these

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Speaker 2: younger people really do feel like they're in a simplistic

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Speaker 2: battle of good versus evil, and evil must be stopped.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, that's an anti intellectual way of

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Speaker 2: thinking about that's not an intellectual way of thinking.

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Speaker 1: The world, no doubt. Before I move on to the

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Kimmel thing and how it fits into everything, how

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Speaker 1: optimistic are you for us, like really learning a lesson

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Speaker 1: from this horrible assassination and turning some sort of corner.

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Speaker 2: I would like to say I'm optimistic, but I think

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Speaker 2: that we're probably in the beginning of a intensifying sort

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Speaker 2: of free speech crisis, and it's happening not just in

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Speaker 2: the US, it's happening globally right, So unfortunately, business is

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Speaker 2: booming in free speech land. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: get a lot of sleep, nor will the good people

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Speaker 2: of Fire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's going on in England is just horrifying.

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Speaker 2: Horrifying, and my mom is British, so it's very personal

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Speaker 2: to me and they will continue to I did a

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Speaker 2: piece on my sub sect, the eternally Radical Idea, where

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Speaker 2: just pointing out the sheer number of people that they're arresting.

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Speaker 2: It has no parallel. I don't think it has any

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Speaker 2: parallel in British street. It certainly doesn't have a parallel

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Speaker 2: in American history in terms of the scale.

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Speaker 1: So you've written a lot about cancel culture over the years,

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Speaker 1: and we've got an example in the last twenty four

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Speaker 1: hours and since Charlie Kirk's death. So you've got people

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Speaker 1: being canceled from their jobs for saying sometimes really awful,

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Speaker 1: awful things. But should they lose their jobs over it?

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Speaker 1: Should the government be getting involved in putting pressure on

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Speaker 1: broadcast licenses to get rid of someone like Jimmy Kimmel

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Speaker 1: because they don't like what they say. Where are you

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Speaker 1: on this whole thing?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah? So you know, it really is a case

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Speaker 2: by case thing and canceling of the American mind. You know,

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Speaker 2: we give a definition of cancel culture, which is the

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Speaker 2: uptick of campaigns to get people fired or otherwise punished

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Speaker 2: starting around twenty fourteen for speech that would be protected

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Speaker 2: for say a public employee. So we ischoose a lot

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Speaker 2: of like nuanced and common sense to it. But to

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Speaker 2: be clear, some of the people who are getting punished,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're saying things relatively tame things that we're seeing,

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Speaker 2: at least some of USFF were seeing on campus. It's

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Speaker 2: not all that guy had it coming. It's a little

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Speaker 2: bit like I really disagree with that guy on a

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Speaker 2: lot of things, which is, of course, you know, completely

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Speaker 2: within bounds. But the Jimmy Kimmel stuff, I mean, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he Jimmy Kimmel was kind of a typical kind of

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Speaker 2: Hollywood guy, like he just he was desperate that this

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Speaker 2: guy be right wing. And I saw this like in

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Speaker 2: the media's wall. It's kind of embarrassed for a lot

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Speaker 2: of mainstream media to be kind of like, well, look,

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Speaker 2: his parents are Republican. M I'm like, in what universe?

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Speaker 2: Right the case that your parents were bubbling.

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Speaker 1: Because no conservative family sends their kids off to college

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Speaker 1: and they come back, you know, with completely different politics.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was just thinking about family ties, like sa

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Speaker 2: Comoy watched as a kid, like, right, yes, that's what

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Speaker 2: that's more the way it goes. It's a technical term.

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Speaker 2: It's skinso genesis, but the so so you know, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of typical that he was kind of implying that

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Speaker 2: this guy's got to be maga in some of his

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Speaker 2: uh in his comedy routine on Monday. But then you

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Speaker 2: know the campaign, and it was really clearly a campaign

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Speaker 2: to get Jimmy fired. Taking this opportunity really got going,

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Speaker 2: you know, with Brendan Carr being really clear about it.

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Speaker 2: And another thing that's really important to point out is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, months ago, they were saying Jimmy Kimmel's next,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, so this was this was a you know,

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Speaker 2: I think, a target of opportunity to get this guy fired.

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Speaker 2: And I've never been to be clear, I've never seen

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Speaker 2: something white like this, and people will always do what

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Speaker 2: about ism, like what about what about like Rose Ambar

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Speaker 2: or some of these other cases. It's like, I just

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Speaker 2: haven't seen this level of pressure on mainstream networks to

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Speaker 2: silence to silence a comedian.

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Speaker 1: Right Well, because of my politics, I'm highly annoyed by

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Speaker 1: the treating anybody to the right side of the aisle

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Speaker 1: as a moron the way Colbert and Kimmel did. But

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Speaker 1: the problem with the government putting pressure on networks to

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Speaker 1: get rid of them or broadcast licenses or whatever is

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Speaker 1: there's going to be a democratic president someday, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want president Gavin Newsom telling his FCC. Hey, right

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Speaker 1: wing talk radio is out of control and we need

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Speaker 1: to do something about this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is interesting the way the Trump administration has

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Speaker 2: been running things. It seems like they don't care about

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Speaker 2: the fact that someone else could have used this power

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Speaker 2: in the future, with kind of like an idea that

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Speaker 2: they're always going to be the ones who are making

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Speaker 2: these calls, which I think is foolish, but it's also,

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Speaker 2: by the way, rightfully banned it in a lot of

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Speaker 2: these cases by the First Amendment. And Fire's job in

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Speaker 2: this situation like this is to call balls and strikes.

