1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and you're listening to stuff bomb 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: never told you Now Today to round out our series 3 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: on role overload, we are excited to be really drilling 4 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: down into systemic solutions. Already, we've talked to experts like 5 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Tiffany Doofu about the challenges around working motherhood, Liz O'Donnell 6 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to being a working daughter, and Julia 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Carpenter all about how guess what single women want work 8 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: life balance too. Today, I'm really excited to bust down 9 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: this myth that roll overload is a personal problem. It's 10 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: not a personal problem. You can't life hack your way 11 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: out of burnout culture. Right. We exist in a country 12 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: and in a workplace culture where the norm is overwhelmed. Absolutely, 13 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: Perhaps it would be possible to break your own self 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: out of burnout culture if you lived in a vacuum 15 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: and didn't live in society. But I don't think any 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: of us is in that situation. We live in the world, 17 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: you work in workplaces. Everyone has a role in beating 18 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: this thing together and figuring it out. I think so 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: often on this show we're championing how a lot of 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: these issues we bring up actually have policy and government solutions, 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: and so I'm so excited to talk through what that 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: can look like today exactly. And I have to point 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: out my own bias here because I make a living 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: at bossed Up talking through personal solutions to our burnout 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: culture and really saying like, Okay, we operate in systems 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: of oppression that without systemic change and policy change and 27 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: organizational change will hold us back. But here's what you 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 1: can do about it right now. I like to say, 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, we've got to play the cards we've been 30 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: dealt while we change the game. But I never go 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: into those conversations or even those sort of programs that 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: I run, pretending like we can solve this on our own. 33 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: It's one thing to say, play the cards you've been 34 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,119 Speaker 1: dealt while we changed the game. Today we're talking about 35 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: what it looks like to change the game. We're talking 36 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: with the one and only Bridget Shalty, author of a phenomenal, 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: heady historical contextual book called Overwhelmed, Work, Love, and Play 38 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: when No One Has the Time, which really brings her 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,679 Speaker 1: journalistic experience to light. When you read her book, you 40 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: can tell it was written by a BOSS journalist, because 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: Bridget Shalty was with the Washington Post for almost twenty years, um, 42 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: and she really brings that kind of rigor to this 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: particular book, which walks through a historical context of how 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 1: the hell we got here as a country, how overwhelmed 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: became the norm, and what we can do about it. 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: And now she is the director of the Better Life 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: Lab with our pal and Marie Slaughter, friend of the show, 48 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: who were big fans of at New America, the Fink 49 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: Tank here in d C. The Better Life Lab, which 50 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: aims to find and highlight solutions to a better way 51 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: of working, to better define gender equity to include both 52 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: the advancement of women and the changing role of men, 53 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: and to pursue policy solutions that better fit the way 54 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: people and families work and live to enable all people 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: to thrive. I love that so much because it doesn't 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: just pigeonhold this as a women's issue exactly. Really highlights 57 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: the fact that all of us, men, women, and everyone 58 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: in between has a role to play, as do bosses, governments, policymakers, advocates. 59 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: We're all this together, exactly. I'm a huge fan of 60 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: this context that Amory Slaughter really introduced in her book 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Unfinished Business, in which she talks about caregiving and breadwinning 62 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: as equally important components that make our society work. So 63 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: how do we deal with that? In the Better Life 64 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: Lab led by Brigitialty, another accomplished, amazing journalist author overall 65 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: badass like, they've brought these two powerhouses together to come 66 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: up with real policy solutions. And we're so honored to 67 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: have you joining us here today, Bridget thank you so 68 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: much for being here. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. 69 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me so. I first came 70 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: across your work with the fabulous New York Times bestseller 71 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: book of yours, Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play When no 72 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: one has the time, and in it I really appreciated 73 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: the historical context you gave into how we got to 74 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: where we are as this hyper connected, always on, overwhelmed 75 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: work culture that feels very American American exceptionalism in the 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: least awesome way. My question for you is how unique 77 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: is the overwhelmed work culture here in the United States 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to elsewhere. Well, I think this is a 79 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: really important question. You know, it's clearly talking about American exceptionalism. 80 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: It is something that we pioneered here, this sense that 81 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: the ideal worker always works and it's always on and 82 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: always available, and that they're the best workers, and that 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: burnout is almost a badge of honor, you know. And 84 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: you see that in all sorts of fields that you know, 85 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: I've written about the medical profession, and you know, you 86 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: talk to some doctors and they'll be like, yeah, we 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: have this iron man culture. You know that you're gonna 88 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: gonna run a marathon and then you're gonna swim to 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: a couple of miles and you're gonna bike forever. And 90 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: and yet then you look at the flip side of that, 91 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: and one out of every two doctors in the United 92 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: States is showing at least one symptom of burnout. And 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but that's not somebody I 94 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: want to be like operating on me or you know, 95 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: delivering a baby or doing brain surgery or trying to 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: figure out what that tumor means. So there are some 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: real costs to this sense of always being on and 98 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: valuing that um I think, you know, when you look 99 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: at other countries, it's interesting people say, oh, it's all technology. 100 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: Technology has sped things up, and that's the really the culprit, 101 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: and it really isn't because when you look at what 102 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: happened in the United States, we'd be agan to really 103 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: value and reward long hours in about the nineteen eighties, 104 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: so that was long before we had iPhones, and you know, 105 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: people were searching the internet at all times. So this 106 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: is really a trend that started before technology, and technology 107 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: has only increased and sort of added to it and 108 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: and sort of sent us all into this kind of 109 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: like overdrive spiral. But I think where we really need 110 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: to look is that, uh, you know, the way that 111 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: we work could be imported into other into other economies. Uh, 112 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, America, the United States is very powerful culturally, um, 113 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, and this is sort of we like to 114 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 1: say that, you know, we're the best, right the American 115 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: economy and everybody should work like this American pirson Oh 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: my god. Yeahs So, so, I mean there is some 117 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 1: danger that, um, you know, that there's always on culture 118 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: added to technology will be exported. There are certainly some 119 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: signs of that in certain places. And yet on the 120 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: flip side of that, what's very interesting is that when 121 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: you look at productivity data, you know, again not just 122 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: sort of like the nice to have soft squashy anecdotal stories, 123 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: but really hard data about productivity. And you look at 124 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: hourly productivity. So the United States, we work really long 125 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: hours and that's where a lot of our productivity comes from. 126 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: But if you look at productivity per hours work, so 127 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: how good are each one of those hours? We're actually 128 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: not in top In the top runs the countries that 129 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: are most productive per hour our countries like Norway. And 130 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: what's fascinating about that is that you know the countries 131 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: that work even longer than the United States, the two 132 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: countries that work longer hours, or Japan and South Korea, 133 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: they are actually the least productive per hour of all 134 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: the sort of all the advanced economies by different measures 135 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: of I, L O and O, E, C D have 136 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: measured to have done these internet measurements, and I think 137 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: what's interesting in some of my reporting when you go 138 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: to countries that are incredibly productive per hour and yet 139 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: do not work long hours, it's because their culture is 140 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: very different and they don't value long work hours in 141 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: the way that we do in the United States. They 142 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: don't see that as a badge of honor, and instead 143 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: what's fascinating is they see it as a sign of 144 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: inefficiency and the question is you know, you know, in 145 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the United States, if you say I worked so late 146 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: last night, or I spent the night at my desk, 147 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: I was answering emails to one in the morning, there's 148 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: this sort of aren't I amazing? Aren't I dedicated? You know? 149 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: And there's this kind of like pad on the back 150 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: that you get. But if you if you make those 151 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: kinds of comments and countries like Norway or Denmark or 152 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: over some of the other places that are as productive 153 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: per hours the United States, but work thirty seven point 154 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: five hours a week, um, they'll say like, well, what's 155 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: wrong with you? Why couldn't you get your work done 156 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: on time? So the culture is very different. I wonder, Bridget, 157 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: do you feel this is different for millennials at all, 158 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: because this whole idea of working smarter not harder seems 159 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: to be this like trope I see in millennial culture. 