WEBVTT - The Path to Presence and Mindful Living with Prince EA 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.400 So many of us don't live life. Life lives us, 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.239 and I think it's up to us to really live consciously. 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:07.200 This is why mindfulness is so important. 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.599 Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.000 have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:25.279 like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.880 think ring true, and yet for many of us, our 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:33.000 thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.240 self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.919 have instead of what we do. We think things that 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.120 hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:47.680 just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.000 and creative effort to make a life worth living. This 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.000 podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in 0:00:54.040 --> 0:01:11.280 the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.600 for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Richard Williams, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.480 better known by the stage name Prince Ea. He's an 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.280 American spoken word artist, poet, rapper, filmmaker, and speaker. After 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.800 graduating magna cum laude from the University of Missouri Saint 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.679 Louis with a full scholarship and degree in anthropology. He 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.920 started and popularized the Make Smart Cool movement to promote 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:38.760 values like intelligence, free thought, unity and creativity, and hip 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:42.680 hop music and culture. In twenty fourteen, Prince Ea shifted 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.600 his focus from music to creating motivational and inspirational spoken 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.400 word films and content, and his YouTube videos have received 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:54.639 over three billion views and he discovers a wide range 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:59.880 of topics such as environmentalism, race, work, life balance, and spirituality. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.200 Princeya's work is widely recognized, including Oprah's Super Soul one 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:06.960 hundred and Forbes thirty Under thirty. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:08.800 Hi, Prince Welcome to the show. 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.400 Eric. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:12.040 having me on. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.240 Yeah, I am really excited to talk with you. You 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:18.040 talk about a lot of the same things that we 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:20.799 talk about on this show in your videos and your courses, 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:22.200 and so I think we're going to have a lot 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.960 in common here. But before we get to all that, 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.120 we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. In 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.000 the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.400 and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.600 of us that are always at battle. One is a 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.160 good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:41.320 and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:45.040 like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:46.760 They think about it for a second and they look 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.920 up at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.160 And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.600 like to start off by asking you what that parable 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:56.960 means to you in your life and in the work 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:57.440 that you do. 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.760 Wow, thank you for sharing that funny. I wanted to 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.359 film a video on that a long time ago, and 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.000 I still might because it's such a powerful, potent story. 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.399 It's a parable, right, It's hundreds of years old, so 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.040 it's time tested. And what does it mean to me? 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.600 It means that we have a choice. I have a choice, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.680 and I think it comes down to the two wolves, 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.720 which for me, it's either fear or it's love. I 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.000 think these are the two forces that play in our 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.880 dimension in which we inhabit on this planet. And I 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.360 think at every moment, we have that choice to choose 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:40.160 either fear limitation anger this very negative vibration I would 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.520 call it, or we could choose love, which is more open, 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:46.080 which is more compassionate. And I think the more that 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.320 you feed one of them, the more that will grow, right, 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.040 And it was ticked out hand who say He says 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:55.440 nothing can grow without food, not the anger, not the hatred, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.880 and also not the joy and not the happiness. So 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.800 that's what it means to me. It's a very powerful, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.360 powerful metaphor for life. And it really comes down in 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.640 each moment, which are we feeding in each moment, each decision, 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.080 because that's what our lives are, right, It's an accumulation 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.440 of the small moments. There's a movie I love. It's 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:17.800 Vanilla Sky. I don't know if you remember that film 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:22.080 with Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz. It's a beautiful film, 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.599 one of my favorites. Haven't seen it in years, but 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.960 I always remember this quote in the movie. He says, oh, 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.599 the little things, there's nothing bigger. So it's the little choices. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.680 Are we gonna choose fear? Are we gonna choose love? Yeah? 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.800 And I think what's interesting about what you just said 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.359 about little choices is that it's the little choices, and 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:47.440 it seems like the choices are inconsequential. They're so little, right, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.040 and there's so many little moments of them, and they 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.719 feel like, well, there's not really a good or bad here. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.840 There's not a love or fear here. This is just 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.359 I'm making my coffee. I mean, I'm gonna do the 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.159 next thing. But it really is, as you're saying, the 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.960 more intentionality we can bring to our choices. I was 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.760 reading something I always forget where I get what I 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:10.600 get from my guests, But it was something you had 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.400 said about some scientists believe make thirty five thousand choices 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.080 a day, and you said, I don't believe that to 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:21.920 be true because so many of those choices are happening automatically. 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:22.400 Right. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.640 We're not conscious of the choice. We're not conscious of 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.800 which wolf might be getting fed. You know, it's just 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:33.080 the default, autopilot. And again, some of that's a human advantage. 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:33.280 Right. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.880 I can't make every choice. I can't be deliberately moving 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:37.800 my hand right now, right, it's just kind of it's 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.640 doing its thing. But the more of them that are deliberative, 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:42.600 you know. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.680 One hundred percent it's habits. You know, I think we 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.040 all know. James Clear Atomic habits, right, and one of 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.120 the most powerful books written in the last freaking decade. 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.440 It's all about cultivating those habits because you know, they 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.680 say the first part of our lives, we make our habits. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.680 In the last part, our habits make us. I think 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.719 that's so true, and it's so important for us to 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.280 get in front of these habits while we still got 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.520 a chance, because we really don't want to be a 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:13.760 victim of life. So many of us don't live life. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:15.840 Life lives us, and I think it's up to us 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.440 to really live consciously. This is why mindfulness is so important. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.719 To be mindful as you're pouring the coffee and you're 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.719 not just thinking about, Okay, what do I have to 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:26.800 do at work? I'll tell you a parable which you 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.960 may have already heard, but there was a story of 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.200 the Buddha. He met a very very impatient disciple. And 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.200 the disciple he said, Buddha, Buddha, can you enlighten me 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.880 right now? And the Buddha says, I can't enlighten you 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.440 right now. It takes time. You have to cultivate these practices. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.440 He says, please, please, this is just enlighten me, just 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.680 just you know, got I got a plane to catch. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.640 I gotta get out of here, please please. And the 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.559 Buddha he said, okay, here's what you do when you eat, 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:02.080 eat when you walk walk, and it really is just 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.919 that simple to do what you're doing when right, to 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.880 really be in it. Right, you're not thinking about what's 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.280 going to happen two years from now or two minutes. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:13.760 You're really in the moment. And this is what all 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.360 the sages, all the gurus talk about. Yeah, the power 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:17.760 of the now. Yep. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.960 It's funny. You and I were talking beforehand about my 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:25.480 newly discovered love of surfing, and that's really it, right, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.360 is that when I am surfing, there is nothing else, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.280 you know, That's it. It is that moment entirely, all 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.320 my attention, all my focus, it's just all right there. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.680 And that's probably the key to it, is it does 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:44.960 that better for me easier? Right, that that state is 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.320 easier for me to achieve on a surfboard for some 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.960 reason than it is other times. But it's always worth 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:52.320 striving for. Mmm. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.720 Yeah, I mean we're talking about flow, we're talking about 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.840 being in the zone, We're talking about being in the now. 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.040 I think it's the Japanese they called it motion, the 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.160 Taoist they call it the dow right. That eternal nowness 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.640 is what we're all looking for. And the funny thing 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.320 is you're never not in it. It's just the mind 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.400 that tries to go to the future or go back 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.960 to the past and rehash that and this. The breath 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.400 is a good doorway to the moment, to the now. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.280 You know, the breath is always there, and if we 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.760 can just come back to the breath, that will bring 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.000 us to that place of beauty, you know what we're 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.559 all searching for. They say, the true tragedy in life 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.000 is not how much we suffer. The true tragedy is 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.440 how much we miss, how much of the beauty that 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:44.199 we just walk past or run past, not even aware 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.319 of what's happening. So to cultivate mindfulness, I think it's 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.079 the number one most important thing to really live a happy, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:51.240 fulfilled life. 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.320 I've heard you say that you don't love that phrase, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.800 who wants a full mind? Yeah, and it is a 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.200 phrase that has gotten way over you used. But it 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.520 doesn't change the simple fact that being aware of what's 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.520 going on in our mind and around us is kind 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:08.280 of the whole game. 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.240 Yeah that's the cheat code. 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.000 Yeah, Yeah, that's the. 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.720 Cheat code to beat the game. Yeah, that's that's it. Yeah, 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:17.240 I don't like that. I like you. You did, you 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:21.679 did your homework. Yeah, mindfulness is you know, language, language 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.080 is power. It depends on how I'm feeling, I guess, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.680 you know, But mindfulness sometimes I use awareness or mindful awareness, 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.240 presence awareness. All of these are words that really point 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.040 to the same thing, which is just coming back to 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.080 the witness. Just witness. Don't get involved in the thoughts, 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.760 don't get it, just just witness. Just watch. There's a guy, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.800 Anthony de Mello. He said, don't try to change your life, 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:48.040 just just watch it and then it'll change. Then it 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:48.640 will change. 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.480 He is a great seer and his writing is very 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.560 confrontational too. It is no no bs, like, he's not 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.200 soft footing around any of it. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:57.600 You know. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.319 It caught me off guard first reading. I was a 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.320 little bit like, whoa, hang on, buddy, take it down 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.040 a notch. But he's speaking the truth, you know, Yeah, 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:05.840 speaking the truth. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.560 I think the truth sometimes has to be told in 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:09.760 a way that shakes you up. 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:11.559 Yeah, for sure, you. 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.960 Know, because we don't change when we're comfortable. That's a 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.840 message for me. I think that's definitely part and parcel 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.720 of my success, and it's something that I have to 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.439 also remember that it really is about the package it's 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.160 about the package. It's not just about the message, but 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.440 it's about the packaging. Right, Like if you go to 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:37.400 a restaurant, it's a five star Michelin restaurant, and the 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.360 waiter brings out the food and they bring it out 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.360 on a paper plate and give you some plastic utensils, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:50.120 the packaging isn't right. So it's really it's the same thing. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.160 The one you feed, how you serve the food has 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.439 to be packaged in a way that I think really 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.040 does justice to it. And I think what you're saying 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.800 is Anthony de Mello. He was very, very forthcoming, very 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.560 to the point, very poignant. Yeah, in the way that 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.440 he communicated, and I love it. And I think the 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.360 most powerful people Martin Luther King. I mean he man 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.280 that guy he was cutting, he was cutting, he cut through. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:13.880 Yeah. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:14.640 Yeah. 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.760 Behind me there's a statue of a Bodhi Satfa called Manjuicry. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.600 And one of the reasons I love Manjuicery is he's, 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.640 you know, got one hand on like a lotus, right, 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.600 but the other one is holding a flaming sword, and 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:32.160 that flaming sword's job is to cut through ignorance. And 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.760 that's kind of what we're saying here is sometimes that's 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.520 the cutting that needs to occur. 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:38.880 That's beautiful. You gotta send me a picture of that 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.960 after we finished. I love that. I've never heard of him. 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:48.120 Yeah, he's a Bodhisatfa in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition. So 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.640 changing gears. I'm wondering if we could talk a little 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.520 bit about you and your challenges depression. You made a 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.280 video with a I don't know what the group was. 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.040 It's a group that supports mental ill this recovery. Is 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.560 it called Impact maybe. Yeah, it's quite a video of 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.480 you've got depression as a person sitting in a crime room. 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:08.719 Right. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.760 I was really moved by it. But talk to me about, 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.760 you know, when you had depression and what. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.600 Was it like. Yeah, well, you know, I grew up 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.120 on the north side of Saint Louis, and you know, 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.120 my family we're very like, I don't know, traditional in 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.840 the sense of most people where I'm from. We don't 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.040 really go to therapists. So I say that to say 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:34.200 I was never clinically diagnosed. I never got on medication 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.800 or anything like that. I didn't go to church or 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:38.520 I know a lot of people are like you know, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.400 just pray it away, or you know, Jesus will take 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.120 the will and make it go away. I think there's 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:49.920 an element of spirituality that can indeed help depressive states. Yep. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.600 But I also think there's a science, and I think 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.680 we need to kind of look to the science. I 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:57.400 love the Dolly Loma. I know he's in some hot 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.920 water these days. He always says, Hey, if science did 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.840 disagrees with Buddhism, we might have to rethink Buddhist teachings. 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.800 And I love that. I say that to say it 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.080 wasn't never clinically depressed, but I looked at all the 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:14.080 symptoms and I definitely experienced depression throughout my adolescence. And 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.000 also I do feel as though just my own awareness 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:22.880 that my brain that I have could be biochemically I 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:28.480 believe that it may lean naturally towards that state because 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:33.200 I know that if I don't ingest certain minerals, supplements, 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.000 do certain things, it just kind of goes that way. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.400 It can still be here. But I've also trained it 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:44.600 through different therapies CBTRBT Buddhist tradition is also a good 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.600 fortification of the mind and to not believe in the 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.560 thinking mind. Stoicism. I can kind of rally off all 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.320 the names of the things that I've studied to help me. 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.000 But it all started I think, Like I said, my 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:04.760 adolescence definitely experience, you know, some suicidal thoughts. They weren't 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:07.640 like every day, but there were some points where I 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.840 woke up and I just didn't want to be here, 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.160 didn't care about my parents, didn't care about friends, just 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:17.120 didn't want to go outside. Right, These are kind of 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.040 classic depressive symptoms. And then I just started looking into it. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:24.320 I just started trying to understand it, and came across 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.080 a book from David Burns called Feeling Good. The New 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.080 Mood Therapy, came across books like the Dowd Chain, came 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.840 across traditions like Advita Vedanta. Say that you were not 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:39.560 these thoughts. You were not the thinking mind. Thoughts come 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:43.240 and go like clouds in the sky. Watch your thoughts 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.600 like you're crossing the street and you watch traffic. So 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.320 these different things. What they did was they gave me distance. 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.120 They gave me distance from the thoughts. I wasn't the 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.400 thought itself, I wasn't tied up in it. I could 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:57.920 actually observe it. I could watch it, I could be 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:00.560 mindful of it and just that awareness. This was a 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.440 huge relief, a huge relief. But I think the depression 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.960 was also a bit of a gift because it allowed 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.240 me to look within and find out what was going 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.520 on under the hood. You know, what kind of nutrient 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.720 therapies amino acids could I play with to change the 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.360 hormonal balance in my brain. So I always tell people 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.800 that think that they are depressed, I say, you are 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.120 not depressed. You are experiencing depression. Who you are is 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.720 not depressed. Who you are can observe that depression, and 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:36.000 it's difficult to understand that when you're in it. Learn 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.160 helplessness is a huge thing. But I love the work 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.920 of He was a scientist and he created something called 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:47.120 learned optimism. And I think we can retrain our brains, 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.560 as we were talking about earlier, to see the good, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.920 to see the positive, to just shift our perceptions. There 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.640 are so many tools that I always tell people it's 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.080 not hopeless. It's not a hopeless situation that you're in. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.600 In fact, you should be very hopeful because there are 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.320 so many tools out there in all modern world today 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.400 that you just have to find it. You have to 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:09.760 find the right one that works for you. So, you know, 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:12.240 going back to my story, I think depression played a 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.800 role if it forced me to try to understand it, 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:17.360 and I think at one level it also allowed me 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.360 to bring out the creativity inside of me, to bring 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.440 out the vulnerability inside of me. You know, I started 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.240 out as a musician, and you know, a musician is 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.760 like a poet, is a very vulnerable art form. And 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.520 so I was very vulnerable and very vocal about what 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:36.920 I was going through. And you know, when I would 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.040 create music, I would find my audience they would say, Oh, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.400 I feel the exact same way, Thank you for putting 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.720 that out there. And then that's how you build community, 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.120 That's how you build friendships, That's how you build connection. 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.240 Connection came from the expression which some say is the 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:55.120 opposite of depression. Depression. While you know, I think it 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.880 is a virus, I think that it can also be 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:03.320 an opportunity, tunity, a signal, an alarm that something's off. 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.280 You may not be living the life that you're meant 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:05.879 to live. 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.639 Yeah, I'm very similar to you. I think I have 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.000 a brain that orients towards that direction. When I let 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:16.000 it off its leash, you know, and I, like you, 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.840 have found that there's a lot of different things that 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.879 contribute to managing it. There's a lot of different tools, 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:23.640 and I've had to over the years kind of put 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.320 together my little depression recovery kit. You know, mine's going 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.440 to look different than other people's, but knowing what's in 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.800 that kit becomes very important. And as you were talking 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.840 about the thoughts, I was thinking a little bit about 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.280 you know, part of the problem with depression is that 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.639 when I'm in it, when I'm experiencing it, I like 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.520 your phrase, when I'm experiencing it right, I can know 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.919 that my thoughts are not correct. I can be like, look, 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.560 you know, your brain's not working real well today, and 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:54.359 you know, ignore those thoughts, and underneath it there's still 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:58.760 this like ugh feelane, you know. And I've talked on 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.000 this show many times about some times I treat it 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.680 a little bit like the I call it the emotional flu, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.440 you know, which is that when it comes, I treat 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.840 it a little bit like I would the flu, meaning 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.760 I don't make a big fuss out of it. I 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.879 don't take myself to the emergency room. I make sure 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.879 am I doing everything I can to support myself. I 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.800 know that while I'm sick, the world's going to look 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.800 kind of crappy, you know, I let it kind of roll. 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.320 Now that's again after having dealt with it head on. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.679 So I'm not saying that's always the case, but for 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.480 me becoming aware of the fact that, like there's some 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.679 degree of this low mood that feels like it's a 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:38.200 companion of mine that doesn't seem like it's going to 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:41.440 completely go away. So how do I work with it 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.600 as skillfully as I can? And to your point, you know, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.280 what opportunities does it present? You know, I wouldn't be 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.600 doing the work I do, like you if I hadn't 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.600 had it. You know, I wouldn't be doing the work 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.800 I do if I hadn't been a heroin addict. I mean, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:59.280 all these things contribute to our lives being meaningful. They're 0:18:59.320 --> 0:18:59.960 part of our story. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.160 That's it. I love the analogy of the puzzle pieces putting, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.000 and everybody has their own puzzle that they have to 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.280 put together, right, Like I think social support for just 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.040 the human species is it works right, So that's a 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.360 big one. The thing about depression is like when you're 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.800 in it, that's the last thing you want is to 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.240 be around people. Yeah, the very thing that can allow 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.720 you to come out of it is the thing that 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.520 you're like pushing away, which is another trick totally. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.359 Even things like movement, right, Like, we know movement helps, 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.040 but the last thing you want to do is move 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.320 when you're feeling depressed exactly. It is challenging in that way. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:39.639 How do you work through that? 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.040 Well, you know, I haven't had the need to work 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:48.120 through it lately, but in the past. Well, just that book, right, So, 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.320 that book by David Burns is so powerful, right, you 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.240 know the book, right, I do. So this book actually 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:58.080 created a practice of its own called bibliotherapy. People got 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.720 better just by reading the book. It's got so many 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:03.680 tools in it. I think if you read the book, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.080 or if you study CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.360 or is I like to call it crushing bad thoughts, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.920 you will find a list of ten cognitive distortions. Print 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.760 this list out, put it on your refrigerator, put it 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.520 anywhere that you can see it. Because I feel like, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.479 whenever we suffer ninety nine percent of the times, it 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:28.720 is because of one of these ten cognitive distortions. Period. 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.400 But when you see it you can see, Oh there 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.400 it is. My brain's just trying to trick me again, right, 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.320 so you observe it. Yes, depression is something you really 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.800 can't think your way out of it. You can't intellectualize 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:42.760 your way out of it. This is why I think 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:48.359 behavioral activation is one of the more successful treatments for depression. Moving, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.000 like you say, you don't want to move. So this 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.239 is why having that good social support, that network is 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.040 so so important. That's the biggest thing. I mean, this 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.959 is the reason why I like to study cultures. You know, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.920 I've got my degree in anthropology, and I love Dan 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:06.240 Buttner's work on the Blue zones where you have people 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.119 rights people who are you know, centenarians. They live well 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.639 past one hundred years old, and they're healthy, theyre happy, 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.960 they're vibrant, they're still having sex, they're still you know, 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:21.920 watering their gardens, they're still playing with their great great grandkids, 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.600 they're still riding the bike. And you know, this is 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:28.320 baffled a lot of scientists for years, and they really 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.560 finally figured out why they lived so long. And it's 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.479 because of their friendships. It's because of the love that 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:36.840 they have around, right. They a lot of them have 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.200 the same friends that they have when they were kids, 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.000 when they were ten now and they're one hundred and ten, 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.240 they have the same people around them. So the human animal, 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.239 I think we do need each other, and when we 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.040 get in these low mood states, we have to trust 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:52.639 the people around us. Yeah. 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.840 Yeah, I think that's really true and really important, and 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.720 those other people can be the things that do help 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.080 us do some of the things that we need to do, 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:03.800 you know, that are good for us. But one of 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.880 my favorite quotes is depression hates a moving target, right, 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.320 So for me, that's kind of it. It's like, just 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.000 get off the couch, doesn't even matter what, just be moving, 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.600 you know, And how much I'm able to do may vary. 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:19.320 I may be like, well, you know, today I'm not 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.560 going to get on the peloton bike and do a 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.119 crushing hour ride, but I might walk, you know, around 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:24.560 the block. 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.320 Yeah, here's something else you don't even have to move, 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.399 but it simulates moving. But a sauna, a sauna or 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:34.679 a ice bath, both of those things. I mean, you 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:40.120 can just sit there, right and you are making physiological 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.199 changes in your body. You are helping your nervous system, 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.159 You're fighting depression. When you just sit there so you 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:48.520 can sweat it out and you can shiver it. 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:51.440 Out too, or you can do both. That's my favorite 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.359 back and forth back and for Okay, yeah, but you 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.520 brought up sauna. So you've got a fairly new podcast 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.439 that you do in a sauna. You basically have people 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:05.000 come join you in the sauna. Why'd you choose to 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:06.640 do a podcast in the sauna? 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.800 You know? I just like doing stuff that's never been done. Yeah, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.960 I am one who takes the road less traveled or 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.720 not even paved, I should say, so I wanted to 0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:19.480 do something different. And also I've had a lot of 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.720 good conversations inside of sauna's, you know, at the gym, 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.840 at the club, you know, So it's like, what about 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:31.480 having conversations with celebrity scientists, cool people just inside of 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.120 a sauna as we as we sweat out the toxins 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.120 and the bs. Well, what's what can happen? So we 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.560 landed on a sauna. We tried to figure out how 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.680 to get the equipment inside the sauna without melting. We 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:43.720 figured it out and. 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.399 It sounds really good. I was like, I can't believe 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:49.040 how good this sounds for being in a sauna. 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.879 Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's that's my producer, Dustin. 0:23:53.000 --> 0:23:56.000 He works magic. But we got it. It's an infrared sauna. 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.520 It's not a dry sauna, so it doesn't get that hot. 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:00.840 But so we do twenty men us in the sauna, 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:03.439 and then we do another twenty minutes outside the sauna 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:07.080 for like what we call a hydration session where we sit, 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.639 we get like a foot bath with Epsen Saw, we 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:14.080 drink coconut water, and we continue the conversation in our bathrobes. 0:24:15.840 --> 0:24:17.560 Sounds like a good podcast, gig. 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:21.000 I haven't had any complaints. Yes, they love it. Come by, 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:22.080 we can get. 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.240 In all right, I will take you up on that. 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:24.800 Awesome. 