1 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar, 2 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: That's Karen Kilgarriff. 3 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 2: And we're going to do some podcasting at you. 4 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: I hope you're ready for podcasting in your rear. In 5 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: your rear, we're going to show you how it's done. 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 2: Get ready and write this down. 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 3: Get ready with me to podcasts? 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: A podcast, it's a get ready with me? And they 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: just put huge headphones on. 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's it and then just talk about themselves 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: for two hours. Do you know you have a new 12 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it, like a new nervous 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: habit or a new what's the word, not twitch? 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 3: Like? Just say what it is? You keep going like this, Oh. 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: No, keep you keep putting your hand to the back 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: of your face and grabbing your own no, in your 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: pointer finger and middle finger, just a little, even doing 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: it for a while. 19 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what it is. How many 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: did I do it like a bunch on the last record? 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: No, but I've noticed you doing it a few times 22 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: every time I see you. 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: I just wanted to impress you. 24 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: But what is it? I have no fucking It's like 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: I got I got your nose. But to yourself. 26 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: It's how I comfort myself. 27 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: Why are you taking your nose? Why are you taking 28 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 3: your nose? 29 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a crazy thing to hear about yourself, 30 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: probably right. Also, it's funny because being doing this podcast 31 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: on Video Nightmare, there was one video where they were 32 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 2: I can't remember what the the whole video is about 33 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: something else, but like they were using this thing that 34 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,279 Speaker 2: was an outtake basically where I did this super weird 35 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: like upper body stretch before we started. Oh no, And 36 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: it was like funny. But at the same time, when 37 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: I watched it, I was like, it really sucks to 38 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: have to edit yourself, to have to give notes on 39 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: that's mine. 40 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: It's a whole different thing. You shouldn't be watching you doing. Yeah, 41 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: you should get yourself banned. 42 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: We're getting there, But that's really I'll make up a 43 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: new one. No, I like it. 44 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: I just like it. I wonder if it's. 45 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: Like a thinking thing. 46 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 3: It's certainly like a give me a moment thing. Yeah, hmmm, 47 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: two seconds please? But how like squeezing your your own nose? 48 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 3: Should I not have told you that? I mean, I 49 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: just I could stop noticing it now. 50 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: I would like to stop doing it for sure. So 51 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: that's fine with me. This is the thing when we 52 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: filmed this. When we do our show, our podcast, we 53 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: also are doing video, but often I'm working right up 54 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: until I walk down to do it, so I have 55 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: a real fast makeup problem. I also have this foundation 56 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: is too light for me. Oh well, I'll use it anyway. Problem. 57 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: So I think I'm also thinking that, like almost I'm 58 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: giving myself last second contact or some kind. 59 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: Of right, are you remembering your face is like. 60 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: It goes to here steps here. I don't know. 61 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: Once I noticed it, I couldn't stop noticing. I'm like, 62 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 3: I should tell her. 63 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: But. 64 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: Please tell me? 65 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: But what for? 66 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: It's the same as you to what end? You do 67 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: that thing where you go to do I know because 68 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: my hair always sticks. 69 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: So I do this and you go me no, literally me. 70 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: Because it always sticks out? 71 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course always this goddamn job, everything about it. 72 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 3: No, this is the fucking best. 73 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: Gratitude. Gottitude, gottitude. 74 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming to our live shows. We're having 75 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: so much fun. 76 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: We are so happy to see you again. 77 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 3: We could rad merch too. 78 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: Oh the merch at the live shows is people are 79 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: talking about it. 80 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: I mean, it's gorgeous. 81 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: It's so cool. I know, it's Daphne Sabine. 82 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: She's an incredible artist and murderino and she's been designing 83 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: our tour posters and every city has its own version 84 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: of the tour poster based on things from that city 85 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: or state, so like flowers and animals and like, I mean, 86 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: it's just so thoughtful and beautiful. 87 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: It's so great. And also it's it's like not the 88 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: most typical, so it's like just because it's Pasadena doesn't 89 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: mean it's like the gold Doser wherever. But it's just 90 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: really smart and really cool, and I think people were 91 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: super excited in Denver to see, like how original it is. 92 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: So good, it's great. 