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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When we as private

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Speaker 1: citizens get into an event that involves firearms, and in

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Speaker 1: certain circumstances we might have to discharge a firearm and

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Speaker 1: injure or kill another citizen, we can pretty much guarantee

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Speaker 1: that the police will investigate that incident. But what happens

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Speaker 1: when law enforcement shoots someone who investigates that and particularly

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Speaker 1: when you add an additional layer someone that is wanted,

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Speaker 1: someone that is in the national spotlight, someone that the

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Speaker 1: FBI and the US marshals have been searching for for

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Speaker 1: weeks upon weeks. Today we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 1: death of Roy McGrath. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is Bodybacks Dave mac so many people and you hear

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Speaker 1: it over and over and over again. Nowadays you hear

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Speaker 1: people say, well, who police is the police? And that's

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Speaker 1: a big question, isn't it. You think about when people

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Speaker 1: are shot that sort of thing by the police, you

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Speaker 1: know who investigates those events. And we've got an interesting

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Speaker 1: case to talk about today. And some people may have

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Speaker 1: heard about it. I had heard about it, but I'd

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Speaker 1: heard about it not from the perspective of this gentleman dying.

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Speaker 1: I'd heard about this gentleman, Roy McGrath, the subject of

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Speaker 1: our conversation today. I'd heard about him Upsot wisconding with

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of money and perhaps trust that may

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Speaker 1: have been misplaced in this particular case, Joe.

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Speaker 2: As children, we're told don't tell a lie. You're going

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Speaker 2: to have to keep repeating that lie and other lies

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Speaker 2: to cover up for the original lie. It makes good sense.

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Speaker 2: The thing is, some people don't learn that lesson, and

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Speaker 2: oftentimes they end up in politics. Roy McGrath is somebody

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Speaker 2: who did not learn that lesson. Apparently, when Governor Larry

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Speaker 2: Hogan appointed Roy McGrath to be his chief of staff

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Speaker 2: in Junior twenty twenty didn't surprise anybody. They'd been friends

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Speaker 2: and political allies since nineteen ninety two. I mean Roy

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Speaker 2: McGrath actually was still in college when he worked on

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Speaker 2: the nineteen ninety two campaign for Larry Hogan, when Hogan

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Speaker 2: was running against Stenny Hoyer for a congressional seat. Now,

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Speaker 2: they lost that election, but they remained friends and worked

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Speaker 2: together over the years. When Larry Hogan became Governor Larry Hogan,

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Speaker 2: he appointed Roy McGrath to head up the Maryland Environmental

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Speaker 2: Service THEMES. It's a job that pays over two hundred

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars a year, so McGrath heads that up

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years. Larry Hogan needs a new

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Speaker 2: chief of staff, so the Governor of Maryland announces that

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Speaker 2: Roy McGrath is his new chief of staff. He begins

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Speaker 2: June first, twenty twenty. Nobody shocked at that. What the

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Speaker 2: shock happened was a couple of months later, Baltimore Sun

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Speaker 2: starts looking into a severance package that Roy McGrath got

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Speaker 2: when he left the MAS, the Maryland Environmental Service. Because

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Speaker 2: when you are fired from a job, you oftentimes are

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Speaker 2: given a severance package, but you don't get a severance

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Speaker 2: package when you quit. And yet Roy McGrath received a

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Speaker 2: very healthy severance package, a golden parachute when he left THEMES.

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Speaker 2: And that's what caught the attention of this investigative reporter

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Speaker 2: with the Baltimore Sun. When he got the severance package.

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Speaker 2: He got it by telling the Maryland Environmental Service Board

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Speaker 2: of Directors that the governor, Governor Larry Hogan approved the

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Speaker 2: severance package. Mean, roy McGrath is telling the Governor the

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Speaker 2: board approved this. It was their decision a lie. He

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Speaker 2: also had a lot of paperwork and everything else that

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Speaker 2: he fraudulently cooked up to back up his life when

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Speaker 2: everything exploded. In August of twenty twenty, Governor Larry Hogan

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Speaker 2: accepts Roy McGrath's resignation. He asked for a massive audit

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Speaker 2: of the Maryland Environmental Service and charges followed. McGrath was

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Speaker 2: charged with embezzlement, he was charged with fraud. He was

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Speaker 2: charged with a number of things and was slated to

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Speaker 2: go to trial in March of twenty twenty three. He

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Speaker 2: didn't show up. That's where we are today in this story.

