WEBVTT - I Am Superman with Patty Jenkins | Development Hell

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. You called it a fairy tale? Yeah, do you have?

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<v Speaker 1>Is there a fairy tale that you were inspired by?

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<v Speaker 1>Which fairy tale is this?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if there's one. I think it's so

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<v Speaker 2>the opening, the opening of the movie is and this

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<v Speaker 2>will just tell you the tone. There's a voice over

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the movie, and the opening shot is you're pushing

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<v Speaker 2>in on this kennel in the middle of nowhere, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's out in the field, and it's like there once was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, an animal named Bandit, and the Bandit used

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<v Speaker 2>to have had dreams of blah blah blah, blah blah.

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<v Speaker 2>And you're pushing in, pushing in, pushing in, until you

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<v Speaker 2>get to this pit bull sitting at the center, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's a thing of fighting pipules. And he named himself

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<v Speaker 2>Bandit because and you see a flash of a little

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<v Speaker 2>boy that the dog had seen from his kennel far

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<v Speaker 2>far away, playing with his puppy, named Bandit, and Bandit

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<v Speaker 2>had dreams of one day being that dog, and he

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<v Speaker 2>hoped that one day someone would give him a chance

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<v Speaker 2>and believe in him. And this dog trainer comes, the

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<v Speaker 2>fighting trainer and takes band It out, and he's like

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<v Speaker 2>come on, get out of here. And he's pushing, dragging

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<v Speaker 2>him along, and then he's like, but that's many, many

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, and Bandit suddenly turns around and just fucking

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<v Speaker 2>launches it as trainer and kills the dude. And at

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<v Speaker 2>this point in Bandit's life, all Bandit ever wanted was

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<v Speaker 2>just revenge, you know, like just bloody revenge for the

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<v Speaker 2>life that he's lived. I'm not remembering it verbat him.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a long time ago, but it's like and

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<v Speaker 2>all he wanted was just one shot, just to get

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<v Speaker 2>paidback and nothing more. And then you just push in

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<v Speaker 2>on him and he's just got blood down his neck.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Development Hell, our mini series about the movies

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<v Speaker 1>that Hollywood never made. This episode is about a film

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<v Speaker 1>starring a dog, I Misunderstood Dog, that the filmmaker Patty

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<v Speaker 1>Jenkins wanted to make. You've heard of her, I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>her debut feature was A Monster, an incredible portrait of

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<v Speaker 1>Eileen Warenose, a prostitute who killed seven of her clients.

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<v Speaker 1>Jenkins wrote and directed Monster Charlie's Throne, took the lead

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<v Speaker 1>role and went on to win the Best Actress Oscar

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<v Speaker 1>for it. Patty Jenkins next tour of force, directing the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty seventeen version of A Wonder Woman. The movie was

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<v Speaker 1>a hit with critics and made more than one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>million dollars in its opening weekend. But somewhere between those

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<v Speaker 1>two hits, Patty Jenkins had the idea of telling a

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<v Speaker 1>different kind of story.

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<v Speaker 2>So I became aware of these dog prison programs and

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<v Speaker 2>started to really research them and watch them and came

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<v Speaker 2>up with this story, which is kind of a fairy

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<v Speaker 2>tale that takes place in a dog program where the

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<v Speaker 2>lead characters are the dog. And my ambition was to

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<v Speaker 2>make a rated R dog movie where I wanted the

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<v Speaker 2>dog to give a performance so good they discussed whether

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<v Speaker 2>to give it an oscar. You know, that was my

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<v Speaker 2>whole goal, But there was a heavy there's a serious

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<v Speaker 2>tour de force role for a man.

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<v Speaker 1>So far in development. Hell, we've only told stories about

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<v Speaker 1>men and the movies they haven't made. This is our

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<v Speaker 1>first story involving a woman. It's not for lack of trying.

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<v Speaker 1>We made call after call. We recorded a truly fantastic

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<v Speaker 1>episode with a prominent female screenwriter, and then she asked

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<v Speaker 1>us not to run it. With good reason. Her movie

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<v Speaker 1>never got made because she ran into a male director

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<v Speaker 1>who didn't get the most beautiful and brilliant part of

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<v Speaker 1>her script, and she didn't want to out him, not

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<v Speaker 1>if she wanted to keep working as a screenwriter. And

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<v Speaker 1>she's right. Women in Hollywood play by a very different

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<v Speaker 1>set of rules than men. They don't have the same freedom,

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<v Speaker 1>and more specifically, they're not allowed to tell the same

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of stories, which was the brick wall that Patty

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<v Speaker 1>Jenkins ran into with her fairy tale about a misunderstood

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<v Speaker 1>pitbull named Bandit.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a bad dog, right for sure. You end

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<v Speaker 2>up realizing as the story goes by, these trainers beat

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<v Speaker 2>the shit out of these dogs, they abuse them, and

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, every once in a while they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>turn on and kill somebody. And that's life, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>I obviously, having made Monster, have sympathy for why people

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<v Speaker 2>do the things that they do and interest in why

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<v Speaker 2>they do the things that they do. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's also what the core of the story is. By

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the movie, you've seen that bann It

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<v Speaker 2>is this wonderful dog if someone had just given him

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<v Speaker 2>a chance to prove what he's capable of doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Patty, Patty hold on, yeahackup dog prisons. So tell me

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<v Speaker 1>the story, Tell me the story, and tell me what

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<v Speaker 1>a dog prison is.

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<v Speaker 2>So there are these programs throughout the country where they

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<v Speaker 2>put dogs, unadoptable dogs in with inmates and they have

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<v Speaker 2>those inmates rehabilitate the dogs. And what's an incredible thing

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<v Speaker 2>about it is that the closer you get to studying

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<v Speaker 2>why and what's happening in these prison programs, you realize

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<v Speaker 2>and this is very much what the movie was about,

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<v Speaker 2>that you're talking about a population of people that no

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<v Speaker 2>one gives a second chance to. And this will come

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<v Speaker 2>back around to because it's, ironically, I think, related to

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<v Speaker 2>why I could not get the movie made. Everybody wants

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<v Speaker 2>to believe that these are bad guys, they're only interested

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<v Speaker 2>in having them suffer and pay their dues. But the

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<v Speaker 2>truth is that the closer you get to prison, the

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<v Speaker 2>more you realize that prisons are mostly full of just

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<v Speaker 2>poor people. The prisons are full of guys who have changed,

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<v Speaker 2>never were that bad, have been in since Juvie, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's no way out. So the incredible thing about these

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<v Speaker 2>dog programs is that they you're looking at a population

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<v Speaker 2>of people that nobody is interested in anything other than

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<v Speaker 2>having them pay their dues and then in these animals

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<v Speaker 2>that don't see them that way and need them to

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<v Speaker 2>be their hero, and the men just come alive. So

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<v Speaker 2>you're using their time to do this incredible thing and

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<v Speaker 2>it ends up being an absolutely stunning program where the

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<v Speaker 2>inmates that end up being enrolled in this have their

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<v Speaker 2>acidivism rate drops to almost zero. And that's what the

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<v Speaker 2>movie was called. I Am Superman. The guy who gets

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<v Speaker 2>paired with this dog names him Superman.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, So what is the what's the can you

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<v Speaker 1>can you be more specific about the emotional journey of

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<v Speaker 1>the actor in this.

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<v Speaker 2>The emotional journey of the actor is is the last

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<v Speaker 2>vestige of hope that they can get out and that

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<v Speaker 2>they can have their life changed, and it's crushed when

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<v Speaker 2>the prison shuts down the dog program and sends the

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<v Speaker 2>dog away to be put down and all hell breaks loose.

