1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This episode mentions violence against women 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: and death There Are No Girls on the Internet as 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: a production of My Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, and this is there are No Girls on 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: the Internet. So some of y'all might know that I 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: am very interested in our national obsession with true crime content. Now, 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: to be clear, I don't have any kind of big 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: problem with true crime. You know, I've consumed true crime content, 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: and it's not like I think that you're morally superior 10 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: if you don't watch true crime. But I do think 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: that we should be critical of the true crime that 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: we consume because it can often be normalizing a whole 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: lot of messed up stuff, racism, cappaganda, the works. And 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: it can also not be particularly respectful to survivors, victims 15 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: of violent crime, and their families. For instance, even though 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: the new Jeffrey Dahmer Netflix series is careful to show 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,639 Speaker 1: the victim's point of view and also pretty clearly cast 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: the racist, classist, homophobic criminal justice system as the real villains, 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, for letting Jeffrey Dahmer get away with his 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 1: crimes even as his victims escaped and told police pretty 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: clearly what was going on. So even while that might 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: be a good thing, the families of the victims of 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmers say they were never consulted about the new 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: show and that watching it actually retraumatized them, and people 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: of color who worked on the series say it was 26 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: a bad racist experience for them. Lifetime was similarly slammed 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: for airing a film dramatization of the life and tragic 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: death of Gabby Petito, who, in August one was killed 29 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: by her fiance, Brian Landry while they were traveling together 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: on a van life journey across the United States. Gabby 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: Petito was only killed about a year ago, and already 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: Time is putting together a movie about her tragic death, 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: and it does raise questions about true crime and who 34 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: gets to benefit from the stories and trauma and harm 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: that real people experienced. Now this is personal to me. 36 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: Someone I was close to was murdered by a serial killer, 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: and I hated watching the ways that people who did 38 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: not even know her capitalized off her story and death. 39 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: But is it possible to make true crime content that 40 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: is actually respectful of survivors and the victims of violent crime. 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: Let's listen to this conversation that we had about it. 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: Last year, when I was twenty one, a good friend 43 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: of mine went missing. I'm not sure it's something I 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: ever completely got over, and I still kind of think 45 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: of my adult life as divided between before her disappearance 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: and after her disappearance. That's how much the experience changed me. 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: Watching my friend's story be picked apart on Nancy Grace's 48 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: true crime television show was one of the most surreal 49 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: experiences of my life. I just remember how foreign the 50 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: person that she was describing seemed to me. I didn't 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: recognize my cool, funny friend at all. By the time 52 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: I found her body, I had stopped watching programming about 53 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: her case altogether. I just couldn't keep listening to people 54 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: trying to tell her story without her in it. This week, 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: authorities found the remains of Gabby Potito, the twenty two 56 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: year old woman who was documenting her travels to national 57 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: parks with her fiancee in a van. Now this story 58 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: is heartbreaking, and it also feels really familiar to me. 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Gabby's tragic story ignited social media. Now many people were 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,279 Speaker 1: just legitimately trying to get the word out about Gabby disappearance. 61 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: But I was also really troubled by the kind of 62 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: content that other folks on social media were making that 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: included everything from baseless conspiracy theories two psychics claiming to 64 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: have information about her whereabouts. Now, these weren't just random 65 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: one off videos that maybe got a handful of views 66 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: here or there. They were going viral on platforms like 67 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: Twitter and TikTok, and I just really didn't like it. 68 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: It felt like some people were gleefully picking apart this 69 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: tragedy with no regard for whether or not it was 70 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: actually helpful, ethical, or respectful. And I think that's because 71 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: when it comes to the genre that we know as 72 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: true crime, in the kind of online conversation that it sparks, 73 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: it can be easy to forget that they're actual people 74 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: and actual tragedies. So what happens when the darkest moments 75 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: of a stranger's life are turned into content. Jessica Dean, 76 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: also known as blood Bess and Beyond, has been making 77 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: videos on TikTok about some of the less ethical aspects 78 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: of the true crime community for months. You might remember 79 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: her from our episode debunking viral myths around sex trafficking. 80 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: Fed up with the ways that content creators talk about 81 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: tragedy like it's a puzzle or just an interesting story. 82 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: She's been using her platform to urge for more careful, respectful, 83 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: and thoughtful conversations around crime. I want to say right 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: up front that this is a tough conversation and I 85 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: do not have all the answers. But I spoke to 86 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: Jessica about what happens when true crime sparks of frenzy 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: of internet sleuths and viral conspiracy theories, and now we 88 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: can all work to create ethical conversations about crime that 89 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: can lead to actual systemic change. So my name is 90 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: Jessica Dean. I go by blood Bath and Beyond primarily 91 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: on TikTok, which was my largest platform, and I've actually 92 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: been on the podcast before. I'm excited to be back. 93 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you invited me back, and I 94 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: guess today we're talking about true crime. Yes, we're so 95 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: glad to have you back as a friend of the show, 96 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: because I honestly can't think of a better person to 97 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: help me unpack all of these feelings I've been having 98 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: about true crime content. You know, I'm not really a 99 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: big consumer of true crime content. Myself, and I know 100 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: that you've been really vocal about some of the problems 101 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: with the genre on TikTok, and I guess I just 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: feel like it exploits a very real anxiety that women have, 103 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: that tragedy is lurking around every corner. And I always 104 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: really take issue with content that exploits and plays on 105 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: our anxieties when it can also spark real world behavior 106 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: like amplifying conspiracy theories or mobilizing internet sleuths who try 107 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: to solve crimes without necessarily stopping to ask if it's 108 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: actually a useful precedent. So, I guess my first question 109 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: is what are your thoughts on all of this? What 110 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on true crime? And why do you 111 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: make videos trying to amplify the ways that true crime 112 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: can be really unethical? Yeah, so I think it's important, 113 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: like right off the bat, to save myself, um, a 114 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: little bit of headache later, um that I want to 115 