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.720 We've given our Instagram account a new look, and we're 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:53.520 sharing content there that we don't share anywhere else, encouraging 0:24:53.680 --> 0:24:56.560 positive posts with wisdom that support you and feeding your 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:58.920 good wolf, as well as in behind the scenes video 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:01.159 of the show and so of Giny andized day to 0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:03.880 day life, which I'm kind of still amazed that anybody 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.320 would be interested in. It's also a great place for 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:08.520 you to give us feedback on the episodes that you 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:11.720 like or concepts that you've learned that you think are helpful, 0:25:11.880 --> 0:25:14.080 or any other feedback you'd like to give us. If 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.960 you're on Instagram, follow us it at one underscore you 0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:21.640 underscore feed and those words are all spelled out. One 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:25.520 underscore You underscore feed to add some nourishing content to 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.639 your daily scrolling. See you there. So I want to 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.920 talk a little bit about meditation. It's a big thing 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:34.520 in your life, a practice you were really into, and 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:36.800 I wanted to just sort of start and ask you 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:39.879 a little bit about what is the type of meditation 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:43.679 you're doing these days? How has that changed over time, 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:46.800 how does it vary week to week, month to month. 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:49.560 I'm just kind of curious how you approach that big topic. 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:52.439 First of all, I want to say I love your questions, 0:25:53.080 --> 0:25:55.840 I love your vibe. I'm so excited to talk about 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:58.880 these questions because they're super important. I don't think there's 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:02.199 anything more important than the topic of meditation. I do 0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:06.320 believe that meditation is the anti virus software that can 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:10.439 cure our world of all of its ills. Meditation is 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:14.560 not something you do, it's actually a state of being. 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.159 I think there are portals into that state, but I 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.480 think the portals have gotten a bit confused. But the 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:27.080 portals of meditation they vary. Right. I'm a big tntra guy, 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:30.480 and I know people listening to this they might say, oh, Tantra, 0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:35.360 you must have crazy wild sex. Huh. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:38.959 no no. See, this is what the commercialization of spirituality 0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:44.159 has done. So tantra is a science and one of 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:48.960 my favorite books the Vignanna Baharava Tntra. It speaks of 0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:54.320 one hundred and twelve Tontric practices to reach the point 0:26:54.359 --> 0:27:00.000 of what they call baharava oneness Christiana consciousness, christ consciousness, 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:04.119 whatever name nirvana. Only two of them have to do 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:07.760 with sex. One that has to do with sex really 0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:09.920 doesn't even have to do with sex. What it is 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.040 is they say, at the point of orgasm, you put 0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:18.240 your mind fully on God. So I love the practices 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:23.600 of tantra because they take meditation. I'm using air quotes. 0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:28.000 They take meditation off the mat, they take it out 0:27:28.000 --> 0:27:31.600 of lotus and bring it in the world. Right. Yeah. 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:36.479 One of my favorite is space spatial awareness. Right. So, 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:38.919 I don't know if people are driving. If you're driving, 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:41.680 don't do this, But if you're sitting in a room 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.359 or maybe when you pull over or you sit in 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:47.320 your office. I want you to just look around and 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:49.920 ask yourself what do you see? And when I ask 0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:53.480 people this question, they say, oh, well, I see chairs, 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:56.280 I see a desk, I see a window, I see people. 0:27:57.240 --> 0:27:59.359 And I say, okay, yeah, but you miss that which 0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:05.160 was most of the space, which allows all that to inhabit. 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:09.280 The space is what we are space. I feel like 0:28:09.280 --> 0:28:11.920 if there's any religion or any god that should be worshiped, 0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:15.280 it should be space because space is the most abundant 0:28:15.320 --> 0:28:19.159 thing in the universe. Matter is very very very tiny. 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:21.960 Any physicists will tell you this, but this is just 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:26.160 one to really focus on the space. You can focus 0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:32.320 on the space in between my words. So when you're 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:38.560 speaking to somebody, you put your mind attention on the space, 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:42.280 and what happens is your mind starts to take the 0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:45.640 form of the space. So this is something that people 0:28:45.680 --> 0:28:49.680 can do anywhere, anywhere. It really brings you to this 0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:55.040 nondual awareness, this peace, and this feeling of home. One 0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:57.840 of my favorite gurus and the Sarka Data Maharaji's got 0:28:57.840 --> 0:28:59.920 a quote that I have on my wall and he says, 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.760 he says, having never left the house, you have been 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:06.760 searching for the way home. Having never left the house, 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:09.280 you have been searching for the way home. We search, 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:13.800 search and search in life for joy and happiness and fulfillment. 0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:17.840 And what he's saying is, it's already here. It's you. 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:21.080 It's not something you even have to do. It's your 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:25.640 very nature. It's here and now. I love this practice, 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:29.760 this contric practice. One other meditation that people can do 0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:31.560 in their daily life that I like to do from 0:29:31.600 --> 0:29:35.160 Tom to Tom is a walking meditation that I got 0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:39.000 from tick Nott Han, the zen Monk best selling author. 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:42.840 We mentioned Martin Luther King earlier. Martin Luther King nominated 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:46.760 tik Not Han for a Nobel Peace Prize. And what 0:29:46.840 --> 0:29:50.480 you do is, when you're walking, you can be in nature, 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:53.920 you can be in your office. When you're walking, you 0:29:53.920 --> 0:29:57.800 want to focus on your breath. And with each step 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:01.400 you want to breathe in. And as you breathe in, 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:04.680 you say to yourself, I am here, and you breathe 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:08.000 out on the exhale, you say, I am home, So 0:30:08.160 --> 0:30:12.040 I am here on the inhale. I am home on 0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:16.200 the exhale. And you do this as you walk, and 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:20.440 as you walk, you imagine your feet are kissing the 0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:24.320 earth with every step. So you say, I am here, 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:28.080 I am home, and as you walk, you kiss the 0:30:28.200 --> 0:30:30.640 earth with every step. And what you're gonna notice is 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.600 your pace is gonna slow down, and you are gonna 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:37.400 be filled with so much joy and presence and a 0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:41.320 liveness with this meditation. So this is another one of 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.560 my favorites. Let me give you three, just to finish 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:47.520 the trinity off. Let's see what else I got. So 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.920 this is one that I got from a guy named 0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:52.880 Stephen Walynsky. I don't know if you're familiar with this guy, 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:54.400 Stephen Wilensky. I'm not. 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:56.880 I've followed you on all the references so far, but 0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:58.560 you've got one here. I don't know, Okay. 0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:01.240 So Stephen Wallinsky is like there's a few people that 0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:03.960 I want to meet in the world. Could probably count 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:05.760 them with one hand. And he's probably at the top 0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.280 of my list as an author. He's written so many 0:31:08.320 --> 0:31:11.560 beautiful books, he's done documentaries. I have no idea where 0:31:11.600 --> 0:31:13.920 he is now. He kind of just disappeared. He's probably 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.080 in deep meditation somewhere. He was a disciple of the 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:20.160 guy that I mentioned the saga Da of Maharaj and 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:24.240 Stephen Wilinsky had a meditation where what you do is 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.800 you well, First, you obviously you know, you bring yourself 0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:29.480 to this moment. You relax your face, your jaw, your eyes, 0:31:29.520 --> 0:31:38.240 your shoulders, take a breath, and then you ask yourself, 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:48.280 without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, am 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:55.440 I an American? Am I Russian? Am I Ukrainian? Am 0:31:55.440 --> 0:32:01.360 I Canadian? Or neither? And then you do that again. 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:08.600 You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, or memories, 0:32:09.680 --> 0:32:17.520 am I black? Am I White? Am I Asian? Or neither? 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:26.280 And then you go deeper. You say, without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:32.760 or memories, am I a man? Am I a woman? 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:45.360 Or neither? And then you go deeper without using your thoughts, associations, perceptions, emotions, 0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:52.200 or memories. Am I a human being? Am I even 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:59.760 a spiritual being? Or neither? And what you do is 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:08.000 you stay in this gentle, non judgmental awareness. This is 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:15.320 our true nature. This is home, This is who we 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:20.680 always were, without a name, without a label. This is 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:24.720 why the Hindus. If you look at the Sanskrit word nirvana, 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:28.880 people think nirvana is this state of h just ecstasy 0:33:29.000 --> 0:33:34.480 and amazing bliss. Actually, the word nirvana means extinction. There's 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:41.120 no more you there, yep. So that meditation alone, I think, 0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:45.280 is a shortcut to pretty much what every spiritual tradition 0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:49.760 points to, which is the oneness. Right. 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:53.320 What's really interesting about that type of meditation, as you said, 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:56.080 is get into that place when you suddenly said I'm 0:33:56.120 --> 0:34:00.120 not any of those things, to go well what am I? 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.560 And to really look at that and if you're able 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:06.040 to stay with it. You know, my experience is what 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.120 you will find is like I I don't know. Yeah, 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.400 but as you were talking, I can never pronounce that 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:12.760 spiritual teacher's. 0:34:12.440 --> 0:34:15.520 Name, miss Argandauda maharajh. 0:34:15.800 --> 0:34:18.920 Yeah, you know he's got that idea of you know, 0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:22.680 you abide with that sense of I am, that's it, 0:34:22.880 --> 0:34:25.520 nothing after it I am. Because when you do that, 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:29.120 you're like, well, I'm clearly there's something here, like something is, 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:31.640 but but what is it? Where is it? 0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:32.759 What shape is it? 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:35.520 You just suddenly start going like, well, I don't know, 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:38.879 there's nothing here that to find And it's a mystifying, 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:43.319 sometimes mildly disconcerted and state. If you can get to it, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:45.080 but also deeply freeing. 0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:47.160 Only for the mind. Only for the mind. 0:34:47.400 --> 0:34:48.759 That's fair, Yeah, because the. 0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:51.239 Mind wants to figure it out. It wants to objectify 0:34:51.320 --> 0:34:54.880 that which cannot be objectified. The eye cannot see itself, 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:58.480 the knife cannot cut itself. The mind cannot truly know 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:02.000 it's itself. What's what's being behind it? You can't get 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:04.440 there with the mind. It's not the right tool. I 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:10.000 think the last step of the inquiry is when the 0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:12.320 questions themselves disappear. 0:35:12.640 --> 0:35:16.400 Yep, I was out today. I've been meditating in nature recently. 0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:21.080 I'm teaching a retreat this summer at Kripolu about nature 0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:23.759 and connecting with nature as a way, and so I've 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:26.720 been really engaging in that practice. And I started reflecting 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:30.640 on something I heard recently. It was some book about 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:35.400 human development or evolutionary past, and that there was a 0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:38.799 time that we were human but we didn't have language 0:35:40.719 --> 0:35:44.919 to imagine what that might be like. Is a fascinating 0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:49.640 thought experiment, because most of our thoughts are words that 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:52.800 we're saying to ourselves. But if you didn't have those words, 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:56.680 what is the experience of being? And I've found that 0:35:56.719 --> 0:36:00.319 it's a really interesting thing. To reflect on, you know, 0:36:00.320 --> 0:36:02.479 and I do that sometimes, is like to your point, 0:36:02.560 --> 0:36:07.839 if not using memories, you know, not using language even Yeah, 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:10.960 what is this is a really powerful way for me 0:36:11.040 --> 0:36:12.879 to get closer to that state of. 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:18.480 Being Wow, Yeah, because the word is not the thing, right, it's. 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:22.440 Now that can be named, is not the doubt right. 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:25.520 And yep, yep, yep. So that's how we get caught up. 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:27.560 We get caught up in the words. So that's a 0:36:27.600 --> 0:36:31.320 fascinating thought experiment exactly. 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:33.799 Well, but we must have been thinking, we must have 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:37.120 been thinking, right, yeah, you know, but we didn't have 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:39.719 the words. And it's just it's similar to me when 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:41.400 I try and imagine what it might be like to 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:44.520 be an octopus, for example. It's just a fun way 0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.719 of trying to say, like, there are states of consciousness 0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:51.279 that are very different than the ones we inhabit, and 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:54.080 what are the different ways of kind of getting closer 0:36:54.080 --> 0:36:56.040 to those and being able to see with those eyes. 0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:59.240 I'm a zen practitioner primarily, and one of my teachers 0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:02.040 said to me, I thought this was so wise. We 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:06.680 do a lot of coon practice in right, and they're nonsense, 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:10.440 right at first glance, they're nonsense, but The advice I 0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:14.000 was given is sometimes imagine what the state of mind 0:37:15.080 --> 0:37:17.440 would have to be for the person who said that 0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:21.239 and believes it to be true, instead of going that 0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:24.880 doesn't make any sense, that's nonsense. To say what state 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:26.839 of mind would I have to be in that that. 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:27.640 Would be true. 0:37:27.920 --> 0:37:32.840 It's sort of a reverse engineering way of entering into 0:37:32.920 --> 0:37:35.120 the mind, and you can't do it exactly. These are 0:37:35.120 --> 0:37:38.680 all just tools portals to use your work, right. 0:37:39.080 --> 0:37:39.279 You know. 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:41.879 That's another one is when a spiritual teacher says something 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:44.960 that you're like that that sounds nuts. One way of 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:47.239 approaching is go, well, what would their mind state have 0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:48.960 to be for that to be true? You know, we're 0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:52.320 just kind of playing with ways of getting deeper powerful. 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:54.839 I mean, you can't see, I got chill bumps here. 0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:58.320 I mean, that's it. That's empathy, right, empathy the Greek 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:00.480 word to see through the eye of the I mean, 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:03.920 that's it. I mean. There's another meditation that I love. 0:38:03.960 --> 0:38:07.200 It's called to install the Guru. So what you do 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:12.320 is you visualize your guru or your teacher, your enlightened master, 0:38:12.600 --> 0:38:15.880 and from the feet to the head, you imagine that 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:20.440 their body merges with yours. You have installed the Guru 0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:23.839 into this self, which is very similar. Like what state 0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:26.400 of mind would that have to be in right to 0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:30.719 believe that powerful? Love? That? Eric? So good? So good. 0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:59.520 Do you have a spiritual teacher that you actually work 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:01.759 with or do you feel like your spiritual teachers are 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:04.920 primarily the people that you read? I mean, I know 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.120 you're a voracious reader, just as I am. Do you 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:10.239 have teachers that you actually work with or has it 0:39:10.440 --> 0:39:13.640 been more your sort of quote unquote gurus are the 0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:15.360 people we've talked about that you're reading. 0:39:15.600 --> 0:39:20.200 Yeah, yeah, the latter. I've definitely attended seminars and like 0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:25.239 Byron Katie and love her Gangaje and Eli Jackson Bearer 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:29.080 who were disciples of a man named Papa g And 0:39:29.280 --> 0:39:31.959 you know, being around some of these people, but never 0:39:32.280 --> 0:39:35.480 on like a one to one student disciple. I've never 0:39:35.560 --> 0:39:38.120 had that. But I've just been so touched by so 0:39:38.239 --> 0:39:41.680 many masters. You know. I think rom Dos was one 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:45.680 of my first on ramps into spirituality him and you know, 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:50.479 Timothy Leary, Robert Anton Wilson. I'm a big science guy too. 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.720 So people say, oh, science and spirituality they don't go together. 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:57.399 Why not? Well, science is the empirical pursuit of the truth, 0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.880 and spirituality is the experience that you pursue for the 0:40:01.000 --> 0:40:02.640 nature of what's real. 0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:05.960 Yeah, they should go together, I mean, because you're seeking 0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:07.839 the truth in both cases exactly. 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:10.600 Yeah. So I never had a direct teacher. I think that. 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.280 That's not to say I never will. I do believe 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:17.120 that everything that we need is within us. Sometimes we 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.279 are grace to be able to see that, and sometimes 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.680 people need a master or a guru to point to 0:40:23.719 --> 0:40:27.040 it and tell them that actually, you're already that you 0:40:27.040 --> 0:40:27.799 don't even need me. 0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:31.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. All these stories of people like Rhamdas 0:40:31.719 --> 0:40:34.600 when they saw their Guru and they instantly were like 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:39.439 transformed has made it difficult for me to work with 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:42.799 Zen teachers, which I found to be beneficial working one 0:40:42.840 --> 0:40:45.600 on one with a teacher, because my mind is always like, well, 0:40:45.640 --> 0:40:47.920 is this a truly enlightened being? And it's kind of 0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:51.560 silly right in a way, because it's almost they're more 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:55.000 like a spiritual friend than they are, like, aren't guru? 0:40:55.239 --> 0:40:55.439 Right? 0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:58.520 But in the Zen tradition there are I don't like 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:00.399 this word, but I don't have a better one. There 0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:03.360 are correct responses to co ons that have been passed 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:05.680 down for thousands of years, and your teacher is the 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:09.319 one who's like, yep, good, let's go into the next one. 0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:12.800 Or you know, very politely. Some are more polite than others. 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:14.479 You know, you need to sit with. 0:41:14.400 --> 0:41:14.919 That some more. 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:17.160 Is what my teacher would always say, which is al 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:20.280 way of saying, nope, you do not have Yeah. 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:23.400 Yeah, I love coons, by the way, and I'm so 0:41:23.520 --> 0:41:26.640 happy that you study that. I've got books to stick 0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:28.400 on all the coons. 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:29.160 Yeah. 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:31.759 Yet, you know, it's what I've gotten from it is 0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:34.240 actually you become the answer. 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:37.920 That's exactly it. The answer is always that, you know. 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:40.920 It's a little of that game we talked about a 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:44.120 minute ago, like what would it be like to be 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:48.160 in the mind? You know, what would it be like 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:53.759 to be the distant temple bell ringing? You know, that's one. 0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:56.200 How do you stop the sound of a distant temple 0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:56.880 bell ringing? 0:41:57.000 --> 0:41:57.160 Right? 0:41:57.360 --> 0:42:00.279 You can't get to it right, you know, And so 0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:03.279 it's about you become that thing. Some of it to 0:42:03.360 --> 0:42:06.759 me has been an imaginative exercise which turns out to 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:08.520 be a powerful approach. 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:13.719 Love that. Yeah, that's it, that's it. Yeah, Coon's what 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:16.839 what's my favorite kan Yeah, the Sound of one hand 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:20.480 clapping classic, probably the most famous one. Yeah. Yeah. Does 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:25.879 a dog have Buddha nature move mood? Yeah exactly. Yeah, 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:29.440 it's so many beautiful ones, so many, they're they're great. 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:30.600 I love them so much. 0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:34.000 Yeah, there's a book that you might like, if you 0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:36.920 haven't read it. It's called Bring Me the Rhinoceros. 0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:39.520 Maybe that sounds very coon like. 0:42:39.719 --> 0:42:42.520 Yeah, yeah, Bring Me the Rhinoceros, by a Zen teacher 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:46.640 named John Karen T A R. R. T. It's another 0:42:46.680 --> 0:42:49.239 one of those where yeah, I mean basically that's the 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:51.480 end of the Coon Bring Me the Rhinoceros, which of 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:55.319 course is just nonsensical, but ye know, so good. But 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:58.960 that's a really great book about Coon's and about sort 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:02.560 of a modern and he's a beautiful writer and teacher. 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:06.879 He's really gifted. If you're into Coon's, that's definitely one 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:10.000 to read. Okay, Bring Me the Rhinoceros. 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:11.759 Write it down, now, bring me the Right, Bring Me 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:14.399 the Rhino cool. I'm on it. I'm on it. 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:17.160 I loved what you said about meditation, about bringing them 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:20.040 into more of the moments of our lives, taking them 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:22.839 out of you know, just a formal sitting practice. I've 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:25.480 got a program called Spiritual Habits where we try and 0:43:25.560 --> 0:43:27.920 take the science and behavior change and apply it to 0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.279 spiritual principles. And that's really the key piece is like, 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:33.759 it's great to believe in these things, it's great to 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:36.319 think about these things, but you need them in the 0:43:36.360 --> 0:43:39.439 moments of your life. And so you're talking about doing that. 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:43.000 Do you have a formal practice that you do regularly 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:45.840 or is it kind of just depend on different phases 0:43:45.840 --> 0:43:46.960 of your life, different things. 0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:51.520 I don't have a formal practice. It is very spontaneous. 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:55.680 I think throughout the day what I find happening is 0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:58.479 just a reflex to come back to the here and now. 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:01.560 But I don't do that, you know, the thirty minutes 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:04.759 in the morning or oh show, I think you know, 0:44:05.120 --> 0:44:08.000 he said, Actually, I think it can be useful, but 0:44:08.120 --> 0:44:14.839 I think when meditation becomes regimented, very militarized, we can 0:44:14.920 --> 0:44:18.760 miss the beauty the life of it. Yeah, the spontaneity 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:19.160 of it. 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:22.040 So of more interest than that, actually is what you 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:25.360 just said, which is you reflexively come back more to 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:28.319 the present moment. How did you train yourself to do that? 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:31.000 Because what I think is one of the biggest problems 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:34.360 to what we're talking about, which is having these moments 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:37.760 throughout our day where we connect back to the moment, 0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:40.239 our deeper nature, whatever you want to connect back to, 0:44:40.800 --> 0:44:44.840 is that we forget, We get busy, and we forget. 0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:47.600 And so to me, the holy grail is when you 0:44:47.680 --> 0:44:50.799 begin to sort of as you're saying, you've trained this 0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.160 into yourself a little bit, so it is a little 0:44:53.160 --> 0:44:57.280 bit more habitual to turn back towards the present moment, 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:00.360 or turn back towards your deeper nature, and sound like 0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:03.520 you have done that to some degree. Are you able 0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:05.280 to think back to how you got there? 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:08.960 Well, I think there's different paths for different people. I 0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:13.000 feel that it is good to have, like in the beginning, 0:45:13.200 --> 0:45:16.239 to have structure pockets within your day that maybe you 0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.520 do nothing, maybe you're just in a state of wonder, 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:22.320 or just give yourself that space, that openness, that awareness. 0:45:22.680 --> 0:45:25.840 But for me, it was really the practice of self inquiry, 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:30.640 asking myself repeatedly, who am I, to whom do these 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:34.000 thoughts come to? To Whom do these thoughts come to? 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:38.200 To Whom do these thoughts come to? And recognizing that 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:41.799 number one, there's no verbal or intellectual answer to that, 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:45.959 the question just dissolves. And it was at that deep 0:45:46.040 --> 0:45:50.520 recognition that I realized that a lot of the spirituality, 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:54.239 just like a lot of the psychology, is kind of 0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:57.080 just a game of the mind. And I think once 0:45:57.120 --> 0:45:59.880 you recognize your true nature, you're kind of out of 0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:03.640 the game. That glimpse. You just can't unsee it. You 0:46:03.800 --> 0:46:06.160 just can't go back to. I think how it was 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:09.200 if you really saw the illusion for what it is, 0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:13.279 you can't really get in my experience, in this one's experience, 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:16.920 you can't really get caught up. So I think really 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:20.720 recognizing it first, and not just from an intellectual level, 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.840 but really from a deep scene because you know, so 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:27.680 many teachers, even like Adiya Shanti and so many teachers 0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:31.600 one of my favorite. Yeah, yeah, they speak about like 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:35.319 it just being an accident. They say meditation makes you 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:39.080 more accident prone. Yep, but it's like it's it just 0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:42.640 kind of graced. So for me, it was that practice 0:46:42.680 --> 0:46:46.840 of self inquiry that Ramana mah Harshy the the stage 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:51.680 of ourbinachula, his words of to whom the thoughts come to, 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:55.120 where do they arise and what do they subside to 0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:59.759 Just that recognition. The more that you see it, the 0:46:59.760 --> 0:47:02.520 more that the pockets of awareness and the space is 0:47:02.560 --> 0:47:03.759 going to arise. Yep. 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:06.880 Yeah, when you were talking about the meditation on space 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:08.839 and all that, it made me think of There used 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:11.040 to be this meditation app on the phone. This was 0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:14.080 a long time ago and it has since. I don't 0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:16.520 know what it's called. It never got updated. You can't 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:19.400 use it anymore. But it was this kind of amazing 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:24.160 app where it would play a sound. I don't remember 0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:25.440 what it was, whether it was a little bit of 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:28.840 music or what it was, but your job was to 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:33.200 tap the button when the sound went away. And so 0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:36.440 what you were watching for was that disappearance. You were 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.879 watching for things that have come into existence to disappear 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:43.280 from existence. And it was just a totally different way 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:46.680 of doing it than what most of us are doing. 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:49.120 And I loved that app. I wish it still existed 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:52.200 because it was just a fun And when I say fun, 0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:55.080 I mean like I enjoyed doing it. It was effortless 0:47:55.120 --> 0:47:57.000 to kind of sit and do it. You know, you 0:47:57.040 --> 0:47:59.320 can do that with anything right. We can go outside 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:01.919 and do it right. We can notice the sound when 0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:05.879 it comes, but we can also notice when it's gone yea, 0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:07.399 and be like, well where to go? 0:48:07.920 --> 0:48:10.360 That's it? I love that. I love we might have 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:12.200 to work on that and get that app back up 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:13.360 and run in or create. 0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:15.799 Our own I'm down if you want a partner on. 0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:17.440 That, for sure, great, awesome. 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:19.400 I want to ask you a question. I've heard you 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.360 use this phrase before, and you've talked about the world 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:28.480 being not insane but unsane. I'm just curious. That's an interesting, 0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:31.960 slight change of words there. Talk to me about what 0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:33.480 those two things mean to you. 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:39.560 Well, like all words, they're all useless, but for me, 0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:43.400 insanity is one thing. Actually, I believe I got this 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:49.120 phrase from Alfred Korzibsky, author of Science Insanity Beautiful Book. 0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:55.080 Korsibski created a language called English Prime, and in this 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:58.400 language is a very scientific language. You don't use the 0:48:58.520 --> 0:49:03.439 verb to be. You don't say this is a microphone, 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:08.560 this is a mason jar. You say this appears to 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:14.680 be a mason jar. This appears to be a microphone. 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:20.440 And his whole premise on doing that is because absolutism 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:25.440 and certainty has created so much harm and violence in 0:49:25.480 --> 0:49:29.560 our world, and when we can get more skeptical about 0:49:29.560 --> 0:49:32.239 our language. Like we said earlier, the word is not 0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:35.480 the thing. The map is not the territory. It humbles us. 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:38.520 You don't say, oh Bob is angry. You can say, 0:49:38.560 --> 0:49:43.480 oh Bob appears to be angry right now. It softens us. 0:49:44.040 --> 0:49:50.279 It's more aligned with reality. So the unsane mindset is 0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:54.920 I think the mindset of certainty of this is the 0:49:54.920 --> 0:49:57.360 way it is. But for me, I always prefer to 0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:00.200 as the Taoist say that I don't know, my I do. 0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:04.960 The Buddhists say the beginner's mind, right, the expert, what's 0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:06.880 the old saying you probably know this one. 0:50:06.719 --> 0:50:10.280 There in the beginner's mind. There are many many possibility 0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:13.560 experts there's few or yeah, something like that. 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:19.520 Yeah. So I think the world we're very definite. We 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:23.080 don't have that level of doubt or certainty to say 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:26.319 maybe I'm wrong or it's just a beautiful state of 0:50:26.360 --> 0:50:28.640 being to be able to say I don't know, because 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:31.240 it's like, you know, world, you turn on the news, 0:50:31.280 --> 0:50:36.040 everybody knows. Everybody is so one hundred percent certain about everything. 0:50:36.440 --> 0:50:37.600 Oh so certain. 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:38.080 I know. 0:50:38.440 --> 0:50:41.319 There's that great Bertrand Russell quote which is I won't 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:43.120 get it right, but it's something like the problem with 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:47.040 the world is that the intelligent are uncertain about things 0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:49.440 and the idiots are so sure of themselves. Right, Like 0:50:49.520 --> 0:50:51.680 I butchered that someone I'm sure can create it. But 0:50:51.719 --> 0:50:53.799 it was this idea that so many people are so 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:57.799 certain of themselves, and usually their certainty is problematic. 0:50:58.120 --> 0:51:01.680 Yeah. Yeah, and this is what I call insanity, but unsanity. 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:03.799 That's a good word for it, because insanity has a 0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:08.200 more specific framework versus insanity. I like that you've given 0:51:08.280 --> 0:51:11.239 me two different authors that I've never heard of, which 0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:13.800 happens so rarely on this show. You're so excited. 0:51:13.880 --> 0:51:15.880 Yeah, I feel like we're going to do that for 0:51:15.960 --> 0:51:20.160 each other. The bodhisofpha behind you. Yeah, I hope we 0:51:20.239 --> 0:51:23.640 have a great friendship, and I'd love to compare notes 0:51:23.960 --> 0:51:26.440 on all of these amazing things. But I think what 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:29.120 we're doing here is really bringing people to a more 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:33.200 sane way of living and viewing. To know something means 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:37.239 that that something is dead. You can never know your partner, 0:51:37.760 --> 0:51:40.399 you can never know them because they're always changing their 0:51:40.400 --> 0:51:43.319 living organism, they're taking in new information. They have so 0:51:43.400 --> 0:51:44.319 many dimensions. 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:47.960 But we think we do It's that looking again, looking 0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:50.960 more closely and in Zen, we would say not knowing 0:51:51.400 --> 0:51:54.839 is most intimate, and I love that idea because when 0:51:54.840 --> 0:51:57.400 you don't know something, you give it your attention, and 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:01.240 that's where intimacy arises. When you know something, you stop looking, 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:02.840 your intimacy fades. 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:04.640 That's it. Love it. 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:08.840 Wow, Well, we are near the end of our time. 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:12.120 Any sort of last thing you'd like to leave listeners 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:14.640 with based on where your heart and mind is right now. 0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:17.840 I think from what we spoke about, if somebody listening, 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:22.240 maybe just one person is kind of aligned or feels 0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:26.560 something about what we said to really go into a 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:29.600 deep with your full heart. And we talked a lot 0:52:29.640 --> 0:52:33.239 about space. We talked a lot about silence and meditation, 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:36.239 and one of my favorite quotes is from Roomy says 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:40.480 silence is the language of God. All else is poor translation. 0:52:42.600 --> 0:52:45.000 That's a beautiful place to leave it. Thank you so much. 0:52:45.040 --> 0:52:47.880 This has been deeply enjoyable. I'm so glad to have 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:48.799 gotten to have you on. 0:52:49.000 --> 0:52:51.319 Yeah, so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. 0:52:51.400 --> 0:52:53.840 Let's do it again, yeah in the sauna maybe. 0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:58.040 Okay. 0:53:10.760 --> 0:53:13.360 If what you just heard was helpful to you, please 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:16.359 consider making a monthly donation to support the one you 0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:19.600 Feed podcast. 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