WEBVTT - DOJ Number Three Lawyer Leaves Post to Work For Walmart

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's not usually

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<v Speaker 1>in the headlines when an Associate Attorney General resigns, but

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<v Speaker 1>these days, when the supervision of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's

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<v Speaker 1>investigation is the subject of congressional hearings, the importance of

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<v Speaker 1>the departure of the third highest official in the Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Department is clear. Rachel Brand is stepping down after less

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<v Speaker 1>than nine months in the job. She'll be joining walmart

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<v Speaker 1>as executive vice president of Global Governance. Joining me is

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<v Speaker 1>Bradley Moss, a partner at Mark Sade brad Deputy Attorney

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<v Speaker 1>General Rod Rosenston is the only government official with the

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<v Speaker 1>legal authority to directly fire Mueller. Next in line after

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<v Speaker 1>him was Rachel Brand, which is why so many of

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<v Speaker 1>us have come to know her by name. Who is

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<v Speaker 1>next in line after Rachel Brand? Absolutely so. The next

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<v Speaker 1>person is right now the Solicitor General um And that's

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<v Speaker 1>only because the line of secession technically would go to

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<v Speaker 1>the U. S Attorney for Inficiation North Carolina, but that

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<v Speaker 1>individual has not been confirmed by the Senate yet, so

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<v Speaker 1>due to that technicality, the Solicitor General is currently next online.

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<v Speaker 1>If Mr Rosen sign were fired or dismissed for any reason, now, um,

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<v Speaker 1>if the President wanted to put someone in that position permanently,

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<v Speaker 1>would there have to be confirmation by the Senate for

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<v Speaker 1>the spot that Miss brand left, I would require that

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<v Speaker 1>would require Senate confirmation. And it goes without saying, just

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<v Speaker 1>as we dealt within Watergate, and just as we dealt

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<v Speaker 1>with when Mr Rosenstein and others were putting their current positions,

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<v Speaker 1>that Senators would absolutely ask about the context of the

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<v Speaker 1>Special Council investigation and the extent to which these individual

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<v Speaker 1>rules would be willing to uh counter an illegal order

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<v Speaker 1>or an an unethical order to fire the Special Council.

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats like Congressman Adam Schiff have been reading signals from

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<v Speaker 1>the White House in recent weeks that Rosenstein is on

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<v Speaker 1>the line he may be fired, ostensibly because of his

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<v Speaker 1>part in signing off on the re reauthorization of the

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance of Carter Page. As outlined in that Republican memo.

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<v Speaker 1>Does the President need a reason to fire Rosenstein? That?

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<v Speaker 1>Technically speaking, no, he is a political appointee. The President

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<v Speaker 1>can fire Mr. Rosenstein just like any other political pointee

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<v Speaker 1>at any time he wants, without cause. They serve at

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<v Speaker 1>the pleasure of the President. But there would be an

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<v Speaker 1>obvious political ramification and backlash if he were to take

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<v Speaker 1>such an action, especially if he did it in the

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<v Speaker 1>context of subsequently trying to fire the Special Counsel, would

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<v Speaker 1>without question have political ramifications, which I don't think the

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<v Speaker 1>President quite wants to deal with, specially leading up to

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<v Speaker 1>the mid terms. Let's try to put ourselves in Rachel

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<v Speaker 1>Brand's position. She's only been there nine months. Excuse me.

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<v Speaker 1>NBC is reporting that she quit partially over fear that

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<v Speaker 1>she might be asked to oversee the rush of probe.

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<v Speaker 1>That's according to multiple sources close to her. That's NBC

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<v Speaker 1>News just coming out with that about an hour ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that seem more likely than that she's leaving for

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<v Speaker 1>a great job. Yeah, I don't think anybody really believes

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<v Speaker 1>with all sincerity that she simply left because it was

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<v Speaker 1>a job that she couldn't pass up. There were obviously

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<v Speaker 1>other factors, other considerations. She clearly was not comfortable with

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<v Speaker 1>how the department was being run, the lack of proper staffing, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>the amitistation said, problems getting enough people nominated, let alone

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<v Speaker 1>a pointed and confirmed But also yeah, I mean, she

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<v Speaker 1>had to be worried that if Rosenstein was fired, that

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<v Speaker 1>she'd be placed in the position of having to oversee

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<v Speaker 1>and possibly be ordered to dismiss us their mull And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's really a position she wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>find herself in. She's a lifelong government lawyer. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think she reviewed herself as being that kind of player,

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<v Speaker 1>and she didn't really want to tie her reputation to that.

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<v Speaker 1>She was a rising star in the conservative legal world.

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<v Speaker 1>She's worked for both Republican presidents and Democratic presidents, and

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<v Speaker 1>it seems as if she was working her way up,

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<v Speaker 1>and now she's sort of gone off into the private sector,

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps ahead of time. Yeah, I certainly expect to see

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, she's still young. I certainly expect to see

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<v Speaker 1>her back in government service in the future. I think

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<v Speaker 1>she'll make some money right now for a little while

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<v Speaker 1>with Walmart and anyone else the private sector, But come

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<v Speaker 1>another administration, whether it be Republican or demock Democrat, but

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<v Speaker 1>probably Republican. I could see her being appointed to a

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<v Speaker 1>position such as deputy Attorney General. She'll be back, brad. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk a little bit about the pressures that the

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department officials are under. For example Rod Rosenstein, everywhere

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<v Speaker 1>he goes in in Congress wherever there are cameras following

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<v Speaker 1>him continually. Um. And the pressure of the other people

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<v Speaker 1>in the in the Justice Department with this hanging over

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<v Speaker 1>their head, this smaller investigation. Yeah, the Justice Department to

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<v Speaker 1>an extent, is used to the cuts contain Uh. They

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<v Speaker 1>are often under the microscope and a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>investigation prostitutions they would bring. What's different here is the

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<v Speaker 1>extent to one obviously implicates possibly the president or senior advisors,

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<v Speaker 1>but also the extent to which the President, so routinely

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<v Speaker 1>and so in such an inflammatory manner, will discuss it

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about They are official effectively doing their job

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<v Speaker 1>and trying to run a proper investigation while having their

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<v Speaker 1>boss publicly criticized them for what they're doing in and

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<v Speaker 1>of itself. And that can't be easy. Whether you're a

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<v Speaker 1>civil servant or a political appointee that certainly is not

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<v Speaker 1>a comfortable work environment which to operate while you're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to simply do your job as you understand it and

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<v Speaker 1>as you've been taking to do so. It's put the

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<v Speaker 1>department in a bit of an unusual buying here. UM.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not surprised that there's the problem staffing, especially with

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<v Speaker 1>the political point, because I don't think a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>credible and qualified individuals want to tie their name to this,

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<v Speaker 1>not knowing what the president will ultimately do at the

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<v Speaker 1>end of the day. About a minute here, but it

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<v Speaker 1>seems as if it might be because of all the

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<v Speaker 1>publicity about the possibility of firing Rod Rosenstein, much like

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<v Speaker 1>the publicity of firing Rex Tillerson and Jeff Sessions, that

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<v Speaker 1>it might be that the President is less likely to

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<v Speaker 1>fire him at this point. I think I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>a valid, valid, and more very likely position. At at

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<v Speaker 1>this point, I don't think he really wants to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with not only the ramifications of how it would damage

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<v Speaker 1>him in the public relations in the in the PR sense,

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<v Speaker 1>but the idea of who would take that spot, who

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<v Speaker 1>have any real credibility qualification would be willing to step

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<v Speaker 1>into that spot at that point, knowing everything that's going

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<v Speaker 1>on and wanting to go to the cluelin process of

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<v Speaker 1>getting confirmed, and then still know at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the day that your boss will possibly chastise you on

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter and you can't respond. So I think you have

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<v Speaker 1>to take that into consideration. I think the President's probably

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<v Speaker 1>helped back, not because I really want peop, because he's

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<v Speaker 1>got no other choice. Thanks so much as always for

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<v Speaker 1>being here. That's Brad Moss. He's a partner at Mark Say.

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<v Speaker 1>The saga of the dueling memos continues. It's been ten

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<v Speaker 1>days since President Trump declassified and allowed the release of

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<v Speaker 1>Republican House intelligence memo that alleged bias and misconduct by

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<v Speaker 1>the FBI and Justice Department in their surveillance of former

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<v Speaker 1>Trump campaign associate car to Page. House Democrats have been

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<v Speaker 1>trying to have their own memo that counters Republican allegations

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<v Speaker 1>released to the public, but on Friday, the White House

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<v Speaker 1>formerly notified them that President Trump was unable to declassify

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<v Speaker 1>the Democratic memo because it contained quote numerous properly classified

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<v Speaker 1>and sensitive passages. During an interview with CBS has faced

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<v Speaker 1>the Nation. Democratic Congressman Adam Shift the rank key member

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<v Speaker 1>of the House Committee said the FBI had already reviewed

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<v Speaker 1>their document and criticized the president's refusal to release it.

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<v Speaker 1>The hypocrisy of this just kind of reaches out and

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<v Speaker 1>grabs you by the throat. Here, the Republicans write a

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<v Speaker 1>memo which the FBI quite accurately describes as misleading and

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<v Speaker 1>omitting material facts. The Department of Justice says it would

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<v Speaker 1>be extraordinarily reckless to release this. Uh and what does

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<v Speaker 1>the president do? He says, I'm going to release it

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<v Speaker 1>before I even read it, how to present I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>release it. This is a president who puts his own

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<v Speaker 1>personal interest above the national security interests of the country.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest is Jimmy Garule, professor at Notre Dame Law School.

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<v Speaker 1>Jimmy Trump overroad Justice Department objections when he permitted the

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<v Speaker 1>release of the Republican memo without redactions now in decline

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<v Speaker 1>to classify the Democratic memo. There was, along with the

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<v Speaker 1>letter from the White House Council, letter signed by Deputy

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and FBI Director Ray laying out

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<v Speaker 1>portions it considers too sensitive to make public. So what's

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<v Speaker 1>your reaction to the different treatment of the two memos,

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a basis for it? Well, they're certainly being

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<v Speaker 1>treated differently. And with respect to the noon As Memo,

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<v Speaker 1>the both the FBI and d O J the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Justice had concerns that the noon As Memo would

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<v Speaker 1>would disclose classified information. And despite those objections and very

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<v Speaker 1>strong objections by those two departments, the President disclosed the

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<v Speaker 1>noon As Memo. Nonetheless, now with respect to the what

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<v Speaker 1>I referred to as the Shift Memo, the presidents doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>appear to be or now appears to be very concerned

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<v Speaker 1>about about national security information and is refusing to disclose

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<v Speaker 1>it based upon those grounds. And so there's a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of hypocrisy here with respect to the treatment of

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<v Speaker 1>the noon As Memo and the treatment of the of

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<v Speaker 1>the Shift Memo. So, but the Democrats have said that

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<v Speaker 1>they're willing to work with the FBI and the Justice Department.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that the way to go they should work with

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<v Speaker 1>them and have certain parts redacted. Well, well, certainly, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if there are some legitimate concerns that the Shift Memo

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<v Speaker 1>would disclose classified information, then it's certainly incumbent upon Adam

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<v Speaker 1>Shift to meet with both of those agencies to determine

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<v Speaker 1>what the specific problems are and try to address those

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<v Speaker 1>with respect to redaction or even if necessary, deletion of

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<v Speaker 1>certain portions. But it's important that the Democratic Memo come

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<v Speaker 1>out in pursuit of transparency and fairness. So now it's

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<v Speaker 1>been ten days since President Trump declassified the news memo.

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<v Speaker 1>What has the impact been? Well, I think ultimately, I

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<v Speaker 1>think there are many that would conclude that that it's

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<v Speaker 1>been a flop. The President maintained after the noon Ast

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<v Speaker 1>Memo was released that it it to only vindicated him

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<v Speaker 1>with respect to both the Russia investigation and claims of

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<v Speaker 1>obstruction of justice, and certainly it has not had had

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<v Speaker 1>that effect at all. In fact, I would argue that

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<v Speaker 1>the noon As Memo actually supports the legitimacy of the

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<v Speaker 1>Russia investigation and the credibility of the Russia investigation, because

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<v Speaker 1>it establishes that carter Page was on the radar screen

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<v Speaker 1>of the FBI as early as two thousand thirteen, well

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<v Speaker 1>before the Trump campaign, and the face of warrant wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>issued with respect to uh carter Page until I think

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<v Speaker 1>October of two thousand and sixteen, after he had left

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<v Speaker 1>the Trump campaign, so he had been on the radar

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<v Speaker 1>screen uh by the FBI for a number of years

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<v Speaker 1>with respect to concerns that he was possibly a foreign

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<v Speaker 1>agent of the Kremlin. Is it a problem, Jimmy that

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<v Speaker 1>most people are not reading the full memo or they

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<v Speaker 1>would see that it's about Carter page and doesn't mention Trump.

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<v Speaker 1>But most people are getting their news from other people's

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<v Speaker 1>interpretations of it, so they're not looking at the facts. No,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a problem, There's no question about it. Because again,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're just taking on face value claims the President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump is making, or or claims that are being advanced

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<v Speaker 1>arguments are being advanced by by the republic by the Republican,

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<v Speaker 1>you're obviously going to get a very very slantid view

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<v Speaker 1>of the evidence. And so again this underscores the importance

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<v Speaker 1>of the of the Shift Memo being disclosed, because I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's clear that that what's contained in that memo

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<v Speaker 1>is going to serve as a strong counterpoint and counter

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<v Speaker 1>argument to to the noon As Memo. So the Shift

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<v Speaker 1>Memo is ten pages, so perhaps less people will even

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<v Speaker 1>read that memo. But the argument has been made by

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<v Speaker 1>by some, even Democrats, that that it would be better

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<v Speaker 1>to just have dropped this, let it alone. Whatever damage

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<v Speaker 1>was done was done, and just move on and not

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<v Speaker 1>make this an issue a continuing issue. Right, Well, I

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<v Speaker 1>think that they're certainly merit to that because with respect

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<v Speaker 1>of the noon As memo, what it One of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that it revealed, of course, was the existence of

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<v Speaker 1>this face A want, this electronic surveillance national security want

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<v Speaker 1>on carter page, and those are those are supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be kept secret because of concerns that they're going to

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.560
<v Speaker 1>tip off the target and they may disclose sources and

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 1>methods of collecting national security information. And so if there

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 1>is this kind of continuing battle between the memos and

0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 1>and face A one, information is disclosed. In the end,

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.080
<v Speaker 1>this is going to damage and undermine national security. That's

0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 1>going to be the that's going to be the injury,

0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.720
<v Speaker 1>the ultimate damage with respect to this type of activity.

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.319
<v Speaker 1>So it's got to stop. But unfortunately we're hearing from

0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.960
<v Speaker 1>represent n if he has more memos that he's flating

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.600
<v Speaker 1>on disclosing in the near future, and so this battle

0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.320
<v Speaker 1>of the memos can continue, uh for the next several months.

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.520
<v Speaker 1>Do you believe that the FBI has really taken a

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.679
<v Speaker 1>hit as far as the American people are concerned at

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 1>the integrity of the FBI. Well, at least that if

0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 1>you follow and if you believe certain polls that have

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 1>come out recently, there are a substantial, substantial percentage of

0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Republicans that believe that the invested the Russia investigation, of course,

0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.840
<v Speaker 1>which is being conducted by the FBI, is not being

0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 1>conducted in an affair and honest way. And so clearly

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 1>this this campaign to to undermine the credibility and the

0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 1>integrity of the FBI is resonating at least with a

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:55.960
<v Speaker 1>substantial proportion of portion percentage of Republicans. And again that's

0:14:56.160 --> 0:15:01.400
<v Speaker 1>very that's a real tragedy here that this premier federal

0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.720
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement agency is taking the kind of hit regarding

0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 1>its integrity that it has taken over the last several months. Well,

0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.520
<v Speaker 1>thanks as always for being here, Jimmy, that's Professor Jimmy

0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Garola of Notre Dame Law School. Thanks for listening to

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 1>the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.040
<v Speaker 1>the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:31.160
<v Speaker 1>com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg yea