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Speaker 2: As we begin, Roy McGrath is on the run.

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Speaker 1: Well, it all comes down to this, and I think

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Speaker 1: even Bill Clinton said this number of years ago. There's

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Speaker 1: an old dog that sits up on a porch and

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Speaker 1: he chases the car for a long long time. What

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Speaker 1: do you do when you finally catch the car? And

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Speaker 1: that's then Roy McGrath was in. He's got the money.

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Speaker 1: Now what does he do going on the lamb. I've

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Speaker 1: always wondered what the origin of that term is. I

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Speaker 1: probably ought to look that up, David. I'm not really

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Speaker 1: sure because I used to get it confused. I would

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Speaker 1: hear people say going on the lamb, and I thought

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Speaker 1: that they were saying going on the land, and I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really make sense. I've heard people say take

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Speaker 1: it on the heel, take it on the hoof, get

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Speaker 1: out of here, leave, extricate yourself. But either way, you've

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Speaker 1: got a guy that's got a great big target on

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Speaker 1: his back because he's essentially staring Roy McGrath. That is,

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Speaker 1: he's staring at a failure to appear for a court hearing,

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Speaker 1: and he was supposed to show up, and you decide

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Speaker 1: not to do that. Instead, you decide to blast out

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Speaker 1: of town. And this is not like he's some nobody

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Speaker 1: that can just kind of blend into the scenery. This

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Speaker 1: is a guy that has already been in the news.

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Speaker 1: He's been seen standing at the podium next to pretty

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Speaker 1: high profile officials.

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Speaker 2: The governor of the state, the governor of the.

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Speaker 1: State of Maryland. The thought is, how in the world

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Speaker 1: are you going to try to fly under the radar

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Speaker 1: at this point in time. It's quite amazing when you

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Speaker 1: begin to think about I would think from my perspective

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Speaker 1: that you're going to do the best you can try

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Speaker 1: to get out of the country because other than that,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have the authorities looking for you. Dave.

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Speaker 2: So Larry Hogan now has this guy he's trusted for

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Speaker 2: over twenty years. He puts him in a position of power,

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Speaker 2: actually two great positions, because Larry Hogan assigned him to

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Speaker 2: the Maryland Environmental Service, a job that paid him a

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Speaker 2: buttload of money that he brings him on as chief

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Speaker 2: of staff. Larry Hogan put a lot into this relationship

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Speaker 2: and Roy McGrath truly benefited. But in the end, Larry

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Speaker 2: Hogan said, well, we're gonna have to have a forensic

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Speaker 2: audit because the Baltimore Sun, the newspaper article came out.

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Speaker 2: So McGrath reads this article and realizes, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: they know everything he didn't know.

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Speaker 1: That isn't that something? And that that's a trigger point

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Speaker 1: relative to what are you going to do? What is

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Speaker 1: this person going to do now when they're faced with

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Speaker 1: this and so, for from the perspective of an investigation,

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to track somebody down, you try to

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Speaker 1: understand what is it in the timeline that they're going

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Speaker 1: to do? What did they do once that information came

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Speaker 1: to them and that literally that cold cup of coffee

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Speaker 1: hit them. They realized at that moment Tom that they're

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Speaker 1: going to have to either turn themselves in and come

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Speaker 1: clean or get a defense attorney and say nothing, or

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Speaker 1: they're going to have to bolt. And McGrath chose to both.