93 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: Speaking of our tour, yeah, we still have some limited 94 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: tickets in certain cities, including some gold VIP packages which 95 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: come with an exclusive merch bundle and one of those 96 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: tour posters signed by us. 97 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: That's us. 98 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 3: That's us. 99 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: So grab your tickets now at my Favorite Murder dot 100 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: com slash live. 101 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: And we're posting all the tour fund from backstage picks 102 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: to audience shout outs, So please remember to follow my 103 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 2: Favorite Murder on Instagram and of course over on TikTok 104 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 2: so you don't miss any. 105 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: Of it, that's right, and hashtag your own photos with 106 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: MFM Live twenty twenty five. 107 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: Also, you can head over to the exactly Right YouTube 108 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: channel so you can watch full episodes and clips not 109 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: only from the show My Favorite Murder, but also from 110 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: Ghosted by rous hernandez I Said No Gifts, Buried Bones 111 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: and more. 112 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: So go to YouTube dot com slash exactly Right Media 113 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: and please subscribe. Please we appreciate it. 114 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: Also, just in time for spooky season. 115 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: Hardy spooky season? 116 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, shit, Sorry, what's your costume going to be 117 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: this year? 118 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: I bought a vintage shirt that is the color pattern 119 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: of candy corn, so I don't done and done. I 120 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: fucking found it and it's gorgeous. 121 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: I'm really jealous of that. 122 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 3: She'll wear it on the show and then we can switch. 123 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: Okay, I'll wear it the day that I have a 124 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: skeleton dress. Right, we'll do that. 125 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: Okay. 126 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: So just in time for spooky season, make your plants too. 127 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: We got new and restocked Halloween merch in the Exactly 128 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: Right store. 129 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of brand new Mothmen stuff, which we 130 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 1: of course love. From MFM Animated. There's a Mothman unisex 131 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: T shirt, the return of the Mothman's zip front hoodie, 132 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: the Mothman Cooozy business one, and then Skeleton Joggers and 133 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: the skeleton pin that moves. 134 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: The skeleton pin moves, and you have the joggers. 135 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course all of those designs are by 136 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: the great Nick Terry. I mean, we love this man. 137 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 2: You've seen the MFM animated's on YouTube. If you haven't, 138 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: please go watch them. They're pretty great, incredible. They're a 139 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: lot like this, but they move, they're articulated. I have 140 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 2: to admit something. Georgia proudly wears our merch everywhere she goes. 141 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: Not me, though, I'm a very Kurt Cobain yelling at 142 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: me all the time. You know, be cool. 143 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: It's not cool if you wear you're on merch. 144 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. But I was in Nicole's office one day 145 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: and she had these skeleton sweatpants sitting there and I 146 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: was like, I need those skeleton sweatpants, and she gave 147 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: them to me. I have worn them in public so 148 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 2: many times because they're so cozy that I don't care 149 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: that I look like a cornball. Yeah, no, whatever way 150 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: I'm judging myself. 151 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 3: I love it. It's good. 152 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: I think it's good to support your school and your 153 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: podcast also. 154 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: But just know that when Nicole picks the blanks for 155 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: our merch, she is going for the best of the best. 156 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: Go to exactly the right store dot com to grab 157 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: your stuff today today, all right, your solo, Yes, sit back, Yeah, 158 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: just realize, thank you God, damn it. 159 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a story about a person 160 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: who is extremely good at one specific thing, and because 161 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: of that, he became an unlikely partner to investigators in 162 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: not only this country, but beyond. His work not only 163 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: helps catch fugitives, but it also gives many John and 164 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: Jane does their name back. He isn't a cop or 165 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: a forensic scientist. He's a fine artist whose work predates 166 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: the modern use of genetic genealogy. We've mentioned him on 167 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: the show back in episode twenty nine, which was spelled 168 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: episode twenty an. Oh, this is the story of forensic 169 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: sculptor Frank Bender. 170 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Like I'm having flashbacks to my childhood 171 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: and watching unsolved mysteries, and I might recognize the bus 172 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: and the sculpture that was made of this missing person 173 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: or this skeleton that was and. 174 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: Maybe I could solve the case. Yes, is that what 175 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: we're talking about? 176 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: Yes, you are being called as a seven year old 177 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: to please help the authorities. 