160 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: See I almost think it's the opposite. I think that 161 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: a lot of millennials, because we came up in times 162 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: where you have to kind of struggle to find a job. 163 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: I actually see a lot of people in my same 164 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: age really giving too much of themselves to their work 165 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: and kind of getting caught up in this culture of 166 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: overwork and burnout, and I almost have seen the opposite 167 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: where I think it's because we sort of had to 168 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: find jobs in this tricky, you know climate. We say like, oh, 169 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: I'll be on email at all times. Oh I'll you know, 170 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: push myself, I'll never work from home, blah blah blah, 171 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: because we feel like we have to. I think when 172 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: it comes to millennials, folks who I see kind of 173 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: being smarter and saying, no, only take a job where 174 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I can work remotely. I'll only take a job that's 175 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: more flexible, those are the ones that I feel like 176 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: are a lot happier. Yeah. I used to really chafe 177 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: at what I felt were arbitrary standards for professor ftionalism, 178 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: like being in the office at a certain hour and 179 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: staying until a certain hour. I really rebelled as a 180 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: young professional graduating into the recession, being held to these 181 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: standards of just you know, this person next to me 182 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: is rewarded just for being at their desk, despite the 183 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: fact that I achieved everything he achieved today in the 184 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: first hour of being present at work. And I really 185 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: could not last in a workplace that was like that. 186 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: I was so vehemently opposed to to presence over efficiency. 187 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: Well along those lines, in terms of presence over performance, 188 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: that really is what the American culture, the work culture 189 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: values right now. And in a large part it's because 190 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: it's really difficult. We have not figured out how to 191 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: measure knowledge work. When is knowledge work good work? Um? 192 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: You know, And that's something that um, you know, management 193 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: consultants were warning about, you know, back in the seventies 194 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: when they were you know, thinking about, oh, we're moving 195 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: into this knowledge work culture. Well, what does that mean 196 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: when you don't have a nine to five job or 197 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: you don't have the whistle going off and you haven't 198 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: hit your targets for a number of widgets. And it's 199 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: something that you know, even as just a few years ago, 200 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: there's a big study that said we haven't figured this 201 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: out still. So because we don't know how to value 202 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: and just knowledge work, when is it good enough? When 203 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: are you done? Um? You know, then we we default 204 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: to the old way of measuring good performance, which is 205 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: simply being there being a butt in the chair. And 206 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: so part of what's going on is that we're at 207 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: this real pivot point where we've kind of got these 208 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: clashing old and new cultures and it's it's really driving 209 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: all of us crazy. And I would say it is 210 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: also driving millennials crazy. So there's a couple of things 211 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: about millennials that the surveys show that they really what 212 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: they want in time for work that's great, but also 213 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: and meaningful, but also time for their life. You know, 214 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: it's not that unusual. It's exactly what Gen X has wanted. 215 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: It's exactly what Baby boomers had wanted. The difference what 216 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: the surveys shows. The difference is that millennials are willing 217 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: to ask for it, and they're willing to walk away 218 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: if they don't get it. So that's said, you know, 219 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: so so there there are differences there in terms of 220 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: of sort of an expectation, if you will, that work 221 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be nuts, that you can work smart. 222 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: You know, that you don't have to just do what 223 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: people have always done just because they've always done it, 224 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: which I think is healthy. But at the same time 225 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that, uh, there is a disconnect between 226 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: the willingness to to walk away and the sort of 227 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: you know, the belief in the importance of having work 228 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: life balance and on the other hand, working in cultures 229 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: and getting sucked into them and wanting to succeed and 230 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: seeing that the only way to do it is to 231 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: work like a maniac. So in some of the work 232 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: that I've been doing, it's really clear and it's more 233 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 1: painful to be a millennial who overworks because you're expected 234 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: to be a slacker, and so you're working all of 235 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: these crazy hours and really really living up to these 236 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: ideal worker notions. Um, and you also feel like you're 237 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: sort of betraying your own principles and your own beliefs. 238 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: And uh So it's actually a very painful thing for 239 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: many millennials, and they're really caught up in it, and 240 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: I think it's um, hopefully out of that pain, something 241 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: good will come. Well, that's something I found so fascinating 242 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: that resonated throughout your piece for Fast Company called why 243 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: your Best life Hats Still come up short. This idea 244 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: that not only do we have these work products that 245 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: are visible, right if your boss sends an all staff 246 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: email at ten o'clock and you respond at ten o 247 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: five at night, people can see that and they make 248 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: conclusions about what kind of employee you are and how 249 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: much you care about your job. As an employee. You 250 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: naturally want to reflect your boss's you know, care about 251 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: the job that you guys are doing together, and so 252 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: you may feel obligated to respond to that email right away. 253 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: But when you do, that actually sets up the cycle 254 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: wherein you are now expect that that's the expectation that 255 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: you are setting. And so it's just like what you said, 256 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: it's this cultural thing where you become a cog in it. 257 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: You get pulled into it, and you don't want to 258 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: be that person who was saying, wait, this is dumb. 259 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: We could be working better if we were all at home, 260 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: or like, we could be working better if we didn't 261 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: have ten meetings a day. We could be working better 262 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: if we just got our work done during the day 263 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: and didn't spend the evening time, you know, collaborating over 264 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: emails and just you know, staying up at night. We 265 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: could be working more efficiently. It doesn't actually feel like 266 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: that is something that is rewarded. And I think it's 267 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: because you know, you see the person who hits in 268 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: on that email. You see the person whose butt is 269 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: in the chair at seven thirty in the morning and 270 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: it is there untill nine o'clock at night. Those are 271 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: all the work products that are visible and concrete and 272 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: tangible and the other things you might not see at all. 273 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: So in Emily's example where she did all of the 274 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: thing that her deskmate did, you know, from home, before 275 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: she even got there or whatever, people can't see that. 276 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: All they know is it's getting done. But people can 277 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: see him sitting in his chair exactly well. And that 278 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: was the funny thing that peace, you know, because it 279 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: was sort of about, you know, really solving this as 280 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: bigger than you. All the life hacks in the world, 281 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: I mean, they're great life hacks, and you can be 282 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: more productive, and there are certain things that you can do, 283 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: but to answer this question, it is not all up 284 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: to you. And I have to say I don't think 285 