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Speaker 2: And I will get people sometimes saying, oh, the political

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Speaker 2: situation is so intense right now, you have to pick

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Speaker 2: a side that your quite little First Amendment thing that

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Speaker 2: you know doesn't really apply it in this kind of battle.

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Speaker 2: And I'm always like, no, right now, the rules of

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Speaker 2: the road matter more than ever, and it's our job

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Speaker 2: to defend them.

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Speaker 1: Specifically, Charlie Kirk, while he was out there doing his

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Speaker 1: thing going to college campuses, did you think that was

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Speaker 1: a productive thing for free speech in America?

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Speaker 2: I did. Actually, you know, my disagreement with Charlie Kirk

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Speaker 2: is mostly due to their scholar, their Scholar Database, the

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Speaker 2: Scholar watch List, which I was not a big fan

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Speaker 2: of because it resulted in a lot of people, a

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Speaker 2: lot of tends to get people fired, a lot of

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Speaker 2: you know, a lot of cancer culture. We made a

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Speaker 2: big distinction between just calling out professors, which he totally

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Speaker 2: can do, but you know when you put like this

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Speaker 2: is their supervisor and like all this kind of stuff

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Speaker 2: to try to get them fired, I got an issue

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Speaker 2: with that. However, you know, Charlie's murder has led me to,

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Speaker 2: you know, go back and look at some of his

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Speaker 2: discussions with students, and I think this is having this

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Speaker 2: effect all over the country. By the way, Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 2: So political violence tends to backfire. And I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 2: Like he dealt with some frustrating questions and he dealt

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Speaker 2: with them usually like is the ones that I I

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Speaker 2: saw with pretty civilly. So I've left with an impression

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Speaker 2: that it was a productive dialogue.

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Speaker 1: Right. I don't know if you've seen the it's on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk with Bill Maher. They had like a two

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Speaker 1: hour conversation in Bill Maher's basement a couple of months ago,

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Speaker 1: pretty recently, and it was it was as civil between

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Speaker 1: two guys that agree on nothing, as you could possibly imagine,

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Speaker 1: and if we can't do that, we're doomed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm actually speaking at Sun Valley, not Sun Valley,

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Speaker 2: at Utah Valley on October thirtieth. And what's crazy. I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna admit it. You know, am I a little spooked?

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Speaker 2: You know? Of course I am. But you can't ever

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Speaker 2: let the you know, assassin veto win. You have to

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Speaker 2: actually show up. You have to you know, pick up

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Speaker 2: the mantle, you have to actually you know, have that discussion.

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Speaker 2: And I'm hoping to go there with a message of

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Speaker 2: you know, essentially free speech belongs to us all or

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Speaker 2: belongs to nobody, because I think the younger people are

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Speaker 2: being taught that freedom of speech is the weapon of

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Speaker 2: the bully, the big and the robber baron. And as

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Speaker 2: I say all the time, that is just that history.

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Speaker 2: You are being miseducated on this topic. So hopefully I can.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to try, and Fire is always trying to

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Speaker 2: contribute to a deeper, more philosophical understanding of the frankly

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Speaker 2: beautiful role of free speech and human history.

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Speaker 1: Well, we talk about your books all the time. The

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Speaker 1: coddling of the American Mind is my partner. Joe's one

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Speaker 1: of his favorite books of all time. We mentioned stuff

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Speaker 1: that you write all the time. What particularly would you

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Speaker 1: like us to point people to right now before I

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Speaker 1: let you go?

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Speaker 2: Sure? I mean, you know, the most important thing is

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Speaker 2: that fire is currently overwhelmed, So we could really use

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Speaker 2: support from people, and we need the people who care

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Speaker 2: about free speech for their own side, but also for

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Speaker 2: everyone else. We need those principled people are out there

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Speaker 2: to come and help because right now, to you, the

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Speaker 2: pun it's a free speech is kind of a house

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Speaker 2: on fire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Greg Lukiana, thanks for your time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I take care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he is. He is really good and he's absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: Like I can't stand Jimmy Kimmel. I mean, he makes

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Speaker 1: my skin crawl. He's so smug, that's the word I

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Speaker 1: was looking for. He is so freaking smug. But if

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Speaker 1: the FCC can pressure him off the air, he can

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Speaker 1: pressure Joe and I off that they can pressure Joe

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Speaker 1: and I off the air in a different administration. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: so that bothers me. I want to tell you about

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Speaker 1: trust and will real quick. This is just a really

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Speaker 1: really good idea. If you don't have a trust and

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Speaker 1: gets what. The state could jump in and make all

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Speaker 1: dot com slash armstrong. I know a lot of you

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Speaker 1: are going to be angry and feel like I'm standing

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Speaker 1: up for Jimmy Kimmel because I'm not just really rolling

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Speaker 1: around in glee that he got fired. But once you

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Speaker 1: allow that weapon of canceling people from the FCC to

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Speaker 1: be wielded against your enemies, it's going to come back.

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Speaker 1: I just know it is. We've got a lot more

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Speaker 1: time to talk about this and other stuff. I hope

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Speaker 1: you can stick around, Armstrong,