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Speaker 1: And I guess it's the young the little boy that's

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Speaker 1: still within me. I was a big fan of Marshall,

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Speaker 1: Matt Dylan when I used to watch Gunsmoke, and you

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Speaker 1: think about the Marshall in town us Marshall. But they

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Speaker 1: have the premiere, the premiere fugitive squad that's out there,

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Speaker 1: and of course the FBI has a fugitive squad as well,

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Speaker 1: And so how are you going to elude these individuals

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Speaker 1: when you're trying because they have every bit of technology

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Speaker 1: that's out there, And first off, you're going to look

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Speaker 1: at bank accounts. You're going to try to understand what

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Speaker 1: is this person trying to subsist off of financially, because

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Speaker 1: you can't use a credit card that has your name

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Speaker 1: on it if you're going to try to get out

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Speaker 1: of the country and they have flagged you because they

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Speaker 1: know for a fact that you're wanted, because you've failed

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Speaker 1: to show up. Now you're not going to be able

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Speaker 1: to try to bolt out of the country. So you

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Speaker 1: can't buy a ticket necessarily to get out. You can't

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Speaker 1: use your passport because it's been flagged. And so I

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Speaker 1: guess at the end you think about it, well, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have to pay in cash, and how are

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Speaker 1: you going to convey your self about if I was

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Speaker 1: trying to fly under the radar, I don't think I'd

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Speaker 1: go out and buy an escalade or some high profile

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Speaker 1: car to try to fly under the radar. But this

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Speaker 1: kind of fits. And as an investigator, you're looking at

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Speaker 1: the profile that this person has, even in the state

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Speaker 1: of flight, if you will, this individual still by virtue

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Speaker 1: of the fact that we know that he bought this

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Speaker 1: high end vehicle to try to escape with, he couldn't escape,

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Speaker 1: that he couldn't escape the idea that he was living

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Speaker 1: beyond his means. You had mentioned earlier the idea of

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Speaker 1: golden parachute. Golden parachute is associated with people that essentially

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Speaker 1: leave big companies. You think about CEOs, and that was

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Speaker 1: another part. He wanted to be regarded in this environmental

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Speaker 1: company as a CEO. So now you've got a suspect

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Speaker 1: that views himself as something other than what he is,

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Speaker 1: which is a servant that has kind of a quasi

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Speaker 1: private job that's kind of meld together government and private interest.

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Speaker 1: He's not the CEO of motor manufacturer. He's not CEO

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Speaker 1: of Craft.

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Speaker 2: And Maryland Environmental Service. Why it was part private park

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Speaker 2: government it was. It was a government appointed position. He

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Speaker 2: was appointed by the governor of the State of Maryland.

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Speaker 2: But he actually kind of like the whole idea that

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Speaker 2: some people will say that this rich guy was born

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Speaker 2: on third base but thinks he hit a triple. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of how it became for Roy McGrath. But here's

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Speaker 2: what happened when he goes on the run. You mentioned

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Speaker 2: on the LAMB when he takes off, he was in Florida.

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Speaker 2: He and his wife had they bought property in Florida,

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Speaker 2: so he had money from somewhere.

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Speaker 1: You've got to be specific about where in Florida because

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Speaker 1: it's not like it look no offense to my friends

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Speaker 1: in PCB and Panama City. I love going to Panama City. Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's in Naples. I mean he might as well be

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Speaker 1: on that's like the American riviera down there. I mean

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Speaker 1: that's where like the really wealthy people go, I've been

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Speaker 1: there before. Here you have this alleged perpetrator at this

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Speaker 1: point in time that has gone on the lamb, and

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Speaker 1: he's doing it in a luxury vehicle, and he's also

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Speaker 1: shown up. It's not like he's taking off to Chicago

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Speaker 1: and kind of blending in on the South Side or something.

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Speaker 1: That's not what's going on. It's not like Fugitive you

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Speaker 1: know the movie. He's actually in Naples. So you've got

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Speaker 1: somebody that's fitting this profile. And how desperate is he

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Speaker 1: And from what I understand, McGrath was known to have weapons,

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Speaker 1: and so if that's the case, and the investigators that

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Speaker 1: are trying to track him down already have this awareness

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Speaker 1: that they could be in danger and some of their

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Speaker 1: agents can be in danger when they're trying to track

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Speaker 1: this guy down as well.

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Speaker 2: And that's the first thing they did. They got in Naples, Florida,

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Speaker 2: they meet with his wife and what was his plan?

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Speaker 2: He didn't show up for his court day to day?

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Speaker 2: What was his plan? Because if your plan is to

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Speaker 2: be in court and your plan was to fly, you

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Speaker 2: would have airline ticket reservation paid for all these things.

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Speaker 2: Would already be done ahead of time. You have to

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Speaker 2: plan to go to court, have to plan on a

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Speaker 2: place to stay. All that would have been arranged. So

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Speaker 2: they show up in Naples floor to add his six

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Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five thousand dollars house. The day he's

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Speaker 2: supposed to be in court. He's not there his wife

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Speaker 2: so I thought he's flying out this morning. Of course

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Speaker 2: he did, and she doesn't know where he is, so

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Speaker 2: she says, and we track him later. He's in the

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Speaker 2: Cadillac Escalade. And the next thing we find out is that,

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Speaker 2: of course he had no plans of ever being in court.

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Speaker 2: That's important. Roy McGrath had no plans of being in

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Speaker 2: court the day court was in session. He had no

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Speaker 2: plane reservation, he had no vehicle resume. You know, he

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Speaker 2: had nothing there Where he did have a plan was

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Speaker 2: to elude. And how he ended up in Knoxville, Tennessee.

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan is anybody's guests, But.

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Speaker 1: I do know this. I do know that Roy McGrath

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Speaker 1: pulled into a parking lot and his vehicle was surrounded.

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Speaker 1: He was never going to leave that parking lot, a lot,

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Speaker 1: either by his own hand or perhaps at the hand

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Speaker 1: of the police. The FBI Task Force had actually located

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Speaker 1: McGrath and this escalade vehicle that he's riding around. It's

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Speaker 1: a rather large suv. It stands out like a sore thumb.

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Speaker 1: They know what he's driving. They have identified this thing

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Speaker 1: just outside of Knoxville, and it's in a parking lot

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Speaker 1: that's shared by both a Costco warehouse store and a

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Speaker 1: Sonic which is fascinating to me because if he was

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Speaker 1: headed to Costco, you got to have a card, right

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Speaker 1: if you're going to purchase anything, which is kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: But when you think about it, all of the people

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Speaker 1: that might be circulating throughout that area it's in the evening,

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Speaker 1: who could come into harm's way, and they set up

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Speaker 1: a perimeter around him and from this event, this kind

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Speaker 1: of surrounding him, getting him in a position where they

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Speaker 1: have him corralled. This is where the story takes this

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Speaker 1: incredible turn because from a forensics perspective, this case involves gunfire,

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Speaker 1: that it is such a rare thing that you would

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Speaker 1: get an event that would occur like this, that this

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Speaker 1: is the type of a scene that after you processed it,

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Speaker 1: after the dust will settle, you would actually write an

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Speaker 1: academic paper about and present it. That's how unusual this is.

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Speaker 1: So just imagine, Dave. You've got this task force that

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Speaker 1: is surrounding his vehicle. He seated in the driver's seat.

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Speaker 1: They know that he has a weapon. Okay, they being

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Speaker 1: in the task force, they're giving him directions. Now when

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Speaker 1: you think about the police officers or the law enforcement officers,

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Speaker 1: the agents that are standing there, they're kind of creating

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Speaker 1: a perimeter around this thing. He stopped and they're telling him,

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Speaker 1: show your hands. And instead of showing his hands, they

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Speaker 1: can clearly see him take a weapon that he has

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Speaker 1: in his possession and raise it. Okay. Now, this is

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Speaker 1: all happening in the blink of an eye. And as

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Speaker 1: he raises this weapon in his right hand, he places

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Speaker 1: the muzzle of this weapon to his right temple. So

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Speaker 1: follow me here. He discharges this weapon now to his left.

