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Speaker 1: Pam Hup cauling police, insisting someone is breaking into her home.

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Speaker 1: So how does this relate to another woman dead? Another

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Speaker 1: woman stabbed fifty five times? How is this connected to

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Speaker 1: an elaborate plot to nab one hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars life insurance and frame a guy. There's so many

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Speaker 1: dead bodies it's hard to keep up with them. You've

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Speaker 1: got Betsy Faria, her best friend with a life insurance policy,

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Speaker 1: stabbed fifty five times. You've got the death of the mom,

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Speaker 1: and you have the death of the so called intruder

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Speaker 1: Louis Gumpenburger. Let's just take one piece of the puzzle

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Speaker 1: at a time. How did we get here? Crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace one work? Mrgency? What's the address here? At?

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Speaker 1: Your wife? No? I'm not getting in the car with you. No,

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Speaker 1: why do I address? Get out? Get out? Get out, Tam?

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Speaker 1: What's the address you're at? Somebody breaking around? No? Hello, Oh,

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Speaker 1: ma'am can you hear me? Oh? What's the address you're at?

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Speaker 1: Is that real? You are hearing? Pam Huh on a

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Speaker 1: nine one one call saying someone is breaking into her home?

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Speaker 1: So how does this relate to another woman dead, another

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Speaker 1: woman stabbed fifty five times? How is this connected to

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Speaker 1: an elaborate plot to nab one hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars life insurance and frame a guy? I'm Meancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is crime stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Let's just take one piece of the puzzle at a time.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with more of that nine one one called

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Speaker 1: Pam Hup calling police insisting someone is breaking into her home.

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Speaker 1: Where are you at? Who broke into your home? I

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Speaker 1: don't know where's the out right here? I'd come on

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Speaker 1: the fire alarms are going up too. He is he inside? Yes?

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Speaker 1: Is he a white? Mol black? Moal? Holli, holli, holli.

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Speaker 1: He try to give me to take you into his car,

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Speaker 1: and like car, hli hi, We're have officers on the way. Ma'am.

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Speaker 1: Where are you at right now? In the homebag? Hy car?

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Speaker 1: He's still in the house. Okay? Can you run to

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Speaker 1: a neighbor's house. I don't think there's anybody home. I

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Speaker 1: stay here. I hit my dog, I hit my couppyp

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Speaker 1: with you. Okay. You're hearing more of that nine one

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Speaker 1: one call, and it just gets curiouser and curiouser as

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Speaker 1: they said, and Alice in Wonderland. That's them, not me.

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Speaker 1: I know it's supposed to be more and more curious

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Speaker 1: with me w CIV ABC for Charleston's and Amerson and Amerson,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. She didn't sound too upset to me

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Speaker 1: when she said somebody's breaking in at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: that nine one one call. She just gets more and

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Speaker 1: more adamant Nancy as she gets she goes along. She's

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Speaker 1: got a story and she's sticking to it. And and

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Speaker 1: this was an extraordinary way for her to to to

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Speaker 1: set all of this up and gets this going, she thought.

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Speaker 1: She told the nine one one U de fast, she

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Speaker 1: has somebody who is breaking into our home and and

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Speaker 1: she is going to do what it takes to get

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Speaker 1: them to believe it. But no, she sounds very calculated. Well,

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Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, listen to this. What's your name?

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Speaker 1: My name Sam? Yes? Where is it is? Anybody in

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Speaker 1: the home with you? Besides the subject to broken? No,

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Speaker 1: just my dog, just you and your dogs? Second, my

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Speaker 1: dog with me? Help? Please? Where are it? We have

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Speaker 1: help on the way. Let me know when you can

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Speaker 1: hear them. Okay, I should have an officer pulling up.

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Speaker 1: Do you see it's an unwhite car. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's just a white car. It's gonna be one of

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Speaker 1: our command's staff. Is he in a uniform? Here? Sez here? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you go talk to the officer. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it just gets more curious. Last thing I want you

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Speaker 1: to hear, Ann Emerson is our friends Saint Louis Fox

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Speaker 1: to Chris Hey. August tenth, twenty sixteen. Carol Alfred was

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Speaker 1: on the porch with her dog when Pam Hup drove by.

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Speaker 1: It was captured on this surveillance video. She waved. I

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Speaker 1: was like, okay, wave, you know. I thought maybe she

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Speaker 1: was new in the neighborhood. And she drove down the street,

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Speaker 1: came back, and she just pulled up behind my driveway

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Speaker 1: and she just sat there and she was just staring

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Speaker 1: at me. Alfred remembers bizarre questions starting with do you

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Speaker 1: babysit and ending with an offer to make a thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars if she'd go with Pam to do a nine

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Speaker 1: one one segment for the show dateline if I help her.