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: be clear that not all true crime content is the same, 116 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: especially on TikTok. There are some creators of true crime 117 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: content that I find make at least what I would 118 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: consider more palatable and what I think is more genuine content. Um. 119 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: But a lot of my videos I had made in 120 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: the past were kind of hyper fixating and really shining 121 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: a light on some of the rougher stuff that you 122 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: can definitely find out there. Uh, and so like, with 123 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: that out of the way, I think it's uh, probably 124 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: important we talk about some of the more problematic popular 125 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: stuff that definitely goes viral. I find things ranging from 126 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: true crime accounts that are dedicated to like frosting cookies, 127 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: Like I think they're a professional baker and they'll be 128 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: frosting cookies while they talk about some poor woman that 129 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: was brutally murdered by her boyfriend, and they kind of 130 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: make it I don't want to say lighthearted, but it 131 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: definitely has a very lighthearted atmosphere about it, like, oh, 132 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: look at me decorating this cute little cookie of a puppy, 133 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: and it feels to really take away from the seriousness 134 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: of the situation. I've also found accounts that are dedicated to, 135 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: uh somebody, you can find it on Amazon. Somebody published 136 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: like a coloring book all dedicated to different types of 137 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: serial killers. And I think they tried to advertise it 138 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: as some sort of like educational material because I think 139 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: it gives like a little blurb of each serial killer 140 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: on every page, but it's also still a coloring book, 141 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: so it feels a little morbid. And oftentimes these people 142 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: who are making these videos, they'll have themselves talking over 143 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: these videos, and the attitude about it just seems very off. 144 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: They've got this very lighthearted, almost fun ha ha, crazy 145 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: how this happened ten years ago kind of attitude about it. 146 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: And it's always been driving me really crazy because is 147 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: not to get into too many specifics about it, but 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: as somebody who is actually pretty close to a very 149 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: high profile case, if I saw somebody making content about 150 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: that specific high profile case, I could not be disgusted. 151 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: So I can't imagine that people who had an even 152 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: closer connection to these high profile cases they're covering might 153 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: come across this content and how they might react or 154 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: how that might make them feel. And it's it's truly 155 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: unfortunate because I often hear kind of as a reaction 156 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: to that is like, oh, they wouldn't see it, Um, well, 157 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: I saw. I've seen several videos related to the case 158 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: that I have a connection to, and they don't make 159 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: me feel great. And I think it's really important that 160 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: we remember that, especially if a lot of true crime 161 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: content creators will come at with an attitude of respecting 162 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: the victims and trying to bring awareness to situations, especially 163 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: if they're potentially ongoing. But that's kind of hard to 164 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: that's a hard pill of swallow when you also look 165 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: at their content. You're like, if I were the person 166 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: affected by the situation, I would not feel comfortable with 167 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: how your cover, the attitude you have, or just the 168 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: atmosphere of the content in general. So that was the 169 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: big driving factor for me to highlight some of the 170 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: more nefarious parts of the true crime community. And I 171 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: always want to make sure that people understand that, like 172 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: I said, not all true kind all, not all true 173 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: crime content is the same, and it's really important that 174 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: we help uplift the content that is more ethical and 175 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: is speaking more politely about it. But one of the 176 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: biggest factors in that is highlighting, though, but the worst 177 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: parts and the kind of instances we want to be 178 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: avoiding absolutely, you know, and I'm so glad that you 179 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: brought that up. You know, I think that it's so 180 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: important for people to remember that you're talking about actual 181 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: people and like their trauma and the and like their 182 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: community members who are left behind to like pick up 183 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: the pieces. And you know, I think I think there 184 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 1: was like a really frankly tasteless shirt or something about 185 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer, and I think it was your TikTok where 186 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: it was like that wasn't that long ago, you know, 187 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: his the family members of his victims are very much 188 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: still alive, and like you think they don't have social media. 189 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: You think that it's so far fetched that they would see, 190 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, tasteless, crass shirts that people are selling with 191 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: like cute see little slogans on them. I think it 192 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: can be. I think when I see true crime content 193 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: that clearly does not take into effect the account that 194 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: you're talking about real people who, some of whom can 195 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: you know as yourself, as you just said, like, we'll 196 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: see the way that you're talking about their loved ones 197 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: who were no longer here and like the worst most 198 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: dark parts of their experiences and just sort of being 199 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: so callous about that really doesn't sit well with me. Absolutely. 200 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: That was kind of my tipping point, and uh, not 201 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: to like get too much of my own personal life, 202 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: but the reason that the Jeffrey Dahmer shirt really stuck 203 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: out to me is because I actually currently live in 204 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: Milwaukee and the Jeffrey Dammer was from Milwaukee, So I 205 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: don't know if it was the proximity to the crime 206 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: that kind of made me feel this way, but seeing 207 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 1: shirts that made a very lewd, sexual and very humorous 208 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: jokes about it, I was like, why, why one are 209 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: you comfortable selling this? Like the excuse of oh, it's 210 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: just dark humor, learn to take a joke can only 211 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: carry you so far, and you can sell that shirt. 212 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop you, um, but I am 213 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: going to remind you that these people were human things 214 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,719 Speaker 1: and that Jeffrey Dahmer predominantly targeted gay black men and 215 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: he killed and sexually violently sexually assaulted children. UM. I'm 216 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: gonna remind you of that, and you kind of have 217 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: to live with how that makes you feel, because that's 218 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: just reality. And I think that helps snap a lot 219 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: of people back into like, oh, this might not have 220 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: been great, but there are people who are inevitably going 221 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: to just use that it's dark humor get over at 222 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: excuse regardless, and we just kind of have to live 223 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: with that. But I mean, if reminding people helps, I'm 224 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: not going to be upset by it. Yeah, I mean, 225 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: how would you if you were wearing happen to be 226 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: wearing one of those like awful tasteless shirts making like 227 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: making a joke about Jeffrey Dahmer's crimes. Imagine like bumping 228 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: into one like a family member of one of the victims, 229 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: like you better be Like like would I wonder if 230 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: people would be, how they would feel about explaining it's 231 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: just a joke because this dark humor to their face 232 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 1: that they actually came in contact with these folks. I 233 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: think that like perhaps it can feel like you're so 234 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: removed from these people, like they don't even necessarily seem 235 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: like real people whose feelings or whose perspectives you even 236 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: need to take into account. It really just rombs me 237 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: the wrong way. Yeah, there was actually a I believe 238 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: it was a bar. I don't want to say it 239 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: was a restaurant. I think it was just a bar 240 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: in Milwaukee that Um, it's a really historical building. It's 241 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: very iconic, and they actually gotten a lot of controversy 242 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: a few years ago. Uh, they were running like a 243 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer cannibal themed tour in the city of Milwaukee, 244 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: and somebody had mapped out that they were only maybe 245 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: like three or four miles away from uh Dahmer's old apartment. 246 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: It since been demolished, but they were like a stone's 247 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: throw away from it. And it took so much public 248 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: pressure to be like, the family members are still in 249 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: this city. They probably drive past your bar. Why would 250 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: you do this? And the amount of public pressure it 251 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: took us pretty sad, but eventually they caved, and it 252 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: kind of really helped the city Milwaukee reel back and 253 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: be like, Okay, maybe we shouldn't have Jeffrey Dahmer themed 254 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: food and drink and tours and make all these board 255 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: games and all these things like it really helped kind 256 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: of put that into perspective. So I hate when you 257 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: kind of have to land best or you have to 258 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: put one figure on a like on a pike, to 259 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: be like, look at this terrible thing, because like this 260 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: is a business. I still I don't want these people 261 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: to go jobless. But in an instance like that, sometimes 262 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: it does take publicly shaming one large group of people 263 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: to get the rest of the people to realize like, hey, 264 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: maybe this isn't cool. So that's so interesting. I mean 265 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: I want to I wanna switch gears a bit and 266 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: talk a bit about the case that I feel like 267 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: is really really just taking off on TikTok um, that 268 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: tragic situation happening with Gabby Potito. Um by the time 269 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: this comes out, you know, I know, the last update 270 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: that I saw was that uh, they had found remains 271 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: and they were consistent with her, but it wasn't wasn't 272 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: clear if it was or not. Um. I I want 273 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: to say up right off the top of the the 274 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: conversation that you know, what happened to her is a tragedy. 275 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: I I you know, I don't know the specifics of 276 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: what has happened, but you know, it's tragic and horrifying, 277 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: and like my heart goes out to her family, into 278 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: her community, and I guess I wonder, you know, I'm 279 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: sure you've seen them to all of these very it 280 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: almost seems like every time there was a new update, 281 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,239 Speaker 1: I was seeing new TikTok's on my for you page. 282 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: Some of them were just sort of like by the book, 283 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: like here's what's going on, you know, just like news update, 284 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: and like I didn't really have a problem with those, 285 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: but then I would see these other videos that almost 286 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: seemed kind of gleeful or like excited. I can't even 287 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: really describe it. It would be like you would think 288 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: they were talking about like a new episode of a 289 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: show they like, but they're actually talking about like the 290 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: like disappearance of a young woman who is a real person. 291 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: And I can't really explain the why. I just like, really, 292 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: I was surprised to see this, and I was surprised 293 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: to see how much it took hold. You know, I'm 294 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than you, so I remember when 295 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway went missing. I was in college, and it 296 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: was like the around the clock coverage of her disappearance. 297 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: People were like, oh, well, it's because she is a 298 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: like pretty white girl. And you know, there are so 299 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: many different, you know, indigenous black and brown women who 300 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: have gone missing in the same area that certainly have 301 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: not gotten the same level of of, you know, attention 302 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: that this case has gotten. And that's not to take 303 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: away from the fact that I'm happy that people are, 304 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, really motivated to find her and that they're 305 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: that they're like they're talking about her case. But I 306 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: can't help but wonder, like, is there a way that 307 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: people can talk about this situation that just is it 308 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: seems kind of ghoulish to me. Absolutely, You're you're hitting 309 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: out all the all of the points that I've been 310 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: trying to get across on my TikTok. So, like you said, 311 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: just to make sure that we're all clear, Like, we 312 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: are very happy that Gabby was able to get the 313 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: social media attention that she did get. And I think 314 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: it can high to an extent, it can highlight the 315 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: power of social media because there were so many posts 316 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: out there being like, hey, there's young girl is missing. 317 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: Here is her name, here is her face, here's a 318 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: couple of identifying markers, and this is where she was 319 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: last seen. That's such critical information, especially if you're in 320 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: that area. This is a little bit more unique because 321 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: it kind of had like a transnational like it was 322 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: two dates very far away from each other. But especially 323 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: if you're local, that can be really useful. Somebody who 324 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: happens to see a TikTok about this girl, who happens 325 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: to see a piece of critical evidence like how we 326 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: actually experienced with this case. That's so crucial and it's 327 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: so important. I never want to downplay how important that is. 328 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it has this is such 329 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: an intense boomerang effect that starts to come back around. 330 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: And we did see so many videos of people with 331 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: just outright the wrong attitude, very like you said, gleeful, 332 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: almost getty, very excited whenever they could be the first 333 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: one to break the next piece of information, which was 334 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: usually just purely speculation with nothing to back it up. 335 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: And it I don't know how to work on a say, uh, 336 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: it's it's frustrating to see that kind of content because 337 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: you're always going to have that on the Internet, no 338 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: matter what you're talking about. There's always going to be 339 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: people when you have the entire world that your fingers, 340 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: who take things the wrong way. But these videos were 341 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: going viral, and I think that's one of the biggest 342 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: criticisms I've got, and one of the biggest pieces of 343 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: backlash I've got is why are you fixating on these 344 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: total rando crazies who have no followers And that's not 345 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: the case. I'm highlighting videos that have had hundreds of thousands, 346 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: if not millions of views, Yet somehow it seems like 347 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: nobody's calling out the tone, and I think it really 348 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: speaks to the larger point of TikTok is a platform 349 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: you can go viral on very easily. It is very 350 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: easy to make content. The bar for entry is set 351 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: incredibly low, and so you have people who are by 352 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: far far from professional journalists making this kind of content. 353 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: But then at the end of the day they want 354 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: to be put in the same category as journalists, and 355 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: they're like, I'm just breaking the news, I'm just trying 356 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: to spread awareness. Be like, Okay, now you're starting to 357 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: march in this territory of professional journalism, yet you're not 358 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: holding yourself and nobody's holding you too remotely what we 359 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: could could be considered journalistic standards. And like any journalist 360 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: who puts out a story that's asolutely crest and inappropriate, 361 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: they're going to receive backlash. If these TikTokers want to 362 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: be held in the same regard, they should were prepared 363 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: for the same exact backlash. Yeah. I saw one of 364 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: the videos where, um, somebody was referencing l Woods. You 365 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: know that scene at the end of Legally Blonde, where 366 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: l is able to be like, oh, because of her 367 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: her perm, she couldn't have been in the shower because 368 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: her curls are intact. And it was in reference to 369 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: a Instagram picture of Gabby with blonde hair, with like 370 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: her her roots had been done so her roots were 371 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: not dark. And again I think that referencing I love 372 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: legally blonde, I think like referencing yourself as an L 373 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: Woods type or any reference to that to like a 374 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: comedy when we're talking about missing person, I think it's 375 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: just not good. It's just it's just been bad taste, 376 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: you know exactly. And I think, like I remember back 377 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: during the Boston bombing. At that time, I was like 378 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: very active on Reddit, and redditors were so convinced they 379 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: had found they had like solved the boss the Boston bombing. Uh. 380 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: They thought it was this guy who had gone who 381 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: had gone missing as family was looking for him and 382 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: they were like, oh, the pictures are the same, and 383 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: it turns out it was not true. Like it was 384 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: just they got the wrong guy. This family who was 385 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: already suffering from their you know, their family member being missing, 386 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: had to go through this process of being like, he's 387 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: not the Boston bomber. He is missing, but he's not 388 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: the Boston bomber. And it was just a case of 389 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: like they got the wrong person. They they you know, 390 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: Internet slew. This just didn't know what they were doing, 391 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: and so part of me, I mean, this is where 392 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: it gets kind of complicated, and I don't necessarily have 393 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: this is just my opinion, and I don't necessarily have 394 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: the like right answer. I'm just I just have a 395 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: lot of questions. I saw on Twitter or someone saying like, oh, well, 396 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: there's too much emphasis on some of the unsavory aspects 397 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: of the true crime TikTok community. But they're over there. 398 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: They're glossing over the fact that like gen z TikTok 399 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: or like young women and girls broke this case open 400 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: and you know that, you know, they really cracked this case. 401 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: And part of me is thinking, like, hey, I'm not 402 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: sure if that's true. B When you glorify internet sleuths, 403 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: you also have to take into account that internet sleuths 404 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: have like ruined people's lives, got the wrong person, you know, 405 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: just gotten it wrong because they're not actual you know, investigators. 406 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: There's people on on on social media or on the internet. 407 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: And I also, I mean, I don't know how I 408 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: how I felt about that that she she basically said 409 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: that the reason why people are being so hard on 410 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: these TikTokers is because they're mostly women. Young women and girls, 411 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: and that we don't like young women and girls, and 412 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: so it's just sexist. And I thought it was an 413 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: interesting sort of Devil's advocate position and that I was 414 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: not sure I agree. I just think that, like, it's unsavory, 415 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: and I don't find it unsavory because it's women and 416 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: girls doing it. I find it unsavory because it's not 417 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: a good thing to be doing. I guess that was 418 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: a pretty big reaction that I've been seeing online. Is 419 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: TikTok cracked this case. These internet sleuths were the one 420 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: who once who did it. It It had a very similar 421 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: air to I hate to be referencing a Netflix show 422 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: in this specific situation, but it's terrifyingly accurate. Is the 423 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: show Don't Funk with Cats. It was this case of 424 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: this woman who had zero experience, had no idea really 425 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: what she was doing, but fell down this rabbit hole 426 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: and ended up actually solving a very complicated, pretty much 427 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: dead end series of murders. And that was very impressive. 428 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: And it's kind of scary because even that woman has 429 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: come out and said, like, hey, this was purely coincidental. 430 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: Please don't try to mimic what I was doing like 431 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was doing. I could have 432 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: gotten really hurt. I could have accused the wrong person. 433 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: This just happened to work out perfectly. And so it's 434 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: really frustrating to see the people on TikTok who are 435 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: now I don't want to say, taking credit, but are 436 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: definitely patting themselves on the back for having cracked this case, 437 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: in which, as far as I understand, at least when 438 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: we're recording right now, what the case was is that 439 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence they received help find this 440 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: poor girl's remains a few days ago, just yesterday. Wow, 441 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: time is time is weird? I was just yesterday that 442 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: she it. There was some like van life YouTubers who 443 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: made very similar content to Gabby, who had seen all 444 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: these stories online about how Gabby was missing, and then 445 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: realized they happened to be in the same National Park 446 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: as her roughly the same time, and they had a 447 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: bunch of unedited raw footage from their trip that they 448 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: were going to put up on YouTube. So they scrubbed 449 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: through all this unedited footage and realized that they actually 450 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: found like a clear shot of what was Gabby's van, 451 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: and they sent that to the BI they had posted 452 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: online about it too. The FBI followed up on that, 453 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: went back to the same exact spot, and that's how 454 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: they ended up finding her remains. So that's one of 455 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: those instances of like the the story being on social 456 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: media and blowing up as big as it did, truly 457 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: did help in that specific instance at least bring