Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This episode mentions violence against women
Speaker 1: and death There Are No Girls on the Internet as
Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, and this is there are No Girls on
Speaker 1: the Internet. So some of y'all might know that I
Speaker 1: am very interested in our national obsession with true crime content. Now,
Speaker 1: to be clear, I don't have any kind of big
Speaker 1: problem with true crime. You know, I've consumed true crime content,
Speaker 1: and it's not like I think that you're morally superior
Speaker 1: if you don't watch true crime. But I do think
Speaker 1: that we should be critical of the true crime that
Speaker 1: we consume because it can often be normalizing a whole
Speaker 1: lot of messed up stuff, racism, cappaganda, the works. And
Speaker 1: it can also not be particularly respectful to survivors, victims
Speaker 1: of violent crime, and their families. For instance, even though
Speaker 1: the new Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix series is careful to show
Speaker 1: the victim's point of view and also pretty clearly cast
Speaker 1: the racist, classist, homophobic criminal justice system as the real villains,
Speaker 1: you know, for letting Jeffrey Dahmer get away with his
Speaker 1: crimes even as his victims escaped and told police pretty
Speaker 1: clearly what was going on. So even while that might
Speaker 1: be a good thing, the families of the victims of
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmers say they were never consulted about the new
Speaker 1: show and that watching it actually retraumatized them, and people
Speaker 1: of color who worked on the series say it was
Speaker 1: a bad racist experience for them. Lifetime was similarly slammed
Speaker 1: for airing a film dramatization of the life and tragic
Speaker 1: death of Gabby Petito, who, in August one was killed
Speaker 1: by her fiance, Brian Landry while they were traveling together
Speaker 1: on a van life journey across the United States. Gabby
Speaker 1: Petito was only killed about a year ago, and already
Speaker 1: Time is putting together a movie about her tragic death,
Speaker 1: and it does raise questions about true crime and who
Speaker 1: gets to benefit from the stories and trauma and harm
Speaker 1: that real people experienced. Now this is personal to me.
Speaker 1: Someone I was close to was murdered by a serial killer,
Speaker 1: and I hated watching the ways that people who did
Speaker 1: not even know her capitalized off her story and death.
Speaker 1: But is it possible to make true crime content that
Speaker 1: is actually respectful of survivors and the victims of violent crime.
Speaker 1: Let's listen to this conversation that we had about it.
Speaker 1: Last year, when I was twenty one, a good friend
Speaker 1: of mine went missing. I'm not sure it's something I
Speaker 1: ever completely got over, and I still kind of think
Speaker 1: of my adult life as divided between before her disappearance
Speaker 1: and after her disappearance. That's how much the experience changed me.
Speaker 1: Watching my friend's story be picked apart on Nancy Grace's
Speaker 1: true crime television show was one of the most surreal
Speaker 1: experiences of my life. I just remember how foreign the
Speaker 1: person that she was describing seemed to me. I didn't
Speaker 1: recognize my cool, funny friend at all. By the time
Speaker 1: I found her body, I had stopped watching programming about
Speaker 1: her case altogether. I just couldn't keep listening to people
Speaker 1: trying to tell her story without her in it. This week,
Speaker 1: authorities found the remains of Gabby Potito, the twenty two
Speaker 1: year old woman who was documenting her travels to national
Speaker 1: parks with her fiancee in a van. Now this story
Speaker 1: is heartbreaking, and it also feels really familiar to me.
Speaker 1: Gabby's tragic story ignited social media. Now many people were
Speaker 1: just legitimately trying to get the word out about Gabby disappearance.
Speaker 1: But I was also really troubled by the kind of
Speaker 1: content that other folks on social media were making that
Speaker 1: included everything from baseless conspiracy theories two psychics claiming to
Speaker 1: have information about her whereabouts. Now, these weren't just random
Speaker 1: one off videos that maybe got a handful of views
Speaker 1: here or there. They were going viral on platforms like
Speaker 1: Twitter and TikTok, and I just really didn't like it.
Speaker 1: It felt like some people were gleefully picking apart this
Speaker 1: tragedy with no regard for whether or not it was
Speaker 1: actually helpful, ethical, or respectful. And I think that's because
Speaker 1: when it comes to the genre that we know as
Speaker 1: true crime, in the kind of online conversation that it sparks,
Speaker 1: it can be easy to forget that they're actual people
Speaker 1: and actual tragedies. So what happens when the darkest moments
Speaker 1: of a stranger's life are turned into content. Jessica Dean,
Speaker 1: also known as blood Bess and Beyond, has been making
Speaker 1: videos on TikTok about some of the less ethical aspects
Speaker 1: of the true crime community for months. You might remember
Speaker 1: her from our episode debunking viral myths around sex trafficking.
Speaker 1: Fed up with the ways that content creators talk about
Speaker 1: tragedy like it's a puzzle or just an interesting story.
Speaker 1: She's been using her platform to urge for more careful, respectful,
Speaker 1: and thoughtful conversations around crime. I want to say right
Speaker 1: up front that this is a tough conversation and I
Speaker 1: do not have all the answers. But I spoke to
Speaker 1: Jessica about what happens when true crime sparks of frenzy
Speaker 1: of internet sleuths and viral conspiracy theories, and now we
Speaker 1: can all work to create ethical conversations about crime that
Speaker 1: can lead to actual systemic change. So my name is
Speaker 1: Jessica Dean. I go by blood Bath and Beyond primarily
Speaker 1: on TikTok, which was my largest platform, and I've actually
Speaker 1: been on the podcast before. I'm excited to be back.
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you invited me back, and I
Speaker 1: guess today we're talking about true crime. Yes, we're so
Speaker 1: glad to have you back as a friend of the show,
Speaker 1: because I honestly can't think of a better person to
Speaker 1: help me unpack all of these feelings I've been having
Speaker 1: about true crime content. You know, I'm not really a
Speaker 1: big consumer of true crime content. Myself, and I know
Speaker 1: that you've been really vocal about some of the problems
Speaker 1: with the genre on TikTok, and I guess I just
Speaker 1: feel like it exploits a very real anxiety that women have,
Speaker 1: that tragedy is lurking around every corner. And I always
Speaker 1: really take issue with content that exploits and plays on
Speaker 1: our anxieties when it can also spark real world behavior
Speaker 1: like amplifying conspiracy theories or mobilizing internet sleuths who try
Speaker 1: to solve crimes without necessarily stopping to ask if it's
Speaker 1: actually a useful precedent. So, I guess my first question
Speaker 1: is what are your thoughts on all of this? What
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on true crime? And why do you
Speaker 1: make videos trying to amplify the ways that true crime
Speaker 1: can be really unethical? Yeah, so I think it's important,
Speaker 1: like right off the bat, to save myself, um, a
Speaker 1: little bit of headache later, um that I want to
Speaker 1: be clear that not all true crime content is the same,
Speaker 1: especially on TikTok. There are some creators of true crime
Speaker 1: content that I find make at least what I would
Speaker 1: consider more palatable and what I think is more genuine content. Um.
Speaker 1: But a lot of my videos I had made in
Speaker 1: the past were kind of hyper fixating and really shining
Speaker 1: a light on some of the rougher stuff that you
Speaker 1: can definitely find out there. Uh, and so like, with
Speaker 1: that out of the way, I think it's uh, probably
Speaker 1: important we talk about some of the more problematic popular
Speaker 1: stuff that definitely goes viral. I find things ranging from
Speaker 1: true crime accounts that are dedicated to like frosting cookies,
Speaker 1: Like I think they're a professional baker and they'll be
Speaker 1: frosting cookies while they talk about some poor woman that
Speaker 1: was brutally murdered by her boyfriend, and they kind of
Speaker 1: make it I don't want to say lighthearted, but it
Speaker 1: definitely has a very lighthearted atmosphere about it, like, oh,
Speaker 1: look at me decorating this cute little cookie of a puppy,
Speaker 1: and it feels to really take away from the seriousness
Speaker 1: of the situation. I've also found accounts that are dedicated to,
Speaker 1: uh somebody, you can find it on Amazon. Somebody published
Speaker 1: like a coloring book all dedicated to different types of
Speaker 1: serial killers. And I think they tried to advertise it
Speaker 1: as some sort of like educational material because I think
Speaker 1: it gives like a little blurb of each serial killer
Speaker 1: on every page, but it's also still a coloring book,
Speaker 1: so it feels a little morbid. And oftentimes these people
Speaker 1: who are making these videos, they'll have themselves talking over
Speaker 1: these videos, and the attitude about it just seems very off.
Speaker 1: They've got this very lighthearted, almost fun ha ha, crazy
Speaker 1: how this happened ten years ago kind of attitude about it.
Speaker 1: And it's always been driving me really crazy because is
Speaker 1: not to get into too many specifics about it, but
Speaker 1: as somebody who is actually pretty close to a very
Speaker 1: high profile case, if I saw somebody making content about
Speaker 1: that specific high profile case, I could not be disgusted.
Speaker 1: So I can't imagine that people who had an even
Speaker 1: closer connection to these high profile cases they're covering might
Speaker 1: come across this content and how they might react or
Speaker 1: how that might make them feel. And it's it's truly
Speaker 1: unfortunate because I often hear kind of as a reaction
Speaker 1: to that is like, oh, they wouldn't see it, Um, well,
Speaker 1: I saw. I've seen several videos related to the case
Speaker 1: that I have a connection to, and they don't make
Speaker 1: me feel great. And I think it's really important that
Speaker 1: we remember that, especially if a lot of true crime
Speaker 1: content creators will come at with an attitude of respecting
Speaker 1: the victims and trying to bring awareness to situations, especially
Speaker 1: if they're potentially ongoing. But that's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: that's a hard pill of swallow when you also look
Speaker 1: at their content. You're like, if I were the person
Speaker 1: affected by the situation, I would not feel comfortable with
Speaker 1: how your cover, the attitude you have, or just the
Speaker 1: atmosphere of the content in general. So that was the
Speaker 1: big driving factor for me to highlight some of the
Speaker 1: more nefarious parts of the true crime community. And I
Speaker 1: always want to make sure that people understand that, like
Speaker 1: I said, not all true kind all, not all true
Speaker 1: crime content is the same, and it's really important that
Speaker 1: we help uplift the content that is more ethical and
Speaker 1: is speaking more politely about it. But one of the
Speaker 1: biggest factors in that is highlighting, though, but the worst
Speaker 1: parts and the kind of instances we want to be
Speaker 1: avoiding absolutely, you know, and I'm so glad that you
Speaker 1: brought that up. You know, I think that it's so
Speaker 1: important for people to remember that you're talking about actual
Speaker 1: people and like their trauma and the and like their
Speaker 1: community members who are left behind to like pick up
Speaker 1: the pieces. And you know, I think I think there
Speaker 1: was like a really frankly tasteless shirt or something about
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, and I think it was your TikTok where
Speaker 1: it was like that wasn't that long ago, you know,
Speaker 1: his the family members of his victims are very much
Speaker 1: still alive, and like you think they don't have social media.
Speaker 1: You think that it's so far fetched that they would see,
Speaker 1: you know, tasteless, crass shirts that people are selling with
Speaker 1: like cute see little slogans on them. I think it
Speaker 1: can be. I think when I see true crime content
Speaker 1: that clearly does not take into effect the account that
Speaker 1: you're talking about real people who, some of whom can
Speaker 1: you know as yourself, as you just said, like, we'll
Speaker 1: see the way that you're talking about their loved ones
Speaker 1: who were no longer here and like the worst most
Speaker 1: dark parts of their experiences and just sort of being
Speaker 1: so callous about that really doesn't sit well with me. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: That was kind of my tipping point, and uh, not
Speaker 1: to like get too much of my own personal life,
Speaker 1: but the reason that the Jeffrey Dahmer shirt really stuck
Speaker 1: out to me is because I actually currently live in
Speaker 1: Milwaukee and the Jeffrey Dammer was from Milwaukee, So I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was the proximity to the crime
Speaker 1: that kind of made me feel this way, but seeing
Speaker 1: shirts that made a very lewd, sexual and very humorous
Speaker 1: jokes about it, I was like, why, why one are
Speaker 1: you comfortable selling this? Like the excuse of oh, it's
Speaker 1: just dark humor, learn to take a joke can only
Speaker 1: carry you so far, and you can sell that shirt.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop you, um, but I am
Speaker 1: going to remind you that these people were human things
Speaker 1: and that Jeffrey Dahmer predominantly targeted gay black men and
Speaker 1: he killed and sexually violently sexually assaulted children. UM. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna remind you of that, and you kind of have
Speaker 1: to live with how that makes you feel, because that's
Speaker 1: just reality. And I think that helps snap a lot
Speaker 1: of people back into like, oh, this might not have
Speaker 1: been great, but there are people who are inevitably going
Speaker 1: to just use that it's dark humor get over at
Speaker 1: excuse regardless, and we just kind of have to live
Speaker 1: with that. But I mean, if reminding people helps, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be upset by it. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: how would you if you were wearing happen to be
Speaker 1: wearing one of those like awful tasteless shirts making like
Speaker 1: making a joke about Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes. Imagine like bumping
Speaker 1: into one like a family member of one of the victims,
Speaker 1: like you better be Like like would I wonder if
Speaker 1: people would be, how they would feel about explaining it's
Speaker 1: just a joke because this dark humor to their face
Speaker 1: that they actually came in contact with these folks. I
Speaker 1: think that like perhaps it can feel like you're so
Speaker 1: removed from these people, like they don't even necessarily seem
Speaker 1: like real people whose feelings or whose perspectives you even
Speaker 1: need to take into account. It really just rombs me
Speaker 1: the wrong way. Yeah, there was actually a I believe
Speaker 1: it was a bar. I don't want to say it
Speaker 1: was a restaurant. I think it was just a bar
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee that Um, it's a really historical building. It's
Speaker 1: very iconic, and they actually gotten a lot of controversy
Speaker 1: a few years ago. Uh, they were running like a
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer cannibal themed tour in the city of Milwaukee,
Speaker 1: and somebody had mapped out that they were only maybe
Speaker 1: like three or four miles away from uh Dahmer's old apartment.
Speaker 1: It since been demolished, but they were like a stone's
Speaker 1: throw away from it. And it took so much public
Speaker 1: pressure to be like, the family members are still in
Speaker 1: this city. They probably drive past your bar. Why would
Speaker 1: you do this? And the amount of public pressure it
Speaker 1: took us pretty sad, but eventually they caved, and it
Speaker 1: kind of really helped the city Milwaukee reel back and
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, maybe we shouldn't have Jeffrey Dahmer themed
Speaker 1: food and drink and tours and make all these board
Speaker 1: games and all these things like it really helped kind
Speaker 1: of put that into perspective. So I hate when you
Speaker 1: kind of have to land best or you have to
Speaker 1: put one figure on a like on a pike, to
Speaker 1: be like, look at this terrible thing, because like this
Speaker 1: is a business. I still I don't want these people
Speaker 1: to go jobless. But in an instance like that, sometimes
Speaker 1: it does take publicly shaming one large group of people
Speaker 1: to get the rest of the people to realize like, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe this isn't cool. So that's so interesting. I mean
Speaker 1: I want to I wanna switch gears a bit and
Speaker 1: talk a bit about the case that I feel like
Speaker 1: is really really just taking off on TikTok um, that
Speaker 1: tragic situation happening with Gabby Potito. Um by the time
Speaker 1: this comes out, you know, I know, the last update
Speaker 1: that I saw was that uh, they had found remains
Speaker 1: and they were consistent with her, but it wasn't wasn't
Speaker 1: clear if it was or not. Um. I I want
Speaker 1: to say up right off the top of the the
Speaker 1: conversation that you know, what happened to her is a tragedy.
Speaker 1: I I you know, I don't know the specifics of
Speaker 1: what has happened, but you know, it's tragic and horrifying,
Speaker 1: and like my heart goes out to her family, into
Speaker 1: her community, and I guess I wonder, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've seen them to all of these very it
Speaker 1: almost seems like every time there was a new update,
Speaker 1: I was seeing new TikTok's on my for you page.
Speaker 1: Some of them were just sort of like by the book,
Speaker 1: like here's what's going on, you know, just like news update,
Speaker 1: and like I didn't really have a problem with those,
Speaker 1: but then I would see these other videos that almost
Speaker 1: seemed kind of gleeful or like excited. I can't even
Speaker 1: really describe it. It would be like you would think
Speaker 1: they were talking about like a new episode of a
Speaker 1: show they like, but they're actually talking about like the
Speaker 1: like disappearance of a young woman who is a real person.
Speaker 1: And I can't really explain the why. I just like, really,
Speaker 1: I was surprised to see this, and I was surprised
Speaker 1: to see how much it took hold. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than you, so I remember when
Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway went missing. I was in college, and it
Speaker 1: was like the around the clock coverage of her disappearance.
Speaker 1: People were like, oh, well, it's because she is a
Speaker 1: like pretty white girl. And you know, there are so
Speaker 1: many different, you know, indigenous black and brown women who
Speaker 1: have gone missing in the same area that certainly have
Speaker 1: not gotten the same level of of, you know, attention
Speaker 1: that this case has gotten. And that's not to take
Speaker 1: away from the fact that I'm happy that people are,
Speaker 1: you know, really motivated to find her and that they're
Speaker 1: that they're like they're talking about her case. But I
Speaker 1: can't help but wonder, like, is there a way that
Speaker 1: people can talk about this situation that just is it
Speaker 1: seems kind of ghoulish to me. Absolutely, You're you're hitting
Speaker 1: out all the all of the points that I've been
Speaker 1: trying to get across on my TikTok. So, like you said,
Speaker 1: just to make sure that we're all clear, Like, we
Speaker 1: are very happy that Gabby was able to get the
Speaker 1: social media attention that she did get. And I think
Speaker 1: it can high to an extent, it can highlight the
Speaker 1: power of social media because there were so many posts
Speaker 1: out there being like, hey, there's young girl is missing.
Speaker 1: Here is her name, here is her face, here's a
Speaker 1: couple of identifying markers, and this is where she was
Speaker 1: last seen. That's such critical information, especially if you're in
Speaker 1: that area. This is a little bit more unique because
Speaker 1: it kind of had like a transnational like it was
Speaker 1: two dates very far away from each other. But especially
Speaker 1: if you're local, that can be really useful. Somebody who
Speaker 1: happens to see a TikTok about this girl, who happens
Speaker 1: to see a piece of critical evidence like how we
Speaker 1: actually experienced with this case. That's so crucial and it's
Speaker 1: so important. I never want to downplay how important that is.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it has this is such
Speaker 1: an intense boomerang effect that starts to come back around.
Speaker 1: And we did see so many videos of people with
Speaker 1: just outright the wrong attitude, very like you said, gleeful,
Speaker 1: almost getty, very excited whenever they could be the first
Speaker 1: one to break the next piece of information, which was
Speaker 1: usually just purely speculation with nothing to back it up.