178 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: Incredible. Yeah, and then yeah these I love these? 179 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: Okay great. So the main sources used in this story 180 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: today are two thousand and four Esquire article by Brendan 181 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: Vaughan entitled Man of the Month Frank Bender, and a 182 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five New York Times article by Karen Demasters 183 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: entitled Solving Crimes. Sculptor recreates faces of tragedy. And the 184 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 2: rest of the sources are in our show notes. So 185 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: we'll start with that New York Times article. They describe 186 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: Frank Bender as quote an elfin man with a quote 187 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: bald head, fierce gaze, and Van Dyke, which is Van 188 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: Dyke's are for the children, the formal name of a 189 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: little mustache beard combo that you've seen on many many 190 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: vape salesmen. Sometimes they call it a goatee, incorrect. 191 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 3: Because it mustache. Is there too? 192 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So all that's to say that Frank Bender 193 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: doesn't look like someone you'd find hanging around with the cops, 194 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: more like one of those guys that would be posted 195 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: up along the sind with an easel, you know, wearing 196 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: a little black beret. And that's why it's so strange 197 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: that in the late seventies, when he's thirty five years old, 198 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 2: he has this life changing moment at the Philadelphia Morgue. 199 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: So he's from Philly, he's born into a working class family, 200 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 2: and he's been making art since he was very young. 201 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: But when he gets exposed to the art world, he's 202 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: kind of put off by it. So when he graduates 203 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: high school, he actually turns down a scholarship to go 204 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: to the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts and instead he 205 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 2: joins the Navy. Wow yeah. But then when he gets out, 206 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: he comes back home to Philadelphia and he actually becomes 207 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: a professional photographer, but he also draws and he sculpts, 208 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: and he's very devoted to the practice, so much so 209 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: that when he wants to work on his figure drawing 210 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: or brush up on his anatomy drawing skills, he goes 211 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: and visits the Morgue. 212 00:09:58,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: Wow yeah. 213 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: So that's where he is on this fateful day in 214 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: the late seventies when the medical examiner brings him in 215 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: and shows him the body that they have that he 216 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 2: can use to practice and draw on. This is a yeah, 217 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: very intense, very cow yeah. But I mean, if you 218 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: think about it, like, there are a few places you 219 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: can actually go to really see human bodies like that. 220 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: So the medical examiner brings him in and shows him 221 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: the body they have, which is badly decomposed. It's a 222 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: woman who'd been shot in the head. She's completely unrecognizable, 223 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: so she has not been identified, and that means the 224 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: investigators kind of have no way to find out who 225 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: her murder is because they have no idea who she 226 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: is nowhere to start, when Frank Bender sees her body, 227 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 2: he actually says out loud in the moment, quote, I 228 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: know what she looks like. So when Frank revisits this 229 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: moment in interviews years later, he makes it sound like 230 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 2: he was kind of like in a trance or like 231 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: he was overcome by a powerful revelation, and he says 232 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: that those words, I know what she looks like just 233 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: sort of slipped out of his mouth. 234 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah oooh. 235 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: So when the Emmy asks if he knows anything about forensics, 236 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: Frank responds, I don't even know what that word means. 237 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: But the Emmy is intrigued by the confidence that he 238 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: has shown about thinking he knows what she looks like. 239 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: So he tells Frank to go home and try to 240 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: create an image of what he thinks this Jane Doe 241 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: could have looked like in real life. So Frank actually 242 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: ends up going above and beyond. He ends up sculpting 243 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 2: an incredibly like life bust out of fiberglass, and then 244 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 2: he paints the bust by hand, adding eyes, lips, skin tone, 245 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 2: all the details he's seeing in his mind, and he says, quote, 246 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: I saw every feature of her face and how the 247 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 2: form of one part of her face flowed into all 248 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: the other forms. 249 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: And if you've been studying art your whole life, then 250 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: you paint people's faces, you know the structure so well. 251 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's also getting a sense of things. You know. 252 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: He will later go on to like take in because 253 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 2: he doesn't always have a body, so it's very kind 254 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: of intuitive with him, but he's like he locks in 255 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: and kind of like tries to interpret what he can 256 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: as an artist. It's great. So in this situation, it 257 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: only takes him eight hours to finish this bust, and 258 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: when he's done, he's looking at the face of a 259 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 2: woman who's around sixty years old with a prominent nose 260 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: and a cleft chin. It's so lifelike that authorities decide 261 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: to photograph this bust and feature it in local newspapers, 262 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: and incredibly, it leads to this Jane Doe's identification. Holy shit, 263 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 2: it turns out to be sixty two year old Phoenix 264 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: native Anna Duval, who's gone missing after traveling to Philly 265 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: to meet a friend about a real estate investment opportunity there. 