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: this was one of the more popular pieces on Fast 286 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: Company because everybody wants like the that they want the 287 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: life pack and they want it to be easy, and 288 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: it's not easy because we are we human beings are 289 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: social creatures, and we are driven to conform to the 290 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: social norm. And right now, you work in a place 291 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: where the social norm is that it values over work. 292 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: You know, you are just wired to want to fit 293 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: in and want to to perform and and go sort 294 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: of quote unquote above and beyond. And so that's why 295 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: it's so important for leaders, middle managers and leaders to 296 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: not only uh, you know, talk the talk, but walk 297 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: the walk. And I have to be perfectly honest. I 298 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: came from uh, you know, I've been I called myself 299 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: a recovering workaholic. And you know, I was in daily 300 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: newspapers for most of my career. And then when I 301 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: left and I came to New America where I'm directing 302 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: the Better Life lab right. Our whole job is to 303 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: try to make work in life better for people. Um, 304 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: And I was sending those emails late at night, and 305 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: because I would have an idea, It's like, oh, this 306 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: is a great idea. I want to share this with 307 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: the team. This is so exciting. I need to get 308 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: it out of my head. And I got to clear it. 309 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: And then, you know, I was only thinking of myself. 310 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: And what I was not realizing is that when I 311 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: sent out that email, just as you described, I was 312 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: actually creating stress and cognitive load on my team because 313 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: they had to decide, Well, she says that we don't 314 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: have to answer emails at night, but she's the boss, 315 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: and well should we and we want to make sure 316 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: that she thinks that we're doing a good job. And 317 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: we all are dedicated and we're passionate about this too, 318 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: and do I need to answer us? And even going 319 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: through the anticipation of a was I gonna send an email? 320 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: B did, they had to like spend time thinking about 321 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: whether to respond to it. That takes up cognitive bandwidth, 322 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: That actually takes you out of the moment. It puts 323 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: your brain in this kind of vigilant mode. And there's 324 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: actually research that shows that we are more stressed out 325 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: by anticipating late night emails from our boss and actually 326 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: getting them. And so I have to say I have 327 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: a great team. And they took my laptop from me 328 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: the next day and installed Boomerang, and they said, we 329 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: understand you need to get these ideas out of your 330 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: head because then you know, then your mind is clear, 331 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: but don't send it to us. You know, when we 332 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: want our minds to be thinking about something else. And 333 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: so now I am trying. I try to be very careful, 334 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: and I'm not perfect yet, you know, That's why I 335 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: say I'm in the recovery mode. But now I tried, 336 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: if I get something, I have an idea. I want 337 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: to get it out of my head. I schedule it, 338 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: I send it out, but I but I, you know, 339 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: I get it out of my head, but I schedule 340 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: it so out during work hours. Um. And I think 341 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: that just even small little nudges like that can make 342 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: a big difference, because now my team knows when they 343 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: leave work they are really off, you know. And most 344 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: of us are not firefighters. Most of us are not 345 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: e er doctors, you know, most knowledge workers. The world 346 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: is not going to fall apart, and nobody's going to 347 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: die if we don't answer the email that evening. And 348 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: yet we all have this kind of like breathless feeling 349 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: that that somehow we're so important and our job is 350 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: so amazing that we can't not do it. And yet 351 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: once you once you start creating those boundaries, and once 352 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: you start creating more space for other things in your life, 353 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: the irony is your work actually gets better because you're fresher, 354 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 1: because you're able to make more connections, because you're not 355 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: so burned out and just constantly in this like powering 356 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: through slogging mode like you know so many people are. 357 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it just blows my mind that the gallop 358 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: polls every year show that, like Cluse, the of America, 359 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: can workers say they're disengaged at work. You know, that 360 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: is not the kind of workforce. So that's not the 361 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: kind of human capital that's going to get you, you know, 362 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: the latest and greatest and coolest innovation or efficiency. I'm 363 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: so glad that you brought up the point about you 364 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: like working in news. You know, I'm a former journalist 365 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: and twenty four hour news cycle. Now I work in politics, 366 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: and I think, just like you were saying, there's this 367 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: temptation to believe, oh my god, if I don't answer 368 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: this email right away, the world is gonna end, something's 369 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: gonna happen, it's going to be a crisis. In reality, 370 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: most times that's not the case. We've just internalized that 371 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: that's the case. I almost feel like it's this weird 372 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: kind of narcissism that we're so important, Heaven forbid we 373 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: not be on email for five minutes. But I also 374 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: know that working in journalism and working in media and 375 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: working in politics, there are going to be times where 376 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 1: there is legitimately a crisis where you have to get 377 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: out of bed and answer that email. But not everything 378 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: is that crisis. And so if it's comic kind of 379 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: like that boy who Cried Wolf thing, where if we 380 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: treat every email like it's urgent, if we treat everything 381 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: like it's a it's an emergency that you have to 382 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: answer right away, no matter what time it is when 383 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: that critical thing does happen, where you need to be 384 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: on all cylinders either A you're not gonna pick it 385 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: seriously because everything is a crisis and when everything is 386 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: a crisis, nothing's a crisis. Or be you're gonna be 387 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: so tired having dealt with that last crisis that wasn't 388 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: really a crisis that you're not going to be able 389 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: to really be on all cylinders to actually deal with 390 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: it in an efficient way. Yeah, that is true. That's true, 391 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: so true. And I feel like this is such a 392 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: meta conversation for me because I like you, Bridget, I 393 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: love a good life hack, and you know, I obviously 394 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 1: see the systemic forces at play, but I also, you know, 395 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: play into millennials desire to advocate and ask for more 396 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: and help them get the sustainability that they're craving in 397 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: my line of work, but internally at boss Up, we 398 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: onboard our staff members with a clear set of norms 399 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: for when we expect work happening and when we expect 400 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: work to not be happening. And I regularly have to 401 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: tell my team members who are enthusiastic and excited. I 402 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: just had a conversation with my staff member Emmy last Friday, 403 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: who said, Okay, I'll get this draft to you over 404 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: the weekend. I said, Emmy, no, you will not, and 405 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: she went on a camping trip. I was like, do 406 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: not get me a draft of this over the weekend. 407 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: For us, what's really been helpful is deciphering between what 408 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: is important and versus what is urgent, and really understanding 409 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: those two differences. Yeah, that's really important. I think. The 410 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: other thing to remember, um, you know, there's been really 411 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: interesting research on productivity and you know, how how can 412 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: you really push yourself? And just like you say, the 413 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: research shows that you really can push yourself, you know, 414 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: if you've got a deadline or there's some emergency, you know, 415 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: but really for a short finite period of time, you know, 416 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: for really no more than a couple of weeks, and 417 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: then after that, your your performance really starts to degrade. 418 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: And you know, over the over the course of maybe 419 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: six weeks, you really would have been much better off 420 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: if you just kept working at a reasonable pace. You know, 421 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: it's six weeks, you know, you are so burned out 422 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: that you've actually lost any of those productivity gains from 423 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: from pushing yourself so hard for a couple of weeks. 