1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. You called it a fairy tale? Yeah, do you have? 2 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:27,076 Speaker 1: Is there a fairy tale that you were inspired by? 3 00:00:27,796 --> 00:00:28,916 Speaker 1: Which fairy tale is this? 4 00:00:29,516 --> 00:00:32,356 Speaker 2: I don't know if there's one. I think it's so 5 00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:35,036 Speaker 2: the opening, the opening of the movie is and this 6 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:36,916 Speaker 2: will just tell you the tone. There's a voice over 7 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:41,396 Speaker 2: throughout the movie, and the opening shot is you're pushing 8 00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 2: in on this kennel in the middle of nowhere, and 9 00:00:45,636 --> 00:00:48,316 Speaker 2: it's out in the field, and it's like there once was, 10 00:00:48,556 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 2: you know, an animal named Bandit, and the Bandit used 11 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 2: to have had dreams of blah blah blah, blah blah. 12 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 2: And you're pushing in, pushing in, pushing in, until you 13 00:00:56,636 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 2: get to this pit bull sitting at the center, and 14 00:00:58,596 --> 00:01:02,276 Speaker 2: it's a thing of fighting pipules. And he named himself 15 00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 2: Bandit because and you see a flash of a little 16 00:01:05,476 --> 00:01:07,876 Speaker 2: boy that the dog had seen from his kennel far 17 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:10,316 Speaker 2: far away, playing with his puppy, named Bandit, and Bandit 18 00:01:10,356 --> 00:01:13,116 Speaker 2: had dreams of one day being that dog, and he 19 00:01:13,156 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 2: hoped that one day someone would give him a chance 20 00:01:15,316 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 2: and believe in him. And this dog trainer comes, the 21 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 2: fighting trainer and takes band It out, and he's like 22 00:01:20,276 --> 00:01:22,636 Speaker 2: come on, get out of here. And he's pushing, dragging 23 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:24,956 Speaker 2: him along, and then he's like, but that's many, many 24 00:01:24,996 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 2: years ago, and Bandit suddenly turns around and just fucking 25 00:01:27,756 --> 00:01:32,516 Speaker 2: launches it as trainer and kills the dude. And at 26 00:01:32,516 --> 00:01:36,316 Speaker 2: this point in Bandit's life, all Bandit ever wanted was 27 00:01:36,476 --> 00:01:39,116 Speaker 2: just revenge, you know, like just bloody revenge for the 28 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:41,076 Speaker 2: life that he's lived. I'm not remembering it verbat him. 29 00:01:41,076 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 2: It was a long time ago, but it's like and 30 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:45,956 Speaker 2: all he wanted was just one shot, just to get 31 00:01:45,996 --> 00:01:48,516 Speaker 2: paidback and nothing more. And then you just push in 32 00:01:48,556 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 2: on him and he's just got blood down his neck. 33 00:01:58,276 --> 00:02:02,236 Speaker 1: Welcome to Development Hell, our mini series about the movies 34 00:02:02,596 --> 00:02:07,156 Speaker 1: that Hollywood never made. This episode is about a film 35 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 1: starring a dog, I Misunderstood Dog, that the filmmaker Patty 36 00:02:11,796 --> 00:02:15,116 Speaker 1: Jenkins wanted to make. You've heard of her, I'm sure 37 00:02:15,556 --> 00:02:19,356 Speaker 1: her debut feature was A Monster, an incredible portrait of 38 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: Eileen Warenose, a prostitute who killed seven of her clients. 39 00:02:23,636 --> 00:02:27,316 Speaker 1: Jenkins wrote and directed Monster Charlie's Throne, took the lead 40 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:30,276 Speaker 1: role and went on to win the Best Actress Oscar 41 00:02:30,356 --> 00:02:34,236 Speaker 1: for it. Patty Jenkins next tour of force, directing the 42 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen version of A Wonder Woman. The movie was 43 00:02:37,836 --> 00:02:40,116 Speaker 1: a hit with critics and made more than one hundred 44 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:45,036 Speaker 1: million dollars in its opening weekend. But somewhere between those 45 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:48,916 Speaker 1: two hits, Patty Jenkins had the idea of telling a 46 00:02:48,996 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: different kind of story. 47 00:02:55,756 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 2: So I became aware of these dog prison programs and 48 00:03:00,996 --> 00:03:03,556 Speaker 2: started to really research them and watch them and came 49 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:06,796 Speaker 2: up with this story, which is kind of a fairy 50 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:10,876 Speaker 2: tale that takes place in a dog program where the 51 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 2: lead characters are the dog. And my ambition was to 52 00:03:14,596 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 2: make a rated R dog movie where I wanted the 53 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 2: dog to give a performance so good they discussed whether 54 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:24,036 Speaker 2: to give it an oscar. You know, that was my 55 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:28,796 Speaker 2: whole goal, But there was a heavy there's a serious 56 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:31,116 Speaker 2: tour de force role for a man. 57 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:34,996 Speaker 1: So far in development. Hell, we've only told stories about 58 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:38,476 Speaker 1: men and the movies they haven't made. This is our 59 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 1: first story involving a woman. It's not for lack of trying. 60 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 1: We made call after call. We recorded a truly fantastic 61 00:03:45,796 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 1: episode with a prominent female screenwriter, and then she asked 62 00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:52,396 Speaker 1: us not to run it. With good reason. Her movie 63 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:54,876 Speaker 1: never got made because she ran into a male director 64 00:03:55,036 --> 00:03:57,796 Speaker 1: who didn't get the most beautiful and brilliant part of 65 00:03:57,796 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: her script, and she didn't want to out him, not 66 00:04:00,676 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 1: if she wanted to keep working as a screenwriter. And 67 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:07,076 Speaker 1: she's right. Women in Hollywood play by a very different 68 00:04:07,116 --> 00:04:09,876 Speaker 1: set of rules than men. They don't have the same freedom, 69 00:04:10,076 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 1: and more specifically, they're not allowed to tell the same 70 00:04:12,796 --> 00:04:16,596 Speaker 1: kinds of stories, which was the brick wall that Patty 71 00:04:16,676 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 1: Jenkins ran into with her fairy tale about a misunderstood 72 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:22,196 Speaker 1: pitbull named Bandit. 73 00:04:26,476 --> 00:04:29,356 Speaker 2: This is a bad dog, right for sure. You end 74 00:04:29,436 --> 00:04:32,396 Speaker 2: up realizing as the story goes by, these trainers beat 75 00:04:32,436 --> 00:04:34,476 Speaker 2: the shit out of these dogs, they abuse them, and 76 00:04:34,516 --> 00:04:36,196 Speaker 2: so yeah, every once in a while they're going to 77 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 2: turn on and kill somebody. And that's life, you know. 78 00:04:38,876 --> 00:04:41,956 Speaker 2: I obviously, having made Monster, have sympathy for why people 79 00:04:41,996 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 2: do the things that they do and interest in why 80 00:04:44,356 --> 00:04:47,516 Speaker 2: they do the things that they do. But I think 81 00:04:47,556 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 2: that's also what the core of the story is. By 82 00:04:49,396 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 2: the end of the movie, you've seen that bann It 83 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 2: is this wonderful dog if someone had just given him 84 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 2: a chance to prove what he's capable of doing. 