Speaker 1: En being and wanting and admiring things. I think is
Speaker 1: something that we're told we shouldn't do, as opposed to
Speaker 1: something we should seek out and use for fuel for
Speaker 1: all of our endeavors. Welcome to the One You Feed.
Speaker 1: Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the
Speaker 1: thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or
Speaker 1: you are what you think ring true. And yet for
Speaker 1: many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.
Speaker 1: We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We
Speaker 1: see what we don't have instead of what we do.
Speaker 1: We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.
Speaker 1: But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It
Speaker 1: takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life
Speaker 1: worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep
Speaker 1: themselves moving in the right direction, how they their good Wolf.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Jessica Hagy. Jessica was, I believe, the third guest ever
Speaker 1: on the One You Feed podcast hundreds of episodes ago.
Speaker 1: We're super happy to have her back. She's a writer
Speaker 1: and an artist with many books. They've been translated into
Speaker 1: over a dozen languages. She's also the winner of a
Speaker 1: Webby Award for her blog Indexed, and everyone should do
Speaker 1: themselves a favor and look at these books and these
Speaker 1: diagrams that she makes, which are simultaneously hilarious, intelligent, thought provoking.
Speaker 1: It's hard to explain exactly what she does, so go
Speaker 1: out and check that out. And today Eric and Jessica
Speaker 1: will be discussing her book, How to Be Fearless in
Speaker 1: Seven Simple Steps. Hi, Jessica, welcome to the show. Hi,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. We are going to be
Speaker 1: discussing your book, how to Be Fearless in Seven Simple Steps,
Speaker 1: And we'll get to that in a minute, and we'll
Speaker 1: start with a parable in a minute. But I wanted
Speaker 1: to just say uh to you, thank you because you
Speaker 1: were I looked earlier. You were our third guest on
Speaker 1: this show. You were episode number three that we released,
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you being willing to come on way
Speaker 1: back then. It doesn't feel that long ago, to be honest,
Speaker 1: it stands out to me. Even though it was a
Speaker 1: long time ago, it still really stands out to me.
Speaker 1: I just felt like we had a really great connection then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm really glad to talk to you again. I'm
Speaker 1: happy to talk to you again. Also, I've kept up
Speaker 1: with your work over the years, which is the other
Speaker 1: reason to me it doesn't seem like a long time ago.
Speaker 1: Conversations with you are a little bit interesting because you
Speaker 1: are a somewhat visual artist. You combine words and diagrams
Speaker 1: to make really great points, and so for us to
Speaker 1: have this conversation is I feel like we are getting
Speaker 1: one dimension of you, not all your dimensions. So for listeners,
Speaker 1: I definitely encourage you to go look at Jessica's work
Speaker 1: because it's the diagrams and the drawings that really bring
Speaker 1: so much of this alive. It is always interesting to
Speaker 1: go onto podcasts and sort of try and describe what
Speaker 1: I do visually, because some people really get it when
Speaker 1: I talk about it, and some people are more like,
Speaker 1: what are you saying? So thank you for that intro. Yes,
Speaker 1: we will probably put like one of your drawings in
Speaker 1: the show notes so they're available, but even I don't
Speaker 1: even know that that will show up in all the
Speaker 1: podcast players. Anyway, folks, go check out Jessica's stuff. But
Speaker 1: let's jump in with the parable. There is a grandmother
Speaker 1: who's talking with her grandson. She says, in life, there
Speaker 1: are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grants and stops. And he thinks about it for
Speaker 1: a second, and he looks up at his grandmother. He says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. I have to say right now,
Speaker 1: the part of the wolf that I'm really trying to
Speaker 1: starve out is the wolf that is saying, everything's fine,
Speaker 1: everything is normal, you can be you can go right
Speaker 1: back to everything else all as well. And the part
Speaker 1: that I'm trying to feed is you need to learn
Speaker 1: from the past year or so. You need to really
Speaker 1: metabolize that experience and not just go bolting out the
Speaker 1: door pretending that everything is just as it was, Because
Speaker 1: I think we've all been through upheaval and not recognizing
Speaker 1: that and not letting it impact us is probably the
Speaker 1: wrong answer to going forward, what might that look like
Speaker 1: for you? Like, what are the things you need to metabolize?
Speaker 1: I think the things I need to metabolize are how
Speaker 1: my time is spent and where it is spent and
Speaker 1: who is spent with, and how I can best be
Speaker 1: my best self, not only to the work I do,
Speaker 1: which typically pre COVID everything. I was doing work in
Speaker 1: my space on my own and now I realized, oh,
Speaker 1: my family is here, how does this impact them? And
Speaker 1: they're sort of photo chap layer over everything else is
Speaker 1: really gotten. I think thicker and less transparent, and embedding
Speaker 1: myself both deeper and smartly in that space is important.
Speaker 1: So I don't think I can just go back to
Speaker 1: working all the time and thinking about things in my
Speaker 1: own space. But it's more about the weft in the
Speaker 1: weave of how my time fits with other people's time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are dealing with definitely some.
Speaker 1: I think upheaval is a good word. Is the world
Speaker 1: is opening back up. There are so many opportunities and
Speaker 1: requests coming at certain people to do so much, and
Speaker 1: they're having a really hard time sorting out which do
Speaker 1: I want to do and saying yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: because we're so eager, we haven't had opportunities to do
Speaker 1: much of anything, and so I know a lot of
Speaker 1: people are struggling with this and that there is some
Speaker 1: unease and hard to know how to discern. You know,
Speaker 1: we haven't had to discern what to do and what
Speaker 1: not to do as far as externally in quite some time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that sort of cleave between what is
Speaker 1: important and what is asked of us is something that
Speaker 1: we actually have to look at now as opposed to
Speaker 1: I have to do what I need to do, and
Speaker 1: now it's what do I really need to do? Because
Speaker 1: those spaces have been sort of tetris rearranged for everybody
Speaker 1: and seeing like what you need to do and where
Speaker 1: you need to be, those questions are different questions and
Speaker 1: the answers are different questions than we had before they are.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think being able to ask those questions
Speaker 1: is always fundamentally important. I think we've got a reset
Speaker 1: that allows us to ask them in fresher and newer
Speaker 1: ways perhaps. Yeah, And I think everybody is kind of
Speaker 1: sensing a little bit more of their own sort of
Speaker 1: my fate is more in my control, and I get
Speaker 1: to say yes to this and no to that, and
Speaker 1: again it's the wolf feeding parable of what do I
Speaker 1: really want and what can I do to make that happen?