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Speaker 1: I can't bring my keys, my cigarettes, my cell phone,

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Speaker 1: or my wallet because the producer does not like clutter.

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Speaker 1: Alfred took her dog inside and wrabbed two knives. So

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Speaker 1: I put a folding pocket knife up the sleeve and

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Speaker 1: a kitchen knife from the front because I'm getting read

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Speaker 1: get into a stranger's car, but I'm pretty sure sure

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Speaker 1: is up to something illegal. Alfred did not even have

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Speaker 1: shoes on when she got in Hub's car. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was this close to her, rubbing elbows. I had the

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Speaker 1: one hand in my pocket like on the handle, because

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Speaker 1: if I had too, I was coming out this way

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Speaker 1: with it. It's hup. Talked about where they'd be shooting

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Speaker 1: the news segment. Alfred's gut told her the knives were

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Speaker 1: not enough protection. Something to myself. Right about now, best

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Speaker 1: excuse I can come up with to get out of

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Speaker 1: this car. We get to about here, and that's when

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Speaker 1: I told her that, you know, I got to go

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Speaker 1: back and get some shoes, lock my door because of

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Speaker 1: my husband's dog. Whatever. Right here's where she turned around

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Speaker 1: at and took me back to my house. Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: just a tip for the future. If you feel like

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Speaker 1: you have to hide knives on your body to get

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Speaker 1: in a car with someone, don't get in with me

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Speaker 1: an All Star panel, asked You Wilcot, judge, Trild, lawyer

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Speaker 1: anchor Court TV. You can find her at ask You

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Speaker 1: Wilcott dot com. Cloyd Steiger thirty six years Seattle, PD,

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Speaker 1: author of Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer, Gary Jane Grant at

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Speaker 1: Cloyd Steiger dot com. Renowned psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com, the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner for the State of South Carolina, author of

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation Field Guy, doctor Michelle Dupree. But now I

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Speaker 1: need An Emerson w CIV ABC four Charles to explain

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Speaker 1: to me how this woman Pam Hupp is driving around posing,

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Speaker 1: as I think she said at Dateline, NBC producer, enticing

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Speaker 1: people into her car. How does that fit with her

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Speaker 1: obviously fake nine one one call when she shoots a

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Speaker 1: quote and shrewder okay put them together for me. Ann Emerson.

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Speaker 1: This is such an elaborate hoax and she's pulling from

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Speaker 1: her resources. Honestly, you know, she's been under a lot

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Speaker 1: of scrutiny with Dateline. She knew that they did these

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Speaker 1: kind of elaborate sort of scenarios of re enactments, and

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Speaker 1: she saw a way out. She saw a way to

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Speaker 1: not only use what she knew about television to be

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Speaker 1: able to start to give They had already been covering

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Speaker 1: her and what she was up to. And now wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: why are they covered? Why is Look if you see

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Speaker 1: Dateline NBC picking through your trash, Okay, you better call

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Speaker 1: a defense attorney right then, because they are experts at

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Speaker 1: sniffing out a crime. All right. So you're telling me

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Speaker 1: An Emerson w CIV that they're looking at her for

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Speaker 1: some other crime, and she figures out a way to

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Speaker 1: what get out of it all. She's looking for a

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Speaker 1: way to pen that crime on and keep the heat

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Speaker 1: off of her. The scrutiny was starting to start, was

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Speaker 1: already coming in her direction full force for a crime

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Speaker 1: that had been committed five years prior. And this was

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Speaker 1: her best friend. Uh, I guess you're talking about the

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Speaker 1: death of Betsy Faria. Yeah. Well, as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: speaking of the death the murder of Betsy Faria, listen

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Speaker 1: to this nine on one call Kenny nine one one

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Speaker 1: is the location of your emergency, Okay, ma'am, Hello, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I need you to take a couple of teep for

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Speaker 1: us so I can see what's going on. What is

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Speaker 1: the address where you need us to come? Okay? Who

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Speaker 1: am I speaking with? Russell? What's going on there? To

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Speaker 1: m hm? Okay Russell? I need you to colmt down, honey, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I need you to calm down. Take a couple deep breasts.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get somebody on the way there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what what did she do? Do you know? Okay? Okay,

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Speaker 1: come down, honey. Is she breathing at all? She is

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Speaker 1: not breathing? Time stories with Nancy Grace Brussel. Is there

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Speaker 1: anybody that we can call for you? Okay Brussel, take

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Speaker 1: a couple of deep breaths on Okay, Okay. What is

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Speaker 1: your mom's name? I'm sorry, I can't understand your hun Lucy?

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Speaker 1: And what's her last name? How old is your wife?

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Speaker 1: Two forty two? Okay, and you're for sure she's not

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Speaker 1: breathing right now? Okay? What is your mother's phone number?

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Speaker 1: You are hearing a highly distraught I'm on one caller.

