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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: They did not own a computer in my first eighteen

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Speaker 1: years of my life. Within the first twenty five minutes

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Speaker 1: of me hearing Cuckoo Cooch, within twenty five minutes of

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Speaker 1: being on a O l in, I just knew that

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Speaker 1: this thing that I was sitting in front of was

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Speaker 1: going to change the world. Hi, am Bob Pittman. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to this episode of Math and Magic. Stories from the

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Speaker 1: Frontiers and Marketing. Today. We have someone who knows a

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Speaker 1: lot about those frontiers. He lives on the leading edge.

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Speaker 1: He is not afraid of risk, and he breaks through

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Speaker 1: again and again. Best Selling author, entrepreneurs, ceo, marketer, thinker, speaker, podcaster,

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Speaker 1: and video star Gary Vayner Chuck. Gary was born in

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Speaker 1: the Soviet Union and immigrated to the U S when

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Speaker 1: he was young and watched his family build success in

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Speaker 1: a new country. He went from Queens to New Jersey

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Speaker 1: and made his mark as a successful child entrepreneur selling

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Speaker 1: flowers back to his neighbor lemonade stands, baseball cards, shoveling snow,

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Speaker 1: and working at his dad's liquor and wine store. Throughout

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Speaker 1: college and after college, he helped transform the family business

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Speaker 1: from a two million dollar a year revenue business to

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Speaker 1: a sixty million dollar a year revenue business, in the

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Speaker 1: process developing his online marketing Chops, which led to his

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Speaker 1: current empire anchored by Vainer Media. He's the quickest guy

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Speaker 1: on his feet and always has valuable insights, and he's

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Speaker 1: a good guy. Gary, Welcome. I really appreciate that, Bob Happy.

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Speaker 1: It's really great to be with you before we dig

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Speaker 1: into the meet, Gary, I want to do you in

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Speaker 1: sixty seconds. You ready to go early Riser or night owl,

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Speaker 1: l New York or New Jersey, New York Mets or Yankees,

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Speaker 1: Android or iPhone, call or text, text, coffee or tea coffee,

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Speaker 1: baseball or basketball, basketball, red wine or white wine, white wine,

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Speaker 1: chocolate or vanilla, vanilla, Cats or Dogs, Cats, g I

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Speaker 1: Joe or baseball cards, baseball cards. It's about to get

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Speaker 1: a little harder, smartest person you know, My mom. Childhood

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Speaker 1: a hero A mix between Macho Man, Randy Savage, Don

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Speaker 1: Mattingley and Patrick Ewing. Favorite podcast I'm gonna say Tim

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Speaker 1: Ferris is because it was the one that emerged in

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Speaker 1: that early era as a real cultural impact and started

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Speaker 1: creating the possibilities of how big the genre could be.

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Speaker 1: For me first job, the only job I really had

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Speaker 1: was working my dad's liquor store. But I always think

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Speaker 1: of my first job is selling lemonade, even though I

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Speaker 1: was self employed. Favorite food English peas secret talent. I

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Speaker 1: can draw really well and nobody knows that last one.

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Speaker 1: What's your guilty pleasure? Candy bars? Specifically, what the McCall

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Speaker 1: it's though? Kit cats and butter fingers and stickers and

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Speaker 1: candy bars? For sure. Let's get going, Let's get into

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Speaker 1: the media things. You have had one of the most

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Speaker 1: successful startups and the ad agency business and a world

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Speaker 1: in which it's hard. How did you manage to break through?

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you for saying that, because it

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Speaker 1: means a lot coming from you. And I think I

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Speaker 1: broke through because I'm a good businessman. My thesis of

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Speaker 1: consumer behavior was right, and I knew nothing about Madison Avenue.

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Speaker 1: And I think those are three incredibly intriguing ingredients, and

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Speaker 1: if I'm being self assessing, I'll bring them down quickly

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Speaker 1: with the hope that somebody can use it as courage

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Speaker 1: to jump into doing something that they feel like they

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Speaker 1: want to do, and they believe that they're capable of doing,

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Speaker 1: but maybe on paper it doesn't look like it. I

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Speaker 1: was a good operator, as you referenced earlier. You know,

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Speaker 1: I built my dad's business. It was about a three

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Speaker 1: point eight million dollar year business and what the sixty

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Speaker 1: million about seven or eight years. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: a retailer. I thought I was a businessman. But when

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Speaker 1: I really started self assess, I realized that was extremely

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Speaker 1: good at marketing. And I was very strong and operating

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Speaker 1: and c e owing, but this talent of just genuinely

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Speaker 1: understanding where the attention is going and how culture works.

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Speaker 1: And I thought starting an agency would be a way

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Speaker 1: to get paid to learn why the Fortune five hundreds

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Speaker 1: were not doing what I saw was brewing on Netflix, Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Amazon and YouTube. So a my timing was great. I

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Speaker 1: started a social media agency right as people were starting

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Speaker 1: to consider we needed this behavior, and they did not

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Speaker 1: believe the creative agencies that they were working with understood it,

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Speaker 1: nor did the Grays or b B d os even

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Speaker 1: care about it. It was an afterthought. And to be

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Speaker 1: very frank, Bob, and you know this, for the biggest

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Speaker 1: creative agencies in the world today, the great ones, it's

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Speaker 1: still an afterthought, which is perplexing to me, but understandable

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Speaker 1: knowing the margins and the ecosystem. So a my timing

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Speaker 1: was good be I'm a good businessman. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times artists or people that see things can't operate. So

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Speaker 1: I was able to stay afloat those first three years

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Speaker 1: when it was difficult to get clients, and then see

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Speaker 1: the bet ended up being ridiculously right, no different than

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Speaker 1: the incredible things that have happened in your career. If

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Speaker 1: you're good enough to get by in the first four

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Speaker 1: thirty six months of innovation and stay alive, if you

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Speaker 1: end up being right, you're in a position to catch

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Speaker 1: all the opportunity. And then I evolved, you know, we

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Speaker 1: evolved from just doing community management on social too, the intermedia.

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Speaker 1: New York did the most Super Bowl spots un last year.

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl is a creative agency. We have three spots,

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Speaker 1: so we've evolved into a full service creative and media.

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Speaker 1: And I've continued to innovate, whether it's podcasting or influencing

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Speaker 1: influencers or being best in class on TikTok. Communications changing,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure if we look in the history of

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Speaker 1: the people that want television we were transitioning from radio

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Speaker 1: or which agencies razor Fish A, k q A won

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Speaker 1: the Internet when we were transitioning into that world. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is a historic story of Madison Avenue, who's the

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Speaker 1: man or woman that comes along that understands the next

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Speaker 1: communication change best and she and he capable of building

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Speaker 1: an organization around it. And I think I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get a lot of credit one day historically about being

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Speaker 1: that person for this social media O T T kind

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Speaker 1: of like big shift in the maturity of the Internet

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Speaker 1: and how it affected advertising. It's interesting you say that

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Speaker 1: because A Mathew Magic We've talked some about those moments

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Speaker 1: in time, and I was there for some of them.

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Speaker 1: When the cable networks became a viable advertising medium in

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Speaker 1: the late nineteen eighties, and I was there when the

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Speaker 1: Internet sort of broke through. And when I went to

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Speaker 1: A O L in nine six, I think we had

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Speaker 1: a couple of million dollars of advertising. We left, we

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Speaker 1: had two or three billion of advertising. So it all

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Speaker 1: happened in the nineties. And you're right, the established players

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Speaker 1: don't really jump on the new very quickly, and creates

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Speaker 1: a huge opportunity. And you've been that so let's talk

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Speaker 1: a second about that. At the heart of that is

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Speaker 1: really having an open mind and also thinking about creativity

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Speaker 1: in a very new way. When you look at creativity,

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Speaker 1: which clearly you did when you you built this, what

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Speaker 1: do most people get wrong about creativity? I think that

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Speaker 1: most people get wrong in giving freedom to actually be creative. Ultimately,

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Speaker 1: creativity is best when it's free and allows the end

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Speaker 1: consumer to judge and everything that happens in between it

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Speaker 1: debating politics, subjective opinions treated as truth reporting, and other

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Speaker 1: math trying to be deployed against it to be a

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Speaker 1: benchmarking system. Creativity is it's a process of finding right,

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Speaker 1: far more than a process of being right. And I

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Speaker 1: think modern advertising rise to be right and pushed down.

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Speaker 1: A friend of mine hit me up the other day

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Speaker 1: and let's listening to Jerry Seinfeld talk about how he

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Speaker 1: creates this set. And he's like, oh my god, Gary,

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Speaker 1: he does your volume model. He goes around and does

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Speaker 1: small clubs, testing material, gets a feel of what humans

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Speaker 1: react to. Bubbles up, bubbles up, bubbles up. That's been

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Speaker 1: my entire career in an internet fast world. Perfection is

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Speaker 1: the enemy. Subjective perfection is the cancer. When you think

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Speaker 1: about the new forms Facebook, TikTok, etcetera. How do you

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Speaker 1: think about risk in that world and how do you

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Speaker 1: think they're different from the risk and advertising prior. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a stunning amount of risk with coming up

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Speaker 1: with a brief, having a strategist come up with a strategy,

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Speaker 1: handing it to a creative team internally them coming up

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Speaker 1: with subjective ideas, then pitching it to a CMO or

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Speaker 1: a brand manager, and making a six to seven figure

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Speaker 1: creative output, and then having no clean feedback loop of

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Speaker 1: any say whatsoever, and then all of your digital assets

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Speaker 1: usually become matching luggage to this creative piece that you've made.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the highest risk, most ludicrous process in world.

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Speaker 1: When I think about social and digital and even O

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Speaker 1: T T commercials that give you so much more data,

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Speaker 1: I think about driving down the cost of creative to

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Speaker 1: allow you to have far more opportunities to be much

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Speaker 1: more relevant to many different constituents instead of the vanilla

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Speaker 1: thirty second video. There is nothing more risky on earth

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Speaker 1: today than being a fortune five thousand company that spends

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Speaker 1: money on making a commercial and putting it out into

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Speaker 1: the world. In your world, how do you put that

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Speaker 1: commercial out and cut all that out of the process,

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Speaker 1: so you go much more from idea to consumer. The

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Speaker 1: way we mitigate it is if you're let's just use

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Speaker 1: kick Cats, you don't work with them. It's a candy company.

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Speaker 1: We referenced it earlier. I believe what kit Cats needs

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Speaker 1: to do is create a conversation around addressable customer what

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Speaker 1: I call cohorts. They need to create ten to fifteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty of them, because as you can imagine, Bob,

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Speaker 1: you and I with a couple of gray hairs, if

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Speaker 1: we're still kind of fancying a little kickcap are once

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Speaker 1: in a while, they're gonna need to talk to us

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Speaker 1: in a very different manner than they're trying to achieve

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Speaker 1: with an eighteen year old Latino woman on the West

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Speaker 1: coast right. And what brands and companies are not doing

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Speaker 1: well is contextualizing in multiple places to create a bigger brand. Instead,

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Speaker 1: what they do is get very narrow. The thought that

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Speaker 1: kit cat is going to spend eighty percent of its

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Speaker 1: money on its t v C and then digital banners

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Speaker 1: that support that campaign and it's brand positioning, to me

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Speaker 1: is nuts because first of all, the distribution most people

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Speaker 1: are not consuming actually with any of the tension and

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Speaker 1: intent a t v C. And that it goes to

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Speaker 1: be equally true, if not slightly more for banner ads

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Speaker 1: on the Internet. To me, the way you do it

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Speaker 1: is you take advantage of social media in its current form,

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Speaker 1: which is a media and creative place. You create the

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Speaker 1: fifteen cohorts fifty five year old males on the East

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Speaker 1: Coast from a nostalgic place, baseball enthusiasts, Latino males in

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Speaker 1: Texas blackmails into surfing in California. What these cohorts allow

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Speaker 1: you to do is have much more teeth around the

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Speaker 1: creative and then you run them in a social media

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Speaker 1: environment because the ads run in the feed and are

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Speaker 1: more native and feel less disruptive and feel more in

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Speaker 1: place of what you're consuming in your feed. And if

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Speaker 1: you know you're targeting the black mail surfing enthusiasts in California,

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Speaker 1: you can imagine what that Instagram post for kit Cat

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Speaker 1: looks like. That's going to give people relevance and consideration.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna consider kit Cats because they're gonna see themselves

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Speaker 1: in that video picture. If you're a brand as big

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Speaker 1: as kit Cat, it's about making fifty pieces of creative

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Speaker 1: a week, three to four per cohort and looking at

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Speaker 1: the quantum quality feedback against depletion reports at seven eleven.

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Speaker 1: And you know bulk sales on box, Dot M or

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Speaker 1: Amazon or Walmart. So use business feedback loops, look at

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Speaker 1: the qualitative feedback of the comments. Use the post creative

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Speaker 1: strategist as I call it, to read all those comments

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Speaker 1: to inform better content the next week. Everything I just

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Speaker 1: said is the polar opposite of what's being done in

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Speaker 1: measurability and distribution and where the money is being spent.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just much more common sense, practical business oriented.

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Speaker 1: This is not how the big six holding companies navigate

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Speaker 1: or the Fortune five hundred biggest brands navigate. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to add to your story Gary, you know we're in

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Speaker 1: the business. At my heart, we happen to have eight

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Speaker 1: d and fifty radio stations a hundred and fifty markets.

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Speaker 1: It's always surprised me that advertisers think we can have

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Speaker 1: one voice, one sound, that there's somehow this national code

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Speaker 1: words that people respond to, as opposed to understanding that

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Speaker 1: actually every city, every region. In addition to the culture,

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Speaker 1: the diversity of people ideas and culture even within those cities.

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Speaker 1: And of course the biggest problem for so many years

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Speaker 1: was the cost of producing advertising. But as you point

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Speaker 1: out today, with the costs going down, the rules probably

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Speaker 1: can change because I think everyone recognizes they should. We

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Speaker 1: did something years and years ago with American Express Small

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Speaker 1: Business Saturday. We did three hundred and fifty different pieces

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Speaker 1: of creative. So we found the small business person in

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Speaker 1: every city, and they talked in their language, with their accent,

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Speaker 1: with the slang they used for their city. What you

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Speaker 1: just talked about with context at scale. Scale is going

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Speaker 1: to come now from five thousand jelly beans instead of

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Speaker 1: one super jelly bean, and most brands and definitely every

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Speaker 1: agency is not built for that. And I have empathy

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Speaker 1: for the agencies. They're publicly traded companies and they need

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Speaker 1: to drive margin, and they are completely built upside down

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Speaker 1: to be able to deliver on the amount of creative

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Speaker 1: needed to be a successful brand. They have all their

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Speaker 1: most expensive people at the top and they build against that,

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Speaker 1: and they need to have all their people at the

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Speaker 1: bottom and make against that. That is a transformation that

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Speaker 1: is going to be very fascinating to watch The biggest

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Speaker 1: advertising firms in the world go through well, you know,

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Speaker 1: the content companies went through this many many years ago.

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Speaker 1: When we started MTV in the early eighties. TV before

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Speaker 1: that always tried to make every show look like it

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Speaker 1: was in Middle America. So there's sort of a quote

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Speaker 1: unquote typical American family, typical American fashion. If you go

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Speaker 1: back and look in the early eighties, fashion just blew

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Speaker 1: up because suddenly the mass the people around the country

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Speaker 1: saw something other than a TV programmers idea of what

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Speaker 1: the typical American family should look like. And I think

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Speaker 1: what you're arguing for is that's accelerating and accelerating and

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Speaker 1: advertising even more. What you were part of was the

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Speaker 1: revolution of going from thirteen to thirty six channels, right,

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Speaker 1: sounded like a lot back then. I remember there was

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Speaker 1: thirty six channels exactly on my first cable package. That

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Speaker 1: gave the freedom to show more. So many more hours

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Speaker 1: had been added to the ecosystem and led to the

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Speaker 1: iconic executions of the eighties of MTV, ESPN and CNN

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Speaker 1: and some others. Of course, on demand has made that

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Speaker 1: even more possible. I don't have to join in progress

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Speaker 1: CNN schedule. I can get exactly what I want when

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Speaker 1: I want it. But it was certainly the first step

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Speaker 1: along that way, and it all revolves around one thing

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Speaker 1: with consumers, convenience. They want control. They want what they

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Speaker 1: want when they want it. If you can say people time,

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Speaker 1: they'll pay you money for it. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: with more math and magic after this quick break. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to math and Magic and now more for my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary, let's go back in time some.

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Speaker 1: I want to get a little context on you. You

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Speaker 1: were born in Belarus and came to the US when

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Speaker 1: you were four. How has that immigrant experience helped you succeed?

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Speaker 1: I think accountability and gratitude are the two foundational blocks

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Speaker 1: that make me who I am, and they came directly

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Speaker 1: because of the circumstances of my life. I came over

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Speaker 1: when I was three and a half. We lived in

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Speaker 1: the studio apartment in Queens with eight family members. My mom,

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Speaker 1: by nature, is frugal. I just grew up in an

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Speaker 1: environment where materialistic things had no value. It shaped me.

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Speaker 1: If I wanted things, I had to get my own money.

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Speaker 1: I grew up as a shmata son of a merchant.

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Speaker 1: I want Nintendo everybody has it. Well, my mom looks

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Speaker 1: at me and says, get it. This is what led

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Speaker 1: me to lemonade shoveling snows. My work ethic is extraordinary

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Speaker 1: because I like it, but I was also trained to

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Speaker 1: do it. I think there's something that comes along with

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Speaker 1: lack of entitlement and lack of spoilage. I really like

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Speaker 1: accountability because when you get to the top, whether it's

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Speaker 1: a three person team or you build a huge business

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Speaker 1: or life or career, accountability is an incredible gateway to happiness.

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Speaker 1: I'm very grateful for everything I have, Bob every day.

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Speaker 1: Being an immigrant has an incredible starting point to allow

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Speaker 1: you to have a lot of privileges that being born

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Speaker 1: on third base does not necessarily always give you the

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Speaker 1: same advantages. Not that I haven't seen people born on

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Speaker 1: third base realized self awareness and gratitude, but it's just

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Speaker 1: a lot easier when you come from dirt to appreciate caviare.

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Speaker 1: This provides a lot of context on who you are. Gary.

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Speaker 1: You talk a lot about the New York Jets. They

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Speaker 1: seem to play a pivotal role in your americanization. How

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Speaker 1: did that happen and why I was picked on as

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Speaker 1: a kid for not speaking the language. And then I

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Speaker 1: moved to Edison. My friends there they took me in.

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Speaker 1: They didn't pick on me or make fun of me

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Speaker 1: for my accent or at that point I was just

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Speaker 1: starting to really get the English language down. They took

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Speaker 1: me in and their great passion was football and the

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Speaker 1: New York Jets, and I started watching in that a

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Speaker 1: two season. They go on to the a f C

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Speaker 1: championship game, the game each order Super Bowl. It was

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun. It was a common bond. My

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Speaker 1: friends all had Jets jerseys, and I asked my mom

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Speaker 1: for once. She said no, And then at night, when

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Speaker 1: I was sleeping, she knitted me a Jet sweater that

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Speaker 1: looked like a jersey out of yarn. It was my

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Speaker 1: prize possession. I wore it almost every day. I have

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Speaker 1: it in a safety deposit box and a fireproof setting

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Speaker 1: right now because it's the most important thing to me

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Speaker 1: in my life. And I haven't stopped watching. I've watched

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Speaker 1: every play, every snap of every game since then. In

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Speaker 1: third grade or fourth grade, was the first time I

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Speaker 1: said I was going to buy the New York Jets,

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Speaker 1: and I just kept saying it, and then it just

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Speaker 1: kind of became this beautiful fairy tale. My great enjoyment

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Speaker 1: is the chase, the thrill of the hunt to see

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Speaker 1: if I'm capable of achieving a child who wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to afford owning a jet jersey, buying the New York

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Speaker 1: Jets and hanging that sweater as a nod to my hero,

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Speaker 1: my mom and my dad. America's got plenty of shortcomings,

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Speaker 1: as does everything, but what a country like I couldn't

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Speaker 1: afford jets jersey. I am now the CEO, chairman and

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Speaker 1: owner of the New York Jets. The attempt to try

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Speaker 1: to buy the New York Jets is my great love.

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Speaker 1: It makes a hell of a story too. Let's make

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Speaker 1: the transition to you as the business person you are today.

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Speaker 1: You said that thanks to some college dorm mates, you

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Speaker 1: discovered the Internet, which led you to building a website

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Speaker 1: for your dad's store, And at that point there were

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Speaker 1: very few liquor stores nationwide websites. What did you see

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Speaker 1: that made you think your dad's store needed one? At

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Speaker 1: that point, I did not own a computer in my

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Speaker 1: first eighteen years of my life. I just knew Bob

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Speaker 1: within the first twenty five minutes of me hearing COUCKU couch.

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Speaker 1: Within twenty five minutes of being on a O l in,

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Speaker 1: I just knew that this thing that I was sitting

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Speaker 1: in front of was going to change the world. My

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Speaker 1: dad should sell line on this thing, and that became

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Speaker 1: the starting point of me transforming my dad's life and business.

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Speaker 1: When you were going through this process, you had quite

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Speaker 1: a success with your dad's store. Did you think it

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Speaker 1: the whole time I'm in the internet marketing business, or

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Speaker 1: did you think you were actually in the wine spirits business.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was in the wine spirits business all

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Speaker 1: the way up until two thousand and five. I thought

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Speaker 1: it was a retailer businessman. I had one on email marketing.

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Speaker 1: I was early open rates in the mid to late nineties.

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Speaker 1: I was on Google Adwards day one, killing it on that.

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Speaker 1: I advertised on the early iteration of blogs in two

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Speaker 1: thousand three, doing quite well with banner click throughs. But

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Speaker 1: it was YouTube coming out. Me starting a YouTube show,

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Speaker 1: wine Library TV in two thousand six. Less than a

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Speaker 1: year after it came out, and within the first year

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Speaker 1: that I was on YouTube, Google bought YouTube for one

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Speaker 1: point seven billion dollars. That one point seven billion for

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Speaker 1: something that was around for a year, like YouTube. You

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Speaker 1: remember seeing that number and thing in geez right. I

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Speaker 1: mean it seemed crazy at the time. Today it seems

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Speaker 1: like such a deal and such a steal. When Facebook

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Speaker 1: but Instagram. I went on Piers Morgan on CNN and

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Speaker 1: said they stole it for a billion dollars. It was

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Speaker 1: five fifty years old, and I think that's gonna end

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Speaker 1: up going down as one of the great full time

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Speaker 1: M and A deals ever. And it's because of what

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Speaker 1: I learned with YouTube. It's pattern recognition. The podcast shift

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Speaker 1: with my heart like, it's just pattern recognition, being agnostic

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Speaker 1: and unemotional, just being religious about consumer attention. I think

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Speaker 1: one of the problems you see when something's new is

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Speaker 1: not seeing how big it actually can be. When Viacom

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Speaker 1: bought MTV Networks, we tried to buy it in a

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Speaker 1: management buyout. Viacom got it. I've said I'd go along

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Speaker 1: with it, signed a new five year deal, and I

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Speaker 1: did a five year plan for him. I didn't stay

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Speaker 1: the five years. About five years later, I'm doing something else.

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Speaker 1: I get an envelope and I opened it up and

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Speaker 1: it's from Jerry Lebourne, who was running Nickelodeon, and she

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Speaker 1: circled the last year of the five year plan and

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Speaker 1: the note said, what you didn't believe? I have put

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Speaker 1: down numbers that five years out. The Viacom guys thought

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Speaker 1: I was crazy. Five years later it was too small.

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Speaker 1: And that was the first time it really hit me.

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Speaker 1: And of course, whether it was a oh well or

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Speaker 1: as you say, Facebook, TikTok, etcetera, our biggest mistake usually

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Speaker 1: is we underestimate how big it's going to be. You

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Speaker 1: were very smart, you made some very early investments. I

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Speaker 1: think you put your entire savings in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: six into a few companies Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler. Do you

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Speaker 1: think you're seeing size that others don't see? I know

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Speaker 1: that Oculus and Google Home or Alexa or whoever wins

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Speaker 1: the battle of VR or in home AI voice devices

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Speaker 1: that dominate consumer behavior. Oh my god. In fifteen years,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be sixty, a young man with unlimited

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Speaker 1: fire and ambition, and I'm going to have the last

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Speaker 1: forty years of pattern recognition. And when I bet my

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Speaker 1: farm like I did in two thousands six on social well,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna have more money, more impact, more leverage. This

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Speaker 1: is why I built van Ormedia and vain X. My

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Speaker 1: entire agency and publishing ecosystem is completely predicated for me

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Speaker 1: to own it in perpetuity and deployed against my other

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Speaker 1: business buying behavior. So I've been playing very long. I'm

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Speaker 1: a high energy guy that you know seems hyper and

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Speaker 1: over the top for people, But my business behaviors have

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Speaker 1: been extremely turtle esque, very calculated and slow. And I'm plotting,

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Speaker 1: and I'm being thoughtful, and i already concede things that

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Speaker 1: are going to happen, not might happen, and I'm putting

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Speaker 1: down the foundations to take advantage of that. Probably the

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Speaker 1: biggest issue you've got as you age, I certainly did,

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Speaker 1: is that although our pattern recognition gets a whole lot better,

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Speaker 1: if we're not careful, and I think most people aren't careful,

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Speaker 1: our world begins to narrow as to what we've been

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Speaker 1: and where we've been. But I think you have to

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Speaker 1: begin to do some things that are a shock to

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Speaker 1: the system, push you to see things you haven't seen,

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Speaker 1: to keep the blinders from coming on. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to lose this open mindedness you've got that's caused you

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Speaker 1: to see all this. I think that people when they

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Speaker 1: start putting real success on the board, do a poor

432
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: job deploying humility and curiosity and leaning into youth culture

433
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 1: because the answers are in those three ingredients. And for

434
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: me at I've never been more humble, never been more curious,

435
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: and never been more youthful. And that's why I feel

436
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: more enthusiastic of my ability to be good at the

437
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: things I've been even though I'm no longer in the

438
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: kid land, I'm kind of in that middle land. In

439
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: my experience, is very hard to teach anybody curiosity either

440
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: have it or they don't. But what I do think

441
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: happens sometimes is people get afraid to use their curiosity

442
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: once they get a little successful. They're embarrassed they don't

443
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: know something. They're embarrassed to ask the stupid question. And

444
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. Not only is it great

445
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: for business, but it's also great for a sense of

446
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: self fulfillment and as sense of accomplishment and keeping you stimulated.

447
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: When I was able to convert into the man I

448
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: am today who doesn't nod his head and say yeah

449
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: when he doesn't know something, like I did in my

450
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,719
Speaker 1: twenties and even into my thirties, but now says, Hey,

451
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: I don't know what that acronym stands for, or what

452
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: do you mean there, or hey, I'm actually a little

453
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 1: bit under educated on that, even though I have the

454
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: profile that I have. When you get to that place

455
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: in your life that you're able to deploy that you

456
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: become happier because the anxiety of faking the funk or

457
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: any version of it, it's just not worth it. Gary,

458
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: I want to jump a minute because this is about podcasting,

459
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: and obviously I heart Is is a company built on audio.

460
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: Audio is really hot down finally, and you were preaching

461
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: it really early. Why did you see that caused you

462
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: to know that people were maybe running out of time

463
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: for their eyes but have plenty of time for their ears,

464
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: or that they really liked conversations and wanted to hear

465
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: about it, That people go to dinner parties and enjoy

466
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: it to know end that people go to conferences and

467
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: get a table of eight and shoot the ship, and

468
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: that time and friction are the things that customers thought about.

469
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: You said a brilliant thing that I'm sure has been

470
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: foundational in your career, which is if you give them time,

471
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: they'll give you money. It became very obvious to me

472
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: that the remote control of our society is the phone.

473
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the experience of audio consumption now because

474
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: of these three to four major players is so remarkable.

475
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: We're busier than ever, multitasking more than ever. I love

476
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: the idea of running, walking the dog, commuting, and consuming

477
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: what we want Allah the internet, not what they give

478
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: us allaw radio forcing us or allah television forcing us

479
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: into some limitations. Unlimited choice will always win. And oh

480
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: my god, it's so low cost for personalities to get

481
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: in here and do things. And oh, look at the

482
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: good job that Tim Ferris or Pat Flynn or others

483
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: are doing here. It's just gonna happen. I know it.

484
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: I have conviction. And so then when I have conviction,

485
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: I go and taste it. I start my own top

486
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: one podcast. I pay attention to the other people that

487
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: are popping in it. I start building those shows mom

488
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: bringing the CMO podcast with Stengel. I'm a practitioner, not

489
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: just a hypothesis guy. And so that's where expertise comes in.

490
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: So you have this quick hypothesis, I see things early.

491
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 1: I then have no fear in the value of attacking it. Immediately.

492
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: I'm not scared to lose the money if I'm wrong,

493
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: because the learnings will be too valuable in the long term.

494
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: I then learn now I'm speaking with triple conviction, and

495
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: you've then become a thought leader and executor of modern

496
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 1: consumer behavior. Why are marketers so hooked on the video

497
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: form when they know it's the conversation that sells. They

498
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: know it's the dinner party, they know it's the best

499
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: friend telling you something. Why does video still rule the

500
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: roost in terms of add dollars because the six holding

501
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: companies that deploy most of their capital to your platform

502
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: and many others make more margins in television commercials. There's

503
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: nothing less based on the truth of what customers are

504
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: doing than what the fortune five companies are spending in

505
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: their media dollars on. I say that with respect and

506
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: understanding and compassion of how it got there, But it

507
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: is my greatest belief. If you are Hershey's and you

508
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: want to sell chocolate, the allocation that I Heart and

509
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: its four major competitors get in consumer behavior world versus

510
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: how much money Bravo or ESPN or Fox gets in

511
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: television commercial distribution is so lacking common sense and business acuum.

512
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: It's unbearable to me, but it's just the truth. You know,

513
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: the whole world is talking about politics, this election cyclic center.

514
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it from that angle,

515
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: but looking at this election cycle, what does that tell

516
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: us about marketing? There's a lot there um Is there

517
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: any confusion how the former president United States built leverage

518
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: with the end consumer? He went direct the consumer. This

519
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 1: is something that I've soy pioneered and spoke about and

520
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: wrote a book in two that came out of No.

521
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: Nine that spoke about this exact phenomenon, the ability for

522
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: people to start their own podcasts. Even by the way,

523
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: you don't even need Amazon, Apple and Facebook. You can

524
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: get your own servers. You can make your websites and

525
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: your apps mobile centric. Like what society is asking big

526
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: tech companies to regulate. The Internet has independent u r

527
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: l s and proxies all day long. There's message boards unlimited,

528
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: there's websites unlimited. There will be millions of live stream

529
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: and live audio and audio and video platforms that pop

530
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 1: up on top of the Internet all the time that

531
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: have different points of view. The Internet is the middleman.

532
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 1: Once people get off the bandwagon, of Facebook and social

533
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: media and realize Internet It's gonna be really interesting because

534
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: I think people that are looking for democracy, happiness good

535
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: may find themselves in an place where they're asking government

536
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: to regulate Internet in a much more aggressive way like

537
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: they do in China and Russia. And it's all fine

538
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: and dandy when you like the leader of your country

539
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: regulating at the time. But in America's case, four eight

540
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: years later, do you like that? I mean, we're going

541
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: through major societal changes up and I think we're having

542
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,719
Speaker 1: very basic conversations based on Netflix Social Dilemma documentary and

543
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: the political nature of where we are, and I find

544
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: them to be very surface level debates that lack accountability

545
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: around parenting and what you do in your own home,

546
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: and lack of deep understanding of how the tech stacks

547
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: are actually built and where this is all really, really

548
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: really going, and even the capabilities of restricting communication on

549
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: an overlay of the Internet. There's a lot of chess

550
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: moves that are happening. But ultimately, to answer your question,

551
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: it means that people and companies and organizations need to

552
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: realize the way to get people to be interested in

553
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: you is to have a far more contemporary Internet centric

554
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: communication structure, which I think sits in podcasting, in O

555
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: T T commercials, and definitely in social media. Let me

556
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: go back to you. You're pretty self aware guy. If

557
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: you could give your twenty one year old self some

558
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: good advice, what would that advice be? Don't run away

559
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: from Canador just because your father delivered it in a

560
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: very negative way, and it's actually the final ingredient that

561
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: you need for you as a man and a communicator

562
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: that will take you to where you want to go.

563
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: I hope your next career is as a therapist. Carre,

564
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: you do this very well. We're coming to an end

565
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: that we end each episode with a shout out to

566
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: the grates of math and magic, because I believe marketing

567
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: is that combination of the analytics understand what's going on,

568
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: who's where and what, and then the magic, which is

569
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: the sheer creativity. Okay, I got them, I know where

570
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: they are, but I gotta tell them something that's going

571
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: to motivate them. In most cases to separate skill sets,

572
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: some people have both, but very rare. Who would be

573
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: your vote for the best in math in the analytics

574
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: of the marketing and advertising world, or even business world.

575
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: I'm very fond of Wish, the retail shopping app, and

576
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: those individuals. I think they most understood my thesis and

577
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: built a multibillion dollar retailer that most people still don't

578
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: even realize exists, completely based on incredible math centric art

579
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: that allowed them to be the biggest of them all.

580
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 1: That really stands out. Talk to me about magic. Who

581
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: gets your vote for the best magic? I'm going to

582
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: give you somebody who's emerging in magic. For me, there's

583
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: an influencer by the name of Mr Beast who I

584
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: think is subtly building some of the most interesting magic

585
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: and the way he's layering business and fun and entertainment

586
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: over himself. I believe that if I was a full

587
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: time influencer the way he is and not spending fifteen

588
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: hours a day being an operator, that I would have

589
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: some of the nuance is that he's got. And so

590
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: it's very obvious when you see your own and I

591
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: think he's going to be put on a pedestal in

592
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: the next fifteen years in a way that he isn't today.

593
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: I hope we can invest in him. Gary, You're a

594
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: legend and you always make for great conversations and have

595
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: wonderful insights. Thanks for the time today. Here are four

596
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: takeaways from my conversation with Gary. One Gary believes the

597
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: best creative ideas come through testing and iteration. Just like Seinfeld,

598
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: Gary tests and refines his ideas with new audiences over time.

599
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: Two Gary believes advertising should be relevant in multiple context

600
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: with a low cost for creative. Brands are missing an

601
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: opportunity when they don't target different consumers in different ways.

602
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: Three even if you're successful now, stay humble and stay curious.

603
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: You'll need those skills to stay relevant in the future.

604
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: And four, if you see a trend early, go for it.

605
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: As Gary says, even if you're wrong, what you learn

606
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: will be valuable. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman. That's

607
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to

608
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio. This

609
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue

610
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is

611
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: no small feat Nikki Etre for pulling research, Bill Plax

612
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: and Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch,

613
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel Noel Mango, and

614
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until

615
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: next time,