266 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: What's super weird is I went to high school with 267 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 2: a girl named Anna Duval, and she and her daughter 268 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: listened to this podcast, so I bet it was super 269 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 2: creepy for them to hear that. Wow, Hi, guys, that's 270 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: so weird you're in this story with us. That friend, 271 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: quote unquote is a man named John Martini, and he'd 272 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 2: already scammed Anna out of about twenty five thousand dollars 273 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 2: and lured her to Philadelphia under the pretense of a 274 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: sham real estate deal, and when she gets to Philadelphia, 275 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: he shoots her. 276 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 3: Jesus. 277 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 2: Years later, he is charged with Anna's murder, but by 278 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 2: that time he's already incarcerated for committing two other unrelated homicides. 279 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 2: So he is wow, basically kind of a serial killer. 280 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: But longer term, more importantly, Frank Bender's sculpture gives Anna 281 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: Duval her name back. So this experience is incredibly meaningful 282 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: for Frank. As opposed to the superficiality and the elitism 283 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: of the art scene, this work makes him feel like 284 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: his art actually made a positive impact in someone's life. 285 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 2: And he'll later say, quote, when I stumbled upon this 286 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: forensic venture, I said, that's my turf, That's where I belong. 287 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: This isn't going to hang on gallery walls. I feel 288 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: right about this. This is where I'm going to put 289 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: my energy and I can give back to the people 290 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: instead of to art collectors. 291 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 3: Amazing, It's pretty cool. I love it. 292 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: Of course, when other investigators find out about the success 293 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: of this bust, they enlist Frank's help on their cases. 294 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: He continues creating busts for the John and Jane does 295 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: in the city and around the country, and he becomes 296 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: particularly skilled at creating lifelike sculptures despite having little to 297 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: work from. So in the best case scenario, Frank would 298 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: be working from a skull that he could actually handle directly. 299 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: As he makes these busts, so when that's the case, 300 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: he basically works the clay over the skull to create 301 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: a mold, and then he removes the skull and he 302 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: pours plaster into that clay, and then he lets that set, 303 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: and then he stands and shapes and paints the bust 304 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: while referring back to the skull for any hints of 305 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: the person's unique facial features. Wow, yeah, he'll later tell 306 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: people magazine quote, I just see the image in my head. 307 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: Then I let my fingers do the sculpting. But usually 308 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: Frank has nothing more than a picture of the unidentified 309 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: person's remains, or sometimes only a report from an anthropologist 310 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: suggesting what their sex, age and race could be. Sometimes 311 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: he has much much less, like a few strands of hair. 312 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 2: So what Frank does is equal parts creativity and science. 313 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: And he's constantly referencing medical information and anatomy text to 314 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: make sure that his busts are as realistic as possible. 315 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: But of course he's also using his technical art skills, 316 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: his intuition, and an unwavering dedication to reanimating the faces 317 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: of the unidentified and just love that idea, like he 318 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: found his lane, like in this weird way. 319 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: I hate the art worlds, but I still want to 320 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: do art, and here's. 321 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: A way that like and I see it, which is 322 00:15:59,440 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 2: a gift. 323 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 324 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: So this is how Frank eventually gets the nickname quote 325 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: the recomposer of the Decomposed. So he's clearly a gifted artist, 326 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: and the more busts he creates, the more apparent his 327 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: investigative and profiling skills become. He has an amazing talent 328 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: for picking up tiny bits of information about a person, 329 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: like a piece of evidence found near a crime scene, 330 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: or the attributes of their bones, and then using that 331 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: to inform the creations that he makes and to the 332 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: investigators that he works with, it feels almost supernatural. Reporter 333 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: Brendan Vaughan writes in his Esquire piece on Frank that quote. 