that 458 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: tip to the proper authorities who were then able to 459 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: look into it and identify what it actually happened. But 460 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: there's that doesn't negate the insane amount of problems that 461 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: come with those same exact internet salutes. And it's truly 462 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: frustrating to see the same people that two days ago 463 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: were conspiring that Gabby was actually a serial killer um 464 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: and that she was murdering other people and is now 465 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: on the run, or another conspiracy I had seen is 466 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: that she was just doing it all for attention, are 467 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: now very quick to jump in the pool of people 468 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: who magically cracked this case. And that's so ungodly frustrating 469 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: I cannot put into word. It's how angry that makes 470 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: me that the same exact people who were claiming she 471 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: was doing it for attention are ready to say that 472 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: they're the ones who found her remains. That's I mean, 473 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: I can only imagine how frustrating that is. And yeah, 474 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: the shortlist of completely baseless conspiracy theories. I saw people 475 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: saying on TikTok doing it for attention, she was killing 476 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: people her I guess fiance or partner had to be 477 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: guilty because he liked fight club. Another serial killer who 478 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: another serial killer might have been responsible. Like, I don't 479 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: know that there's any kind of like link. Everybody's like, oh, 480 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: there's another you know, another couple was murdered around there. 481 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe it's the same person. You know. Just I 482 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: feel like when you traffic in just like baseless conjecture 483 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: to then be doing a bit of a victory laps, 484 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: it just seems very incongruous to me, Like I've I've 485 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: seen the same thing that you're taking thing about where 486 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: people are now kind of like I don't want to 487 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: say taking credit, but really being like wow, my videos 488 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: just wildly speculating they really helped, And I'm not I'm 489 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: not sure if that's the right takeaway here exactly. There's 490 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to name drop anybody on a podcast 491 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: because I don't want this person receiving a ton of hate. 492 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: But there was one individual on TikTok who had made 493 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: um over forty videos about Gabby in less than six 494 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: days and was very quick to uh boost any of 495 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: these random theories anytime through anybody through speculation her way, 496 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: she would immediately boost it and make a video about it, 497 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: and a lot of her videos we're getting hundreds of 498 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: thousands of views, and she is now the impression I'm 499 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: getting is she's like, we did it, guys, we got 500 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: Gabby justice. Now let's go after the next person, Like, 501 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: let's just keep going down the list of missing persons. 502 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: And I was like, this is not a healthy way 503 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: to go about like helping, Like there's nothing wrong with 504 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: being like I want to help bring awareness to missing persons, 505 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: especially kind of circling back. How said that there are 506 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: a lot of black, brown and indigenous people that do 507 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: not get the same level of attention. That can be 508 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: a really well intentioned attitude about how you present yourself online. 509 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: But you were very lucky about how this Gabby situation 510 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: played out, because, like you said, with the Reddit situation, 511 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: all these Boston bomber conspiracy theories that they had going on, 512 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: it did not end well. And it's not unreasonable to 513 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: assume that we could have a very similar situation on 514 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: our hands if the internet, through mob justice, vigilante justice, 515 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, starts to all jointly 516 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that somebody who's potentially innocent in 517 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: a situation um is then so aggressively harassed online that 518 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: they're possibly driven to do something unthinkable. Uh, it's it's 519 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: rough to think about that that could happen, and how 520 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: ready and how excited people, especially on TikTok are right 521 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: now to do exactly that. Yeah, that's a really good reminder. 522 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: And I think part of me, like the part of 523 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: me that's interested in why humans do the things they do, 524 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: I can understand why people almost seem excited too to 525 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: piece together what happened in this situation. It almost seems 526 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: like it's like a puzzle or a game, Like I 527 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: can under and I can understand why it makes people 528 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: feel very validated to be like, oh, we are crusading 529 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: for justice for this this this young woman who is 530 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: not here to fight for herself, Like all of that 531 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: feels very noble. So like, I want to be clear 532 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: that I can really understand the reasoning behind why people 533 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: get but why people act the way they do when 534 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: it comes to this kind of thing, I really can, 535 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: But I think that those kinds of feelings can be 536 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: sort of intoxicating. And when you're when you're intoxicated on 537 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: a feeling, when you when you feel like you are, 538 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, crusading for justice. I think that sometimes, you know, 539 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: the bigger picture can get missed, and you can sort 540 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: of like miss exactly what you're talking about, what happens 541 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: if somebody's wrongly accused, what happens if you're actually making 542 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: you know, an investigation work, Like what if you're actually 543 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: impeding an investigation by whipping up so much social media frenzy. 544 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: So I'm happy that in this case it seems like 545 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: it might have gone okay, But I don't want that 546 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: to make it seem like, oh, it's it's good to 547 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: have a social media fueled you know, mob justice style 548 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: internet sleuth frenzy. It's always going to end up okay. Um. 549 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a really dangerous precedent exactly, and 550 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: especially talking about just like the possible implications of something 551 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: going this viral, uh, like the O. J. Simpson case 552 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: that was one of the most iconic high profile cases, 553 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: and because it was covered on literally every inch of 554 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: the every inch of the news, every magazine, every newspaper, 555 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: it was absolutely everywhere. Uh. That actually dramatically impacted how 556 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: the courtroom played out, because how can you find find 557 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: a jury of impartial jurors when every single person has 558 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: heard about this story and every single person has come 559 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: to their own conclusion. So I can imagine that if 560 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: I pray that Gabby finds justice and we figure out 561 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: exactly what happened, and this potentially leads to somebody being 562 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: tried in court. Uh. The more viral this story is 563 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: and the more conspiracies that are popular, the harder it's 564 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: going to be to find a group of twelve people 565 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: that don't already have their own opinions. Absolutely, I have 566 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: to show you something that. So I don't know what 567 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: your Facebook feeds look like, but I know that mine 568 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: has just been any little update on this case, a 569 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: new story. And so I'm I'm in Washington, d C. Right, 570 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm not anywhere near where this happened on my local 571 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: Fox affiliate, Fox five d C. I'm gonna show you 572 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: this picture. I don't know if you can see it 573 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: through the camera and the rainbow. Yeah, and the headline 574 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: says rainbow appears where authorities discovered body believed to be 575 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Gabby the Potito. A rainbow appeared in the area where 576 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: authorities earlier Sunday discovered what they believed to be the 577 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: body of Gabby Petito and the Grand Tita National Park, 578 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: And part of me just thought, like, it's very clear 579 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: to me that any new angle they are going to 580 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: get as much eyeballs and then they they they're gonna 581 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: use this story to get as much eyeballs and clicks 582 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: as possible, like if it's an actual update on the case, 583 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: or an actual update in her disappearance or you know, 584 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: something like that. Sure, a part of it was like, 585 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: who would, like you're capital, You're like writing an article 586 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: about a rainbow appearing, making it like I just really 587 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: had a problem with that story, And I was like, wow, 588 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: they really are any new angle, they are wasting no 589 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: time to make sure that gets in our feeds, because 590 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: it's almost like they're it felt like they were feeding 591 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: this like frenzy or this appetite for new content about 592 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: this case, and it didn't matter if it was actually 593 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: a breaking update. It didn't matter if it was actually 594 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: like relevant to the case. Uh, personally, I don't think 595 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: our rainbow appearing in the sky is necessarily going to 596 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: be relevant to this case or even like timely local 597 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: information from my local news source here in d C. 598 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: But the fact that they were like surfacing this to me, 599 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: I was like, well, they really are just trying to 600 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: have a steady stream of contact related to this, not 601 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: not just important breaking, you know, information about it, but 602 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: just like anything like, oh, here's what the weather was 603 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: like when they found her body. M m, yeah, that's 604 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: that's a rough one. And that even marshes kind of 605 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: back into the territory of a lot of people who say, 606 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: how are these online internet sleuths who just report every 607 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: five seconds on the newest update, whether it's true or not, 608 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: any different than local news stations. And there is an 609 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: argument to be had for like news stations tend to 610 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: have this problem too, They tend to milk stories for 611 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: everything they're absolutely worth. But uh, that criticism of them 612 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,719 Speaker 1: is out there and public, and maybe it's not getting 613 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: enough attention and it's not getting enough people talking about 614 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: it as it deserves. But that doesn't make people online 615 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: who don't even have remotely any professional experience in this 616 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: free from that same amount of criticism to say like, oh, 617 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: he did it too, is not get out of jail 618 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: free card from you also being helped liable for some 619 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: of the content some random person on the street might make. 620 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: And I tend to get a lot of criticism in 621 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: the game of like, hey, this isn't my day job. 622 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: I'm just making random videos on the internet. Why are 623 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: you mad at me? And I totally get that. I'm 624 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: somebody who makes random videos on the internet too. I 625 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: didn't plan on having a quarter million followers. I still 626 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: have a day job, and it's I get it. But 627 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: if you're going to keep that platform, prepare for the 628 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: criticism that's just that's what's gonna come with it. Yeah. Right, 629 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: that's such a good point. And I think like it 630 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: reminds me of something else I learned from your video 631 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: from your TikTok about this is that like sometimes particularly 632 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: on YouTube, but I do know on TikTok as well. 633 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: You know your TikTok can be monetized. Your YouTube can 634 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: certainly be monetized. Part of it was like, is this 635 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: just people kind of like making money off of someone 636 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: else's trauma and someone else's pain and someone else's tragedy. 637 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: Like you know, I can understand the incentive to like 638 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: report on every little thing, be the first time of 639 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: report on a breaking thing, no matter if it's true. 640 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: You know, every little speculation, make a new video about 641 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: it if you are trying to, you know, gamify that 642 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: to get more eyeballs because it leads to more money. 643 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's definitely we know. That is how some 644 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: of these platforms were m hm, absolutely and uh comparing 645 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: not to do this for a second, but to compare 646 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: the amount of money that you can get between platforms. 647 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: TikTok is one of the lowest paid social media platforms. 648 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: So uh, as far as like raking in the cash, 649 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: TikTok is not necessarily the best way to do it, 650 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: of But that doesn't mean that you can't make money 651 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: on TikTok. I am no longer monetizing my content. But 652 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: when I did have monetized content, anytime I broke a 653 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: million views on a dy oh, I could get anywhere 654 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: from like fifty to two bucks depending on how many comments, 655 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: how many likes, so many times it got shared. So 656 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: if you go back to what I was saying, there 657 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: was a girl with over forty videos and all of 658 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: them had hundreds of thousands of views. You start doing 659 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: the math, that can add up really quickly. And that's 660 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: not to say that people's content doesn't have value and 661 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be paid for your work, but especially if 662 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: you are being paid for your work, you should be 663 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: held to hire criticism because now, hey, you're making money 664 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: off of this um. If you want to just report 665 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: on exactly what happened, I can't fault you for doing that, 666 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: and I'm not necessarily mad that you're making money, But 667 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: as soon as you start getting into the conspiratorial, the speculative, 668 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: the outright wrong information, then hey, I'm gonna remind you 669 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: you're making money on this, you should probably try to 670 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: be ethical about it. There was one girl in particular 671 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: who she sends taking her video down and she has apologize, 672 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: so we'll give her credit for that. The girl who 673 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: popularized the theory that Gabby was actually a serial killer. Uh, 674 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: that's horrifying and I cannot imagine her family seeing that. 675 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: I feel bad even mentioning it on a podcast, but 676 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: that that happened. They spread that conspiracy theory and she 677 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 1: took her video down, But it's still all over Twitter. 678 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: It got millions of views. She probably made a decent 679 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: amount of money on that, and it's like, Okay, I 680 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: understand you're sorry. In hindsight, you feel bad, especially after 681 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: they found her remains, but you still made money on that. 682 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: It would be kind of nice if you donated. I 683 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: don't know, that's just me. I'm on this kick lately 684 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: of like, if you have a platform, even if it's 685 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: a platform where you're not expecting to go viral, maybe 686 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: you don't have that many followers, and you just you 687 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: say something and you're like, oh now I've gone viral. 688 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: Platforms come with responsibility, and like it is your responsibility 689 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: to be a good steward of your platform and not 690 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: just use it to spread baseless conspiracy theories. But typically 691 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: that are that harmful to the family of someone who 692 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: has gone missing. Like I just like, it's just completely irresponsible, exactly, 693 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: and it's it's really sad, And it kind of ties 694 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: back into before this whole Gabby situation happened, because I 695 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: don't want to linger on that too much because it's 696 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: kind of a larger conversation about true crime. But I 697 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: was making a couple of videos that, like you had 698 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: said before, this had all happened a few months ago, 699 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: talking about like just some terrible things in the true 700 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: crime community I was finding on the internet and kind 701 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: of going back to like, oh, the Jeffrey Dahmer t 702 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 1: shirts or um, like the serial killer merchandise, these coloring books. Um, 703 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: these people are outright making money off of people's tragedies. 704 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot more black and white 705 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: ethically irresponsible than somebody who's making content that kind of 706 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: just talks about an active case in an active situation. Um. 707 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: So I like criticizing them for how they make their 708 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: money more because it's a lot more like, hey, maybe 709 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 1: we shouldn't make a coloring book of a child predator. Yeah, 710 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I am just gonna say, if you're making 711 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: coloring books glorifying a child predator, you're an asshole. Like 712 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say it should be illegal, but 713 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: you're an asshole, Like they're the jury is the jury 714 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: is not still out. If you're making if you're selling 715 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: shirts that say cute see little slogans about Jeffrey Dahmer, 716 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,439 Speaker 1: you're not my kind of people not so completely agree 717 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: with you there, And I do think it is much clearer, 718 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: like if you're using your platform to make content about 719 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 1: true crime and and you're monetizing them, Okay, like I 720 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: have questions, but all right, but it's so clear when 721 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, I mass produce coloring books, I 722 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: produce T shirts. It's it's such a clearer. I'm glad 723 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: that you compared the two because it's such a clearer 724 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: example of like harm I guess, like making money off 725 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: of someone else's to agedy. Mhm. So in your take, 726 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, if you are someone who wants to make 727 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: true prime content or like just generally like content that 728 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: raises awareness, how can you be sure that you're doing 729 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: that in a way that it's respectful and ethical. So 730 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: I think that was a question I had for myself 731 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: for the longest time, especially because when I started putting 732 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: out criticisms, it wasn't necessarily like the most poignant criticisms. 733 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: It was honestly kind of me ranbling like this is 734 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: kind of messed up. Why does this exist? And then 735 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: I had a lot of people ask me like, oh, well, 736 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: if this isn't ethical, what do you consider to be ethical? 737 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: Is there a way to ethically consume or produce true 738 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: crime content. So I've spent a ton of time mulling 739 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 1: that over, and it's actually been kind of helpful because 740 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,439 Speaker 1: there have been various true crime creators who have reached 741 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: out to me and been like, hey, i've seen your content. 742 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: I one percent agree with you. I don't like that 743 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: kind of stuff either. I'm trying to change it. Can 744 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: I get your support? And I've been very hesitant to 745 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: boost any one specific true crime content creator on my 746 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,439 Speaker 1: own platform, but I have seen people who I think 747 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: are doing it in a slightly better way. I have 748 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: seen a lot of like the most common form of 749 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: true crime content is through a podcast. We've got things 750 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: like My Favorite Murder Last podcast and left all those 751 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 1: incredibly popular podcasts, and there's a lot of smaller ones 752 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: out there that right now that are really trying to 753 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: break through that focus entirely on victim advocacy. They talk 754 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: about police reform, they talk about prison reform, like they're 755 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: truly not just talking about like, hey, it's crazy how 756 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer like murdered a bunch of people a couple 757 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: of decades ago. That's not the entire episode. They're talking about. Hey, um, 758 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer did murder a lot of people a few 759 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: decades ago. Let's talk about, um, why that happened, what 760 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: failing has happened with the police, and why none of 761 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: that has changed yet, and why Milwaukee really needs to 762 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: get their stuff together. And I think that angle of 763 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: the content of what systemically allowed this to happen, what 764 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: created this environment where the things occurred, and what is 765 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: still occurring in our society today, and how can we 766 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: fundamentally change things so that these things do not continue. 767 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: I think is some of the best true crime content 768 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: out there, and I think it does have a genuine 769 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: aim to produce change. So I genuinely love that kind 770 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: of content. And I have overwhelmingly seen that that content 771 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: is predominantly produced by people of color because they have 772 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,759 Speaker 1: that much more detailed, in depth perspective. So pretty much 773 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: any true kind content creator within reason who is a 774 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: person of color, I've immediately felt a stronger attraction to 775 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 1: the content they make because they tend to have that 776 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: heavier focus on that aspect. I am so glad that 777 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: you said that, because you know I'm thinking about it. 778 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,440 Speaker 1: I know that I'm not a huge consumer of true crime, 779 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: but the content that I do consume, I think it's 780 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: got to be content that is comfortable critiquing systems and 781 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: particularly systems of power, and asking questions about how these 782 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: systems fail victims and survivors. I know that so many 783 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,239 Speaker 1: true crime podcast us will just repeat what police officers say, 784 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: or just repeat police reports verbatim, and it can kind 785 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: of become this kind of copaganda where they're just like, oh, 786 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: well the police said this, so that's got to be true. 787 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: And I think good true crime content really has this 788 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 1: opportunity to not just take the police at their word, 789 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: not just take these systems at their word, but instead 790 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: critique these systems and ask questions about how they really 791 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: do fail victims and survivors every day. And so I 792 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: want to be asking questions like what systems works to 793 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,719 Speaker 1: fail Gabby and all the other missing and murdered with 794 00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: women and girls out there, Like how are we supporting 795 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: victims and survivors of domestic abuse and violence? How are 796 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: we making sure that they're protected and actually do have support? 