WEBVTT - This Is How New York City Gets Its Produce 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:14.200 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:16.600 I'm Jill Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.959 Tracy, I just want to start this episode by thanking 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.160 you for those tomatoes you brought me the other day. 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.400 How many tomato references are we going to make it 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.120 in our episodes going forward? How long can we stretch 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:28.520 this out? 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.560 I don't know, something hit me when, like in my 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.200 mid thirties. You know, it's like when you're a kid, 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:37.680 the whole excitement of summer is like not being in school, 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.080 and then you get a little older and the whole 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.040 fun of summer is I don't know, like travelering or 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.360 partying or something. And then something hit me in my 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.760 late mid thirties or late thirties where it's like the 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:49.360 best part of summer is like really fresh tomatoes. 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:52.120 I don't know if that's really sad or great that 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.880 the thing we look forward to in our old age 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.240 is fresh tomatoes. But I'm glad I could do that 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:57.800 for you, Joe. 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.280 Yeah. So for listeners who don't know, Tracy hits a 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:02.880 garden and she posted some tomato pictures and I was like, 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:05.840 I need some. So Tracey brought some Anyway, they're the 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.840 best produce I've had in a while. And I'm just 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:12.319 gonna say, and this is a contested point, but there 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.000 are people who claim that, by and large, the quality 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.120 of produce in New York City is not what they 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:19.520 would expect in a world classic. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.840 Oh now wait a second, Joe, you're attributing this to 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.839 other people. Now you say that New York City doesn't 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:25.680 have good produce. 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.600 I'm just parroting something I saw. And some people say, like, all, 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:31.840 the quality of onions here is terrible. I actually do. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.520 I kind of agree with that. With the onions, by 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.000 and large, I don't really notice it, but I know 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.840 this is popular. I searched on Reddit a bunch of 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.000 people said this, What do people say it? On Twitter? 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.800 There are some New York City produce is controversial. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.120 So I don't cook enough in New York to have 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.000 an educated opinion about this. I will say one thing 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.280 I noticed moving from Hong Kong to New York is 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.600 it's almost an inverse picture. So in Hong Kong you 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:04.160 have incredibly chack and incredibly fresh, very accessible fruit and 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.560 vegetables everywhere. You have the wet markets and things like that, 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.120 and meat is very expensive, whereas when you come to 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.080 the States, you can buy like a twenty pound brisket, 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.720 it doesn't actually cost that much. But getting a bag 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:20.760 of onions is it seems more difficult. It's almost reversed. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.720 That is interesting, and it does raise this question. And 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.840 you know, it's like a miracle of a modern economic 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.960 supply chains, capitalism, what have you that we can be 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.799 in this dent area and by and large we get produce, 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.160 but I don't know anything about where it comes from. Really, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.840 I don't know, Like I don't know anything about the 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.440 supply chain of produce and so whether it's good or bad. 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.320 And you know, New York is obviously so diverse in 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.760 like the types of places one could go grocery shopping. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.959 So you have the local change, you have Whole Foods, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:50.840 you have the China. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.680 See what I was going to say, This is what 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.000 I find quite interesting about New York is you do 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.840 have that mix of different retailers, so everything from the 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:03.040 big chains like Whole Foods that people are probably familiar with, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.040 all the way down to independent carts basically selling fruit 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:07.959 and vegetables. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.160 Yeah, it's super interesting. And I literally live on a 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:14.000 block and at the corner of my block. There's a 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.280 guy twenty four seven three sixty five who sells produce, 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:19.880 and they say, I don't know how it does it. 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.519 I should probably just go up and like chat with 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:22.799 him one day about his business. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:23.639 Get him on the podcast. 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.120 Yeah, maybe he'll come on the podcast. It's a great idea. Anyway, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.680 produce in New York City so many interesting questions, so 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.360 much controversy, et cetera. I want to know, like how 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:35.720 New York City gets its produce and where it's coming from, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.120 and whether the reputation in some corners is a deserved 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:39.840 or undeserved. 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.680 I will say the hardest thing about bringing you those 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.200 tomatoes was the actual transportation and figuring out a way 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.080 to bring them into New York without getting them super bruised. 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:50.680 So it seems challenging. 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.400 When you brought them that morning, they had like this nice, 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.000 sort of like crisp fresh field of them. And then 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:57.440 I left him on my desk and I brought him 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.240 home that night. Oh no, no, no, they're fine. They 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.920 were still delicious. I kind of like the cold tomatoes. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.480 But I think we're going to use the term the 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.360 cold chain a lot in this episode. And what is 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.520 the cold chain and what does that mean and how 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.920 is that different from other supply chain Let's do it well. 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.839 I'm really excited. We do, in fact have the perfect guests, 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.640 someone who knows all about food produce supply chains. We're 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.480 going to be speaking with Karen karp of Karen carp 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:27.919 and Partners about how New York City gets its produce. Karen, 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.160 thank you so much for joining. 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.000 Us, My pleasure to be here. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.240 So so many different questions. I could start by asking 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.320 you whether the quality of produce in New York City 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.400 is an undeserved reputation. I could start by asking you, like, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.400 you know, what does your background? What is Karen Carpon Partners. 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.320 I'm just going to start though, what is the cold chain? 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:51.279 The cold chain is really a twentieth century invention which 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:57.560 allowed produce from all over the United States and Mexico 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.280 for example, and around the world to get to New 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.520 York in a food safety safe way, in other words, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.680 so that produce wouldn't rot on the way from California 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:11.119 to New York. As an example, in fact, Iceberg lettuce 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.479 was the first product that was transported from California to 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:18.800 New York in a train. A railcar that was literally 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.000 packed with ice, and thus it got that let us 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.160 got its name Iceberg because it was packed in ice 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:25.719 to get its way to New York City. 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.000 So I already learned something. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.360 The cold chain I'm here to teach you. The coal 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:37.200 chain basically says. It indicates that from the time a product, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.479 let's say a fruit or vegetable is picked in the 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.800 field or from a tree or a bush if it's 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.080 a berry, and we are in BlackBerry season, so we 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.680 can talk about blackberries as well as fresh tomatoes on 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.839 this episode, from the moment that it is harvested, how 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.080 it is handled in a way that it gets to 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.839 not only a city like New York, but gets through 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.760 the channels in New York that make that iceberg, lettuce 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.159 or tomato results in the delivery of that piece of 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.320 fruit or vegetable to a supermarket shelf, to a restaurant, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.839 to a bodega, to your corner produce cart. And the 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.760 whole notion of keep of creating a cold chain and 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.240 keeping it intact from point A to point B right 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.360 the fields in California to your produce cart or your 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.000 refrigerator at home, is to make sure that the product 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.600 doesn't break down in quality, that bacteria doesn't get into it, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.960 that it doesn't lose its flavor, and as I said earlier, 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.200 that there are no food born illnesses that you could 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:40.000 get from consuming something as fragile as lettuce that is 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:41.440 grown three thousand miles away. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.960 So we talked just then about the cold chain, the 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.760 temperature being important keeping things fresh. How big a factor 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:48.599 is time. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.640 Time is the enemy when you're transporting food, because if 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.640 we're talking about fresh produce, which I think is the topic, Yeah, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.839 well let's stick to that. You know, time is the 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.440 enemy because the minute something is picked, it starts to rot. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.920 I mean, that's like a very overstatement of the. 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:07.599 We're all dying from the day we're born. 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:08.560 Well, kind of. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.240 Quite that grim, sorry, but it's kind of the same, right, Yeah. 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.440 I mean I actually said something like that to a 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.360 really good friend yesterday on my mother's eighty seventh birthday. 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.320 So we were talking about that. But yeah, so basically, 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.040 the minute something is picked is it starts to decay 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:29.760 and it starts to break down. And so the cold 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.400 chain was created. And the cold chain really is just 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.560 a bunch of different mechanisms. It can be ice, it 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:39.160 can be refrigeration, sometimes it's gas, depending on what the 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.880 product is, what temperature it needs to be kept at, 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.400 the duration, the duration for which the product needs to 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.480 be in transport, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.360 when the cold chain is broken again, going back to 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.280 that example from California to New York, when the cold 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.880 chain is broken, that deterioration can set in really quickly. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.520 Even if the refrigeration starts up again and it gets here, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.240 that product will not be the product that was promised 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:06.520 to the buyer. 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:10.840 So now we are understand sort of the very general 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.480 overview of what the cold chain is and what it 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.480 aims to do. Let's zoom out, what is your background, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.080 what is Karen Carpon Partners and what do you do 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.400 and what is your role within the sort of produce 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:24.680 food delivery ecosystem. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.360 Sure, so, I founded Karen Carpon Partners in nineteen ninety 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.280 so a little over thirty three years ago, initially as 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.679 just a small boutique restaurant consulting firm, because I had 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.760 been working for about sixteen years or so before that 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.960 in the restaurant business managing restaurants. Putting together a group 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.800 of restaurants, building that group from from one to seven 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:48.960 restaurants in the late nineteen eighties and then then thin 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:50.600 it was I felt like it was time for me 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.240 to do something else. And there were two directions that 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.880 I could have gone gone into. I could have gone 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.160 to work for Danny Meyer the famous restaurant tour and 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:01.880 been a restaurant manager in one and actually the only 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.839 restaurant he had at the time. Or I was offered 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.720 a job by a consultant who helps restaurants, hotels, etc. 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.080 Start up their business or their food service, dining services, whatever. 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.679 And I actually wanted to go work for Danny Meyer. 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.120 But and he interviewed me and he said, you know, 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:20.760 I'm going to offer you the job, but I'm going 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.680 to suggest. I'm going to recommend you don't take this job. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.320 My advice to you is don't take this job. And 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.040 I said, oh, that's interesting. Why And he said, because 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.760 you're an entrepreneur and you need to find out what 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.720 it is that you're going to do. So yeah, it 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.720 was very cool and it forged, you know, a lifelong 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.840 friendship with him, which I'm very grateful to have. I'm 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.720 the fourth generation agriculture and food entrepreneur. My great grandfather 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.840 came here from the Ukraine in nineteen o seven. I 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.360 believe he drove a Breakstone cottage sheese card. If you 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.200 remember those old commercials for Breakstones cottage sheees. He was 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.600 one of those guys driving a buggy around the Upper 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.880 east Side selling butter eggs and cheese and cottage she 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.920 and milk to consumers who would come out of their 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.640 apartment buildings and buy from a cart because there were 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:09.719 no supermarkets. Then my grandfather and he converted that into 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.920 a wholesale business for butter eggs and cheese, operating out 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.680 of the Washington market. And then in the nineteen my 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.000 grandfather was born around nineteen oh nine, and then my 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.800 father was born in Brooklyn in nineteen thirty two, and 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.959 by then they had a feed and seed company for 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.559 the farms in Brooklyn, but Brooklyn was rapidly developing because 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.960 of the existence of the Brooklyn Bridge. So they picked 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.600 up everything and moved it out to Long Island to 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:39.360 a town called Farmingdale, and ran this feed and seed 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.400 company from Farmingdale, shipping feed and seed out to the 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.800 farms on the east end of Long Island where I 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:45.400 now live. 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:46.440 Oh that's so cool. 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:51.600 And my grandfather was recruited from the USDA in the 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:56.080 late nineteen forties to go to Cornell University to learn 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.760 how to make commercial fertilizer because farmers were trying to 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.600 use this nitrogen and ammonia. They were mixing it up 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.880 in their barns. As he used to say, they were 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:07.480 blowing up their barns. So you know, somebody came the 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:08.480 ye done. 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:15.200 I haven't mixed up any explosions, though I did find 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.640 I did find a load of gunpowder that the previous 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:19.920 owner left in there. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.720 So plenty of blowing up opportunity, yeah, exactly. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.480 So anyway, fast forward, my grandfather grew that company. He 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.440 sold it to a company that eventually sold it to DOO, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.280 So you know, fertilizers, those kind of fertilizers or chemicals. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.439 My father then became a sales that became a real 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.400 estate salesperson, working with the farmers on the east end 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.760 of Long Island. And while he did broker lots of 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.520 deals to help farmers sell their property to developers, he 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.560 also broker the first transfer of development rights deal in 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.720 the country. And that is where kind of my story begins. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.760 By creating that kind of real estate mechanism. It was 0:11:56.000 --> 0:12:00.559 giving Long Island farmers a financial opportunity to stay farming 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.719 when the land values were going up all around them, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.560 and it would have been much better and more profitable 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.280 to sell to developers. But because of the preservation or 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.160 the transfer of development rights, there is still and it 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:18.640 is actually growing again. A I don't even it's not 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.120 even nascent, because it's already been going on for fifty years, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:26.400 but a very exciting kind of regional local food production community. 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.560 And so when I a few years after I quit 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:32.320 working for the consultant that I went to work for 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.559 and I started KKA and P, I actually went back 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:38.280 to school and got a master's degree in sustainability because 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.000 I really wanted to understand the whole ecological, environmental aspect 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:48.520 of producing food and why, to your point earlier, why 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.160 it's so difficult for local food to get into New 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.480 York City, and why it is difficult and challenging to 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.840 get produced that tastes good one hundred percent of the time. 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.560 So history steeped in agriculture and food, we're gonna have 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.680 to ask you for some Anthony Bourdain style tips about 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.559 like when to order fish or salads in New York restaurants. 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:11.000 I'll try to channel him as best. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.760 I can't excelent, but maybe before we get to that. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.360 I mean, you mentioned it being difficult to get local 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.120 produce into New York. So A, what are the difficulties? Exactly? 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:25.400 What are the challenges? And then B to Joe's controversial point, 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.400 which he won't take responsibility for in the intro, does 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.880 New York in fact have bad produce? 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.640 Okay, so we need to, I think, start this conversation 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.880 and in a moment in time, right okay, up until 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.120 let's just say the nineteen fifties, let's just put it 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.000 in the middle of the twentieth century, there was some 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.679 produce that was coming in from across the country, as 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.000 I mentioned earlier, coming in a box cars, et cetera. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.600 Before there was and I think we're going to get 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:54.559 to this later in this conversation. Before there was the 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:58.320 Hunts Point Produce Terminal Market, which is responsible now for 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.800 receiving and distributing upwards of twenty five percent of New 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.679 York City's produce. There was an open air market down 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.880 in Tribeca on Washington Street. It was called the Washington 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:17.760 Street Market, and there were vendors there selling everything fresh produce, beef, chicken, eggs, pork, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.240 you name it. It was just open air markets. The 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.960 produce that was coming from outside the country, I mean sorry, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.880 from across the country from the West Coast, for example, 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.520 or from the Midwest would come in by rail and 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.200 then be transferred by rail to ferries that would come 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.120 to the Lower West Side and then be picked up 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.920 by a middleman and brought to the vendors that were 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:44.480 selling in the Washington market. In those days, the priority 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.400 and the priority, and it made most sense in season 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.760 to buy whatever was possible to buy as close to 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.440 New York City as possible. When you ate those tomatoes, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:57.040 yeah they were good. 0:14:57.880 --> 0:14:59.600 Tracy grew the Tracy grew them. 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.640 They were Tracy grew them in Connecticut. They were brandy 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.000 Wine brand, and they were brandy Wine so wonderful. The 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.080 way the food system used to work in any metropolitan 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:16.000 area is that whatever the transportation methods existed would bring 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.440 the produce either from as far away as possible to 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.160 create a year round supply of things. But it wasn't 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.000 always possible to get tomatoes year round like it is now. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.320 And when you get those tomatoes year round, in any 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:34.520 time from October to July. They're gonna be not great 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.480 in a city like New York for the most part, 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:43.800 because a tomato needs to really be consumed very close 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:47.800 to when it's picked, its flavor will deteriorate way quicker 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.440 than for example, iceberg lettuce, which doesn't really have much 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:54.000 flavor per se. It has crunch, it has texture, it 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:56.600 has water, but it doesn't really have flavor like a 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:01.200 tomato does. So pretty much it was almost like intuitive 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.080 how food kind of was brought into New York and 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.760 was consumed. And there were always the extraneous things like lemons. 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.080 For example, citrus does not grow does not grow close 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.320 by to New York anytime anytime of the year. Climate change, 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.560 maybe that will change, hopefully not. Things don't get that bad. 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.160 So those things were brought in from far away. But 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.200 it was however, you could get to something when it 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.960 was ripe and ready to be eaten. Those things were 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.440 brought to New York. And so that whole kind of 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.560 intricate web is called the food system. So going back 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.840 to KK and P, what we are. We are food 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.520 systems consultants. So our job is to help our clients, 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:46.920 which range from government agencies to nonprofit organizations to businesses 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.640 to help them solve their food problems, and the food 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.720 problems they are asking us to help solve is it 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:58.840 includes creating more access for fresh and healthy food for 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.720 low income people, to rebuild regional farm and food economies, 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:04.720 which is kind of I think the crux of what 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:06.840 we're going to be talking about here, to work on 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.600 supply chain issues, such as for some of the big corporations, 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.800 help them understand where their ingredients are coming from and 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.320 how they could get better and more sustainable ingredients, as 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.159 well as designing and sometimes teaching higher education programs around 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:37.440 this whole thing that we call the food system. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.560 You mentioned one stat already about Hunt's Point and you said, 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.000 roughly a quarter of New York City's produce ghosts through there. 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.800 I don't know much about it. I mean my impression 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.080 is and I think it's, you know, the grocery store 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.600 for grocery stores and this gigantic sort of facility of produce. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.040 But I don't know. Give us a little bit more 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:02.000 sort of description of the role that this Hunts Point 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.560 terminal plays in the New York City produce market and 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.879 how unusual or common it is for big cities in 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.280 the United States to have a facility like this. 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.400 Sure, so I will answer that question, but I want 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.120 to say first, if you don't mind, please fresh produce 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.640 gets to New York City now today in twenty twenty three, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.240 one of three principal ways okay, okay, going from sort 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.880 of small scale to big scale. The small scale is well, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:31.800 the small scale is Tracy bringing you a fe for 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.800 brandywine to me. But a little bit larger than that 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:39.840 are farmers markets. Right so, there are dozens of farmers 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.399 markets in New York City right now. I don't know 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.080 the exact number, but it could be close to one 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:47.000 hundred and those markets, however, many days they operate rely 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:52.479 on farmers, individual farmers picking and packing their produce, trucking 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.800 it into New York City and selling it to people 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.040 like you and me selling it direct to customer. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:18:58.679 Okay. 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.920 The next level up is the level that a wholesale 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.679 market plays, such as the Hunts Point Produce Terminal Market 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.000 in New York City. And later this year they will 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.439 be a wholesale farmers market opening right across the street 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:14.800 from the Hunts Point Produce Terminal Market. This is a 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.360 project I've been working on since two thousand and two, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.760 so we're really ready to see a question. 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.760 A wholesale market like could trace it even if it's 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:24.720 a wholesale could we walk in there? Would we have 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:26.360 to be like a licensed buyer for. 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.520 Hunts Point or for the wholesale farmers market for either. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:34.679 Yeah, I mean you let me mention how tomatoes are 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:35.320 you buying, Joe. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.920 Yeah, let me just mention the third way because and 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:38.680 then you can go back. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:39.040 Yeah. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.119 So the third way that produce gets to New York 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:47.800 City are through distributors that are picking product up from 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:52.560 distribution centers that could be vertically integrated. Supermarket chains have 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:58.160 now vertically integrated supply chains. So your Whole Foods, your Dagasino, 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.760 Sea Town Who or a key food they have very 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.359 much vertically integrated supply chains now, which means those companies 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:12.359 are contracting directly with farmers across the country for the 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.159 best possible produce at the best time of year, and 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.240 they come directly to their distribution centers which are outside 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.600 of New York City and then in fact many in Cheshire, 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.440 Connecticut just so happens that they're there, and then those 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.040 are trucked into supermarkets and put on the shelves for consumers. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.639 Sorry, So, just to emphasize this point, the way a 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.399 supermarket like a Whole Foods is getting its produce is 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.719 going to be different to the way an independent seller 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.119 with a cart on the street is going to be 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:42.520 getting out. 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.359 Yes, and even different from how an independent grocer. So 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.639 a small scale grocer or your fresh fruit and vegetable 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.560 vendor on your corner. Who, by the way, those guys 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.719 sell a lot of stuff, so you know if they 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.080 were in a store, they sell enough stuff to have 0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:59.320 a small store. They're really the good ones, the good 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.720 ones anyway. So the second part of that question was. 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.320 Well, just like, give us Hunts Point how unusual, you know, 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.040 just tell us a little bit more about how the 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:10.080 terminal system works. 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:11.280 Can we buy from it? 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.080 Right, So let me go back to the answer that question. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.480