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<v Speaker 2>The journey of the actor is very much the journey

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<v Speaker 2>that I've seen happen with any guys in prison, which

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<v Speaker 2>is like, oh, I got tricked into thinking that I

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<v Speaker 2>could get a ged and I could go and change

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<v Speaker 2>my life, But the truth is no, because even when

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<v Speaker 2>you get out, nobody's really going to hire you. They're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to give you a chance. They're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to ever believe that you're different. They're only going to

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<v Speaker 2>be interested in the tough guy that you were. And

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<v Speaker 2>so what are you gonna do. You're gonna become a

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<v Speaker 2>criminal again, because it's at least there's some integrity of

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<v Speaker 2>being a bad guy, you know, like there's no integrity

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<v Speaker 2>of being a loser. And so it's that's his journey,

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<v Speaker 2>and it ends up going differently than that in the end,

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<v Speaker 2>but only by a miracle. And so the movie was

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<v Speaker 2>a fairy tale about a single dog, and the dog's

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<v Speaker 2>opening scene of the movie, the dog kills its trainer.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like sitting on top of him with blood dripping

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<v Speaker 2>down its mouth. It's a fighting pit bull, and he

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<v Speaker 2>gets put in a shelter and is supposed to be

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<v Speaker 2>put down. But this dog gets accidentally put in the

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<v Speaker 2>program and the inmate that gets paired with him has

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<v Speaker 2>just been brought back into prison after being he had

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<v Speaker 2>just and he's been accused of another crime. But because

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<v Speaker 2>he had had, you know, had been a good history

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<v Speaker 2>when he was in prison before, they let him get

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<v Speaker 2>into this program. But he hates dogs, and so it's

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<v Speaker 2>the story of this this terrible pit bull supposedly and

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<v Speaker 2>this terrible man who are paired together, who actually hate

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<v Speaker 2>each other, who have to go through this program together.

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<v Speaker 2>And I can't tell you the whole story because I

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<v Speaker 2>still may make this movie and I don't want everybody

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<v Speaker 2>to know everything. But the truth is it doesn't go

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<v Speaker 2>the way you think. It's not a touchy feeling. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not interested in just straightforward issue movies. So this is

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<v Speaker 2>this is very much a fairy tale, and the story

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<v Speaker 2>goes slightly differently than you think it would, but but

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<v Speaker 2>it's wonderful.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give us one tiny little hint of a

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<v Speaker 1>little direction that it goes in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you would, one would assume, and will assume that

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<v Speaker 2>it is that the man and the dog change each other. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they do start to change each other. But then the

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<v Speaker 2>entire program is sabotaged by the prison and by the

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<v Speaker 2>administration and by the corruption, which is exactly what really

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<v Speaker 2>is going on in these prison situations, and things turn

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<v Speaker 2>out very very differently, like a bunch of different people

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<v Speaker 2>go a different way.

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<v Speaker 1>Who do we root for more by the end, the

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<v Speaker 1>dog or both?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you really get to know them both and

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<v Speaker 2>you understand. You end up understanding how misunderstood they are

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<v Speaker 2>completely and how disinterested in anybody is in what's really

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<v Speaker 2>their story, except they figure out what's up with each other,

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<v Speaker 2>but nobody else cares or is open to it.

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<v Speaker 1>This is this sort of on one level, is super bleak.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not. It's magical, No, it is. It is. The

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<v Speaker 2>journey is bleak, and it seems like it's going to be,

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<v Speaker 2>but it ends up being magical, and I love the

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<v Speaker 2>ending and it's wonderful, but really it's it it. You'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to think that, you know, there are these great

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<v Speaker 2>programs and that they're changing people, and so of course

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to continue to do them, But not only

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<v Speaker 2>does that not happen, but then it goes a very

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<v Speaker 2>different way, and that goes to the point of why

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<v Speaker 2>I think no one ever made the movie, because the

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<v Speaker 2>movie is all about the main character is already changed.

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<v Speaker 2>He's already a changed guy, and so it really ends

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<v Speaker 2>up being about the corruption that surrounds these guys, where

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<v Speaker 2>even if you've changed and you've become a better person,

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<v Speaker 2>or you've never really done anything, there's no way out

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<v Speaker 2>because everybody's only interested in seeing you as the tattoos

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<v Speaker 2>that you have and the history.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, Patty and I talk more about dogs

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<v Speaker 1>and development. Hell, we're back with Patty Jenkins. Are you

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<v Speaker 1>a dog person?

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a dog person, fanatical dog person. I love dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of dog do you have?

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<v Speaker 2>I have a pit bull and I have a French bulldog. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but I've had pit bulls my whole life.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you grow up with dogs as a kid sort of?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I yes, I was always my mom didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want us to have a dog, but I was always

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<v Speaker 2>finding a way to get dogs, and so yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>had different dogs. And also my grandparents lived in Mississippi

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<v Speaker 2>when I was young, and so I would spend every

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<v Speaker 2>summer down there with them in Mississippi, and there were

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<v Speaker 2>like twenty thirty pitples there. And this is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>before pitbulls had this bad reputation. And so I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up around pit bulls and I understand them and know

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<v Speaker 2>them and love them and think that they're so smart

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<v Speaker 2>and interesting. And so that's another thing.

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<v Speaker 1>An incredibly steadfast dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Unbelievably, And by the way, it's not to say that

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<v Speaker 2>there aren't some people breeding hyper aggressive ones. I've always

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<v Speaker 2>I've never been the person who says, oh, they're just

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<v Speaker 2>like any other dog. Dangerous dogs, you need to know

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<v Speaker 2>what you're dealing with. If it does bite somebody, it

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<v Speaker 2>can do a lot of damage. They're not very likely

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<v Speaker 2>to bite somebody, and they are incredibly smart and independent

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<v Speaker 2>and emotional dogs, one of the most intelligent breeds.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so how do you first of all, when you

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<v Speaker 1>conceive of a movie that hasn't both you know whose

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<v Speaker 1>principal characters are a person and an animal? What challenges

0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:40.636
<v Speaker 1>does the Does the dog present huge challenge?

0:12:40.676 --> 0:12:43.436
<v Speaker 2>I mean chalge? So this is part of what I

0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:47.116
<v Speaker 2>was so excited and interested about. My goal was to

0:12:47.156 --> 0:12:49.716
<v Speaker 2>get an honest performance out of a pitbull. They are

0:12:49.796 --> 0:12:53.756
<v Speaker 2>incredibly emotive dogs and so you can just read what's

0:12:53.796 --> 0:12:56.916
<v Speaker 2>going on on their face. So that got me really

0:12:56.996 --> 0:12:59.276
<v Speaker 2>interested in how do we do this, not just having

0:12:59.276 --> 0:13:02.156
<v Speaker 2>a trainer, you know, be over here. Really what it

0:13:02.196 --> 0:13:04.356
<v Speaker 2>was going to come down to was putting the actor

0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:07.956
<v Speaker 2>in the zelle with the dog and actually trying to

0:13:07.996 --> 0:13:10.556
<v Speaker 2>elicit that real perform it's out of the dog with

0:13:10.716 --> 0:13:13.716
<v Speaker 2>almost no crew around. I was always when we would

0:13:13.716 --> 0:13:15.916
<v Speaker 2>talk about budget, I was saying, I want to get

0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:19.476
<v Speaker 2>the tiniest crew, but I want to shoot a lot

0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:21.556
<v Speaker 2>of days, and so it was just going to be

0:13:21.676 --> 0:13:25.516
<v Speaker 2>slow to try to wait until you get that right

0:13:25.556 --> 0:13:29.356
<v Speaker 2>expression out of the dog and elicit that actual performance

0:13:29.396 --> 0:13:29.996
<v Speaker 2>from the dog.

0:13:30.156 --> 0:13:33.316
<v Speaker 1>And so what are you looking for from the dog specifically?

0:13:33.436 --> 0:13:35.956
<v Speaker 2>It depends, So it's a whole you know, it's a

0:13:35.996 --> 0:13:39.476
<v Speaker 2>whole story. So you would need the dog to dislike

0:13:39.516 --> 0:13:42.116
<v Speaker 2>the guy and be hostile. You'd need the dog to

0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:46.516
<v Speaker 2>become curious and interested but apprehensive, and then the dog

0:13:46.596 --> 0:13:49.036
<v Speaker 2>to you know, start to fall in love with the guy.

0:13:49.116 --> 0:13:52.116
<v Speaker 2>You need the dog to all kinds of things. He

0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:55.236
<v Speaker 2>has to have a moment where he flips out and

0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:58.796
<v Speaker 2>so so you would need everything. And that was going

0:13:58.876 --> 0:13:59.956
<v Speaker 2>to be kind of the sport of it.

0:14:00.236 --> 0:14:02.196
<v Speaker 1>But the whole time that you're trying to elicit a

0:14:02.276 --> 0:14:05.276
<v Speaker 1>natural performance from the dog, the dog is aware that

0:14:05.316 --> 0:14:06.396
<v Speaker 1>there's someone with a camera.