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Speaker 1: If you think about you're sitting in the driver's seat

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Speaker 1: of a vehicle, there's an agent who has a weapon

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Speaker 1: trained on the grath. He sees this weapon being raised,

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Speaker 1: and all he can think of is I am going

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Speaker 1: to be in the direct line of fire. Because what

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Speaker 1: a lot of people I don't understand is that when

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Speaker 1: you discharge a weapon, even if an individual is discharging

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Speaker 1: this weapon into the right aspect of their head, that

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Speaker 1: bullet can actually travel through the head, through the window

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Speaker 1: of a vehicle and strike someone that's there. So for

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Speaker 1: this individual to put a weapon to his head and

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Speaker 1: there is a law enforcement officer to the left, that

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Speaker 1: law enforcement officer sees that as a threat. So guess

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Speaker 1: what he's going to try to do. He's going to

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Speaker 1: try to neutralize that threat. And this is where this

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Speaker 1: gets really interesting. At the same time Roy McGrath began

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Speaker 1: to put pressure on that trigger and began to apply

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Speaker 1: the correct pounds of pressure to actuate that hammer inside

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Speaker 1: that weapon, that FBI agent was raising his weapon and

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Speaker 1: concurrently placing pressure on his trigger. And guess what. These

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Speaker 1: two individuals fired these weapons simultaneously, and it was simultaneously

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Speaker 1: to the point, like I said, the twinkling of an eye.

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Speaker 1: Mcgrass round that he discharged into his head entered on

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Speaker 1: the right aspect of the head, traveled across his both

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Speaker 1: hemispheres of his brain. Now, the FBI agent fired at

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Speaker 1: McGrath and struck him in the left cheek, and from

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Speaker 1: what we can surmise, the trajectory of this round traveled

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Speaker 1: through the left cheek and actually wound up passing through

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Speaker 1: the cranial vault. Because what's fascinating is that you can

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Speaker 1: see on the passenger side of the vehicle, the passenger

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Speaker 1: window is blown out. You can see the cube safety

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Speaker 1: glass that is blown out and laying all about fragmented

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Speaker 1: on the ground. It gives you an indication that there

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Speaker 1: was a projectile that passed through there. One of the

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Speaker 1: problems that they encountered with the McGrath case, and it

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Speaker 1: took several months post death to try to determine what

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Speaker 1: manner of death this was going to be. Was it

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Speaker 1: going to be a suicide or was it going to

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Speaker 1: be a homicide. These two individuals firing at the same

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Speaker 1: time created two separate wound tracks traveling in opposite directions,

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Speaker 1: which is fascinating when you begin to think about it.

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Speaker 1: And most of the time when we're dealing with two

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Speaker 1: separate bullet tracks, one of the things that we're looking

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Speaker 1: for is to see if there's indwelling hemorrhage. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you for instance, if McGrath had fired his weapon and

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Speaker 1: it created a wound track, there would be hemorrhage in

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Speaker 1: dwelling in that now, after McGrath had fired his weapon.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say that the agent fired his weapon after

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Speaker 1: McGrath had ceased to breathe, that he was deceased, there

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Speaker 1: would be no hemorrhage in the wind track. What they

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Speaker 1: wound up discovering in this case is quite the conundrum

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Speaker 1: because both of these rounds apparently created woond tracks that

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Speaker 1: had indwelling hemorrhage, and both rounds traveled through areas of

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Speaker 1: the head that would be incompatible with life.

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Speaker 2: All right, So he's going this way and the bullet

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Speaker 2: from them the officer is coming to the opposite direction.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible two things? Is it possible that those

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Speaker 2: tracks could have crossed?

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Speaker 1: It is possible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as you're dissecting this injury post mortem and you're

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Speaker 2: looking at the brain and you're looking at all this

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Speaker 2: and putting it back together, and I'm kind of probably

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Speaker 2: confusing Iron Man and television programming with what I'm visioning

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Speaker 2: in my head of putting bullets back together and all that.

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Speaker 2: But in reality, doesn't head wound that it becomes fatal?

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Speaker 2: Isn't it something that isn't always immediately fatal? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you get a shot to the head and the person's

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Speaker 2: never going to recover from it, but they live a

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Speaker 2: little while, a half hour or so.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you mentioned this because let me

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Speaker 1: tell you what happens after this, and this kind of

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Speaker 1: further muddies the waters. They grab McGrath out of the vehicle,

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Speaker 1: and he still got what's referred to as agonal respirations,

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Speaker 1: which means his chest is it's rising and falling, all right.

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Speaker 1: So it hasn't impacted kind of the primal brain back

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Speaker 1: at our brain stem that functions to regulate the autonomic

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Speaker 1: nervous system. We don't have to think to make our

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Speaker 1: heartbeat right, we don't have to think to breathe. Those

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Speaker 1: are things that naturally occur. So his chest is still

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Speaker 1: rising and falling, his heart is still beating, and you

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Speaker 1: have them taking life saving measures in order to stabilize

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Speaker 1: him along the way. Now, at some point in time,

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Speaker 1: he probably did arrest, but I'm not saying he was arrested.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying he arrested at some point in time because

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Speaker 1: they're doing compressions and they're probably putting in an amboo bag,

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Speaker 1: which is the bag that they squeeze to blow oxygen

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Speaker 1: into your lungs. That he actually was pronounced dead at

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Speaker 1: a hospital almost I think it was right at twenty

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Speaker 1: seven minutes down range from when the the event actually

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Speaker 1: took place. So they had an ambulance crew Johnny on

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Speaker 1: the spot there and they're trying to resuscitate this guy

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Speaker 1: to get him to the hospital. But you know, when

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Speaker 1: an individual sustains this catastrophic kind of injury like this,

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Speaker 1: there's really not a lot of hope for them, and

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Speaker 1: not to mention, you've got two of them. So at

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Speaker 1: the morgue, what's fascinating is that these two gunshot wounds,

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Speaker 1: there's a high probability that the rounds themselves would have

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Speaker 1: fragmented at least to a minor degree. So the most

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Speaker 1: important thing that we can do is actually take X

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Speaker 1: rays prior to ever doing the dissection. And it can

359
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Speaker 1: be quite messy because you'll have a lot of clotted blood.

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Speaker 1: They'll be blood and brain matter extruding that's referred to

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Speaker 1: as extruding from both of these defects, and you might

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Speaker 1: have multiple defects. Here's the thing as well, they haven't

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Speaker 1: released fully released the autopsy report yet and so you

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Speaker 1: can have these extruding and at the scene. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that we do as investigators, if there's brain

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Speaker 1: matter left at the scene, we have to go out

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Speaker 1: and collect that. People don't think about that, but we

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Speaker 1: actually collect that brain matter and X ray it many

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Speaker 1: times separately because what are we looking for. Well, we

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Speaker 1: might be looking for bone fragments, and we all might

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Speaker 1: also be looking for little bits of lead that are

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Speaker 1: contained in there, anything that's radio opaque, and we'll try

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Speaker 1: to pick that out. Just imagine any X ray that

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Speaker 1: you've ever seen, and say, for instance, have you ever

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Speaker 1: seen someone that had an X ray done and they

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Speaker 1: were wearing a ring and you see the image that's

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Speaker 1: radio opaque. When you see you actually see the ring,

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Speaker 1: that metallic body that's there. It's kind of fascinating when

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Speaker 1: you think about it. But many times, when you have

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Speaker 1: these rounds that pass through that create what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as a lead storm, and you'll see these bits of

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Speaker 1: fragmented lead that are left behind in their trail, and

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Speaker 1: they're there and you can actually get an idea of

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Speaker 1: the trajectory of the round. It is a bona fide

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Speaker 1: mess when you have two rounds that could be communicating

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Speaker 1: the tracks actually could be communicating or there's so much

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Speaker 1: trauma when you begin to think about the fragmenting bone,

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Speaker 1: because it's not just the round that's passing through there.

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Speaker 1: When that round strikes what's referred to as the external

390
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Speaker 1: table of the skull, the skull is literally fragmented and

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Speaker 1: blown apart. So now you've created you don't just have

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Speaker 1: shrapnel from the projectile itself. Now you've got bone shrapnel.

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Speaker 1: You've got these little bitty sharp pieces of bone that

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Speaker 1: are floating around through the brain as well. And it's

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Speaker 1: very devastating. And I'm sure that probably the round that

396
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Speaker 1: the FBI was using was probably some type of holowpoint round.

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Speaker 1: So if you've got save, for instance, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: forty forty five caliber side arm that they're using, and

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Speaker 1: it's holow point if it expands, if the bullet actually expands,

400
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: because it's kind of they call it holow point, it's

401
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Speaker 1: kind of cupped out in the center when it expands.