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Speaker 1: That's Russ Pharia. Now his wife is Betsy Faria. But

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Speaker 1: right then he's talking about his mom, missus Gumpenberger. Okay,

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Speaker 1: an Emerson. I got so many dead bodies and plots

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Speaker 1: and twists and turns. Let's just start where every investigation starts.

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Speaker 1: Who died first? Well, it was Betsy Faria December twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: just a couple of days after Christmas in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 1: she found stabbed fifty five times in her Missouri home.

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Speaker 1: And from there we get twists and turns and wives

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Speaker 1: and who was involved and who she was involved with.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand, Betsy Faria, age forty three, is

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Speaker 1: found stabbed dead. What don't you have fifty five stab wounds?

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Speaker 1: Was that right? I tried, and they found they found

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Speaker 1: the weapon in her neck. It was still in her neck.

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Speaker 1: It was very griggly, extremely grizzly. Who at that same

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Speaker 1: crime scene? Is there another dead body? No, there's a

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Speaker 1: good body at that crime scene. From what I understand,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until a couple of years later when the mother,

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Speaker 1: a woman named Shirley Newman, has passed away. There's no

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Speaker 1: concerning this poor elderly lady had fallen over a balcony.

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Speaker 1: She turns out to be Pamla Hup's mother. That's the

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Speaker 1: second one, and that's in twenty thirteen. Okay, so we've

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Speaker 1: got Betsy freastab dad with a knife in her neck.

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Speaker 1: We've got Pam Hup's mother dead from falling over a

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Speaker 1: what a railing A balcony railing from the third floor.

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Speaker 1: They say that she just fell out, but of course

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Speaker 1: there are so many inconsistencies and the work that's been

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Speaker 1: done on a journalistic level to try and recreate that

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Speaker 1: ball has been I mean you have to just say

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Speaker 1: it's impossible. I mean the way they showed how that

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Speaker 1: what should have to be like an Olympic gymnast to

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Speaker 1: get over that rail. Okay, who is Louis Guppenberger? That

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Speaker 1: another dead body? That is that's that's number three and

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Speaker 1: this is where she where we start wondering do we

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Speaker 1: have a serial? Let me guess, is that the quote intruder?

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Speaker 1: That's the intruder thirty three year old man? And I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that with big quoties. Okay, who's Lewis Gumpenberger. He's

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Speaker 1: a thirty three year old man. He has some mental

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Speaker 1: deficiencies from a serious car accident that he was in

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Speaker 1: much many years earlier, childlike as well as how he

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Speaker 1: was described by his family and he ends up dead

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Speaker 1: in Pamela Hupp's home. Oh, hold on, I've got dead

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Speaker 1: bodies coming out of my ears. As she Willcot judge, trial, lawyer,

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Speaker 1: anchor court TV. You can find her as she Wilcott

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Speaker 1: to come. This woman, pam Hupp, everybody around her, they

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Speaker 1: just die. They fall over railings, they get staffed fifty

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Speaker 1: five times that nobody knows what happened. And then one

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Speaker 1: gets gun down because he's in her home. Then you've

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Speaker 1: got a live victim on her ports when Hup drives

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Speaker 1: up and tells her she's dateline producer and to come

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Speaker 1: along with her if she wants to make some money,

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Speaker 1: but she can't bring her car keys, or her cell

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Speaker 1: phone or her walk because producers don't like clutter. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, I know I'm just painting with a

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Speaker 1: broad stroke, but there's no doubt my mind skilled. All

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Speaker 1: three bodies are piling up around this woman. Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: have you ever known somebody where their whole reason for

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Speaker 1: living is some kind of nefarious purpose and that's all

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Speaker 1: they think about. Maybe it's a man who continually prays

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Speaker 1: on women because he wants to get money from them,

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Speaker 1: or a con artist who will approach certain people at

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Speaker 1: work so he can get them to put life insurance

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Speaker 1: policies into his name. Some people have one singular crime

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Speaker 1: in mind and everything around them is organized around that crime.

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Speaker 1: Let's think of a pedophile, where all they think about

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Speaker 1: a children. So maybe they hang out of the school

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Speaker 1: bus stop. Maybe they become pastors, maybe they become teachers.

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Speaker 1: I think what we're going to learn about Pamela Hup

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Speaker 1: is she had a singular motive that drove her life.

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Speaker 1: This motive was like an obsession. But what was it?

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Speaker 1: What was she able to get from all of these victims.

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Speaker 1: I think that if you follow that trail, we will

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Speaker 1: understand the psyche of Pamela Hup. You know, I'm listening

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Speaker 1: again to Russfaria calling nine one one, and I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: I'm just from what I heard that's real. He has

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with this. His anguish and I've never

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Speaker 1: met the man, but I'm telling you his anguish is real.

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Speaker 1: Taken Listen to what the medical examiner says about Betsy

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Speaker 1: faria stabbing death. Listen to this. Two days after Christmas

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Speaker 1: twenty eleven, Russfaria called nine one one said he thought

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Speaker 1: his wife, Betsy old herself. A medical examiner said she

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Speaker 1: was stabbed fifty five times, her arms nearly severed, most

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Speaker 1: of the stabbings after she was dead. A crime of passion.

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Speaker 1: When you stabbed somebody over fifty times, it's usually a

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Speaker 1: crime of passion, a husband or wife. I felt right

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Speaker 1: away this was Russ, the immediate suspect, the husband Russpharia.

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Speaker 1: For the first time. You're hearing and seeing evidence likenine

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Speaker 1: one table and interrogations. You have a blue dad over

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Speaker 1: twenty five times. Oh my god, no, five times, over

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Speaker 1: twenty five times. And they're not done yet. They're still

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Speaker 1: they're still counting. The major case squad questioned him for days.

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Speaker 1: God has in this room with over right now, and

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Speaker 1: God knows that I did not do this. He did

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Speaker 1: not back down. I did not do this. I did

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Speaker 1: not do it. You are hearing the husband, Russpharia, defending himself.

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Speaker 1: But I want you to listen to tell me what

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Speaker 1: you think about this night one we'll call. Listen to

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Speaker 1: his voice. Wrestle around the way, hunh okay, it'll be

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Speaker 1: there shortly. Is there anybody else there in the house

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Speaker 1: with you? Wrestle, take a couple of deep breaths. Honey, Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I don't know how

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Speaker 1: if he's an actor, he deserves an oscar because sounds

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Speaker 1: real to me. But according to her family, According to

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Speaker 1: Betsy Faria's family, he had about one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: thousand motives for murder. Russ's motive for murder did not

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Speaker 1: come out, but Betsy's family believes he did have motive.

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Speaker 1: Betsy's sister told me that she believes Russ found out

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Speaker 1: that Betsy was making life insurance plans crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Russ's motive for murder did not come out,

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Speaker 1: but Betsy's family believes he did have motive. Betsy's sister

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Speaker 1: told me that she believes Russ found out that Betsy

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Speaker 1: was making life insurance plans. Tell me about some of

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Speaker 1: these plans that she was making. She was planning on

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Speaker 1: making some videos to say say things to her her

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Speaker 1: daughters during milestones of their lives, and also parcel out

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Speaker 1: the proceeds of her life insurance at those same milestones.

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Speaker 1: You know, X thousand dollars when one graduates from college,

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Speaker 1: you know ten thousand here to buy a car. That

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. So the insurance proceeds was more about

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Speaker 1: leaving a lasting legacy, that the money would be used

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Speaker 1: for a positive, lasting memory. Right, Well, let's back it up, guys.

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Speaker 1: Just then, though you were hearing from our friends at

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Speaker 1: Fox Too. That was reporter Chris Hayes speaking with Robert

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Speaker 1: Patrick to Ann Emerson WCIV, ABC four Charleston, Betsy free

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Speaker 1: As a murder was so brutal. What can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about the crime scene and what does it tell

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Speaker 1: us about her killer? Well, you know, the crime scene

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Speaker 1: was in Betsy Frea's house and basically to get stopped

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Speaker 1: fifty five times. They say that she was also stabbed.

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Speaker 1: After the facts, she was stabbed in the neck. There

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Speaker 1: was a weapon found in our neck. They found all

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Speaker 1: of these indications that it was obviously a brutal, a

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Speaker 1: grizzly crime, but they certainly were setting it up control.

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Speaker 1: The interesting thing though, a couple of interesting things. They

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Speaker 1: found some slippers and this is one of the pieces

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Speaker 1: of event of evidence they really used to go after

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Speaker 1: Rascaria her husband with this, and that was a pair

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Speaker 1: of slippers that were found in the closet and they

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Speaker 1: had blood splattered on them. After they really started looking

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Speaker 1: at those slippers, and a lot of people had put

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Speaker 1: some their two cents into us. Those slippers didn't make sense,

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Speaker 1: and we're not we're not working with the evidence, but

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Speaker 1: for whatever purposes, those were the slippers that helped convict

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Speaker 1: him the first time around. To doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst

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Speaker 1: and Beverly Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany was the crime scene to tell you, especially the

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Speaker 1: post mortem attack, Betsy's arms were almost severed. Well, it

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Speaker 1: tells me that the perfect trader was trying to make

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Speaker 1: it look like a crime of passion. And remember, all

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Speaker 1: of the dead bodies in our story have in common

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Speaker 1: some very elaborate dramatic ruse to lure in the victims. Right,

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Speaker 1: Hup tries to get somebody sitting on her porch to

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Speaker 1: get in his car. Hup has the nine one one

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Speaker 1: call where she says and intruders in her house. Now

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Speaker 1: we have one of Hup's best friends who's terminally ill,

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Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, her arms almost severed, as if it's

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Speaker 1: a crime of passion. It makes me wonder if there's

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Speaker 1: some crazy, obsessed person wandering around out there who has

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Speaker 1: some motive for Frea's death, but wants to frame it

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Speaker 1: as if her husband killed her. Betsy free'stab fifty five times,

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Speaker 1: her husband immediately becoming the prime suspect. She's founded in

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Speaker 1: her home just two days after Christmas and small to

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Speaker 1: him Missouri, Troy, Missouri. Her husband Russ, finds her body

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Speaker 1: in a pool of blood when he comes home from

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Speaker 1: game night with friends. He calls nine one one. He

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Speaker 1: believes his wife had killed herself because of her cancer prognosis.

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Speaker 1: She had spoken of suicide in the past because of

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Speaker 1: the cancer. He sees slashes on her wrists and a

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Speaker 1: kitchen knife sticking out of her neck. He had no idea,

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Speaker 1: according to him, that she had been murdered. He says,

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Speaker 1: everybody loved Betsy. She was so positive, she made a

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Speaker 1: smile all the time. He says, Anne Emerson that he

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Speaker 1: spoke to her at five pm that day. He says

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Speaker 1: she told him pam Hupp was giving her a ride home.

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Speaker 1: Was the husband ever prosecuted for her murder? Anne, He

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Speaker 1: was absolutely prosecuted and sent to prison for three years.

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Speaker 1: Ruspharia Went was convicted of killing Betsy. Pamela Hup stayed

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Speaker 1: out of that fray because there was enough investigation that

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Speaker 1: was going on around Rasparia, because there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who said their marriage wasn't perfect, everything wasn't fantastic.

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Speaker 1: So there was just enough conversation going on during these

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Speaker 1: investigations that they kept looking at Raspaia and they were

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Speaker 1: not looking at Pamela Hup, who is the one that

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Speaker 1: actually dropped her off at the house. He goes to

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Speaker 1: prison for three years and a new trial is ordered

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Speaker 1: because there's an incredible piece of evidence that comes into play.

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Speaker 1: There was never allowed to go in front of the jury.

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Speaker 1: And this is you know, I think when they kind

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Speaker 1: of done a little Monday morning quarterbacking on this. Can't

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Speaker 1: believe the jury didn't hear. It's hard to believe they

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Speaker 1: didn't hear this piece of evidence that would have just

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Speaker 1: sent all eyes going straight towards Hup, and he didn't.

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Speaker 1: So that and what is what is the evidence? It

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Speaker 1: was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars life insurance policy

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Speaker 1: that Betsy Faria had signed over to her friend pam

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Speaker 1: La Houp. Well, as a matter of fact, based on

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Speaker 1: Anne Emerson, WCIV is just saying I want you to hear.

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Speaker 1: Fox to reporter Chris Hayes, Pam Hopp was the beneficiary

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Speaker 1: of a one hundred and fifty thousand dollars life insurance

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Speaker 1: policy paid out after the stabbing death of Betsy Faria.

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Speaker 1: A Lincoln County judge did not allow a jury to

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Speaker 1: hear about Hupp's financial windfall or the fact that Frea's

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Speaker 1: life insurance policy was signed over into Hupp's name just

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Speaker 1: days before the murder. A jury then convicted Frea's husband, Russ.

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Speaker 1: In the court record, Hupp first claimed she was made

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Speaker 1: beneficiary to help Betsy's daughter. Now Hupp is changing her story,

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Speaker 1: saying in this newly filed temporary restraining order the money

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Speaker 1: belongs to her. Now another judge is stepping in. A

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Speaker 1: Saint Charles County judge just granted this temporary restraining order

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Speaker 1: against Pam hop or anyone acting on her behalf. They're

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Speaker 1: prohibited from removing funds from their bank accounts or selling

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Speaker 1: their O'Fallon Miss Jory home to Anne Emerson WCIV, ABC

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Speaker 1: four Charleston, what can you tell me about newly released

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Speaker 1: recordings of Hub's phone conversations. She has documented her conversations

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Speaker 1: with her husband Mark up in prison. Methodically, this is

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Speaker 1: a woman. I'm not a psychologist, but boy, doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like she's building a case for herself as she goes

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Speaker 1: through as a woman in control, as a woman calculated.

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Speaker 1: And what we heard in these caps that release, these

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Speaker 1: conversations she had with her husband, it's all about gaining

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Speaker 1: that self control and her image. It's it's remarkable that

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Speaker 1: she keeps on going back to how she is protecting

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Speaker 1: other people in her life. The coolness of the whole

377
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: conversations that she has is the really really speaks to

378
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: her ability to orchestrate all of these different scenarios that

379
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Speaker 1: have been going on on and she just doesn't let up.