Speaker 1: Because so many things that I don't want I realized
Speaker 1: are not mandatory right now, right right? Yeah. If your
Speaker 1: life was full of obligations and things that you didn't
Speaker 1: want to do, this was a lovely reset period because
Speaker 1: you can sort of see, like, I guess the world
Speaker 1: doesn't end if I don't do that, right. Isn't that
Speaker 1: a freeing moment where you're just like, oh huh, yeah, yea.
Speaker 1: So let's jump into your book, How to Be Fearless,
Speaker 1: And like I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of drawings
Speaker 1: and diagrams and words, but I want to start with
Speaker 1: a line from pretty early in the book which says
Speaker 1: it buried inside every fear is a hope. Say more
Speaker 1: about that. Yes, absolutely, So. What you are afraid of
Speaker 1: is what's stopping you from getting to where you need
Speaker 1: to be, And what you are afraid of is something
Speaker 1: that is a barrier between you and where you're happy
Speaker 1: and comfortable and powerful. Again, and I keep going back
Speaker 1: to the idea of fear and researching this book and
Speaker 1: reading all sorts of psychological papers and documents and other
Speaker 1: books about the idea of being afraid. It all really
Speaker 1: came down to, you don't have to be brave if
Speaker 1: you're not fighting anything, and so just being focused on, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what I'm after and this is what I'm
Speaker 1: going to do. All of a sudden, the things that
Speaker 1: are around it or behind it, or like getting in
Speaker 1: your own way really disappear because you focus instead on
Speaker 1: the actual reason that you're trying to do something. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I've heard a different phrasing of that from a teacher
Speaker 1: of acceptance and commitment therapy, and I think the phrase
Speaker 1: he used was our values and vulnerability sort of come
Speaker 1: out of the same vessel, had a lot of alliteration
Speaker 1: to it, but it speaks to this basic idea that
Speaker 1: you know, all vulnerabilities can tell us what's valuable to us,
Speaker 1: what matters to us. Yeah, it brings up the idea
Speaker 1: of the metaphor of the pearl or of a scar tissue,
Speaker 1: that just because something has happened to you doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you're not stronger because of it. Didn't mean you couldn't
Speaker 1: build up a beautiful way to get around it and
Speaker 1: solve for it, and I think the solving for what
Speaker 1: bothers us is actually like a very foundational point of
Speaker 1: strength for most people, because without any sort of challenge,
Speaker 1: we're never going to rise to an occasion of any kind.
Speaker 1: So step one is to be focused and you say,
Speaker 1: dwell on what you want instead of what worries you.
Speaker 1: I love that idea, and it seems to me that
Speaker 1: it's a slight pivot of attention, it's not a huge
Speaker 1: pivot of attention. Those two ideas really are very parallel
Speaker 1: and m meshed with each other. Because if what you're
Speaker 1: worried about is not getting to the next level, and
Speaker 1: what you really want is that next level, it's really
Speaker 1: up to you to say, Okay, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: leap frog that and say this is the best I
Speaker 1: can do, and I'm not going to think about the
Speaker 1: things that might hold me back. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: go and really enjoy what I like to do or
Speaker 1: what I'm focused on. I'm not going to think about
Speaker 1: the people who disagree with me or will fight with me,
Speaker 1: or will belittle me. I'm just going to like leap
Speaker 1: frog them and do the things that I need to
Speaker 1: do while keeping this framework of dwell on what you
Speaker 1: want instead of what worries you. How would you say,
Speaker 1: you know that we clearly look at the actual obstacles
Speaker 1: in our path, right, because we do need to be
Speaker 1: able to look at obstacles, create strategies, create plans around them,
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how we do that without
Speaker 1: getting into you know, dwelling on what worries us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think talking about this too, and thinking of this
Speaker 1: idea globally and not specifically. I really just kept looking
Speaker 1: at anecdotes of things like, oh, there's a boss that
Speaker 1: I don't think will help me, or there's a monetary
Speaker 1: cost that I don't know if I can get around,
Speaker 1: and again like they are always little creative ways that
Speaker 1: people will be like, well, I'm going to do it
Speaker 1: this way. If I want to learn this new thing,
Speaker 1: I have a library. If I want to be a
Speaker 1: better person to my spouse, I don't have to go
Speaker 1: out of my way. I just have to listen to
Speaker 1: them or subtle little shifts that whatever is in the way,
Speaker 1: if you ignore it and really focus on, okay, what
Speaker 1: I want, then the obstacle itself becomes so much smaller.
Speaker 1: We usually use those obstacles as excuses as opposed to
Speaker 1: like actual obstacles, and if we can kind of weave
Speaker 1: around them creatively with our own sort of greedy love,
Speaker 1: we can get to where we want to be better.
Speaker 1: That's a great phrase, greedy love, because it leads me
Speaker 1: into another of the ideas from this step one, which
Speaker 1: is to start with your envy. Envy isn't shameful, it's powerful.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting take on it. Yeah, I've always seen people,
Speaker 1: especially in the art space, where they find something that's
Speaker 1: just absolutely gorgeous and wonderful and they're like, I wish
Speaker 1: I had painted that, I wish I had written that,
Speaker 1: I wish I had done that already, And instead of
Speaker 1: getting angry about it, the really good artists I see
Speaker 1: are just like, I'm going to take my own methodologies
Speaker 1: and media and do something more like that. And that's
Speaker 1: that sort of motivation, because you don't know what you
Speaker 1: can be until you see it somewhere else that gives
Speaker 1: you that next step up. And envying and wanting and
Speaker 1: admiring things, I think is something that we're told we
Speaker 1: shouldn't do as opposed to something we should seek out
Speaker 1: and use for fuel for all of our endeavors, right,
Speaker 1: you know, at least in my experience, there's a couple
Speaker 1: of I don't know if the word I would use
Speaker 1: as caveats to that, but additional thoughts on that. You know,
Speaker 1: One is, You've got a diagram somewhere in the book,
Speaker 1: and I can't remember where, But you talk about a
Speaker 1: culture that commoditizes us, and we live in a culture
Speaker 1: that commoditizes everything, and a culture that markets relentlessly to
Speaker 1: our needs and our wants and very quickly makes us
Speaker 1: want things that don't really bring us happiness. And so
Speaker 1: it's funny like I have often resisted watching television because
Speaker 1: for me, I feel like I am easily manipulated into
Speaker 1: wanting something that if I didn't see it, I would
Speaker 1: never think I wanted it. But you show it to
Speaker 1: me on TV and this special light, and I'm all
Speaker 1: of a sudden like, oh, maybe I need that. And
Speaker 1: so I think that idea of envy, I agree it
Speaker 1: is powerful in the right way, and I think it
Speaker 1: takes some real discernment to know what's real envy, or
Speaker 1: to say it slightly differently, what's the real desire of
Speaker 1: my heart versus what I'm sort of sold into believe
Speaker 1: in is the desire of my heart. Oh yeah, So
Speaker 1: much of advertising is telling us too that we have
Speaker 1: flaws that need fixed. Whereas before we've seen the advertisement
Speaker 1: were like I didn't know that was something that could
Speaker 1: be even wrong with me, like oh what. But when
Speaker 1: we see something I think that like deeply prompts us
Speaker 1: to be like wow, that is magnificent, it tends not
Speaker 1: to be the things that were like oh I could
Speaker 1: probably use a snuggy around the campfire, or yeah I could,
Speaker 1: I could get that shampoo or something shallow like that.
Speaker 1: But the things that deeply trigger us aren't things that
Speaker 1: we can acquire. There are things we want to be,
Speaker 1: and I think of really good advertising makes us think
Speaker 1: that if we have something, will be someone else, and
Speaker 1: being someone else matters so much more to people than
Speaker 1: having something else. Yeah. I also heard a concept about envy,
Speaker 1: the type that you're describing, and it was basically, when
Speaker 1: you think that you look at something, you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: that was I really want to be like that I
Speaker 1: want and it feels like it's in range. That sort
Speaker 1: of envy is empowering and we go, yes, I can
Speaker 1: do that, and yet if it feels out of range
Speaker 1: doesn't motivate us. It demotivates us because we look at
Speaker 1: and go, no, way, can't get there? Yeah, what's applicable
Speaker 1: versus impossible? And what is something I can be versus
Speaker 1: something that I've been told I can't be? I think
Speaker 1: two is that's a level of fear, which is someone
Speaker 1: saying you should know your place, and your place is
Speaker 1: not where you aspire to be. And if people can
Speaker 1: say none at no, I'm going to do exactly what
Speaker 1: I think is beautiful and wonderful and helpful, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to go be that person. And that's important because
Speaker 1: so much of advertising and marketing and Instagram and Facebook,
Speaker 1: this is your place. The algorithm has told you this
Speaker 1: is your place and this is what you should want.
Speaker 1: And when we really are moved by actual feelings and
Speaker 1: wants and needs, those don't align with that algorithm at all.
Speaker 1: You keep referring to being the person we want to be.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if that word is very intentional, because
Speaker 1: very often when I'm teaching about values or intentions, that's
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about the person I
Speaker 1: want to be, not necessarily what I'm going to accomplish right,
Speaker 1: I might say I want to be a person that
Speaker 1: makes beautiful art versus I want to be an artist
Speaker 1: that has five million Instagram followers. Those are really different things.
Speaker 1: Which is and I think too that I think the
Speaker 1: person who makes the beautiful things because half the time,
Speaker 1: even if you talk to the people who are super
Speaker 1: super famous or wealthy or anything, they're still just looking
Speaker 1: for that satisfaction of the little flame inside me says
Speaker 1: this is who you are. And if I haven't fed
Speaker 1: that flame, if that little wolf is starving, then the
Speaker 1: rest of all of the exterior wealth and success doesn't
Speaker 1: matter at all. So, yeah, we're really talking about qualities
Speaker 1: of being and what we do. Yeah, and doing this
Speaker 1: entire book, it was I can get extremely academic and
Speaker 1: weirdly like old school philosophy, and like how do I
Speaker 1: translate that or how do I take those ideas and
Speaker 1: put them into formats that everybody can understand? And I
Speaker 1: think part of the whole process was really saying what
Speaker 1: are people feeling and how can I tap into that
Speaker 1: and pivot that a little bit, as opposed to dropping
Speaker 1: all sorts of Okay, so this is the historical context
Speaker 1: for your need right now and playing with ideas on
Speaker 1: that spectrum of very difficult to very approachable was something
Speaker 1: that I really played with a lot. Yeah, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: definitely on the very approachable side. I think that's the
Speaker 1: nature of some of your work. I think by boiling
Speaker 1: things down to diagrams, you cut through a lot of
Speaker 1: historical precedent and theory and all this different stuff, and
Speaker 1: you you boil it down to its essence. Yeah. If
Speaker 1: I can draw a diagram with three words that I
Speaker 1: think summarizes Lickenstein, then okay, cool, got it, And then
Speaker 1: you would never know that that was the origin of
Speaker 1: the idea behind that. And I think that is my
Speaker 1: job is to make interesting ideas that I come across
Speaker 1: really really approachable and palatable and metabolizeable for anybody who
Speaker 1: reads what I put out. Staying on this idea of
Speaker 1: hope a little bit, you know, hope animates what fear paralyzes.
Speaker 1: Hope builds what fear destroys. What are some ways that
Speaker 1: we build that hope? You know, we talked about one
Speaker 1: envy being one looking at what we want, But what
Speaker 1: are ways to build that hope? Because sometimes that hope
Speaker 1: seems very fragile exactly, And I think hope as an
Speaker 1: idea is more of a directionality. So you can be
Speaker 1: in a boat and looking way out at the horizon,
Speaker 1: and the horizon continues to move as you move. It's
Speaker 1: just a function of the physics of how we are.
Speaker 1: But looking out and saying I will get there, and
Speaker 1: having just a point somewhere to aim for gives us
Speaker 1: an anchor on what we're doing. If we don't have
Speaker 1: something that we're working toward, aiming toward, learning about, trying
Speaker 1: to get better at, then we'll just sort of paddle
Speaker 1: everywhere and it will just be treading water and you'll
Speaker 1: want to sink because there's nowhere to go. But as
Speaker 1: long as you do have somewhere to go, then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, there's a purpose to what you're working on,
Speaker 1: and that is a very animating feeling. Yeah, you have
Speaker 1: a line in there. Make plans to make progress, you know.
Speaker 1: I would say a lot of the work I do
Speaker 1: with coaching clients is exactly that we're making plans so
Speaker 1: that we can make progress. And there's a couple of
Speaker 1: really important points to that. I mean, one is, without
Speaker 1: a plan, like you said, I'm paddling everywhere. If I
Speaker 1: don't have a plan, it's hard to use my time. Well,
Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of reasons, but the other is
Speaker 1: if I have a plan in that land has some
Speaker 1: milestones I can sort of see like, oh, I'm making progress.
Speaker 1: You know. I started working with a coach again at
Speaker 1: the beginning of this year because I needed some of that.
Speaker 1: I felt like I needed some clearer progress points that
Speaker 1: I could say, yes, we're moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: because the movements, at least at the stage that we're at,
Speaker 1: their harder for me to discern. Yeah, and I think too,
Speaker 1: even if you pick the wrong endpoint, you still go
Speaker 1: somewhere and you still learn something, and you can change
Speaker 1: direction at any time. But just having that momentum of
Speaker 1: I'm going to read this book, I'm going to learn
Speaker 1: this idea, I'm going to figure out how this software works.
Speaker 1: Some small accomplishment motivates you to do more small accomplishments
Speaker 1: until all of a sudden you've done something huge and
Speaker 1: changed all sorts of things about your life. And it's
Speaker 1: just by making those like little steps like I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this thing, I'm going to do that thing,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make this happen and they don't have to
Speaker 1: be massive, they just have to be satisfied. Right. Step
Speaker 1: two is be hopeful. And I've been talking about hope
Speaker 1: all the time, way ahead of time. I'm completely out
Speaker 1: of order here, but you have a line there that
Speaker 1: I love. When fear tries to anchor you to a
Speaker 1: miserable moment, it's hope that will help you move on. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think when we do have those voices in our
Speaker 1: head and those recurring thoughts of you're trying to go
Speaker 1: to sleep and you think everything's fine, and then your
Speaker 1: brains like, you know how badly you like totally screwed
Speaker 1: that up that one time, and you're like, oh no,
Speaker 1: and that's the thing that you keep thinking about as
Speaker 1: opposed to the hundreds of times since that you've done
Speaker 1: really magnificent things. And I think our brains, I don't
Speaker 1: know why, are just wired for that sort of Maybe
Speaker 1: if we're aware of the missteps we've made, we won't
Speaker 1: make them again. Maybe it's a protective mechanism. But the
Speaker 1: idea of no thinking of the other things you can
Speaker 1: do is so much are useful and kinetic. Yeah, not
Speaker 1: to turn this into a conversation about me, but I
Speaker 1: was having a conversation with my coach the other day
Speaker 1: about this very thing, and I was reflecting these concerns
Speaker 1: about the changing media landscape. The media landscape is changing
Speaker 1: and small independent producers are getting squeezed people like us,
Speaker 1: you know, tons of money coming into blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: So I'm worried about that, which is a valid thing
Speaker 1: to be worried about. And he just said, but why
Speaker 1: do you think you're not going to figure that out?
Speaker 1: You've figured every other change out for the last seven years.
Speaker 1: You've navigated all the challenges that have come up. Why
Speaker 1: is it that you think this one you won't. And
Speaker 1: I didn't have a really good answer to that, except,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, it's that human tendency to sort of
Speaker 1: look for what's wrong. I've become more and more clear
Speaker 1: on how that negativity bias that we're wired with really
Speaker 1: impacts us. You know, it's our nature, that's what the
Speaker 1: brain is doing. It's like a problem, problem problem anywhere,
Speaker 1: you know, looking for problems. And so this idea of
Speaker 1: instead of when I'm looking at my doubts is to
Speaker 1: sort of repeat my hopes. Yeah, and I think too
Speaker 1: that we're so afraid of because our world right now
Speaker 1: is so precarious that if you make one mistake, oh,
Speaker 1: you could fall off a cliff suddenly, or oh you
Speaker 1: could lose your entire career and everything you have in
Speaker 1: your home and your family and everything like one mistake,
Speaker 1: instead of feeling like no, everything you've already built is
Speaker 1: a really solid foundation, and you have friends and colleagues
Speaker 1: and work, and you're going to be more okay than
Speaker 1: you think because of all you've done and all the
Speaker 1: people you've already reached. And that sort of idea of
Speaker 1: safety and progress is really in complete opposite to what
Speaker 1: our brain tells us, and what our culture tells us,
Speaker 1: and what our economy tells us about what our trajectories
Speaker 1: could be. I'm going to get us through all seven
Speaker 1: steps here, believe it or not. A step three is
Speaker 1: be resourceful, And I'm going to pull one line out
Speaker 1: from there, and then I would love to just ask
Speaker 1: you what you'd like to talk about from that section.
Speaker 1: But the line that struck me as resourcefulness is the
Speaker 1: art of finding treasure everywhere. So the idea of resourcefulness
Speaker 1: is the idea of creativity for people who don't think
Speaker 1: they're creative. Resourcefulness is oh, I know how to use
Speaker 1: these tools that I already have, or I know who
Speaker 1: to call to get this done, or I know how
Speaker 1: this supply chain works, and I'm going to access this
Speaker 1: point to get what you need to you at what time.
Speaker 1: And people, when they hear the word resourceful, they say, oh,
Speaker 1: I can do that. I can tap into things, I
Speaker 1: can tap into resources, I can work with what I have.
Speaker 1: But if you say creative, people say, oh, I'm not
Speaker 1: an artist. I don't paint, And they're the same sort
Speaker 1: of words when we get into the idea of building
Speaker 1: anything like building your life or building your project or
Speaker 1: building a goal, and resourcefulness really is that sort of
Speaker 1: I'm going to observe and I'm going to apply, and
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be the most human human I
Speaker 1: can be, because I think that's kind of the crux
Speaker 1: of what we are as creatures is we find things
Speaker 1: and we turn them into tools, and we turn those
Speaker 1: tools into entire civilizations. And we've all got that going
Speaker 1: for us. Anything else about resourcefulness you want to add, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people will think, like, I
Speaker 1: don't have anything. I don't have the privileges or the
Speaker 1: upbringings or the assets that I need to do what
Speaker 1: I want to do. But so much of finding your
Speaker 1: way out of that core of thinking is saying I
Speaker 1: was raised by amazing people. I was put in this
Speaker 1: beautiful place. I can call up on this and that,
Speaker 1: and I can figure this out, and my brain itself
Speaker 1: is a magical, powerful computer, and I'm going to get
Speaker 1: this done. And that sort of proud resourcefulness that is
Speaker 1: unexpected in so many of us is really what's going
Speaker 1: to propel us out of a fearful, frozen state and
Speaker 1: into a really active, impressive space. Right, and tying that
Speaker 1: back to hope. Right, when we have of hope, we
Speaker 1: are I think, naturally more resourceful. Right. If I have
Speaker 1: some degree of hope, I'm willing to sort of keep looking. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to keep looking for treasure. Whereas if I'm
Speaker 1: believing all my doubts, it only takes the first roadblock
Speaker 1: for me to go see, I couldn't I told you, you
Speaker 1: you know, I knew I couldn't do it, And so
Speaker 1: I never get the chance to be resourceful because the
Speaker 1: first block confirms the doubt that I am really living into.
Speaker 1: Instead of keeping my eye on the hopefulness and going Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, that didn't work. What what about trying this?
Speaker 1: And okay, now let's try this, and all right, what
Speaker 1: if I, you know, looked at it this way? And
Speaker 1: there was a metaphor about a guy with a metal detector,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, he only has the metal detector
Speaker 1: because he thinks he might find something, and he only
Speaker 1: sweeps it back and forth seven thousand times across this
Speaker 1: beach every morning, and he hasn't failed every sweep he makes.
Speaker 1: But on that like seventy morning when he finds a
Speaker 1: huge piece of gold, was he wrong the other days
Speaker 1: and other thousands of sweeps. No, like you proved himself
Speaker 1: for doing it and keeping with it and knowing that
Speaker 1: if he kept up with what he thought he could do,
Speaker 1: he would get it done. Step four is b earnest.
Speaker 1: Do not be afraid to admit you care deeply. Your
Speaker 1: intense emotions are your most precious power. Boy, I know
Speaker 1: a lot of people who think they're intense emotions are
Speaker 1: a real problem. Yeah, but so many of us take
Speaker 1: any emotion we have and are just like, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: feel that. I'm wrong to feel that. And the intensity,
Speaker 1: even if it's an ugly emotion like anger or rage
Speaker 1: or just greed or lust, those feelings are valid feelings
Speaker 1: and look at it and examine it and say, why
Speaker 1: am I feeling this? Who am I deep inside? What
Speaker 1: can I do with this feeling? As opposed to the
Speaker 1: people who swallow and deny themselves the truth of what
Speaker 1: they actually want to do or need to do or feel,
Speaker 1: and the repressing of I need this, I need to
Speaker 1: do this, I shouldn't do this is as scary as
Speaker 1: some like actual rage sometimes right, And as a person
Speaker 1: who has wrestled with depression a lot of his adult life,
Speaker 1: which I think, if I had to make a guess,
Speaker 1: has some roots in a constant repression for for the
Speaker 1: better part of my you know, my first twenty years.
Speaker 1: Strong emotion is an energy you can work with. It's
Speaker 1: a tool. It's absolutely a tool. Yeah, it provides energy.
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, lack of emotion deadness, my experience has
Speaker 1: been has been a harder thing to work with and transform.
Speaker 1: Not that it can't be done, not that there's not
Speaker 1: something there, but it's a much lower frequency vibration and
Speaker 1: so it's almost like you have to amplify the signal
Speaker 1: then transform it. Whereas if you've got plenty of signal,
Speaker 1: it's just about transforming it. Yeah, that numbness is a
Speaker 1: very frightening place to be because when you're just like,
Speaker 1: is this is this it? And am I trapped here?
Speaker 1: And it's just a quick, sandy feeling, where at least
Speaker 1: if you have something intense and powerful that is, this
Speaker 1: is telling me something. I'm responding to a stimuli somehow,
Speaker 1: I'm still here, I'm still my body is paying attention somehow,
Speaker 1: even if my mind doesn't know what to do with
Speaker 1: what my body is telling it. And when I've got
Speaker 1: like something like intense, or if I really care about
Speaker 1: something powerfully, I shouldn't be afraid to let that out
Speaker 1: and express it. Otherwise the status quo continues on and
Speaker 1: all we do is just sort of suffer along with it,
Speaker 1: and that numbness intensifies right right now. I think it
Speaker 1: gets back to that idea of buried inside every fear
Speaker 1: is a hope, or buried inside every strong negative emotion
Speaker 1: is a desire for something. Yeah, if you're feeling alone,
Speaker 1: you need something. If you're feeling angry, you need to
Speaker 1: solve a problem. If you're feeling absolutely depressed and isolated,
Speaker 1: you need support and backup. And sometimes we're so in
Speaker 1: the gray of those feelings that we don't see the
Speaker 1: contrast there. If it is really dark, there must be
Speaker 1: a really light side of this. And thinking of it
Speaker 1: in that sort of like curious hero visual sense of
Speaker 1: what our feelings look like, we can almost like track
Speaker 1: or like filter our way through the other. Thing with
Speaker 1: the earnest that you say is excuses, doubts, and procrastination
Speaker 1: are forms of fear. Let me rank these excuses. I
Speaker 1: think people might go maybe doubts, Sure, yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: form of fear. Procrastination. I don't know, is it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think when I was trying to figure out, why
Speaker 1: do people sort of resist taking action or resist doing
Speaker 1: something that they think they might fail at. And we'll
Speaker 1: put up all of these sort of like really off
Speaker 1: blocks around ourselves, like a puffy armor of well, I'm
Speaker 1: really busy and I really can't and I shouldn't and
Speaker 1: I don't do karaoke, But instead of just saying like
Speaker 1: I really want this and going for it and saying
Speaker 1: this is important to me, because I think those admissions
Speaker 1: feel really arrogant, and they feel really greedy, and they
Speaker 1: feel really who the hell do you think you are
Speaker 1: saying that? And a lot of us if we do
Speaker 1: say it's important to me and I'm myself and I'm
Speaker 1: going to go get that, and saying that to ourselves
Speaker 1: more than anyone else is what will get us into
Speaker 1: those spaces where we stop questioning is it okay for
Speaker 1: me to want this right? Right? And I do a
Speaker 1: lot of work with people on procrastination, and you know, procrastination,
Speaker 1: some of it is, you know, back to your point
Speaker 1: earlier about make plans to make progress. I think we
Speaker 1: procrastinate when we don't quite know what to do, when
Speaker 1: we're not sure the path forward, when there's ambiguity, you know, so,
Speaker 1: so clarity is really important. But then the next element
Speaker 1: really is procrastination because we're afraid we can't do it.
Speaker 1: We're just afraid we just don't have what it takes
Speaker 1: to do it. And do you find people are progressing
Speaker 1: out of a fear of failure or a fear of success?
Speaker 1: Because I think it's kind of like an equal balance
Speaker 1: half the time where you're just like, what are you
Speaker 1: really like putting off here? I think I see more
Speaker 1: fear of failure that tends to be more what I see.
Speaker 1: But I think fear of success is nebulous because it's
Speaker 1: harder to name what exactly am I afraid of with success?
Speaker 1: What does that look like for you? Well, so, even
Speaker 1: thinking about what an art project is going to look
Speaker 1: like at the end, I'm like, Oh, it has to
Speaker 1: be this in my brain, and then I do it
Speaker 1: and it looks different. Did I fail or did I
Speaker 1: succeed in a different way? And I think that's something
Speaker 1: that a lot of a lot of us actually have
Speaker 1: to think about, like did I really fail at this
Speaker 1: or did I just do something else really well? And
Speaker 1: I don't think we give ourselves enough credit for I
Speaker 1: did this absolutely different thing really really well because I
Speaker 1: kept doing something. That's a fear of success because you
Speaker 1: have to succeed in a certain way and anything else.
Speaker 1: If you're really, really, really just like zeroed in on
Speaker 1: that one little nebulous thing, all the other things just
Speaker 1: disappear and are worthless all of a sudden, and refocusing
Speaker 1: on oh, what I'm doing is actually really really useful
Speaker 1: and helpful, and it's okay that it's not what I
Speaker 1: thought it would be. You say, go to where fear
Speaker 1: cannot find you. Your happiest place is a safe harbor
Speaker 1: from fear. What do you mean by our happiest place?
Speaker 1: Do you mean literally go to a place I like
Speaker 1: to be? Do you mean imagine a place in my mind?
Speaker 1: Say more about that. I think everyone has their own
Speaker 1: place where they feel secure and safe and allowed to
Speaker 1: be themselves and do what is like innate to them.
Speaker 1: And for some people, it's with other people who understand them.
Speaker 1: It's with their found family. It's in a place where
Speaker 1: they feel safe and unguarded. It's in a workspace where
Speaker 1: they're supported. And when you think of what is your
Speaker 1: happy place, something will spring to your mind and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know what that. I know what that feels like.
Speaker 1: It could be an embrace, it could be a chair.
Speaker 1: It could be some park that only ten people in
Speaker 1: the city know about, but everybody knows exactly quickly where
Speaker 1: their place is. Yeah. There's a type of meditation called
Speaker 1: I rest and it's been used with a lot of veterans,
Speaker 1: a lot of people with PTSD, and it really is
Speaker 1: an interesting meditation protocol because it pulls multiple different what
Speaker 1: I would consider meditation types together into one. But one
Speaker 1: of the exercises is sort of defining your happy place,
Speaker 1: and in it it's actually you think of a place.
Speaker 1: It's a technique that you do in your mind to
Speaker 1: sort of ground and settle you. It's a retreat without
Speaker 1: having to go anywhere. In essence, I've always found it
Speaker 1: an interesting idea. I was reading about habits like that,
Speaker 1: and one of the things was when you know, when
Speaker 1: you are truly embodying or like feeling your way through
Speaker 1: a place, you know what it smells like, feels like,
Speaker 1: your temperature changes, everything about your experience becomes of that place.
Speaker 1: And that's true of if you're triggered to think of
Speaker 1: something horrible or triggered to think of something absolutely soothing
Speaker 1: and welcoming, and just practicing that a little bit, it
Speaker 1: really is like, oh, even my heartbeat changes when I
Speaker 1: think about different locations where I could physically be, and
Speaker 1: it's it's a super powerful thing to put in your brain. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Step five is be connected. Connections with others are a
Speaker 1: powerful defense against fear. Say a little more about that. Yes,
Speaker 1: The one thing that I kept coming up on when
Speaker 1: I was reading about what are we afraid? What are
Speaker 1: we working against? Out sphere manifesting us and isolation was
Speaker 1: a key component of it triggers all the fear and
Speaker 1: all the like deep depression and terrible just I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do because I can't talk to anyone
Speaker 1: about it, and I don't know how to be because
Speaker 1: I don't have anyone to echo off of. And being
Speaker 1: out and about and learn, earning of different places where
Speaker 1: I could exist or different communities where I could join in.
Speaker 1: That really sort of again, it's an anchoring system of
Speaker 1: I belong here, I can do this in this space.
Speaker 1: And again, just even going through all of the Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what COVID is doing to people, This is
Speaker 1: what lockdown is doing to people. This is how isolation
Speaker 1: is affecting people who age out of friend groups because
Speaker 1: all of their friends pass away. How do we work
Speaker 1: with the very elderly or the very isolated and all
Speaker 1: of those ideas really where just one person can totally
Speaker 1: change how you react because you have one connection, you
Speaker 1: have one bullet point, you have one anchor, and finding
Speaker 1: those anchors just is amazingly powerful. Yeah. I heard a
Speaker 1: statistic the other day that I thought, can that be true?
Speaker 1: And then I said that to someone else's and I
Speaker 1: heard the statistic, and can that be true, and they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. So again, I don't know if it's true,
Speaker 1: but a couple of people validated it. Now is that,
Speaker 1: for the first time in history, the loneliest age group
Speaker 1: is like sixteen to twenty three. It was always the elderly.
Speaker 1: It's been the elderly for as long as anybody knows,
Speaker 1: and now it is the people that you would think
Speaker 1: of as having the most opportunity for connection and yet
Speaker 1: still being really lonely. So I don't know if they're
Speaker 1: more lonely than the elderly, but even the fact that
Speaker 1: it's that, if it's even close, is worrisome. I think
Speaker 1: reading a lot of I have to do a lot
Speaker 1: of school work to get into college. College is so important.
Speaker 1: If I don't do college, what do I do. I
Speaker 1: can't go and hang out with everyone because everyone's already
Speaker 1: doing their things. But I'm connected to everyone on social media,
Speaker 1: which is just making me feel more isolated because everyone
Speaker 1: is doing things that I can't tell or real or not,
Speaker 1: and the other people that I don't really know on
Speaker 1: social media are doing things that don't even seem real
Speaker 1: at all. Who are you like? You're just trying to
Speaker 1: grow up and meet people and become who you are
Speaker 1: and your bombardi with you should be this and that
Speaker 1: and the other thing. And meanwhile, there's no one in
Speaker 1: real life to bounce it off of and say, it's
Speaker 1: this true? Is this is who you are? Like? What
Speaker 1: am I doing? What are you doing? What are we doing?
Speaker 1: Are we somebody? And I can totally see that that
Speaker 1: statistic rings true. Yeah, yeah, I find this idea. I
Speaker 1: think anybody who pays attention knows that loneliness isolation is
Speaker 1: incredibly bad for us. We're told it's worse than smoking
Speaker 1: three packs of cigarettes and whatever. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's three packs, but it's not good yet. It's one
Speaker 1: of those things that I think if you're in it,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to find your way out of m
Speaker 1: I think the loneliest I've ever felt was when I
Speaker 1: was surrounded by people at work, at school, at everywhere,
Speaker 1: but I didn't have anyone that was my deep, true friend.
Speaker 1: And finding someone that gets you, or even being out
Speaker 1: in the world and not having to perform a role
Speaker 1: that you've been told you have to perform, then you
Speaker 1: can connect with real p will who will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's it's you. Of course, that's a strangely freeing thing,
Speaker 1: is to just leave everyone who makes you feel lonely
Speaker 1: and find people who don't. And that is a strangely
Speaker 1: accidental process I found almost the entire time, and the
Speaker 1: idea of being open to the serendipity of others is
Speaker 1: half the battle. If you walk into a room and
Speaker 1: you say I'm going to just be myself and hopefully
Speaker 1: that works and other people do the same, that's how
Speaker 1: you end up with like really goofy, weird conversations and oh, hello,
Speaker 1: it's you. Of course it is. Yes, let's be friends.
Speaker 1: It goes against all of the you must behave yourself
Speaker 1: and look exactly right at all times sort of advice,
Speaker 1: which I don't think it has ever worked for a
Speaker 1: real connection. No, No, real connection takes some degree of,
Speaker 1: like you said, being yourself yet and the vulnerability of
Speaker 1: going against all the training you've taken from from everything
Speaker 1: that's made you lonely, the Instagram and the performance and
Speaker 1: the professionalism aspects of our lives and just shedding that
Speaker 1: and being I'm a human being. Hi. Yeah. We have
Speaker 1: this spiritual Habits program. It's a group program, and we
Speaker 1: take the big group and divide it up into smaller groups,
Speaker 1: and one of the most satisfying things for me has
Speaker 1: been watching some of those small groups form and become
Speaker 1: real friendships that endure over time. I think the element
Speaker 1: there is, yeah, somebody takes a chance. You know. Somebody
Speaker 1: was just telling me about we did a breakout group
Speaker 1: in one of our Sunday sessions and somebody said, we
Speaker 1: got into this breakout room and like, right out of
Speaker 1: the gate, one person just shared this incredibly vulnerable thing
Speaker 1: and boom, the whole room lit up and came alive.
Speaker 1: And I feel like I have four new friends, you know,
Speaker 1: because one person was willing to do it. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1: That's one of those magical sort of Oh, this is
Speaker 1: maybe how civilization started, right, Like, oh, it didn't happen
Speaker 1: because we called a meeting on zoom and we had
Speaker 1: five people talk about three bullet points. No, it was
Speaker 1: more just Hi, I'm here and this is part of me,
Speaker 1: and other people are like, oh, I'm here, and here's
Speaker 1: a part of me too. And those parts are sticky. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you talk about be connected as a way of
Speaker 1: helping with being fearless, and you know, one of things
Speaker 1: I found really helpful about connection is that I've had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to interview lots of really amazing people. And
Speaker 1: what's been really great for me is I've realized, like
Speaker 1: they're all afraid sometimes, no matter how successful they've been there,
Speaker 1: like I have written five New York Times bestsellers, but
Speaker 1: this time I'm going to fall flat on my face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's very normalizing. You go, oh yeah, even these
Speaker 1: people I look up to have these things. And so
Speaker 1: that's what you know. Connection can be so powerful. Um
Speaker 1: you say, fear isolates, shames, segregates, and weakens us. Fearlessness
Speaker 1: is togetherness. Yeah, And like you said, like knowing that
Speaker 1: people you look up to our human and fragile as well,
Speaker 1: that fills in the gaps in you, and it lets
Speaker 1: them say I have gaps, and I don't have to
Speaker 1: pretend I don't. Because people who put off that sort
Speaker 1: of I'm an expert, I'm infallible. That feels automatically doubtful,
Speaker 1: you know, because you're like, no, you're just you're somebody, right,
Speaker 1: Like where's your somebody? Yes? Having that bit of no,
Speaker 1: we're all just silly and we think that we're flukes
Speaker 1: and we think that everything good that's happened to us
Speaker 1: has been accidental and unearned and oh no, and everyone
Speaker 1: when everyone's like oh me too, that me too moment
Speaker 1: is is useful. Yeah. I had a client. We were
Speaker 1: talking about imposter syndrome and she worked in academia, and
Speaker 1: she said, you know, imposter syndrome and academia is a
Speaker 1: big thing. And so we had a workshop on impostor
Speaker 1: syndrome and they came in and they asked us to
Speaker 1: take this quiz, you know, rank yourself on impostor syndrome. Right,
Speaker 1: the person who scored the highest was the head of
Speaker 1: the department with all the PubL ish papers that everybody
Speaker 1: looked up to. And I just found that to be
Speaker 1: such a telling story of like, I'm sure everybody else
Speaker 1: in the room was like, I'm the impostor, he's the
Speaker 1: real deal, right, And he still felt the same thing.
Speaker 1: And what does it tell us that all of the
Speaker 1: messages that we're receiving can contradict our own absolute bullet
Speaker 1: points on a resume truths of ourselves, Like if everything
Speaker 1: out there is saying like you don't matter and you're
Speaker 1: wrong and you're faking it and you haven't earned this,
Speaker 1: like we have to give everybody that we meet, like
Speaker 1: so much slack for being everybody, because we've all been
Speaker 1: told that we're not enough. And if we just assume
Speaker 1: that everybody else is fantastic, we're probably going to be right.
Speaker 1: If we just assume everybody else is fantastic, we're probably
Speaker 1: going to be right. I don't know who it was
Speaker 1: at the quote. I feel like it was Nelson Mandela,
Speaker 1: like it never hurts to believe the best in someone
Speaker 1: will often be proved right or No, I think it's
Speaker 1: they'll often act the better because of it, right, like you.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're going to go into a room
Speaker 1: and set up some expectations, why not just assume everything's
Speaker 1: great and then no one feels ashamed of worry. Like
Speaker 1: that's a huge gift to give to somebody, totally, And
Speaker 1: you know, what you just said there reminds me of
Speaker 1: there's this general idea that so much of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about here are the stories that we create. I
Speaker 1: can do it or I can't do it. No one knows.
Speaker 1: The future is not written so by nature. If I
Speaker 1: say I can do it, I'm making up a story.
Speaker 1: And if I say I can't do it, I'm making
Speaker 1: up a story. It's not there's no fact, there's no reality,
Speaker 1: there's no truth. And so if we're making it up,
Speaker 1: you know, if I walk into a room full of
Speaker 1: people and I'm like, those people are jerks, that's a story.
Speaker 1: If I say they're all wonderful people, same thing. Why
Speaker 1: not pick ones that empower us? Yeah, and when we
Speaker 1: if we do assume all sorts of abilities and trust
Speaker 1: in other people, that's probably going to build us a
Speaker 1: better foundation of whatever it is we're trying to do.
Speaker 1: Then assuming people are stupid out to get us bad
Speaker 1: and it doesn't do us any good, it just makes
Speaker 1: us more terrified of everyone else, as opposed to just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I've got six people in this room, we've got this.
Speaker 1: I don't need to know what they're capable of, but
Speaker 1: there are six of us. We've got it done. Yeah. Absolutely, Well,
Speaker 1: we did not get through all seven points. A matter
Speaker 1: of fact, we got through five and a half. So
Speaker 1: we're going to finish the last two points. Okay, we
Speaker 1: have we have two and a half points to get through.
Speaker 1: We're going to do it in the post show conversation.
Speaker 1: And these are two of my favorite points. Be aware
Speaker 1: and be curious, So we'll do that in the post
Speaker 1: show conversation listeners. If you'd like access to that post
Speaker 1: show conversation to a special episode I do each week
Speaker 1: called a teaching song and a poem. Add free episodes
Speaker 1: and other member benefits as well as the joy of
Speaker 1: supporting and independent podcast. Go to one you feed dot
Speaker 1: net slash join and you can get all those details there. Jessica,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to come
Speaker 1: on the show. It's been a real pleasure. I was
Speaker 1: so happy to have you on four hundred episodes or
Speaker 1: something ago, and I am so glad to have you back.
Speaker 1: Congratulations on episodes. That's stunning. I hadn't realized it was
Speaker 1: that many. It's an awful lot. It's something like that. Um. Anyway,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for for coming back on. We'll
Speaker 1: have links to your information in the show notes and
Speaker 1: again listeners. If you don't see your diagrams, you're missing
Speaker 1: a huge portion of the genius of her work. If
Speaker 1: what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
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