334 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: When you ask people in law enforcement to explain how 335 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: Frank Bender does what he does, they speak of his 336 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: intense interest in human nature. They mention his compassion for 337 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: the victims. They point to his talent as a fine artist, 338 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: his uncanny ability to read bones for clues. But really 339 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: the essence of what they're saying is this, Frank Bender 340 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: has a sixth sense. Yeah, here's one example of that 341 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: sixth sense in practice. In nineteen eighty, Frank is asked 342 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 2: to create a bust for an unidentified victim in a 343 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 2: town called Slatington, Pennsylvania. So the remains were found by 344 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 2: a hunter and they're determined to have been deteriorating outside 345 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 2: for nineteen months, So Frank has very little to go 346 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: off of, but he begins by analyzing the victim's skull 347 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 2: and he builds a profile, and this analysis leads him 348 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: to think that this person had an overbite and wavy 349 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 2: brown hair, and then he focuses on a piece of 350 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: evidence that was found near the body, a single glasses lens. 351 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: Frank finds a pair of brown frames that fit this 352 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: specific lens to place on his bust. When it's completed, 353 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: and when an image of this bust is circulated in newspapers, 354 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 2: a man calls the police and identifies the woman as 355 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: his twenty three year old daughter, Linda Keys. Holy shit, 356 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: she's been missing for more than a year. Though Linda's 357 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: cause of death is never determin and she's no longer 358 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 2: a Jane Doe, and of course her family has a 359 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: little bit of relief. Just a few years later, in 360 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, a group of kids discover the body 361 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: of a young woman behind a Philadelphia high school. 362 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 3: God. 363 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: So soon Frank is working to identify her. And this 364 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 2: is another case where the body is very decomposed, so 365 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 2: he uses the evidence that's available to conjure up her face. 366 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: He'll later tell the Toronto Star that quote she was 367 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: wearing a ship and shore blouse, a nicely pleated blouse, 368 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: not a blouse someone her age would wear out in 369 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 2: that neighborhood. To me, it told me she was looking 370 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: for a way out. She was looking for a better life. 371 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: So I had her looking up for hope. 372 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 373 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: I mean he's interpreting anything he can, but also like 374 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 2: putting it together with kind of logical steps. 375 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: So it's not like fanciful. 376 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like how do people really work? 377 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 3: Totally. 378 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 2: So a year later, in nineteen eighty eight, a woman 379 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: sees this bust and recognizes it is her eighteen year 380 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: old niece, Rosella Atkinson, who'd been missing for more than 381 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: a year after last being seen at a local bar. 382 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: She left behind a devastated family and her beloved infant daughter. 383 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: Rosella's aunt will say that one of the most spot 384 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: on features of Frank's bust is how Rosella is holding 385 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: her head up in that hopeful way, which is exactly 386 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: how she held herself in real life. Wow, that's crazy, 387 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: I know, but in tracks it's just like it is 388 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: logic based. Several years after Rosella's ideed her killer, a 389 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: man named Brian Hall finally comes forward and confesses. He 390 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: claims that back in nineteen eighty seven, they'd left that 391 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 2: bar together hooked up, and then he realizes that he's 392 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 2: missing money. He accuses her of stealing it from him. 393 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: When she tells him, you're wrong, I did not steal it, 394 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 2: he goes into a fit of rage and strangles her 395 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: to death and then hides her body. So now because 396 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: of Frank's work, Rosella's murderer will face justice, and of 397 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: course the family is no longer wondering what happened to 398 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 2: their daughter and their mother. But Frank's most famous bust 399 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 2: is not a Jane or a John Doe case. Instead, 400 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: it's a very famous fugitive case that I covered on 401 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: episode twenty nine, So I'll just recap it really quick. 402 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: And also we've done a rewind recently about this, so 403 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: now we're doing kind of inception level podcasting, where we're 404 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 2: folding in a podcast upon a podcast. So in nineteen 405 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: eighty nine, Frank is asked to recreate a bust of 406 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 2: the famous family annihilator and fugitive John List. John List 407 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: had been on the run for eighteen years after murdering 408 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 2: his entire family in New Jersey. I think that might be, 409 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: in reflection now, my favorite murder. Yeah, because it's it 410 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 2: has everything everything. There's the ironic ending of the Tiffany 411 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 2: lamp or the Tiffany shade or whatever that was, the 412 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: skylight that costs that was worth so much money, that 413 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: would have gotten him out of debt, all the things. 414 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: And I'm just like going and living a normal life, 415 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: like you hadn't done anything when you were like just 416 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: an evil person. 