85 00:04:56,636 --> 00:05:00,756 Speaker 1: Patty, Patty hold on, yeahackup dog prisons. So tell me 86 00:05:00,796 --> 00:05:02,996 Speaker 1: the story, Tell me the story, and tell me what 87 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:03,916 Speaker 1: a dog prison is. 88 00:05:04,156 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 2: So there are these programs throughout the country where they 89 00:05:07,356 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 2: put dogs, unadoptable dogs in with inmates and they have 90 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 2: those inmates rehabilitate the dogs. And what's an incredible thing 91 00:05:16,476 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 2: about it is that the closer you get to studying 92 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:23,556 Speaker 2: why and what's happening in these prison programs, you realize 93 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 2: and this is very much what the movie was about, 94 00:05:26,556 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 2: that you're talking about a population of people that no 95 00:05:28,996 --> 00:05:32,476 Speaker 2: one gives a second chance to. And this will come 96 00:05:32,476 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 2: back around to because it's, ironically, I think, related to 97 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 2: why I could not get the movie made. Everybody wants 98 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:40,996 Speaker 2: to believe that these are bad guys, they're only interested 99 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:43,596 Speaker 2: in having them suffer and pay their dues. But the 100 00:05:43,596 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 2: truth is that the closer you get to prison, the 101 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:49,156 Speaker 2: more you realize that prisons are mostly full of just 102 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:52,916 Speaker 2: poor people. The prisons are full of guys who have changed, 103 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:56,316 Speaker 2: never were that bad, have been in since Juvie, and 104 00:05:56,436 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 2: there's no way out. So the incredible thing about these 105 00:05:59,396 --> 00:06:04,076 Speaker 2: dog programs is that they you're looking at a population 106 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:06,916 Speaker 2: of people that nobody is interested in anything other than 107 00:06:06,956 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 2: having them pay their dues and then in these animals 108 00:06:10,436 --> 00:06:13,036 Speaker 2: that don't see them that way and need them to 109 00:06:13,076 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 2: be their hero, and the men just come alive. So 110 00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:21,836 Speaker 2: you're using their time to do this incredible thing and 111 00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 2: it ends up being an absolutely stunning program where the 112 00:06:28,036 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 2: inmates that end up being enrolled in this have their 113 00:06:30,956 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 2: acidivism rate drops to almost zero. And that's what the 114 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 2: movie was called. I Am Superman. The guy who gets 115 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:39,396 Speaker 2: paired with this dog names him Superman. 116 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So what is the what's the can you 117 00:06:43,036 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: can you be more specific about the emotional journey of 118 00:06:45,596 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: the actor in this. 119 00:06:47,436 --> 00:06:51,036 Speaker 2: The emotional journey of the actor is is the last 120 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:54,636 Speaker 2: vestige of hope that they can get out and that 121 00:06:54,676 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 2: they can have their life changed, and it's crushed when 122 00:06:58,276 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 2: the prison shuts down the dog program and sends the 123 00:07:01,116 --> 00:07:04,036 Speaker 2: dog away to be put down and all hell breaks loose. 124 00:07:04,676 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 2: The journey of the actor is very much the journey 125 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:10,236 Speaker 2: that I've seen happen with any guys in prison, which 126 00:07:10,276 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 2: is like, oh, I got tricked into thinking that I 127 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 2: could get a ged and I could go and change 128 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 2: my life, But the truth is no, because even when 129 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:19,356 Speaker 2: you get out, nobody's really going to hire you. They're 130 00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:21,236 Speaker 2: not going to give you a chance. They're not going 131 00:07:21,316 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 2: to ever believe that you're different. They're only going to 132 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 2: be interested in the tough guy that you were. And 133 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 2: so what are you gonna do. You're gonna become a 134 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:29,476 Speaker 2: criminal again, because it's at least there's some integrity of 135 00:07:29,556 --> 00:07:32,156 Speaker 2: being a bad guy, you know, like there's no integrity 136 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 2: of being a loser. And so it's that's his journey, 137 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 2: and it ends up going differently than that in the end, 138 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 2: but only by a miracle. And so the movie was 139 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:46,356 Speaker 2: a fairy tale about a single dog, and the dog's 140 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:48,756 Speaker 2: opening scene of the movie, the dog kills its trainer. 141 00:07:49,156 --> 00:07:51,236 Speaker 2: It's like sitting on top of him with blood dripping 142 00:07:51,276 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 2: down its mouth. It's a fighting pit bull, and he 143 00:07:54,636 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 2: gets put in a shelter and is supposed to be 144 00:07:57,716 --> 00:08:00,516 Speaker 2: put down. But this dog gets accidentally put in the 145 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:04,716 Speaker 2: program and the inmate that gets paired with him has 146 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 2: just been brought back into prison after being he had 147 00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:13,596 Speaker 2: just and he's been accused of another crime. But because 148 00:08:13,636 --> 00:08:17,516 Speaker 2: he had had, you know, had been a good history 149 00:08:17,556 --> 00:08:19,796 Speaker 2: when he was in prison before, they let him get 150 00:08:19,796 --> 00:08:23,196 Speaker 2: into this program. But he hates dogs, and so it's 151 00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 2: the story of this this terrible pit bull supposedly and 152 00:08:27,916 --> 00:08:30,796 Speaker 2: this terrible man who are paired together, who actually hate 153 00:08:30,796 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 2: each other, who have to go through this program together. 154 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:35,516 Speaker 2: And I can't tell you the whole story because I 155 00:08:35,516 --> 00:08:38,556 Speaker 2: still may make this movie and I don't want everybody 156 00:08:38,596 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 2: to know everything. But the truth is it doesn't go 157 00:08:41,316 --> 00:08:43,476 Speaker 2: the way you think. It's not a touchy feeling. I'm 158 00:08:43,476 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 2: not interested in just straightforward issue movies. So this is 159 00:08:49,556 --> 00:08:51,636 Speaker 2: this is very much a fairy tale, and the story 160 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 2: goes slightly differently than you think it would, but but 161 00:08:55,276 --> 00:08:56,316 Speaker 2: it's wonderful. 162 00:08:56,596 --> 00:08:58,836 Speaker 1: Can you give us one tiny little hint of a 163 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:00,316 Speaker 1: little direction that it goes in. 164 00:09:00,676 --> 00:09:03,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, you would, one would assume, and will assume that 165 00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:08,156 Speaker 2: it is that the man and the dog change each other. Yeah, 166 00:09:08,316 --> 00:09:10,916 Speaker 2: they do start to change each other. But then the 167 00:09:11,076 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 2: entire program is sabotaged by the prison and by the 168 00:09:14,596 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 2: administration and by the corruption, which is exactly what really 169 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:23,156 Speaker 2: is going on in these prison situations, and things turn 170 00:09:23,196 --> 00:09:25,676 Speaker 2: out very very differently, like a bunch of different people 171 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:26,876 Speaker 2: go a different way. 172 00:09:27,556 --> 00:09:29,476 Speaker 1: Who do we root for more by the end, the 173 00:09:29,516 --> 00:09:31,516 Speaker 1: dog or both? 174 00:09:32,756 --> 00:09:34,836 Speaker 2: I mean, you really get to know them both and 175 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 2: you understand. You end up understanding how misunderstood they are 176 00:09:39,796 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 2: completely and how disinterested in anybody is in what's really 177 00:09:44,476 --> 00:09:47,436 Speaker 2: their story, except they figure out what's up with each other, 178 00:09:47,756 --> 00:09:50,076 Speaker 2: but nobody else cares or is open to it. 179 00:09:51,276 --> 00:09:56,436 Speaker 1: This is this sort of on one level, is super bleak. 180 00:09:57,036 --> 00:10:00,596 Speaker 2: It's not. It's magical, No, it is. It is. The 181 00:10:00,676 --> 00:10:02,876 Speaker 2: journey is bleak, and it seems like it's going to be, 182 00:10:02,876 --> 00:10:05,836 Speaker 2: but it ends up being magical, and I love the 183 00:10:05,916 --> 00:10:10,036 Speaker 2: ending and it's wonderful, but really it's it it. You'd 184 00:10:10,156 --> 00:10:12,076 Speaker 2: like to think that, you know, there are these great 185 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:14,596 Speaker 2: programs and that they're changing people, and so of course 186 00:10:14,596 --> 00:10:18,116 Speaker 2: we're going to continue to do them, But not only 187 00:10:18,156 --> 00:10:21,276 Speaker 2: does that not happen, but then it goes a very 188 00:10:21,276 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: different way, and that goes to the point of why 189 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:27,236 Speaker 2: I think no one ever made the movie, because the 190 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: movie is all about the main character is already changed. 191 00:10:31,236 --> 00:10:36,276 Speaker 2: He's already a changed guy, and so it really ends 192 00:10:36,316 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 2: up being about the corruption that surrounds these guys, where 193 00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:40,916 Speaker 2: even if you've changed and you've become a better person, 194 00:10:41,036 --> 00:10:43,156 Speaker 2: or you've never really done anything, there's no way out 195 00:10:43,156 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 2: because everybody's only interested in seeing you as the tattoos 196 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 2: that you have and the history. 197 00:10:49,796 --> 00:10:52,476 Speaker 1: After the break, Patty and I talk more about dogs 198 00:10:52,916 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 1: and development. Hell, we're back with Patty Jenkins. Are you 199 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:07,916 Speaker 1: a dog person? 200 00:11:08,036 --> 00:11:12,036 Speaker 2: It's not a dog person, fanatical dog person. I love dogs. 201 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 1: What kind of dog do you have? 202 00:11:14,556 --> 00:11:17,356 Speaker 2: I have a pit bull and I have a French bulldog. Yeah, 203 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:19,556 Speaker 2: but I've had pit bulls my whole life. 204 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 1: Did you grow up with dogs as a kid sort of? 205 00:11:23,636 --> 00:11:25,756 Speaker 2: I mean I yes, I was always my mom didn't 206 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 2: want us to have a dog, but I was always 207 00:11:28,076 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 2: finding a way to get dogs, and so yeah, I 208 00:11:30,556 --> 00:11:33,836 Speaker 2: had different dogs. And also my grandparents lived in Mississippi 209 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 2: when I was young, and so I would spend every 210 00:11:37,796 --> 00:11:40,916 Speaker 2: summer down there with them in Mississippi, and there were 211 00:11:40,916 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 2: like twenty thirty pitples there. And this is kind of 212 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:46,356 Speaker 2: before pitbulls had this bad reputation. And so I grew 213 00:11:46,436 --> 00:11:50,156 Speaker 2: up around pit bulls and I understand them and know 214 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 2: them and love them and think that they're so smart 215 00:11:52,156 --> 00:11:55,116 Speaker 2: and interesting. And so that's another thing. 216 00:11:55,396 --> 00:11:58,916 Speaker 1: An incredibly steadfast dog. 217 00:11:59,796 --> 00:12:02,716 Speaker 2: Unbelievably, And by the way, it's not to say that 218 00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 2: there aren't some people breeding hyper aggressive ones. I've always 219 00:12:06,316 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 2: I've never been the person who says, oh, they're just 220 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:10,836 Speaker 2: like any other dog. Dangerous dogs, you need to know 221 00:12:11,436 --> 00:12:14,276 Speaker 2: what you're dealing with. If it does bite somebody, it 222 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:16,676 Speaker 2: can do a lot of damage. They're not very likely 223 00:12:16,716 --> 00:12:20,156 Speaker 2: to bite somebody, and they are incredibly smart and independent 224 00:12:20,196 --> 00:12:23,396 Speaker 2: and emotional dogs, one of the most intelligent breeds. 225 00:12:23,716 --> 00:12:26,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, so how do you first of all, when you 226 00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:32,476 Speaker 1: conceive of a movie that hasn't both you know whose 227 00:12:32,556 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: principal characters are a person and an animal? What challenges 228 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:40,636 Speaker 1: does the Does the dog present huge challenge? 229 00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: I mean chalge? So this is part of what I 230 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:47,116 Speaker 2: was so excited and interested about. My goal was to 231 00:12:47,156 --> 00:12:49,716 Speaker 2: get an honest performance out of a pitbull. They are 232 00:12:49,796 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 2: incredibly emotive dogs and so you can just read what's 233 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 2: going on on their face. So that got me really 234 00:12:56,996 --> 00:12:59,276 Speaker 2: interested in how do we do this, not just having 235 00:12:59,276 --> 00:13:02,156 Speaker 2: a trainer, you know, be over here. Really what it 236 00:13:02,196 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 2: was going to come down to was putting the actor 237 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 2: in the zelle with the dog and actually trying to 238 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 2: elicit that real perform it's out of the dog with 239 00:13:10,716 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 2: almost no crew around. I was always when we would 240 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 2: talk about budget, I was saying, I want to get 241 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 2: the tiniest crew, but I want to shoot a lot 242 00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:21,556 Speaker 2: of days, and so it was just going to be 243 00:13:21,676 --> 00:13:25,516 Speaker 2: slow to try to wait until you get that right 244 00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:29,356 Speaker 2: expression out of the dog and elicit that actual performance 245 00:13:29,396 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 2: from the dog. 246 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:33,316 Speaker 1: And so what are you looking for from the dog specifically? 247 00:13:33,436 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 2: It depends, So it's a whole you know, it's a 248 00:13:35,996 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 2: whole story. So you would need the dog to dislike 249 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 2: the guy and be hostile. You'd need the dog to 250 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:46,516 Speaker 2: become curious and interested but apprehensive, and then the dog 251 00:13:46,596 --> 00:13:49,036 Speaker 2: to you know, start to fall in love with the guy. 252 00:13:49,116 --> 00:13:52,116 Speaker 2: You need the dog to all kinds of things. He 253 00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 2: has to have a moment where he flips out and 254 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:58,796 Speaker 2: so so you would need everything. And that was going 255 00:13:58,876 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 2: to be kind of the sport of it. 256 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 1: But the whole time that you're trying to elicit a 257 00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:05,276 Speaker 1: natural performance from the dog, the dog is aware that 258 00:14:05,316 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 1: there's someone with a camera. 259 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:10,036 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe not. So if you hid enough cameras around 260 00:14:10,556 --> 00:14:13,156 Speaker 2: and laughs, you know, like the way that they do 261 00:14:13,276 --> 00:14:16,756 Speaker 2: like reality shows where their cameras mounted all over the 262 00:14:16,796 --> 00:14:19,476 Speaker 2: car and you know, or comedians in cars with coffee 263 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 2: or like whatever, you can hide different cameras. I would 264 00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:24,956 Speaker 2: shoot it differently than all of my other films, because 265 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 2: everything else I've done, I've done on film, and you know, 266 00:14:28,356 --> 00:14:32,356 Speaker 2: it's a very big, big production. This I would actually 267 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 2: be open to shooting digitally for this very reason, just 268 00:14:35,196 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 2: so that I could get cameras everywhere. The addition, the 269 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 2: other thing I wanted to do was I wanted to 270 00:14:39,956 --> 00:14:42,476 Speaker 2: shoot it in a real prison with inmates as part 271 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 2: part of the crew. There are a couple of prisons 272 00:14:45,676 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 2: that have like two different They have a very busy prison, 273 00:14:49,876 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 2: but they also have like a closed down section of 274 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,836 Speaker 2: the prison nearby, And so I was working on that 275 00:14:55,956 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 2: idea as well. Where you know, just the same way 276 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:00,276 Speaker 2: you would run a dog program, you run a very 277 00:15:00,996 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 2: you know the yard where the kind of vetted inmates are. 278 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 2: You have them come and be trained to work as 279 00:15:08,436 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 2: crew on the film. The problem is it, you know, 280 00:15:11,596 --> 00:15:14,436 Speaker 2: it becomes a little tough if there's lockdowns and things 281 00:15:14,476 --> 00:15:16,116 Speaker 2: like that, and that happens all the time. But this 282 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 2: was all gonna you know, I was going to try 283 00:15:17,636 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 2: to figure out how much of it I could do 284 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:19,836 Speaker 2: that way. 285 00:15:19,836 --> 00:15:21,356 Speaker 1: And what about the actor. 286 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 2: The actor would have to be on board in a 287 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:26,196 Speaker 2: in a different it would be a ride. It would 288 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 2: be like a journey. You and that actor would be 289 00:15:28,356 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 2: on a ride trying to figure out how to do 290 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:33,676 Speaker 2: this film together and try to figure out how. They'd 291 00:15:33,716 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 2: have to love dogs. They'd have to be interested in 292 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 2: the endeavor and it would be you know, interesting to 293 00:15:40,636 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 2: find out how it went. You'd have to be learning 294 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:43,476 Speaker 2: the dog as you went. 295 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,356 Speaker 1: But it's not just have to love dogs. It's that 296 00:15:46,636 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: you're also acting. So in the first part of the relationship, 297 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 1: you have to act that you don't love dogs. 298 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:55,996 Speaker 2: M So again, that would go into camera work. When 299 00:15:56,036 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 2: I've worked with kids before, you sometimes have moments where 300 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 2: the actor is directing the kid off camera. I've had 301 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:07,596 Speaker 2: one where this act, this adult actress was was Geene 302 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:11,196 Speaker 2: Tripplehorn was acting out for the child what the child 303 00:16:11,236 --> 00:16:14,476 Speaker 2: should do. It was wonderful because we couldn't get the 304 00:16:14,556 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 2: kid to totally do it. So, you know, there are 305 00:16:16,996 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 2: many ways to get you know, you might be having 306 00:16:19,436 --> 00:16:21,116 Speaker 2: to do something strange to the dog to get the 307 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 2: dog to react strangely, you're not doing your part. 308 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:27,396 Speaker 1: Oh I see. Yeah, So before we even get to 309 00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:33,716 Speaker 1: the studio, you've got to find an actor who's willing 310 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:35,236 Speaker 1: to do something very unorthodox. 311 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:39,796 Speaker 2: I wouldn't, which I don't think would be that hard actually, 312 00:16:39,876 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 2: because I think it's such a juicy like, it's such 313 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:47,156 Speaker 2: a juicy performance for an actor. It's such a good role. 314 00:16:47,796 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 2: Had been talking to Ryan Gosling about it at the time, 315 00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 2: and this is way back, this is two thousand and 316 00:16:52,996 --> 00:16:56,436 Speaker 2: six of two thousand and five, and then Ryan and 317 00:16:56,476 --> 00:16:59,116 Speaker 2: I were going to sort of do it alternately off 318 00:16:59,156 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 2: and on, but then he kept not being able to 319 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 2: do it or wanting to do it because he'd wanted 320 00:17:02,676 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 2: to go make money or various different things. When I 321 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:07,676 Speaker 2: would try to go to other actors but Ryan Gosling, 322 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 2: I would get the same sort of thing from the guys. 323 00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 2: They wanted to be tough and scary and stab somebody 324 00:17:12,476 --> 00:17:15,556 Speaker 2: in whatever, and and I thought that was such a 325 00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:20,196 Speaker 2: telling thing that that that was a story people struggled 326 00:17:20,676 --> 00:17:24,916 Speaker 2: to embrace, a non redemption story about prison. That was 327 00:17:24,956 --> 00:17:27,956 Speaker 2: the issue I had more of. Interestingly, when I tried 328 00:17:27,996 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 2: to make the film, even the most liberal people in 329 00:17:31,916 --> 00:17:34,876 Speaker 2: Hollywood and the most issue we companies that make these 330 00:17:34,876 --> 00:17:38,316 Speaker 2: films would always say, yeah, but can't he stab somebody 331 00:17:38,316 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 2: at the beginning and be about his redemption? And I 332 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:43,396 Speaker 2: would say no, you're very much missing the point of 333 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 2: the movie. The point of the movie is that you're 334 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 2: romanticizing prison. If you think it's a bunch of super 335 00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:51,556 Speaker 2: dangerous people in there, it's not. I've walked around the 336 00:17:51,556 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 2: main line of Full sum you know, of some of 337 00:17:54,996 --> 00:17:57,556 Speaker 2: the most dangerous prisons in the country, and I'm not 338 00:17:57,636 --> 00:18:02,156 Speaker 2: fraid at all because ninety nine point nine percent of 339 00:18:02,196 --> 00:18:05,516 Speaker 2: the guys are just sad. It's just a sad sack situation. 340 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:09,836 Speaker 2: It's very organized, it's just a warehouse for human beings 341 00:18:09,836 --> 00:18:13,516 Speaker 2: with no way out. And that's what I found so 342 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:15,516 Speaker 2: fascinating about people not wanting to make it is that 343 00:18:15,556 --> 00:18:19,396 Speaker 2: no one's interested in the story about prison not being 344 00:18:19,876 --> 00:18:20,836 Speaker 2: just you know. 345 00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:24,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's it's a what's fast saying about the 346 00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 1: script is you begin I mean, the very thing that 347 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: makes it hard for the studio or an actor is 348 00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:35,156 Speaker 1: what makes it so intriguing for an audience, because you're 349 00:18:35,236 --> 00:18:39,716 Speaker 1: messing with our expectation about an animal movie. We've seen 350 00:18:39,756 --> 00:18:42,036 Speaker 1: animal movies and we know how they work. Right. 351 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 2: That's why I think it's great is because the truth 352 00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:46,316 Speaker 2: is a lot of people also said to me, you 353 00:18:46,356 --> 00:18:48,316 Speaker 2: can't make a rat at oar dog movie. I was like, 354 00:18:48,476 --> 00:18:50,836 Speaker 2: but everybody said you couldn't make a dog movie at all, 355 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:53,436 Speaker 2: and every time they make dog movies they're huge. We 356 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:56,356 Speaker 2: love dogs, and so what are you taking. It's not 357 00:18:56,436 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 2: like only kids like dog movies. Adults like dog movies. 358 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:01,636 Speaker 2: So yeah, you can definitely make a rat Atar dog movie. 359 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 2: So but it's just listen. I make myself feel better 360 00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 2: by saying you can't. Both want to do things that 361 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:10,076 Speaker 2: nobody's ever seen before, and then before frustrated that nobody 362 00:19:10,156 --> 00:19:13,316 Speaker 2: understands why it's going to work or why you believe 363 00:19:13,316 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 2: in it. But this plagues me in my whole career. 364 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:18,996 Speaker 2: I've never done anything anybody thought I was going to succeed. 365 00:19:19,116 --> 00:19:21,396 Speaker 2: Everybody thinks everything I do is like a wonder woman 366 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:23,636 Speaker 2: that's going to be terrible. Oh monster, that's going to 367 00:19:23,676 --> 00:19:25,236 Speaker 2: be terrible. Oh the killing is going to be a 368 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:26,276 Speaker 2: bad TV whatever. 369 00:19:27,076 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 1: When you finished the screenplay and you said, what did 370 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:33,836 Speaker 1: you say to yourself? Did you think this is a 371 00:19:33,836 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 1: slam dunk? Someone's going to help me make this? 372 00:19:37,836 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 2: No, but I knew how how very happy I was 373 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:44,916 Speaker 2: with it, and the people who read it had the 374 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 2: same reaction. You know, like people would say you know 375 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 2: that it was. I've had still people some people write 376 00:19:50,156 --> 00:19:52,196 Speaker 2: me and say it's still one of their favorite screenplays 377 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:55,996 Speaker 2: they've ever read. But but I knew it was going 378 00:19:56,076 --> 00:19:59,516 Speaker 2: to be a little bit hard, but I didn't And 379 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 2: I still don't understand why no one would roll the 380 00:20:02,876 --> 00:20:06,796 Speaker 2: dice on my very low budget second film, other than 381 00:20:06,796 --> 00:20:09,836 Speaker 2: to speculate that the sexism that I was very very 382 00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:12,836 Speaker 2: disinterested in throughout my career, but see much more clearly 383 00:20:12,916 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 2: now wad into the fact that you know, if a 384 00:20:16,836 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 2: guy makes an Oscar winning first film, then then you 385 00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:24,956 Speaker 2: roll the dice on their second thing. Whereas throughout my 386 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 2: career people have not been interested in or not had 387 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:31,156 Speaker 2: confidence in what I want to do. They've embraced me 388 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 2: and wanted to hire me for what they want to do. 389 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:37,076 Speaker 2: But still to this day, like when I have my 390 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:39,396 Speaker 2: what the stories I want to tell are, people are like, ah, 391 00:20:39,476 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 2: we've never seen that before, And I'm like, yeah, but 392 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:44,276 Speaker 2: you've never seen monster before either, Like you want to 393 00:20:44,316 --> 00:20:47,356 Speaker 2: just give it a shot. So so, looking back, it 394 00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:49,476 Speaker 2: took me all the way until now to be like, wait, 395 00:20:49,556 --> 00:20:51,996 Speaker 2: how did nobody just say, yeah, we'll give her five 396 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 2: million dollars to make her second movie. Different thoughts of. 397 00:20:54,756 --> 00:20:57,076 Speaker 1: This is super interesting and something I've been thinking about 398 00:20:57,076 --> 00:21:01,876 Speaker 1: a lot recently, which is that you're talking about sexism here. 399 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:07,316 Speaker 1: Sexism discrimination of any kind takes all kinds of different forms. Yeah, 400 00:21:07,356 --> 00:21:09,716 Speaker 1: And in this case, what we're talking thing about is 401 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:13,956 Speaker 1: someone is perfectly capable of saying, you made a brilliant movie. 402 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:18,716 Speaker 1: So the sexism doesn't prevent them from seeing the genius 403 00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:21,436 Speaker 1: of Monster. It prevents them from seeing that you could 404 00:21:21,476 --> 00:21:23,716 Speaker 1: do it again. In other words, the way they make 405 00:21:23,756 --> 00:21:25,636 Speaker 1: sense a monster is, oh, it's a one off. 406 00:21:26,356 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I also think it's that, of course, 407 00:21:30,116 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 2: it's not anybody's fault that the industry is based on 408 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:37,596 Speaker 2: looking backwards. So if it's something this is what I 409 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:39,996 Speaker 2: think is the real gender issue, and by the way, 410 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:44,036 Speaker 2: not just gender issue. Diverse stories issue in Hollywood is 411 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 2: you can want to invite as many people behind camera 412 00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 2: and into these positions as possible, but as long as 413 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:54,276 Speaker 2: you're still basing what can and cannot succeed on the past, 414 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:58,316 Speaker 2: you're basing it on a blueprint of a very specific voice. 415 00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:02,276 Speaker 2: And so I think that when I want to tell 416 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:04,636 Speaker 2: a different maybe a guy wouldn't think of that story 417 00:22:04,636 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: that I'm coming up with and maybe the way the 418 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:11,436 Speaker 2: emotions work are slightly different. Whatever, it is the combination 419 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:13,596 Speaker 2: of the fact that they haven't seen it before, and 420 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 2: also they don't like to think of women as auteurs 421 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:19,036 Speaker 2: or artists or take it as serious, Like there's a 422 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 2: there's a romantic desire to look at guys who do 423 00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:25,396 Speaker 2: like crazy art things and be like, oh my god, 424 00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:28,556 Speaker 2: they're a genius. Much less so with a woman, you know. 425 00:22:28,676 --> 00:22:30,956 Speaker 2: And so I think it's like the combination of those 426 00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:33,436 Speaker 2: things that make it tough. 427 00:22:34,876 --> 00:22:37,996 Speaker 1: So what exactly you said a little bit? But I'm curious, 428 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 1: So you take this script out? You want five million dollars, which, 429 00:22:42,516 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: just for those of you listening in Hollywood terms, not 430 00:22:45,436 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 1: a lot of money at all. 431 00:22:47,396 --> 00:22:50,156 Speaker 2: No, I mean, everybody thought that Monster costs more than that, 432 00:22:50,276 --> 00:22:52,396 Speaker 2: like they they there was a there was a big 433 00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:54,356 Speaker 2: lawsuit about it, and one of the sides tried to 434 00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:56,236 Speaker 2: say that it costs eleven million dollars, So that's what 435 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:58,836 Speaker 2: they thought Monster costs. It actually costs one point five 436 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 2: But it's very that was as little money as a 437 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 2: movie can be. Is five million? Really? 438 00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:06,036 Speaker 1: And what do you so? What what exactly are you hearing? 439 00:23:06,036 --> 00:23:09,636 Speaker 1: You're hearing a people want they want. First of all, 440 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 1: they get that they want a different perspective on the prisoner. 441 00:23:13,316 --> 00:23:16,236 Speaker 1: You've said that they feel more comfortable where they have 442 00:23:16,276 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: a very clear redemptive narrative when it comes to the 443 00:23:20,556 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 1: to the past. But what else, keep going? What else? 444 00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:25,596 Speaker 1: What else is in their area? 445 00:23:25,676 --> 00:23:28,356 Speaker 2: You know, I can only say that it was always 446 00:23:28,436 --> 00:23:31,676 Speaker 2: like no, It's like even these people saying like it's great, 447 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 2: we love the script, but it's not for us. There's 448 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,476 Speaker 2: always a million different reasons. It's only as the years 449 00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:39,076 Speaker 2: have gone by, and my husband's always pointing it out too, 450 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 2: that we've had this so many things that I led 451 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:44,996 Speaker 2: that or my idea like I wanted to do an 452 00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:49,556 Speaker 2: MMA show called the Fight about People in the MMA world. No, no, 453 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:52,036 Speaker 2: we don't. It doesn't make sense. Then sure enough that 454 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 2: goes on and becomes huge. It's like I when I 455 00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,076 Speaker 2: go and pitch things that I want to do and 456 00:23:58,236 --> 00:24:02,796 Speaker 2: what my ideas are, so often it's been met with 457 00:24:02,796 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 2: with like no, but we'd love you to do this 458 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 2: hooker with a heart of gold script or this you 459 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 2: know other thing. And I'm so grateful to have been 460 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:13,556 Speaker 2: embraced to do other people's things, but there is something 461 00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:17,236 Speaker 2: about it, and so yeah, it's always something different. I 462 00:24:17,276 --> 00:24:19,916 Speaker 2: don't think that they're ever even aware of it, but 463 00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 2: I do think that there's something about confidence and excitement 464 00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:34,596 Speaker 2: in in in women's artistry that is slightly less, you know, 465 00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:35,996 Speaker 2: they're they're less confident in. 466 00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:39,676 Speaker 1: That's my well, that's my that's my point. There's a 467 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:45,516 Speaker 1: a much more constricted view of of your talent. It's 468 00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:49,956 Speaker 1: like you're this desire to see to if you can 469 00:24:49,996 --> 00:24:53,676 Speaker 1: explain away a big success by saying it was like 470 00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: a like a a, it was an anomaly. 471 00:24:56,916 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 2: And by the way, it's always miss I feel it's 472 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:02,356 Speaker 2: always misunderstood as well. I remember people saying to me 473 00:25:03,156 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 2: when I made Monster. The one studio executive actually said 474 00:25:06,836 --> 00:25:09,796 Speaker 2: to me she came into the editing and she actually 475 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 2: watched a part of it, and she goes, sweetheart, no 476 00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:17,276 Speaker 2: one wants to see a film like this. Oh, no, 477 00:25:17,276 --> 00:25:20,116 Speaker 2: one wants to see a movie like this. And she 478 00:25:20,196 --> 00:25:22,876 Speaker 2: wrote me an email saying like, oh, you're a great kid. 479 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:25,516 Speaker 2: I know you're gonna make it one day. I'm just 480 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:26,636 Speaker 2: really too bad. 481 00:25:26,476 --> 00:25:26,676 Speaker 1: You know. 482 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:28,436 Speaker 2: And this is before, of course the movie comes out 483 00:25:28,476 --> 00:25:31,356 Speaker 2: and ends up, you know, succeeding and making eighty something 484 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 2: million dollars by the way, and then I would hear 485 00:25:35,516 --> 00:25:37,876 Speaker 2: everybody saying like, oh, do you have any more female 486 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:41,316 Speaker 2: serial killer things? And you're like, that's the take home lesson. 487 00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 2: The take home lesson is that they want female serial killers. 488 00:25:44,396 --> 00:25:46,476 Speaker 2: And the same thing I felt with Wonder Woman. I 489 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:50,476 Speaker 2: felt like Wonder Woman was there was just so much 490 00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:53,836 Speaker 2: emphasis on gender where it was like, Oh, everybody wants 491 00:25:53,836 --> 00:25:56,276 Speaker 2: to see a woman directing a woman's story. I'm like, 492 00:25:56,476 --> 00:25:58,196 Speaker 2: is that it It's not because of the movie. It's 493 00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 2: not the hero's journey, it's not you know. It's like 494 00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:04,276 Speaker 2: and then there are a hundred women get women action 495 00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 2: things made on the It's like it's always it's the 496 00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:11,996 Speaker 2: wrong lesson. But but I think in the there's so 497 00:26:12,076 --> 00:26:15,076 Speaker 2: much focus on the woman part of it versus being like, Oh, 498 00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:18,116 Speaker 2: it's a good film and it's an unorthodox film, but 499 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:20,116 Speaker 2: they pulled it off. Instead, it's just like, oh, female 500 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 2: serial killers, that's it, That's what everybody wanted. 501 00:26:23,596 --> 00:26:27,316 Speaker 1: At what point do you think it would change, Like, 502 00:26:27,596 --> 00:26:30,116 Speaker 1: give me a hypothetical, what would have to happen in 503 00:26:30,116 --> 00:26:32,476 Speaker 1: your career for people to say you want to do it. 504 00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 1: Given your track record, let's go for it. 505 00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:39,756 Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, I don't know too many of the 506 00:26:39,796 --> 00:26:44,076 Speaker 2: women I know who have had major successes are also 507 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 2: we all behind closed doors whisper about how it sort 508 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 2: of doesn't. I think the world is really really long 509 00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 2: way away from that. It's not going to happen in 510 00:26:52,036 --> 00:26:54,476 Speaker 2: my lifetime. I think it's you know, I may find 511 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:56,516 Speaker 2: my own financing and have my own people and get 512 00:26:56,556 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 2: my own movies made. But I think that the world 513 00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:07,356 Speaker 2: is still genuinely run way behind closed doors by the 514 00:27:07,396 --> 00:27:11,196 Speaker 2: same people who have a desire for the interests that 515 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 2: they have, and no matter who they're putting on the 516 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,916 Speaker 2: lower levels, the mandate is still bumping up to that level. 517 00:27:17,956 --> 00:27:21,396 Speaker 2: And the truth is like, we're real far from really 518 00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:27,036 Speaker 2: diverse voices being understood and embraced. And it's not about 519 00:27:27,036 --> 00:27:29,196 Speaker 2: money either. So that's the unfortunate thing. 520 00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:53,356 Speaker 1: I'll be right back with more from Patty Jenkins. While 521 00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:56,116 Speaker 1: Patty was telling me about her dog prison fairy tale, 522 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:59,036 Speaker 1: I kept thinking about what the story shares with Monster, 523 00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 1: how upbringing and events can conspire to wound people or 524 00:28:03,716 --> 00:28:07,876 Speaker 1: dogs and shape what we expect from them. Monster and 525 00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 1: I am Superman both stories that ask us to look 526 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:15,236 Speaker 1: for nuance in some very dark places. Jenkins, I was thinking, 527 00:28:15,436 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 1: seems compelled by these kinds of dark places, So I 528 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:23,476 Speaker 1: asked her about it. Where where does this come from? 529 00:28:23,516 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 2: In you? So it's funny because I think we both 530 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:33,396 Speaker 2: have very backgrounds of a lot of exposure and travel, 531 00:28:33,716 --> 00:28:35,556 Speaker 2: and I think that that's I. You know, when I 532 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:38,716 Speaker 2: was little, we moved to Vietna, to Thailand and during 533 00:28:38,716 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 2: the Vietnam War, and then we moved. 534 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:42,196 Speaker 1: To You're an Air Force brat. 535 00:28:42,196 --> 00:28:45,476 Speaker 2: Are Air Force brat? Yeah, And I think I grew 536 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:49,356 Speaker 2: up consciously or unconsciously in the shadow of the Vietnam 537 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:54,076 Speaker 2: War in Thailand, you know, with my father's people dying 538 00:28:54,356 --> 00:28:56,556 Speaker 2: right and left, and the plant, you know, everything that's 539 00:28:56,596 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 2: really going on. So I think I was I was 540 00:29:00,156 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 2: born into the around the darkness in a familiar way. 541 00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 2: And then my own father passed away in a plane crash, 542 00:29:09,676 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 2: and you know, all these things, and I lived all 543 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:16,276 Speaker 2: over the place. So then I've always never quite been 544 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 2: one type of person. I'm not like from somewhere and 545 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,716 Speaker 2: like of a type, and so I've always been curious 546 00:29:22,716 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 2: in all types of people and what's going on with you, 547 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:29,436 Speaker 2: and I'm not daunted by the darkness, and as a result, 548 00:29:29,596 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 2: I ended up making friends with all kinds of people 549 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:35,556 Speaker 2: my whole life. Like I've been friends with definitely people 550 00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 2: who have done some terrible things and ended up in prison. 551 00:29:37,996 --> 00:29:40,676 Speaker 2: And as much as I've been friends with, you know, 552 00:29:41,196 --> 00:29:44,756 Speaker 2: upper class socialites or whatever, I've known all kinds of people. 553 00:29:44,756 --> 00:29:49,516 Speaker 2: But I think that the people who end up living 554 00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:51,796 Speaker 2: some of the most dangerous lives have I have a 555 00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:56,716 Speaker 2: real soft spot for because I've watched them turn into 556 00:29:56,796 --> 00:30:01,276 Speaker 2: those people and seen how how misunderstood they are and 557 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:06,516 Speaker 2: how easy it would be to happen to anybody should 558 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: they were. They the ones that went through that journey. 559 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,076 Speaker 2: So it's just it's not my only as you can see, 560 00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:15,036 Speaker 2: like wonder Woman is also my interest, you know, like 561 00:30:15,076 --> 00:30:17,876 Speaker 2: I have Arrested development is also my interest. I have 562 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:20,596 Speaker 2: lots and lots of interests. I think the reason I 563 00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:24,996 Speaker 2: like such diverse work myself is because because of what 564 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:27,116 Speaker 2: I just said, I'm not one type of person. I've 565 00:30:27,116 --> 00:30:29,996 Speaker 2: had to learn how to live in different circumstances at 566 00:30:29,996 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 2: different times. But this issue, these issues definitely are near 567 00:30:34,996 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 2: and dear to my heart. And also I think the 568 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:42,716 Speaker 2: most misunderstood because people have so little access to understanding 569 00:30:42,756 --> 00:30:43,436 Speaker 2: these stories. 570 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:45,556 Speaker 1: How old were you when your dad died? 571 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:46,516 Speaker 2: Seven? 572 00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:52,316 Speaker 1: Oh? Wow? I always think about you know. In one 573 00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:55,436 Speaker 1: of my books, I had a whole section on what 574 00:30:55,676 --> 00:30:59,476 Speaker 1: the I think does all this work on what happens 575 00:30:59,476 --> 00:31:02,956 Speaker 1: to people when they lose a parent at a young age. 576 00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:07,316 Speaker 1: And it's this incredible study that was done in England 577 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:13,196 Speaker 1: of extraordinarily high percentage of high achieving people lost a 578 00:31:13,356 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 1: parent in youth. And wow. The argument is that it 579 00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:22,156 Speaker 1: has one of two effects. You know, it's like, you know, 580 00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 1: it's a Nietzschean thing. It either crushes you or it 581 00:31:25,276 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 1: makes you stronger. You've gone through just about the most 582 00:31:30,636 --> 00:31:33,196 Speaker 1: horrendous thing that can happen to a child, and if 583 00:31:33,196 --> 00:31:35,996 Speaker 1: you can emerge from the other side of that, you're 584 00:31:36,076 --> 00:31:40,836 Speaker 1: kind of toughened in some way. I'm just I'm just 585 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:46,596 Speaker 1: using by how drawn you are to investigating this kind 586 00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:52,276 Speaker 1: of darkness and finding some some value in it. Mm hmm. 587 00:31:53,396 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: I think that that's or some understanding. 588 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:58,516 Speaker 2: Well said, that's well said understanding. I think it was. 589 00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:02,116 Speaker 2: It's interesting to look back on this and how first 590 00:32:02,156 --> 00:32:04,836 Speaker 2: of all, it was the definitive event in my life 591 00:32:05,036 --> 00:32:07,876 Speaker 2: was my father dying. It was had a huge, huge 592 00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 2: on everything after, particularly in my youth. I think it 593 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,356 Speaker 2: was funny and watching Anatomy of a Fall this last year, 594 00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:19,636 Speaker 2: what I thought was so interesting that and illuminating to 595 00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:22,476 Speaker 2: me was how condescending everyone is to the child about 596 00:32:22,476 --> 00:32:27,316 Speaker 2: their understanding of what's going on. And that really rang 597 00:32:27,476 --> 00:32:30,996 Speaker 2: true to me, where I think that a lot of people, 598 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:34,556 Speaker 2: even at our age, don't necessarily know how bad bad 599 00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:36,996 Speaker 2: can be, Like they just don't know they haven't been 600 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:39,796 Speaker 2: close to it, to the worst possible thing that could 601 00:32:39,836 --> 00:32:44,196 Speaker 2: ever happen to you happening. And when it happens to 602 00:32:44,236 --> 00:32:46,636 Speaker 2: you as a child, you're obsessed with your parents at 603 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:48,916 Speaker 2: seven years old, you are in love with them. And 604 00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:51,556 Speaker 2: my father was like such a heroic figure, like taking 605 00:32:51,556 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 2: off on his motorcycle every day and then flying off 606 00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 2: in his F four. You know, it's like he was 607 00:32:55,396 --> 00:32:59,236 Speaker 2: like a superhero in my life. So to have that 608 00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:02,556 Speaker 2: happen and then tell me you'll never see him again, 609 00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 2: like it was such exquisite revealing of how bad the 610 00:33:08,756 --> 00:33:12,636 Speaker 2: world can be. And now when I look back, I'm like, oh, yeah, 611 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:14,836 Speaker 2: people are saying to you, like, oh, every cloud has 612 00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:16,836 Speaker 2: a silver lining and all these things, and you're like, 613 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:19,716 Speaker 2: I want to die, Like you're done, it's your suicidal, really, 614 00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:22,956 Speaker 2: your your interest in this place is over. And I 615 00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:26,156 Speaker 2: only now realize that looking back, I'm like, oh, all 616 00:33:26,196 --> 00:33:28,956 Speaker 2: of these words, and how I was probably being viewed 617 00:33:28,956 --> 00:33:32,076 Speaker 2: as a seven year old is she'll forget him, she'll 618 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:35,876 Speaker 2: get over him, she'll and you're like, dude, I can't. 619 00:33:35,916 --> 00:33:38,956 Speaker 2: I don't want to be here where that can happen 620 00:33:38,956 --> 00:33:41,516 Speaker 2: at any moment. I don't trust any of this now, 621 00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:46,676 Speaker 2: And so I think that it's it's a very interesting 622 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:49,396 Speaker 2: thing that you do have to kind of toughen yourself 623 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:53,356 Speaker 2: and learn how to exist in that world where you 624 00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:55,636 Speaker 2: know that that can. And I still really struggle with it. 625 00:33:55,676 --> 00:33:57,956 Speaker 2: I really struggle with it as it relates to my child, 626 00:33:58,276 --> 00:34:02,476 Speaker 2: where I'm like it with the knowing how bad bad 627 00:34:02,516 --> 00:34:05,996 Speaker 2: can be, like knowing that we all feel like it's 628 00:34:05,996 --> 00:34:07,556 Speaker 2: not going to be us and it can't really happen, 629 00:34:07,596 --> 00:34:09,516 Speaker 2: but it really could, you know, and it happen at 630 00:34:09,516 --> 00:34:11,196 Speaker 2: any moment, and there's nothing you can do about it, 631 00:34:11,236 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 2: you know. Interestingly, I don't think I would be the 632 00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:17,516 Speaker 2: director I am if my father hadn't died and then 633 00:34:17,556 --> 00:34:19,956 Speaker 2: I think monster I made literally directly about the death 634 00:34:19,956 --> 00:34:21,916 Speaker 2: of my father. It was about like, oh, okay, cool, 635 00:34:22,036 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 2: everything works out, everything happens, Like the voiceover in that 636 00:34:24,876 --> 00:34:27,476 Speaker 2: movie is saying, everything, you know, it's all these myths 637 00:34:27,756 --> 00:34:30,196 Speaker 2: that she's heard throughout her youth. If you just you know, 638 00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:33,596 Speaker 2: if you just love and believe in yourself, anything can happen. Nope, 639 00:34:33,636 --> 00:34:36,436 Speaker 2: not for Eileen Warnis, you know. So that it was 640 00:34:36,476 --> 00:34:41,956 Speaker 2: a direct a chance for me to express how dark 641 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:44,996 Speaker 2: the world can be that people might not realize. And 642 00:34:45,076 --> 00:34:48,236 Speaker 2: I think the driven part, what's interesting, don't I'd have 643 00:34:48,276 --> 00:34:49,836 Speaker 2: to think about what I think it is that makes 644 00:34:49,836 --> 00:34:53,236 Speaker 2: you driven. For me, I was. I was passionate to 645 00:34:53,316 --> 00:34:55,956 Speaker 2: take control of the narrative. And my original reason for 646 00:34:55,996 --> 00:34:57,836 Speaker 2: wanting to be a filmmaker was that I thought that 647 00:34:57,836 --> 00:35:00,596 Speaker 2: the stories were always going to be terrible in real life. 648 00:35:00,676 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 2: So I was like, so, I want to tell my story. 649 00:35:02,556 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 2: I want to be the one who controls the story, 650 00:35:04,956 --> 00:35:08,476 Speaker 2: so at least I can live a good outcome there, 651 00:35:08,756 --> 00:35:11,916 Speaker 2: you know. And I turned out to be pleasantly wrong that, 652 00:35:12,076 --> 00:35:14,476 Speaker 2: you know. I've lived a wonderful knock on wood life 653 00:35:14,596 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 2: in so many ways. But yeah, I think it was 654 00:35:17,836 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 2: like it made me very, very driven. 655 00:35:21,556 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 1: So now you're now you want to take uh this 656 00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:31,556 Speaker 1: story back out and try and maybe. 657 00:35:30,756 --> 00:35:32,236 Speaker 2: I haven't decided. I haven't decided. 658 00:35:32,396 --> 00:35:37,036 Speaker 1: Tell me how you would knowing what you know. By 659 00:35:37,076 --> 00:35:43,316 Speaker 1: the way, what you just said is incredibly Uh, it's 660 00:35:43,316 --> 00:35:46,636 Speaker 1: sort of it's it. It's it's moved. I mean, it's 661 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:52,756 Speaker 1: really moved. I mean it's incredibly kind of moving. And 662 00:35:52,756 --> 00:35:58,276 Speaker 1: and honest, you why you do what you do. What's 663 00:35:58,596 --> 00:36:01,996 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that what is for most of us. 664 00:36:02,916 --> 00:36:06,476 Speaker 1: You know, I've had a when I was growing up 665 00:36:06,516 --> 00:36:09,596 Speaker 1: as a kid, I you know, thought all the time 666 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,316 Speaker 1: about what it would mean if I lost one of 667 00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:16,276 Speaker 1: my parents. But it was an abstract thought. For you, 668 00:36:16,356 --> 00:36:21,716 Speaker 1: it's real. That's the difference. So I can't As a kid, 669 00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:24,796 Speaker 1: when I thought about that, it wasn't something I could 670 00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:26,956 Speaker 1: put into words. It wasn't something I could make real 671 00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:29,276 Speaker 1: to anyone else. It was just a kind of It's 672 00:36:29,276 --> 00:36:32,276 Speaker 1: the kind of weird kind of fantasy you have, dark 673 00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:33,876 Speaker 1: fantasy you have at three in the morning, you're like, 674 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 1: oh my god, what would happen if but you actually, 675 00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:40,276 Speaker 1: by virtue of gone going through it, you knew what it. 676 00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:45,796 Speaker 2: Felt like mm hmm, but yeah, because after my father died, 677 00:36:45,836 --> 00:36:49,436 Speaker 2: then my sister had a like the most beautiful friend, 678 00:36:49,796 --> 00:36:52,796 Speaker 2: runaway boy who came and lived with us, and I 679 00:36:52,876 --> 00:36:54,076 Speaker 2: was like so in love with him. He was like 680 00:36:54,076 --> 00:36:56,156 Speaker 2: three years older than us, Paul Penzini. He was like 681 00:36:56,236 --> 00:37:00,076 Speaker 2: beautiful and you know, and he'd run away and was 682 00:37:00,116 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 2: living in our house. And then he had to go 683 00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:03,636 Speaker 2: visit a cousin and he got shot in the head 684 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:06,756 Speaker 2: and killed. And so I was between those two things. 685 00:37:06,836 --> 00:37:11,316 Speaker 2: I was like, this place sucks, I you know. Was 686 00:37:11,836 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 2: it made me very romantic though, like you interestingly that 687 00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:19,596 Speaker 2: kind of tragedy I think, particularly for the opposite sex 688 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:22,796 Speaker 2: parent and then the opposite sex older brother figure. It 689 00:37:22,916 --> 00:37:26,676 Speaker 2: made me so romantic about everything, but about like love 690 00:37:26,756 --> 00:37:33,916 Speaker 2: and longing and loss. I think it's like I take 691 00:37:33,996 --> 00:37:37,436 Speaker 2: for granted my familiarity with the darkness, but of course 692 00:37:37,476 --> 00:37:39,636 Speaker 2: the romance of the stories I want to tell are 693 00:37:39,756 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 2: very much born from that, And so I think I 694 00:37:45,356 --> 00:37:49,156 Speaker 2: sort of thought I was this much darker, rebellious, the 695 00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:52,476 Speaker 2: type of person that makes monster in my youth, and 696 00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:55,116 Speaker 2: now I realize I'm not that person. I'm also the 697 00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,716 Speaker 2: person that makes wonder woman I'm all kinds of you know, 698 00:37:57,796 --> 00:38:00,556 Speaker 2: like I've grown up. I'm not just that person. But 699 00:38:00,836 --> 00:38:02,716 Speaker 2: so I think that makes me look back and say, yeah, 700 00:38:02,716 --> 00:38:05,316 Speaker 2: why do I have that much darkness? Oh that's interesting, 701 00:38:05,436 --> 00:38:07,796 Speaker 2: let's look back. You you really don't you just you 702 00:38:07,916 --> 00:38:10,516 Speaker 2: just go forward for a long long time before you say, like, 703 00:38:10,836 --> 00:38:12,876 Speaker 2: how do I explain to people that I made Monster 704 00:38:12,956 --> 00:38:13,996 Speaker 2: and I made wonder Woman? 705 00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:19,956 Speaker 1: You know? So, if you were to take this movie 706 00:38:19,996 --> 00:38:25,516 Speaker 1: back out, knowing what you know both about your the 707 00:38:25,556 --> 00:38:29,956 Speaker 1: first round of attempts with it and about yourself, how 708 00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:32,276 Speaker 1: would you pitch it differently? 709 00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 2: I don't think I would pitch it. First of all, 710 00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:37,676 Speaker 2: I don't think I would. I think I would try 711 00:38:37,676 --> 00:38:40,916 Speaker 2: to stack it up with my own financing and control 712 00:38:41,236 --> 00:38:44,276 Speaker 2: because I think I made I've made my peace with 713 00:38:44,356 --> 00:38:49,556 Speaker 2: the fact that it might not be the easiest thing 714 00:38:49,676 --> 00:38:53,116 Speaker 2: to trust, and so you kind of need to be 715 00:38:53,196 --> 00:38:55,596 Speaker 2: left alone to make it. I maybe would take it 716 00:38:55,596 --> 00:38:57,156 Speaker 2: to one or two places. But I don't think I 717 00:38:57,156 --> 00:38:59,316 Speaker 2: would go out, you know, with my hands out hoping 718 00:38:59,316 --> 00:39:03,436 Speaker 2: that Hollywood understands this film. Now I'm playing the game 719 00:39:03,556 --> 00:39:07,396 Speaker 2: in a more sophisticated way now, with age and with experience, 720 00:39:07,436 --> 00:39:08,956 Speaker 2: where you're sort of like, oh, I see what this 721 00:39:09,036 --> 00:39:11,196 Speaker 2: is and I see how it could go wrong, and 722 00:39:11,276 --> 00:39:14,916 Speaker 2: just to give this film a winning hand, I'd need 723 00:39:15,036 --> 00:39:17,836 Speaker 2: the space to actually make it what it could be, 724 00:39:17,956 --> 00:39:20,116 Speaker 2: not be fielding a bunch of notes from a bunch 725 00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:22,876 Speaker 2: of people who are afraid who needed to you know who, 726 00:39:24,036 --> 00:39:25,996 Speaker 2: that they've never seen a film like this before. So 727 00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:29,476 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's more just about how to set 728 00:39:29,476 --> 00:39:30,516 Speaker 2: yourself up to succeed. 729 00:39:31,276 --> 00:39:34,196 Speaker 1: I want to see this movie. Were you were you? 730 00:39:34,276 --> 00:39:35,156 Speaker 1: Maybe well were you? 731 00:39:35,276 --> 00:39:38,276 Speaker 2: Probly you'll If I don't make it, I'll come back 732 00:39:38,276 --> 00:39:39,476 Speaker 2: and tell you the rest of the story. 733 00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:50,436 Speaker 1: This has been fantastic. This episode was produced by Nina 734 00:39:50,476 --> 00:39:53,676 Speaker 1: Bird Lawrence with Tali Emlin and ben A Dapph Haffrey. 735 00:39:54,196 --> 00:39:58,076 Speaker 1: Editing by Sarah Nicks, original scoring by Luis Quira, Engineering 736 00:39:58,076 --> 00:40:02,876 Speaker 1: by Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm 737 00:40:02,916 --> 00:40:03,676 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell.