1
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:21,320
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a reason I

2
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: think that people emphasize in any discussion that they have

3
00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: about marriage, they emphasize the word trust. Why is that

4
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,000
Speaker 1: some people can look at it from the perspective of

5
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,600
Speaker 1: being faithful to your spouse. Some people might consider, well,

6
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 1: do I trust this individual? Do they trust me with

7
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: the finances? While others perhaps have an expected level of

8
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 1: trust when it comes to confidence that you can rely

9
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: on that person, that you can depend upon them when

10
00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: times are really and they do get dark, they do

11
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,959
Speaker 1: get dark. As many people can attest to, trust goes

12
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: even further. What about that kind of trust that you

13
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,319
Speaker 1: have to have when it comes to your help, when

14
00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,360
Speaker 1: it comes to your existence. Today we're going to have

15
00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: a discussion about trust, how much trust you put in

16
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,600
Speaker 1: a person to watch after you and consider your well

17
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,040
Speaker 1: be We're going to talk about a homicide that has

18
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 1: alleged to have been committed by something that seems very benign.

19
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,959
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the death of Joseph Hartsfield.

20
00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Dave mac

21
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 1: my friend crime reporter with Crime Online. It's amazing to me.

22
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,200
Speaker 1: I've worked in medical legal death investigation for many years,

23
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,520
Speaker 1: and I know that most people think at the line

24
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,640
Speaker 1: share of deaths that we handle our homicides, and it's

25
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,320
Speaker 1: not that's something the police do. We handle all the homicides,

26
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: but we also handle everything else. And to be a

27
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 1: really good medical legal death investigator, you have to want

28
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,919
Speaker 1: to understand the mechanisms of natural disease pathology. And what

29
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,239
Speaker 1: I mean by that is that those things that bring

30
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,320
Speaker 1: about death from a natural perspective, and heart disease is

31
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,080
Speaker 1: the first thing that comes to mind. But it's amazing

32
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,640
Speaker 1: nowadays how many people are diabetic.

33
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 2: When I first saw this story, Joe, my first question

34
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,880
Speaker 2: was how this transpired, how long it took? What goes

35
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 2: into the complications surrounding insulin. I mean, we know people

36
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 2: die from diabetes. My grandfather was diabetic, and after having

37
00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: his leg amputated and other things, he continued to go

38
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 2: down a path that eventually led to his death. In

39
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,639
Speaker 2: this case, Sarah Hartsfield and her husband Joseph, we have

40
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 2: insulin as being part of the death. Am I am

41
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 2: I right in saying.

42
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, You're absolutely right.

43
00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 2: Okay, how can something that's supposed to be a lifesaver

44
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 2: turn into a mechanism of death.

45
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 1: It's almost as though when an individual is diagnosed with diabetes,

46
00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:22,079
Speaker 1: they are first off, it's not a death sentence. It's

47
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 1: something that you know, given modern medicine, that people can

48
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,600
Speaker 1: live with and can have robust lives. You just got

49
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 1: to be really careful with what you're putting into your body.

50
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,200
Speaker 1: Life and moderation. I think it really draws people back

51
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,160
Speaker 1: to being centered in their life with what they consume,

52
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 1: how much they consume, and also how are you going

53
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 1: to regulate it? And you know, there's any number of

54
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 1: ways that you regulated because the idea here is that

55
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,440
Speaker 1: the individual that is faced with this diagnosis is now

56
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 1: in a position for the rest of their lives that

57
00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: they're going to have to monitor their blood sugar levels.

58
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: And this is done in a number of ways. We've

59
00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 1: seen people that do the fingersticks that's been done for

60
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,840
Speaker 1: years and years, where you get that sample of blood

61
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 1: and it goes onto a meter. There's actually an indwelling

62
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: monitors that you can have that are placed in these

63
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 1: out of view locations on the body that will send

64
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 1: signals to either a meter that you keep on your

65
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: person or maybe in your home or even on your phone.

66
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,560
Speaker 1: There's actually apps for this now, and it will set

67
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,279
Speaker 1: off an alarm if your insulin levels begin to spike

68
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,600
Speaker 1: or to drop down desperately. What the individuals are faced

69
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,919
Speaker 1: with is not just the diagnosis, but they're faced with

70
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 1: the fact that they're going to learn a lot about medicine.

71
00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 1: Whereas you know some people, you know, they know that

72
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: they have a disease and they have to maintain a

73
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 1: particular healthy lifestyle. But now you're kind of playing junior chemist.

74
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: You're having to keep all of these things in balance

75
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,320
Speaker 1: at a molecular level, and it's a daunting task for anyone.

76
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,359
Speaker 1: The condition itself is so very subtle in many ways

77
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: that many folks don't realize that they're about to have

78
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: some kind of symptom that's going to pop up and

79
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,600
Speaker 1: is really going to wreak havoc in their life. So

80
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,160
Speaker 1: they have to be aware. They have to be sitting

81
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: sitting on go ready to interdict on their own behalf.

82
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to. You have to, I

83
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,280
Speaker 1: hate to use the term advocate for yourself. It's not

84
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,040
Speaker 1: about that. It's about, you know, treat yourself in those moments,

85
00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,280
Speaker 1: and people go through education programs and that sort of

86
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,200
Speaker 1: thing to do it. So the fact that mister Hartsfield

87
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: was in this position, it's not something that he had

88
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 1: just come to at this point in his life. It's

89
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,479
Speaker 1: something that he had been having to be monitored for

90
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 1: a number of years probably, and he's relying on his

91
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: wife to help him out.

92
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 2: He was forty six years old, Joseph was and you

93
00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 2: mentioned it wasn't something that just popped up one day.

94
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,119
Speaker 2: He actually had been living with it for a while

95
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,280
Speaker 2: and Sarah was kind of brought into the fold here

96
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 2: of managing his diabetes. When you look at this case,

97
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,599
Speaker 2: the death of Joseph Hartsfield in and of itself was

98
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 2: not suspicious. It was when the police looked into his

99
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 2: wife how she was reacting, because that was her reactions

100
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 2: weren't something they were familiar with. And do you take

101
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,600
Speaker 2: into account the people closest to the victim and how

102
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 2: they are acting reacting to the situation that's going on, Yeah,

103
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 2: you do.

104
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,960
Speaker 1: It kind of integrates itself into your interactions with a

105
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 1: family to kind of begin to understand what are their

106
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,039
Speaker 1: responses to these horrible events. And it look not one

107
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 1: size fits all with families and the way they react

108
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,159
Speaker 1: to death. I've mentioned before that I've seen people become

109
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 1: almost catatonic. Literally they've got the thousand yard stare, they

110
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,119
Speaker 1: won't respond to you, their numb on a very deep level.

111
00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 1: And other people I've seen people shrug their shoulders and laugh.

112
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 1: If you can imagine that, and it does happen, then

113
00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: you have people that show what psychologists and people like

114
00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 1: that will say an appropriate amount of grief. And I

115
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 1: don't know how you really take the measure of that necessarily,

116
00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,080
Speaker 1: but you get this feeling. I think when you're an

117
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 1: investigator and you begin to watch people, you have other

118
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 1: cases that you judge these individuals based upon what have

119
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,840
Speaker 1: been the reactions of subjects that I have total these

120
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,000
Speaker 1: things to in the past. When you're discussing this with them,

121
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 1: you kind of measure it by that benchmark, taking into

122
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 1: account whatever the relationship is to this person. Is it something,

123
00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,040
Speaker 1: for instance, where you have a family member that comes

124
00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: to a home and finds their elderly parent has passed away.

125
00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,840
Speaker 1: What's their level of expression with that. One of the

126
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,720
Speaker 1: most glaring things that you hear is I just talked

127
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 1: to them the other day. They seem fine. Or she

128
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 1: had asked me to come over, but I just I

129
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: didn't have enough time, and they're weeping over that. You

130
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 1: get those kinds of responses, and you take all of

131
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 1: those factors into consideration. Couple that with things like their

132
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: reaction when they see the body. Maybe they're in the

133
00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 1: room with you as you're examining the body. That does happen?

134
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 1: What were their responses immediately upon finding the individual? What

135
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 1: were the steps that you took. Did they wait a

136
00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 1: long time? Did they respond immediately to finding the individual down?

137
00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: Did they call other people and this happened. Sometimes you'll

138
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,439
Speaker 1: have family members that will discover their loved ones deceased,

139
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,439
Speaker 1: and they won't call nine eleven. They'll actually call a

140
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 1: sister or brother, or an aunt or an uncle before

141
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,960
Speaker 1: they'll ever call nine to eleven. And they have to

142
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 1: be told by one of these peripheral actors, and they're saying,

143
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,439
Speaker 1: you need to get off the phone and call nine

144
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,040
Speaker 1: eleven and have them come to the scene. You don't

145
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,720
Speaker 1: know if that's because they were delaying perhaps that contact

146
00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:02,000
Speaker 1: with people that could provide life saving measures, or if

147
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: this is just a normal reaction. You don't normally call

148
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,320
Speaker 1: none one one you call people in your immediate circle

149
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,200
Speaker 1: that are going to comfort you and advise you in

150
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 1: those sorts of things.

151
00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,120
Speaker 2: Joseph Hartsfield died as a direct result of insulin as

152
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:22,199
Speaker 2: complications is how it was worthy complications from an insulin issue.

153
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 2: They started looking into it. Wait a minute, Sarah was

154
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,800
Speaker 2: not acting the way they thought was appropriate to the situation.

155
00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,600
Speaker 2: And the sheriff looks into it and says, wait a minute,

156
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 2: how many hours did you wait before you called for

157
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: help with them. It's not like diabetes just showed up yesterday.

158
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,679
Speaker 2: So they knew from a very early standpoint that something

159
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 2: was not quite right.

160
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 1: Mister Hartsfield actually had an alarm that would go off.

161
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,120
Speaker 1: There was an indicator that there was something wrong, and

162
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: of course the police believed that there was something sinister

163
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 1: going on. I guess probably my favorite Indiana Jones movie

164
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: is probably the Last Crusade. I love the spiritual element

165
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,720
Speaker 1: of it. I certainly love it when you know they

166
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,840
Speaker 1: finally make their way into the chamber and the villain

167
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: drinks from the wrong chalice, and the old knight is

168
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 1: sitting there and as the guy kind of melts away,

169
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: he looks at Indiana Jones and he says he chose poorly.

170
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: I think about that in the case of mister Hartsfield's passing,

171
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 1: there is something that's kind of ominous about this person

172
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 1: that he made a choice to marry the person of

173
00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: Sarah Hartsfield. I'd say that he probably dave. He probably

174
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 1: we'll chose poorly.

175
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 2: Sarah Hartsfield and Joseph Hartsville got together about the same age.

176
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,319
Speaker 2: They have had different backgrounds, in particular with Sarah Hartsfield

177
00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 2: when you look at the partners up until the time

178
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 2: that she and Joseph Hartsville got together in February of

179
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. They met online, by the way, something

180
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 2: that in the last twenty years has become a real thing.

181
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,360
Speaker 2: But when you meet online, oftentimes you don't know a

182
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 2: lot about the background of the individual. You only know

183
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,320
Speaker 2: what they let you in on, what they tell you about.

184
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,520
Speaker 2: And that's a little different than when you're dating somebody

185
00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,479
Speaker 2: and you know a little bit about their background geographically,

186
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 2: might be from the same area, you have some common interests,

187
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,160
Speaker 2: in common background, and you can share a lot of

188
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,160
Speaker 2: these things. Well, they met online, and maybe she was

189
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 2: able to spin a story of her background because Sarah

190
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,200
Speaker 2: Hartsfield had five husbands. Things started in the mid nineties,

191
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 2: from husband number one to husband number five and a fiance.

192
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 2: There's it seemed to be an escalation of pain inflicted

193
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 2: on the partner. In her first marriage, there was some

194
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,560
Speaker 2: domestic abuse. She actually was arrested in the first year

195
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 2: of that marriage her first husband for fighting. Charges will

196
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 2: drop later, but that's the start of her marriage career.

197
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 2: When you go through the years of her dating and

198
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,880
Speaker 2: all the way to twenty eighteen, where now she's on

199
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 2: husband number three and a half number four and engaged

200
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,800
Speaker 2: to a guy, David Bragg. At the time, she was

201
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,280
Speaker 2: known as Sarah Donahue, and she shot and killed David

202
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,280
Speaker 2: Bragg during an argument that got physical. She claimed self defense.

203
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 2: No charges were ever filed. That case has since been reopened.

204
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,839
Speaker 2: So we go to Sarah Hartsfield, married to Joseph Hartsfield.

205
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,200
Speaker 2: He dies and the police find out that he is

206
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 2: bad shape. For a number of hours, she doesn't call

207
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,320
Speaker 2: for help. She doesn't call nine to one one. She

208
00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 2: has been living with this man with diabetes for every year,

209
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,000
Speaker 2: day in and day, helping him manage his diabetes. But

210
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,640
Speaker 2: she allowed the man to suffer for hours before ever

211
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 2: calling for help, and that's where the sheriff said things

212
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,720
Speaker 2: just didn't add up. But the sheriff said, if the

213
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,240
Speaker 2: hospital didn't call us, our officers didn't get involved, make

214
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,960
Speaker 2: good decisions, we would not be here. And potentially she

215
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 2: could have gotten away with murder because it was at

216
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,000
Speaker 2: the very beginning the hospital staff going to the deputy

217
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,200
Speaker 2: said hey, man, there's something not right here, and the

218
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,080
Speaker 2: deputy looking into it, and they start following her background

219
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 2: and they see this escalation from domestic violence in her

220
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,040
Speaker 2: first marriage to killing a man with a gun, and

221
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,120
Speaker 2: now you've got another dead guy, this time from insulin.

222
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,439
Speaker 2: So they opened the case. They started digging in. How

223
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,920
Speaker 2: can you tell that somebody has died from complications due

224
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 2: to insulin? What does diabetes do to a person, and

225
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 2: how does it lead to this type of death?

226
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,720
Speaker 1: Excellent question, And this is all going to be revealed

227
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 1: that autopsy because the medical examiner in this case conducted

228
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,840
Speaker 1: their examination, They had their suspicions. And do you know

229
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,959
Speaker 1: how I can tell that anytime you see an initial

230
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,680
Speaker 1: cause of death listed as undetermined, you know that something

231
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 1: else is going on in the background. They're seeing something

232
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: that has actually occurred that could be indicative of more

233
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,880
Speaker 1: than meets the eye. Here's one of the problems that

234
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: I have with the way this case was initially handled.

235
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 1: For years, we've seen images of a vial of insulin.

236
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 1: It's a separate vial. It looks like just kind of

237
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,120
Speaker 1: any other injectable that you might see, say at emergency

238
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 1: room or doctor's office anywhere, and then you take what

239
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: people refer to as an insulin needle. It's a very

240
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 1: fine point because it just goes into what's referred to

241
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,880
Speaker 1: as SubQ fat, which is that layer of fat that's

242
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: just below the skin, and as the insulin is injected,

243
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 1: it's kind of gradually absorbed into the system and becomes

244
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,840
Speaker 1: part and parcel of regulating the metabolism, because that's one

245
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 1: of the things that's going on. You know, Insulin is

246
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 1: actually a hormone is produced by the pancreas, and these

247
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 1: little islets they don't function correctly for any number of reasons.

248
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 1: You can have kind of type one diabetes that people

249
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,080
Speaker 1: come into and refer to many times as juvenile diabetes,

250
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,520
Speaker 1: and then you have type two which comes along and

251
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: it can result from any number of factors. Obesity is

252
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,720
Speaker 1: one of those things that comes into play. Certain people

253
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 1: have indicated that there might be a connection with some

254
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: of the foods that we ingest nowadays as opposed in

255
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 1: the past. Some people think that that's because our food

256
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,360
Speaker 1: is so highly processed now that that might be one

257
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 1: of the issues that comes up. There are certain medications

258
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,080
Speaker 1: that some believe that bring about diabetes as well that

259
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: we take. But at autopsy you would draw blood and

260
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 1: there will be tests that are done and conducted. The

261
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 1: medical examiner saw something in there that gave them an

262
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 1: indication that he was in a critical state as far

263
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 1: as his diabetes. One of the things that was indicated

264
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: at the scene that I really have trouble with is

265
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 1: that Dave there we're referred to as insulin pens for

266
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,360
Speaker 1: folks that have never seen one. They actually do look

267
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 1: like pins with a cap on them, okay, and it's

268
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 1: got a graduated dial on it that tells you the

269
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,440
Speaker 1: number of units that you're going to inject into that

270
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 1: sub Q fatty area generally around the stomach. You can

271
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: dial up the amount of insulin you're going to take

272
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 1: in Dave there were eight of these on his nightstand

273
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: and they weren't collected at that time.

274
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 2: Well, we'd n't expect to find well.

275
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: For one, if you've for one, you have to keep

276
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 1: insulin refrigerated. Man, And that's that's a I mean, it's

277
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,960
Speaker 1: it's staple up to a point. Now. I guess if

278
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 1: you were living in a house at the temperature at

279
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: sixty two degrees, perhaps even then you don't want to

280
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,919
Speaker 1: run the risk. I've gone out to many scenes over

281
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 1: the course of my career, and you know what the

282
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 1: most common location is. You'll you'll find insulin stored in

283
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 1: and a refrigerator.

284
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 2: Take a while, guess I'm butter.

285
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You nailed it. You nailed it. Yeah,

286
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: actually in the butter container. And the reason is is

287
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,120
Speaker 1: that many times it's at eye level, depending upon obviously

288
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 1: the configuration of the refrigerator, but it's right there. Diabetics

289
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 1: don't keep their butter and their insulin side by side.

290
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: But what you do is that you can visualize it,

291
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 1: and you can see it in at eye level with

292
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 1: the old vials. You can see how much insulin you

293
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 1: have remaining. Okay, it's a fragile medication and something that

294
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 1: you and so I couldn't really understand why it was there.

295
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 1: Would he stockpile them after they were being used, perhaps,

296
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, just to keep kind of understand the pacing

297
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 1: which he was using it. You know, when do I

298
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 1: need to reorder admit the request for a refill at

299
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,920
Speaker 1: this point in time. If a cop a cop shows

300
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 1: up at a scene, say it's a young uniform officer, which,

301
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 1: by the way, you're not going to call the medical

302
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 1: examiner necessarily immediately as soon as you find somebody deceased,

303
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 1: particularly if they've got a long standing medical history. I've

304
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,919
Speaker 1: taken any number of calls over the phone from family

305
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,800
Speaker 1: members that awaken the morning they find their loved one deceased,

306
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 1: and young police officer will be dispatched as a result

307
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,840
Speaker 1: of nine to eleven being called, and they'll be at

308
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 1: the scene and they'll say, well, yeah, investigative Morgan, I

309
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,879
Speaker 1: see this medication out here. The wife is telling me

310
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,159
Speaker 1: got a long history of diabetes or heart disease, or

311
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,199
Speaker 1: you know, he's being treated for all these other things.

312
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 1: If the medical examiner is working in another case, they

313
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 1: might say, well, we're going to have the funeral home

314
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: bring the body by the emmy's office before the funeral

315
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,719
Speaker 1: home for preparation will draw talks on them, do an

316
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,879
Speaker 1: external exam, and then release them from the medical examiner's office.

317
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 1: And in some cases they'll release the body directly from

318
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,399
Speaker 1: the scene. Generally that requires a visit by the EMMY

319
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,920
Speaker 1: investigator or the corner to come out and take a look.

320
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 1: So I found that quite fascinating. In this case, she's

321
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 1: also got an alarm on her phone day that went off.

322
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about it. If you're connected electronically to

323
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: a censor that is giving you readings on the person

324
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: that essentially have agreed to take care of through this

325
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 1: marriage contract and you're not taking care of them, that

326
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: suspicious in and of itself. When they begin to kind

327
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: of dig into her behaviors how long it took her

328
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 1: to call nine to eleven. You have these kind of

329
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: active and passive events that happened many times with alleged homicides.

330
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: If we think about kind of in an active phase,

331
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 1: that's an individual that picks up an instrument and can

332
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,919
Speaker 1: bludge in somebody to death or shoot them or as

333
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 1: this accused Miss Hartsville had done years before with this

334
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,040
Speaker 1: other individual shoes involved when she shot them. That's an

335
00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 1: active event. Okay, Then you have these more passive things,

336
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 1: because you kind of if you're questioning these types of people,

337
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: you can kind of look at them and go, well,

338
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: the alarm goes off all the time, which he actually

339
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: stated it goes off all the time. And I really

340
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 1: wasn't paying real close attention to this. And yeah, I've

341
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 1: gotten up and given him some juice. I'd try to

342
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,440
Speaker 1: offer him some jam, these sorts of things. So now

343
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: you're thinking, from an investigative standpoint, does this marry up

344
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: with what would be considered their norm. Yeah, the alarm

345
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:28,719
Speaker 1: goes off all the time. I've gotten now where I

346
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: ignore it or is it something that is darker where

347
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,160
Speaker 1: you're purposing to weaponize insulin or the use of insulin.

348
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 2: I'm really stuck on the eight pens on the nightstand,

349
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: and we've got the hospital calling. In this particular case

350
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 2: with Joseph Hartsfield, the hospital calls the Sheriff's department says, hey,

351
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: we've got a suspicious illness. Joseph Hartsfield had not died yet.

352
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: The hospital called and said, we have a suspicious illness.

353
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 2: And because his insulin levels are extremely high, what would

354
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: happen with somebody who is insulin dependent diabetic if they

355
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 2: were given too much insulin over a period of time.

356
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: The individual's going down a very dark path. And I

357
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: literally mean that you can wind up in a coma

358
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: as a result of it, where everything kind of shuts down.

359
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: And when you've got somebody that has they go into hypoglycemia,

360
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: that means their sugar is dropping precipitously. You'll see them

361
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 1: where they'll get irritable, they can get double vision. Many times,

362
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,560
Speaker 1: they're sweating profusely, they're kind of disoriented to time and space,

363
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: they're dizzy, They a little bit of confusion, and they

364
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 1: get the shakes too, pretty bad. But when you get

365
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 1: up into that upper range, and sometimes that can be

366
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 1: moderated just by I don't know if you've you've ever

367
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 1: heard there are diabetics that will carry like a pack

368
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: of mints perhaps in their in their pocket, and if

369
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: they feel their their bloods is beginning to drop, you know,

370
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,960
Speaker 1: they'll pop a mint in their mouth and it'll give

371
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: them just enough sugar to kind of readjust Some people

372
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: use things like raisins, for instance, if they don't want

373
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: to use some kind of highly refined sugar. But when

374
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: you start to get off into this severe level of hypoglypcemia,

375
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: they get into a state which is referred to as

376
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: insolent shock. It's very dangerous because it can lead to

377
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: you can have seizures, they certainly can't focus on anything.

378
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 1: You'll have like slurred speech, they have their uneven gait,

379
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: it's hard for them to actually ambulate, to walk, that

380
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And then finally they'll go into an

381
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 1: unconscious state and then that again goes into this area

382
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 1: of being comatose. And that's essentially what had happened with

383
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,640
Speaker 1: mister Hartsfield at this point in time. He kind of

384
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: was in this vegetative state in the hospital. And at

385
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: that point you begin to try to understand why, why

386
00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: suddenly is this fellow who's obviously you've been dealing with

387
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,239
Speaker 1: diabetes for a protracted period of time, Why is it

388
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: that suddenly he kind of falls off the cliff. There's

389
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: been no prior indication that his medication needed to be

390
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: adjusted or anything like this, so why now? And when

391
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: you begin to dig into this as a medical investigator,

392
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: you begin to see that there are some other things

393
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: that are there that might give you pause that this

394
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: case needs to be looked into a bit more in depth.

395
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: There's homicides, and then there are those cases that don't

396
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: really know if there are homicides, and how do we

397
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: define a homicide. We always have to return back to that,

398
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: and I will on my podcast. I will always remind

399
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: you of that, and that is, if we're talking about

400
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: a homicide, that is the death of an individual at

401
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: the hand of another. And that's very simple. It's a

402
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: very simple way of understanding this. And you're not sitting

403
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: in judgment as a court of Lawwood, You're merely stating

404
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: a fact that there is at least an indication that

405
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: this individual may have died at the hand of another.

406
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: But in a case like mister Hartsville's death, this is

407
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: something that's going to require a bit more rigor, it's

408
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: going to require a bit more digging into, as opposed

409
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,120
Speaker 1: to something that might be more trauma related like a gunshot,

410
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: wound or a knife.

411
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 2: In this alleged murder, and again alleged because she has

412
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: not been convicted and she says she's not guilty. My

413
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: bad decision was picking bad husbands. That's what she actually

414
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: has said, paraphrasing. But when I was looking back at this,

415
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 2: she was an army and so it's her first husband. Well,

416
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: his best friend, also in the army, was Sarah Hartsfield's

417
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: second husband. Okay, so the first two marriages of her

418
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: life were military. Well, I wondered about when people in

419
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: the military have an affair, aren't there issues they deal

420
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: with with the army that goes beyond just regularly we're

421
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 2: getting a divorce because here she cheated.

422
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. And I think a lot of it

423
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: comes down to, you know, whether or not Jack, who's

424
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: the judge Advocate General, is actually going to charge somebody

425
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: because did you know, Dave, you can actually be charged

426
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: with adultery. Isn't a fence in the military, And there's

427
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why it is. It falls under

428
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: what's called the Article one point thirty four. If you

429
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: engage in adulterous behavior while you're in the military, under

430
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: Uniform Code of Military Justice, you can be charged. And

431
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: there's apparently in her history there's there's multiple episodes of this.

432
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: You're held to this kind of higher standard, and there's

433
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes are made faithfulness and being in

434
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: the military and choices that people make, particularly when they're young.

435
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 1: But this is a harsh, cold reality that I don't

436
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: think many people are aware of It's not like being

437
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: in civilian world. It's a completely different justice system. And

438
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: there's evidence that she they Miss Hartsfield as she's known now,

439
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: was never interdicted for this behavior. Perhaps in the military.

440
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 1: I really wonder if that may have played a role,

441
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: because she wound up, according to reports, retiring from the military.

442
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: That means that she made it through to the end

443
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: where she received was referred to as a d D

444
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: two fourteen, which you know, means that you've served, you've

445
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: served honorably, and you're there honorably therefore honorably discharged from

446
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: the military. She was an enlisted person. That begs the question.

447
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: And also these domestic violence issues that have arisen, and

448
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: this has been a problem in the military. You know,

449
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: over the years, you have people that don't get along well,

450
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: they wind up fighting, there might be children involved, and

451
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 1: the military looks at this or as in the past,

452
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: looked at it as kind of a cohesion issue. If

453
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: an individual winds up committing an adultery or winds up

454
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: involved in domestic abuse, that disrupts the form and function

455
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: of the military. You know how it's going to operate,

456
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: because if you've got spouses that are engaged in adulterous behavior,

457
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: particularly if it's between two individuals that are currently serving.

458
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: That creates a problem with uniticohesion, problems with people getting along,

459
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: being able to serve along side one another, particularly if

460
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: you're called to go fight. It's very dangerous set of circumstances.

461
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: And it seems as though that miss Hartsfield, she lived

462
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: kind of on the edge throughout her life.

463
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: In this particular case where you've got a suspicious illness

464
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: and later deemed a suspicious death, do you, as a

465
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: forensic individual, as you look into the case right in

466
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: front of you, you're looking at a person who was

467
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: in a really bad way physically for a number of

468
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: hours before the person who has has sworn to love,

469
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: honor and chairs calls for help. Do you not peel

470
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: back that onion and start going okay, Husband number one,

471
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: Husband number two, three, four, Oh wait a minute, we've

472
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: got a fiance in here who's also dead. There's like

473
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: an escalation of starting down here where you have a

474
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: fight in the second marriage that leads to somebody spending

475
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 2: the night in jail to a fiance being shot in

476
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: what is that first determined to be self defense, but

477
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: later it's like, well maybe not. And now we actually

478
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: have somebody who has gone from suspicious illness to suspicious

479
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: death that wasn't just pulling out a gun and shooting

480
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 2: and saying it was self defense. That had to have

481
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: been planned.

482
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, allegedly it would have had to have been planned.

483
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: And it's certainly something that there's been evidence of other

484
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: people that have done this over the years, that have

485
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: used this methodology to bring about the death of an

486
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: individual that is in their charge, if you will. And

487
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's easy to I think that it's very

488
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: easy to kind of of utilized that as a tool

489
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: of death, if you will. And it's very passive, isn't it.

490
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: It's very kind of camouflaged. This individual that has this

491
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: disease is at the mercy of individuals that they're trusting, right,

492
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: And so in law enforcement and investigations, you don't necessarily

493
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: go out looking for this type of modality when it

494
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: comes to a cause of death. Obviously the fallback position

495
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: for everybody, and I'm guilty of it too. You think

496
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: about this huge level of violence, right, how many violent

497
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: cases have we covered on body backs? Certainly more than

498
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: anything that say where a medical condition could be utilized

499
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: as a weapon. There are a number of cases that

500
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: are out there where people are, particularly in the medical field,

501
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: where people refer to and I know you've heard this

502
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: over the course of your career. I know you've heard

503
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: this term angels of death, where individuals are in clinical

504
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: settings where they take people's lives by using medication to

505
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: facilitate this, or even worse, where they fail to render aid.

506
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: And you'll see that happen as well. And it's a

507
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: very you know, you talk about peeling the onion, and

508
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to conduct an investigation when you don't

509
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: necessarily have this level of sophistication when it comes to

510
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: medical conditions and understanding disease pathology. And that's why it's

511
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: so very important that the medical examiner get involved in

512
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: these cases. In the corner's office get involved in these

513
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: cases because a case like this Dave is going to

514
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: require a deep dive that not many are equipped to

515
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: deal with. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body

516
00:30:44,880 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: bags as