1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Quality dams, but Joseph's gotten more. I have this odd habit, 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: and granted, I'm kind of an odd bird anyway. You know, 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: who in the right mind would become a death investigator 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: and spend most of their time around the dead, right, 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: But I do have this odd habit of whenever I 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: go to certain locations that I have previously inhabited in 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: my life, I will look at those locations and I 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: will base upon my travels in those locations. I'll based 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 1: upon cases that I worked and the observations that I make. 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: My wife has has brought this to my attention on 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: numerous occasions throughout our married life, because I reflect on 12 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: these spots where death occurred, subsequently an investigation occurred, and 13 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: these places are marked in time for me. I often wonder, 14 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: even in towns I've never been to. I'll drive through 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 1: and think about houses and locations, and I think, has 16 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: there ever been a death investigation that's been handled there? 17 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: Because you know, places hold stories, they hold stories, they 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: hold on to history, and you never know what you're 19 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: going to find when you open any door. And for 20 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: me and those that work in the field of death investigation, 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: they are little surprises around every turn of the knob. 22 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. Yeah, Dave, 23 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, brother. I you know, Kim 24 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: and I will go over to Atlanta. We'll go home 25 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: to New Orleans, you know, every know, and then to 26 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: visit family. But when we do go to Atlanta, she's 27 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: brought it to my attention on number of number of 28 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: occasions where she'll say, you know, every time we come 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: over here, you always say I had a homicide there, 30 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: suicide there, motor vehicle accident there, or just some kind 31 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: of bizarre industrial accent or anything. And that's the way 32 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: you kind of mark it out in time and reflectively. 33 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: At this point in my in my life when when 34 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: I think about these things, I don't so much think 35 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: about the dead that were there, because they're gone. I 36 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: think about my actions in that space. Did I do 37 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: everything I should have done as a death investigator? Was 38 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I thorrow? Was I paying attention to detail? Was I, 39 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: as I say, up to snuff on my job? Because 40 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, you you reflect on those things, and you know, 41 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: you know death is so fine, and you know death 42 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: scenes are very final as well. You you know, I 43 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: often say that once you cross over a threshold into 44 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: a home where death has occurred. You can only cross 45 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: over that threshold once for the first time. That's a 46 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: bit confusing, maybe, but you can't go back and gather that. 47 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: So you have to be prepared when you walk in, 48 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: when you're going to do the assessment of the remains 49 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: that you find in the house. 50 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: I always think about you driving down the road, kind 51 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: of like in Captain America. But as he's on his 52 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: way to be turned into Captain America, he's the small, 53 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: skinny guy and he's going down the road and he 54 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: tells the woman he's with. He says, you know, I 55 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: got beat up in that alley way, got beat up 56 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: in that stairwell. 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: You know. 58 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: He's just pointing out all these different places where events 59 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: had happened to him. I think it makes sense that 60 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: that's how you go through it, and it does take 61 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: you to that next level of did I do these 62 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: things right? 63 00:03:58,720 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: There is. 64 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: In our lifetime a couple of crimes of the Century 65 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: trials of the century, one of them of course being 66 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: the O. J. Simpson trial, and there was a guy 67 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: named Dennis Fung. Dennis Fung collected evidence at the scene 68 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: at both at Bundy and Rockingham. He was there at 69 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: the scene for Nicole and Iron Goldman and then at 70 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: OJ's house, and he collected a lot of this evidence. 71 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: And during the Trial of the Century Barry Shck grilled 72 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 2: him really hard about his collection techniques. And my thought 73 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 2: in all of this is that you do only get 74 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: one by. 75 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: To the apple. Yes, you do. 76 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: After that, it's all downhill from here. You mess it 77 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: up at the beginning. You might set a murderer free. 78 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: You approach it like that every minute now you go to. 79 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: Him that that could potentially drove you to sanity if 80 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: you did that. What you try to do is just 81 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: imagine that you try to stick with a recipe, and 82 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: I was. We designed this national national curriculum for death 83 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: investigators many years ago, and the kind of theme that 84 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: we ran with was every scene, every time, and it 85 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: didn't matter. And the old catchphrase was it didn't matter 86 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: if you were in Manhattan, Kansas or Manhattan, n yc. 87 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: If you stuck to this recipe, these basics along the way, 88 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: then it's going to be in your best interest to 89 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: do this, because you're not going to stumble if you 90 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: just got this kind of But you know, the thing 91 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: about it is we're humans. So you you're going to 92 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: bring all of your crap that's going on in your 93 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: mind and everything else around it into that environment, and 94 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: it suddenly becomes a not so pristine procedural at that 95 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: point in time because you're influenced by do I have 96 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: enough money in the bank to pay my bills this month? 97 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: My daughter's got a dance recitle. I really like to 98 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: be at all these things are distracting, and so yeah, hey, 99 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: and back to den Swung. I'm glad you brought him up. 100 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: There's one thing that I always found fascinating about some 101 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: of those media images of dentists out there at the scene. 102 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: I urge anybody to look at this. He's walking around. 103 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: He's wearing a taibek suit and he's got on like things, 104 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: got shoe covers on. And what are the type k 105 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: suit suit we call bunny suits. Many times there are 106 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: those white suits that they're disposable, you zip them up, 107 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: and horrible to work in. I mean you lose like 108 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: five five pounds of water weight, you know when you 109 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: They're horrible. I mean it's just absolutely horrible. And don't 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: even get me started. I've got friend, I've never done this, 111 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: but I've got friends that are investigators that they all 112 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: they would do was work meth scenes and they would 113 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: have to wear a full a full rig that's different 114 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: than the Taveek suit. And they actually had you know, 115 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: a respirator a fan at the top of the thing. 116 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: And you talk about sweating to death and you're having 117 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: to first off, the thing could blow up on you, 118 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: and secondly, you're having to pay attention to evidentiary considerations 119 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: the hair the dot. Yeah. Yeah, So back to Dennis. 120 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: If you see, like there's a couple of those images 121 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: where you can see him in we'll say the bunny suit, 122 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, that's out there, and the detectives that are 123 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: out there are in their street clothes and they're traveling 124 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: over the same area. And I'm thinking, what's the point 125 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: And there's actually an image of one of the corner 126 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:54,559 Speaker 1: investigators and they're they're pushing, pushing the gurney. I guess 127 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: it has to be well, I guess it could be 128 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: either uh, well, it could be either one of the victims, 129 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: but she has no protection on either, you know, and 130 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: they're pushing the scurny, you know, through that area and 131 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So I don't know, and sometimes 132 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: those things can be taken out of context, but always 133 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: thought light, you know, every scene, every time. Yeah, it's 134 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: good for the goose, is good for the gander. You 135 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: apply these techniques at every moment. 136 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: But Joe, what about staying on that very quickly because 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: that case was so big? Yeah, you know, and even today, 138 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 2: television shows and specials that focus on that crime, whether 139 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: it's focusing on OJ Simpson as a person or as 140 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: the crime as a double homicide, whatever it is, gets 141 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: huge ratings. And there is yet another documentary on Netflix 142 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: right now, which is why this is top of mind 143 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: for me. But one of the things that took place 144 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: show and I wonder how many times you've had to 145 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: deal with this at the crime scene because there was media, 146 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: there were people standing by looking. I know you have 147 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: LOOKI lose at every crime scene. 148 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: Yes you do. 149 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: But the police actually ordered somebody to grab a blanket 150 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: from inside the house and spread it over the body 151 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: of Nicole Brown Simpson because her body was in a 152 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: position where the media could get video of it, and 153 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: he didn't want that, so they grab a blanket from 154 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: inside the house and cover her body immediately. Is from 155 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: inside her home. It could have any number of people's 156 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: DNA on it from the standpoint of all the people 157 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 2: who have ever been inside that house, including the guy 158 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 2: who becomes your big suspect O. J. 159 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: Simpson just could And I got to tell you that 160 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: same issue arose in Trayvon Martin as well. Wow. Really yeah? 161 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: And you know how you treat the body transfer if 162 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: you're covering, because look, I mean we got to face it. 163 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: I mean people, there are very few people out there 164 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: that are let me see, how can I say this. 165 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: There's different levels of comfort, psychological comfort. So as a practitioner, 166 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: if you're psychologically comfortable with being around a dead body, 167 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: you probably want that that's an asset. You're not distracted, 168 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: you're not terrified, you're not put off your game at 169 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: all because you know you're there to work to death. 170 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: But general public are very uncomfortable seeing dead bodies and 171 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: they have a real hard time day putting two and 172 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: two together. I think, like, why do we leave bodies uncovered? 173 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: That seems just lay people, you know, have people laying 174 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: in the middle of the road, And yet it does 175 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: get to a point many times where's very it becomes disrespectful. 176 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: But there's also things that we're thinking about, is like 177 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: transfer of evidence and all those sort of things. So 178 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, you have to matter because the investigator's perception 179 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: is different than the general public that might be. You 180 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: know used term lookie Lou, and I love that term, 181 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: where they're watching everything that you do and you know 182 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: they're there, and I've had people screaming outside the tape 183 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: us to cover him up. You're being disrespectful. His mom's 184 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: here and you know, or his cousin's here or whatever 185 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: it is, and they're screaming back and forth and they 186 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: don't have they're caught up in that moment. They don't 187 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: really have an understanding of the bigger picture. You know, 188 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: we're trying to do this first off without contaminating the 189 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: body because the body's pristine at that point, and we 190 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: have our own reasons for not covering the body immediately. 191 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: But that's where, you know, the assessment of the remains 192 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: really comes in. And that's one of the things I 193 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: wanted to talk talk about to try to help help 194 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: our friends understand why it is that we do what 195 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: we do. You know, at a scene, and particularly it's 196 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: one thing to assess a body. Dave at at the 197 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: morgue in a very protected environment. But that doesn't, in 198 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: my opinion at least doesn't have as much value as 199 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 1: that initial assessment that you haven't seen. And again it's 200 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: back to a word that you and I use a 201 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: lot in its context. When you have a body that's 202 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: in the morgue is completely out of context. Okay, you've 203 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: got a body in the field. And when I say 204 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: in the field, I mean like indoor outdoor scene. You've 205 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: got it in context at that point. So you have 206 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: to observe the body at that moment to time and 207 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: be able to appreciate what may or may not have happened. 208 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: Whenever you approach human remains in the field from a 209 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 1: medical lead perspective, there's a way that we have to 210 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: go about assessing them that's going to And it's just 211 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: understand if you've I urge anybody, if you've never watched 212 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: ballroom dancing, it seems like an odd, odd kind of 213 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: segue here, but ballroom dancing, watch how the partners move together. 214 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: It's quite amazing. You know they know or figure skating 215 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: or whatever. And imagine that at a scene you've got 216 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: multiple people trying to dance to the same tune and 217 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: not bump into each other. And it's very delicate, very 218 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: very delicate, you know, because if you're figure skating or 219 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: doing pairs, or if you're ballroom dancing, you know, back 220 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: to what you said earlier, there's no chance that if 221 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: you screw up, you're going to let a killer run 222 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: run free. And you know there's no penalty other than 223 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: points and maybe your pride. I don't know. I can 224 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: neither skate nor ballroom dance. I hope to learn how 225 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: to ballroom dance someday, you never know. Kim's been trying 226 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: to talk me into it. But I have had to 227 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: do a dance at crime scenes where and many times 228 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: these spaces are very very tight. Okay, I reflect back 229 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: times I've crawled under houses, and you really get to 230 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: know the people you're working with because your eyed eye. 231 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: If you've ever been in a crawl space in a house, 232 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: first off, I don't like going in them because I'm 233 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: claust phobic, But then put other people in there, and 234 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: you've got a body that's buried beneath the floorboards or 235 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. And yeah, John Wayne Gacy 236 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: was not the first person to do that. By the way, 237 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: and it's been done many times after him, and it 238 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: was done many times before him. So you have to 239 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: work in these tight spaces. You really have to know 240 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: what you're doing. And one of the first things that 241 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: you do as a medical legal death investigator when you 242 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: show up at the scene, even though somebody is telling 243 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: you that a subject is deceased, well, you've already formed 244 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: that in your mind as you're you know this, this 245 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: idea has been put forward, You've been told that they're deceased. 246 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: You're the one that's going to have to verify this 247 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: and write it down. I'm going to do my own examination. 248 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: So there's like, really briefly, there's what we refer to 249 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: as the seven cardinal signs of death, and they're very 250 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: easy to understand. So number one lack of respiration, And 251 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: how can you assess that You look. You can literally 252 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: look if you get adjacent to the body and try 253 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: to see if their chest is rising and falling. And yes, 254 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: I've come across people that actually care carry mirrors in 255 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: their bags to see if it will fog up. I've 256 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: never done that, but there are people out there that 257 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: do it. That's the old you know, that's the old 258 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: way of doing it. Lack of detectable pulse and heartbeat. 259 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: Now that is something I will do. I will go 260 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: with a gloved hand and I will check for a 261 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: KARATEID pulse because it's the easy it's for me. I 262 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: know that people in the medical field will probably they'll 263 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: have their their preference. I've checked for karates. I don't 264 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: go for the risk because if I can get exposure, 265 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: if I can have access to the neck, it makes 266 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: it easier. And generally the detectable pulse that you fill 267 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: in the croat, it is much more robust, say, than 268 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: trying to manipulate the risk. And particularly with the dead, 269 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: if you're an evidentiary consideration, you don't want to move 270 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: the arms because it takes them out of there, you know, 271 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: in their prisonine state. So yeah, you check for depect 272 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: detectable pulse and you know, maybe a heartbeat, check see 273 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: if the pupils are fixed, you know, non responsive to light. 274 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: Do that. And here's one that many people don't think about. 275 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: Our friends that are paramedics certainly know this, and nurses too, 276 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: uh is unresponsiveness to painful stimuli where uh, you know, 277 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: you do a sternal rub with a gloved hand, you 278 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: take your your knuckles and you rub it hard on 279 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: stern them and most of the time, you know, there's 280 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: a h a response to that. There's also something else, 281 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: and again I'm not a big fan of this, but uh, 282 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: touching the eyes because if somebody who is alive, they're 283 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: going to respond, unless they've got some kind of deep 284 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: neurological problem, they're going to they're going to respond. I mean, 285 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: you know, anybody's listening to me right now. If you 286 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: just try to take the tip of your finger and 287 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: touch your eyeball without you know, retracting in some way, 288 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's pretty amazing that you can do that. 289 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: But most people are going to respond to it and say, well, 290 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: that sounds kind of odd. Morgan, you go around opening eyes. 291 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: You know, most most of the dead that I came 292 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: across didn't have their eyes closed. And that's that's a 293 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: little thing. You know. I think that everybody assumes that 294 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: people close their eyes when they die, and that's not 295 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: the case. I'd say it was probably sixty forty for me. 296 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: Sixty percent of the cases I worked their eyes were open. 297 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: I didn't. You know, people don't always close their eyes 298 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: and That's another thing that troubles people that are out 299 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: at scenes. I found, particularly with new cops, they'll say, 300 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: aren't you going to close their eyes? You know? And 301 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: again a Hollywood thing. You know where you take and 302 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: you can do this, you know where they'll they'll pull 303 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: the eyelids down and that sort of thing because it 304 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: makes them. It makes people feel uncomfort Look, I'm uncomfortable 305 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: with people staring at me in the first place in 306 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: life that are alive. And you can imagine individuals how 307 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: uncomfortable it makes them so. And the other thing that 308 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: we do is is is checked for cold skin. What 309 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,719 Speaker 1: do you mean by cold skin? Well, even if you've 310 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: got surgical gloves on, when you put your hand on 311 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: the dead and at jack say, I teach my students 312 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: because they're young, they don't. Most of them have never 313 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 1: been around death in their life. There's the kind of 314 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: cold that mama warns you about when your kid put 315 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: a jack, don't put a hat on. That sort of 316 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: thing that's cold. And if you've ever had a spouse 317 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: that says, come here, I want you to feel something. 318 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: They put their hands on your face after you've been outside, 319 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: and of course you retract that's a particular kind of 320 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: cold that is an environmental cold. But I submit to 321 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: you that if you have, if you've never touched the dead, 322 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: there's a coolness that the dead have that's unlike anything 323 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: else that you'll ever remember. Uh uh, it's it stays 324 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: with you. And so we check the body and generally 325 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: in the past we've said, cull to the touch, warm 326 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: to the touch. The warmer the body is, the higher 327 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: the probability is that they haven't been dead that long. 328 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: And so, but there is a coolness to the skin 329 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: that's perceptible, you know that you can you can appreciate. 330 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: And of course the presence of some of our decompositional 331 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: factors you know that we've we've talked about with riger 332 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: mortis and live or mortise, are they present, because that's 333 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: not going to be present in the living. Uh. And 334 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: of course over signs of decomposition, you know, if there's 335 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: signs of maggot activity, you know, the train has left 336 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 1: station long ago, and so those are those are some 337 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: of the basics that we look for. 338 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: Back to riger mortis, Yeah, how quickly does that set in? 339 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: And I know that there's not an exact time, but 340 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: from the time a person actually breathes their last and 341 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 2: the time that they begin to get stiff to where 342 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: you can tell, yeah, how long. 343 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: Heat influences a lot. I've seen it begin to set 344 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: in in the small muscles of the face within two hours, 345 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: I think is the probably the quickest I've actually seen it. 346 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: Now there's something going on at a chemical level. It's 347 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: going on, you know, and it's just when is it 348 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: going to manifest itself? Right? And that's you know, and 349 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: it is a benchmark. It's certainly more reliable. Riger is 350 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: actually more more reliable than algar. Algor mortis is a 351 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: measurement of body temperature, which is so skew the data 352 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: is almost, as far as I'm concerned, is almost worthless. 353 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: Riger is a good indicator. I think post warm lividity 354 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: is even a better indicator of most mortem interval because 355 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: it's completely gravity dependent. Uh, and you see it pretty quickly, 356 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 1: you know. So, but but er, you know, riiger can't 357 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: set in, and it's going to set in in the 358 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: small muscles and then uh be appreciable. And so it's 359 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: happening everywhere simultaneously, you know, the jaw, even the eyelids. 360 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: The eyelids little muscles around the eyelids. They develop riger 361 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: in there too, and if you really got fone tuned 362 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: with it, you can actually there's a resistance when you 363 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: try to open the eyelids. So you're going through all 364 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: of this to try to understand what the status of 365 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: the body is before you ever get ever gone. 366 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: To a scene where they said, Joe, this guy's dead. 367 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 2: He's been, he's gone, and you go over there and 368 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: start looking and maybe he's not. But they've been walking 369 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: around while they're waiting for you, thinking this guy's dad. 370 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, not me. I have colleagues that had that happen. 371 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: Actually in Atlanta, a guy cut his wrist in a 372 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: warm back and he was sitting up in this bathtub 373 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: that was filled with bloody water. It was it was 374 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: horrible and as a matter of fact, my colleagues had 375 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: gotten there, and this is back when we still took polaroids. 376 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: It scenes. They took polaroid photos and thirty five millimeters 377 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: of this guy in the bathtub, and a forensic pathologist 378 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: that was in training actually went over to the bathtub 379 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: to do check for the cardinal signs of death, you know, 380 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: which is kind of standard stuff that we do and 381 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: went over and touched went to actually check for a 382 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: karate because his head was above the water so and 383 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: his hands are sitting up on the edge of the 384 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: of the bathtub. And this individual noticed that the subject's 385 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: hand went up moved responding. Now, the police and the 386 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: EMTs had been out there before us, obviously because they 387 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: called them, and the old investigator that had companied the 388 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: old investigator had accompanied the young doctor out there. The 389 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: doctor was in training. This individual told the investigator that 390 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: this guy's alive, and the investigator was shocked because this 391 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: is not something that happens, you know. You hear all 392 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: these stories about people waking up in a body bag, 393 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: of people waking up in coolers, and the reason there's 394 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: those cases are so shocking is because they rarely have 395 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: ever happened, and when they do, it's terrifying, you know, 396 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: it's the stuff of nightmares. And this investigator, this old 397 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: investigator started chewing ass at that moment Tom and didn't 398 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: stop for almost an hour. Relative to the police officers 399 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: outside the door, he got in his face like a 400 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: Marine Corps drill instructor using a knife, hand and everything, 401 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, screaming at him, getting them to start rolling 402 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: the ems back out there. The same crew came out. 403 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: You know what turned out this was like it was 404 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: like at the height of AIDS and they had not 405 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: bothered to stick their hands into the bloody water and 406 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: their EMT's. Dude, the air EMTs and stories actually got 407 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: a happy ending. They extricated guy, took him to the hospital, 408 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: sewed his wrist up, hung multiple units of blood on him. 409 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: Once he got stabilized, they sent him a psychiatric unit 410 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: and he got into treatment after that, survived that he 411 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: was that close to it. 412 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 2: I say, if not for a training, if not for 413 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: somebody in training being told to follow the rules after 414 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: everybody's already dismissed it, Yeah, if not for that, and 415 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: so you kind of credit the person who sent the 416 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: trainee over there to check on everything. 417 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the rules. Yeah yeah, you have to and 418 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: you never you know, it's it's an adage to this 419 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: the oldest time. You know, don't believe anything you hear 420 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: or what you're told. Yeah, he's dead, and that from 421 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: that moment time for me, when I would do an 422 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: assessment at the scene, I would begin to think about 423 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: that that case in particular, because I didn't know what 424 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: I was going to walk into you know. Now, I've 425 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: had cases over the years where you know, somebody is 426 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: of course I've had these, but you go out and 427 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: somebody is like, you know, substantially decomposed and you're not 428 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: necessarily you know, leaning into the whole, you know, cardinal 429 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: signs of death thing at that point in time. But 430 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: even with you know, the elderly, when we would go 431 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: out to scenes where we have an apparent natural death, 432 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: where people say this is a natural death before you 433 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 1: get out there and you're doing the assessment on some 434 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: eighty year old memo that's laying in the bed. Well, 435 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: what do the elderly always complain of, Well, they complain 436 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: of being cold, right, so their skin can be cool 437 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: to the touch, right, they go into these deep sleeps 438 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: that they're hard to rouse from, you know. And so 439 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: I always had that specter in the back. I didn't 440 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: want to be the guy that had a body zipped 441 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: up in a body bag and then next morning they 442 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: pull them out of the cooler. The bag is unzipped 443 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: and the person is struggling to breathe. They've been in 444 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: a cooler all night long, probably suffering from hypothermia. But 445 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: there's in a bag. No, you know, I mean that's 446 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: for me, that's the stuff of nightmares. Professionally, Yeah, hey, 447 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: let me ask you. 448 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, when you get to a crime scene, Joe, 449 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 2: from the very big there is a chain of command 450 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: of who is in charge at the scene. Yes, So 451 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: when when you arrive, yeah, are you now do you 452 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: come in because there is a body that's that's dead, 453 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 2: Do you then become the person in charge of the 454 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: scene for right now until the body is gone. 455 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: Yep. As long as the body is there, you run 456 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: the scene. And that's that's an old adage and it's 457 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: actually written into law and certain and in certain jurisdictions, 458 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of an understanding. Now, many times you'll have 459 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: police departments that will literally wait until the last minute 460 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: to call the corner. A lot of that has to 461 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: do with distrust. They don't view the corner as being 462 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: on the inside of you know what we you and 463 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: I have come to refer to as the investigative bubble, 464 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: and so they will do everything that they can to 465 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: avoid having the corner out there early. However, this is 466 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: a problem with that. First off, many of the departments 467 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: that you work that you work with when it comes 468 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: to homicide investigators. I would there was a period of 469 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,239 Speaker 1: time in Atlanta where I would look up at a 470 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: homicide scene and there'd be some new kid that's standing there, 471 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: and they refer to themselves back then as the Hat Squad. 472 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: There used to be a television show where the Hat Squad, 473 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, where they would wear these snap brim hats, 474 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: and they adopted that, and that was kind of this 475 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: sign you know that they're a homicide investigator, and they 476 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: were the only ones that wore these hats. Well, every 477 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: time I'd look up at a scene for a period 478 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: of time, there was a new kid wearing a snap 479 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: brim hat. He had no experience at all as a 480 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: homicide investigator. So the one constant in the universe, in 481 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: the world of death is the investigator of the corner investigator, 482 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: because you're always there. You know, we don't change jobs. 483 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: We don't move from homicide to burglary to armed robbery. 484 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: We don't get a promotion to lieutenant. It's just it's static. 485 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: We've got a very tiny rank structure. Chief investigator, senior investigators, investigators, 486 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: investigative assistants. In some jurisdictions, Chicago was famous for that 487 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: for a while, you know. So our rank structure is 488 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: very you know, and we're there to be death investigators. 489 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: With police departments, many times you'll have people that will 490 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: pass through as homicide detectives and by the time they 491 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: get to the end of where they're really good at 492 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: being a homicide detective, the department says, Okay, you're going 493 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: to be promoted or we're going to move you over 494 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: to another place, and you've lost all that knowledge. So 495 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: my whole point of this is that we're kind of 496 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: the I'm more of a fan of being out there early, 497 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: being part of the team. And in Atlanta that was case, 498 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they would call us out. Really in New 499 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: Orleans that was the case. We'd be a part of 500 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: the investigator process. But you hear horror stories all over 501 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: the place where you know, the police will delay, you know, 502 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: in summoning the corner or the emme to come out, 503 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: and sometimes that's that's they need to bear that burden rightfully, 504 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, because there are people that have not been trained. 505 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: They don't know where to put their feet, they don't 506 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: know what to do, they don't know they don't know 507 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: their place. Because everybody's got a place you know in 508 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: the environment. You don't do it by yourself. You can't 509 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: do it. You might think you can do it, but 510 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: you can't because there's too many moving parts. But you 511 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: have a specific job when you go out there. And 512 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: for me, it was the assessment of the remains and 513 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: trying to determine who they are immediately or get a 514 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: clue as to who they are. Might not know definitively 515 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: because I've had in cases I don't believe in driver's 516 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: licenses for firm ideas as starting place. I trust no 517 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: government document that I found with a body, because there 518 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: is too easy to be counterfeited. It's too easy. We 519 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: had these notorious identical twins in Atlanta that they were 520 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: never part of a death investigation, but they would notoriously 521 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: and cops would talk about them like it was some 522 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: kind of legend. They would swap each other's driver's licenses 523 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: all the time and you couldn't tell one from the other. 524 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: Teachers had the same experience with identical twins as well. 525 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: It's just that that part is in the criminal element. 526 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: It was kind of funny, you know when you think 527 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: about it, But you know when you begin to kind 528 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: of toss us around your mind. You're thinking, oh, wow, 529 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: you know, this is kind of it's a place to start, 530 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: but you have to know your spot in the pecking 531 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: order relative to death investigation and relative to the part 532 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: you're going to play when you're assessing a body. And 533 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: it's kind of amazing and you know, looking back over time, 534 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: and it's not that I'm anything special, it's just that 535 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: when it comes time to actually view the body and 536 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: assess the body at the scene, everybody that was doing 537 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 1: something else suddenly appears at your shoulder as you're knelt 538 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: over the dead body. Yeah, it's a weird thing. I 539 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: don't know how many of y'all can identify with this. 540 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: Have you ever? Have you ever been like at the 541 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: office at your job, either you're working under a car maybe, 542 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: or you're working in a bank or maybe I don't know. 543 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: I mean what you do. Maybe you're cooking and suddenly 544 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: you draw a crowd and people are looking over your 545 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: shoulder as you're writing like on a computer and everything's 546 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: appearing on screen and everybody's watching. You take that and 547 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: translate that into death investigation, because when you're the neo 548 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: and you're at at a scene, you're probably knelt over 549 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: the body bodies, assuming the bodies on the on the 550 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: ground right. You could be either in a house or 551 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: out out in the forest or wherever, and you're about 552 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: to examine this body. Suddenly it's the old Davis, the 553 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: old uh, the old ef Hutting commercial. You know, Younger 554 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: people are not going to understand that. Do your favorite, 555 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: do yourself a favor, Look up ef Hutting YouTube. Just 556 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: go check that out and you'll see what I'm saying. 557 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: When he speaks, he's listened. And so it's almost like 558 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: it's the final Christmas Christmas present, you know, and everybody 559 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: wants to watch you and the wrap because they're sitting 560 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: on hens and needles here. They want to know. They 561 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: want to try to understand the mechanism of death because 562 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: it might not necessarily be obvious. People think it's always obvious. 563 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: It's not. They won't see if there's anything visible. And 564 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: one of the things you have to fight when you're 565 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: doing an assessment, particularly on a homicide scene, is undressing 566 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: the body of the scene. It is. It's one of 567 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: the biggest no nos you can commit because you're so 568 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: you so much want that knowledge at that moment time, 569 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: because everything's revolving around the body. 570 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: And why that would be the case, why would you 571 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 2: do that? Well, you can't imagine. 572 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so with clothing, for instance, let's just say 573 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: we've got multiple gunshot ones okay, okay, and clothing. The 574 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: fabric of clothing moves differently from a rest of a body. Okay. Famously, 575 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin the black hoodie. Okay, that black hoodie fell 576 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: away from his body when he was shot by George 577 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: zimmer Zimmerman. So it fell away. He had an underlying 578 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: garment that was underneath that, but that that hoodie was 579 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: so big, you know, it fell away from that kid's 580 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: body and he's above George Zimmerman. Well, you lose all 581 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: relationship between the clothing. And if you disrupt that clothing, 582 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 1: even by unbuttoning a shirt, okay, now you've miss aligned 583 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: the buttons. Perhaps, are you going to go back and 584 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: re button it? Well, if I have to go back 585 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: and rebutton it, technically you're altering evidence at that moment 586 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: in tom Wow, because if the if the shirt was 587 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: buttoned when you got there, Okay, you photographed that shirt 588 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: being buttoned when you got there, before you ever touched 589 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: the body. Suddenly in the next images the bodies the 590 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: shirt is unbuttoned at the scene and you think that 591 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: I know, people, I can I can hear it right now. 592 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: People are saying that doesn't matter. Wrong, it does matter 593 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: because you people can actually say you're altering evidence at 594 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: that point in time. You want to try to do 595 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: the assessment at the scene to try to Now. Sometimes 596 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds, stab wounds are very obvious. You can appreciate them. 597 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: I've appreciated them dozens of times. Okay that scenes and 598 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: been able to, you know, formulate something about range of fire, 599 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: the type of instrument that's being used, that sort of stuff. 600 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: But you don't many times you'll have these outside voices. 601 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: That's why I like to work alone. You have these 602 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: outside voices that are saying, well, can you pull that 603 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: shirt up a little bit more, or let's pull his 604 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: pants down because there's something right here, or you know, 605 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: let's take the shoe off. The worst cases are I'm 606 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: thinking a couple of cases of impalements that I've had 607 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: over the years where you've had this huge object that 608 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: is sticking it's sticking out of the body and you 609 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: want to first off, people find it offensive to see 610 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: something sticking out of a body. I understand completely. But 611 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: if somebody's impaled like on a tree branch which I've had, 612 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: rebar which I've had, a fence post which I've had, 613 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: I'm not going to pull that thing out of the 614 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: body at the scene. I've had somebody killed with an arrow, 615 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: and as many cowboy pictures as I've watched over the 616 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: course of my life, and I've seen some guy snap 617 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: the thing off, you know, and pull appreciate out through 618 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: the other side dramatically. I'm not taking that out of 619 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: the body. I'm not going to adjust the body in 620 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: any way. Now. For instance, I had a guy that 621 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: was impaled on a center post chain link fencing on 622 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,800 Speaker 1: I and the thing hit him square between the eyes, 623 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: and he had aluminum post. I guess it's aluminum. It 624 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: has run out of the back of his head and 625 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: there's a core brain sample back down range of his 626 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: head and the car kept moving forward. One of the 627 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: most bizarre things I've ever seen. So I've got a 628 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: link the pipe hanging out of the back of his head, 629 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: I've got it protruding from the front of his head. 630 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: What do you do? You know, I'm not going to 631 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: go in there and put my foot on the back 632 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: of his neck and pull this thing out like I'm 633 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: king Arthur, you know. So we had to get a 634 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: torch and cut it on the back end in the 635 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: front and then go back to where that skin, bone 636 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: and brain core were and cut that bit out and 637 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: transport all that back to the morgue so that it 638 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: could be appreciated. And that's really an over the top example, 639 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: but it's happened multiple times. Your idea is to try 640 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: to remove things at the scene, or to try to 641 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: You don't want to alter anything. You want to try 642 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: to trent and this is a crazy concept. You want 643 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: to try to tran support the body back almost as 644 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: if it were still at the scene. If the body 645 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: body is laying on its side and it's got some 646 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: kind of uh uh uh and it's got some kind 647 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: of of uh of element that is protruding from the body, 648 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,959 Speaker 1: I'm not going to lay the body on its back. 649 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm putting the body on its side. If the individual 650 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: has their hands tied above their head, I'm not going 651 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: to break riger. I'm going to put them in a 652 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: bag with their hands still over their head, with their 653 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: hands bound. I'm not doing that. I'm not going to 654 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: take anything. Here's another thing. We don't remove nooses. That's wow, 655 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: and that's we will. We will take the noose off. 656 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: Remember we've heard about this, and list will detach it 657 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: from the hard point. Remember he had that in his 658 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: notes about hard points. We'll detach it from the hard point. 659 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: Noose is still going in on the person's body because 660 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: I don't want the pathologists to be able to see it, 661 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: and they will remove it. There's a very particular way 662 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: that you remove a noose and it's kind of fascinating. 663 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: Maybe I can get into that some other times. But 664 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: you want them to be able to see these things 665 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: in place the way you saw them, or is it 666 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: close to the way you saw them at the scene. 667 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 2: You mentioned Trayvon Martin and clothing Joe. Yeah, we're going 668 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: to go back to that very quickly because I understand 669 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 2: that once you've identified this person is deceased, they're dead 670 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 2: on scene. Freeze this so we actually have everything that 671 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 2: happened in that moment here. It is right here. But 672 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 2: when you have paramedics showing up and they're trying to 673 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 2: determine or save the life, Yeah, they're going to be 674 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 2: ripping you. They're going to be cutting clothing off and 675 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 2: everything else to try life saving measures. 676 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: And I want them to want to I want to 677 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,439 Speaker 1: rip my clothes off if I'm in cardiac arrest, right, yep. 678 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: But when you arrive on a scene where the body 679 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: is already gone there, the person is dead, and now 680 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,720 Speaker 2: we have a scene, it's a static scene. Nothing is changing. 681 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 2: It serves no purpose other than I guess a question 682 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 2: about trying to figure out what actually took place. You know, 683 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 2: I guess I can't end for the life of me, Joe, 684 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,000 Speaker 2: And I know I'm just a microphone guy. Why you 685 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 2: would take any clothing off of a dead body at 686 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:40,760 Speaker 2: the scene. 687 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: It's something that has There are very few reasons why 688 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:48,920 Speaker 1: you would do it. And one of the most troubling 689 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: things about the Martin case has to do for me forensically, 690 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: not the not everything else. It's that's another person's department. Okay, 691 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: that's not what I'm interested. I'm interested in his clothing. 692 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: So one of the most troubling things, and you know 693 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: this is I'm going back, you know, right now, to 694 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: back in time to this is when I got my 695 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: start on air, was Trayvon Martin and Jody Areas they 696 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: were kind of happening simultaneously, and me and Vinnie Politan 697 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: and we actually did a demonstration you can still find 698 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: it on YouTube of me on my back with a 699 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: plastic simulator gun that we used at Jack State. You know, 700 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: we had these mock up weapons. I me laying on 701 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: my back in the position that Zerman would have been 702 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: firing from, and Vinny literally leaning over me and his 703 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: tie falling away from his body. And I was doing 704 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: this to demonstrate range of fire and how it can 705 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: be when you're trying to assess that, and you know, 706 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 1: particularly as it applies to clothing. So enough of my 707 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: rambling there to get back to this point. You can 708 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: see these online. I urge everybody to go look at it. Okay, 709 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,760 Speaker 1: go look at Trayvon Martin's body in the grass before 710 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: they put the yellow blanket on him out of the 711 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 1: back of the trolman's car. That many questions were raised about, 712 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,799 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about transfer of evidence and all that. 713 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: By the way, they let this kid's body lay out 714 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: in the rain for a protracted period of time because 715 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: in Florida it rains all the time. In the evenings 716 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. It's like, I'm thinking, you know, 717 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,320 Speaker 1: looking back, and I'm thinking, do they not have tents 718 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,480 Speaker 1: in Florida? It just didn't make sense to be you know. 719 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 2: You got those hurry up tents. 720 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well you literally got CSI tents. I mean 721 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 1: they had made especially for this purpose. Anyway, So when 722 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: you see his body, he's wearing the hoodie okay at 723 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: the scene. Well, one of the most confusing things. And 724 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this verbatim just that you have it. 725 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: This is actually from doctor Bow's autopsy report, who, by 726 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: the way, was later fired. Doctor Bows actually discusses in 727 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: the opening paragraph of his autopsy report and what's referred 728 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: to as the external examination. This is when Trayvon Martin's 729 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 1: body has gotten back to the morgue. He actually states, 730 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: and I'm quoting here, the body is viewed. Are you 731 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,359 Speaker 1: ready for this, Dave unclothed at the scene. Yeah. And 732 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: here's the thing about it is the line before that 733 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: that opens the thing up is that the body is 734 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: secured in a blue body bag with medical Examiner seal number. 735 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: And he gives a seal number which is kind of 736 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 1: like the seal that you see, they're kind of like 737 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: the seals that people put on the back of eighteen wheelers, 738 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: you know, the doors, and it's got a stamp on 739 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: it with a number to say that nobody's broken into 740 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: the thing. We do that on bodybacks too, So you 741 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: put a seal on the zippers and you hold them together. 742 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: So he's admitting that the body has been sealed with 743 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: this thing. He states that when he who is the 744 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,240 Speaker 1: pro sector in this case, he is the lead medical 745 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 1: legal investigator. He states in his first sentence, the body 746 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: is viewed unclothed. The body is that of a normally 747 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 1: developed blackmail appearing stated age of seventeen. Okay, so he 748 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: goes through this external examination. Well, the big question that 749 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 1: we many of us had, and still I don't have 750 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: a definitive answer, is what happened to the clothing because 751 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: the hoodie is never mentioned in the autopsy report, and 752 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: the hoodie is I mean, just think, Dave, how many 753 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: times did you live on air mentioned the black hoodie? 754 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: You know, I mean it every time the case was covered. Well, 755 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: it's not mentioned by the forensic pathologist. And why that 756 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: is important is that if that hoodie was removed part 757 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: of the job of the forensic pathologist is trying to 758 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: understand relationship between particularly gunshot ones, between the distance of muzzle, 759 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,200 Speaker 1: distance from the end of the muzzle to the contacting 760 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 1: point on the clothing. All right, and this thing is 761 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:43,400 Speaker 1: all about, uh spatial relationship between Zenerman and and Martin. 762 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: If Trayvon Martin is bending over, okay, hoodie is large, 763 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 1: it falls away from his body. Well, it's going to 764 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: give the appearance that you know, he was shot at 765 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,840 Speaker 1: a distance if you don't have the hoodie. And he 766 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,720 Speaker 1: actually goes on to describe in his autopsy report that 767 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:13,280 Speaker 1: this gunshot wound appears to be not a close contact gunshot. 768 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: Wom fdl E gets the hoodie, they examine it, don't 769 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: know how it routed into their hands, and they say, 770 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: this is a contact gunfire event. You know where the 771 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: muzzle is actually touching the hoodie. Now, look, I'm not 772 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,000 Speaker 1: dragging this around and create some kind of conspiracy. I 773 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: mean it's there in the report, and it's one of 774 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: those big things that you want to know. How is 775 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: it that a body makes it back to the morgue 776 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:52,720 Speaker 1: in a sealed, locked body bag and the pro sector 777 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: does not examine the clothing because it's their job to 778 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 1: and the clothing. They remove the clothing at the morgue 779 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: and then it's turned over, so his spatial relation that 780 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: from a contextual standpoint, the pathologist spatial perception here is 781 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: going to be all disrupted because that one key, that barrier, 782 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: it's a cloth barrier, could hold a lot of answers, 783 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, because you're trying to determine range of fire 784 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: along with the body and the story you're being told 785 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: and so forth and so on, and so it becomes 786 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: very problematic. And again, you know, I think that this 787 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: is a good example of when you're doing the examination 788 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: on the body, when you're going through through positions of 789 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: bodies prone, supine, recumbent, you're talking about the relationship between 790 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: the body and any other surrounding evidence. You're talking about 791 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,920 Speaker 1: the volume of blood that has been spilled at the scene, 792 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: You're you know, you're talking about busted furniture that's lying 793 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,279 Speaker 1: adjacent to the scene. If that body in its full 794 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: context is not examined and documented at the scene as such, 795 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: anything that happens downstream from that is going to be 796 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: tainted in some way. And that's why it's so very 797 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,840 Speaker 1: important for us, you know, to when we're at the scene. 798 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: I've always held to the idea that you know, them 799 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: investigators are the eyes and the ears of the forensic 800 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,960 Speaker 1: pathologists at the scene, because pathologist is not going to 801 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 1: be at the scene. So what you're documenting at scene 802 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: is coming back, you know, to the pathologist so that 803 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,319 Speaker 1: they can work out this framework. It's very important, you know, 804 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: Like the Martin case, it's so complex. In one sense, 805 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: it's complex because of the news media and everything that started. 806 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: But actually, from a physical science standpoint, kind of simplistic 807 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,200 Speaker 1: thing here, and that one big element of that hoodie 808 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,960 Speaker 1: falling away, and the sparity between what the doctor's assessment 809 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: was and what fd l E firearms examination was completely different. 810 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 1: I mean, if you just read those stories, if you 811 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 1: read those things separate from one another, doesn't make any sense. 812 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: Are we even talking about the same case. You know, 813 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: the two observations that we're making here. You know, when 814 00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:33,799 Speaker 1: you think about the deposition of you know, of gunpowder 815 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: on the hoodie and of course the what you're seeing 816 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: manifested on the body by virtue of the defect that's 817 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: in the body generated by the gunfire from George Zimmerman's weapon. 818 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: That's why, you know, contextually is so important that the 819 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,400 Speaker 1: a couple of things that the body that you examined 820 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 1: the scene as well document it everything from position to 821 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:09,360 Speaker 1: you know, changes in the body and even to a 822 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:14,120 Speaker 1: certain extent the trauma that you can document without removing 823 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:20,400 Speaker 1: any clothing or changing the body in any way. But secondly, 824 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: and more importantly, I think probably can what you say, 825 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: can what you see and document at a scene hold 826 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: up in court? Is it valid? Is it actually demonstrative 827 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,840 Speaker 1: of those events that marked the end of somebody's life. 828 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: I think that that's certainly a point to ponder. Is 829 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: certainly something that all investigators going forward need to understand 830 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: that because what you do, what you do at a scene, 831 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,359 Speaker 1: again back to the old threshold, you can never do it. 832 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: The first time you cross that threshold is the last 833 00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 1: time you will cross that threshold, at least when it 834 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:13,239 Speaker 1: comes to death. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is 835 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:14,160 Speaker 1: bodybacks