WEBVTT - Cinderella

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<v Speaker 1>School of Humans.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode discusses sensitive topics. Please listen with care. My

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<v Speaker 2>name is Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods,

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<v Speaker 2>a podcast about sex, violence and fairy tales. Today's story

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<v Speaker 2>is Cinderella.

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<v Speaker 3>When evening came, Cinderella wanted to leave, and the prince

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<v Speaker 3>tried to escort her, but she ran away from him

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<v Speaker 3>so quickly that he could not follow her. The prince, however,

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<v Speaker 3>had set a trap. He had the entire stairway smeared

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<v Speaker 3>with pitch. When she ran down the stairs, her left

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<v Speaker 3>slipper stuck in the pitch. The prince picked it up.

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<v Speaker 3>It was small and dainty and of pure cold. The

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<v Speaker 3>next morning he went with it to the man and

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<v Speaker 3>said to him, no one shall be my wife except

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<v Speaker 3>for the one whose foot fits in this golden shoe.

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<v Speaker 3>The two sisters were happy to hear this, for they

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<v Speaker 3>had pretty feet. With their mother standing by, the older

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<v Speaker 3>one took the shoe into her bedroom to try it on.

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<v Speaker 3>She could not get her big toe into it, for

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<v Speaker 3>the shoe was too small for her. Then her mother

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<v Speaker 3>gave her a knife and said, cut off your toe.

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<v Speaker 3>When you are queen, we will no longer have to

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<v Speaker 3>go on foot. The girl cut off her toe, forced

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<v Speaker 3>her foot into the shoe, swallowed the pane, and went

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<v Speaker 3>out to the prince. He took her on his horse

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<v Speaker 3>as his bride, and rode away with her. However, they

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<v Speaker 3>had to ride past the grave, and there on the

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<v Speaker 3>hazel tree sat two pigeons crying out.

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<v Speaker 4>Rickity gool, rickety goo, there's blood in the shoe. The

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<v Speaker 4>shoe is too tight. The bride is not right.

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<v Speaker 3>Then he looked at her foot and saw how the

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<v Speaker 3>blood was running from it. He turned his horse around

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<v Speaker 3>and took the false bride home again, saying that she

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<v Speaker 3>was not the right one, and that the other sister

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<v Speaker 3>should try on the shoe. She went into her bedroom

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<v Speaker 3>and got her toes in all right, but her heel

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<v Speaker 3>was too large. Then her mother gave her a knife

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<v Speaker 3>and said, cut a piece off your heel. When you

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<v Speaker 3>are queen, we will no longer have to go on foot.

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<v Speaker 3>The girl cut a piece off her heel, forced her

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<v Speaker 3>foot into the shoe, swallowed the pain, and went out

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<v Speaker 3>to the prince. He took her on his horse as

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<v Speaker 3>his bride, and rode away with her. When they passed

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<v Speaker 3>the hazel tree, the two pigeons were sitting in it,

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<v Speaker 3>and they cried out.

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<v Speaker 4>Rickety goo, rickity goo. There's blood in the shoe. The

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<v Speaker 4>shoe is too tight.

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<v Speaker 1>The bride is not right.

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<v Speaker 3>He looked down at her foot and saw how the

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<v Speaker 3>blood was running out of her shoe, and how it

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<v Speaker 3>had stained her white stockings all red. Then he turned

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<v Speaker 3>his horse around and took the false bride home. Again.

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<v Speaker 3>This is not the right one one either, he said.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't you have another daughter? No, said the man, there's

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<v Speaker 3>only a deformed little Cinderella from my first wife. But

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<v Speaker 3>she cannot possibly be the bride. The prince told him

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<v Speaker 3>to send her to him, but the mother answered, oh no,

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<v Speaker 3>she is much too dirty.

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<v Speaker 1>She cannot be seen.

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<v Speaker 3>But the prince insisted on it, and they had to

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<v Speaker 3>call Cinderella.

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<v Speaker 1>She first washed her.

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<v Speaker 3>Hands and face clean, and then went and bowed down

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<v Speaker 3>before the prince, who gave her the golden shoe. She

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<v Speaker 3>sat down on a stool, pulled her foot out of

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<v Speaker 3>the heavy wooden shoe, and put it into the slipper,

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<v Speaker 3>and it fit her perfectly. When she stood up, the

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<v Speaker 3>prince looked into her face and recognized the beautiful girl

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<v Speaker 3>who had danced with him. He cried out she is

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<v Speaker 3>my true bride. The stepmother and the two sisters were

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<v Speaker 3>horrified and turned pale with anger. The prince, however, took

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<v Speaker 3>Cinderella to his horse and rode away with her. As

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<v Speaker 3>they passed the hazel tree, the two white pigeons cried out.

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<v Speaker 4>Rickedy goo, rickedy goo. No blood in the shoe.

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<v Speaker 1>The shoe's not too tight. The bride is right.

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<v Speaker 3>After they cried this out, they both flew down and

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<v Speaker 3>lit on Cinderella's shoulders, one on the right, the other

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<v Speaker 3>on the left, and they remained sitting there. When the

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<v Speaker 3>wedding with the prince was held. The two false sisters came,

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<v Speaker 3>wanting to gain favor with Cinderella and to share her

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<v Speaker 3>good fortune. The oldest sister walked on their right side

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<v Speaker 3>and the younger on their left side, and the pigeons

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<v Speaker 3>pecked out one eye from each of them. Afterwards, as

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<v Speaker 3>they came out of the church, the older one was

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<v Speaker 3>on the left side and the younger one on the

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<v Speaker 3>right side, and then the pigeons pecked out the other

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<v Speaker 3>eye from each of them. And thus for their wickedness

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<v Speaker 3>and falsehood, they were punished with blue blindness as long

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<v Speaker 3>as they lived.

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<v Speaker 1>Once upon a time.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how a lot of fairy tales start. Once upon

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<v Speaker 2>a time, there was a prince, or once upon a

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<v Speaker 2>time and a land far away. You could argue it's

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<v Speaker 2>almost the perfect setup for a magical tale.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we get back to.

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<v Speaker 2>The story you just heard, there's another once upon a time.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to tell you one you might not be

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<v Speaker 2>as familiar with. Once upon a Time. There are two

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<v Speaker 2>brothers who lived during the midst of revolution and wars.

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<v Speaker 2>Worried their Germanic culture would be lost, they begin collecting

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<v Speaker 2>and documenting the oral tales of their people. Their first

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<v Speaker 2>collected works were published in two parts, the first in

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen twelve and the second in eighteen fifteen. Their books

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<v Speaker 2>became wildly popular, second only to the Bible.

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<v Speaker 1>The collection of.

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<v Speaker 2>Tales would pull the brothers and their siblings out from

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<v Speaker 2>the throes of poverty. Their desire to preserve their heritage

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<v Speaker 2>would launch them into generations of fame. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>legacy of the Brothers grim. My name is Miranda Hawkins.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been a journalist and producer for.

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<v Speaker 1>Almost a decade.

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<v Speaker 2>I've worked on shows like Monster, the Zodiac, Killer, Camppell

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<v Speaker 2>and Awaki and American Shadows. But long before I started

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<v Speaker 2>writing my own stories and working on others, I read.

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<v Speaker 2>I read everything in. My favorite stories were fairy tales.

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<v Speaker 2>Like many people, the stories of Cinderella and snow White

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<v Speaker 2>that I grew up with were the Disney versions. They

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<v Speaker 2>had clear, definitive lines of good versus evil, and always

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<v Speaker 2>had a happy ending. Everything came packaged with a nice,

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<v Speaker 2>tidy beough. I remember the first time I ran across

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<v Speaker 2>an original brother's grim tale. It was Cinderella. It was

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<v Speaker 2>much darker than i'd anticipated. Instead of the wicked stepsisters

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<v Speaker 2>trying to shove their foot into the glass slipper and

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<v Speaker 2>it's simply not working, they cut off parts of their feet.

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<v Speaker 1>I was instantly hooked.

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<v Speaker 2>I love all things dark and twisted, and here is

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<v Speaker 2>a story I grew.

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<v Speaker 1>Up on, but so much grittier.

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<v Speaker 2>These stories didn't quite have the happily ever after ending

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<v Speaker 2>you'd expect. Next thing I knew. I found myself falling

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<v Speaker 2>down the rabbit hole and reading all of the original tales,

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<v Speaker 2>And the more I read, the more I wanted to know.

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<v Speaker 2>Why were these stories told and re told? Why have

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<v Speaker 2>they endured for centuries? Where did they come from? And

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<v Speaker 2>how have they evolved to reflex the society's changes. I

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<v Speaker 2>believe that stories are the heart of life. They teach

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<v Speaker 2>us about ourselves in the world. So what can we

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<v Speaker 2>learn by taking a deeper dive into some of the

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<v Speaker 2>most well known tales that have lasted generations. Well, let's

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<v Speaker 2>find out. To find Cinderella stories and many folk tales,

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<v Speaker 2>we head to the Arn Thompson Uther Index. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>system folkloreists use to group and examine tales from different cultures.

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<v Speaker 2>Since there are so many stories with similar traits, the

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<v Speaker 2>system categorizes everything by plot. There are three men to

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<v Speaker 2>think for the ATU Index, Auntie Arn of Finland, Stif

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<v Speaker 2>Thompson of the US, and Hans Jorg Uther of Germany.

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<v Speaker 2>Arn began collecting and documenting all Scandinavian folklore and published

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<v Speaker 2>his first findings in nineteen ten. The Thompson translated the

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<v Speaker 2>index to English and added tales from his corner of

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<v Speaker 2>the world. Finally, Uther updated and added another two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty categories and subcategories. Uther also shifted titles to

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<v Speaker 2>make the index less sexist. For example, the tale of

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<v Speaker 2>a sister saving her seven brothers after they'd been transformed

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<v Speaker 2>into swans or another type of bird changed from the

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<v Speaker 2>brothers who returned into birds two the maiden who rescues

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<v Speaker 2>her brothers. Similar to the Dewey decimal system used in libraries,

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<v Speaker 2>the ATU index has its own system to track down stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Starting with ATU followed by a number and a title.

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<v Speaker 2>The ATU index breaks collected tales into seven main types,

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<v Speaker 2>animal tales, tales of magic, religious tales, realistic tales, anecdotes

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<v Speaker 2>and jokes, formula tales, and my favorite category name tales

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<v Speaker 2>of the stupid ogre giant devil. From those seven major

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<v Speaker 2>tale types, it breaks down into smaller tale types. For example,

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<v Speaker 2>today's story is found under tales of magic subtale type

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<v Speaker 2>the persecuted heroine. And as a quick side note, many

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<v Speaker 2>of the stories in the ATU index originate in Europe

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<v Speaker 2>and the western part of Asia. Folklorets across the world

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<v Speaker 2>are trying to fix us to include stories missing from Africa, Asia,

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<v Speaker 2>and South America. One article I've found says that even

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<v Speaker 2>the well known Arabian night stories might not be included either.

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<v Speaker 2>As much as these stories are categorized, studied, and told

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<v Speaker 2>and retold.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's first ask what makes a folk tale of folk tale?

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<v Speaker 2>I think One of my favorite aspects of making the

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<v Speaker 2>show was learning about folklorists, people who study fairy tales

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<v Speaker 2>and folklore for a living. Throughout the series will be

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<v Speaker 2>hearing from different people in the field. Every person will

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<v Speaker 2>have their own perspective, as there's no definitive takeaway on

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<v Speaker 2>stories themselves. Doctor Lynn McNeil is a professor of folklore

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<v Speaker 2>at Utah State University in the English Apartment. She has

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<v Speaker 2>also made appearances on national television to discuss folklore and

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<v Speaker 2>is the author of several books. And she said, what

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<v Speaker 2>is important to know about folklore is this fundamental truth.

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<v Speaker 5>It's meant to change over time. It's meant to change

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<v Speaker 5>to stay relevant.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's how she explained folk tales to me. Folklore is

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<v Speaker 2>all cultural expression that is shared through word of mouth.

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<v Speaker 2>So folk tales are the stories that are learned and

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<v Speaker 2>shared and generated collectively from person to person through time

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<v Speaker 2>and plays. Folk tales adapt to the environment they are

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<v Speaker 2>being told in, so that means we can use these

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<v Speaker 2>tales as a barometer for cultural difference, cultural similarity, and cultural.

