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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I hope my Stuff

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Speaker 1: I Never Told You a production of iHeartRadio, and in

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Speaker 1: our continuing end of the year Favorite episodes wrap up

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Speaker 1: bring Back, we're also choosing two of our favorite Bridget episodes.

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Speaker 1: Those are so wonderful they're hard to choose from. One

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Speaker 1: that really stuck out to me was the one we

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Speaker 1: did about Facebook's abortion blackout, where we were talking about

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Speaker 1: what Facebook was doing. They're saying they're doing free expression,

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Speaker 1: but in fact they're not doing that at all and

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Speaker 1: not doing anything with transparency, and it's just such a relevant,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately relevant conversation, and it's just really I think it's

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Speaker 1: a good reminder that we need to be aware of

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Speaker 1: what these companies are doing and just your existence and

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Speaker 1: data and how it operates in that space. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 1: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never Told You a productive iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: And today we are once again thrilled to be joined

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Speaker 1: by the fabulous, the fantastic Bridget Pod.

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Speaker 3: Welcome Bridget, thank you for having me back. I'm so

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Speaker 3: excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're so excited to have you always, but yes, we

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Speaker 1: were discussing beforehand. There's a lot for us that we

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Speaker 1: would like your expertise on. So always we appreciate you

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Speaker 1: coming on. There's so much going on right now. That

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Speaker 1: being said, how are you bridget.

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Speaker 3: You know, this week was I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: all feel it. I feel like the last few weeks

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Speaker 3: has been pretty rough. It feels like things are different.

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Speaker 3: It just feels like a shift in the air, which

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Speaker 3: can be hard to exist in, let alone make content

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Speaker 3: in that doesn't make people fearful and want to check out,

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Speaker 3: which I think maybe we're all kind of navigating.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, is that something that resonates with youtwo.

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Speaker 1: Yes, ah, yes, it's we make a lot of content

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Speaker 1: and we do try to mix things up, but we

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Speaker 1: also don't want to make more things. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: for instance, yesterday I just had a lot of trouble

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Speaker 1: concentrating on my work because I was thinking about all

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Speaker 1: this other stuff. I'm like, what's going on in the world?

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Speaker 1: What can I do? Which I've always maintained that if

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Speaker 1: you want to get more productivity out of people, then

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Speaker 1: they're going about it the completely wrong. But that's just

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Speaker 1: a very small personal gripe of mine. Uh, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's been it's been difficult.

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Speaker 2: You know. What I've discovered is these tiny little coloring

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Speaker 2: books that are really like easy coloring, so it's not

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Speaker 2: detailed because I've discovered as much as I like to

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Speaker 2: do those things, I cannot stay within the lines. And

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Speaker 2: when they get really like fancy, the adult coloring book versions,

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Speaker 2: like they get fancy and you have to do the shading,

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Speaker 2: and like, what is this? Why do I have so

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Speaker 2: many things to color? So I've discovered these tiny ones

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Speaker 2: that's just like a cutesy large pictures of like a milkshake.

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Speaker 2: It has been really nice that I can just check out,

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Speaker 2: stay inside the lines and color with a marker like

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Speaker 2: those little like you know, paint like markers that.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't really satisfying. Nice to like zone.

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Speaker 3: Out, Sam, you are speaking my language, because a good

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Speaker 3: I have a I've spent so much money on this,

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Speaker 3: but alcohol markers on Like, there's nothing quite like good marker.

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Speaker 3: A new set of markers. You're like, this is gonna

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Speaker 3: change everything. My future starts today. I've got this new

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Speaker 3: set of markers. Yes, and the one of the ones

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Speaker 3: that that I write really well are so satisfying. I

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Speaker 3: know I sound like a crazy person, but genuinely, the

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Speaker 3: appeal of finding the right set of markers can change everything.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I am obsessed with pins and well written

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Speaker 2: fine point pins, like it has to be fine points,

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Speaker 2: like the Chinese and Japanese have a market because they

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Speaker 2: have some of the best, like nicely flowing pins.

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Speaker 5: Even though my my handwriting.

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Speaker 2: Is really really bad, but I love the feel of

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Speaker 2: like a nice smooth rite. But with these, like the

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Speaker 2: alcohol markers as you're talking about, the only problem I

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Speaker 2: have is the color that reports that they say they

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Speaker 2: represent on the cap doesn't actually like translate in the marking.

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Speaker 5: So I'm like, oh, this is a yellow and it

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Speaker 5: turns orange.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, wait this is this is not but it

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Speaker 2: is very smooth and it is very satisfying because it

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Speaker 2: fills all the lines, and you're like, yes, I'm a professional.

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Speaker 4: Colorer, of course.

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Speaker 3: This is how This is how much I tell seriously,

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Speaker 3: I take this. When I get a new set of markers,

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Speaker 3: the first thing I do is a little colors watch

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Speaker 3: to be the oh they say orange, especially what their

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Speaker 3: orange looks like.

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Speaker 4: Just do I know, no surprises?

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Speaker 5: You know what?

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Speaker 2: That's good to That is great advice as a newly

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Speaker 2: marker purchasing person.

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Speaker 4: So thank you.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to i'ma have to get some like

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Speaker 2: scrap paper just so I can do that.

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Speaker 3: This is we can do a whole episode on this.

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Speaker 3: Let's just look pens markers my fans. It gives me

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Speaker 3: a head tingles even just talking about it. I love

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Speaker 3: it so much.

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Speaker 2: So since I did the like pre show, everything's the

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Speaker 2: worst I have to bring in. This is a solution,

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Speaker 2: and it's coloring, large small coloring books that with wonderful markers.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, that can be the antidote to our troubling times.

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Speaker 3: Have you considered just diving headfirst into the world of

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Speaker 3: markers and penmanship and calligraphy and and coloring.

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Speaker 1: It is quite nice.

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Speaker 5: It is quite nice.

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Speaker 4: Annie.

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Speaker 2: I will leave some for you. I know you're about

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Speaker 2: to house it for me, so I will leave some

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Speaker 2: for you to try out yourself.

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Speaker 1: You know I have. I have two main thoughts from this.

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Speaker 1: One is that I hate when this happens where your

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Speaker 1: birthday is coming up, Samantha, And I wish I had

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Speaker 1: known this earlier. Oh no, that would have been a

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Speaker 1: great gift. But then I think, bridget you should come

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Speaker 1: on one time and let us talk about something that's

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Speaker 1: not so stressful. Let's let's give let's give ourselves a

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Speaker 1: little break. We can talk about markers. I know you

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Speaker 1: mentioned like reality TV. We could have a whole thing

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Speaker 1: where it's not something.

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Speaker 2: So do you do all the like dark stuff we

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Speaker 2: should make Let you come in with the joys that

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Speaker 2: you have.

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Speaker 5: Because we just talked about the Adirondacks and everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like people who listen to my content

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Speaker 3: might not know that I experienced joy I have. I have.

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Speaker 4: The only things.

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Speaker 3: I talk about are not the crushing weight of fascism.

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Speaker 4: I also enjoying reality television. I think this would be fun.

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Speaker 1: I think we should look at it. I like it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: but unfortunately before today, we're not doing that today. This

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Speaker 1: is also the timing is interesting because we're Samantha and

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Speaker 1: I are working on an update on CPCs crisis Pregnancy Centers.

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Speaker 4: I know them very well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and we in our research ran into a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff about how tech companies were basically paying for

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Speaker 1: them to advertise or accepting their money and being misleading

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Speaker 1: about things. So this is very much related. What are

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Speaker 1: we talking about today, bridget.

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Speaker 4: Well, that is such a good transition because it's all related.

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Speaker 3: But tech companies really have put their thumbs on the

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Speaker 3: scale when it comes to being able to get accurate

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Speaker 3: content about abortion on social media. Your point about christ

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Speaker 3: his pregnancy centers and the way that Google essentially is

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Speaker 3: like paying an advertising network for them to exist is

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Speaker 3: a great example. But today I really wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about how social media is heavily moderating and even in

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Speaker 3: some cases like suppressing and censoring content about abortion. I

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Speaker 3: think that we all talked about this back in January,

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Speaker 3: But do y'all remember when Mark Zuckerberg had that moment

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Speaker 3: that people sort of talked about as his mask off

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Speaker 3: moment back in January when Trump came back into office.

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Speaker 3: I think that we were talking about how he really

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Speaker 3: started dressing like a divorced nightclub promoter and was saying

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Speaker 3: things like, Oh, we're taking the tampons out of the

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Speaker 3: washrooms at the restaurant. Here at Facebook, HQ just really

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Speaker 3: was sort of having a moment where he was saying

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Speaker 3: a lot of things.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember this.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, oh yes, he was like he leaned in hard,

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Speaker 1: he was hard.

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Speaker 5: He's been waiting for this moment, And yes, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 4: You could tell.

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Speaker 3: I mean I also I almost quibbled when people were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's his mask off moment, because I don't think that

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Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg has any kind of like I don't. I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't call it a mask off moment because I think

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Speaker 3: that he is the definition of a hollow, empty person,

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Speaker 3: and so I think he is the mask.

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Speaker 4: He will say anything.

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Speaker 3: I think that he has no he's I'm honestly fascinated

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Speaker 3: by him as a tech leader because I think that

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Speaker 3: he has no value, scruples, morals, there's just nothing. He

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Speaker 3: will say anything, he will do anything. However the wind blows,

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Speaker 3: that's how he will blow. And I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: fair to call that a mask moment when truly, like

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Speaker 3: what the mask is not is not hiding anything. This

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Speaker 3: is just genuinely like who you are, who you always

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Speaker 3: have been, just the soulless person who was waiting to

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Speaker 3: see who they should kiss up to you and will

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Speaker 3: do that if it means holding onto power.

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Speaker 2: Right, he was just waiting in the background, like his

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Speaker 2: true personality was just waiting in the shadows.

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Speaker 4: And then it's like, oh, oh ho, this is my moment,

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Speaker 4: and so when that all was going on.

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Speaker 3: He also announced that Meta was going to be scrapping

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Speaker 3: their community notes feature and scrapping all third party fact

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Speaker 3: checking on the platform, because, as he said, it was

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Speaker 3: time for the company to get back to their roots

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Speaker 3: when it comes to free expression. I will play a

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Speaker 3: little bit of a video that he put out talking

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Speaker 3: about this.

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Speaker 6: Hey, everyone, I want to talk about something important today

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Speaker 6: because it's time to get back to our roots around

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Speaker 6: free expression on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social

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Speaker 6: media to give people a voice. I gave a speech

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Speaker 6: at Georgetown five years ago about the importance of protecting

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Speaker 6: free expression and I still believe this today. But a

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Speaker 6: lot has happened over the last several years. There's been

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Speaker 6: widespread debate about potential harms from online content. Governments and

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Speaker 6: legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A

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Speaker 6: lot of this is clearly political, but there's also a

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Speaker 6: lot of legitimately bad stuff out there. Drugs, terrorism, child exploitation.

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Speaker 6: These are things that we take very seriously and I

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Speaker 6: want to make sure that we handle responsibly.

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Speaker 3: So to say about that, first of all, very convenient

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Speaker 3: rewriting of the history that frankly wasn't that long ago,

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Speaker 3: and that you if you're listening and you're my age,

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Speaker 3: you probably remember because we all know it is not

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Speaker 3: a secret that Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg created Facebook as a

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Speaker 3: college student to rank the looks of the women in

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Speaker 3: his on his college campus. Somehow we sort of let

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Speaker 3: him get away with being like, I created Facebook to

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Speaker 3: protect free expression. Okay, sure, I don't know. I always

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Speaker 3: have to like quibble at that because he I guess

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Speaker 3: saw a video where he said I created Facebook because

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Speaker 3: I wanted people to be able to have debates about

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Speaker 3: the Iraq war, and it's like, no, you did it.

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Speaker 3: First of all, I was an organizer in the anti

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Speaker 3: war movement. Nobody was communicating on Facebook when were like,

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Speaker 3: Facebook wasn't for that, So that's just not true. I

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Speaker 3: really have a thing where people lie to your face

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Speaker 3: about recent history that you remember that.

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Speaker 4: You were therefore that you were part of. So that's bullshit.

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Speaker 3: But even more than that, he's talking about how the

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Speaker 3: content that he really wants to focus on in terms

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Speaker 3: of moderating the platform is a legal content, right, child safety, harms,

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Speaker 3: drug trade, organized criminal activity, all of that. So this

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Speaker 3: is when he was really talking about how important it

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Speaker 3: was to protect free expression on social media platforms.

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Speaker 4: You'll might recall that.

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Speaker 3: Around this time he was in the headlines for saying

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Speaker 3: that you felt the Biden administration had been trying to

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Speaker 3: pressure Facebook into removing COVID misinformation. The White House had

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Speaker 3: a different take, saying, quote, when confronted with the deadly pandemic,

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Speaker 3: this administration encouraged responsible actions to protect public health and safety.

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Speaker 3: Our position has been very clear and consistent. We believe

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Speaker 3: tech companies and other private actors should take into account

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Speaker 3: the effects their actions have on the American people while

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Speaker 3: making independent choices about the information they present. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: Zuckerberg in this moment was like, we are not going

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Speaker 3: to be moderating political content the way that we have been.

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Speaker 3: We are going to lift restrictions on topics that are

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Speaker 3: part of mainstream discourse and really just focus on the

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Speaker 3: enforcement of a legal and like high severity violation.

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Speaker 4: So yay for free speech right.

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Speaker 3: That all sounds great, Well, all of that, It's only

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Speaker 3: the case if that part of the mainstream discourse is

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Speaker 3: not abortion, which Facebook continues to suppress and moderate quite

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Speaker 3: heavily with zero transparency and zero consistency.

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Speaker 4: So it seems like if.

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Speaker 3: You're spreading COVID misinformation, Well, that is protected speech that

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Speaker 3: needs to be left up for freedom. If you are

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Speaker 3: sharing accurate information about abortion that isn't even against metas policies,

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Speaker 3: they will take it down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you said, without warning or transpancy or

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Speaker 1: nothing just is gone. And you might not know why

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Speaker 1: or well, you could probably figure it out. But one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's really frustrating about all of this

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, like you said, they're kind of

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Speaker 1: lying to our faces, right, Like they're saying one thing

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Speaker 1: and doing something completely different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what really makes me angry about this. You know,

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Speaker 3: I cover a lot of tech companies. The thing that

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Speaker 3: gets me is when they lie when they say one

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Speaker 3: thing publicly, when they publish something in their rules and

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Speaker 3: regulations and policies. You know, no one's putting a gun

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Speaker 3: to their head and making them put these things in

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Speaker 3: their rules. They put them in their rules, and then

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Speaker 3: they do a completely different thing, and then when advocates

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Speaker 3: or organizers call them out on it, there's just no

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Speaker 3: they're just like, oops, what are you gonna do that?

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Speaker 3: For some reason, that just really gets me because they

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Speaker 3: are allowed to enjoy all of this positive press of

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Speaker 3: putting this thing in their policy and then continue doing

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Speaker 3: the shady work of going against that policy. It never

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Speaker 3: it never comes back at them like they're able to

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Speaker 3: just do whatever they want while saying one thing can

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Speaker 3: doing another. And I just don't feel like they really

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Speaker 3: get held accountable. And so a Meta spokesperson said that

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Speaker 3: taking down abortion content goes against Meta's own intentions. A

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Speaker 3: spokesperson the New York Times, we want our platforms to

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Speaker 3: be a place where people can access reliable information about

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Speaker 3: health services, advertisers can promote health services, and everyone can

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Speaker 3: discuss and debate public policies in this space. That is

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Speaker 3: why we allow posts and ads discussing and debating abortion.

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Speaker 3: But they're not doing that at all. Because the big

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Speaker 3: thing to know here is that Meta says one thing

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Speaker 3: in their policies and then does a completely different thing

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Speaker 3: when it comes to how they are actually moderating abortion content.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's so difficult right now to get

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Speaker 1: that good information, and there's so much misinformation and disinformation

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Speaker 1: out there, and to remove it is just really piling

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Speaker 1: onto a problem that really doesn't need any more piling

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Speaker 1: onto it is already really bad and people are already

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Speaker 1: very confused. This is not helping.

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Speaker 3: No, that's a really good context to set that. You know,

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Speaker 3: we're in a time where the Supreme Court struck down Row.

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Speaker 3: It is so much harder to access accurate information about

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Speaker 3: help so that people can make health decisions for themselves.

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Speaker 3: And when social media platforms like Facebook put their thumb

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Speaker 3: on the scales and make these kinds of moderation decisions

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Speaker 3: with no transparency that go against their own stated policy,

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Speaker 3: it just makes that climate so much harder. It makes

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Speaker 3: it harder for the people who are trying to do

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Speaker 3: this work, abortion providers and abortion advocates. It makes it

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Speaker 3: harder for people who need to make decisions about their

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Speaker 3: health and the people that support them. It makes it

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Speaker 3: so that people cannot access information to figure out what

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Speaker 3: they want to do with their own bodies and lives.

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Speaker 3: And these companies do that while saying, oh, we promote

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Speaker 3: the ability to use our platforms to get this kind

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Speaker 3: of information. I would prefer that they say we don't

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Speaker 3: like abortion, we don't want people using our platform to

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Speaker 3: talk about abortion, so we take that content off.

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Speaker 4: At least that would be honest.

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Speaker 3: But what they are doing is lying to people about

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Speaker 3: what they're actually doing while doing it. It just it's

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Speaker 3: it's so it's it's really adding insult to injury.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean, the true, honest answer probably is that

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Speaker 2: they are taking money or they know that they are

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Speaker 2: just buying time until the entirety of our rights and

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Speaker 2: reproductive rights may be completely dismantled in every way. And

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Speaker 2: that way they can already say, hey, leaders of this

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Speaker 2: fascist regime, we have done everything for you, so can

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Speaker 2: you keep supporting our platform and give us more money? Ugh?

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Speaker 3: I mean the way that you've got the Fox Watch

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Speaker 3: in the Henhouse here, the way that platforms are able

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Speaker 3: to cozy up to really, I mean, it's not even

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Speaker 3: really the.

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Speaker 4: Trump administration, just whoever is in power.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And then though that administration is also the administration that

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Speaker 3: is meant to be overseeing and regulating them. It's horrible

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Speaker 3: and so we really it's I'm glad that you brought

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Speaker 3: that up, because I think that helps us peel back

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Speaker 3: the layers of what exactly is going on here and

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Speaker 3: why it's so unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: And in understanding that that the whole confusion part is

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Speaker 2: probably the point.

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Speaker 4: I think that's true.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in looking at some of the ways that

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Speaker 3: Facebook says one thing and does another when it comes

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Speaker 3: to moderating abortion content.

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Speaker 4: I think that's exactly the point.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know, if we and we'll get into

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Speaker 3: this a little bit in a moment, but if we

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Speaker 3: create a confusing, inconsistent, not transparent climate, people will just

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Speaker 3: stop posting this information on our platforms.

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Speaker 4: And so we don't have to crack down on all

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 3: We don't have to have a policy that does not

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Speaker 3: allow for abortion content to be on our platform. It'll

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Speaker 3: there'll be a chilling effect and people will do it

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Speaker 3: on their own. They'll just stop posting on their own.

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Speaker 3: And I think, in my opinion, that's the why and

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Speaker 3: why this is happening. So Meta says that they really

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Speaker 3: want to focus on moderating posts that deal with illegal content.

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Speaker 3: Side note, they don't always do such a great job

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Speaker 3: of that either, but that's for another episode. So Meta's

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Speaker 3: Dangerous Organizations and Individuals ORDI policy was supposed to really

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Speaker 3: be like a narrow policy focusing on preventing the platform

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Speaker 3: from being used by terrorist groups or organized crime like

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Speaker 3: violent or criminal activity. But according to the Electronic Frontier Foundation,

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Speaker 3: over the years, we've really seen those rules be applied

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Speaker 3: in far broader and troubling ways with little transparency and

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Speaker 3: significant impact on marginalized voices. And this has essentially allowed

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Speaker 3: Meta to suppress factual content about abortion that does not

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Speaker 3: actually break any of the platform's rules. So the reason

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Speaker 3: wht me know this is because the Electronic Frontier Foundation

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Speaker 3: or EFF have really given us a snapshot into what's

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Speaker 3: happening and provided some very clear receipts with their stock

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Speaker 3: censoring abortion campaign effs as they collected stories from individuals,

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Speaker 3: healthcare clinics, advocacy groups, and more, and together they've revealed

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Speaker 3: one hundred examples of posts and resources being taken down,

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Speaker 3: ranging from guidance on medication abortion to links of resources

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Speaker 3: supporting individuals in states with abortion bands. What is important

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Speaker 3: to note is that the posts that they found that

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Speaker 3: weren't taken down or that resulted in sometimes a ban,

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Speaker 3: did not break any of meta's rules. Iff said, we

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Speaker 3: analyze these takedowns, deletions, and bands comparing the content to

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Speaker 3: what platform policies allow, particularly those of META, and found

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Speaker 3: that almost none of the submissions we received violated any

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Speaker 3: of the platform stated policies. Most of the censored posts

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Speaker 3: simply provided factual, educational information. So it really is a

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Speaker 3: system where you don't know, I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 3: could guess why this content is being taken down. There's

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Speaker 3: no consistency, there's no transparency, and Facebook just gets to

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Speaker 3: be like oopsie when it happens. Here's a great example

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Speaker 3: of a post that was removed from a healthcare policy

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Speaker 3: strategist named Lauren Carer discussing abortion pills availability by mail.

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Speaker 3: Her post reads, FYI, abortion pills are great to have around,

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Speaker 3: whether you anticipate needing them or not. Plan C Pills

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Speaker 3: is an amazing resource to help you find reliable sources

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Speaker 3: for abortion pills by mail, no matter where you live.

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Speaker 3: Once received, the pills should be kept in a cool,

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Speaker 3: dry place. The shelf life of maybe pristone is about

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Speaker 3: five years. The shelf life of missopriystal is about two years.

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Speaker 3: There is a missipriystal only regiment that is extremely safe, effective,

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Speaker 3: and very common globally. So that post is just here

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Speaker 3: is some factual information about these pills. However, Facebook removed

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Speaker 3: that post, and the explanation they gave Lauren was that

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Speaker 3: they don't allow people to buy, sell, or exchange drugs

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Speaker 3: that require a prescription from a doctor or a pharmacist.

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Speaker 3: But as you can tell, that post isn't about selling

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Speaker 3: or buying or trading medication. It is just fact based

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Speaker 3: information about that medication.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those things where you read it

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Speaker 1: and you're like, I don't see the I do see

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Speaker 1: the thing. The thing that you're saying is there. It's

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Speaker 1: just it's just information. Uh oh it makes me bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Eff points out that this post does not

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Speaker 3: break any of Meta's rules and should not be removed.

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Speaker 3: But you don't have to take their word for it

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Speaker 3: or my word for it, because Meta said the exact

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Speaker 3: same thing. Eff points out that Meta publicly insists that

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Speaker 3: posts like these should not be censored, and if February

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four letter to Amnesty International, metas Human Rights

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Speaker 3: policy director wrote, organic content i e. Non Paid content

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Speaker 3: educating users about medication abortion is allowed and does not

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Speaker 3: violate our community standards. Additionally, providing guidance on legal access

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Speaker 3: to pharmaceuticals is allowed. So what the hell he suck? Like,

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Speaker 3: why if it's allowed, why are you taking it down?

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Speaker 1: I'm so curious about because if the moderators are essentially

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Speaker 1: kind of removed. Then is this just a they have

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Speaker 1: like a keyword, like, how is this happening? Is there

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Speaker 1: a person or.

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Speaker 4: That is a great question.

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Speaker 3: If I had to guess, I would say, just knowing

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Speaker 3: what I know about content moderation, I would say this

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Speaker 3: is probably over use of AI moderation and then not

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Speaker 3: caring enough to correct that. That's if I had to say,

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Speaker 3: I would say, because honestly, content moderation is a job

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Speaker 3: for a not just a human, but a culturally competent human.

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Speaker 4: When you don't have culturally.

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Speaker 3: Competent humans making the moderation decisions, it's a problem, and

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Speaker 3: it's a problem that leads to the content of marginalized

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Speaker 3: people being suppressed much more on these platforms. Right, So,

440
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 3: if I had to guess, I would say, this is

441
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: somebody using an AI content moderation and then not.

442
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 4: Caring enough to correct that.

443
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 3: It is consistently taking down content that does not break

444
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 3: any of the platform's rules.

445
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: That's my guess.

446
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: Well, and that kind of relates to another thing I

447
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: know you're going to talk about, which is something Smith

448
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: and I have also talked about on some of our episodes.

449
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 1: Is shadow banding.

450
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: That's right, I mean shadow banning is one of those

451
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 3: issues that I find very interesting because who among us

452
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: has not posted something on social media had that post

453
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 3: not perform as well as you were expecting, and wonder

454
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 3: my shadow band. I have definitely thought this myself. If

455
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,479
Speaker 3: you've ever thought that, you are not alone. But it

456
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: does really happen. So shadow banning is when a social

457
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: media platform limits the visibility of someone's content without telling them.

458
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: And this is happening to people and organizations that make

459
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 3: content about sexual and reproductive health. And it's a real

460
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: problem because, as you were talking about before the Internet

461
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, like that is really where people

462
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: are going to find information about their health, especially in

463
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: a landscape where that information is more difficult to come by,

464
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: where it's criminalized and cracked down on. So people need

465
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 3: the Internet as a resource, and so if the people

466
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: and advocates and organizations who provide that information online are

467
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: shadow band it becomes that much harder to access what

468
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 3: is so often life saving information to help people make

469
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: health decisions. Earlier this year, the Center for Intimacy Justice

470
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 3: shared a report called the Digital Gag Suppression of Sexual

471
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 3: and Reproductive Health on Meta TikTok Amazon and Google, and

472
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: they found that of the one hundred and fifty nine nonprofits,

473
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 3: content creators, sex educators, and businesses that they surveyed, sixty

474
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: three percent had content removed on Meta, fifty five percent

475
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 3: had content removed on TikTok. And this suppression is happening

476
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: at the same time as platforms continue to allow and

477
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 3: elevate videos of violence and gore and extremist and hateful content.

478
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 3: And this pattern is troubling because it only becomes more

479
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: prevalent as folks turn more and more to social media

480
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 3: to find the information that they need to make decisions

481
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: about their health. And so I like that context because

482
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 3: we really do have a social media landscape that allows

483
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: for violent content, gory content, extremist or hateful content to

484
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: stay up while taking down accurate content about reproductive health

485
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 3: that they agree does not violate any of their policies.

486
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: It's pretty telling to you. You have some examples here,

487
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: and one of them is from a place near us

488
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: that I was like, oh dear, oh, dear, Emery. Yeah, yep,

489
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: But I mean it's also, as we're doing this research

490
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: on the CPC episode, I consider myself pretty you know,

491
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: pretty informed about abortion and all of it, but I

492
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: had to look up some stuff about like I'm not

493
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: sure is that legal there? I don't know, Like I

494
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: was feeling like I don't I don't know if I

495
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: can trust this information. And then you try to go

496
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: to a place where you're like, Okay, I know this place,

497
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: and then you find out it's taken down, it doesn't

498
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 1: have anything about it. Yeah, it's not a good climate.

499
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

500
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: And then you have Google allowing CPCs to stay, you know,

501
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: high ranked in their search. And then when you go

502
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: to CPC's they tell you all kinds of misinformation about

503
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: pregnancy and abortion. They are allowed to just essentially lie

504
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 3: to people people who are in vulnerable situations. And so

505
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: it's already a climate where it's hard to find trustworthy,

506
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 3: accurate information. And then the clearly not trustworthy, clearly not

507
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: accurate information is allowed to not just allowed to exist,

508
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 3: but they put their thumb on the scales in terms

509
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: of making it more accessible than information that is factual.

510
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 4: Yep.

511
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: So let us get into some of these examples, including

512
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: the one eras.

513
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 4: So let's talk about what happened at Emory University.

514
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: So rise at Emor University, the Center for Reproductive health

515
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: and research in the Southeast. They published a post saying

516
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 3: let's talk about Miffy pristone and its uses and the

517
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: importance of access. So they post this online. Two months later,

518
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: their account was suddenly suspended, flagged under the policy against

519
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: selling illegal drugs, which they were not selling or offering

520
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: illegal drugs. They were just giving fact based health information.

521
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 3: They tried to appeal, but that appeal was denied, leading

522
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: to their account being permanently deleted. Sarah Read, the director

523
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: of research and translation at Rise, told Eff as a team,

524
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 3: this was a hit to our morale. We pour countless

525
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 3: hours of person power, creativity, and passion into creating the

526
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: content we have on our page and having it vanished

527
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 3: virtually overnight took a toll on our team. And you know,

528
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 3: I really think, like think about how critical that information

529
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: is these days, and how critical social media is these days.

530
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: They are already doing sensitive work in an area where

531
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 3: that work is threatened, and so losing your social media

532
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: that you've put so much time into is like losing

533
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: a lifeline, both for the staff and for the community

534
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: that you're trying to do that work in. As Eff

535
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 3: puts it, for many organizational users like rise, they're social

536
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: media accounts or repository for resources and metrics that may

537
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: not be stored elsewhere. We spent a significant amount of

538
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: already constrained team capacity attempting to recover all of the

539
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: content we created for Instagram that was potentially going to

540
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: be permanently lost. We also spent a significant amount of

541
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: time and energy trying to understand what options we might

542
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: have available for Meta to appeal our case and recover

543
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 3: our account. Their support options are not easily accessible, and

544
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: the time it took to navigate this issue distracted from

545
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: our existing work. So I totally feel what they are

546
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: saying that when you are doing work that is that critical,

547
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, time sensitive, having to stop that work to

548
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: figure out, well, how are we going to appeal this

549
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 3: decision to Meta? Is all of are all of our

550
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 3: years and years of work on Instagram just lost forever?

551
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: That is a real problem.

552
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: And again, they weren't doing anything wrong, They're they're nothing

553
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: that they posted on their account was against metas policies.

554
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 3: It's just arbitrary, and so luckily they were able to

555
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: eventually get their account back, but only because they knew

556
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: someone who knew somebody who worked at Facebook personally, which

557
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: is really the only way to appeal when this kind

558
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: of thing happens. If your account is taken down for

559
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: no real reason by Facebook, I am sorry to say,

560
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: unless you have a friend who knows somebody who works

561
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 3: at Facebook, you're probably not going.

562
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 4: To be able to appeal again. Because a lot of

563
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 4: these decisions are AI right.

564
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: It can be very very hard to escalate to a

565
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: human and the only real way to do it is

566
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: to just know somebody there. And again, I just feel

567
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: that in these situations where Meta agrees these posts are

568
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: not in violation of their rules and that they admit

569
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: they made a mistake, it should not come down to

570
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: knowing somebody at Facebook to have these decisions be reversed

571
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: when Meta agrees their mistakes on their part.

572
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: Now I'm trying to think if I know someone at

573
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: Facebook I used to, I don't know if we're still there. Well.

574
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: Another issue with this is, as you said, if people

575
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: are worried that their content might be deleted or shadow banned,

576
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: or just they've seen this happen to other organizations or

577
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: something like that, then they might not post it anymore.

578
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I have to assume that is the point.

579
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: Eff rights. At the end of the day, clinics are

580
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: clinics are left afraid to post basic information, patients are

581
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: left confused or misinformed, and researchers lose access to these audiences.

582
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: But unless your issue catches the attention of a journalist

583
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: or you know, someone at Meta, you might never regain

584
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: access to your account. And so I really think that

585
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 3: that is the sort of so what here that Meta

586
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 3: is doing this to sort of not explicitly discourage organizations

587
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: and advocates and people from posting this kind of information

588
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: on their platform while saying the opp because it is

589
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 3: going to have a silencing effect. You know, nobody wants

590
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: to risk losing their entire platform, years and years and

591
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 3: years of content and research and resources they've collected.

592
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, no one's going to want to take that risk, right.

593
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: It's interesting that their policy with like the things that

594
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: we're going to actually moderate is about terrorism and gain

595
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: and child endangerment, which is kind of a dog whistle

596
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: for what the Republican platform has been to for jump

597
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: to all of this morality level of issues, and that

598
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: the fact that Zuckerberg is like, you know what, yeah,

599
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: we're going to adopt this too, but it's purely to

600
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: protect the people's We're just protecting the people's And again

601
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: it does seem like, see see we're doing like you,

602
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: we got your back. We also agree with this, this

603
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: is the only way or this is the best way

604
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 2: to control what information is being out there.

605
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 4: Yes, and if you actually I mean, this is a

606
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 4: whole other topic.

607
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: But when you look at the way, so they say, Okay,

608
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: we're only gonna be cracking down on content that creates

609
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: harm for kids, this dog whistle that they love to

610
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: pull up, and then when you look at the kind

611
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: of harm for kids that they either allow or advocate,

612
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: part of me is like, what content are you actually

613
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: taking down? I don't know if you all saw the

614
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: recent reporting. There was a very interesting report I think

615
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: from the Wall Street Journal where they have gotten their

616
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 3: hands on an internal policy document. So this is something

617
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 3: that somebody at Facebook said, this is our policy, totally

618
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 3: fine to have in writing no problem. That said that

619
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: Meta's chatbots were allowed to engage in sensual play with minors,

620
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: so kids, it was okay with Meta if their chatbots

621
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: engaged in like sensual I won't say sexual, but I

622
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: would say I've seen some of the content and it

623
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 3: is sort of spicy, but it's okay if they're if

624
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: they're bought to do that with children. And part of

625
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: me is like, I cannot believe you will put this

626
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 3: in writing. I cannot believe that someone at Facebook said, yeah,

627
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: this is a this is a document, I'll attach my

628
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 3: name to this. Well and behold. When the Wall Street

629
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: Journal asked about it, they were like, oh, no, we

630
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 3: have since walked that policy back. That's no longer our

631
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: official on the record. Our official on the record policy

632
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: is no longer that it's okay for our bots to

633
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 3: engage in sexy role play with kids.

634
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 4: We walked that back, Like, I bet you did walk that.

635
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 5: Back today as you asked this question.

636
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: I'm sure it happened right after the Wall Street Journal

637
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: called them and asked them about it.

638
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 4: I'm so sure that it was like an hour later

639
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 4: we walked at.

640
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 5: That we got this now, No, we would never right.

641
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and I mean you were here, Bridget. I

642
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: guess it was years ago and you were talking about

643
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: another kind of whistle brower account of Facebook knowing it

644
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 1: was harming young girls.

645
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Francis Hogan is is the whistleblower? Why we know that?

646
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah? So it's it is very galling for them to

647
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: be like, we want to protect the children, and then

648
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: you have these things that again directly show that clearly

649
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: you don't not.

650
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: Really and to be clear, that is knowingly harming kids.

651
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: So I just think it's very interesting that Facebook gets

652
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 3: to say, well, we're too busy focusing on content that

653
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 3: harms kids to take down to really care that much

654
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 3: about what's going on with our abortion content, and that's

655
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: that's the content we're really working on.

656
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 4: But really we're not doing that either.

657
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, Like they get they really.

658
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 3: It just infuriates me, it really does. And I think

659
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 3: the issue really is to understand is in twenty twenty five,

660
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: when you have a question, well I have a question,

661
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: the first place I go is.

662
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 4: The internet, right we all, that's I think that is

663
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 4: the reality.

664
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 3: For most of us, and the internet and social media

665
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 3: really has become this lifeline for folks trying to get

666
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: information about the world around us, including our sexual and

667
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: reproductive health. And if folks are not able to find

668
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 3: what they need in their own communities, which I'm sorry

669
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 3: to say is becoming more and more of the reality

670
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: these days, they are going to go online to turn

671
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: to social media to fill those gaps. That access really

672
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: matters most for folks whose care is being cut off,

673
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 3: like abortion seekers or trans or queer youth living in

674
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: states where healthcare is under attack. And so if you

675
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: have these social media platforms kind of adding to a

676
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: landscape where that information is difficult to access, even if

677
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: that information is not against their rules, it's just making

678
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: it that much more difficult.

679
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 4: And these decisions really do matter.

680
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 3: I mean they some of them are life or death,

681
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 3: and they really have real world impact on people's lives.

682
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And unfortunately this is not this is part of

683
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: kind of a larger issue, kind of a larger attack,

684
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: gendered attack. Correct.

685
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 3: Yes, so this is a thing I find so interesting

686
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 3: and I actually should come back and do another episode

687
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: on it.

688
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: In the middle of some research on it right now.

689
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: But the Center for Intimacy Justice, whose report I mentioned earlier,

690
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 3: they have another report that really shows how platforms routinely

691
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 3: suppress sexual health content for women and trans folks, while

692
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 3: leaving content aimed at supporting the sexual health of CIS

693
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 3: men largely untouched. Right, So, I know lots of people

694
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: who run businesses that are focused on like the sexual

695
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 3: health of people who are not CIS men. Right, So

696
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: if you have pelvic pain, if you need sex toys,

697
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 3: like all these different things that are aimed at people

698
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: who are not cisgender men. I have lots of friends

699
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 3: who run businesses like that. They are essentially not able

700
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: to do any kind of advertising on Facebook because Facebook

701
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 3: does not allow it. However, Facebook certainly allows information about

702
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 3: the sexual wellness of cisgender men. So we really have

703
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 3: a climate where, let's mostly men who run these platforms

704
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: are able to determine whose sexual health is important and

705
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 3: who is not, Whose healthcare is healthcare, and whose is

706
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: like something perverted that needs to be suppressed and isn't

707
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: allowed on their platform.

708
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

709
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: Now thinking about it, as I've been looking at Instagram,

710
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 2: the amount of GLP one ads that I've been getting,

711
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 2: which is interesting because I thought that was medication that

712
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 2: you had to get their doctor, is overwhelming. But also

713
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: on the vice versa of that is MELS you know,

714
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: health sex health bs. Those are the two ads that

715
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: I get. Definitely nothing about women in birth control rarely

716
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: there's a few that but as of late I think zero.

717
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: But the amount of GLP one ads, I'm like, WHOA,

718
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 2: what is happening Instagram.

719
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 5: I thought we weren't allowing this.

720
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean the amount of ads I get, specifically

721
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 3: for the erectile dysfunction medication blue Choo, and the ads

722
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 3: are do you ever seen these ads online?

723
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 4: The ads are clearly targeted.

724
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 3: At women, so it's it's a cute woman being like, ladies,

725
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 3: get your man to get blue shoe. Blue shoe is

726
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,479
Speaker 3: gonna rock your world. Get your man on blue shoe.

727
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 3: And that's a medication, that is that is an erectail

728
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: dysfunction prescription medication. But these platforms have just decided, Oh no,

729
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: that's okay.

730
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 4: That's that.

731
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 3: You can you can show that all day long, no problem,

732
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 3: you can boost it, you can put money behind it.

733
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 2: Totally fine again Like and then the other part being

734
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: the weight loss medication, which slowly a lot more information

735
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: comes back like, oh there's side effis this might not

736
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 2: be as good as you think.

737
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: By the way, Oh yes, I'll just say yes.

738
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 5: I'll just say yes.

739
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 2: Well that's like as as of late, and we know

740
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 2: this was coming. We knew this was coming because they've

741
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: also got variations that are not FDA approved, which I

742
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: guess means very little at this point in time. But

743
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 2: again that this is the rampant amount of ads like

744
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: every two like scrolls on instcaret that pops up, and

745
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: on Facebook too, which is I'm like, I don't even

746
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: go to Facebook. I just need to know people's birthdays.

747
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: That's all I need, That's all I really want. But again,

748
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: this seems to be like I thought once, if that

749
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: was your policy from Jump, then how are these as

750
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 2: paying you, I know, paying you millions?

751
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 5: How are these okay?

752
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, their policy is totally inconsistent, seemingly arbitrary, and seemingly

753
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: biased against any kind of marginal identity. Like that's just

754
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: what's going on. They don't have any transparency. They say

755
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 3: one thing and do another. Uh, and that just is

756
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 3: the is the norm for them, and it's I really

757
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 3: do think that we should be talking about how you know, again,

758
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: let's be honest, we're talking about mostly men, and mostly

759
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 3: not just men, like a specific kind of man, white moneyed,

760
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 3: coastal all of that. How we have given them so

761
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 3: much power to define what knowledge is acceptable, whose voices

762
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: are amplified, whose bodies are are left a risk, and

763
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 3: when platforms decide what can and can't be shared, they

764
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: are making public health decisions with global consequences in ways

765
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 3: that are often contrary to public health, and then also

766
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 3: reinforce systemic and equalities. And so I just think, you know,

767
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 3: this is not just we're not just talking about like

768
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: vague policy language. I know that I've spent a lot

769
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 3: of time talking about that because it annoys me. But

770
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: it's really about them deciding who gets to speak, who

771
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: gets seen, who gets access to the information that they

772
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 3: need to make decisions about their own health and bodies.

773
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 3: When Meta and these platforms silence accurate, essential sexual and

774
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 3: reproductive health information, but not just enforcing inconsistent body rules.

775
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: I mean they are, but they're not just doing that.

776
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: They are also shaping people's lives and really deciding whose

777
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: health matters and whose doesn't. And in a world where

778
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 3: we know the internet has really become this lifeline, that

779
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 3: is not just annoying, although I am annoid, it is

780
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: dangerous because free speech shouldn't come with a disclaimer that

781
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 3: your bodies is just optional and up to the whims

782
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 3: of Mark Zuckerberg.

783
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: No, I don't want to live in that world.

784
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 3: No, No, I mean I think about this all the time,

785
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 3: the ways that these that these individuals, like a handful

786
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 3: of individual mostly white guys, get to define what our

787
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 3: worlds look like in these very concrete ways.

788
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 4: And I've never met Mark Zuckerberg.

789
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 3: Although I have met Cheryl Sandberg, but I've never met

790
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg. I don't want Mark Zuckerberg in charge of

791
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: deciding anything for my life. I don't think Mark Zuckerberg

792
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 3: and I have any common idea about what it means

793
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 3: to have a good, fulfilled life.

794
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 4: I don't want him designing what my future looks like.

795
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: I think that's very wise.

796
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 2: I mean that one movie made him look really pretty

797
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: much a dick.

798
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: So, oh my god, you mean The Social Network, one

799
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: of my favorite movies.

800
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

801
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: I don't want to I don't want to spoil it,

802
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: but the ending of that movie is my version of

803
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 3: Citizen Kane.

804
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 4: Have you both have seen it? Yeah, okay, you've not

805
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 4: seen it.

806
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: I've always seen clips because I'm like, I don't want

807
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: even want to know, but he seem.

808
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 4: Like a dick.

809
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 3: Go home and watch it tonight. I know your birthday

810
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 3: is coming up. My birthday is a fun birthday watch.

811
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm such a nerd. I say it's a

812
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 3: fun watch, but if you're looking for a movie to

813
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 3: watch on your birthday, that might be that might be

814
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 3: the one.

815
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: It's a good, it's a solid like, oh yeah, you're

816
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: just a sad man ending.

817
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 4: Yes, you know what I'm talking about.

818
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: You kiss Citizen Kane. The sled moment at the end

819
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: of that movie haunts me, and I think if you haven't,

820
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: I think if you've seen it, it gives context for

821
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: some of the stuff we've talked about when it comes

822
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 3: to birth today.

823
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: All right.

824
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 5: Without even seeing it, I was like, all right.

825
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: Also love it. It's such a dark soundtrack.

826
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 4: Who is it yet?

827
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 3: Nobody does a haunting soundtrack like Trent Resnor Gone Girl

828
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 3: soundtrack soundtrack to Challengers, also Trent Resnor, And that's the

829
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: soundtrack I put on when I'm writing if you need

830
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 3: to focus and just like put on some headphones and

831
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 3: be like we are writing, that is your soundtrack. Resnor

832
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 3: can write a dark movie soundtrack like nobody's business.

833
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 4: And I love that.

834
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: It was in this movie about this college kid trying

835
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: to get a girl to like oh lord, yes, okay,

836
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: well we'll revisit that later. We'll do uh maybe you know,

837
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 1: we had a fun time trash talking some Hugh Heffner

838
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: that one time we'll come back with a fun thing

839
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: for you, Bridget and you can side because you always

840
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: bring us these heavy topics of your choosing. But before then,

841
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Where can the

842
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: good listeners find you?

843
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: You can find me on my podcast, there are our

844
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 3: goals on the internet. You can find me on Instagram.

845
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 3: I know it's owned by Max Zarckerberg. I don't make

846
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 3: it either at Bridget Bryan DC, TikTok at Bridge and

847
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 3: Bran DC, and on YouTube.

848
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 4: And there are no girls on the internet.

849
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: Yes, go check all of that out if you have

850
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: it already, listeners, if you would like to contact us,

851
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Hello Stuff, I

852
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: never told you. You can find us on Blue skyt

853
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: most of podcast or Instagram and TikTok at Stuff one

854
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: never told you. We're also on YouTube. We have new

855
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: merchandise at Cotton Bureau, and we have a book you

856
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always to

857
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: her A Suproduces, Christina Executive Producing, my under contributor Joey,

858
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Never

859
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: told you. Quot should by Heart Radio for more podcasts

860
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio. You can check out the heart

861
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: Radio app, a podcast or where you listen to your

862
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: favorite shows.