WEBVTT - Sara Bareilles doesn’t care if you think she’s sensitive 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.120 What do you do when life doesn't go according to 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:09.719 plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.080 or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.720 is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.560 by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.800 with a guest to talk about the times they were 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.880 knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:33.080 Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:38.320 are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.800 every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.640 answers one question, now what. 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.760 I've played hundreds of shows before I had any kind 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:55.760 of profession, all your own materials. Yeah, I mean I 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.440 started my very first gig. I played I Will Survive 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.200 with a drum machine on my keyboard, and I don't 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.720 even think I could really even play the chords properly. 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:09.160 I think I just just banking on the charm of that. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:15.640 But you certainly have you learn you learn the way? Yeah, 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:20.360 but yeah, I think you know. I pursued music not 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.080 really as a choice, but it just always felt like 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:24.360 my calling. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.560 My guest today has the voice of an angel, Sarah 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.600 Brellis is a singer, songwriter, actress, and author. She's dazzled 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.000 audiences on Broadway and shows like Waitress and Into the Woods. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.720 She stars in Peacock's hilarious Girls, five Eva and In 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.360 Case That's Not Enough. She's also sold millions of albums 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.320 and won multiple Grammys. I love learning more about her 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.560 origin story and think it's badass how hard she has 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.120 fought to keep her voice and career authentic to who 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.640 she is. I truly don't know another or more quite 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:10.560 like her. So here is Sarah Burrells. Sarah Burrellis. Let's 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:12.440 just jump right in, and I want to say thank 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.400 you so much for coming on the show. I was 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.200 just so honored when I heard that you were open 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.440 to it and wanted to come on. So just thank you. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:27.160 I've been a fan for an incredibly long time and 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:29.160 I appreciate your time. 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:32.480 Thank you right back, Atcha, I adore you. I'm so 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.560 happy to be talking and sorry for I'm having terrible allergies, 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.760 so I sound like I have a cold, but Galin. 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.280 It's the absolute worst. We were just talking about that. Now. 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:42.920 You know. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.600 It's funny because sometimes I almost wish that I didn't 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.720 do any research just because I like to just have 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.760 like a girlfriend conversation. But one of the things that 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:59.600 is so striking to me is the versatility of your talent, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:06.280 versatility of your career, the longevity of it, and how 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:12.000 how you're still able to maintain this. It's almost like 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:16.720 an anonymity. And I mean that in the best possible 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.000 I mean it is a huge compliment. 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:22.360 Yes, no, it's I can actually really live a very 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.480 normal life. I really I would not wish fame, like 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.040 real fame, like the kind of fame you have on 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.360 my worst enemy. And I hope that doesn't count terrible, 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.440 but it does. The same is the worst byproduct of 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.880 getting to be an extraordinary artist, Like I think it's 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:45.520 the it's so toxic and it's so distorting, and I 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.360 think I'm I'm actually just literally a little too boring. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.720 I think the press is not that like I'm just 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.120 not doing anything that's that interesting. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:04:00.000 So yeah, oh god, I don't agree, but I will 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.280 say that, especially now, I mean social media, it's like 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.040 that just was one of the worst things that could 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.840 have ever happened to me. Yeah, just because it was 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:13.640 there was no escape whatsoever. And even in say in 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:15.520 thinking that I was going to say this to you. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.640 I thought, God, it's we live in such a different time. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:20.040 You know. 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.159 Now if you ask younger people, you know, what do 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:24.960 you want? They say, I want to be famous. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:25.200 You know. 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.760 People don't say I want to do this, or I 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.120 have this vocation or practice that a part of my 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.880 creative my creativity or and it's such a different cultural shift. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.919 I really feel like my fancy will tell you, like, 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.720 I don't have a poker face, like I don't and 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.599 this is a blessing and a curse, but I really 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.919 don't have another speed like It's just it's what you 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:54.320 see is what you get. The sort of authentic barebones 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.679 route was sort of the only road for me to walk, 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.480 I think, and survive. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:01.400 What were you like as a little girl? 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:10.920 I was, I think, very awkward and precocious. And I've 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.480 always been someone who is like very honest, not always 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.719 have the most tact like honesty first, even if it's 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.960 I had to learn tact much later in my life. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.560 But always very tenderhearted, really sensitive, always be very sensitive, 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.159 so get my feelings very easily. And I really love 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.120 people and I love I always refer to it as 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:40.080 emotional architecture. It's like the way we the way our 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.360 Psyche's workers I find to just be endlessly fascinating. 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.159 Those are qualities, though, that don't make it very easy 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:52.839 to survive in this industry. You know, I think it's 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:54.839 painful to feel so much. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.960 I totally agree, But I do think, at least for me, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.000 especially in this decade of my life, I have come 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.760 to appreciate that tenderness so much, and the fact that 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.320 I was able to pursue this in some ways in 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:15.680 spite of that tenderness, because I think we need people 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:22.599 in positions like ours who are empathic and empathetic and 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.000 compassionate people. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:27.200 And you're originally from California. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.039 Yes, northern California, a little tiny town called Eureka, but yeah, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:35.440 it's very rural and big, beautiful redwood for old growth 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.000 redwood forests, and it's right on the ocean. It's an 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:42.640 absolutely extraordinarily beautiful part of the state. And I loved 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.520 to bring up in California, and my upbringing was wonderful, 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.680 lots of time outside, lots of music. I was the 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.040 youngest of three, so I was outside talking to myself 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:54.800 a lot, with a big imagination. 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.159 Did you now, your parents got divorced when you were 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:00.919 quite young. 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.520 Or yeah, like twelve, twelve years old, divorced and remarried. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.679 Tough time. But I will say they are like best 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.120 friends now both, so it's very It is so normal 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.360 for my mom and dad and their spouses to be 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.320 having dinner together. They do it all the time. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.120 That's incredibly healthy. And yes, because that must have been 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.720 a difficult time as a twelve year old because your 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.400 siblings were already out of the house by then or 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.720 it just left, so you are sort of like an 0:07:31.760 --> 0:07:33.560 only child going through divorce. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.280 Yes, when I've talked about it in therapy many times 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.440 over the years, because it sort of feels like that 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.120 thing if you come from a broken home, which seems 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.720 melo dramatic to say it that way, but which so 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.360 many people do you feel like, I don't know, I'm 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:49.240 forty three now I should be over the fact that 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:52.640 my parents got divorced. But it really does make an 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.960 impression upon you. It's your whole worldview, and when there's 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.680 a fissure there, it's hard to heal that. I just 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.120 didn't see it coming at all. There was no it 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:04.640 was not an angry household at all. It was just 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.240 it was just sort of like time to go. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.120 Who did you turn to with that age? Like who 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.080 are the people in your life that you could rely 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:13.640 on at that age to process it? 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.960 I think it really was when I started really processing 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:22.400 through journaling and writing and songs and going inward. I 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:27.600 wasn't very verbal with my emotions, which I think is 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.640 something that I had to learn the vocabulary about the 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.839 way I was feeling. But I didn't come to that 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.000 till much later in my life, and I would have. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.520 I think I would have really thrived in a deeper 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.640 way had I had those tools earlier. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.559 Did you take piano, like piano lessons or singing lessons, 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.319 or have another creative life that you felt was a respite. 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.959 I did play a lot of piano. I took piano 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.640 lessons when I was really young, like nine, and I 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.000 didn't like them very much, and so I stopped. But 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:59.800 I never fell out of love with the piano. I 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.160 said wanted to play piano all the time. And I 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.720 would come home from school and play for hours and 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:08.600 write little songs, and I sang in choirs and did 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.240 community theater. I loved being on stage. Theater is really 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:17.080 the first place where I felt wholly myself. I kind 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.600 of got bullied in school, so school was always a 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:26.240 little tricky for me, and theater was such a safe space. 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.600 But that's what art really should be, you know, And 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.600 if you can't connect with it, how are you going 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.800 to be able to provide that outlet for someone else? 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.320 And when you went to UCLA, did your world shift 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:40.440 in a more positive way sort of socially? 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:44.040 It did, And I mean I loved it. I loved going, 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.080 I loved the independence of college. But it was really 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.720 a culture shock. I never I remember going to LA 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.840 for the first time. I accepted UCLA sight unseen. I 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.679 just I couldn't even believe I got into that school. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.360 And I wasn't going to go because we didn't We 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.199 didn't have a lot of money and it was expensive. 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.160 And I had an English teacher at the time, Missus Salter, 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.080 who said, you can't get into UCLA and not go 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.679 to UCLA. You have to go, like this is just 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.880 you have to go. And I got little scholarship and 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.960 I got financial aid and I made it to school. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:19.960 But I remember going to LA for the first time 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:25.720 and driving along the beaches and seeing lifeguards in red 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.319 bathing suits like they did on Baywatch, and I thought 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:35.280 my mind was just blown. It was so much the 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.320 beaches where I grew up are like you put on 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.520 your jeans and your sweatshirts and your boots and it's cold, 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.760 and I just didn't realize how small my world had been. 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:50.200 How do you have the balls to produce it, to 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.920 self produce your own album? And were you playing gigs 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:55.680 the whole time? 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.400 Yeah? I you know, I think of that time being 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:04.720 so sort of blindly courageous. We do things that to 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.520 me now sound insane, but at the time my sort 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.520 of naivete I just didn't know any better, so I 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.520 didn't know enough not to like just go for it. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.120 And I was in this amazing a cappella group. I 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.800 sang with these but we were a bunch of acapella nerds, 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.760 had the best time. It was like the first time 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.080 I felt like I found my people. And when I 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.479 think about it now, I'm I realize it's so theater adjacent. 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.120 It's like people who just love to collaborate and make 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:37.640 something together and they love singing together. And it's so 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:42.120 funny because it's so kind of deeply uncool and it's 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:43.000 just the coolest. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:44.960 At the same time, I think it's the coolest thing 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:49.200 ever to me too, hearing like singing at an arch 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.360 at Princeton where were the under those arches. It was 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:56.160 my freshman week. It was the I thought I had 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.800 died and gone to heaven just listening, you know. 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:03.280 It's just amazing. So I was a part of that group. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:07.760 And then I met my friend Gabriel Man, who produced 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.040 that very first record with me. You know, at that times, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.120 at that time in your life, you're sort of following 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.400 the breadcrumbs. You meet a producer, then you try working 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:18.040 with them, and then you meet someone through them, and 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.280 you know, someone whose uncle runs a club, and you like, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.000 can I play at your club? And somebody sees you there. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.040 You know, just it was very much one foot in 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:27.640 front of the other. 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.160 Did you have a manager or an ager and anything 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:31.520 like that or not that early on? 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.920 I played. I played hundreds of shows before I had 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:36.679 any kind of profession. 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:38.120 All your own material, Yeah. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:41.000 I mean I started my very first gig. I played 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.360 I Will Survive with the drum machine on my keyboard, 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.640 and I don't even think I could really even play 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.000 the chords properly. I think I just was banking on 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:57.000 the charm of that. But you certainly have you learn, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.120 you learn the way. Yeah, but yeah, I think you know. 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.600 I pursued music not really as a choice, but it 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.200 just always felt like my calling. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:12.400 Did it help like with your confidence in self esteem? 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.360 It was the safest space for me. I mean, it 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.400 was the it was my refuge, it was the place 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:23.080 I went to feel the most connected spiritually. It's church, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:24.280 it's God, it's. 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:25.800 Is it approval as well? 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.360 I'm sure there's there's some of that. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.080 I mean self approval, not no, but I from the people. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.360 But I actually think it's both. It's like when you're 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:39.200 doing something that actually feels like in your soul, you 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.199 can feel that sense of alignment where it's like it's 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.400 not in question should I be doing this or not. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.480 It's just like I didn't need to ask someone else 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:52.040 that I felt so myself playing music. But it is 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.119 also the validation of you know, people on the outside 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.960 acknowledging why you have a real gift, or I heard 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.000 you once, I wanted to come back and see you again. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.760 And those are another set of breadcrumbs you follow. 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.120 And how does self doubt not creep back in. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.720 Oh honey, I got it. It's in my back pocket today. 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.880 It's always with I mean, I don't know, I'll mind 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:22.200 for you. I don't. I have stopped trying to omit 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:27.760 that sense from myself. I just it's not going to 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.160 go anywhere. I just have to like make peace with it. 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.600 I'm always going to doubt. When I did into the 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:34.760 Woods most recently, I'm just like, can I do this? 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.320 I put full meltdown just being like, I can't sing this, 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.800 I can't do this, I can't be on. I don't 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.120 know what I'm doing and got thrown in the deep end. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.080 Everybody else knows what they're doing. That just comes in 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.160 the suitcase of being a human, I think, And you 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.200 have to just do it anyway. You have to be 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.400 feel all that fear, feel all that insecurity, and the 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:56.440 only mistake is if you let it keep you from 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.000 doing the thing you really want to be doing. And 0:14:58.120 --> 0:14:58.800 I think. 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.840 I'm interested in how you got your start at Epic Records. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:13.320 How did that happen? They saw you were approached to. 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.280 Yeah, I had started working with my manager. He has 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.960 since passed away. His name is Jordan Feldstein, but he 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.800 also represented Maroon five at the time, and I went 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:24.720 to college with a couple of the band members from 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.080 Run five, so they've been my friends since college. And 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.120 they took me on tour and Jordan started representing me, 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.600 and over the next let's say year or so, I 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.800 played a lot of shows in LA and he set 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:42.520 up showcases for me with major record labels, and everybody passed. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.160 Nobody wanted to work with me. I don't think anyone 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:47.800 knew what to do with me. And then there was 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.880 a guy named Daniel Davis who worked at Epic Records 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.000 at the time, who brought out my A and R. 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.240 Guy who came and saw me at a show that 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.360 I didn't know anybody had come to see. So I 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.280 feel like he got to see myself in my at 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.800 my most expanded and my most natural. And so then yeah, 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.000 signed with Epic Records. So I'm still signed with Epic Records. 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.880 They've been an amazing partner. We've had a huge, long history. 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.680 It's like one of the crazy, rare, super positive stories 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.240 of a major label just being kind of an awesome partner. 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.120 And you mentioned early on and some of the articles 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.440 I read that they did at one point try to 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.320 sort of box you in How did you respond to 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.640 that and how did you get them to come along 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:38.880 with you on the what you wanted to do? 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:44.360 I think it was a combination of you know, the 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:49.240 song Love Song was written sort of as a pep 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:54.120 talk to myself because I could feel myself trying to 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:57.400 give them what I thought they wanted. What I knew 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.160 the record label was waiting for was a song that 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.640 they could go to radio with. And I felt like, 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:04.920 I have all these songs, Let me go into the studio, 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.120 let me make my record, And I wasn't really getting 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:07.760 the green light. 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:09.400 Does that mean more pop song? 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.360 Is that that pop song something that they could I'm 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.720 trying to remember the kinds of things that were on 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.159 the radio at that time. But I could just feel 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.760 that there was not enough excitement for like the material. 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.000 And I went to my music studio, which was a 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.800 storage unit that I shared with my friends in Raining 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:30.840 Jane and other band. So we had one of those 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:36.040 tincam like startine cam roll down garage doors with all 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.000 of our stuff stored in there. And I was there 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.280 and I wrote love song, and I wrote it kind 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.560 of just to myself. I was like, I said a 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.480 prayer I'm like, dear God, just let me remember me 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.480 in all of this. There was just so much noise 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:56.560 and so much feedback and so many opinions and love 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.359 song sort of poured out of me, and I was 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.439 convinced they would hate it, and they loved it, and 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:10.080 then to everyone's surprise, including myself, it was like a 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:10.600 big hit. 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.480 I mean, every single aspect of it just sounds like 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.520 it was meant to be. And thank God that they 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:20.960 for whatever reason that they liked it. Do you know 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:21.400 what I mean? 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.520 It, yes, totally in a. 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.280 Way does not matter. But you know, thank God, because 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.160 you don't hear stories like that, and you know, and 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.200 you talk about how sort of obliterating the process can be. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.040 How much rejection, Oh God, it's terrible. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.960 And now what you're doing, which I find really fascinating, 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.240 is you have a new show which is an audio 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:50.440 only singing competition chets, and it's called Breakthrough. Yes, can 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:52.520 you talk a little bit more about that? Because I 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.399 wish that there was a show like that that you 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:55.240 could have gone on. 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.560 A thousand percent. I mean, I wish there was a 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.960 show like that I could have listened to. This audible 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:06.440 came with this idea, myself and Kelly Rowland as mentors. 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.800 We even sort of shy away a little bit from 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.120 the word judge, because it really is like a mentorship 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:18.840 program for these handful of artists who are singer songwriters, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:24.960 and the entire podcast, as podcasts are generally, is done 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.640 with no visuals. So I met these contestants last night 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:35.200 when we recorded our final episode, so I finally saw 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.080 their faces after spending weeks and weeks and hours and 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.440 hours on the phone with them and talking through their 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:45.760 material and discussing their work and giving feedback. And I 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:50.960 love this format because it feels very nostalgic. It's the 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.960 way I used to listen to music with my headphones on. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.680 Reading the lyrics, I wasn't watching a screen, I wasn't 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.000 taking anything in. It was just about what is the 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:07.160 story I'm being told? And is emotion being conveyed through 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.480 the vocal performance, through the actual craft of the song. 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.359 Is there a moment that took your breath away? 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:18.560 Yes, there's a few moments. Actually, one of our artists, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:23.760 he's a Southern guy, works mostly in country music, and 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.520 he really kind of hit rock bottom going through this 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.840 process with us, and he talked about starting therapy and 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:35.640 starting to really do the work that he needed to do. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.160 And I found that to be so moving because it's 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.879 unusual for a guy in his position to sort of 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.199 admit that vulnerability and then to pour it into his work. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.760 So I was so moved by that was very emotional. Actually, 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:54.080 I mean, we're listening to these people who have in 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.840 some cases really given up on the dream that this 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:01.000 is even possible for them, and then finding another moment 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.160 where they feel like it's within their reach. It's really extraordinary, 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.320 and you really come to love them. They're really lovable people. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:21.000 I so appreciate your vulnerability, not just in music, but 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:24.120 in so many of the things that you do. You've 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.439 spoken about being bullied and feeling not good enough, feeling 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.879 insecure about your body. Yeah, all of these things that 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.280 I think are so much more common than people are 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.600 willing to admit, and I'm interested in how you've managed 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.760 those feelings. Have you come to love yourself more and 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:40.920 judge yourself less? 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:47.879 Yes, I have gotten closer to self acceptance. I usually 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.879 just feel, you know, I get into these very tight 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:56.600 spaces within my own mind, and the answer is never 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.359 to be tougher on yourself or more just a plan 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:07.199 or harder consequences. It's always compassion and tenderness. It's really 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.520 the thing that moves the needle. Can you just beat 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:14.679 a little bit more your own friend? Of course we fail, 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.800 and of course we come up short, but no need 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.159 to pour salt in the wound. Let's just say. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.720 It's funny how I'm so quick to do that for 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:24.560 other people. 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:27.119 Too, But always with ourselves. It's so hard, right. 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:31.160 Never with myself, I know. But music is such a deeply, 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:38.159 deeply personal it's so personal to you, and it really 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:43.600 is a safe place for you to speak your truth. 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:48.440 And I'm curious if there's something that you perhaps haven't 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.439 yet said through your music that you're hoping to. 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:58.480 Yeah, I think in the sense that you're always making 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:03.640 new discoveries about yourself and always getting to know yourself 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:07.240 a little bit better. There's certainly things that I feel 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:13.320 at forty three that I wasn't quite awake to in 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.400 my thirties or in my twenties. 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:19.200 Like what like an example of one of those things. 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:23.560 The Trump presidency was really, uh, just a game changer. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.359 And in some ways it sounds insane to say, but 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.399