402
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Speaker 1: You might have a round that might be forty caliber

403
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 1: when it's intact, okay, before it's fired, but if it expands,

404
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: it can expand out to fifty caliber. Because it creates

405
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Speaker 1: this it almost looks like a little mushroom opening up

406
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Speaker 1: and it expands and you're trying the purpose of the

407
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Speaker 1: bullet is to destroy as much tissue as it can.

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Speaker 1: Here's the problem, and this is what was so very

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Speaker 1: curious about the release that the medical examiner made in

410
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Speaker 1: Roy McGrath's case. They could not make a determination as

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Speaker 1: to how they wanted to rule this. Now, you know

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Speaker 1: that your cause of death is obviously going to be gunshowing.

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Speaker 1: But you know, we've only got five things to choose

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Speaker 1: from Dave, as we've talked about on bodybacks before. We've

415
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Speaker 1: either got a natural death, we've got accidental deaths, we've

416
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Speaker 1: got undetermined deaths, or we've got homicide or suicide. And

417
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Speaker 1: they couldn't make a determination about it. So right now

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Speaker 1: they have left his manner of death as actually undetermined,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of fascinating. They couldn't settle on an

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Speaker 1: actual manner how they were going to classify this death.

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Speaker 1: Sooner or later, the autopsy report will in fact be released,

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Speaker 1: and also the authorities will be compelled at some point

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Speaker 1: in time to make a final determination. An added part

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Speaker 1: to this that many people might not consider is that

425
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Speaker 1: early on we talked about on this episode, when a

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Speaker 1: private citizen engages in gun play, you're going to be

427
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Speaker 1: investigated by the police. Well, if the police in your

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Speaker 1: local jurisdiction shoots somebody, they will be investigated. They'll probably

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Speaker 1: be investigated by the state police, and.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be investigated to prove that it was

431
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: a justifiable shooting. Even when we and I look at

432
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: it and go it obviously is justifiable, they still have

433
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: to pull at every knit because they never know who's

434
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 2: going to file the lawsuit against them.

435
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, But here's the big question, the bigger question,

436
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: who investigates the FEDS when they shoot somebody? And what's

437
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: fascinating when you go back and read these reports, the

438
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: FBI is investigating itself.

439
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: I'm really having trouble with the idea that two people

440
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: that they're not sitting right next to one another, there

441
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: is distance. Roy McGrath is holding a gun to his head.

442
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: They're stippling from the shot. He pulls the trigger. The

443
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: FBI agent is pulling the trigger on his gun, and

444
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: we can't determine who did it first.

445
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: It would be very difficult to do, I think, because

446
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: it was apparently a simultaneous event. What I would be

447
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: fascinated to hear is was there an open mic out there?

448
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: I don't know that the FEDS are necessarily compelled to

449
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: wear body cams, but I wonder if any of the

450
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: local police officers were out there, and wouldn't that be fascinating.

451
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: Even going back to the Kennedy assassination, one of the

452
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 1: things that you think about are these acoustic I think

453
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: they call them acoustic shadows where you've got overlapping time

454
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: the open mic in Dallas that day when Kennedy was shot,

455
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, and you're trying to make sense of these

456
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: overlapping sounds, And wouldn't that be fascinating to try to

457
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: explore this is their audio that could be kind of

458
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: taken apart and begin to understand it. I don't know

459
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: that they're going to go that far with this case.

460
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: But when you're expanding and when you're looking at all

461
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: of this Joe and you're trying to put it all

462
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: back together to explain it in a courtroom if there

463
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: is a lawsuit, how do you sit down, as a

464
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: from a forensic standpoint and say, here, the bullet went

465
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: this way and exploded out here and took out the

466
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 2: back window. Here's the bullet that came from this one.

467
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: And know we can't determine which was the fatal shot

468
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: because they were both fatal.

469
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: I would answer your question by saying this, Dave. It's

470
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: the same thing that my granny taught me when I

471
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: was little, and that is to tell the truth. Sometimes

472
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: you have no definitive answer. All you can say is simply,

473
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, and from a scientific standpoint, there's no

474
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: shame in that. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags.

475
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 1: H