380
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: It's there's a lot of money in her mind that

381
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: she can This is part of how she's playing this out.

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00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: And she understands life insurance policies. She worked in the

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Speaker 1: business of life insurance companies. She knows how these things work.

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Speaker 1: And this isn't the only life insurance policy that she

385
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: could gain them if this person died, I mean her

386
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Speaker 1: mom to Chloyd Steiger thirty six years Seattle, PD. What

387
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: about these newly released phone conversations, What are they and

388
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: what do they show. Well, she's having recorded jail conversations

389
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Speaker 1: talking to her husband, and he seems to not understand

390
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: why she'd taken Alfred Lee or basically plead guilty, and

391
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: she says things like, oh, I just wanted to spare

392
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Speaker 1: my family an ugly trial. What innocent person would plead

393
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Speaker 1: out to a murder just to spare their family from

394
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Speaker 1: an ugly trial. It's ridiculous. And she's so calm about

395
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Speaker 1: it and everything. And I'd like to, speaking of calmness,

396
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Speaker 1: I want to go back of the nine one one

397
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: calls to juxtapose her to that of rus Faria. When

398
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Speaker 1: Russ is calling no One when you were right, he's distraught,

399
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: he can't even give his mother's name. But when Pam

400
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: makes a nine one one call, she's all distraught and

401
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: screaming until she says, is anyone with you? And she says,

402
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: almost a conversation, oh I have my dogs with me.

403
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 1: She's called again, that's not the way it is. You're

404
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: either hyped up all the time or you're not. And

405
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: so she's obviously feeding that call, and it would just

406
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: it's just unreal. It's a great call for the prosecutor.

407
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: There's so many dead bodies. It's hard to keep up

408
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: with them. You've got Betsy Faria, her best friend with

409
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: a life insurance policy, stabbed fifty five times. The husband

410
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: gets the fall on that and goes to jail. You've

411
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: got the death of the mom, and you have the

412
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: death of the so called intruder Lewis Gumpenburger. As she Willcott,

413
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: she agrees to an Alfred play to quote say, her

414
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: family a trial. What's an Alfred play? Ashley? First of all,

415
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: I think she's crazy, see like a fox. And then

416
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: second and Alfred plea, Nancy has win for future crimes.

417
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: The guilty plea cannot be used against the defendant. Right,

418
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: so she's saying, I'm not going to admit my guilt.

419
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna not say that I did it, but I

420
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: will enter an Alfred plea. And the issue I have

421
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Speaker 1: with this is in this case, I think she's trying

422
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: to do it so it cannot be used against her

423
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: for these other acts. So Anne Emerson, what does she

424
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: say in a nutshell on the recorded phone calls? Well,

425
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: she says that she's not doing it to save her family.

426
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: She doesn't want her family to suffer through any more.

427
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: Than they have to there, she's kind of throwing it

428
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: out there to her husband. Her husband, Mark Hoppu's been

429
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: talking to her throughout this whole ordeal, is stunned. From

430
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: what we understand, he's stunned into silence because he didn't

431
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: expect her to see an Alfred plea. It's actually, and

432
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: what I understand, pretty uncommon to do something like this.

433
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: But now the things they're starting to line up that well,

434
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: now if she does this, not only does she not

435
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: have to that that information will not be possibly put

436
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: in for maybe if Pamela Hup's case gets reinvestigated, as

437
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: of course it's going to be now, or her mother's

438
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: case being reinvestigated just can't get brought up. But also

439
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: she just avoided the death penalty. In Missouri Crime Stories

440
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, pam Hut drives all over Saint Charles

441
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: County looking for someone she could get in her car

442
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: convince them to make a fake nine one one call

443
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: so she could execute the person while they were on

444
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: the phone with nine one one. Okay, that is her

445
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: attempt to take blame off herself. How was it supposed

446
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: to work? And in a nutshell, well, she has figured

447
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: out a way to get that scrutiny off of her.

448
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: She now looks like this victim of someone who's trying

449
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: to hurt her, and that person she actually is trying

450
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: to put it back on the husband who has now

451
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: been released from prison acquitted for the crime of killing

452
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,239
Speaker 1: his wife. Now they're wondering who's killed Betsy Faria and

453
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: Gonthenberger becomes her fall guy. As now this has turned

454
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: into an elaborate hoax that Russ Paria, her best friend's

455
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: husband who's been acquitted, is now trying to come after

456
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: Pamela Hut to dagor Bethany Marshall. This woman clearly a

457
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: serial killer. Pam Hut allegedly takes a lot of the

458
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: plate stranger Louis Guppenberger in some crazy attempt to frame

459
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: the husband for killing his wife Betsy. How diabolical is

460
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: her plan to throw police off her trail Nancy. She

461
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: has the mentality of a serial killer and more. I mean,

462
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: if there are three bodies that's in succession with each other,

463
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: that's serial murder, right. I think first of all, there's

464
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: something about killing people that is very delightful for her

465
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: and gives her a sense of power. I think. Secondly,

466
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: like a serial killer, she trolls for her victims. I mean,

467
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: you ever, we cover all the time these serial killers

468
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: where there's almost one person who got away. The woman

469
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: who was sitting on the porch, got in her car

470
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: and then got back out is the one who got away,

471
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: right because she potentially would have been murdered. Unlike serial killers,

472
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: where the motivation is usually sexual fadaism, her motivation was

473
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: a life insurance policy, and in order to get the

474
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: life insurance policy, she was highly manipulative. Even on those

475
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: jail house phone calls that were recorded, she's trying to

476
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: manipulate her own husband. What's interesting, though, is she, in

477
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: some ways, as Ashley Wilcott says, she's crazy like a fox,

478
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: but in others she's very stupid. Like most criminal she

479
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: has lack of cause and effect thinking. She has no

480
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: insight into how she appears to others. She actually thinks

481
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: she's kind of low functioning as well as clever and manipulative.

482
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: You know, the suspicious death of Hub's mother. Surely I

483
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: don't really buy to you, doctor Michelle Dupree, South Carolina

484
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: medical examiner, that she fell from her own balcony. What

485
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: would you expect to find, Well, Nancy, I would expect

486
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: one thing. Typically, balcony is too tall for you to fall,

487
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: so I would really want to see that crumb scene.

488
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: I'd want to see how tall she is. I'd want

489
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: to see where the balcony is. And then of course

490
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: we have to live the injuries a fall. From the

491
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: three stories, you are going to have massive injuries, massive

492
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: broken bones, and where she falls and how those bones

493
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: are both broken are also going to play into this.

494
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: To you and Emerson WCIV ABC for Charleston, tell me

495
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: about the death of Pam Houp's own mother and why

496
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: would she kill her own mother. Well, you know one

497
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: thing about this kind scene is they when they sort

498
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: of reenacted it and you could see sort of that

499
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: actual scene after it had happened, the top railing, just

500
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: to put it out there that top railing was still intact.

501
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: In fact, it looks like somebody and they actually showed

502
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: how someone could kick those railings and get the same

503
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: level of damage to the railings as if what they

504
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: were saying and originally that she had actually gone through

505
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: the bottom part of the railings without touching the top railing.

506
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: So you have that inconsistency right there. That's so hard

507
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: for to understand. But why did she go after her mom? Well,

508
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: if she is as ruthless as they allege, then she

509
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: was looking for money and there was a life insurance

510
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: policy there as well. Now did she actually think out

511
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: of that life insurance policy? That I think is still

512
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: up for a question, because I've seen reports that she

513
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: actually didn't make any that much money off of the

514
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: life insurance. But we don't know what happened behind his

515
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: closed doors with her mom. What did her mom know?

516
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: What did she not know? We also know that Saint

517
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: Louis County Chief Medical Examiner Mary Case change the manner

518
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: of death from him Hup's mom from accidental to undetermined.

519
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: That's a big deal. Hup's mother, Shirley Newman found dead

520
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: below the balcony of your senior Apart aren't meant. Two

521
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: police investigators and cases colleague deemed it an accent. But

522
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: then they take another look after Hup fatally shoots an

523
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: unknown mentally disabled man in an elaborate plot to divert

524
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: attention from herself when she was being investigated for that

525
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: fatal stabbing of her friend. I don't know how she

526
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: thought that would throw off cops because somebody dies in

527
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: her home. But to Cloyd Steiger, how do you believe

528
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: that authorities could figure out that Hupp's mother, Shirley Newman's

529
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: death was not an accident. Well, I see the pictures

530
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: of that rail. I mean, I think what death investigator

531
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: would look at that and so, yeah, that could happen.

532
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: It couldn't. I don't know how much this woman wade,

533
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: but it took a lot of force they knock out

534
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: those lower vertical posts in that rail, and to go

535
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: underneath that all three flours. I would have been skeptical

536
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: of just looking at it, and you would think even

537
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: a patrol officer would go, what, I don't think that's

538
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: right because it doesn't look like that could happen. So

539
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: I'm surprised they, as quickly as they did called it

540
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: an accident instead of undetermined from the beginning. I'm glad

541
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: they're looking at it more. But it it just doesn't say, well,

542
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't it true this woman had arthritis? It

543
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Doctor Bethany Marshall, Shirley Newman had arthritis,

544
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 1: and I find it very difficult to believe she could

545
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: just leap over that rail at a senior home and die. Well,

546
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: first of all, if you have lived that long life

547
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: and you're not suicidal, there's no reason you are going

548
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: to jump off a balcony. That railing is high. Someone

549
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: had to have picked her up and thrown her over.

550
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: Apparently she had ambient in her system as well. I

551
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: don't know how that plays in, but I will say

552
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: I once treated a female patient who was obsessed with

553
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: the life insurance policy that her mother had gotten. So

554
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: she came to therapy to emplore me to call the

555
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,959
Speaker 1: mother and give the money to her. She actually sent

556
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 1: a letter to the local police department saying, I dar

557
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: as if it was from her mother, saying I am

558
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: so sorry. I took a life insurance policy from my

559
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: husband that was meant for my daughter and I didn't

560
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: give it to her. So I know it's a little convoluted,

561
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: but the mindset of this patient was that she stalked

562
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 1: the mother for the money. So I would imagine hup

563
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: had a long history of stalking all of these people

564
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: from whom she was trying to procure life insurance policy.

565
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: I've got something to stop everybody in your tracks, and

566
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: a videotape interview before the first trial of her friend

567
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: Russell Faria, remember he got framed on his wife's murder.

568
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: Hut was discussing the possibility that defense lawyers for russ

569
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: would try to blame her, and she told a detective

570
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: and I quote, my mom's worth half a million that

571
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: I get when she dies. This is in a recorded interview.

572
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: If I really wanted money, there's an easier way than

573
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: trying to combat somebody that's physically stronger than me. A

574
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: half a million dollars including ten grand life insurance and

575
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: about three hundred thousand dollars of other investments, plus other assets.

576
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: And Emerson, there's a motive right there for killing her

577
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: own mother. Shirley Newman, Hello, and it sure is, it

578
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: absolutely is. And when she is starting to think about

579
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: these life insurance policies, this is what she does for

580
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: a living, she is, this is her expertise. She's been

581
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: writing life insurance policies and working for these companies for years.

582
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: And there's even some evidence that she forged her name

583
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: on a couple of life insurance policies way back when.

584
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: So now you're you've got these allegations that maybe she

585
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: under she's a smart lady, and she's looking at her

586
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: mom saying, wait a minute, I'm right, there is more

587
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: out there. There are more ways for me to So

588
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: how was it and and how was it that she

589
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: got Betsy Faria's life insurance. Shouldn't that have gone to

590
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: Betsy's family? Well, you know, that's a whole complicated story

591
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: in itself. Where she had her sign over her life

592
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: insurance policies, she gained her trust, she gained her her adoration,

593
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: and said, I will take care of your kids. I

594
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 1: will make sure that they get the money they need

595
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: when they need it. There was a lot of supposedly

596
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: concerned about whether or not Russ would you know, bring

597
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: that in And why did she take an Alfred play

598
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: on Louis gouvin Meyer's murder. She took an Alfred please,

599
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: so that she didn't have to put that evidence towards

600
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 1: another trial if she ended up getting in trouble for

601
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: what happened to Betsy. Exactly, she's got a little Exactly

602
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: explain that Ash willcott Alfred please specifically cannot be used

603
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: against you and an Alfred plead the defendant is not

604
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: admitting guilt, Nancy. That's the key. They are not saying

605
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: that they did it, but rather they're deciding, Okay, it's

606
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: more advantageous for me to enter this plea, to get

607
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: through this, to deal with it, than to go to trial.

608
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: But the advantage of an Alfred plea is it cannot

609
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 1: be used against a defendant in any other crime. Another question.

610
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 1: The plea deal in the Gumpenburger murder takes the death

611
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: penalty off the table when she took that Alfred play

612
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: on Gumpenberger, the menally ill person. But what about when

613
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 1: she's tried for Betsy Faria's murdyr Anne, Will she face

614
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: the death penalty? She could? I mean, that's a totally

615
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: different trial for for what we see. I mean, yeah,

616
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: she might get off for one, but she did not necessarily.

617
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: But now the evidence is not as strong because because

618
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: of the Alfred Please, she's been able to get some

619
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: of her this evidence off of the table. So if

620
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: it goes back to trial, she certainly is sitting there.

621
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 1: What do you mean evidence is off the table? Well,

622
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: she has, she's admitted guilt with actually having to to

623
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: deal with it. It's not something that can be readmitted

624
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: into evidence. Okay, hold on, just a moment to Ashley

625
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: Wilcot on an alphad plea. When you enter this alpha

626
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: plea and you say I'm guilty, what actually you take

627
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,240
Speaker 1: your sentence, but you don't say I'm guilty. The facts

628
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: in the alpha case I believe can still be brought

629
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 1: into evidence, just your plea cannot. I would agree with you,

630
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: the facts in that case can be brought into evidence

631
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: against you in other cases. I completely agree with that,

632
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: but not the fact that you've entered any kind of

633
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: agreement or plea or admission or it's not an admission,

634
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: but that you've entered a plea in that case. We

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Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds and the brutal murder of Betsy

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Speaker 1: far Rhea Nancy Grace Crime story signing off Goodbye Fact