424 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: So there really is sort of a cliff you can 425 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: fall off. So, yes, you can push yourself. There's always 426 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: going to be some kind of emergency and you do, 427 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: you know, and people will need to be all hands 428 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: on deck, but it is not every single knife. Let's 429 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back, let's 430 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: continue the conversation around what companies and organizations can do 431 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: to make life and work better and more efficient for 432 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: all of us. We'll be right back after a quick 433 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. And we're back, and we are 434 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: sitting down with the incredible author, think tank director of 435 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: the Better Life Lab at New America, Bridget Chulza. Bridget, 436 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining as today. Oh it's great 437 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So 438 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: we've been talking about what you've done as a boss, 439 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: what I've done at my company, and what we as 440 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: Americans really desire when it comes to sustainability and efficiency 441 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: at work, whether you're a millennial or not. So what 442 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: can these employers Because we know more and more employers 443 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: are getting on board, at least in name, with this 444 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: concept of sustainability and efficiency because we know, right, happier, 445 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: healthier employees are better for the bottom line. So how 446 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: can companies make roll overload easier for all of us? Well, 447 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: I guess the first thing I would say is, I'm 448 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: not sure that companies are really convinced, yeah, that having 449 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: happier and healthier employees is better for the bottom line. 450 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: There's plenty of reports that show that that's true. There's 451 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: plenty of studies that show that having more women in 452 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: leadership and management actually may to your you know, boost 453 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: performance in the bottom line. And yet look at where 454 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: we are. We're really stuck. We're stuck in people over working, 455 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: we're stuck in women being kind of stuck and trapped 456 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: in middle management, and only a few kind of you know, 457 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: clawing their way to the top. So I think that 458 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: it's really important just to to understand that while there 459 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: is good data out there, I don't think it's really set, 460 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's sunk in and that 461 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: a big part of the reason why I've been doing 462 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: a lot of work with some behavioral scientists and really 463 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: trying to understand more human nature more. And you know, 464 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: change is really hard for human beings. Uh, we have 465 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: something called status quo bias. We're just because we're doing 466 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: it and it's for familiar we tend to keep doing it. 467 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: And I think that that, you know, it's it's so apparent. 468 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: You can look at that and in so many different 469 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: arenas and see that. So for workplaces, for organizations, for teams, Uh, 470 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: you know, even for individual rules, it's really hard to 471 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: break out of that status quo bias. Well, this is 472 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: the way we've always done things, and this is the 473 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: way we should keep doing them. You know, even in 474 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: the face of really good data that you should have 475 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: more women in leadership, that you should have better work 476 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: life balance, you know that you will work better if 477 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: you work smarter and you're not burning out all time. 478 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: So I think one of the things to do for 479 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: for leaders is to think about the status quo as 480 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: just one of a number of options that so that 481 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: you kind of move out of that, Well, this is 482 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: the way we've always done it, and and so you 483 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: almost think about it as scenario planning, it's like, Okay, 484 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: could keep doing it this way. And then when you 485 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: when you start putting the status quo against other models, 486 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 1: you begin to see all of the costs. You know, 487 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: people say things like, oh, paid family, we can't do it, 488 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: it's so expensive, it costs too much. And yet if 489 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: you put the current reality is just one scenario, then 490 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: what you have to do is start accounting for the 491 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: costs of not doing it. Have to account predict costs 492 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: of increased stress and attrition and turnover and you know, 493 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: disengagement and unhappy is uh and all of the things 494 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: that you don't account for now because this is just 495 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: the way that we've all done stuff. So I think 496 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: that's the first thing is to recognize that change is 497 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 1: hard and that we do have the status quo bias, 498 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: and so that we almost have to think are we 499 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: have to design around that? And so so some of 500 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: the things that that that we're suggesting companies do is 501 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: really look at flexibility but adopt it as something that's 502 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: a default for everyone, rather than think about it as 503 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: an accommodation for a mother or a woman or a caregiver, 504 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: because that just ends up creating such stigma and bias, 505 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: and that's how you create the money track, and that 506 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: when you realize that good work can be done, um, 507 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: you know, based more on people's bio rhythms if you will, uh, 508 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: that you create flexibility that does not require a reason, 509 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: and that you open it up for men and women 510 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: and it just becomes the way you work. That that 511 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: goes a long way to creating systems that are fairer, 512 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: creating lifestyles that are actually healthy, heer, and the creating 513 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: work that's better. Uh, and also opening up possibility for 514 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: much more gender equality, which is really stymied right now. Well, 515 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: that was another aspect of your peace Profast company that 516 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: I found so telling. This idea that oftentimes things like 517 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: flexibility can become sort of gifts quote unquote that employers 518 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: give to their employees, not something that actually makes everybody's 519 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: job better and more efficient. This idea that oh, if 520 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: your boss lets you work remotely, or it gives you 521 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: more flexibility or you know, is more flexible with how 522 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: you work best, they're doing you some kind of a favor. 523 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: And I think it really is about cultural change, where 524 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: we understand that we are as an organization, as a 525 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: team going to make choices about how we work best. 526 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: And I also think it's really telling that I completely 527 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: agree with you from what you said before that I 528 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 1: don't think all companies are moving towards this idea of 529 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: happier employees makes makes for better work. It's interesting because 530 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 1: I've worked in some of the most progressive, cutting edge 531 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: organizations around, and they're still sort of caught up in 532 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: this old school notion of what it means to be 533 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: successful impolite. These are organizations that, for any other choice 534 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: they make, it's a data driven choice. They look at evidence, 535 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 1: they test things out. The worst thing you could say 536 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: is we do this because we've always done it. That's 537 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: like a no no to say in these organizations. Yet 538 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 1: they will have that day and night when it comes 539 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: to how they're planning a campaign, how they're rolling something 540 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: out for a launch. When it comes to how they're 541 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: working their own people and managing their own teams, it's well, 542 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: what are we gonna do if the whole team isn't 543 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: here for the meeting and people call in? Or how 544 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: can we let people work remotely? How can we be 545 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: flexible people. It's like this weird way where in there 546 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: so forward thinking and data driven, an evidence based when 547 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: it comes to how they're running their business, but when 548 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: it comes to how they're running their teams, that all 549 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: goes out the window. Yeah, that kind of ognitive dissonance 550 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: I've heard of a lot, And I'm biased because I 551 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: only work with companies that are coming to us because 552 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: they are on board with this, at least philosophically, and 553 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: want to know how to make it happen. So I 554 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: don't know. I think tools like the New America's Better 555 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: Work Toolkit that came out of the Better Life Lab 556 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: are doing a great job of making the logical case 557 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: for it, but like you said, Bridget, there needs to 558 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: be an emotional case for it, or at least a 559 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: financial case for diversity in leadership and sustainability in the workplace, 560 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: or an organization being able to justify just what Bridget 561 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: was saying, why it's worth what it's going to cost 562 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: to not invest in those things. If you can make 563 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: the case for why it's worth wasting money to not 564 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: invest in these things that we know are more efficient 565 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: and going to be more efficient for your organization, explain that, like, 566 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: make that case, But I think you have a really 567 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: hard time doing so well. I think the part of 568 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: what makes this difficult is that it's a belief. It's 569 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: not based on data, it's not based on anything other 570 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: than like an ur a coll of faith. Well, I 571 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: think that you know, the best workers are the ones 572 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: that are most committed, and the way they show that 573 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: is by always being here and always being on. So 574 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: to tackle that it does require data, but it requires 575 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: more than data, you know, it requires sort of redesigning things. 