797 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: Are we creating a climate that leads to folks like 798 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: this to be more vulnerable in these kinds of situations? 799 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: Like I want to know what systems failed these victims 800 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: and survivors of violence and crime so that it's not 801 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: repeated and we can actually learn something to make systemic 802 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,800 Speaker 1: change that leads to less tragedy and less harm overall, exactly. 803 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,879 Speaker 1: And I think another aspect from the racial issue that 804 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: I think doesn't get highlighted enough, um at least in 805 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: the white spaces that I tend to find myself in 806 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: a lot, is that, uh, content creators that tend to 807 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: have an incredibly heavy focus on white victims is something 808 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: that needs to be seriously reevaluated, especially when we're talking 809 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: about like national news coverage. I know that a lot 810 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 1: of people will make the argument that in gabby situation, 811 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 1: she was a social media influencer, so that had a 812 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: bit of an effect on how discussed her situation was, 813 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,240 Speaker 1: But we cannot ignore the fact that people of color, 814 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 1: men or LGBT individuals do not get this kind of coverage. 815 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: People who aren't conventionally attractive do not give this kind 816 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: of coverage. And podcasts that go out of their way 817 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: to highlight instances like that, or just not necessarily podcast 818 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: but content in general that goes out of the way 819 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: to highlight those who are less likely to get coverage 820 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: in the first place. I hate to say it, but 821 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: just about everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer. Every just about 822 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: everybody knows about Ted Bundy. They none of the finer specifics. 823 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,280 Speaker 1: But is it necessarily worth your time to go into 824 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: that kind of content over a ten part series when 825 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,280 Speaker 1: you could be spending that time possibly talking about an 826 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: active missing person who could really use a bolster invoice 827 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: and a fresh reminder to their local place department that 828 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: people still care and people are still watching, and just 829 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 1: giving the facts of what's up. Making sure that people 830 00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: are aware, like, hey, this is the individual, looks like 831 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,399 Speaker 1: this is where they were last seen. Would be really 832 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: awesome if people didn't forget that this is still a 833 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: problem because those marginalized individuals never get that kind of attention. 834 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And actually, you know, I've seen recently folks 835 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: making that criticism of the Gabby Potito case, and so 836 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of true crime contact creators sort 837 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,320 Speaker 1: of I will I will say, like trying to respond 838 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: to that. So they'll they'll be talking about Gabby's case 839 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: and then be like, oh, that's similar to this other 840 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: case but then involved a person of color. Or a 841 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, a non white victim or an LGBTQ person, 842 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: and I I'm I'm here for it, Like I mean, like, 843 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: if you have a platform and that you can use 844 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: to get the word out about these cases that are 845 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: not getting as much attention, I think that's great. But 846 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder, like why weren't we doing 847 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: it all along? Like why did it take that nudge 848 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: of like, you know, there are there were seven hundred 849 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: and ten you know, missing and missing and murdered Indigenous 850 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: women and girls in that same area talk about them 851 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: as well, Like I'm happy that folks are boosting this 852 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: because I think I think, you know, it could it 853 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: could really like revive interest, you know, But I just 854 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: have to ask, like why did it Perhaps we should 855 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: be interrogating why it took a nudge? Why it took 856 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,759 Speaker 1: that that kind of that kind of line being sort 857 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 1: of like in the consciousness of how how we're talking 858 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: about this case to make that to have folks that 859 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: are making true crime content start generating awareness about these 860 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:59,280 Speaker 1: other kinds of cases exactly. And I do, very pessimistically 861 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: kind of full expect that once the coverage of Gabby 862 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 1: kind of dies down, that this conversation might die, and 863 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: anybody who's willing to keep that conversation going and not 864 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: letting people forget well, I think that is the biggest 865 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,239 Speaker 1: uphill battle. I think is absolutely noble. Like I hate that, 866 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: uh a woman had to be put in that situation 867 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: and had to get the national coverage she did to 868 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,399 Speaker 1: get people to talk about it again. Um. But there 869 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,240 Speaker 1: have been people of color talking about this the whole time, 870 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 1: and nobody was ever listening to them. And it's so 871 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: frustrating that the only time they get the microphone, even 872 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: if it's for a short period of time, is when 873 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,439 Speaker 1: something tragic and horrific happens to a white woman, like 874 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: nobody nobody deserves to happen. Nobody deserves to have happened 875 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 1: to them, what happened to Gabby um. And it's frustrating 876 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,919 Speaker 1: that the consequence of that is this is the only 877 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: time that people who have been focusing on that issue 878 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: this whole time finally get to speak because they will 879 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: be immediately shot down as a why are you making 880 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 1: this about race? And it's like, I it's it's been 881 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,879 Speaker 1: about this whole time. I've been talking about this whole time. 882 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,440 Speaker 1: A white woman passing away tragically doesn't change what I've 883 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: been saying, Jessica, I thank you so much for your 884 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: work and your perspective. Like I wasn't really sure what 885 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 1: to expect from our conversation because I just had a 886 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: lot of thoughts and like feelings and having trouble this 887 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: even like processing them. But you know, I find that 888 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: your work really helps me articulate my own thoughts and 889 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,840 Speaker 1: helps me process, you know, in highly charged times, helps 890 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: me like process and reconnect to like what I'm actually thinking. 891 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: So thank you for your work. Where can folks follow you? 892 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,919 Speaker 1: And what are you working on these days? So right 893 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: now I have a Hodge Project content of I still 894 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: do make a lot of trafficking awareness videos and I 895 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: talk a lot about trafficking misinformation. That is on my 896 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: TikTok at blood Bath and beyond, and then that is 897 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: my handle on all other socials. Got a story about 898 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,080 Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech? I just want to say hi. 899 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello a tankod dot com. 900 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,240 Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at Tangdi 901 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was 902 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I 903 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. 904 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: Terry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato 905 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,600 Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If 906 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us 907 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I Heeart Radio, 908 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,919 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 909 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts