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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. I'm very tempted to say

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Speaker 1: there ain't no justice. But instead of saying there ain't

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Speaker 1: no justice, instead I'll say, now is the time to

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Speaker 1: dig in and fight. Why in the last days, a

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Speaker 1: stunning blow to a very loving, wonderful family that I

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Speaker 1: call friends. Their daughter, beautiful, brilliant, whimsical, loving, is stabbed

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Speaker 1: twenty plus times, including in the back, in the back

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Speaker 1: of the net, in the back of the head. The

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Speaker 1: ruling is now suicide. And no matter how much they fight,

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Speaker 1: and no matter how much of their own money they

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Speaker 1: lay out, no matter how many private eyes and lawyers

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Speaker 1: they hire, they still don't have justice. In the last days,

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Speaker 1: a stunning blow, the suicide ruling for this beautiful young

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Speaker 1: teacher has been upheld. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Foxination and

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Speaker 1: Serious exem one eleven. Where by God in Heaven, we

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Speaker 1: are not stopping this fight. First of all, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our friends Gavin Fish at True Crime.

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Speaker 2: While this court is acutely aware of the deeply flawed

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Speaker 2: investigation of the victim's death by the City of Philadelphia

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Speaker 2: Police Department, detectives, the City of Philadelphia District Attorney's Office,

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Speaker 2: and the MOO. We have no choice under the law

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Speaker 2: but to reverse and remand to the trial court for

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Speaker 2: the entry of judgment in favor of the Medical Examiner's Office.

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Speaker 2: Even so, in the interests of justice, we believe that

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Speaker 2: providing a detailed review of the victim's death and the

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Speaker 2: ensuing investigation is clearly warranted with hopes that equity may

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Speaker 2: one day prevail for the victim and her loved ones.

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Speaker 1: You know what, if that is the law, then the

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Speaker 1: law is an ass There is no way in h

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Speaker 1: eul that that suicide ruling should have stood. They are

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Speaker 1: saying this appellate court that their hands are tied. No,

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Speaker 1: their hands are not tied. That's why they are there

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Speaker 1: to right wrongs and seek justice. Yet they have chosen

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Speaker 1: the political easy way out. Listen.

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Speaker 3: The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted

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Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg's autopsy, Marlon Osborne, initially ruled Greenberg's death a homicide.

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Speaker 3: Weeks later, without any explanation to the Greenberg's Osborne changed

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Speaker 3: her manner of death from homicide to suicide. The parents

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Speaker 3: found out about the change from media reports. Ever since

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Speaker 3: the change from homicide to suicide, the Greensburgs have been

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Speaker 3: fighting to have the ruling change from suicide to homicide

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Speaker 3: or even undetermined. Changing to homicide or undetermined will allow

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Speaker 3: for a new criminal investigation to be opened. Twelve years later,

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Speaker 3: and the Greenbergs are back in court trying to get

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Speaker 3: justice for their daughter.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we know right now. But first I want

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Speaker 1: to go to special guests that I call for friends,

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Speaker 1: Sandy and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents. You can find them

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Justice for Ellen tw on Facebook at

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Speaker 1: Justice for Ellen FB. There's a GoFundMe called Justice for Ellen.

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Speaker 1: This mother and father have never given up, and we

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Speaker 1: are fighting alongside them until ultimately justice does prevail. Sandy

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Speaker 1: and Josh Greenberg, First of all, I am so sorry

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Speaker 1: that the appellate court has turned its back on you,

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Speaker 1: but I want to hear your reaction when you learned

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Speaker 1: they're ruling.

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 4: Stunned. I didn't really know what everything meant beyond tears

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Speaker 4: because I'm all out of tears knowing, I was just speechless. Josh,

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Speaker 4: what do you think?

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Speaker 5: Well, this has been going on for twelve years. So

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Speaker 5: I was not really surprised by the Justice's ruler. I

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Speaker 5: think it's flimsy. I think it's not very substantial or noteworthy.

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Speaker 5: But what really got me was the extent of their

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Speaker 5: description and detail of the whole twelve years of how

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Speaker 5: they felt that the main criminal legal system in Philadelphia

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Speaker 5: was flawed. That's the word they used. How they quoted

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Speaker 5: many of our expert witnesses who've given evidence. I'm not

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Speaker 5: talking about hearsay. I'm talking about facts. We have evidence,

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Speaker 5: and that's what.

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Speaker 6: Shocks me.

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Speaker 5: But I was very very heart one or positive that

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Speaker 5: they were able to say human things let's call them

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Speaker 5: human things, human emotions that they admitted and they highlighted,

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Speaker 5: and they spoke about, and they described why Sandy and

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Speaker 5: I and Ellen should all have justice, the truth, And

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Speaker 5: that's all Sandy and I have ever asked for for Ellen,

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Speaker 5: the truth about our debt. We have never pointed a

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Speaker 5: finger at anybody. We have never said the police were

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Speaker 5: no good, the DA was no good, the Emmy was

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Speaker 5: no good. We've never pointed that as a possible suspect.

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Speaker 5: We want the investigation opened with an impartial investigative team

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Speaker 5: with an impartial investigative head. And to do that we

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Speaker 5: do need the conclusion of the medical medical dixamers changed

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Speaker 5: from suicide to either homicide or undecided. That's all we

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Speaker 5: have ever asked.

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Speaker 6: For the truth.

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Speaker 1: Joining me in addition to Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who

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Speaker 1: it's amazing to me that they can see good out

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Speaker 1: of this horrible, horrible decision by the appellate court. It

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Speaker 1: almost makes me lose faith in our justice system. But

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to because I know that there is

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Speaker 1: still hope. Joining me right now in addition to the

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Speaker 1: Greenberg family is John Lucy, journalists forpnlive dot com and

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Speaker 1: The Patriot Muse of Harrisburg, and he specializes in true

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Speaker 1: crime and cold case investigations. He's also the author of

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Speaker 1: Kill the Story. John Lucy, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Explain in simple terms, not legalistic terms, what happened.

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Speaker 6: What happened is the law of Pennsylvania is almost total

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Speaker 6: deference to medical examiners and coroners when it comes to

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Speaker 6: making cause and manner of death rulings. They are simply

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Speaker 6: unappealable as a matter of law in PA. And the

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Speaker 6: amazing thing about this decision this opinion thirty two pages,

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Speaker 6: but only one page actually discusses the opinion of why

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Speaker 6: they can't let this be appealed, which is basically saying

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Speaker 6: that the parents of Ellen Greenberg did not have standing

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Speaker 6: to appeal this decision. If parents of possible murder victim

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Speaker 6: do not have legal standing to appeal the ruling of

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Speaker 6: cause and manner of death on their daughter, no one

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Speaker 6: has standing. So the rest of the opinion was, as

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Speaker 6: Josh said, a recitation of this overwhelming evidence that they've

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Speaker 6: amassed on their own dollar to question this manner of

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Speaker 6: death ruling as suicide. And it is overwhelming. But unfortunately

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Speaker 6: the listing in this legal opinion is just lip service

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Speaker 6: because the law is so unassallable when it comes to

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Speaker 6: appealing these rulings. What's going to have to happen is

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Speaker 6: there's going to have to be Ellen Greenberg cases in

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Speaker 6: a number of counties in PA in order to create

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Speaker 6: the groundswell for legislation that would change this. It's almost

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Speaker 6: almost a legislation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, how about this. How about this

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Speaker 1: John Lucy, who, according to the court, would have standing.

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Speaker 6: They never answered that question. They don't answer that question.

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Speaker 6: And if the parents don't have standing, who does? I mean,

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Speaker 6: I can't imagine who would have standing.

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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace, Let's just remind everybody of

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Speaker 1: what happened in this case to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us,

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Speaker 1: renowned professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet and Star of Body Bags with Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Could you just refresh everyone's recollection? I know you and

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Speaker 1: I mostly you did an incredible recreation for our Fox

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Speaker 1: Nation special investigation where you basically took over part of

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University in order to create and a fair

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Speaker 1: and accurate depiction of the crime scene where I believe

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Speaker 1: this young woman, bright and beautiful was murdered. That's what happened.

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Speaker 1: But could you remind everyone what happened to Ellen?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Nancy. The thing that stands out to me the

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Speaker 7: most is the number of injuries that she has sustained

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Speaker 7: that have been into had by the medical legal authorities

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Speaker 7: as having been self inflicted. We're talking twenty stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: At least twenty Because I disagree with you on that.

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Speaker 7: At least at least twenty, because you've got you've got

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Speaker 7: some yeah, I know, overlapping. You have these that are

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Speaker 7: cross communicating, as we refer to these in the medical

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Speaker 7: legal context, where you have one stab woman that enters another,

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Speaker 7: and you have opinions that have been rendered by a

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Speaker 7: highly regarded expert such as Sarah Weck, that have stated

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Speaker 7: that this is almost an empirical impossibility for someone to

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Speaker 7: self inflict. First off, multiple stab wounds self inflicted stab

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Speaker 7: wounds are very rare, and even he says that in

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Speaker 7: his opinion. But here's the rub. When you begin to

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Speaker 7: examine these insults that Ellen has sustained to her body,

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Speaker 7: they are multiple. Uh you know, She's found on the

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Speaker 7: floor of her apartment in her kitchen with this rather

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Speaker 7: robust little knife that is buried in her chest. And

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Speaker 7: I think the most absurd portion to this is that

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Speaker 7: she has sustained multiple stab ones to her posterior, to

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Speaker 7: her back, nancy, to her neck, even some that intrude

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Speaker 7: into the cranial area and brush up against the spinal cord.

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Speaker 7: The fact that they could even imply that this is

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Speaker 7: a possibility or within the realm of possibility is almost absurd.

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Speaker 1: Guys, I want you to take listens to our cuts

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Speaker 1: three and twenty, and that's from CBS three Philly and

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Speaker 1: NBC ten.

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Speaker 8: The AG's office, led by Joshapiro, the current Democratic nominee

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Speaker 8: for governor, has long insisted evidence proves the twenty seven

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Speaker 8: year old died by suicide. She was found by her

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Speaker 8: fiance with twenty stab wounds inside their Many Uncle apartment

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Speaker 8: in January twenty eleven, but the Greenbergs aren't convinced she

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Speaker 8: was murdered, and they're currently suing the city's medical examiner

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Speaker 8: with the hope of reopening the case.

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Speaker 9: I've lost count of all the amount of monies and

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Speaker 9: efforts and emotions that we've been working at to try

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Speaker 9: to clear our daughter's name and get justice for Ellen

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Speaker 9: Ray Greenberg.

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Speaker 10: She was stabbed twenty times. Half of the wounds to

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Speaker 10: the back of her neck.

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Speaker 11: You talk to any reasonable person and they all say,

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Speaker 11: what the hell is going on.

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Speaker 10: Tom Brennan logged twenty five years with the Pennsylvania State

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Speaker 10: Police and worked at the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia.

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Speaker 10: Now retired, he has worked nearly seven years pro bono

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Speaker 10: with the Greenbergs, investigating Ellen's death.

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Speaker 1: I said, this is a holicide, and Brennan is right,

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Speaker 1: and he is joining us today. Before I go to Brennan,

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Speaker 1: take a listen hour cut for our friends, Doctor Oz.

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Speaker 11: We engaged a neuro forensic pathologist I work with in

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Speaker 11: the past, and he studied all of the information that

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Speaker 11: I had and it was his opinion that this was

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Speaker 11: a homicide and not a suicide. And he said the

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Speaker 11: wounds would have severed the nerves of the spinal cord.

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Speaker 11: And if you take if you look at the wound track,

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Speaker 11: the wound track goes in an up direction into the

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Speaker 11: brain and causes a hemorrhage in the brain. So following

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Speaker 11: that wound itself, the victim could no longer self harm.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Joe Scott and I firmly believe that there

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Speaker 1: were post mortem after death stabbings, which makes the idea

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Speaker 1: of a suicide completely implausible. Let's ourcut twenty three one

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Speaker 1: was so deep it actually nicks the spine.

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Speaker 7: But you know, here's the rub there's no hemorrhage. There's

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Speaker 7: absolutely no hemorrhage, bleeding, no bleeding whatsoever, which means.

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Speaker 1: By the time she was stabbed in the back on

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Speaker 1: that particular stab, there was no bleeding because her heart

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Speaker 1: was no longer pumping.

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Speaker 12: There is no blood where the stab occurred. That means

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Speaker 12: that Ellen didn't have a pulse when that stab occurred.

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Speaker 12: A post mortem wound cannot be done by the victim.

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Speaker 12: By definition, a post mortem wound means you're dead. Somebody

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Speaker 12: else's administering that wound.

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Speaker 1: I want to go now to Tom Brennan, private investigator

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Speaker 1: consultant to Ellen Greenberg's family joining us out of Harrisburg. Tom,

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Speaker 1: I just I feel that you and Josh and Sandy

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Speaker 1: have gotten a real kick in the teeth. You're down,

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Speaker 1: but you're not out. What is your response to this ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: inane ruling by the appellate court.

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Speaker 13: You know, I've been an involved in law enforcement for

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Speaker 13: over fifty five years. I've never ever heard of or

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Speaker 13: read an order such as this. To begin with, when

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Speaker 13: you take a look at doctor Galino and doctor Osborne, Okay,

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Speaker 13: you have two medical professionals who committed perjury when we

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Speaker 13: deposed them. Okay, they both committed perjury regarding doctor Osborne's

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Speaker 13: performance evaluations. Okay, there are three memos out there criticizing

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Speaker 13: doctor Osborne regarding his performance. There are other assistant prosecutors

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Speaker 13: out there, like Guy Diangia, who will tell you that

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Speaker 13: when it came to putting doctor Osborne on the stand,

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Speaker 13: he shied away from it. Well, you have this type

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Speaker 13: of behavior taking place because of Ellen's death.

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Speaker 1: I can't sabo that big question. Wendy Patrick joining US

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Speaker 1: high profile prosecutor out of California, author Why Bad Looks

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Speaker 1: Good and of Red Flags at wendypatrickphd dot com. She's

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Speaker 1: the host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ. Wendy

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Speaker 1: Big Question, What if anything can be done now, because

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Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, the appellate Court is now

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Speaker 1: part of the problem.

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Speaker 14: The most obvious solution would be to change the rules,

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Speaker 14: change the law. This is jurisdictional specific of Wendy.

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Speaker 1: That's not happening. Nobody is changing the rules. To get

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Speaker 1: the legislature to actually do something is going to take years.

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Speaker 14: Well, it'll either take years or it'll take a lot

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Speaker 14: of cases quickly. Remember that's how the Me Too movement

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Speaker 14: changed the law of the Statute of Limitations to bring

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Speaker 14: sex cases. So this is one of the things that

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Speaker 14: John Lucy talked about. If you have more of these cases,

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Speaker 14: and by your bringing this to the attention of the public,

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Speaker 14: we may very well have more cases, because we all

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Speaker 14: know there's no such thing as a perfect murder. But

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Speaker 14: that's why preserving the crime scene is so important. Fatility

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Speaker 14: to preserve evidence shouldn't preclude further investigation or the parents

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Speaker 14: a victim of receiving justice if more people have suffered.

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Speaker 14: God forbid this kind of a procedural injustice. Although we

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Speaker 14: might see the barrage of cases in a very short

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Speaker 14: period of time given social media and the speed with

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Speaker 14: which others say, you know what, the investigation into my

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Speaker 14: loved one's case was also stalled in the court system

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Speaker 14: because the law didn't allow for further appeals, so it

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Speaker 14: could happen very quickly. I agree, Nancy, it's an uphill battle,

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Speaker 14: but I'm the ultimate optimist, not insurmountable, and by Sandy

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Speaker 14: and Josh and you and everyone else that is bringing

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Speaker 14: this to the attention, hopefully that's something that we can accomplish.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So your plan of action, Wendy Patrick, is white

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Speaker 1: for more people to die and their loved ones appeal it. Okay, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not a plan of action.

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Speaker 14: No, remember this is a cold case. No, this is not.

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Speaker 14: This is a cold case. There are lots of people

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Speaker 14: who've already had this happen, so it wouldn't be anybody

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Speaker 14: else dying.

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Speaker 1: God forbid. I don't know about that. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that there are a lot of people where the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner had a closed door meeting with officials from the

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Speaker 1: Police Department, the DA's office and changed a ruling on

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Speaker 1: cause of death. I don't know that there are that

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Speaker 1: many cases like that to John Lucy joining us with

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Speaker 1: Penlive dot Com and the Patriot Needs of Harrisburg, John,

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Speaker 1: which appellate court made this ruling.

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Speaker 6: This was the Commonwealth Court, which is the second highest

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Speaker 6: court in PA. And you know their ruling could be

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Speaker 6: appealed to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I want

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Speaker 6: to I'm going to go back to that secret meeting

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Speaker 6: that you just mentioned within within the Medical Examiner's office

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Speaker 6: and involving detectives.

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Speaker 1: Computers, and Josh and Sandy jump in. Please, we are

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Speaker 1: sending a copy of today's program to the Appellate Court

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Speaker 1: and to the Supreme Court in Pennsylvania because they are

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Speaker 1: like many other jurisdictions, including Georgia and many others, there

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Speaker 1: is a Court of Appeals, which is one appellate court,

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Speaker 1: and then there is a higher appellate court, the Georgia

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Same thing in Pennsylvania. You got the Commonwealth

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Speaker 1: Court that made this inane ruling, and there's a court

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Speaker 1: over them. This can be appealed up. But that said,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, John Lucy.

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Speaker 6: The one thing I want to mention with this alleged

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Speaker 6: conspiracy which which the Greenberg have alleged happened in the

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Speaker 6: medical Examiner's office, and which they have a second civil

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Speaker 6: suit pending. If we ever get to the bottom of

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Speaker 6: what happened in that meeting and who was involved in

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Speaker 6: what was said, that could uncover the injustice here. This

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Speaker 6: meeting was prompted because of the fact that the crime

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Speaker 6: scene of Ellen's death was not preserved. It was it

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Speaker 6: was declared a suicide at the crime scene by the

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Speaker 6: responding detectives. That was overturned the next day at autopsy

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Speaker 6: when it was initially ruled a homicide. But by the

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Speaker 6: time that they went back to the scene, it had

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Speaker 6: been cleaned and sanitized because it was not made a

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Speaker 6: crime scene on the night of her death. So because

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Speaker 6: you had no evidence it could be collected. Once it

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Speaker 6: was named the homicide, these detectives had to cover their

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Speaker 6: butts and get this change back to suicide. That's the

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Speaker 6: basis of what happened in that office. This was a

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Speaker 6: cover up.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on too much, too fast? Can I

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Speaker 1: tell you something?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Do you know how long it takes to get a

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Speaker 1: cleanup crew to come following a homicide? Forever?

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Speaker 15: But wow, apparently they got a number and they from

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Speaker 15: one of the officers and they called and they got

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Speaker 15: it cleaned up.

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Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, it was fast.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now I want to analyze what you said right.

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Speaker 5: There at did I can I drop in here?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 5: Number one, the cleanup crew normally takes pictures of the

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Speaker 5: crime scene or the scene than when they have cleaned

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Speaker 5: up before they clean up. This was not done in

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Speaker 5: this case. Number two, We've already mentioned that Melissa ware

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Speaker 5: did video in the apartment before it was cleaned up,

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Speaker 5: and the police took it and they can't find thee.

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Speaker 1: My thoughts exactly, Jackie? Could you roll our cut thirty

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Speaker 1: nine from crime Online?

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Speaker 3: Even though the three judge panel ruled against the Greenberg's

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Speaker 3: latest efforts to change their daughter's death from suicide to

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Speaker 3: homicide or undetermined. The appellite court panel took note of

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Speaker 3: the Greenberg family attorney Joe Pedraza, when he pointed out

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Speaker 3: that the building manager had taken video of the crime

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Speaker 3: scene prior to the cleanup and gave it to the police,

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Speaker 3: but that video is now on account for according to

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Speaker 3: The New York Post. The panel added that there was

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Speaker 3: no record of officers interviewing the company that cleaned up

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Speaker 3: the crime scene, the building manager, or the police department

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Speaker 3: representative who told the manager to hire a cleanup crew.

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Speaker 1: Incredible, Can I go with number three? Go ahead?

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Speaker 5: This goes back to the judges saying the investigation was faulty.

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Speaker 5: But I'm going to bring up something I think is

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Speaker 5: very relevant. Osborne. I'm going to call him doctor this

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Speaker 5: time under oath on a video and audio said he

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Speaker 5: there is a deposition was that he was. The deposition

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Speaker 5: said if he knew what he knew now, he would

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Speaker 5: have changed it to undecided or homicide. That was his

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Speaker 5: testimony under oath. He has never done that.

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Speaker 1: Interesting that that was not pursued by Elie law enforcement

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Speaker 1: to present to the Court of Appeals. There is a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit accusing officials off conspiracy and cover up as there

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Speaker 1: should be. Take a listen our cut forty one from

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Speaker 1: our friend Dave Mack.

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Speaker 3: The parents of Ellen Greenberg have spent half a million

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Speaker 3: dollars of their own money, according to Penn Live, to

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Speaker 3: try and get satisfaction and justice. The Greenbergs, their attorneys

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Speaker 3: and private detectives claim the evidence they've collected show Ellen's

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Speaker 3: death ruling was changed after a meeting among police, a prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: and to medical examiner officials handling the Greenberg case. A

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Speaker 3: pen Live article says the evidence includes the EMMY official's

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Speaker 3: own deposition describing the meeting. In a separate civil suit

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Speaker 3: the Greenberg's filed, they accused the police, prosecutors and EMMY

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Speaker 3: officials involved in the meeting of individual and wilful misconduct

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Speaker 3: and participating in a conspiracy to cover up the murder

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Speaker 3: of Eleen R.

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Speaker 6: Greenberg.

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Speaker 3: In that lawsuit, the Greenbergs are seeking unspecified monetary damages.

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Speaker 1: What is the status, Sandy Greenberg of that lawsuit.

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Speaker 4: We're waiting for. They're withholding all the information from us,

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Speaker 4: so I don't know the legal terms of how to assert.

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Speaker 5: Our lawyer, Sam, let me help you here. Our lawyers

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Speaker 5: subpoenaed for the information the case files. I believe that,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to say turned down. And they now have

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Speaker 5: filed one hundred and seventy eight page petition asking for

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Speaker 5: the evidence. Why after the case is closed, According to

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Speaker 5: the police, they will not give us the evidence. I

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Speaker 5: believe that's the way the law is written. I believe

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Speaker 5: that's the way the lawyer is written.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're absolutely right. Once the case is closed, law

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Speaker 1: enforcement does not have a right any longer to keep

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Speaker 1: that file to itself and not release it. Prime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, John Lucy. Can this be appealed up

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Speaker 1: to the highest appellate court in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it can be appealed. Now that's a matter for

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Speaker 6: the Greenbergs. But given the realities of the law, I

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Speaker 6: don't know that the outcome would be any different. Their

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Speaker 6: lawyers would advise them of what the possibilities are given

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Speaker 6: the current ruling by the Commonwealth Court.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the deal, John Lucy. You have to exhaust

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Speaker 1: all of your state remedies, all of them before you

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Speaker 1: can lead into federal court. Once you don't get satisfaction.

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Speaker 1: When you have a legal basis and a factual basis

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Speaker 1: and you can't get satisfaction in the state court system.

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Speaker 1: You must exhaust all the way up all of your

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Speaker 1: possible remedies, and then take those rulings to the lowest

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Speaker 1: federal court, which would be a federal district court. And

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Speaker 1: then if you don't get the ruling you want there,

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Speaker 1: then you try for the federal appellate court, a circuit court.

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Speaker 1: If you don't get a ruling there, you try you

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Speaker 1: try to get a rint to go to the US

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court. Nancy, what you do? Yes, I heard your

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Speaker 1: suggestion that we wait for more people to die. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Do you have another thought?

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Speaker 14: No, I said, Actually, I said the opposite, because these

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Speaker 14: are cold cases we're talking about where justice hasn't been served.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me, You're right, wait for more cold case families

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Speaker 1: to appeal.

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Speaker 14: Yes, more case, more cold case families to come forward.

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Speaker 14: Because one of the things that really bothered me about

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Speaker 14: this ruling is the standing issue, and that if the

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Speaker 14: parents don't have standing, who does And I'm just sort

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Speaker 14: of thinking through brainstorming, we need to figure out who

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Speaker 14: has standing to seek justice so that they can receive

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Speaker 14: justice in the lower court system. And if the standing

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Speaker 14: is the big deal, you know there are other people

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Speaker 14: that were involved in this, maybe the investigators, maybe other

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Speaker 14: I mean, there has to be somebody that the court

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Speaker 14: would rule is able to bring this argument in such

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Speaker 14: a fashion that we can achieve justice now instead of

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Speaker 14: waiting for family, the people that have already died, or

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Speaker 14: God forbid, waiting for more cases.

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Speaker 1: To doctor Angela Arnold joining us renowned psychiatrist out of

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her an Angela Arnold

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Speaker 1: MD dot com. Where can the Greenbergs summon the strength

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Speaker 1: for this next round? Because I'm telling you, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, doctor Angie, which I'm happy if you don't

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Speaker 1: know this, But the harsh truth is when you go

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Speaker 1: to the let's just pretend Georgia Court of Appeals, Guess

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Speaker 1: who's right down the hall from them, the Georgia Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: who has lunch together every day. Guess who uses very

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Speaker 1: often they intermingle law libraries, the Georgia Supreme Court. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's the same way in Pennsylvania. So we're

437
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: asking the Pennsylvania Supreme Court to overwhelm, to overrule their

438
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: buddies down the hall, the Commonwealth Court. Now is that

439
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: going to happen. Maybe maybe one justice on the Pennsylvania

440
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: Supremes will have a backbone and do the right thing.

441
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: Maybe they can convince the others to go along. All

442
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,239
Speaker 1: we need is a majority, which in many jurisdictions is

443
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: five people against four on the state Supreme Court. Typical

444
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: not always, but if not, then then take it straight

445
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: to the Feds. So how do you summon the strength?

446
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 1: How do you keep fighting, doctor Angie? When you are broke,

447
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: when you spent going on three quarters of an million dollars,

448
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: when you're exhausted, when you are depressed, when you keep

449
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: getting a kick in the rear end every time you

450
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: get up to try again, what do you do?

451
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 16: Nancy? I believe that the parents, with each step, make it.

452
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: Count.

453
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 16: It seems it seems like they would be defeated in

454
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 16: each step of the way. But I have a feeling

455
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 16: that they are so strong that each step of the

456
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 16: way is giving them more strength to want to defeat

457
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 16: this horrific, horrific ruling. Because we all know, Nancy, we've

458
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 16: been doing this story forever. Their daughter did not commit suicide.

459
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 4: This is bullshit.

460
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 16: But now, unfortunately, like you said, Nancy, now they're up

461
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 16: against all of these law people that are possibly talking

462
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 16: to each other, but I have a feeling that they

463
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 16: are gathering their strength and moving forward because they have

464
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 16: got to prove something in this case.

465
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: You know what I do, Josh and Sandy. When I

466
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: am defeated and exhausted and get tired of slings and

467
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: arrows in literary terms, it comes to me. I don't

468
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: summon it up. It comes to me. I remember my

469
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: fiance's incredible blue eyes. I used to say, Keith, your

470
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: eyes are so blue, I think I could swim in them.

471
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: I remember him looking at me on one particular day,

472
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: looking up at my window, and I look down and

473
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: the sun was in his eyes, and they were the

474
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: bluest things I've ever seen. I think of that moment,

475
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: and then I know nothing else matters. It doesn't matter

476
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: what anybody else says or thinks or does. It matters

477
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: what I do, and if I do it with a

478
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: clear conscience and with all my strength and all my heart.

479
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: And it hurts, and I can only imagine what you

480
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: and Sandy have gone through. Josh, So tell us how

481
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: do you keep going well?

482
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 6: I would like to do two things.

483
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 5: I'll answer your question directly, but I'd also like to

484
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 5: bring up the fact that the City of Philadelphia issue

485
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 5: this statement discussing this ruling, saying there may be other

486
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 5: ways this actually happened.

487
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 6: I'm not making this up.

488
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 5: That's out there.

489
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: I appreciate what the City of Philadelphia said, but that

490
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: has no legal significance at all. It's just like they

491
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: yelled out the car on Third Avenue. So what if

492
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: they said, oh, this may have happened a different way.

493
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: Does that somehow help you? Does that help further your

494
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: legal battle? Have I missed something? Josh?

495
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 5: I'm not an attorney, but you asked me how I

496
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 5: can How I keep going. I keep going because I

497
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 5: see my daughter in my mind's eye. I keep going

498
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 5: that I know she didn't do this, and somebody out

499
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 5: there is a murderer, and somebody out there is an

500
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 5: abuser of women, and that person should be stopped before

501
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 5: this happens again. And everything we're fighting for is not

502
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 5: just for Ellen. If this whole thing was changed, if

503
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 5: this whole law giving the medical dixameters unilateral, I don't

504
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 5: know what I'm the bus like powers, this would help

505
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 5: others who have also earned the same quote. We are

506
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 5: not the first to go through this, and we won't

507
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 5: be the last if we don't win.

508
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: You know, Josh, I've listened to so many different things

509
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: that you have said in the past, and what you

510
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: just said literally gave me chills, because you are so right.

511
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: You are not the first to have been mistreated. Ellen

512
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: is not the first, Sandy is not the first, and

513
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: you won't be the last until people stand up and

514
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: fight back against this. And to you, Sandy, question, how

515
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: do you keep going? Because early early this morning, when

516
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: we were on the phone, I heard you guys actually

517
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: say we see positive in this, and I was thinking,

518
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: what are they talking? What is positive? Because yes, the

519
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: appellate court goes, oh this was horrible, Yes this was wrong,

520
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: Yes there were problems, but we're not going to ruin

521
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: your favor. How do you keep going, Sandy?

522
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 4: I'm very determined. And nothing takes place when the truth

523
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 4: is the truth and it's raw and it's out there.

524
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: And this judgment was read by not just us people

525
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 4: who care, but people on the opposition who were trying

526
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: to conceal a homicide. I'd read it too, and I

527
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 4: can't get over how revealing the situation is and the

528
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: intentions of the politicians and law enforcement and the Medical

529
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 4: Examiner's office. They're out Their intentions are out there, and

530
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 4: they're not ashamed, which I just I don't, I can't.

531
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: What in you, Sandy think are their intentions?

532
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 4: Well, they're dug in so deep, but the truth keeps

533
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 4: rising to the top so that at some point, you know,

534
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 4: the longer you can continue, the worse the lie gets.

535
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 4: So somehow they're they're going to have to figure it out.

536
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: Do you intend to appeal this ruling, Josh and Sandy? Yes,

537
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: Praise the Lord. We wait as just as sunfolds, and

538
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: remember it ain't over yet. By God, it ain't over yet.

539
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: Good Bye, f