0:14:07.276 --> 0:14:10.036
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe not. So if you hid enough cameras around

0:14:10.556 --> 0:14:13.156
<v Speaker 2>and laughs, you know, like the way that they do

0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:16.756
<v Speaker 2>like reality shows where their cameras mounted all over the

0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.476
<v Speaker 2>car and you know, or comedians in cars with coffee

0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:22.596
<v Speaker 2>or like whatever, you can hide different cameras. I would

0:14:22.596 --> 0:14:24.956
<v Speaker 2>shoot it differently than all of my other films, because

0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:28.196
<v Speaker 2>everything else I've done, I've done on film, and you know,

0:14:28.356 --> 0:14:32.356
<v Speaker 2>it's a very big, big production. This I would actually

0:14:32.396 --> 0:14:35.156
<v Speaker 2>be open to shooting digitally for this very reason, just

0:14:35.196 --> 0:14:38.156
<v Speaker 2>so that I could get cameras everywhere. The addition, the

0:14:38.196 --> 0:14:39.956
<v Speaker 2>other thing I wanted to do was I wanted to

0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:42.476
<v Speaker 2>shoot it in a real prison with inmates as part

0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:45.636
<v Speaker 2>part of the crew. There are a couple of prisons

0:14:45.676 --> 0:14:49.836
<v Speaker 2>that have like two different They have a very busy prison,

0:14:49.876 --> 0:14:52.676
<v Speaker 2>but they also have like a closed down section of

0:14:52.716 --> 0:14:55.836
<v Speaker 2>the prison nearby, And so I was working on that

0:14:55.956 --> 0:14:58.316
<v Speaker 2>idea as well. Where you know, just the same way

0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:00.276
<v Speaker 2>you would run a dog program, you run a very

0:15:00.996 --> 0:15:05.596
<v Speaker 2>you know the yard where the kind of vetted inmates are.

0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:08.396
<v Speaker 2>You have them come and be trained to work as

0:15:08.436 --> 0:15:11.356
<v Speaker 2>crew on the film. The problem is it, you know,

0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:14.436
<v Speaker 2>it becomes a little tough if there's lockdowns and things

0:15:14.476 --> 0:15:16.116
<v Speaker 2>like that, and that happens all the time. But this

0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:17.636
<v Speaker 2>was all gonna you know, I was going to try

0:15:17.636 --> 0:15:19.156
<v Speaker 2>to figure out how much of it I could do

0:15:19.196 --> 0:15:19.836
<v Speaker 2>that way.

0:15:19.836 --> 0:15:21.356
<v Speaker 1>And what about the actor.

0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:24.356
<v Speaker 2>The actor would have to be on board in a

0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:26.196
<v Speaker 2>in a different it would be a ride. It would

0:15:26.196 --> 0:15:28.316
<v Speaker 2>be like a journey. You and that actor would be

0:15:28.356 --> 0:15:30.836
<v Speaker 2>on a ride trying to figure out how to do

0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:33.676
<v Speaker 2>this film together and try to figure out how. They'd

0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:36.356
<v Speaker 2>have to love dogs. They'd have to be interested in

0:15:36.396 --> 0:15:40.596
<v Speaker 2>the endeavor and it would be you know, interesting to

0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:42.756
<v Speaker 2>find out how it went. You'd have to be learning

0:15:42.756 --> 0:15:43.476
<v Speaker 2>the dog as you went.

0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:46.356
<v Speaker 1>But it's not just have to love dogs. It's that

0:15:46.636 --> 0:15:49.676
<v Speaker 1>you're also acting. So in the first part of the relationship,

0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:51.636
<v Speaker 1>you have to act that you don't love dogs.

0:15:52.316 --> 0:15:55.996
<v Speaker 2>M So again, that would go into camera work. When

0:15:56.036 --> 0:15:59.636
<v Speaker 2>I've worked with kids before, you sometimes have moments where

0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:03.276
<v Speaker 2>the actor is directing the kid off camera. I've had

0:16:03.316 --> 0:16:07.596
<v Speaker 2>one where this act, this adult actress was was Geene

0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:11.196
<v Speaker 2>Tripplehorn was acting out for the child what the child

0:16:11.236 --> 0:16:14.476
<v Speaker 2>should do. It was wonderful because we couldn't get the

0:16:14.556 --> 0:16:16.996
<v Speaker 2>kid to totally do it. So, you know, there are

0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:19.436
<v Speaker 2>many ways to get you know, you might be having

0:16:19.436 --> 0:16:21.116
<v Speaker 2>to do something strange to the dog to get the

0:16:21.156 --> 0:16:23.676
<v Speaker 2>dog to react strangely, you're not doing your part.

0:16:24.476 --> 0:16:27.396
<v Speaker 1>Oh I see. Yeah, So before we even get to

0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:33.716
<v Speaker 1>the studio, you've got to find an actor who's willing

0:16:33.756 --> 0:16:35.236
<v Speaker 1>to do something very unorthodox.

0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:39.796
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't, which I don't think would be that hard actually,

0:16:39.876 --> 0:16:44.076
<v Speaker 2>because I think it's such a juicy like, it's such

0:16:44.116 --> 0:16:47.156
<v Speaker 2>a juicy performance for an actor. It's such a good role.

0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:50.196
<v Speaker 2>Had been talking to Ryan Gosling about it at the time,

0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:52.276
<v Speaker 2>and this is way back, this is two thousand and

0:16:52.996 --> 0:16:56.436
<v Speaker 2>six of two thousand and five, and then Ryan and

0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:59.116
<v Speaker 2>I were going to sort of do it alternately off

0:16:59.156 --> 0:17:01.196
<v Speaker 2>and on, but then he kept not being able to

0:17:01.196 --> 0:17:02.636
<v Speaker 2>do it or wanting to do it because he'd wanted

0:17:02.676 --> 0:17:05.316
<v Speaker 2>to go make money or various different things. When I

0:17:05.316 --> 0:17:07.676
<v Speaker 2>would try to go to other actors but Ryan Gosling,

0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:09.876
<v Speaker 2>I would get the same sort of thing from the guys.

0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:12.436
<v Speaker 2>They wanted to be tough and scary and stab somebody

0:17:12.476 --> 0:17:15.556
<v Speaker 2>in whatever, and and I thought that was such a

0:17:15.596 --> 0:17:20.196
<v Speaker 2>telling thing that that that was a story people struggled

0:17:20.676 --> 0:17:24.916
<v Speaker 2>to embrace, a non redemption story about prison. That was

0:17:24.956 --> 0:17:27.956
<v Speaker 2>the issue I had more of. Interestingly, when I tried

0:17:27.996 --> 0:17:31.876
<v Speaker 2>to make the film, even the most liberal people in

0:17:31.916 --> 0:17:34.876
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood and the most issue we companies that make these

0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:38.316
<v Speaker 2>films would always say, yeah, but can't he stab somebody

0:17:38.316 --> 0:17:40.556
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning and be about his redemption? And I

0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:43.396
<v Speaker 2>would say no, you're very much missing the point of

0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:45.356
<v Speaker 2>the movie. The point of the movie is that you're

0:17:45.556 --> 0:17:48.756
<v Speaker 2>romanticizing prison. If you think it's a bunch of super

0:17:48.796 --> 0:17:51.556
<v Speaker 2>dangerous people in there, it's not. I've walked around the

0:17:51.556 --> 0:17:54.956
<v Speaker 2>main line of Full sum you know, of some of

0:17:54.996 --> 0:17:57.556
<v Speaker 2>the most dangerous prisons in the country, and I'm not

0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:02.156
<v Speaker 2>fraid at all because ninety nine point nine percent of

0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:05.516
<v Speaker 2>the guys are just sad. It's just a sad sack situation.

0:18:05.676 --> 0:18:09.836
<v Speaker 2>It's very organized, it's just a warehouse for human beings

0:18:09.836 --> 0:18:13.516
<v Speaker 2>with no way out. And that's what I found so

0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:15.516
<v Speaker 2>fascinating about people not wanting to make it is that

0:18:15.556 --> 0:18:19.396
<v Speaker 2>no one's interested in the story about prison not being

0:18:19.876 --> 0:18:20.836
<v Speaker 2>just you know.

0:18:21.436 --> 0:18:24.436
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's it's a what's fast saying about the

0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:28.276
<v Speaker 1>script is you begin I mean, the very thing that

0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:32.036
<v Speaker 1>makes it hard for the studio or an actor is

0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:35.156
<v Speaker 1>what makes it so intriguing for an audience, because you're

0:18:35.236 --> 0:18:39.716
<v Speaker 1>messing with our expectation about an animal movie. We've seen

0:18:39.756 --> 0:18:42.036
<v Speaker 1>animal movies and we know how they work. Right.

0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:44.476
<v Speaker 2>That's why I think it's great is because the truth

0:18:44.556 --> 0:18:46.316
<v Speaker 2>is a lot of people also said to me, you

0:18:46.356 --> 0:18:48.316
<v Speaker 2>can't make a rat at oar dog movie. I was like,

0:18:48.476 --> 0:18:50.836
<v Speaker 2>but everybody said you couldn't make a dog movie at all,

0:18:50.876 --> 0:18:53.436
<v Speaker 2>and every time they make dog movies they're huge. We

0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:56.356
<v Speaker 2>love dogs, and so what are you taking. It's not

0:18:56.436 --> 0:18:59.236
<v Speaker 2>like only kids like dog movies. Adults like dog movies.

0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:01.636
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, you can definitely make a rat Atar dog movie.

0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:04.676
<v Speaker 2>So but it's just listen. I make myself feel better

0:19:04.676 --> 0:19:06.636
<v Speaker 2>by saying you can't. Both want to do things that

0:19:06.836 --> 0:19:10.076
<v Speaker 2>nobody's ever seen before, and then before frustrated that nobody

0:19:10.156 --> 0:19:13.316
<v Speaker 2>understands why it's going to work or why you believe

0:19:13.316 --> 0:19:15.916
<v Speaker 2>in it. But this plagues me in my whole career.

0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:18.996
<v Speaker 2>I've never done anything anybody thought I was going to succeed.

0:19:19.116 --> 0:19:21.396
<v Speaker 2>Everybody thinks everything I do is like a wonder woman

0:19:21.436 --> 0:19:23.636
<v Speaker 2>that's going to be terrible. Oh monster, that's going to

0:19:23.676 --> 0:19:25.236
<v Speaker 2>be terrible. Oh the killing is going to be a

0:19:25.236 --> 0:19:26.276
<v Speaker 2>bad TV whatever.

0:19:27.076 --> 0:19:31.556
<v Speaker 1>When you finished the screenplay and you said, what did

0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:33.836
<v Speaker 1>you say to yourself? Did you think this is a

0:19:33.836 --> 0:19:35.756
<v Speaker 1>slam dunk? Someone's going to help me make this?

0:19:37.836 --> 0:19:42.876
<v Speaker 2>No, but I knew how how very happy I was

0:19:42.916 --> 0:19:44.916
<v Speaker 2>with it, and the people who read it had the

0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:47.756
<v Speaker 2>same reaction. You know, like people would say you know

0:19:47.796 --> 0:19:50.116
<v Speaker 2>that it was. I've had still people some people write

0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:52.196
<v Speaker 2>me and say it's still one of their favorite screenplays

0:19:52.196 --> 0:19:55.996
<v Speaker 2>they've ever read. But but I knew it was going

0:19:56.076 --> 0:19:59.516
<v Speaker 2>to be a little bit hard, but I didn't And

0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:02.836
<v Speaker 2>I still don't understand why no one would roll the

0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:06.796
<v Speaker 2>dice on my very low budget second film, other than

0:20:06.796 --> 0:20:09.836
<v Speaker 2>to speculate that the sexism that I was very very

0:20:09.836 --> 0:20:12.836
<v Speaker 2>disinterested in throughout my career, but see much more clearly

0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:16.836
<v Speaker 2>now wad into the fact that you know, if a

0:20:16.836 --> 0:20:22.276
<v Speaker 2>guy makes an Oscar winning first film, then then you

0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:24.956
<v Speaker 2>roll the dice on their second thing. Whereas throughout my

0:20:25.036 --> 0:20:27.796
<v Speaker 2>career people have not been interested in or not had

0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:31.156
<v Speaker 2>confidence in what I want to do. They've embraced me

0:20:31.196 --> 0:20:33.396
<v Speaker 2>and wanted to hire me for what they want to do.

0:20:33.756 --> 0:20:37.076
<v Speaker 2>But still to this day, like when I have my

0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:39.396
<v Speaker 2>what the stories I want to tell are, people are like, ah,

0:20:39.476 --> 0:20:41.236
<v Speaker 2>we've never seen that before, And I'm like, yeah, but

0:20:41.276 --> 0:20:44.276
<v Speaker 2>you've never seen monster before either, Like you want to

0:20:44.316 --> 0:20:47.356
<v Speaker 2>just give it a shot. So so, looking back, it

0:20:47.396 --> 0:20:49.476
<v Speaker 2>took me all the way until now to be like, wait,

0:20:49.556 --> 0:20:51.996
<v Speaker 2>how did nobody just say, yeah, we'll give her five

0:20:52.036 --> 0:20:54.676
<v Speaker 2>million dollars to make her second movie. Different thoughts of.

0:20:54.756 --> 0:20:57.076
<v Speaker 1>This is super interesting and something I've been thinking about

0:20:57.076 --> 0:21:01.876
<v Speaker 1>a lot recently, which is that you're talking about sexism here.

0:21:02.796 --> 0:21:07.316
<v Speaker 1>Sexism discrimination of any kind takes all kinds of different forms. Yeah,

0:21:07.356 --> 0:21:09.716
<v Speaker 1>And in this case, what we're talking thing about is

0:21:09.956 --> 0:21:13.956
<v Speaker 1>someone is perfectly capable of saying, you made a brilliant movie.

0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:18.716
<v Speaker 1>So the sexism doesn't prevent them from seeing the genius

0:21:18.716 --> 0:21:21.436
<v Speaker 1>of Monster. It prevents them from seeing that you could

0:21:21.476 --> 0:21:23.716
<v Speaker 1>do it again. In other words, the way they make

0:21:23.756 --> 0:21:25.636
<v Speaker 1>sense a monster is, oh, it's a one off.

0:21:26.356 --> 0:21:30.076
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's that, of course,

0:21:30.116 --> 0:21:34.396
<v Speaker 2>it's not anybody's fault that the industry is based on

0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:37.596
<v Speaker 2>looking backwards. So if it's something this is what I

0:21:37.596 --> 0:21:39.996
<v Speaker 2>think is the real gender issue, and by the way,

0:21:40.036 --> 0:21:44.036
<v Speaker 2>not just gender issue. Diverse stories issue in Hollywood is

0:21:45.036 --> 0:21:48.276
<v Speaker 2>you can want to invite as many people behind camera

0:21:48.396 --> 0:21:50.716
<v Speaker 2>and into these positions as possible, but as long as

0:21:50.716 --> 0:21:54.276
<v Speaker 2>you're still basing what can and cannot succeed on the past,

0:21:54.756 --> 0:21:58.316
<v Speaker 2>you're basing it on a blueprint of a very specific voice.

0:21:58.636 --> 0:22:02.276
<v Speaker 2>And so I think that when I want to tell

0:22:02.316 --> 0:22:04.636
<v Speaker 2>a different maybe a guy wouldn't think of that story

0:22:04.636 --> 0:22:06.236
<v Speaker 2>that I'm coming up with and maybe the way the

0:22:06.236 --> 0:22:11.436
<v Speaker 2>emotions work are slightly different. Whatever, it is the combination

0:22:11.756 --> 0:22:13.596
<v Speaker 2>of the fact that they haven't seen it before, and

0:22:13.716 --> 0:22:16.716
<v Speaker 2>also they don't like to think of women as auteurs

0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:19.036
<v Speaker 2>or artists or take it as serious, Like there's a

0:22:19.276 --> 0:22:23.236
<v Speaker 2>there's a romantic desire to look at guys who do

0:22:23.556 --> 0:22:25.396
<v Speaker 2>like crazy art things and be like, oh my god,

0:22:25.396 --> 0:22:28.556
<v Speaker 2>they're a genius. Much less so with a woman, you know.

0:22:28.676 --> 0:22:30.956
<v Speaker 2>And so I think it's like the combination of those

0:22:31.116 --> 0:22:33.436
<v Speaker 2>things that make it tough.

0:22:34.876 --> 0:22:37.996
<v Speaker 1>So what exactly you said a little bit? But I'm curious,

0:22:38.156 --> 0:22:42.316
<v Speaker 1>So you take this script out? You want five million dollars, which,

0:22:42.516 --> 0:22:45.356
<v Speaker 1>just for those of you listening in Hollywood terms, not

0:22:45.436 --> 0:22:46.876
<v Speaker 1>a lot of money at all.

0:22:47.396 --> 0:22:50.156
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean, everybody thought that Monster costs more than that,

0:22:50.276 --> 0:22:52.396
<v Speaker 2>like they they there was a there was a big

0:22:52.476 --> 0:22:54.356
<v Speaker 2>lawsuit about it, and one of the sides tried to

0:22:54.356 --> 0:22:56.236
<v Speaker 2>say that it costs eleven million dollars, So that's what

0:22:56.276 --> 0:22:58.836
<v Speaker 2>they thought Monster costs. It actually costs one point five

0:22:58.956 --> 0:23:01.356
<v Speaker 2>But it's very that was as little money as a

0:23:01.396 --> 0:23:03.356
<v Speaker 2>movie can be. Is five million? Really?

0:23:03.396 --> 0:23:06.036
<v Speaker 1>And what do you so? What what exactly are you hearing?

0:23:06.036 --> 0:23:09.636
<v Speaker 1>You're hearing a people want they want. First of all,

0:23:09.636 --> 0:23:13.276
<v Speaker 1>they get that they want a different perspective on the prisoner.

0:23:13.316 --> 0:23:16.236
<v Speaker 1>You've said that they feel more comfortable where they have

0:23:16.276 --> 0:23:20.116
<v Speaker 1>a very clear redemptive narrative when it comes to the

0:23:20.556 --> 0:23:23.796
<v Speaker 1>to the past. But what else, keep going? What else?

0:23:24.476 --> 0:23:25.596
<v Speaker 1>What else is in their area?

0:23:25.676 --> 0:23:28.356
<v Speaker 2>You know, I can only say that it was always

0:23:28.436 --> 0:23:31.676
<v Speaker 2>like no, It's like even these people saying like it's great,

0:23:31.676 --> 0:23:33.516
<v Speaker 2>we love the script, but it's not for us. There's

0:23:33.516 --> 0:23:36.476
<v Speaker 2>always a million different reasons. It's only as the years

0:23:36.516 --> 0:23:39.076
<v Speaker 2>have gone by, and my husband's always pointing it out too,

0:23:39.836 --> 0:23:43.076
<v Speaker 2>that we've had this so many things that I led

0:23:43.156 --> 0:23:44.996
<v Speaker 2>that or my idea like I wanted to do an

0:23:45.116 --> 0:23:49.556
<v Speaker 2>MMA show called the Fight about People in the MMA world. No, no,

0:23:49.876 --> 0:23:52.036
<v Speaker 2>we don't. It doesn't make sense. Then sure enough that

0:23:52.076 --> 0:23:55.076
<v Speaker 2>goes on and becomes huge. It's like I when I

0:23:55.196 --> 0:23:58.076
<v Speaker 2>go and pitch things that I want to do and

0:23:58.236 --> 0:24:02.796
<v Speaker 2>what my ideas are, so often it's been met with

0:24:02.796 --> 0:24:05.236
<v Speaker 2>with like no, but we'd love you to do this

0:24:05.236 --> 0:24:07.276
<v Speaker 2>hooker with a heart of gold script or this you

0:24:07.276 --> 0:24:10.596
<v Speaker 2>know other thing. And I'm so grateful to have been

0:24:10.596 --> 0:24:13.556
<v Speaker 2>embraced to do other people's things, but there is something

0:24:13.596 --> 0:24:17.236
<v Speaker 2>about it, and so yeah, it's always something different. I

0:24:17.276 --> 0:24:19.916
<v Speaker 2>don't think that they're ever even aware of it, but

0:24:19.996 --> 0:24:24.876
<v Speaker 2>I do think that there's something about confidence and excitement

0:24:25.116 --> 0:24:34.596
<v Speaker 2>in in in women's artistry that is slightly less, you know,

0:24:34.636 --> 0:24:35.996
<v Speaker 2>they're they're less confident in.

0:24:36.756 --> 0:24:39.676
<v Speaker 1>That's my well, that's my that's my point. There's a

0:24:39.676 --> 0:24:45.516
<v Speaker 1>a much more constricted view of of your talent. It's

0:24:45.556 --> 0:24:49.956
<v Speaker 1>like you're this desire to see to if you can

0:24:49.996 --> 0:24:53.676
<v Speaker 1>explain away a big success by saying it was like

0:24:53.716 --> 0:24:56.396
<v Speaker 1>a like a a, it was an anomaly.

0:24:56.916 --> 0:24:59.556
<v Speaker 2>And by the way, it's always miss I feel it's

0:24:59.556 --> 0:25:02.356
<v Speaker 2>always misunderstood as well. I remember people saying to me

0:25:03.156 --> 0:25:06.836
<v Speaker 2>when I made Monster. The one studio executive actually said

0:25:06.836 --> 0:25:09.796
<v Speaker 2>to me she came into the editing and she actually

0:25:09.876 --> 0:25:13.796
<v Speaker 2>watched a part of it, and she goes, sweetheart, no

0:25:13.836 --> 0:25:17.276
<v Speaker 2>one wants to see a film like this. Oh, no,

0:25:17.276 --> 0:25:20.116
<v Speaker 2>one wants to see a movie like this. And she

0:25:20.196 --> 0:25:22.876
<v Speaker 2>wrote me an email saying like, oh, you're a great kid.

0:25:23.036 --> 0:25:25.516
<v Speaker 2>I know you're gonna make it one day. I'm just

0:25:25.636 --> 0:25:26.636
<v Speaker 2>really too bad.

0:25:26.476 --> 0:25:26.676
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:25:26.756 --> 0:25:28.436
<v Speaker 2>And this is before, of course the movie comes out

0:25:28.476 --> 0:25:31.356
<v Speaker 2>and ends up, you know, succeeding and making eighty something

0:25:31.436 --> 0:25:35.476
<v Speaker 2>million dollars by the way, and then I would hear

0:25:35.516 --> 0:25:37.876
<v Speaker 2>everybody saying like, oh, do you have any more female

0:25:37.876 --> 0:25:41.316
<v Speaker 2>serial killer things? And you're like, that's the take home lesson.

0:25:41.396 --> 0:25:44.196
<v Speaker 2>The take home lesson is that they want female serial killers.

0:25:44.396 --> 0:25:46.476
<v Speaker 2>And the same thing I felt with Wonder Woman. I

0:25:46.476 --> 0:25:50.476
<v Speaker 2>felt like Wonder Woman was there was just so much

0:25:50.516 --> 0:25:53.836
<v Speaker 2>emphasis on gender where it was like, Oh, everybody wants

0:25:53.836 --> 0:25:56.276
<v Speaker 2>to see a woman directing a woman's story. I'm like,

0:25:56.476 --> 0:25:58.196
<v Speaker 2>is that it It's not because of the movie. It's

0:25:58.236 --> 0:26:00.796
<v Speaker 2>not the hero's journey, it's not you know. It's like

0:26:01.476 --> 0:26:04.276
<v Speaker 2>and then there are a hundred women get women action

0:26:04.596 --> 0:26:07.076
<v Speaker 2>things made on the It's like it's always it's the

0:26:07.116 --> 0:26:11.996
<v Speaker 2>wrong lesson. But but I think in the there's so

0:26:12.076 --> 0:26:15.076
<v Speaker 2>much focus on the woman part of it versus being like, Oh,

0:26:15.116 --> 0:26:18.116
<v Speaker 2>it's a good film and it's an unorthodox film, but

0:26:18.116 --> 0:26:20.116
<v Speaker 2>they pulled it off. Instead, it's just like, oh, female

0:26:20.116 --> 0:26:22.556
<v Speaker 2>serial killers, that's it, That's what everybody wanted.

0:26:23.596 --> 0:26:27.316
<v Speaker 1>At what point do you think it would change, Like,

0:26:27.596 --> 0:26:30.116
<v Speaker 1>give me a hypothetical, what would have to happen in

0:26:30.116 --> 0:26:32.476
<v Speaker 1>your career for people to say you want to do it.

0:26:32.956 --> 0:26:35.076
<v Speaker 1>Given your track record, let's go for it.

0:26:36.156 --> 0:26:39.756
<v Speaker 2>I mean, honestly, I don't know too many of the

0:26:39.796 --> 0:26:44.076
<v Speaker 2>women I know who have had major successes are also

0:26:44.396 --> 0:26:47.316
<v Speaker 2>we all behind closed doors whisper about how it sort

0:26:47.316 --> 0:26:49.836
<v Speaker 2>of doesn't. I think the world is really really long

0:26:49.836 --> 0:26:51.996
<v Speaker 2>way away from that. It's not going to happen in

0:26:52.036 --> 0:26:54.476
<v Speaker 2>my lifetime. I think it's you know, I may find

0:26:54.476 --> 0:26:56.516
<v Speaker 2>my own financing and have my own people and get

0:26:56.556 --> 0:27:00.756
<v Speaker 2>my own movies made. But I think that the world

0:27:00.916 --> 0:27:07.356
<v Speaker 2>is still genuinely run way behind closed doors by the

0:27:07.396 --> 0:27:11.196
<v Speaker 2>same people who have a desire for the interests that

0:27:11.236 --> 0:27:14.596
<v Speaker 2>they have, and no matter who they're putting on the

0:27:14.636 --> 0:27:17.916
<v Speaker 2>lower levels, the mandate is still bumping up to that level.

0:27:17.956 --> 0:27:21.396
<v Speaker 2>And the truth is like, we're real far from really

0:27:22.036 --> 0:27:27.036
<v Speaker 2>diverse voices being understood and embraced. And it's not about

0:27:27.036 --> 0:27:29.196
<v Speaker 2>money either. So that's the unfortunate thing.

0:27:32.076 --> 0:27:53.356
<v Speaker 1>I'll be right back with more from Patty Jenkins. While

0:27:53.396 --> 0:27:56.116
<v Speaker 1>Patty was telling me about her dog prison fairy tale,

0:27:56.476 --> 0:27:59.036
<v Speaker 1>I kept thinking about what the story shares with Monster,

0:27:59.756 --> 0:28:03.636
<v Speaker 1>how upbringing and events can conspire to wound people or

0:28:03.716 --> 0:28:07.876
<v Speaker 1>dogs and shape what we expect from them. Monster and

0:28:07.916 --> 0:28:10.756
<v Speaker 1>I am Superman both stories that ask us to look

0:28:10.796 --> 0:28:15.236
<v Speaker 1>for nuance in some very dark places. Jenkins, I was thinking,

0:28:15.436 --> 0:28:19.276
<v Speaker 1>seems compelled by these kinds of dark places, So I

0:28:19.316 --> 0:28:23.476
<v Speaker 1>asked her about it. Where where does this come from?

0:28:23.516 --> 0:28:27.796
<v Speaker 2>In you? So it's funny because I think we both

0:28:27.876 --> 0:28:33.396
<v Speaker 2>have very backgrounds of a lot of exposure and travel,

0:28:33.716 --> 0:28:35.556
<v Speaker 2>and I think that that's I. You know, when I

0:28:35.596 --> 0:28:38.716
<v Speaker 2>was little, we moved to Vietna, to Thailand and during

0:28:38.716 --> 0:28:40.556
<v Speaker 2>the Vietnam War, and then we moved.

0:28:40.276 --> 0:28:42.196
<v Speaker 1>To You're an Air Force brat.

0:28:42.196 --> 0:28:45.476
<v Speaker 2>Are Air Force brat? Yeah, And I think I grew

0:28:45.596 --> 0:28:49.356
<v Speaker 2>up consciously or unconsciously in the shadow of the Vietnam

0:28:49.396 --> 0:28:54.076
<v Speaker 2>War in Thailand, you know, with my father's people dying

0:28:54.356 --> 0:28:56.556
<v Speaker 2>right and left, and the plant, you know, everything that's

0:28:56.596 --> 0:29:00.036
<v Speaker 2>really going on. So I think I was I was

0:29:00.156 --> 0:29:07.396
<v Speaker 2>born into the around the darkness in a familiar way.

0:29:07.476 --> 0:29:09.636
<v Speaker 2>And then my own father passed away in a plane crash,

0:29:09.676 --> 0:29:12.116
<v Speaker 2>and you know, all these things, and I lived all

0:29:12.116 --> 0:29:16.276
<v Speaker 2>over the place. So then I've always never quite been

0:29:16.436 --> 0:29:19.636
<v Speaker 2>one type of person. I'm not like from somewhere and

0:29:19.876 --> 0:29:22.716
<v Speaker 2>like of a type, and so I've always been curious

0:29:22.716 --> 0:29:25.636
<v Speaker 2>in all types of people and what's going on with you,

0:29:25.876 --> 0:29:29.436
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not daunted by the darkness, and as a result,

0:29:29.596 --> 0:29:31.836
<v Speaker 2>I ended up making friends with all kinds of people

0:29:31.916 --> 0:29:35.556
<v Speaker 2>my whole life. Like I've been friends with definitely people

0:29:35.556 --> 0:29:37.916
<v Speaker 2>who have done some terrible things and ended up in prison.

0:29:37.996 --> 0:29:40.676
<v Speaker 2>And as much as I've been friends with, you know,

0:29:41.196 --> 0:29:44.756
<v Speaker 2>upper class socialites or whatever, I've known all kinds of people.

0:29:44.756 --> 0:29:49.516
<v Speaker 2>But I think that the people who end up living

0:29:49.756 --> 0:29:51.796
<v Speaker 2>some of the most dangerous lives have I have a

0:29:51.836 --> 0:29:56.716
<v Speaker 2>real soft spot for because I've watched them turn into

0:29:56.796 --> 0:30:01.276
<v Speaker 2>those people and seen how how misunderstood they are and

0:30:03.076 --> 0:30:06.516
<v Speaker 2>how easy it would be to happen to anybody should

0:30:06.516 --> 0:30:09.116
<v Speaker 2>they were. They the ones that went through that journey.

0:30:09.196 --> 0:30:12.076
<v Speaker 2>So it's just it's not my only as you can see,

0:30:12.116 --> 0:30:15.036
<v Speaker 2>like wonder Woman is also my interest, you know, like

0:30:15.076 --> 0:30:17.876
<v Speaker 2>I have Arrested development is also my interest. I have

0:30:17.996 --> 0:30:20.596
<v Speaker 2>lots and lots of interests. I think the reason I

0:30:20.676 --> 0:30:24.996
<v Speaker 2>like such diverse work myself is because because of what

0:30:25.036 --> 0:30:27.116
<v Speaker 2>I just said, I'm not one type of person. I've

0:30:27.116 --> 0:30:29.996
<v Speaker 2>had to learn how to live in different circumstances at

0:30:29.996 --> 0:30:34.996
<v Speaker 2>different times. But this issue, these issues definitely are near

0:30:34.996 --> 0:30:37.036
<v Speaker 2>and dear to my heart. And also I think the

0:30:37.036 --> 0:30:42.716
<v Speaker 2>most misunderstood because people have so little access to understanding

0:30:42.756 --> 0:30:43.436
<v Speaker 2>these stories.

0:30:44.236 --> 0:30:45.556
<v Speaker 1>How old were you when your dad died?

0:30:46.156 --> 0:30:46.516
<v Speaker 2>Seven?

0:30:47.836 --> 0:30:52.316
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Wow? I always think about you know. In one

0:30:52.316 --> 0:30:55.436
<v Speaker 1>of my books, I had a whole section on what

0:30:55.676 --> 0:30:59.476
<v Speaker 1>the I think does all this work on what happens

0:30:59.476 --> 0:31:02.956
<v Speaker 1>to people when they lose a parent at a young age.

0:31:03.036 --> 0:31:07.316
<v Speaker 1>And it's this incredible study that was done in England

0:31:07.316 --> 0:31:13.196
<v Speaker 1>of extraordinarily high percentage of high achieving people lost a

0:31:13.356 --> 0:31:18.516
<v Speaker 1>parent in youth. And wow. The argument is that it

0:31:18.916 --> 0:31:22.156
<v Speaker 1>has one of two effects. You know, it's like, you know,

0:31:22.156 --> 0:31:25.196
<v Speaker 1>it's a Nietzschean thing. It either crushes you or it

0:31:25.276 --> 0:31:29.836
<v Speaker 1>makes you stronger. You've gone through just about the most

0:31:30.636 --> 0:31:33.196
<v Speaker 1>horrendous thing that can happen to a child, and if

0:31:33.196 --> 0:31:35.996
<v Speaker 1>you can emerge from the other side of that, you're

0:31:36.076 --> 0:31:40.836
<v Speaker 1>kind of toughened in some way. I'm just I'm just

0:31:40.916 --> 0:31:46.596
<v Speaker 1>using by how drawn you are to investigating this kind

0:31:46.636 --> 0:31:52.276
<v Speaker 1>of darkness and finding some some value in it. Mm hmm.

0:31:53.396 --> 0:31:55.396
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's or some understanding.

0:31:54.996 --> 0:31:58.516
<v Speaker 2>Well said, that's well said understanding. I think it was.

0:31:58.676 --> 0:32:02.116
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting to look back on this and how first

0:32:02.156 --> 0:32:04.836
<v Speaker 2>of all, it was the definitive event in my life

0:32:05.036 --> 0:32:07.876
<v Speaker 2>was my father dying. It was had a huge, huge

0:32:09.116 --> 0:32:13.236
<v Speaker 2>on everything after, particularly in my youth. I think it

0:32:13.316 --> 0:32:16.356
<v Speaker 2>was funny and watching Anatomy of a Fall this last year,

0:32:16.396 --> 0:32:19.636
<v Speaker 2>what I thought was so interesting that and illuminating to

0:32:19.676 --> 0:32:22.476
<v Speaker 2>me was how condescending everyone is to the child about

0:32:22.476 --> 0:32:27.316
<v Speaker 2>their understanding of what's going on. And that really rang

0:32:27.476 --> 0:32:30.996
<v Speaker 2>true to me, where I think that a lot of people,

0:32:31.036 --> 0:32:34.556
<v Speaker 2>even at our age, don't necessarily know how bad bad

0:32:34.636 --> 0:32:36.996
<v Speaker 2>can be, Like they just don't know they haven't been

0:32:37.116 --> 0:32:39.796
<v Speaker 2>close to it, to the worst possible thing that could

0:32:39.836 --> 0:32:44.196
<v Speaker 2>ever happen to you happening. And when it happens to

0:32:44.236 --> 0:32:46.636
<v Speaker 2>you as a child, you're obsessed with your parents at

0:32:46.676 --> 0:32:48.916
<v Speaker 2>seven years old, you are in love with them. And

0:32:48.956 --> 0:32:51.556
<v Speaker 2>my father was like such a heroic figure, like taking

0:32:51.556 --> 0:32:53.796
<v Speaker 2>off on his motorcycle every day and then flying off

0:32:53.796 --> 0:32:55.356
<v Speaker 2>in his F four. You know, it's like he was

0:32:55.396 --> 0:32:59.236
<v Speaker 2>like a superhero in my life. So to have that

0:32:59.396 --> 0:33:02.556
<v Speaker 2>happen and then tell me you'll never see him again,

0:33:02.676 --> 0:33:08.716
<v Speaker 2>like it was such exquisite revealing of how bad the

0:33:08.756 --> 0:33:12.636
<v Speaker 2>world can be. And now when I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah,

0:33:12.756 --> 0:33:14.836
<v Speaker 2>people are saying to you, like, oh, every cloud has

0:33:14.836 --> 0:33:16.836
<v Speaker 2>a silver lining and all these things, and you're like,

0:33:17.116 --> 0:33:19.716
<v Speaker 2>I want to die, Like you're done, it's your suicidal, really,

0:33:19.916 --> 0:33:22.956
<v Speaker 2>your your interest in this place is over. And I

0:33:22.996 --> 0:33:26.156
<v Speaker 2>only now realize that looking back, I'm like, oh, all

0:33:26.196 --> 0:33:28.956
<v Speaker 2>of these words, and how I was probably being viewed

0:33:28.956 --> 0:33:32.076
<v Speaker 2>as a seven year old is she'll forget him, she'll

0:33:32.076 --> 0:33:35.876
<v Speaker 2>get over him, she'll and you're like, dude, I can't.

0:33:35.916 --> 0:33:38.956
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be here where that can happen

0:33:38.956 --> 0:33:41.516
<v Speaker 2>at any moment. I don't trust any of this now,

0:33:42.676 --> 0:33:46.676
<v Speaker 2>And so I think that it's it's a very interesting

0:33:46.836 --> 0:33:49.396
<v Speaker 2>thing that you do have to kind of toughen yourself

0:33:49.476 --> 0:33:53.356
<v Speaker 2>and learn how to exist in that world where you

0:33:53.476 --> 0:33:55.636
<v Speaker 2>know that that can. And I still really struggle with it.

0:33:55.676 --> 0:33:57.956
<v Speaker 2>I really struggle with it as it relates to my child,

0:33:58.276 --> 0:34:02.476
<v Speaker 2>where I'm like it with the knowing how bad bad

0:34:02.516 --> 0:34:05.996
<v Speaker 2>can be, like knowing that we all feel like it's

0:34:05.996 --> 0:34:07.556
<v Speaker 2>not going to be us and it can't really happen,

0:34:07.596 --> 0:34:09.516
<v Speaker 2>but it really could, you know, and it happen at

0:34:09.516 --> 0:34:11.196
<v Speaker 2>any moment, and there's nothing you can do about it,

0:34:11.236 --> 0:34:14.876
<v Speaker 2>you know. Interestingly, I don't think I would be the

0:34:14.876 --> 0:34:17.516
<v Speaker 2>director I am if my father hadn't died and then

0:34:17.556 --> 0:34:19.956
<v Speaker 2>I think monster I made literally directly about the death

0:34:19.956 --> 0:34:21.916
<v Speaker 2>of my father. It was about like, oh, okay, cool,

0:34:22.036 --> 0:34:24.796
<v Speaker 2>everything works out, everything happens, Like the voiceover in that

0:34:24.876 --> 0:34:27.476
<v Speaker 2>movie is saying, everything, you know, it's all these myths

0:34:27.756 --> 0:34:30.196
<v Speaker 2>that she's heard throughout her youth. If you just you know,

0:34:30.236 --> 0:34:33.596
<v Speaker 2>if you just love and believe in yourself, anything can happen. Nope,

0:34:33.636 --> 0:34:36.436
<v Speaker 2>not for Eileen Warnis, you know. So that it was

0:34:36.476 --> 0:34:41.956
<v Speaker 2>a direct a chance for me to express how dark

0:34:41.996 --> 0:34:44.996
<v Speaker 2>the world can be that people might not realize. And

0:34:45.076 --> 0:34:48.236
<v Speaker 2>I think the driven part, what's interesting, don't I'd have

0:34:48.276 --> 0:34:49.836
<v Speaker 2>to think about what I think it is that makes

0:34:49.836 --> 0:34:53.236
<v Speaker 2>you driven. For me, I was. I was passionate to

0:34:53.316 --> 0:34:55.956
<v Speaker 2>take control of the narrative. And my original reason for

0:34:55.996 --> 0:34:57.836
<v Speaker 2>wanting to be a filmmaker was that I thought that

0:34:57.836 --> 0:35:00.596
<v Speaker 2>the stories were always going to be terrible in real life.

0:35:00.676 --> 0:35:02.436
<v Speaker 2>So I was like, so, I want to tell my story.

0:35:02.556 --> 0:35:04.876
<v Speaker 2>I want to be the one who controls the story,

0:35:04.956 --> 0:35:08.476
<v Speaker 2>so at least I can live a good outcome there,

0:35:08.756 --> 0:35:11.916
<v Speaker 2>you know. And I turned out to be pleasantly wrong that,

0:35:12.076 --> 0:35:14.476
<v Speaker 2>you know. I've lived a wonderful knock on wood life

0:35:14.596 --> 0:35:17.836
<v Speaker 2>in so many ways. But yeah, I think it was

0:35:17.836 --> 0:35:19.516
<v Speaker 2>like it made me very, very driven.

0:35:21.556 --> 0:35:27.876
<v Speaker 1>So now you're now you want to take uh this

0:35:27.956 --> 0:35:31.556
<v Speaker 1>story back out and try and maybe.

0:35:30.756 --> 0:35:32.236
<v Speaker 2>I haven't decided. I haven't decided.

0:35:32.396 --> 0:35:37.036
<v Speaker 1>Tell me how you would knowing what you know. By

0:35:37.076 --> 0:35:43.316
<v Speaker 1>the way, what you just said is incredibly Uh, it's

0:35:43.316 --> 0:35:46.636
<v Speaker 1>sort of it's it. It's it's moved. I mean, it's

0:35:46.676 --> 0:35:52.756
<v Speaker 1>really moved. I mean it's incredibly kind of moving. And

0:35:52.756 --> 0:35:58.276
<v Speaker 1>and honest, you why you do what you do. What's

0:35:58.596 --> 0:36:01.996
<v Speaker 1>what's interesting is that what is for most of us.

0:36:02.916 --> 0:36:06.476
<v Speaker 1>You know, I've had a when I was growing up

0:36:06.516 --> 0:36:09.596
<v Speaker 1>as a kid, I you know, thought all the time

0:36:09.596 --> 0:36:12.316
<v Speaker 1>about what it would mean if I lost one of

0:36:12.356 --> 0:36:16.276
<v Speaker 1>my parents. But it was an abstract thought. For you,

0:36:16.356 --> 0:36:21.716
<v Speaker 1>it's real. That's the difference. So I can't As a kid,

0:36:21.716 --> 0:36:24.796
<v Speaker 1>when I thought about that, it wasn't something I could

0:36:24.876 --> 0:36:26.956
<v Speaker 1>put into words. It wasn't something I could make real

0:36:27.036 --> 0:36:29.276
<v Speaker 1>to anyone else. It was just a kind of It's

0:36:29.276 --> 0:36:32.276
<v Speaker 1>the kind of weird kind of fantasy you have, dark

0:36:32.316 --> 0:36:33.876
<v Speaker 1>fantasy you have at three in the morning, you're like,

0:36:33.876 --> 0:36:36.876
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, what would happen if but you actually,

0:36:36.996 --> 0:36:40.276
<v Speaker 1>by virtue of gone going through it, you knew what it.

0:36:41.716 --> 0:36:45.796
<v Speaker 2>Felt like mm hmm, but yeah, because after my father died,

0:36:45.836 --> 0:36:49.436
<v Speaker 2>then my sister had a like the most beautiful friend,

0:36:49.796 --> 0:36:52.796
<v Speaker 2>runaway boy who came and lived with us, and I

0:36:52.876 --> 0:36:54.076
<v Speaker 2>was like so in love with him. He was like

0:36:54.076 --> 0:36:56.156
<v Speaker 2>three years older than us, Paul Penzini. He was like

0:36:56.236 --> 0:37:00.076
<v Speaker 2>beautiful and you know, and he'd run away and was

0:37:00.116 --> 0:37:01.996
<v Speaker 2>living in our house. And then he had to go

0:37:02.076 --> 0:37:03.636
<v Speaker 2>visit a cousin and he got shot in the head

0:37:03.836 --> 0:37:06.756
<v Speaker 2>and killed. And so I was between those two things.

0:37:06.836 --> 0:37:11.316
<v Speaker 2>I was like, this place sucks, I you know. Was

0:37:11.836 --> 0:37:16.756
<v Speaker 2>it made me very romantic though, like you interestingly that

0:37:16.876 --> 0:37:19.596
<v Speaker 2>kind of tragedy I think, particularly for the opposite sex

0:37:19.676 --> 0:37:22.796
<v Speaker 2>parent and then the opposite sex older brother figure. It

0:37:22.916 --> 0:37:26.676
<v Speaker 2>made me so romantic about everything, but about like love

0:37:26.756 --> 0:37:33.916
<v Speaker 2>and longing and loss. I think it's like I take

0:37:33.996 --> 0:37:37.436
<v Speaker 2>for granted my familiarity with the darkness, but of course

0:37:37.476 --> 0:37:39.636
<v Speaker 2>the romance of the stories I want to tell are

0:37:39.756 --> 0:37:45.196
<v Speaker 2>very much born from that, And so I think I

0:37:45.356 --> 0:37:49.156
<v Speaker 2>sort of thought I was this much darker, rebellious, the

0:37:49.196 --> 0:37:52.476
<v Speaker 2>type of person that makes monster in my youth, and

0:37:52.516 --> 0:37:55.116
<v Speaker 2>now I realize I'm not that person. I'm also the

0:37:55.116 --> 0:37:57.716
<v Speaker 2>person that makes wonder woman I'm all kinds of you know,

0:37:57.796 --> 0:38:00.556
<v Speaker 2>like I've grown up. I'm not just that person. But

0:38:00.836 --> 0:38:02.716
<v Speaker 2>so I think that makes me look back and say, yeah,

0:38:02.716 --> 0:38:05.316
<v Speaker 2>why do I have that much darkness? Oh that's interesting,

0:38:05.436 --> 0:38:07.796
<v Speaker 2>let's look back. You you really don't you just you

0:38:07.916 --> 0:38:10.516
<v Speaker 2>just go forward for a long long time before you say, like,

0:38:10.836 --> 0:38:12.876
<v Speaker 2>how do I explain to people that I made Monster

0:38:12.956 --> 0:38:13.996
<v Speaker 2>and I made wonder Woman?

0:38:14.076 --> 0:38:19.956
<v Speaker 1>You know? So, if you were to take this movie

0:38:19.996 --> 0:38:25.516
<v Speaker 1>back out, knowing what you know both about your the

0:38:25.556 --> 0:38:29.956
<v Speaker 1>first round of attempts with it and about yourself, how

0:38:29.996 --> 0:38:32.276
<v Speaker 1>would you pitch it differently?

0:38:33.636 --> 0:38:35.476
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I would pitch it. First of all,

0:38:35.796 --> 0:38:37.676
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I would. I think I would try

0:38:37.676 --> 0:38:40.916
<v Speaker 2>to stack it up with my own financing and control

0:38:41.236 --> 0:38:44.276
<v Speaker 2>because I think I made I've made my peace with

0:38:44.356 --> 0:38:49.556
<v Speaker 2>the fact that it might not be the easiest thing

0:38:49.676 --> 0:38:53.116
<v Speaker 2>to trust, and so you kind of need to be

0:38:53.196 --> 0:38:55.596
<v Speaker 2>left alone to make it. I maybe would take it

0:38:55.596 --> 0:38:57.156
<v Speaker 2>to one or two places. But I don't think I

0:38:57.156 --> 0:38:59.316
<v Speaker 2>would go out, you know, with my hands out hoping

0:38:59.316 --> 0:39:03.436
<v Speaker 2>that Hollywood understands this film. Now I'm playing the game

0:39:03.556 --> 0:39:07.396
<v Speaker 2>in a more sophisticated way now, with age and with experience,

0:39:07.436 --> 0:39:08.956
<v Speaker 2>where you're sort of like, oh, I see what this

0:39:09.036 --> 0:39:11.196
<v Speaker 2>is and I see how it could go wrong, and

0:39:11.276 --> 0:39:14.916
<v Speaker 2>just to give this film a winning hand, I'd need

0:39:15.036 --> 0:39:17.836
<v Speaker 2>the space to actually make it what it could be,

0:39:17.956 --> 0:39:20.116
<v Speaker 2>not be fielding a bunch of notes from a bunch

0:39:20.116 --> 0:39:22.876
<v Speaker 2>of people who are afraid who needed to you know who,

0:39:24.036 --> 0:39:25.996
<v Speaker 2>that they've never seen a film like this before. So

0:39:26.156 --> 0:39:29.476
<v Speaker 2>I think, yeah, it's more just about how to set

0:39:29.476 --> 0:39:30.516
<v Speaker 2>yourself up to succeed.

0:39:31.276 --> 0:39:34.196
<v Speaker 1>I want to see this movie. Were you were you?

0:39:34.276 --> 0:39:35.156
<v Speaker 1>Maybe well were you?

0:39:35.276 --> 0:39:38.276
<v Speaker 2>Probly you'll If I don't make it, I'll come back

0:39:38.276 --> 0:39:39.476
<v Speaker 2>and tell you the rest of the story.

0:39:40.676 --> 0:39:50.436
<v Speaker 1>This has been fantastic. This episode was produced by Nina

0:39:50.476 --> 0:39:53.676
<v Speaker 1>Bird Lawrence with Tali Emlin and ben A Dapph Haffrey.

0:39:54.196 --> 0:39:58.076
<v Speaker 1>Editing by Sarah Nicks, original scoring by Luis Quira, Engineering

0:39:58.076 --> 0:40:02.876
<v Speaker 1>by Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm

0:40:02.916 --> 0:40:03.676
<v Speaker 1>Malcolm Gladwell.