576 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: It's um. When you talk to design thinkers, they'll say, 577 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: sometimes it's easier to act your way into a new 578 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: way of thinking than it is to think your way 579 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: into a new way of acting. So part of what 580 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: we did at the with the Better Work Toolkit, we 581 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: were working on a project on the science of work, 582 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: liass balance and health with the Robert with Johnson Foundation 583 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: and Ideas forty two UM. There are nonprofit of behavioral 584 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: scientists trying to use behavioral science to solve real world problems. 585 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: And we're looking at work life conflict and overwork and 586 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: trying to understand some of the behavioral science behind what 587 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: drives it. And then how do you design solutions again, 588 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: how do you kind of nudge people into acting into 589 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 1: a new way which then might lead to a new 590 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: way of thinking rather than trying to convince or persuade 591 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: people and then trying to get them to change some 592 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: of their behaviors. So one of the things that we've done, 593 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: we've gone into UM started with nonprofits and Ideas forty 594 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: two went in and did some kind of on the 595 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: ground UM UM interviewing if you will, And I've been 596 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: doing UM kind of the storytelling partner and so I've 597 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: been doing a lot of reporting alongside that. And one 598 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: of the things that we really focused on is like, well, 599 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: what are the pain points at at work organizations and 600 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: really trying to get a handle of like what's kind 601 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: of where what's driving some of that overwork and what 602 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: are people really unhappy about? And that's where we came 603 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: up with sort of the three things that a lot 604 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 1: of companies and teams came up with to try to 605 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: to try to solve some of the questions around changing 606 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: family structure and that how we didn't have the American 607 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: wife at home anymore? And how did you how would 608 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: the workplace respond to UM, you know, kind of changing 609 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: family structure and changing workforce. And they came up with 610 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: a lot of let's be more flexible, let's give workers 611 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: more autonomy, and then we'll collaborate more. You technology has 612 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: brought so much more collaboration, and yet what we found 613 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: is that there these are kind of like new systems, 614 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: but they've been layered onto legacy systems. So you have 615 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: the new system of email, but it's layered onto this 616 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: legacy system of meetings. And so again when I was 617 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: talking about being at this pivot point, we are at 618 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: this kind of crashing of old and new, and that's 619 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: part of what we really what we really uncover is, 620 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: um you know, how do you then just make an 621 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: argument based purely on what you're experiencing? Well, email overload, 622 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: Well what can you do about it? Well, how about 623 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: you try some of these judges. How about you try 624 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: to make it more difficult to send an email after hours? 625 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: You know, maybe you have like you know, or you 626 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: set a boomerang so you schedule them, you know, or 627 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: you or you kind of like create more um you know, 628 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: you create more systems where it's easier to push people 629 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: to take vacation. And that becomes part of the planning 630 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: early on in the year January, in February, pick your 631 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: time and then you can always swap it. But a 632 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: lot of the problem is, you know, because you've got 633 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: these work cultures where your value all this overwork, you 634 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: don't schedule your vacation and then all of a sudden, 635 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, your calendar fills up, and then it's June 636 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: and you better take your vacation, and your family is 637 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: on your case and why aren't you why you know? 638 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: And then you look at your calendar You're like, oh 639 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: my god, there's no way I can schedule it. What 640 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: if you design something where you scheduled it in February 641 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: when all that time in July and August is totally white, 642 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: it's white space. And so and then once you start 643 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,959 Speaker 1: taking vacation and then you plan for it and you've 644 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,959 Speaker 1: anticipated it, and you set up work systems where you 645 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: know it and everybody else can you know, they're they're 646 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: ready for you to be gone, and so you don't 647 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: have to worry about a last minute kind of panic. Uh. 648 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: And then once you create that space for taking vacation, 649 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason why people don't and 650 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: they don't unplug is that we don't have a lot 651 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: of practice doing it, and so that we've we've lost. 652 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: We decided we can't remember why that time is important. 653 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: And so if you create those kind of systems that 654 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: make it more likely you'll be able to unploy in 655 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: the evening, or that you'll take a weekend off, or 656 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: you'll actually have vacation so that you can truly recharge 657 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: and experience that time. The better you know, the more 658 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: you do it, the more you realize how critical it 659 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: is for not only joy but also doing for doing 660 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: good work. The more you practice, you'll have I gotta 661 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: jump in here because Bridget over here, Bridget Todd has 662 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: this look on her face that makes me think that 663 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 1: are you feeling personally called in on this other front? 664 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: I feel a little attached right now. I'm not gonna lie, Bridget. 665 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: Something to know about me is that I have not 666 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: taken a vacation, maybe since I wasn't maybe high school 667 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 1: or honestly it might have been like a college spring 668 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,479 Speaker 1: break trip. Uh. And we've had a little on air 669 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: conversation about operation vacation. Vacation bridget Todd edition, I do. 670 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's everything you said and so 671 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: so so much more. I think it's part of the 672 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: American sort of fetishization of hustle and drive and look 673 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: at me, aren't I a martyr? That I never take 674 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: vacation and I never unplugged and blah blah blah. And 675 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: I think it's exactly what you said. When you feel 676 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: when everything feels scattered and you know you're kind of 677 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: always in triage mode, always just trying to make it 678 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: to the next day. You can't look at your calendar 679 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: and say, you know, this is the month I'm gonna 680 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: do it. That seems so unrealistic, right, Like the idea 681 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: that I could look at my calendar and say, I'm 682 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: gonna have room to go to Costa Rica in January. 683 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to make it to tomorrow, right, And so 684 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: I think what you described is accurate. But I also 685 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: just from someone who's in that in that position, like 686 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: really in it, I feel it right, like it feels 687 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: very real, and it feels like what you're describing of 688 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: calendaring out when you're gonna have you know, time off 689 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: and sort of that that does that that kind of 690 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: design of your of how your life is going to 691 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: go that almost seems like a fantasy. It sounds awesome, 692 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: but I think for a lot of our listeners out there. 693 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: They might have just heard what you said and said, yeah, 694 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: that chance, lady, I'm gonna look at my calendar and say, oh, 695 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: in February, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna have this 696 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: lovely vacation. But I think it's exactly what you said 697 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: that it's a cultural shift of understanding why you're not 698 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: doing yourself any favors by not being able to do that. Well, 699 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: that's why your boss has to sit you down in January. 700 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: That's what I do with my staff too. Like it's personal, sure, 701 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: and especially in our freelancer hustle side hustle type culture 702 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: that we operate in, it's tough because we're our own 703 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: boss in a lot of ways. But you know, it's individual, 704 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 1: it's systemic in terms of an organization, and there are 705 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: things that our government can do. Let's let's be real, 706 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: let's get on that policy soapbox for a second, because 707 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 1: America can be better on this, Like there are models 708 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,919 Speaker 1: of other countries that have clearly made progress on this, 709 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: and bridget That's what I want to talk about when 710 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: we come back from this next quick break, So hang on, 711 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: we want to hear all that New America has to share. 712 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: About what other countries have figured this out and how 713 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: we in the United States can get on board with 714 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: a Better Life We'll be right back after this quick 715 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, and we're back, and Bridget Todd 716 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,439 Speaker 1: was just making her plans to head to Costa Rica 717 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: on vacation, y'all, So stay tuned for news on that front. 718 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, we're here with Bridget Chalty, author 719 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: lead director of the New America's Better Life Lab. Let's 720 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: talk about Uncle Sam, shall we like? We know that 721 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: individuals we've got to get out of the martyrdom mind set. 722 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: We know that organizations have to make changes in how 723 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: they're acting to start believing in this concept of sustainability 724 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: being good for business. What on earth is government's role 725 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: in making this easier on all of us? Well, you know, honestly, 726 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: country or society, they signal what's important in the policies 727 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: that they hold and policies. You know, one of the 728 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: things we work on the Better Life Lab is not 729 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: only policy. We do original research and data and storytelling, 730 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: but we're really all about culture change and so sort 731 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: of a chicken or egg, what comes first is the 732 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: culture change and then the policy changes. But there's a 733 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: lot of really good evidence from other countries that when 734 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: you change a policy, then the culture changes. So we're 735 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: trying to press on both of those level levers, you know. 736 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: So there's there's a lot that that that the government 737 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: could do. Um. You know, for instance, in some countries 738 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: they have flexibility to call it a right to request. 739 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: In the UK, UM, you as a as a worker, 740 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 1: you have the right to request a flexible schedule and 741 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: a and your manager, your boss can only turn you 742 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: down if they can make a business case about why 743 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: it would hurt the business. So that's certainly something that 744 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: we could do, you know, UM businesses and it may 745 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: not like that, well then I would say, then then 746 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 1: jump ahead of the curve and make flexibility the default 747 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: in your business. I don't wait for the government to 748 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: be involved, you know, go ahead and lead on that one. Um. 749 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: You know, there's plenty of other things that we could 750 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: do to understand and to reflect the fact that the 751 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 1: workplaces today are still set up to accommodate the male 752 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,959 Speaker 1: worker of the ninety fifties. You know, the workplace today 753 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: does not uh really does not mesh or or there's 754 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: such a huge disconnect between the way people really live 755 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: their lives and what they're expected to do at work, 756 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: so we could have things where the only advanced economy 757 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: with no paid family leave policy, family medical leaf policy. 758 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: We're the only advanced country that does not have a 759 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: paid vacation days policy. UM. And we're our labor laws 760 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: were actually they haven't been updated in seventy five years. 761 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: The fairly the Fair Labor Standards Act was we were 762 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: leading the world all back in the nineteen thirties when 763 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: we came up with the forty hour work week and 764 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: the minimum wage, and at the time there was discussion 765 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: that we should also have a national two week vacation policy. UM. 766 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: But then, you know, unfortunately they started out with three things, 767 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: and in the way that compromise works, they got rid 768 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: of two and they got rid of one and they 769 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: left us with two. So maybe they should have started 770 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: with five things, and then we would have ended up 771 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: with a paid vacation policy, but we didn't. UM. But 772 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that that has done 773 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: is that it limited over time hours for hourly workers. 774 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: That said, you know, the Fair Labor Standards Act says 775 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: if you work over a certain number of hours, forty 776 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: hours you know, if you're an hourly worker, then you 777 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: get time and a half. Well, that didn't happen with 778 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: knowledge workers if you're a salaried worker. So literally, uh, 779 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,359 Speaker 1: you know. And at the time in the thirties, there 780 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: weren't as many salaried workers as hourly workers. And now 781 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,919 Speaker 1: we've got so many knowledge workers that literally, by law, 782 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: you can work people to death and it's perfectly legal, uh, 783 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: you know, if you're a salaried worker. So it's time 784 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: to really rethink our labor laws, uh and really think 785 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 1: about them as investments in human capital, which is really 786 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 1: what our workforce is. Um. So, yes, paid family lead, 787 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: high quality, affordable, subsidized chapoo care. You know, it's it's 788 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: a sounding. Yeah. Let's let's talk more about those two things. 789 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: Because first of all, you just released a new report 790 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: from New America that asked the question how much paid 791 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: family leave is enough? And I think that's something a 792 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: lot of businesses and our government is wrestling with. What 793 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: did y'all find? Well, so what we did is we 794 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: reviewed more than a hundred fifty academic studies from the 795 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: United States and around the world, and we read many more, 796 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,280 Speaker 1: but we only we only kept the most rigorous, rigorously 797 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: designed ones. And we had the same question, Well, you know, 798 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: where did the twelve weeks of family unpaid Family Medical 799 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: Leave Act come from? At the time that Trump administration 800 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: was talking about a six week at first paid maternity 801 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: leave and then now it's a paid parental leaf policy 802 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: that they've been talking about, where did that come from? Um, 803 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, do you get six weeks or eight weeks 804 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: of disability pay after you've had after childbirth? But you know, 805 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 1: where did these times come from? And are they you know, 806 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: what kind of time should we be looking at? Uh? 807 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: And so what was really interesting. We looked at four 808 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: different outcomes. We looked at infant and child health and wellness, 809 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: maternal health and wellness, gender equality, and economic impact, the 810 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: business impact. And we came up with four really four 811 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: different recommendations. And the data is really clear when you 812 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: look at infant mortality or SIDS SIDS rates, I mean, 813 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: the United States, we have a really high infant mortality rate. 814 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: We have one of the highest SIDS death rates of 815 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: any country, not just advanced economies, any country. We have 816 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: one of the highest maternal mortality rates, even higher than 817 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, places of a recent conflict like Bossia and Kazakhstan. 818 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: So we're not doing so great on the health front, 819 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: and those are huge costs. And so what we've found 820 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: is the data is really clear to really reduce infant 821 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,319 Speaker 1: mortality and have an impact on SIDS and really set 822 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: a child up for healthy development, our recommendation is one 823 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,879 Speaker 1: year split between parents, and I think the data it's 824 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: really clear the data supports that. UM when you look 825 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: at maternal health and wellness UM where the six to 826 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: eight weeks came from. That was set back in the 827 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. What people don't realize is that until the 828 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: Pregnancy Discrimination Act passed in the nineteen seventies, there was 829 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: no that made pregnancy a disability, you know, so that 830 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 1: then you could cut you your state had a temporary 831 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: disability insurance fund, or you your your company had a 832 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: private disability insurance then you could qualify where a disability 833 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: under pregnancy. So that did not happen until the nineteen seventies. 834 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: And now those were just the you know, some some 835 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: insurance persons somewhere just said, I don't know, six weeks, Yeah, okay, 836 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 1: that sounds good. But what we found is that the 837 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: data really is clear that a majority of women are 838 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: still experiencing at least one symptom of childbirths at six months, 839 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's dizzy, dizziness, nausea, fatigue, urinary incontinence, 840 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: that your body is still really not healed. So we 841 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: say a minimum of six months for ensuring um good 842 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: maternal outcomes. And there's great data that shows how that 843 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: has not only huge physical impacts, but mental health impacts, 844 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: that reduces maternal depression, and that lasts over a lifetime. 845 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: We found really interesting longitudinal research out of Europe that 846 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,239 Speaker 1: showed even thirty years later, if you had had a 847 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, if you had had a decent amount of 848 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: time to recover from childbirth, that protective effect lasted for decades. 849 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: When when it came to gender equality, the data was 850 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,399 Speaker 1: not as clear about how long a leap should be, 851 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: but it was really clear that when you made space 852 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: for men to take lead solo parentally, that it had 853 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: a huge impact on relationship quality, on gender equality within 854 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,400 Speaker 1: the relationship um, it had a big impact on child 855 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: development and the bonds between children and their fathers. Uh 856 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: So we didn't have like a particular duration, you know, 857 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: like it should be x number of days or weeks 858 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: or months. But we did say equal bonding lead between 859 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,800 Speaker 1: men and women. That the data is so so clear 860 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: that that makes a huge difference. Right when you're you know, 861 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: when a child comes into a family, you know, all 862 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: of your family dynamics are just thrown up into here, 863 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,399 Speaker 1: and so that's a perfect time to set a really 864 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: different dynamic where you really share care and you share 865 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: your lives together. The last one that we looked at 866 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: was economic impact. And again what's really clear is that 867 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: it's if you think about you think about it like 868 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,720 Speaker 1: a bell curve, like if if a leave is too short, 869 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: women tend to leave the workplace, but if a leave 870 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: is too long, they tend to not be able to 871 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,439 Speaker 1: come back to work or back at the same level. 872 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: We look looked at places and like the Czech public 873 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,879 Speaker 1: where you could you could gone, you could be out 874 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 1: for three years on with some kind of pay under 875 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: different schemes per child um and it was very difficult 876 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: then for women to get back into the workplace. So 877 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: there's a sweet spot between you know, like nine months 878 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: to a year for uh that if a if a 879 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: if a woman has that long that kind of sufficient 880 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,399 Speaker 1: duration of a of a paid lead, they will come 881 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: back into the workplace and they're actually ready and their 882 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: um there the kind of real performance and productivity benefit 883 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: to that. Yes. So one of the chapters you dive 884 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: into in your book is about how the Republican Party 885 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: almost passed an affordable childcare of aform bill. So what 886 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 1: happened with that and do you ever think will get 887 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,399 Speaker 1: close to having something like that again in this country? Well, 888 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 1: and it wasn't just Republicans. It was actually a bipartisan 889 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: UH bill and a bipartisan effort. It was a really 890 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: fascinating time. It was the early night. What is that bipartisan? 891 00:46:55,520 --> 00:47:01,240 Speaker 1: What does that mean? Yeah, Republicans and Republicans and Democrats 892 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: were not mortal enemies. Yeah, they were actually well together 893 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: there for the benefit of the people, which is what 894 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: you would help a Demlar person is all about. But 895 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies, there was a couple of 896 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 1: things that were happening that were really interesting, and one 897 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 1: was that they were just beginning to do more brain studies. 898 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: You know, before then, they thought that babies were just 899 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,280 Speaker 1: sort of like these blobs and it didn't really matter 900 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: what you did the babies. You could leave them in 901 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 1: a drawer, put them in a playpen, and they were 902 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 1: just beginning to understand just how critical this time was 903 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: for really setting architecture of their brains and uh, you know, 904 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: setting the stage for all future development. And so there 905 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: was so at the time President Richard Nixon got very 906 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: interested in that and said, you know, we really need 907 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: to make sure that all children have the best start 908 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: in life. And at the same time, this is right 909 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: when women started entering the workforce and mass in part 910 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: because the Women's movement had opened up more um jobs 911 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,400 Speaker 1: that had been traditionally masculine jobs that had opened up 912 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,240 Speaker 1: more opportunity for women. But also at the same time, 913 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: there were more and more working class women who went 914 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: to work because sort of the family wage quote unquote 915 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,200 Speaker 1: if you will, had started to stagnate and families just 916 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: couldn't make it on one salary anymore. And so it 917 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 1: was really an economic necessity that a lot of women 918 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: entered the workforce workforce, you know, just to keep the 919 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: standard of living the same. And so there were poles 920 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 1: and said, hey, more and more women are in the workplace, Um, 921 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be a great idea, you know, should we 922 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,319 Speaker 1: help should we help them with childcare, and majorities of 923 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats came back and said, yes, the government 924 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: should actually play a role in this. So there was 925 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,239 Speaker 1: a huge bill that actually had bipartisan support. The nix 926 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 1: And administ administration. They were working behind the scenes to 927 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: craft the bill. They had a big coalition. Uh, and 928 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: they actually it passed both House and Senate, and it 929 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: made it to the White House. And it would it 930 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,720 Speaker 1: would have called for high quality, easily accessible child care, 931 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,320 Speaker 1: easily affordable. It was supposed to be on a siding scale. 932 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: There'd be high standards, there would be good pay. Um. 933 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: You know, it was basically childcare in every corner. Um. 934 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: And it got to the White House. And at the time, uh, 935 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,480 Speaker 1: there this was just at the beginning of the rise 936 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: of the kind of the far right wing of the 937 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 1: Republican Party. UM. And Pat Buchanan who was sort of 938 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,479 Speaker 1: in the vanguard. UM. He was working in the White 939 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: House at the time for Richard Nixon. He's a speech writer. 940 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 1: And I went and interviewed him for my book and 941 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: I and he said, I saw that bill coming and 942 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 1: to him that that felt like the end of America. 943 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,919 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, uh, what makes America great 944 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: is its families, and family is mom is home when 945 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,399 Speaker 1: the kids come home from school, with you know, waiting 946 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: for them, with kicken pie. And I just looked at it, 947 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: and I said, well, you know a majority of mothers 948 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: in this country work, you know, they work outside the 949 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,479 Speaker 1: home for pay. Um. And that didn't that didn't seem 950 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,439 Speaker 1: to register with him. And he said, well, go ahead 951 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: and work, but I'm you know, don't make don't make 952 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: me pay for Johnny or jim you know, Jimmy or whatever. 953 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: So he pav Yuchan and convinced Richard Nixon to veto that. 954 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,719 Speaker 1: Bill and Pa Buchanan had just come back from a 955 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: trip to the Soviet Union at the time, um, and 956 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:16,279 Speaker 1: this was at the height of the Cold War. He 957 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: saw all these little kids and these you know, in 958 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,720 Speaker 1: these kind of quote unquote Soviet daycares, and he became 959 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,440 Speaker 1: terrified that that's what that's what childcare was, that we 960 00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 1: would send all of our American children like rip them 961 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,279 Speaker 1: out of the mother's arms and rip them out of 962 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 1: the house, and send them off to these little factories 963 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: and make them, you know, march around and I don't know, 964 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 1: sbout Leninist doctrine or something such nonsense. Thanks a lot, Pat, 965 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,439 Speaker 1: like really really blowing up our spot here by like, 966 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, branding this idea of affordable national childcare as indoctrination, 967 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: like Russian indoctrination of our kids. That's not at all 968 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,840 Speaker 1: what was going to be. Well, that's exactly how he 969 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: painted it. And he stirred up the conservative base, you know, 970 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,200 Speaker 1: the infull wars of the time, the conservative columnists, and 971 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:09,240 Speaker 1: they really scared people. And Nixon decided to veto the bill, 972 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,799 Speaker 1: and he let Pat Buchanan write the veto message. And 973 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 1: when I talked to Pat Buchanan, he said, we not 974 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,520 Speaker 1: only wanted to kill the bill, but we wanted to 975 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: kill the very idea of childcare in the United States. Well, 976 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,680 Speaker 1: he's been pretty successful in that and never hasn't. And 977 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,560 Speaker 1: what's that's pro family like killing childcare? And well, right, 978 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,560 Speaker 1: because of family values. To Pat Buchanan, men men go 979 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,239 Speaker 1: to work and women stay home. So I guess what 980 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: I would say to that is, you know, that's just 981 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: not the reality that we live in anymore. Wages have 982 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,400 Speaker 1: stagnated since the nineteen seventies, So if you want to 983 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: still have the same standard of living, you know, you 984 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,839 Speaker 1: do need to earners, and if you don't want to earners, well, 985 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,160 Speaker 1: then you need to do something about wages, because you know, 986 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 1: that's beyond a family's ability to control um. And the 987 