Speaker 1: And it I don't know how to work on a say, uh,
Speaker 1: it's it's frustrating to see that kind of content because
Speaker 1: you're always going to have that on the Internet, no
Speaker 1: matter what you're talking about. There's always going to be
Speaker 1: people when you have the entire world that your fingers,
Speaker 1: who take things the wrong way. But these videos were
Speaker 1: going viral, and I think that's one of the biggest
Speaker 1: criticisms I've got, and one of the biggest pieces of
Speaker 1: backlash I've got is why are you fixating on these
Speaker 1: total rando crazies who have no followers And that's not
Speaker 1: the case. I'm highlighting videos that have had hundreds of thousands,
Speaker 1: if not millions of views, Yet somehow it seems like
Speaker 1: nobody's calling out the tone, and I think it really
Speaker 1: speaks to the larger point of TikTok is a platform
Speaker 1: you can go viral on very easily. It is very
Speaker 1: easy to make content. The bar for entry is set
Speaker 1: incredibly low, and so you have people who are by
Speaker 1: far far from professional journalists making this kind of content.
Speaker 1: But then at the end of the day they want
Speaker 1: to be put in the same category as journalists, and
Speaker 1: they're like, I'm just breaking the news, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to spread awareness. Be like, Okay, now you're starting to
Speaker 1: march in this territory of professional journalism, yet you're not
Speaker 1: holding yourself and nobody's holding you too remotely what we
Speaker 1: could could be considered journalistic standards. And like any journalist
Speaker 1: who puts out a story that's asolutely crest and inappropriate,
Speaker 1: they're going to receive backlash. If these TikTokers want to
Speaker 1: be held in the same regard, they should were prepared
Speaker 1: for the same exact backlash. Yeah. I saw one of
Speaker 1: the videos where, um, somebody was referencing l Woods. You
Speaker 1: know that scene at the end of Legally Blonde, where
Speaker 1: l is able to be like, oh, because of her
Speaker 1: her perm, she couldn't have been in the shower because
Speaker 1: her curls are intact. And it was in reference to
Speaker 1: a Instagram picture of Gabby with blonde hair, with like
Speaker 1: her her roots had been done so her roots were
Speaker 1: not dark. And again I think that referencing I love
Speaker 1: legally blonde, I think like referencing yourself as an L
Speaker 1: Woods type or any reference to that to like a
Speaker 1: comedy when we're talking about missing person, I think it's
Speaker 1: just not good. It's just it's just been bad taste,
Speaker 1: you know exactly. And I think, like I remember back
Speaker 1: during the Boston bombing. At that time, I was like
Speaker 1: very active on Reddit, and redditors were so convinced they
Speaker 1: had found they had like solved the boss the Boston bombing. Uh.
Speaker 1: They thought it was this guy who had gone who
Speaker 1: had gone missing as family was looking for him and
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, the pictures are the same, and
Speaker 1: it turns out it was not true. Like it was
Speaker 1: just they got the wrong guy. This family who was
Speaker 1: already suffering from their you know, their family member being missing,
Speaker 1: had to go through this process of being like, he's
Speaker 1: not the Boston bomber. He is missing, but he's not
Speaker 1: the Boston bomber. And it was just a case of
Speaker 1: like they got the wrong person. They they you know,
Speaker 1: Internet slew. This just didn't know what they were doing,
Speaker 1: and so part of me, I mean, this is where
Speaker 1: it gets kind of complicated, and I don't necessarily have
Speaker 1: this is just my opinion, and I don't necessarily have
Speaker 1: the like right answer. I'm just I just have a
Speaker 1: lot of questions. I saw on Twitter or someone saying like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: there's too much emphasis on some of the unsavory aspects
Speaker 1: of the true crime TikTok community. But they're over there.
Speaker 1: They're glossing over the fact that like gen z TikTok
Speaker 1: or like young women and girls broke this case open
Speaker 1: and you know that, you know, they really cracked this case.
Speaker 1: And part of me is thinking, like, hey, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if that's true. B When you glorify internet sleuths,
Speaker 1: you also have to take into account that internet sleuths
Speaker 1: have like ruined people's lives, got the wrong person, you know,
Speaker 1: just gotten it wrong because they're not actual you know, investigators.
Speaker 1: There's people on on on social media or on the internet.
Speaker 1: And I also, I mean, I don't know how I
Speaker 1: how I felt about that that she she basically said
Speaker 1: that the reason why people are being so hard on
Speaker 1: these TikTokers is because they're mostly women. Young women and girls,
Speaker 1: and that we don't like young women and girls, and
Speaker 1: so it's just sexist. And I thought it was an
Speaker 1: interesting sort of Devil's advocate position and that I was
Speaker 1: not sure I agree. I just think that, like, it's unsavory,
Speaker 1: and I don't find it unsavory because it's women and
Speaker 1: girls doing it. I find it unsavory because it's not
Speaker 1: a good thing to be doing. I guess that was
Speaker 1: a pretty big reaction that I've been seeing online. Is
Speaker 1: TikTok cracked this case. These internet sleuths were the one
Speaker 1: who once who did it. It It had a very similar
Speaker 1: air to I hate to be referencing a Netflix show
Speaker 1: in this specific situation, but it's terrifyingly accurate. Is the
Speaker 1: show Don't Funk with Cats. It was this case of
Speaker 1: this woman who had zero experience, had no idea really
Speaker 1: what she was doing, but fell down this rabbit hole
Speaker 1: and ended up actually solving a very complicated, pretty much
Speaker 1: dead end series of murders. And that was very impressive.
Speaker 1: And it's kind of scary because even that woman has
Speaker 1: come out and said, like, hey, this was purely coincidental.
Speaker 1: Please don't try to mimic what I was doing like
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. I could have
Speaker 1: gotten really hurt. I could have accused the wrong person.
Speaker 1: This just happened to work out perfectly. And so it's
Speaker 1: really frustrating to see the people on TikTok who are
Speaker 1: now I don't want to say, taking credit, but are
Speaker 1: definitely patting themselves on the back for having cracked this case,
Speaker 1: in which, as far as I understand, at least when
Speaker 1: we're recording right now, what the case was is that
Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence they received help find this
Speaker 1: poor girl's remains a few days ago, just yesterday. Wow,
Speaker 1: time is time is weird? I was just yesterday that
Speaker 1: she it. There was some like van life YouTubers who
Speaker 1: made very similar content to Gabby, who had seen all
Speaker 1: these stories online about how Gabby was missing, and then
Speaker 1: realized they happened to be in the same National Park
Speaker 1: as her roughly the same time, and they had a
Speaker 1: bunch of unedited raw footage from their trip that they
Speaker 1: were going to put up on YouTube. So they scrubbed
Speaker 1: through all this unedited footage and realized that they actually
Speaker 1: found like a clear shot of what was Gabby's van,
Speaker 1: and they sent that to the BI they had posted
Speaker 1: online about it too. The FBI followed up on that,
Speaker 1: went back to the same exact spot, and that's how
Speaker 1: they ended up finding her remains. So that's one of
Speaker 1: those instances of like the the story being on social
Speaker 1: media and blowing up as big as it did, truly
Speaker 1: did help in that specific instance at least bring that
Speaker 1: tip to the proper authorities who were then able to
Speaker 1: look into it and identify what it actually happened. But
Speaker 1: there's that doesn't negate the insane amount of problems that
Speaker 1: come with those same exact internet salutes. And it's truly
Speaker 1: frustrating to see the same people that two days ago
Speaker 1: were conspiring that Gabby was actually a serial killer um
Speaker 1: and that she was murdering other people and is now
Speaker 1: on the run, or another conspiracy I had seen is
Speaker 1: that she was just doing it all for attention, are
Speaker 1: now very quick to jump in the pool of people
Speaker 1: who magically cracked this case. And that's so ungodly frustrating
Speaker 1: I cannot put into word. It's how angry that makes
Speaker 1: me that the same exact people who were claiming she
Speaker 1: was doing it for attention are ready to say that
Speaker 1: they're the ones who found her remains. That's I mean,
Speaker 1: I can only imagine how frustrating that is. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the shortlist of completely baseless conspiracy theories. I saw people
Speaker 1: saying on TikTok doing it for attention, she was killing
Speaker 1: people her I guess fiance or partner had to be
Speaker 1: guilty because he liked fight club. Another serial killer who
Speaker 1: another serial killer might have been responsible. Like, I don't
Speaker 1: know that there's any kind of like link. Everybody's like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's another you know, another couple was murdered around there.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's the same person. You know. Just I
Speaker 1: feel like when you traffic in just like baseless conjecture
Speaker 1: to then be doing a bit of a victory laps,
Speaker 1: it just seems very incongruous to me, Like I've I've
Speaker 1: seen the same thing that you're taking thing about where
Speaker 1: people are now kind of like I don't want to
Speaker 1: say taking credit, but really being like wow, my videos
Speaker 1: just wildly speculating they really helped, And I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if that's the right takeaway here exactly. There's
Speaker 1: I don't want to name drop anybody on a podcast
Speaker 1: because I don't want this person receiving a ton of hate.
Speaker 1: But there was one individual on TikTok who had made
Speaker 1: um over forty videos about Gabby in less than six
Speaker 1: days and was very quick to uh boost any of
Speaker 1: these random theories anytime through anybody through speculation her way,
Speaker 1: she would immediately boost it and make a video about it,
Speaker 1: and a lot of her videos we're getting hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of views, and she is now the impression I'm
Speaker 1: getting is she's like, we did it, guys, we got
Speaker 1: Gabby justice. Now let's go after the next person, Like,
Speaker 1: let's just keep going down the list of missing persons.
Speaker 1: And I was like, this is not a healthy way
Speaker 1: to go about like helping, Like there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: being like I want to help bring awareness to missing persons,
Speaker 1: especially kind of circling back. How said that there are
Speaker 1: a lot of black, brown and indigenous people that do
Speaker 1: not get the same level of attention. That can be
Speaker 1: a really well intentioned attitude about how you present yourself online.
Speaker 1: But you were very lucky about how this Gabby situation
Speaker 1: played out, because, like you said, with the Reddit situation,
Speaker 1: all these Boston bomber conspiracy theories that they had going on,
Speaker 1: it did not end well. And it's not unreasonable to
Speaker 1: assume that we could have a very similar situation on
Speaker 1: our hands if the internet, through mob justice, vigilante justice,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, starts to all jointly
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that somebody who's potentially innocent in
Speaker 1: a situation um is then so aggressively harassed online that
Speaker 1: they're possibly driven to do something unthinkable. Uh, it's it's
Speaker 1: rough to think about that that could happen, and how
Speaker 1: ready and how excited people, especially on TikTok are right
Speaker 1: now to do exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good reminder.
Speaker 1: And I think part of me, like the part of
Speaker 1: me that's interested in why humans do the things they do,
Speaker 1: I can understand why people almost seem excited too to
Speaker 1: piece together what happened in this situation. It almost seems
Speaker 1: like it's like a puzzle or a game, Like I
Speaker 1: can under and I can understand why it makes people
Speaker 1: feel very validated to be like, oh, we are crusading
Speaker 1: for justice for this this this young woman who is
Speaker 1: not here to fight for herself, Like all of that
Speaker 1: feels very noble. So like, I want to be clear
Speaker 1: that I can really understand the reasoning behind why people
Speaker 1: get but why people act the way they do when
Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of thing, I really can,
Speaker 1: But I think that those kinds of feelings can be
Speaker 1: sort of intoxicating. And when you're when you're intoxicated on
Speaker 1: a feeling, when you when you feel like you are,
Speaker 1: you know, crusading for justice. I think that sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: the bigger picture can get missed, and you can sort
Speaker 1: of like miss exactly what you're talking about, what happens
Speaker 1: if somebody's wrongly accused, what happens if you're actually making
Speaker 1: you know, an investigation work, Like what if you're actually
Speaker 1: impeding an investigation by whipping up so much social media frenzy.
Speaker 1: So I'm happy that in this case it seems like
Speaker 1: it might have gone okay, But I don't want that
Speaker 1: to make it seem like, oh, it's it's good to
Speaker 1: have a social media fueled you know, mob justice style
Speaker 1: internet sleuth frenzy. It's always going to end up okay. Um.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a really dangerous precedent exactly, and
Speaker 1: especially talking about just like the possible implications of something
Speaker 1: going this viral, uh, like the O. J. Simpson case
Speaker 1: that was one of the most iconic high profile cases,
Speaker 1: and because it was covered on literally every inch of
Speaker 1: the every inch of the news, every magazine, every newspaper,
Speaker 1: it was absolutely everywhere. Uh. That actually dramatically impacted how
Speaker 1: the courtroom played out, because how can you find find
Speaker 1: a jury of impartial jurors when every single person has
Speaker 1: heard about this story and every single person has come
Speaker 1: to their own conclusion. So I can imagine that if
Speaker 1: I pray that Gabby finds justice and we figure out
Speaker 1: exactly what happened, and this potentially leads to somebody being
Speaker 1: tried in court. Uh. The more viral this story is
Speaker 1: and the more conspiracies that are popular, the harder it's
Speaker 1: going to be to find a group of twelve people
Speaker 1: that don't already have their own opinions. Absolutely, I have
Speaker 1: to show you something that. So I don't know what
Speaker 1: your Facebook feeds look like, but I know that mine
Speaker 1: has just been any little update on this case, a
Speaker 1: new story. And so I'm I'm in Washington, d C. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm not anywhere near where this happened on my local
Speaker 1: Fox affiliate, Fox five d C. I'm gonna show you
Speaker 1: this picture. I don't know if you can see it
Speaker 1: through the camera and the rainbow. Yeah, and the headline
Speaker 1: says rainbow appears where authorities discovered body believed to be
Speaker 1: Gabby the Potito. A rainbow appeared in the area where
Speaker 1: authorities earlier Sunday discovered what they believed to be the
Speaker 1: body of Gabby Petito and the Grand Tita National Park,
Speaker 1: And part of me just thought, like, it's very clear
Speaker 1: to me that any new angle they are going to
Speaker 1: get as much eyeballs and then they they they're gonna
Speaker 1: use this story to get as much eyeballs and clicks
Speaker 1: as possible, like if it's an actual update on the case,
Speaker 1: or an actual update in her disappearance or you know,
Speaker 1: something like that. Sure, a part of it was like,
Speaker 1: who would, like you're capital, You're like writing an article
Speaker 1: about a rainbow appearing, making it like I just really
Speaker 1: had a problem with that story, And I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: they really are any new angle, they are wasting no
Speaker 1: time to make sure that gets in our feeds, because
Speaker 1: it's almost like they're it felt like they were feeding
Speaker 1: this like frenzy or this appetite for new content about
Speaker 1: this case, and it didn't matter if it was actually
Speaker 1: a breaking update. It didn't matter if it was actually
Speaker 1: like relevant to the case. Uh, personally, I don't think
Speaker 1: our rainbow appearing in the sky is necessarily going to
Speaker 1: be relevant to this case or even like timely local
Speaker 1: information from my local news source here in d C.
Speaker 1: But the fact that they were like surfacing this to me,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, they really are just trying to
Speaker 1: have a steady stream of contact related to this, not
Speaker 1: not just important breaking, you know, information about it, but
Speaker 1: just like anything like, oh, here's what the weather was
Speaker 1: like when they found her body. M m, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's a rough one. And that even marshes kind of
Speaker 1: back into the territory of a lot of people who say,
Speaker 1: how are these online internet sleuths who just report every
Speaker 1: five seconds on the newest update, whether it's true or not,
Speaker 1: any different than local news stations. And there is an
Speaker 1: argument to be had for like news stations tend to
Speaker 1: have this problem too, They tend to milk stories for
Speaker 1: everything they're absolutely worth. But uh, that criticism of them
Speaker 1: is out there and public, and maybe it's not getting
Speaker 1: enough attention and it's not getting enough people talking about
Speaker 1: it as it deserves. But that doesn't make people online
Speaker 1: who don't even have remotely any professional experience in this
Speaker 1: free from that same amount of criticism to say like, oh,
Speaker 1: he did it too, is not get out of jail
Speaker 1: free card from you also being helped liable for some
Speaker 1: of the content some random person on the street might make.
Speaker 1: And I tend to get a lot of criticism in
Speaker 1: the game of like, hey, this isn't my day job.
Speaker 1: I'm just making random videos on the internet. Why are
Speaker 1: you mad at me? And I totally get that. I'm
Speaker 1: somebody who makes random videos on the internet too. I
Speaker 1: didn't plan on having a quarter million followers. I still
Speaker 1: have a day job, and it's I get it. But
Speaker 1: if you're going to keep that platform, prepare for the
Speaker 1: criticism that's just that's what's gonna come with it. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: that's such a good point. And I think like it
Speaker 1: reminds me of something else I learned from your video
Speaker 1: from your TikTok about this is that like sometimes particularly
Speaker 1: on YouTube, but I do know on TikTok as well.
Speaker 1: You know your TikTok can be monetized. Your YouTube can
Speaker 1: certainly be monetized. Part of it was like, is this
Speaker 1: just people kind of like making money off of someone
Speaker 1: else's trauma and someone else's pain and someone else's tragedy.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I can understand the incentive to like
Speaker 1: report on every little thing, be the first time of
Speaker 1: report on a breaking thing, no matter if it's true.
Speaker 1: You know, every little speculation, make a new video about
Speaker 1: it if you are trying to, you know, gamify that
Speaker 1: to get more eyeballs because it leads to more money.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's definitely we know. That is how some
Speaker 1: of these platforms were m hm, absolutely and uh comparing
Speaker 1: not to do this for a second, but to compare
Speaker 1: the amount of money that you can get between platforms.
Speaker 1: TikTok is one of the lowest paid social media platforms.
Speaker 1: So uh, as far as like raking in the cash,
Speaker 1: TikTok is not necessarily the best way to do it,
Speaker 1: of But that doesn't mean that you can't make money
Speaker 1: on TikTok. I am no longer monetizing my content. But
Speaker 1: when I did have monetized content, anytime I broke a
Speaker 1: million views on a dy oh, I could get anywhere
Speaker 1: from like fifty to two bucks depending on how many comments,
Speaker 1: how many likes, so many times it got shared. So
Speaker 1: if you go back to what I was saying, there
Speaker 1: was a girl with over forty videos and all of
Speaker 1: them had hundreds of thousands of views. You start doing
Speaker 1: the math, that can add up really quickly. And that's
Speaker 1: not to say that people's content doesn't have value and
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be paid for your work, but especially if
Speaker 1: you are being paid for your work, you should be
Speaker 1: held to hire criticism because now, hey, you're making money
Speaker 1: off of this um. If you want to just report
Speaker 1: on exactly what happened, I can't fault you for doing that,
Speaker 1: and I'm not necessarily mad that you're making money, But
Speaker 1: as soon as you start getting into the conspiratorial, the speculative,
Speaker 1: the outright wrong information, then hey, I'm gonna remind you
Speaker 1: you're making money on this, you should probably try to
Speaker 1: be ethical about it. There was one girl in particular
Speaker 1: who she sends taking her video down and she has apologize,
Speaker 1: so we'll give her credit for that. The girl who
Speaker 1: popularized the theory that Gabby was actually a serial killer. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's horrifying and I cannot imagine her family seeing that.
Speaker 1: I feel bad even mentioning it on a podcast, but
Speaker 1: that that happened. They spread that conspiracy theory and she
Speaker 1: took her video down, But it's still all over Twitter.
Speaker 1: It got millions of views. She probably made a decent
Speaker 1: amount of money on that, and it's like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: understand you're sorry. In hindsight, you feel bad, especially after
Speaker 1: they found her remains, but you still made money on that.
Speaker 1: It would be kind of nice if you donated. I
Speaker 1: don't know, that's just me. I'm on this kick lately
Speaker 1: of like, if you have a platform, even if it's
Speaker 1: a platform where you're not expecting to go viral, maybe
Speaker 1: you don't have that many followers, and you just you
Speaker 1: say something and you're like, oh now I've gone viral.
Speaker 1: Platforms come with responsibility, and like it is your responsibility
Speaker 1: to be a good steward of your platform and not
Speaker 1: just use it to spread baseless conspiracy theories. But typically
Speaker 1: that are that harmful to the family of someone who
Speaker 1: has gone missing. Like I just like, it's just completely irresponsible, exactly,
Speaker 1: and it's it's really sad, And it kind of ties
Speaker 1: back into before this whole Gabby situation happened, because I
Speaker 1: don't want to linger on that too much because it's
Speaker 1: kind of a larger conversation about true crime. But I
Speaker 1: was making a couple of videos that, like you had
Speaker 1: said before, this had all happened a few months ago,
Speaker 1: talking about like just some terrible things in the true
Speaker 1: crime community I was finding on the internet and kind
Speaker 1: of going back to like, oh, the Jeffrey Dahmer t
Speaker 1: shirts or um, like the serial killer merchandise, these coloring books. Um,
Speaker 1: these people are outright making money off of people's tragedies.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot more black and white
Speaker 1: ethically irresponsible than somebody who's making content that kind of
Speaker 1: just talks about an active case in an active situation. Um.
Speaker 1: So I like criticizing them for how they make their
Speaker 1: money more because it's a lot more like, hey, maybe
Speaker 1: we shouldn't make a coloring book of a child predator. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I am just gonna say, if you're making
Speaker 1: coloring books glorifying a child predator, you're an asshole. Like
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it should be illegal, but
Speaker 1: you're an asshole, Like they're the jury is the jury
Speaker 1: is not still out. If you're making if you're selling
Speaker 1: shirts that say cute see little slogans about Jeffrey Dahmer,
Speaker 1: you're not my kind of people not so completely agree
Speaker 1: with you there, And I do think it is much clearer,
Speaker 1: like if you're using your platform to make content about
Speaker 1: true crime and and you're monetizing them, Okay, like I
Speaker 1: have questions, but all right, but it's so clear when
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, I mass produce coloring books, I
Speaker 1: produce T shirts. It's it's such a clearer. I'm glad
Speaker 1: that you compared the two because it's such a clearer
Speaker 1: example of like harm I guess, like making money off
Speaker 1: of someone else's to agedy. Mhm. So in your take,
Speaker 1: you know, if you are someone who wants to make
Speaker 1: true prime content or like just generally like content that
Speaker 1: raises awareness, how can you be sure that you're doing
Speaker 1: that in a way that it's respectful and ethical. So
Speaker 1: I think that was a question I had for myself
Speaker 1: for the longest time, especially because when I started putting
Speaker 1: out criticisms, it wasn't necessarily like the most poignant criticisms.
Speaker 1: It was honestly kind of me ranbling like this is
Speaker 1: kind of messed up. Why does this exist? And then
Speaker 1: I had a lot of people ask me like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if this isn't ethical, what do you consider to be ethical?
Speaker 1: Is there a way to ethically consume or produce true
Speaker 1: crime content. So I've spent a ton of time mulling
Speaker 1: that over, and it's actually been kind of helpful because
Speaker 1: there have been various true crime creators who have reached
Speaker 1: out to me and been like, hey, i've seen your content.
Speaker 1: I one percent agree with you. I don't like that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff either. I'm trying to change it. Can
Speaker 1: I get your support? And I've been very hesitant to
Speaker 1: boost any one specific true crime content creator on my
Speaker 1: own platform, but I have seen people who I think
Speaker 1: are doing it in a slightly better way. I have
Speaker 1: seen a lot of like the most common form of
Speaker 1: true crime content is through a podcast. We've got things
Speaker 1: like My Favorite Murder Last podcast and left all those
Speaker 1: incredibly popular podcasts, and there's a lot of smaller ones
Speaker 1: out there that right now that are really trying to
Speaker 1: break through that focus entirely on victim advocacy. They talk
Speaker 1: about police reform, they talk about prison reform, like they're
Speaker 1: truly not just talking about like, hey, it's crazy how
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer like murdered a bunch of people a couple
Speaker 1: of decades ago. That's not the entire episode. They're talking about. Hey, um,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer did murder a lot of people a few
Speaker 1: decades ago. Let's talk about, um, why that happened, what
Speaker 1: failing has happened with the police, and why none of
Speaker 1: that has changed yet, and why Milwaukee really needs to
Speaker 1: get their stuff together. And I think that angle of
Speaker 1: the content of what systemically allowed this to happen, what
Speaker 1: created this environment where the things occurred, and what is
Speaker 1: still occurring in our society today, and how can we
Speaker 1: fundamentally change things so that these things do not continue.
Speaker 1: I think is some of the best true crime content
Speaker 1: out there, and I think it does have a genuine
Speaker 1: aim to produce change. So I genuinely love that kind
Speaker 1: of content. And I have overwhelmingly seen that that content
Speaker 1: is predominantly produced by people of color because they have
Speaker 1: that much more detailed, in depth perspective. So pretty much
Speaker 1: any true kind content creator within reason who is a
Speaker 1: person of color, I've immediately felt a stronger attraction to
Speaker 1: the content they make because they tend to have that
Speaker 1: heavier focus on that aspect. I am so glad that
Speaker 1: you said that, because you know I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1: I know that I'm not a huge consumer of true crime,
Speaker 1: but the content that I do consume, I think it's
Speaker 1: got to be content that is comfortable critiquing systems and
Speaker 1: particularly systems of power, and asking questions about how these
Speaker 1: systems fail victims and survivors. I know that so many
Speaker 1: true crime podcast us will just repeat what police officers say,
Speaker 1: or just repeat police reports verbatim, and it can kind
Speaker 1: of become this kind of copaganda where they're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: well the police said this, so that's got to be true.
Speaker 1: And I think good true crime content really has this
Speaker 1: opportunity to not just take the police at their word,
Speaker 1: not just take these systems at their word, but instead
Speaker 1: critique these systems and ask questions about how they really
Speaker 1: do fail victims and survivors every day. And so I
Speaker 1: want to be asking questions like what systems works to
Speaker 1: fail Gabby and all the other missing and murdered with
Speaker 1: women and girls out there, Like how are we supporting
Speaker 1: victims and survivors of domestic abuse and violence? How are
Speaker 1: we making sure that they're protected and actually do have support?
Speaker 1: Are we creating a climate that leads to folks like
Speaker 1: this to be more vulnerable in these kinds of situations?
Speaker 1: Like I want to know what systems failed these victims
Speaker 1: and survivors of violence and crime so that it's not
Speaker 1: repeated and we can actually learn something to make systemic
Speaker 1: change that leads to less tragedy and less harm overall, exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think another aspect from the racial issue that
Speaker 1: I think doesn't get highlighted enough, um at least in
Speaker 1: the white spaces that I tend to find myself in
Speaker 1: a lot, is that, uh, content creators that tend to
Speaker 1: have an incredibly heavy focus on white victims is something
Speaker 1: that needs to be seriously reevaluated, especially when we're talking
Speaker 1: about like national news coverage. I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of people will make the argument that in gabby situation,
Speaker 1: she was a social media influencer, so that had a
Speaker 1: bit of an effect on how discussed her situation was,
Speaker 1: But we cannot ignore the fact that people of color,
Speaker 1: men or LGBT individuals do not get this kind of coverage.
Speaker 1: People who aren't conventionally attractive do not give this kind
Speaker 1: of coverage. And podcasts that go out of their way
Speaker 1: to highlight instances like that, or just not necessarily podcast
Speaker 1: but content in general that goes out of the way
Speaker 1: to highlight those who are less likely to get coverage
Speaker 1: in the first place. I hate to say it, but
Speaker 1: just about everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer. Every just about
Speaker 1: everybody knows about Ted Bundy. They none of the finer specifics.
Speaker 1: But is it necessarily worth your time to go into
Speaker 1: that kind of content over a ten part series when
Speaker 1: you could be spending that time possibly talking about an
Speaker 1: active missing person who could really use a bolster invoice
Speaker 1: and a fresh reminder to their local place department that
Speaker 1: people still care and people are still watching, and just
Speaker 1: giving the facts of what's up. Making sure that people
Speaker 1: are aware, like, hey, this is the individual, looks like
Speaker 1: this is where they were last seen. Would be really
Speaker 1: awesome if people didn't forget that this is still a
Speaker 1: problem because those marginalized individuals never get that kind of attention.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And actually, you know, I've seen recently folks
Speaker 1: making that criticism of the Gabby Potito case, and so
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of true crime contact creators sort
Speaker 1: of I will I will say, like trying to respond
Speaker 1: to that. So they'll they'll be talking about Gabby's case
Speaker 1: and then be like, oh, that's similar to this other
Speaker 1: case but then involved a person of color. Or a
Speaker 1: you know, a non white victim or an LGBTQ person,
Speaker 1: and I I'm I'm here for it, Like I mean, like,
Speaker 1: if you have a platform and that you can use
Speaker 1: to get the word out about these cases that are
Speaker 1: not getting as much attention, I think that's great. But
Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder, like why weren't we doing
Speaker 1: it all along? Like why did it take that nudge
Speaker 1: of like, you know, there are there were seven hundred
Speaker 1: and ten you know, missing and missing and murdered Indigenous
Speaker 1: women and girls in that same area talk about them
Speaker 1: as well, Like I'm happy that folks are boosting this
Speaker 1: because I think I think, you know, it could it
Speaker 1: could really like revive interest, you know, But I just
Speaker 1: have to ask, like why did it Perhaps we should
Speaker 1: be interrogating why it took a nudge? Why it took
Speaker 1: that that kind of that kind of line being sort
Speaker 1: of like in the consciousness of how how we're talking
Speaker 1: about this case to make that to have folks that
Speaker 1: are making true crime content start generating awareness about these
Speaker 1: other kinds of cases exactly. And I do, very pessimistically
Speaker 1: kind of full expect that once the coverage of Gabby
Speaker 1: kind of dies down, that this conversation might die, and
Speaker 1: anybody who's willing to keep that conversation going and not
Speaker 1: letting people forget well, I think that is the biggest
Speaker 1: uphill battle. I think is absolutely noble. Like I hate that,
Speaker 1: uh a woman had to be put in that situation
Speaker 1: and had to get the national coverage she did to
Speaker 1: get people to talk about it again. Um. But there
Speaker 1: have been people of color talking about this the whole time,
Speaker 1: and nobody was ever listening to them. And it's so
Speaker 1: frustrating that the only time they get the microphone, even
Speaker 1: if it's for a short period of time, is when
Speaker 1: something tragic and horrific happens to a white woman, like
Speaker 1: nobody nobody deserves to happen. Nobody deserves to have happened
Speaker 1: to them, what happened to Gabby um. And it's frustrating
Speaker 1: that the consequence of that is this is the only
Speaker 1: time that people who have been focusing on that issue
Speaker 1: this whole time finally get to speak because they will
Speaker 1: be immediately shot down as a why are you making
Speaker 1: this about race? And it's like, I it's it's been
Speaker 1: about this whole time. I've been talking about this whole time.
Speaker 1: A white woman passing away tragically doesn't change what I've
Speaker 1: been saying, Jessica, I thank you so much for your
Speaker 1: work and your perspective. Like I wasn't really sure what
Speaker 1: to expect from our conversation because I just had a
Speaker 1: lot of thoughts and like feelings and having trouble this
Speaker 1: even like processing them. But you know, I find that
Speaker 1: your work really helps me articulate my own thoughts and
Speaker 1: helps me process, you know, in highly charged times, helps
Speaker 1: me like process and reconnect to like what I'm actually thinking.
Speaker 1: So thank you for your work. Where can folks follow you?
Speaker 1: And what are you working on these days? So right
Speaker 1: now I have a Hodge Project content of I still
Speaker 1: do make a lot of trafficking awareness videos and I
Speaker 1: talk a lot about trafficking misinformation. That is on my
Speaker 1: TikTok at blood Bath and beyond, and then that is
Speaker 1: my handle on all other socials. Got a story about
Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech? I just want to say hi.
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello a tankod dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at Tangdi
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.
Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If
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