417 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you killed three of your children and your mother 418 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 2: and your. 419 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 3: Wife and then getting fucking caught this. 420 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: Way, this way by this man. It's so good. Okay. 421 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: So he's been on the run for eighteen years after 422 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: murdering his entire family in New Jersey, and the only 423 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: thing Frank has to work on when the authorities come 424 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 2: to him is decades old photographs and some bits of 425 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: information about John's life and his personality that have been 426 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 2: collected over the years. 427 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: Because he cut himself out of all the photos at home, right, 428 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: that's right, smartly. 429 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, purposely. 430 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, he knew what he was, raced any trace of 431 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 3: what he would look like. 432 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: Right, So they probably had to go scrape up some pictures. 433 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: But they're all like almost twenty years old. 434 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 3: Wow. 435 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: So Frank gets to work, relying on his vivid imagination 436 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: to guesstimate how John List could have aged over the 437 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: last twenty years. He looks at the old photos and 438 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: adds heavy jowls, removes some hair, then dresses his bust 439 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 2: in a suit and tie because, as Frank puts it, 440 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: quote the guy wore a suit and tie when he 441 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 2: mowed the lawn. 442 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah. 443 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: Frank even throws on a pair of thick, black rimmed 444 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: glasses because quote, he would want to look more astute, 445 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 2: more in control than he really was. 446 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 3: Amazing. 447 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: Frank comes to this conclusion while consulting with his friend, 448 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 2: criminal psychologist doctor Richard D. Walter. The two spend several 449 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: days walking around Philadelphia talking about what John List might 450 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: be like today. 451 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 3: It's just profiling. Yeah, so interesting. 452 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, in May of nineteen eighty nine, Frank completes 453 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: this bust of John List and it's featured in an 454 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: episode of America's Most Wanted and his fate would have it. 455 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 2: A woman in Richmond, Virginia is watching that night and 456 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 2: she thinks that it looks a lot like her neighbor, 457 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: Robert Clark. Robert is an accountant who wears very thick 458 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: rimmed glasses, so she calls the police. A couple days later, 459 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: they visit the Clark home and when they fingerprint him, 460 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: Robert Clark is quickly exposed as wanted murderer John List. 461 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: He's arrested, he's given five life sentences, and that's largely 462 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: thanks to Frank Bender's uncanny bust. I mean so incredible, 463 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: down to the fucking glasses. 464 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: That he didn't even need that, like he put on 465 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: him for effect. Yeah, and it was real and true 466 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: because of it. 467 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 468 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: Because also it's kind of like if you pay attention 469 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: to people, you get to know people. There's like certain 470 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: amount of types of people in the world, and it's like, 471 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: this is the kind of guy who would want people 472 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: to think he's like intelligent and successful, big glasses. Yeah, Yeah, 473 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 2: it's so good. It turns out listed moved to Virginia 474 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: and remarried. And it also turns out List was watching 475 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 2: America's Most Wanted that same night. Remember that detail, right, and. 476 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: His wife was sitting next to him, right. 477 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: And he's just like watching Oh, johns away in prison 478 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight. But he's not the only 479 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: wanted man who Frank helped track down just a name 480 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: of few. His busts are also credited with helping investigators 481 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: track down New York mob boss Alphonse Persecco and the 482 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: leader of a violent outlaw motorcycle game, the Warlocks, named 483 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: Bobby nas Wow. So as passionate as Frank Bender is 484 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: about forensic sculpture, it's not his livelihood. Frank only makes 485 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: between like twelve hundred and seventeen hundred dollars a bust, 486 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: and he only makes two or three a year, And 487 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: the restraint here seems to be his choice. As you 488 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: might have guessed, Frank isn't exactly chasing wealth. That's not 489 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: his style. He basically pays his bills doing odd jobs 490 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: like working on a tugboat and the occasional commission here. 491 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 3: My god, what a life. 492 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: It's almost like he's one of those people. It's like 493 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: I want to be out and about among the people totally, 494 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: and that's why he can do that job so well. 495 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 3: I want to work on a tug boat. 496 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 2: Yeah you can. 497 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 3: You think there are cats? I've bet those cats on 498 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: a tugboat. 499 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: To keep the rats away? Or would the or would 500 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: the Oh no, they don't fish off a tugboat. Totally 501 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 2: different job. If you captain a tugboat, please write in 502 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: then tell us how many cats are on. 503 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: If you're a tugboat cat, please write in at my 504 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: favorite Murder at Gmail and tell us what it's like. 505 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 2: Yah ma'am Mayamah, Yeah, Ma'amamiah. In his mind, it's his 506 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: well intended investigative work that feels meaningful. So in nineteen 507 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: ninety he co establishes the v Doc Society, made up 508 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: of detectives and profilers, forensic experts, pathologists, and other professionals 509 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: who regularly meet with the hopes of cracking cold cases. 510 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 2: I didn't realize that, but he basically is one of 511 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: the founding members. 512 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 3: Amazing, so good. 513 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: We've also talked about this group on the show in 514 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: episode I think you talked about them. 515 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: Right, probably cold cases? Probably? 516 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, probably it was in episode three sixty two, a 517 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: generous number of apples, your favorite where Oh yes, you 518 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: talked about Sorry, it's right in the paragraphic I knew. 519 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: I love to read this and go over it and 520 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: then just be like casual making conversation. It was when 521 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: you covered Pennsylvania's boy in the box case. 522 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, that's right. 523 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: So for years there was a boy and the v 524 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: DOC Society finally gave him his name back just a 525 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 2: few years ago, in twenty twenty two. He was four 526 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: year old Joseph august Zarelli. And this information is a 527 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: huge break in the still unsolved case of his death. 528 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of those classic ones that the 529 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: older gets, the less likely it would seem that he 530 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: would ever be identified. And the fact that he was 531 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: is just incredible. V docs on it amazing. 532 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: So as accomplished as Frank Bender is as an artist 533 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 2: and an unlikely investigator, it's also worth noting that he 534 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: is a big character himself. His eccentricity is delightfully captured 535 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: in the Esquire article that we sourced earlier, the one 536 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: by Brendan Vaughan, and he writes, quote, Frank Bender is 537 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: a spooky dude, not only because he knows what your 538 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: skull looks like. It's spooky how his answering machine invites 539 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: you to leave a message for the recomposer of the decomposed, 540 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: And it's a little spooky how he returns your call 541 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 2: from his claw foot bathtub. It's spooky how he talks, 542 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: and it's even spooky how he listens. But the spookiest 543 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: thing about Frank Bender is also the thing that's made 544 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 2: him a legend in the field of law enforcement. Frank 545 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: Bender sees dead people. 546 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 3: That is so, I have chills. It's amazing, it's incredible. 547 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you're telling this. 548 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 549 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: Also, like what if this is untapped in other people 550 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: at like totally that we could be helping each other 551 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: with these cold cases and these horrible mysteries. 552 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: You would never know unless you're like walked into aim more. 553 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, new art right. 554 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 555 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 2: So Frank doesn't seem to mind that these things get 556 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: right ups or attention, And that's a good thing, because 557 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: he gets a lot of attention for it. He's been 558 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: covered by sixty minutes forensic files, forty eight hours written 559 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: up in GQ, in the New York Times, and there's 560 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: been an indie documentary made about him, called Recomposer of 561 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 2: the Decomposed. He's been featured on TV shows as far 562 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 2: away as Japan and Germany, presumably thanks to his willingness 563 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: to travel. He's no stranger to flying somewhere far away 564 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: and collaborating with foreign investigators. So the assignments, the media 565 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: coverage the successful identification seem to feed Frank's thirst for 566 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 2: more investigative work. He continues accepting commissions and gets very 567 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: attached to the cases that he works on, hoping that 568 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 2: he can push them toward a resolution. Ted Botha, who 569 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 2: wrote a book about Frank, even says quote, He's a 570 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 2: fighter for justice. He's almost like a little Captain America 571 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: or something. Wow, so sweet. In two thousand and nine, 572 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: Frank is diagnosed with cancer at the same time as 573 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: his wife Jan and she passes before him. Yeah, his 574 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: doctor will later tell People magazine quote, I'm completely baffled 575 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: as to how he has remained so functional through what 576 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: must be an unimaginable degree of pain. That is courage. 577 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: But Frank is quite matter of fact about his mesothelioma diagnosis. 578 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: Just a year after learning about it. In twenty ten, 579 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: he tells a reporter quote. I'm used to being surrounded 580 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 2: by death. I've done everything I ever wanted to do. 581 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: I drove a race car, I've skydived, I've helped identify 582 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 2: a lot of people, including fugitives on the most wanted this. 583 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet like being around death that much makes 584 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: you a little bit more aware of the important things 585 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 1: in life. 586 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 3: Yes, not waste time. 587 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, your perspective is you'd think our perspective would be 588 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: so much better. 589 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 3: Cars been around a lot of anxiety. Yeah, no, I 590 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 3: think so. I think I pay attention more. 591 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: I think, don't you like, oh, over these last ten years, Yeah, 592 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of lessons and a lot 593 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: of kind of awareness and. 594 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: A lot of being grateful because the fact that it's 595 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: not us. Yeah, the grace of God, Thank fucking God. 596 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: There's no reason, and it's that kind of thing of 597 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: like we shouldn't live in fear. Yeah, the idea of 598 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: living in fear robs you completely, and there's no reason 599 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: for it, and there's a lot of reason for it. 600 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: There's reason for it, but most people are good. So 601 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: by this point, Frank has been working with investigators for 602 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: around thirty years since that very first bust he created 603 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 2: to identify and a duval He's actually since that time, 604 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 2: it's estimated he's created about forty more. Wow, he's done 605 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: it forty times. So many he doesn't keep an official tally, 606 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: so that's why it's just an estimation. Over the years, 607 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: Frank has proven he's well worth the it's roughly seventeen 608 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: hundred dollars commission that he accepts for each sculpture he makes. 609 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 2: It's hard to get an exact measure of how many 610 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: cases he has helped solve, but ABC News has reported 611 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: that he has an eighty five percent success. 612 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: Right, Holy shit. I know he hate it, but I'd 613 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: love to see a museum exhibit of all the busts. 614 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: I know. 615 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: And the whole story kind of rolled out of like cause, 616 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: you know, when you do art, in whatever way you 617 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: do it, it is about inspiration. It's just that his 618 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: inspiration is very odd and specific and incredibly helpful and meaningful. 619 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: The Philadelphia Inquirer, meanwhile, once reported that Frank's busts have 620 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 2: led to breaks in almost every single one of the 621 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 2: cases he's worked. Wow, that's wild. The New York Times 622 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: is a bit more modest, but still impressive. Putting his 623 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 2: success rate at somewhere around forty percent on a cold case. 624 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: That's the thing, totally. Yeah. 625 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: In twenty eleven, Frank Bender succumbs to cancer at age seventy, 626 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: as The New York Times reported in his obituary quote. 627 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 2: Interviewers are often asked mister Bender whether his life among 628 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: the dead gave him nightmares. Yes, he replied, but not 629 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: in the way you think. For years, he explained, his 630 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 2: dreams had been peopled by the dead and sinister men. 631 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 2: The sinister men invariably attacked him, mister Bender said, and 632 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: whenever they did, the unnamed dead rose up in his defense. 633 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 634 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: And that's the story of the late and legendary forensic 635 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 2: sculptor Frank Bender. 636 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 3: In incredible job. But Frank Bender, so good. I'm so 637 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: glad you did that. 638 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: Isn't that a good one? Yeah, because you assume, like 639 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: anytime when we did that story about John List, or 640 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: anytime you think about it, you're. 641 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: Just like, oh, that's a thing that the FBI developed, 642 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: right and moving on right, Yeah, Yeah, it's an true artist. Yeah, 643 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: and like not pursuing that on purpose, and it's just 644 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: kind of happening to you. It's almost like, you know, fate. 645 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's completely fate. He gets a vision of what 646 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: this woman who's been shocked in that head looks like. 647 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: Oh my god, incredible job. Thank you, perfect start to 648 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: spooky season. Right, Jesus, we've done it. 649 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: We did it again. Look, we just keep doing it 650 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 3: and we won't stop until you take our microphones away. 651 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: Never got damn in closing. We just like to stay, 652 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: stay sexy and don't get murdered. 653 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 3: Good goodbye, Elvis, Do you want to cookie? 654 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 2: This has been an exactly Right production. 655 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 3: Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. 656 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle oce Vedo. 657 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci. 658 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 2: Our researchers are Maaron McGlashan, and Ali Elkin. 659 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: Email your homecouns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot com. 660 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: Follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder. 661 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 662 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 663 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: And now you can watch us on exactly Right's YouTube page. 664 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: While you're there, please like and subscribe. 665 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 3: Goodbybeye