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,560 Speaker 1: other thing is, I guess I would argue, you know what, 988 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,359 Speaker 1: if you make flexible work the default, then somebody could 989 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,880 Speaker 1: be home, you know, at least sometimes for cake and 990 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,200 Speaker 1: piet three in the afternoon. So I guess my argument is, 991 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: can't we get to that same spot where we really 992 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 1: value family time, where we really value um, you know, 993 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: the time that we that we have, you know, with 994 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: others that we love. Can we get there in a 995 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: way that doesn't require like half the workforce to stay 996 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,680 Speaker 1: home and and not be able to you know, contribute 997 00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: to in the public sphere and add our knowledge and 998 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: ideas to the economy. Or can we or can we 999 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: figure out how to change workplaces such that, you know, 1000 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: if you do want to take out a few years 1001 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,359 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it's not so difficult to get back 1002 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,200 Speaker 1: in and get back on a career track. You know, 1003 00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,920 Speaker 1: Can we figure out how to change the way we 1004 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,680 Speaker 1: work and our workforce culture to really match what people 1005 00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 1: really want in the way we live our lives. Can 1006 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,160 Speaker 1: we figure out how to do good, excellent work and 1007 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,799 Speaker 1: still have time for all of the all the things 1008 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,439 Speaker 1: that make life worth living. And I think we can. 1009 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: There are other people who've done it. We just have 1010 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,359 Speaker 1: to start. So bridget I'm a US voter and I'm 1011 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: piste off about this issue. What can I do? How 1012 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: do I make this happen? I got to talk about it, 1013 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,799 Speaker 1: you know, Um, make sure that your lawmakers know that 1014 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,879 Speaker 1: this is something that you care about. Have your voice heard, 1015 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: Do they have a plan, do they have a position 1016 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 1: on it? You know, a lot of times these these 1017 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: issues don't rise us to the top because people sort 1018 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,160 Speaker 1: of feel hopeless. Oh, childcare be so expensive, it's such 1019 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: a big deal. We can't do it. Well, you know what, 1020 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,799 Speaker 1: We're never going to figure out how to do it 1021 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,440 Speaker 1: if we don't start asking, if we don't start making noise. So, 1022 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,520 Speaker 1: if I'm a voter, find uh, you know, first and foremost, 1023 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,920 Speaker 1: find candidates who support your views and are you know, 1024 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 1: and we'll make these you know, are and are committed 1025 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:59,120 Speaker 1: to finding answers and solutions. Vote for them. Get out there, 1026 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 1: you know, m go knock on doors, donate money, you know, 1027 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: make this, use the system, make the system work, and 1028 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: then you know, if your candidate has not, you know, 1029 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: maybe it's not your your ideal candidate. We'll get out 1030 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: there and make sure that you know your constituent, your 1031 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 1: your voice heard right right to your member of congress um. 1032 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,880 Speaker 1: You know, start locally there there can be local solutions 1033 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: that then can be scaled. Let people know about it, 1034 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,920 Speaker 1: make noise. You don't, don't just sort of suffer in silence, 1035 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of pain out there. And what 1036 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,799 Speaker 1: I found when I was writing my book is I 1037 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,239 Speaker 1: thought that I was completely alone and that everybody else 1038 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: was fine. And it was really only in writing the 1039 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,760 Speaker 1: book that I realized everybody's not fine and we're all 1040 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,000 Speaker 1: in pain. It's just that nobody believes that things can change, 1041 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,040 Speaker 1: so that there's been a real hopelessness and sort of like, oh, well, 1042 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,560 Speaker 1: what use is it? Why bother talking about it? And 1043 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,280 Speaker 1: we need to start talking about it and keep talking 1044 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: about it. And that's a lot of what we're doing 1045 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 1: here at the Better Life Lab. We just we've got 1046 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,680 Speaker 1: our new media partnership with Slate. We've got the Better 1047 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: Life Lab channel on Slate, and that's part of our 1048 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: Our goal is to just have a steady stream of 1049 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: high quality stories and data and essays to just completely 1050 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,800 Speaker 1: keep hammering this issue that our world needs to change 1051 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,440 Speaker 1: and it's not impossible, and let's get together and do this. 1052 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: And we are so grateful for your work and your 1053 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,880 Speaker 1: leadership on that front. Obviously, the last time you and 1054 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: I sat down, Bridget, we were talking about a very 1055 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 1: different prospective future pre election two thousand sixteen. And I 1056 00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 1: think all the things you just mentioned of making your 1057 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,720 Speaker 1: voice heard, writing letters to your elected officials, knocking doors, 1058 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: making phone calls are clearly things that we didn't do 1059 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,319 Speaker 1: enough of this past go round, or at least the 1060 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,160 Speaker 1: Electoral College really screwed us on that front. The leadership 1061 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,160 Speaker 1: of New America and giving us and arming us with 1062 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: the tools to make our voices her cannot be understated. 1063 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,680 Speaker 1: And campaigns and coalitions that have been coming together around this, 1064 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,799 Speaker 1: like the Make It Work campaign, I thought was a 1065 00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: really interesting UM leader in the space of advocating for 1066 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:18,520 Speaker 1: family solutions or work life solutions that would benefit all 1067 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,759 Speaker 1: of us, including single, childless, unmarried women like Bridget and 1068 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,799 Speaker 1: I hear um that I would love to see us 1069 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,279 Speaker 1: all pounding the pavement a lot more, whether it's on 1070 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,359 Speaker 1: the state level and the local level or on the 1071 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:37,560 Speaker 1: federal level moving forward, So where can our listeners catch 1072 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: up with you, Bridget Hilty and follow the great work 1073 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,920 Speaker 1: that you're leading at the Better Life Lab. Well, that 1074 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 1: would be awesome because part of what we are really 1075 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,240 Speaker 1: trying to do is network with other people, like minded people, 1076 00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,880 Speaker 1: and you know, by banding together, we're all stronger. So 1077 00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:59,640 Speaker 1: we are all about making connections and um people can 1078 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,440 Speaker 1: find us on the web where we've got a lot 1079 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,920 Speaker 1: of tools uh um at the New America website, you 1080 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: can look for the Better Life Lab. We've got a 1081 00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,399 Speaker 1: newsletter that comes out where we amplify not only our 1082 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,960 Speaker 1: work but other partner organizations and researchers and writers who 1083 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: are doing really great work trying to move the needle. 1084 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,360 Speaker 1: Because again we believe in amplifying other voices in addition 1085 00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: to ours. That we're all stronger um when we all 1086 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,000 Speaker 1: come together. UM. So we also, you know, we're on 1087 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,880 Speaker 1: social media. We've got a really cool new project called 1088 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 1: Mission Visible, where we've curated a list of fantastic um 1089 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 1: kind of a list of experts who are women and 1090 00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: people of people of color. And so every time there's 1091 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 1: an all male Panda. We've actually got race sources. It's 1092 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: like no excuse, come to Mission Visible and find your 1093 00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,160 Speaker 1: find find a diverse expert. So we're really trying to 1094 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: look for practical solutions as well. So there's Mission Visible 1095 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 1: out there. Um you know, we have events, UM, I 1096 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,720 Speaker 1: do a lot of speaking, and we now have the 1097 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: Better Life Lab channel and slate, So come there and 1098 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,440 Speaker 1: read our stories and um, you know, help us spread 1099 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 1: the world the world. The world needs to change, absolutely, 1100 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,920 Speaker 1: And if you haven't already, pick up your copy of 1101 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,240 Speaker 1: Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play and No one has the time, 1102 00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 1: Bridget's fantastic book. Clearly you have such expertise on this 1103 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: subject matter. We could talk with you all day about it. 1104 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:27,240 Speaker 1: So if you want more historical context, political context and 1105 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,960 Speaker 1: vivid picture of how we can get out of this 1106 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,000 Speaker 1: overwhelmed culture, and make sure to pick up Bridget's awesome book. 1107 00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,840 Speaker 1: Smithy listeners, we want to hear from you. What does 1108 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,320 Speaker 1: this mean to you? What would it look like to 1109 00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:46,040 Speaker 1: have an organization and a government that is bought in 1110 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:51,080 Speaker 1: on work life balance, that is aware of role conflict 1111 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: and how much it's hampering us all from achieving our 1112 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 1: full potential make sure to get in touch with us 1113 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,280 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast on Twitter, show us what roll 1114 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,280 Speaker 1: overload looks like for you on Instagram at stuff mom 1115 00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 1: Never Told You, And as always, we love getting your 1116 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,919 Speaker 1: listener mail at mom stuff at how stuff works dot 1117 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: com