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<v Speaker 5>Change, invoking a sense that we're talking back to something,

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<v Speaker 5>we're responding to something prior. And of course, scholars of

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<v Speaker 5>literature and film would say the same thing. Any new

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<v Speaker 5>contemporary film is responding to its predecessors, to the films

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<v Speaker 5>that came before it, But in fairy tales, we're doing

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<v Speaker 5>it in this really specific and direct way, because it's

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<v Speaker 5>a genre that by definition adapts and evolves.

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<v Speaker 2>So what about Cinderella or, as she was originally called

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<v Speaker 2>in The Brother's grim Tail, Ashen Poodle, which roughly translates

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<v Speaker 2>to ashen dirty girl. What you heard at the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of the episode was the second half of the original

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<v Speaker 2>Brother's grim Tail, and in their version, the father was

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<v Speaker 2>still alive and stood by while the stepmother in steps

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<v Speaker 2>sisters treated Cinderella as they did before.

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<v Speaker 1>One of his.

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<v Speaker 2>Travels, the father asked his three daughters what gifts they

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<v Speaker 2>would like. The two stepsisters of Corus wanted clothes and jewelry,

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<v Speaker 2>but Cinderella one of the first twig that brushed her

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<v Speaker 2>father's hat on his way home. Cinderella then plants a

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<v Speaker 2>twig at her mother's grave. The twig is watered by

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<v Speaker 2>Cinderella's tears and ends up growing into a beautiful tree.

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<v Speaker 2>When she is not allowed to go to the ball,

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<v Speaker 2>Cinderella goes to the tree to ask for a gown

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<v Speaker 2>and shoes so she can make it to the dance.

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<v Speaker 2>Each time the birds granted her wish, she dashed off

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<v Speaker 2>to dance with the prince, and each time the prince

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<v Speaker 2>was smitten and dance with only Cinderella. Every night Cinderella returned,

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<v Speaker 2>she would give back the gown and slippers. That was

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<v Speaker 2>until the third night, when she lost one of her shoes.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't glass, though, it was gold. And now we've

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<v Speaker 2>come full circle to the brother's grim story of Cinderella.

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<v Speaker 2>As for where the story originated from, that's another question entirely.

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<v Speaker 5>Did it begin in China? Did it begin in Egypt

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<v Speaker 5>and move as humans moved and shared their stories through

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<v Speaker 5>time and space all the way up until now. Or

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<v Speaker 5>are those story elements a persecuted young woman, a mechanism

0:14:30.765 --> 0:14:34.845
<v Speaker 5>of recognition, a deceased mother helping her child from the afterlife.

0:14:35.205 --> 0:14:40.525
<v Speaker 5>Are those story elements so basic to human experience that

0:14:40.525 --> 0:14:45.085
<v Speaker 5>that story, or something resembling it cropped up in multiple places,

0:14:45.485 --> 0:14:48.325
<v Speaker 5>all at once or at different times, and grew from

0:14:48.365 --> 0:14:50.685
<v Speaker 5>there And the truth is we don't know.

0:14:51.685 --> 0:14:55.285
<v Speaker 2>Initially, my research showed that the first recorded version of

0:14:55.325 --> 0:14:59.645
<v Speaker 2>Cinderella dates back more than two thousand years. It was

0:14:59.685 --> 0:15:03.965
<v Speaker 2>documented by Herodotus. He was a Greek historian and geographer

0:15:04.125 --> 0:15:06.765
<v Speaker 2>who is best known for writing histories of the Greco

0:15:06.845 --> 0:15:11.605
<v Speaker 2>Persian Wars. But like many of us, Herodotus couldn't resist

0:15:11.725 --> 0:15:15.285
<v Speaker 2>a good tale. He was even accused of making up

0:15:15.325 --> 0:15:21.885
<v Speaker 2>stories for entertainment. In the Herodotus version, Cinderella was named Rodopus,

0:15:22.245 --> 0:15:26.525
<v Speaker 2>which means either rosy cheeked or rosy eyed. To be clear,

0:15:26.885 --> 0:15:32.565
<v Speaker 2>rosy idrifers having sparkly eyes, not bloodshot. Rhodopus is then

0:15:32.605 --> 0:15:35.485
<v Speaker 2>again mentioned at a later date by the Greek geographer

0:15:35.565 --> 0:15:39.165
<v Speaker 2>Strabo of Amasia. He is the one who is credited

0:15:39.445 --> 0:15:43.445
<v Speaker 2>with first writing the tale down Rhodapus was kidnapped from

0:15:43.445 --> 0:15:47.165
<v Speaker 2>her home in Greece and sold as a slave in Egypt. There,

0:15:47.285 --> 0:15:49.725
<v Speaker 2>the other slave girls made fun of her because she

0:15:49.885 --> 0:15:50.565
<v Speaker 2>looked different.

0:15:51.285 --> 0:15:52.045
<v Speaker 1>Where the other.

0:15:51.925 --> 0:15:56.245
<v Speaker 2>Women had bronze skin and straight, dark hair, Rhodipus was

0:15:56.365 --> 0:16:02.685
<v Speaker 2>light skinned with golden curls. At night, she would go

0:16:02.725 --> 0:16:04.685
<v Speaker 2>to the banks of the river and dance for her

0:16:04.725 --> 0:16:08.725
<v Speaker 2>animal friends. On one such night, an old man spotted

0:16:08.765 --> 0:16:12.125
<v Speaker 2>her dancing and thought she deserved a beautiful pair of shoes,

0:16:13.085 --> 0:16:16.525
<v Speaker 2>so he had gold sandals made and delivered to Rhodopus.

0:16:17.645 --> 0:16:20.845
<v Speaker 2>Not long after, a falcon steals one of her sandals,

0:16:20.965 --> 0:16:24.165
<v Speaker 2>flies across a Mediterranean and drops it in the lap

0:16:24.205 --> 0:16:27.605
<v Speaker 2>of an Egyptian pharaoh. The pharaoh takes us as a

0:16:27.645 --> 0:16:30.765
<v Speaker 2>sign from the gods and crosses land and sea to

0:16:30.765 --> 0:16:31.765
<v Speaker 2>find the owner.

0:16:31.485 --> 0:16:32.725
<v Speaker 1>Of the shoe.

0:16:32.805 --> 0:16:37.085
<v Speaker 2>When the pharaoh finally finds Rhodapus, they get married. There's

0:16:37.125 --> 0:16:39.965
<v Speaker 2>a theory that Rhodapus is based on a true story,

0:16:40.525 --> 0:16:44.365
<v Speaker 2>but in that story, Rhodopus became a well regarded courtesan

0:16:44.605 --> 0:16:46.605
<v Speaker 2>who tricked a man to fall in love with her

0:16:46.685 --> 0:16:48.205
<v Speaker 2>and buy her freedom.

0:16:48.565 --> 0:16:50.245
<v Speaker 1>When he did, she left.

0:16:50.085 --> 0:16:53.965
<v Speaker 2>Him, and his sister was furious, and supposedly that man's

0:16:54.005 --> 0:17:01.765
<v Speaker 2>sister was none other than the famous Sapphos. However, when

0:17:01.845 --> 0:17:05.045
<v Speaker 2>historians sit with the timeline of the story of Rhodapus

0:17:05.125 --> 0:17:10.285
<v Speaker 2>and this courtisan, it doesn't quite add up. Another early

0:17:10.405 --> 0:17:13.445
<v Speaker 2>version of Cinderella is about a young Chinese girl named

0:17:13.525 --> 0:17:17.525
<v Speaker 2>Yashen that was written sometime between six hundred and nine

0:17:17.605 --> 0:17:24.765
<v Speaker 2>hundred eighty during the Tong dynasty. Yashen's father was a

0:17:24.805 --> 0:17:28.165
<v Speaker 2>cave chief who had two wives, and each wife bore

0:17:28.205 --> 0:17:31.845
<v Speaker 2>him a daughter, not long after Yashin was born, her

0:17:31.885 --> 0:17:35.645
<v Speaker 2>mother died, and soon after so did her father, the chief.

0:17:37.085 --> 0:17:40.725
<v Speaker 2>The stepmother was insanely jealous of her new stepdaughter's beauty

0:17:40.805 --> 0:17:44.765
<v Speaker 2>and kindness. Because of this, the stepmother would give Yashin

0:17:44.925 --> 0:17:49.685
<v Speaker 2>the most difficult chores. Yashin's only friend was a golden fish.

0:17:50.445 --> 0:17:53.725
<v Speaker 2>The stepmother ended up finding out about the fish and

0:17:53.845 --> 0:17:54.445
<v Speaker 2>killing it.

0:17:54.965 --> 0:17:57.845
<v Speaker 1>Yashin was devastated, but an old.

0:17:57.685 --> 0:18:00.725
<v Speaker 2>Man told Yashin to keep the bones and make wishes

0:18:00.765 --> 0:18:04.965
<v Speaker 2>with them when she most needed it. When the Spring

0:18:05.045 --> 0:18:07.845
<v Speaker 2>festival came up, a time when people hoped to meet

0:18:07.885 --> 0:18:11.365
<v Speaker 2>who they were going to marry, Yashen's stepmother told her

0:18:11.525 --> 0:18:16.085
<v Speaker 2>to stay home. So Yashin used her magical fishbones to

0:18:16.125 --> 0:18:19.525
<v Speaker 2>turn her rags into a beautiful gown, a cloak with

0:18:19.685 --> 0:18:24.205
<v Speaker 2>kingfisher feathers, and slippers woven in golden threads that looked

0:18:24.205 --> 0:18:28.125
<v Speaker 2>like fish scales. But like most stories, there was a

0:18:28.165 --> 0:18:34.445
<v Speaker 2>warning don't lose the slippers. Unfortunately, in order to avoid

0:18:34.485 --> 0:18:37.325
<v Speaker 2>being caught by her stepmother, Yashin had to flee the

0:18:37.365 --> 0:18:42.925
<v Speaker 2>festival and lost a slipper Immediately, her gown and cloak

0:18:43.005 --> 0:18:45.765
<v Speaker 2>returned to rags, and when she got back to her home.

0:18:46.045 --> 0:18:51.485
<v Speaker 2>The spirit of the fishbones was gone, although the slipper remained.

0:18:51.845 --> 0:18:57.685
<v Speaker 2>Yashin had lost her only friend. Later, a villager found

0:18:57.725 --> 0:19:00.245
<v Speaker 2>the lost slipper and sold it to a merchant, who

0:19:00.325 --> 0:19:03.485
<v Speaker 2>then took it to the king. The king marveled at

0:19:03.485 --> 0:19:06.685
<v Speaker 2>the slipper and realized he lust meet the woman it

0:19:06.725 --> 0:19:12.085
<v Speaker 2>belonged to. He realized it would take too long to

0:19:12.125 --> 0:19:15.605
<v Speaker 2>search for her. Instead, he had the slipper put on

0:19:15.685 --> 0:19:18.245
<v Speaker 2>display at the place where it was found for maidens

0:19:18.285 --> 0:19:18.885
<v Speaker 2>to try it on.

0:19:19.845 --> 0:19:20.885
<v Speaker 1>He waited all.

0:19:20.805 --> 0:19:26.765
<v Speaker 2>Day, but it fit no one, including yashen stepmother and stepsister. Then,

0:19:27.205 --> 0:19:30.165
<v Speaker 2>when the night was in its latest hour, the king

0:19:30.285 --> 0:19:33.805
<v Speaker 2>spotted yea Shen taking the slipper. At first, he thought

0:19:33.845 --> 0:19:36.485
<v Speaker 2>she was stealing it, until he saw how beautiful and

0:19:36.565 --> 0:19:39.885
<v Speaker 2>kind her face was. The king cracked her down and

0:19:39.925 --> 0:19:46.365
<v Speaker 2>married Yashen. As for the stepmother and stepsister, they were

0:19:46.405 --> 0:19:49.645
<v Speaker 2>forced to stay home in the caves, and later it

0:19:49.685 --> 0:19:52.485
<v Speaker 2>was said they were crushed to death by flying stones.

0:20:00.685 --> 0:20:06.485
<v Speaker 2>Fish are considered a symbol of prosperity. During this era,

0:20:06.725 --> 0:20:10.085
<v Speaker 2>people began keeping karp and a mutation change to carp

0:20:10.125 --> 0:20:14.085
<v Speaker 2>scales from silver to gold. Then people began to breed

0:20:14.125 --> 0:20:18.125
<v Speaker 2>the fish for the Golden Scales. An argument could be

0:20:18.205 --> 0:20:21.525
<v Speaker 2>made that not only was a fish alluding to Yushin's

0:20:21.565 --> 0:20:25.445
<v Speaker 2>prosperity in marrying the king, but also the prosperity of

0:20:25.485 --> 0:20:30.285
<v Speaker 2>the dynasty leading up to.

0:20:30.205 --> 0:20:31.245
<v Speaker 1>The Tong dynasty.

0:20:31.605 --> 0:20:34.445
<v Speaker 2>The collapse of the Han dynasty in two twenty a

0:20:34.645 --> 0:20:39.125
<v Speaker 2>d had left China divided for three hundred years. The

0:20:39.165 --> 0:20:43.285
<v Speaker 2>Sui dynasty then unified China, paving the way for the

0:20:43.325 --> 0:20:47.885
<v Speaker 2>Tong dynasty. Tong is considered one of the greatest empires,

0:20:48.405 --> 0:20:51.125
<v Speaker 2>not only because it was the Golden Age of arts

0:20:51.165 --> 0:20:54.565
<v Speaker 2>and culture, but also because it was a dynasty ruled

0:20:54.565 --> 0:20:59.885
<v Speaker 2>by benevolent leaders with economic growth and successful political endeavors.

0:21:03.125 --> 0:21:06.445
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't until the seventeenth century that the broad outlines

0:21:06.485 --> 0:21:10.405
<v Speaker 2>of the version of Cinderella we're most familiar with originated.

0:21:11.365 --> 0:21:15.085
<v Speaker 2>This time the story would be from France. When I

0:21:15.165 --> 0:21:18.685
<v Speaker 2>first started looking into Cinderella, I thought the Disney version

0:21:18.805 --> 0:21:21.565
<v Speaker 2>I grew up with was based on the Brother's Grim,

0:21:21.725 --> 0:21:25.685
<v Speaker 2>But it's not Disney pulled from the sixteen ninety seven

0:21:25.765 --> 0:21:29.565
<v Speaker 2>French story The Little Glass Slipper, written by Charles Perraut.

0:21:30.605 --> 0:21:32.925
<v Speaker 1>Pireaut had created his own spin on.

0:21:33.005 --> 0:21:38.525
<v Speaker 2>A darker Italian story of a woman named Zizzola. Zazzola,

0:21:38.845 --> 0:21:41.005
<v Speaker 2>or as a title of the story, is called The

0:21:41.085 --> 0:21:45.525
<v Speaker 2>Cat Cinderella, was written by John Battista Bazille in sixteen

0:21:45.605 --> 0:21:50.205
<v Speaker 2>thirty four. In The Cat Cinderella, Zazzola already has a

0:21:50.205 --> 0:21:53.005
<v Speaker 2>wicked stepmother who is married to her father, who is

0:21:53.045 --> 0:21:57.685
<v Speaker 2>a prince. Zizzola's governess convinces a girl to kill her

0:21:57.725 --> 0:22:03.085
<v Speaker 2>stepmother so the governess can marry the prince. Instead, Zizzola

0:22:03.205 --> 0:22:06.485
<v Speaker 2>murders her stepmother by dropping the life of the largest

0:22:06.525 --> 0:22:08.445
<v Speaker 2>dress trunk on the woman's neck.

0:22:08.325 --> 0:22:09.245
<v Speaker 1>And breaking it.

0:22:10.245 --> 0:22:13.525
<v Speaker 2>After she tricks her father into marrying the governess.

0:22:14.325 --> 0:22:15.925
<v Speaker 1>For a few days, things.

0:22:15.685 --> 0:22:18.725
<v Speaker 2>Are well, and during this time a dove from the

0:22:18.765 --> 0:22:22.405
<v Speaker 2>Island of the Fairies visits Zola and tells her that

0:22:22.485 --> 0:22:25.525
<v Speaker 2>if she ever needs anything, just come to the fairies

0:22:25.565 --> 0:22:36.045
<v Speaker 2>for help. Well, it wasn't long until the governess turned

0:22:36.045 --> 0:22:39.605
<v Speaker 2>out to be just as wicked. She brings forward six

0:22:39.725 --> 0:22:43.605
<v Speaker 2>daughters she had been hiding and slowly demotes Zola to

0:22:43.685 --> 0:22:48.205
<v Speaker 2>the place of a servant. Zizola becomes the Cat Cinderella

0:22:48.565 --> 0:22:53.365
<v Speaker 2>because she's no better than an animal. Later, the prince

0:22:53.445 --> 0:22:56.325
<v Speaker 2>goes on a trip and asks his stepdaughters what they

0:22:56.365 --> 0:22:56.805
<v Speaker 2>would like.

0:22:57.805 --> 0:22:59.445
<v Speaker 1>The response is riches.

0:23:00.245 --> 0:23:04.205
<v Speaker 2>Then, as a snub, he asks Zola if she wants anything.

0:23:04.925 --> 0:23:07.885
<v Speaker 2>She tells them a gift from the fairy isle. But

0:23:08.005 --> 0:23:10.805
<v Speaker 2>on top of asking for the gift, she also tells

0:23:10.885 --> 0:23:13.765
<v Speaker 2>him that if he doesn't follow through, he will never

0:23:13.845 --> 0:23:15.605
<v Speaker 2>be able to find his way home.

0:23:17.045 --> 0:23:17.925
<v Speaker 1>Lo and behold.

0:23:18.165 --> 0:23:21.245
<v Speaker 2>When he tries to sail back, he can't, So he

0:23:21.325 --> 0:23:24.405
<v Speaker 2>follows through on his promise to his daughter. The fairies

0:23:24.525 --> 0:23:28.845
<v Speaker 2>gave her a date tree. The date tree ends up

0:23:28.885 --> 0:23:32.165
<v Speaker 2>producing a fairy who asks Zzola what she wants.

0:23:33.205 --> 0:23:35.085
<v Speaker 1>Zizzola says to leave any.

0:23:34.925 --> 0:23:38.325
<v Speaker 2>Time without her sister's knowing, so the fairy gives her

0:23:38.365 --> 0:23:40.965
<v Speaker 2>a phrase to whisper to the tree whenever she wants

0:23:41.005 --> 0:23:44.165
<v Speaker 2>to leave, and a phrase to whisper when she returns.

0:23:44.365 --> 0:23:45.805
<v Speaker 1>To undo the magic.

0:23:46.765 --> 0:23:50.285
<v Speaker 2>On one feast day, Zazola waits until everyone leaves and

0:23:50.325 --> 0:23:52.685
<v Speaker 2>then goes to the date tree and makes her wish.

0:23:53.205 --> 0:23:56.325
<v Speaker 2>She has given a gown and slippers and a royal procession.

0:23:57.005 --> 0:24:02.285
<v Speaker 2>This happens three times over, each time grander than the last.

0:24:03.005 --> 0:24:06.405
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely smitten by her beauty and charm, the king wants

0:24:06.445 --> 0:24:10.725
<v Speaker 2>to learn who Zola is. He has a servant follow her,

0:24:10.885 --> 0:24:14.005
<v Speaker 2>but all three times Zzola shakes a servant off her

0:24:14.005 --> 0:24:18.365
<v Speaker 2>trail by tossing out gold and jewels. It's the third

0:24:18.405 --> 0:24:20.925
<v Speaker 2>time she shakes off the servant that she loses her

0:24:20.965 --> 0:24:25.405
<v Speaker 2>shoe by tossing it out. The king decides to hold

0:24:25.485 --> 0:24:29.965
<v Speaker 2>another feast, declaring all maidens must attend. He planned on

0:24:30.045 --> 0:24:33.885
<v Speaker 2>having all the maidens try the shoe. The prince, Zizola's

0:24:33.885 --> 0:24:37.925
<v Speaker 2>father tells the king his daughter hasn't been attending because quote,

0:24:38.245 --> 0:24:41.605
<v Speaker 2>she is a sorry, worthless creature, not fit to take

0:24:41.645 --> 0:24:44.565
<v Speaker 2>her place at the table where you eat. But the

0:24:44.645 --> 0:24:47.445
<v Speaker 2>king insists that she should be the first on the list,

0:24:47.605 --> 0:24:49.125
<v Speaker 2>since that's what he's decreed.

0:24:50.405 --> 0:24:51.125
<v Speaker 1>When it's z.

0:24:51.245 --> 0:24:54.925
<v Speaker 2>Zola's turn to try the slipper on it, quote jumps

0:24:54.965 --> 0:24:58.365
<v Speaker 2>to her foot like a moth of flame. Zizzola is

0:24:58.445 --> 0:25:00.805
<v Speaker 2>zen crowned and the other people are told to obey

0:25:00.885 --> 0:25:05.245
<v Speaker 2>her as queen. The Zelee has an extra element to

0:25:05.285 --> 0:25:08.965
<v Speaker 2>him version though at the very end, the stepsisters, who

0:25:09.045 --> 0:25:13.365
<v Speaker 2>are heartbroken and angry, confessed to their mother he is mad,

0:25:13.445 --> 0:25:17.165
<v Speaker 2>who would oppose the stars. It's as if what happened

0:25:17.525 --> 0:25:21.885
<v Speaker 2>was faded. It's easy to see how Perot's version was

0:25:21.925 --> 0:25:26.005
<v Speaker 2>able to build upon Bazilli's story. The foundations of Cinderella

0:25:26.205 --> 0:25:29.205
<v Speaker 2>most of us are familiar with are there, but Pero

0:25:29.445 --> 0:25:33.725
<v Speaker 2>just made them more magical, including the pumpkin turned carriage,

0:25:33.885 --> 0:25:42.365
<v Speaker 2>the fairy Godmother, and the glass slipper. At its core,

0:25:42.605 --> 0:25:46.765
<v Speaker 2>these tales of Cinderella are all about class reinforcing hierarchies

0:25:46.845 --> 0:25:51.165
<v Speaker 2>embedded in society, although some propose that it's a cautionary

0:25:51.205 --> 0:25:56.205
<v Speaker 2>tale about the consequences of mistreating children. However, in more

0:25:56.285 --> 0:26:01.605
<v Speaker 2>recent adaptations, Cinderella has evolved to reflect more modern sensibilities.

0:26:11.605 --> 0:26:14.805
<v Speaker 2>During the brother's grim time, it was typical for stepmothers

0:26:14.845 --> 0:26:19.285
<v Speaker 2>to be portrayed as wicked. Stepmothers were historically common due

0:26:19.285 --> 0:26:23.645
<v Speaker 2>to mothers dying during childbirth. This pitted stepmothers against their

0:26:23.685 --> 0:26:28.845
<v Speaker 2>stepchildren because of the intricacies of inheritance laws. Common knowledge

0:26:28.885 --> 0:26:33.485
<v Speaker 2>says that inheritance was passed down through male lineage. However,

0:26:33.725 --> 0:26:36.365
<v Speaker 2>if there were no male heirs or their father didn't

0:26:36.405 --> 0:26:40.045
<v Speaker 2>have a brother, money and land would sometimes be passed

0:26:40.085 --> 0:26:43.285
<v Speaker 2>down to the daughter. In cases where there was more

0:26:43.325 --> 0:26:48.405
<v Speaker 2>than one daughter, money and property would be split equally. Historically,

0:26:48.565 --> 0:26:53.045
<v Speaker 2>there was little opportunity for economic mobility. Inheritance was key

0:26:53.205 --> 0:26:57.125
<v Speaker 2>to maintaining social status. So if the stepmother had a

0:26:57.205 --> 0:27:00.445
<v Speaker 2>son and that was the only son, there wasn't a problem,

0:27:00.845 --> 0:27:03.285
<v Speaker 2>but you can see how it would cause a riff otherwise.

0:27:05.685 --> 0:27:09.125
<v Speaker 2>So at its heart, Cinderella is about class and how

0:27:09.205 --> 0:27:12.805
<v Speaker 2>people can rise through the ranks or fall to their ruin.

0:27:13.725 --> 0:27:17.685
<v Speaker 5>We see a lot of themes of the restoration of

0:27:17.765 --> 0:27:20.925
<v Speaker 5>the right way that things are meant to be happening here.

0:27:20.965 --> 0:27:25.165
<v Speaker 5>Cinderella is very often pitched as a rags to riches story,

0:27:25.245 --> 0:27:27.845
<v Speaker 5>and in some iterations it is, but in the most

0:27:27.885 --> 0:27:31.045
<v Speaker 5>common iterations of Western Europe it is a riches to

0:27:31.125 --> 0:27:32.325
<v Speaker 5>rags to riches story.

0:27:32.685 --> 0:27:35.685
<v Speaker 2>One of the easiest ways to maintain class or rise

0:27:35.725 --> 0:27:38.725
<v Speaker 2>in the ranks was to marry. That's why one of

0:27:38.765 --> 0:27:41.445
<v Speaker 2>the best ways to ensure marriage was to be beautiful

0:27:41.565 --> 0:27:42.645
<v Speaker 2>and pure of heart.

0:27:42.965 --> 0:27:45.885
<v Speaker 5>It is right that Cinderella have her wealth restored because

0:27:45.925 --> 0:27:49.165
<v Speaker 5>she is good and virtuous and young and beautiful. And

0:27:49.245 --> 0:27:52.685
<v Speaker 5>so we see all of those traits of positivity being

0:27:52.725 --> 0:27:58.165
<v Speaker 5>tied together and even at times leading directly to an

0:27:58.205 --> 0:28:01.285
<v Speaker 5>emphasis of the negativity on the other side of the spectrum.

0:28:01.445 --> 0:28:05.245
<v Speaker 5>After Cinderella gets married, the beautiful doves that accompany her

0:28:05.645 --> 0:28:08.365
<v Speaker 5>on her wedding day fly over to her sisters and

0:28:08.525 --> 0:28:13.165
<v Speaker 5>peck out their eyes like they are blinded and maimed

0:28:13.725 --> 0:28:18.485
<v Speaker 5>by the same magical helpers that assisted Cinderella into her

0:28:18.525 --> 0:28:21.445
<v Speaker 5>beautiful marriage and wedding and life as royalty.

0:28:21.485 --> 0:28:21.645
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:28:22.565 --> 0:28:26.845
<v Speaker 2>Newer adaptations have two different shifts. One is what is

0:28:26.885 --> 0:28:30.845
<v Speaker 2>considered to be a woman's success, and two is how

0:28:30.885 --> 0:28:33.285
<v Speaker 2>the stepmother and stepsisters are perceived.

0:28:33.885 --> 0:28:38.005
<v Speaker 5>Cinderella gives us a way to talk about womanhood that

0:28:38.205 --> 0:28:46.485
<v Speaker 5>lets us have a shared starting point to move from.

0:28:46.845 --> 0:28:50.045
<v Speaker 2>Let's circle back to the wildly popular Walt Disney film

0:28:50.085 --> 0:28:55.165
<v Speaker 2>released in nineteen fifty. Disney's adaptation pulled from Perrot's story

0:28:55.525 --> 0:28:58.325
<v Speaker 2>because it was more in line with America's notion that

0:28:58.405 --> 0:29:01.725
<v Speaker 2>a woman's success was that she married well, could stay

0:29:01.725 --> 0:29:04.725
<v Speaker 2>at home, didn't have to work, and had a well

0:29:04.805 --> 0:29:08.245
<v Speaker 2>kept house. It's also pretty cut and dry about who

0:29:08.325 --> 0:29:12.245
<v Speaker 2>was right and who was wrong. This still lines up

0:29:12.285 --> 0:29:16.005
<v Speaker 2>pretty strongly with the values from the earlier tales. But

0:29:16.125 --> 0:29:19.965
<v Speaker 2>then you have stories like Gregory Maguire's Confessions of an

0:29:20.045 --> 0:29:23.565
<v Speaker 2>Ugly Stepsister, which is told from Iris's point of view.

0:29:24.165 --> 0:29:25.645
<v Speaker 1>She is one of the stepsisters.

0:29:26.245 --> 0:29:30.045
<v Speaker 2>In this adaptation, it's not so much Cinderella versus her

0:29:30.085 --> 0:29:33.765
<v Speaker 2>stepsisters and stepmother, but outside power as the sisters are

0:29:33.765 --> 0:29:37.765
<v Speaker 2>fighting against. The book is sympathetic towards a stepmother and

0:29:37.765 --> 0:29:41.605
<v Speaker 2>stepsisters and shows that there could be more to the story.

0:29:42.685 --> 0:29:46.485
<v Speaker 2>In twenty twelve, Marissa Meyer wrote a book titled Cinder.

0:29:47.085 --> 0:29:52.405
<v Speaker 2>It was the first in the Lunar Chronicle series. The

0:29:52.485 --> 0:29:55.805
<v Speaker 2>adaptation is about a cyborg who goes on this journey

0:29:55.845 --> 0:29:59.365
<v Speaker 2>to help save the population from a plague. In the end,

0:29:59.885 --> 0:30:02.245
<v Speaker 2>Cinder and the crew that joins her along the way,

0:30:02.605 --> 0:30:07.125
<v Speaker 2>including Prince Kai, saved the day. Although Prince Kai and

0:30:07.205 --> 0:30:10.645
<v Speaker 2>Cender feel deeply about each other, they don't initially end

0:30:10.725 --> 0:30:15.365
<v Speaker 2>up together. Cinda wants to help Luna, where she's from,

0:30:15.925 --> 0:30:19.565
<v Speaker 2>form a democracy and gets stabilized, but she does tell

0:30:19.605 --> 0:30:22.325
<v Speaker 2>the Prince she will be his empress once she's in

0:30:22.325 --> 0:30:27.925
<v Speaker 2>a place to step down. In the twenty twenty one

0:30:28.085 --> 0:30:32.885
<v Speaker 2>Amazon primary make, Cinderella has big dreams of designing dresses

0:30:32.885 --> 0:30:36.405
<v Speaker 2>to sell at her own dress shop. Yes, she does

0:30:36.525 --> 0:30:39.285
<v Speaker 2>meet the Prince and they fall for each other, but

0:30:39.365 --> 0:30:43.005
<v Speaker 2>Cinderella is offered a job as a personal seamstress and

0:30:43.085 --> 0:30:45.565
<v Speaker 2>tells the prince he can come with her, but she's

0:30:45.645 --> 0:30:49.405
<v Speaker 2>taking the job. The prince agrees, gives up his right

0:30:49.485 --> 0:30:53.085
<v Speaker 2>to rule the kingdom, and both he and Cinderella sail

0:30:53.165 --> 0:30:56.725
<v Speaker 2>off so she can follow her dreams. It's a large

0:30:56.805 --> 0:30:59.885
<v Speaker 2>jump from the nineteen fifties notion of what it means

0:31:00.125 --> 0:31:05.125
<v Speaker 2>to be a successful woman. Also in this movie, Cinderella

0:31:05.165 --> 0:31:09.725
<v Speaker 2>forgets the stepsisters and stepmother. She understands and isn't mad

0:31:09.765 --> 0:31:14.485
<v Speaker 2>at them. The examples go on, but what we can

0:31:14.565 --> 0:31:16.765
<v Speaker 2>see is that what it is to be a woman

0:31:17.085 --> 0:31:20.245
<v Speaker 2>and how women relate to each other is reflected and

0:31:20.325 --> 0:31:22.485
<v Speaker 2>how the Cinderella story has been told.

0:31:23.485 --> 0:31:28.045
<v Speaker 5>And one interesting thing that folklorists are doing increasingly is

0:31:28.205 --> 0:31:33.405
<v Speaker 5>looking at how children actually perceive and talk about these

0:31:33.485 --> 0:31:36.525
<v Speaker 5>characters that they encounter through fairy tales through popular media.

0:31:37.205 --> 0:31:42.285
<v Speaker 5>And it's not always in the baseline way that we expect.

0:31:42.645 --> 0:31:45.085
<v Speaker 5>Young girls don't just see Cinderella and say I want

0:31:45.085 --> 0:31:46.805
<v Speaker 5>to be a princess who marries a prince I barely

0:31:46.805 --> 0:31:49.805
<v Speaker 5>know who's rich. Young girls will see Cinderella and want

0:31:49.845 --> 0:31:53.725
<v Speaker 5>to play as Cinderella and have adventures and want to

0:31:54.325 --> 0:31:57.405
<v Speaker 5>do different things or overcome the stepsisters in different ways.

0:31:58.365 --> 0:32:02.125
<v Speaker 2>As doctor McNeil also points out, there's a reason Cinderella

0:32:02.245 --> 0:32:05.205
<v Speaker 2>continues and will continue to change with time.

0:32:06.485 --> 0:32:10.205
<v Speaker 5>I mean, princesses as a model from fairy tales are

0:32:10.325 --> 0:32:13.845
<v Speaker 5>likely going nowhere right pop Culturally. It's an idea that

0:32:13.885 --> 0:32:15.725
<v Speaker 5>we love, whether it's on a historic front or a

0:32:15.765 --> 0:32:16.485
<v Speaker 5>fantasy front.

0:32:17.125 --> 0:32:20.445
<v Speaker 2>And by retelling Cinderella, we recast who we are today

0:32:20.605 --> 0:32:21.645
<v Speaker 2>and understand who.

0:32:21.605 --> 0:32:22.165
<v Speaker 1>We used to be.

0:32:23.365 --> 0:32:28.485
<v Speaker 5>And so when we manifest these stories in ways that

0:32:28.525 --> 0:32:33.085
<v Speaker 5>are relevant to us today, we are intrinsically commenting on

0:32:33.325 --> 0:32:36.845
<v Speaker 5>all the different ways they were relative in the past.

0:32:36.925 --> 0:32:40.525
<v Speaker 5>And that's really powerful, because that's not something we can

0:32:40.565 --> 0:32:43.605
<v Speaker 5>do with that same sense of intent or purpose. When

0:32:43.645 --> 0:33:05.805
<v Speaker 5>we tell a holy new story.

0:32:56.405 --> 0:33:00.805
<v Speaker 2>Cinderella, a tale of class, pain, hope, and sometimes magic.

0:33:01.565 --> 0:33:04.925
<v Speaker 2>Every iteration has something to add, a kernel of its

0:33:04.965 --> 0:33:08.205
<v Speaker 2>own truth to share. And there is one simple fact

0:33:08.365 --> 0:33:12.525
<v Speaker 2>to this story that has survived centuries. Almost everyone can

0:33:12.565 --> 0:33:17.845
<v Speaker 2>find something relatable to the persecuted heroine. There are more

0:33:17.885 --> 0:33:22.085
<v Speaker 2>brothers grim tales waiting to be explored. Take my hand

0:33:22.285 --> 0:33:24.125
<v Speaker 2>and let me lead you through.

0:33:23.965 --> 0:33:25.765
<v Speaker 1>The deep dark woods.

0:33:27.445 --> 0:33:31.085
<v Speaker 2>Next time we follow the breadcrumbs to a witch's House

0:33:38.965 --> 0:33:41.645
<v Speaker 2>the Deep Dark Woods is a production of School Humans

0:33:41.685 --> 0:33:45.965
<v Speaker 2>and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, and hosted by

0:33:46.005 --> 0:33:49.925
<v Speaker 2>me Miranda Hawkins. This episode was produced by Mike hal

0:33:50.045 --> 0:33:55.725
<v Speaker 2>June with senior producer Gabby Watts. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott,

0:33:56.085 --> 0:33:59.045
<v Speaker 2>Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Maya Howard.

0:33:59.965 --> 0:34:02.125
<v Speaker 1>Stories are voiced by Julia Christgau.

0:34:03.085 --> 0:34:06.805
<v Speaker 2>Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswang, who also sound

0:34:06.845 --> 0:34:10.565
<v Speaker 2>designed and mixed this episode. If you enjoyed the show,

0:34:10.805 --> 0:34:13.925
<v Speaker 2>please leave a review and you can follow along with

0:34:14.005 --> 0:34:16.205
<v Speaker 2>the show on Instagram at School of Humans.