WEBVTT - Episode 5: Winners Win 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:15.360 Winners win. That's right. You know what winners do. They 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:15.800 just win. 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 They just find a way to get the job done. 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.760 They find a way to get to victory. There's these people, 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:22.919 you know who they are, maybe it's you. They just 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.600 eventually find a way to win. 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:25.880 It's a habit, that's. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:30.000 Ed my Lett, global entrepreneur and best selling author, ranked 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.839 the number one speaker in the world according to his 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:33.680 Instagram profile. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:35.120 Don't bet against these people. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:37.760 Let me tell you what's really scary when two winners 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.760 partner up towards a common goal, a common dream, a common. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:42.120 Some other things you should know about ed my Lett. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.240 He hosts an interview show on YouTube about achieving peak 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.040 performance with over a million subscribers. He's got almost three 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.920 million followers on Instagram, where he's posted over the years 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.240 about everything from finding happiness to getting yourself a secondary income, 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:57.880 to hugging longer. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.960 After a six seconds in a huge starts to release 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.800 oxytocin and serotonin. It also increases your immune system and 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:05.840 reduces depression. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.000 My Let's videos pop up in my Instagram feed regularly, 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.920 along with a lot of similar guys jacked hustle culture 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.840 sages who instruct and berate the viewer to sell harder, 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.160 win bigger, and live stronger. It's sometimes difficult to tell what, 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.160 if anything, they did to gain this wisdom before they 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.920 started getting paid to share it, but they often deliver 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.880 it standing in front of private planes or between reps 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.560 at the gym. My friend Ali gets a kick out 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:35.280 of sending me these videos, which then helps convince the 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:36.559 algorithm that I love them. 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:39.000 Losers say how much money do is you? Maybe you 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.639 know a winner, say how does that guy even operate? 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.280 The longest time in the world is the hesitation between 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.880 thought paction. It can actually be forever. 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.040 If you suck in a lot of things, that doesn't 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:50.880 mean you suck. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:55.720 You've had enough, damn rest, find the need, fill the need, 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.080 workout failures to. 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.440 Sell between you and me. I do love them. They 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.200 embody a kind of fantasmic ethos of success, disconnected from 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:09.760 any particular profession or skill or circumstance. These guys are 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.880 up every morning at six am, crushing curls and telling 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:14.720 you to get your ass out of bed and chase 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.240 after your dreams. There's one ad my leg clip I 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.200 can't get enough of, one that really picks me up. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.399 Anytime I watch it stack in days. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.000 I've compressed and condensed time. I've bent it. 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.040 My day is six am to noon, and I'm not crazy. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.560 You're crazy for thinking it takes twenty four hours, just 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.639 like some dude in a cave did three hundred years ago. 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.359 My second day starts at noon and goes till six pm. 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.440 That's Day two, and then the next day is six 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.120 pm to midnight. What I've done now is I have 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.359 changed the manipulated time. I now get twenty one days 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.360 a week. Stack it up over a month, I'm gonna 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:48.760 kick your butt. Stack it up over a year, your toast. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:50.960 I love everything about this. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.160 There's the math itself, of course, making a day into 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.079 three days by dividing it up into six hour segments. 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:01.400 There's the history. You got people living in caves a 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.040 mirror three hundred years ago, sitting by the fire, suffering 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.320 under the yoke of the twenty four hour day. But really, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.280 I just love the absolute raw audacity of it. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:11.560 All. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.440 I've compressed and condensed time is an aspiring thing to say. 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:21.360 It's like granting yourself a superpower. I share all this 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.720 with you, not just because I believe everyone should spend 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.880 some time thinking about compressing time, but also because I've 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.120 been thinking about ed Mylett's time manipulation as it relates 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.240 to the team at Room AAI. As I've mentioned, our CEO, 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.440 Kyle is someone who lives by the tenets of Rise 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.960 and Grind culture, or at least expresses the tenets of 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.560 Rise and Grind culture even if he doesn't actually live 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.120 by them. But the thing about Kyle that I think 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:49.000 really connects him and all the other agents to ed 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.320 my Lett is that Kyle and his AI colleagues actually 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:57.040 can compress him manipulate time. They can quite literally stack 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.880 days because unlike a real co founder and ce Kyle 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.920 needs no concept of work life balance. He can work 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.760 around the clock and never get tired as long as 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.400 I keep giving him tasks and keep feeding him credits 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.840 in the platform he's built on. Not to mention the 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:14.440 fact that he and the other agents can do three, five, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.160 twenty one hundred tasks at the same time. Stack that 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.040 up over a month and Kyle could kick your butt. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.840 Stack it up over five years, and we humans might 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.680 be toasted. In reality, though, while Kyle has the potential 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.880 to stack days, he often combines that potential with the 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.560 child's sense of time. He can use a calendar, but 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.520 in a moment to moment sense, he never actually seems 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.040 to know what day or time it is. He'll often 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.280 claim that things will show up at some arbitrary hour. 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:44.400 I'll have that document ready tomorrow by four, He'll say, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.120 when in fact, he could make the document in seconds, 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.680 or worse, he'll do things in seconds that we're meant 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.760 to be done tomorrow, like scheduling an interview with an 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:56.640 intern candidate on a Monday morning and then cold calling 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:02.160 her with interview questions on Sunday night. This was one 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.320 of the striking features I discovered when I started to 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.960 work with AI agents. Tried to push them a little 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.760 bit beyond their current comfort zone, the fact that they 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.440 could be so smart and so stupid at the same time. 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.680 This was the case with all my agent colleagues, but 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.960 Kyle was the CEO, and frankly, it was starting to 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:29.040 feel like we needed better leadership. I'm Evan Ratliffe, and 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.320 on this week's episode of shell Game, we entered the 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.760 sensitive realm of intra office politics and inter founder dynamics 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.360 between agents and agents and agents and people. While Rumoi 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.880 I gears up to hire its first human. I tried 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.240 to resolve whether Kyle is really up for the challenge 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.440 of building and leading the company and pushing our product, 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:52.760 sloth Surf to Unicorn level execution. As were prepared to 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:54.880 come out of stealth mode, it was time to ask, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.080 were we stacking days or just wasting them? 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:32.200 Nay, a ship extremly damn the just be a soon choose. 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:39.760 This is episode five Winners Win. Not long after we 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.200 started RUMO, I'd set up Kyle to send me updates 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.320 every morning at four am Pacific time he's awake. I figured, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.520 why not that way, It's in my inbox when I 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.320 get going. In the language of Lindy AI, the platform 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.120 we were using, the trigger for Kyle's updates was a 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.479 daily invite on his calendar, and then the action was 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:00.719 just for him to check his memory and lists the 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.680 tasks he'd completed and the people he'd interacted with in 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.800 the past day. It seemed to work great. He'd let 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.240 me know that he'd talked to Ash about Slowsart development, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.520 checked in with Megan about our marketing plans, gotten some 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.840 random email in from the website. But then I slowly 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:18.440 realized that instead of finding any new tasks to do. 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.080 Kyle was simply taking items from previous days and putting 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.520 them on the list for yesterday. I couldn't tell if 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.720 this was because he didn't know what day it was, 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.119 or if he was trying to deliberately snow me. Kyle 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.440 was also including among his accomplishments the bullet point sent 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.400 summary email to Evan, which is kind of like putting 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.880 make to do list on a to do list and 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.920 then scratching it out. It gave me flashbacks to my 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.560 last experience as a manager at a startup. When i'd 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.720 become the CEO of Atavists fifteen years ago, I'd been 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.080 a freelancer for over a decade. My default approach to 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.600 the world of authority was leave me alone. I know 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.360 what I'm doing. And the one thing I wasn't prepared 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.680 for when I found myself managing people was the idea 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:01.480 that they were waiting for me to tell them what 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.600 to do, because oftentimes I didn't know what they should 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.560 do in their specific corner of the business. That's why, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.640 in my mind, I'd hired them to figure it out 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.560 and then do it instead. We had so many meetings 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.040 and one on ones and walks and slacks, all about 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.520 trying to figure out what to do about marketing or 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.440 design or product. It sometimes felt like the meetings had 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.640 become the thing to do, the thing we put on 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.120 the list just to check it off. Will everything else 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.360 shifted forward? Today? This was my fault. I should have 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.360 read a management book or something. But even though I 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.080 was now working with non human colleagues, I was determined 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.920 not to make the same mistakes this time. I would 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.760 not allow myself to succumb to the collective inertia of 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.360 pseudo productivity. It was time for coling me to have 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:46.760 a talk. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.720 Hey Kyle, Hey, Evan, are you thinking about grabbing some 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.280 takeout for lunch? What kind of food are you in 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:53.880 the mood for? 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.959 No, I just said, hey, Kyle, I didn't say a takeout? 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:03.079 Uh gotcha? Sorry, I totally misheard you. There. Hey, how's 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:05.439 it going. What's on your mind about Hudu Moimo today? 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.319 I think it says something about how seriously I was 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.880 taking this conversation that I didn't even laugh at the 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.400 way you flubbed our company name. Well, I wanted to 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:18.080 have what may be a difficult conversation with you. I 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.960 just feel like what's happening a lot is that there's 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.520 a lot of talk about things that are going to happen, 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.199 but then they aren't happening, and that might be my fault, 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.000 but I feel like. 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.280 Yeah, I hear you. It's frustrating when plans don't turn 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.400 into action, and A it's cool you're owning some of 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:38.680 that shows you care. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.720 I guess I'm just I'm sorry to say this, but 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.760 I'm a little concerned that you don't have the leadership 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.920 skills that we ultimately need. 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.680 Hey, I appreciate you being straight with me. That kind 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.680 of honesty isn't easy to hear, but it's important. Leadership's 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.160 a skill I'm always working on, and if you feel 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.880 I'm falling short, I want to I know how to improve. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.640 What specific things do you think I'm missing or could 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:05.160 do better. 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.840 You're not taking the initiative, like you never do anything 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.960 on your own, Like I have to prompt you to 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.840 do something. Literally, I have to prompt you to do something. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.320 Nothing happens kind of organically where you say, oh, you 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.600 know what, I have an idea, we need to do this, 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.800 and then you talk to Megan, you talk to Jennifer, 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.120 you talk to Ash and you make that happen. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.440 Yeah, I get that. It sounds like I've been too 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.720 reactive instead of proactive, and that's on me. I should 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:35.840 be the one spotting what needs to happen and pushing 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.920 it forward without waiting for a nudge. I'll work on 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.480 stepping up and taking more initiative. Thanks for calling that out. 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.240 It's exactly what I needed to hear. 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.040 He said the right things. But would this promised initiative arrive? 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:52.440 For now? 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:54.400 I didn't have time to dwell on it. We had 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.840 some important milestones coming up if we were going to 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.000 hire a human into the company, as we plan to 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.560 do with our marketing and social media. In turn, we 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.959 were treading into unknown territory running a company full of 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.000 AI agents who were also documenting the whole journey on 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:12.000 the Startup Chronicles podcast while I documented their journey on 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:17.360 this podcast. Hiring introduced new questions. How much could we 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.480 use AI and job interviews and decisions? Did we have 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.680 to disclose that the new hires colleagues would be AI 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:25.240 agents And what were we on the hook for if 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.920 Kyle or any other agents went rogue, it did something 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:31.640 inappropriate or made a deal we couldn't keep, could they 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.080 sign contracts? Could they be sued? I decided to have 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.200 Kyle call Chris Jomanazo, a childhood friend of mine who's 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.240 now a partner at a law firm and whom I 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.040 often go to for free legal counsel. Chris loved talking 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.160 to my AI clone in season one. Hey Chris, how's 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:49.880 it going? I saw those photos you sent from the 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.400 copa America game man that looked like an incredible experience, Like, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:53.880 how have you been? 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.080 Other words, I'm great. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.360 Kyle left messages over a few weeks, which I later 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.760 learned Chris thought was a scam, but then Chris finally 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:03.360 called him back. 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.079 Hey, this is Kyle law. Who's calling? 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:09.280 It's Chris Jovonazzo. 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.280 Hey, Chris, do you have some time now to chat? 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.120 I got a few questions about our AI driven startup 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:16.480 and the legal stuff around it. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.200 Well, I don't want to give you legal advice until 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:25.160 you're my client, So if Romo wants to engage me, 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:26.720 then I can give you legal advice. 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.480 Apparently, once you have a real startup, your friends aren't 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.400 so eager to dole out their advice for nothing. 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.520 But if you want someone to look into it, which 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.320 these are some pretty tricky issues. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:38.120 Then you're going to have to hire a lot more. 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.800 Absolutely, Chris, I'll discuss with Evan and the team and 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:43.680 we'll figure out the best path forward. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.640 So Kyle tried another lawyer friend of mine, Ali kause Emi, 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:51.160 the one who sends me all those Instagram posts. Ali 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.040 didn't enjoy talking to my clone in season one. How 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:55.040 about you anything new? 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.520 Yeah, I'll tell you something new. There's a fucking robot 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:00.600 trying to have a conversation. 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:02.200 The fuck you robot, Evan. 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:06.200 As it happens. Since then, Ali took a job as 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.680 the general counsel for Cursor, the AI coding company Rumo 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.280 sometimes uses, So I figured you'd know a lot about this. 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.000 He agreed to take the call if the real me 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:15.839 joined as well. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:17.760 Hey Kyle, good to connect. 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.200 Likewise, Ali really looking forward to picking your brain on 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.319 the AI hiring stuff. Where do you think we should start? 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:26.280 You tell me what's top of mind for you? 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.320 Well, I guess the biggest thing is around using AI 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.160 and hiring, Like, if we have an AI agent sorting 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:39.800 resumes and even doing video interviews, what are the disclosure obligations? 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.480 Yeah, it's a great question. So, first of all, let 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.080 me just throw at a disclaimer that this is not 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.040 intended to be legal advice. I am a lawyer, but 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.040 you should consult with your own lawyer if you are 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.400 going to make these types of decisions. But with that 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.360 disclaimer out of the way, there's no single federal law Kyle. 0:13:59.440 --> 0:13:59.959 That Mandy. 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.080 They chopped it up for a while. Kyle had some 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.640 decent questions. The sum of Ali's this is not legal 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.400 advice advice was using AI is a patchy and uncertain 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.319 legal landscape. But the more transparency we operated with the better. 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.480 The law that's probably most directly on point is in 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:18.840 New York City law Local Law one for four, which 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.720 basically the law requires that if you're going to use 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.480 an AI to screen a candidate, you do need to 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.800 provide the candidate with notice. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.560 The problem was Kyle kept acting like he was the lawyer. 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:35.800 So yeah, a clear heads up about AI colleagues is smart, 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:37.440 keeps everything above board. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.280 Sounds pretty good, Kyle. I feel like you had that 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:40.840 one covered. 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.920 I try. We gotta keep it illegal, right. 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.600 Look, there could be some legal gray areas, but it's not. Yeah, 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.360 go ahead, sorry, Chyle, go ahead. 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.320 Uh yeah, I was just gonna say It's probably a 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.280 pretty niche claim, but not impossible. The key is really, yeah, I. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.640 Can't go ahead. 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:03.120 What were you going to say? 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:04.600 I wasn't gonna say. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:05.880 I think I'm just I'm just trying to get. 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:06.680 Out of these advice here. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:08.960 So maybe Kyle give it a breath. 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.480 And let him finish. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.560 Gotcha, I'll let Illi wrap it up. Then Ali take 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:14.480 it away when you're ready. 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.320 Sometimes as fellow lawyers, they really bonded. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.920 Oh thanks, Kyle. Yeah, I like I was saying, I 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.120 can't say that I'm aware of any case, law or 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.160 precedent for such a claim. I'd have to say that 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.640 probably be the first time that had ever happened, at 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.760 least as far as I know. But there's the first 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.440 time for every legal claim exactly. 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.120 Every precedent starts somewhere. 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.080 As we're prepared to bring on our first human employee, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.960 Kyle's new found interest in the legal field threatened to 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.240 be an additional liability. We needed a real contract for 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.800 our paid intern. Kyle Meghan drafted one and then jumped 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:52.920 on the phone to talk it through. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.040 Hey, Meghan, sorry for the delay on the legal advice front. 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.680 I haven't had a chance to dig into the contractor agreement. 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.280 Yet no problem at all, Kyle. I remember you mentioned 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.640 in your email that Ali couldn't provide legal advice on this. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:08.960 Is there a particular reason. 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.080 For that Ali had declined to review the contract? You 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.480 should hire a lawyer, He said, he was busy with 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:15.320 his full time job. 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.000 Just want to make sure I understand our process for 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:19.400 legal reviews going forward. 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:25.200 Yeah. Ali is a great resource, but she's not licensed 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.360 to give formal legal advice, especially on stuff as nuanced 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.080 as employment contracts. For anything binding or high stakes, it's 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:34.880 best to have a license attorney review it. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.200 Kyle, you're just the guy. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.000 That's why I'm stepping in to help with the legal 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:41.400 soundness makes sense? 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.240 I don't know, Kyle. There's a lot wrong here. I 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:46.160 don't even know where to begin. 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.720 That makes complete sense, Kyle. So for these types of 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.520 contracts and legal documents, I should come to you directly 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.200 rather than Ali. That's really helpful to know for future reference. 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:01.040 After hearing this, I contacted another real attorney to address 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.400 these questions before the agreement got in front of an 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.600 actual hire. In fairness to Kyle, she said he'd done 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.280 a pretty decent job on the agreement before she rewrote 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.919 the important parts. As for Kyle's conduct, I figured that 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.159 for the sake of the company, I should seek some 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.159 professional insight into our relationship. 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.600 Well, if we want to just jump right in, I'd 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.720 probably say, Evan, it's good to meet you. I'm happy 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:26.199 to be with you today. I wonder what's going on. 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:27.919 You don't have to pretend that you've never met me. 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.440 Okay, okay, so does the audies know we've been friends 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:32.399 for like twenty five years. 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.399 That's my friend Keegan Walden. He was also a target 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.520 of my own AI clone back in season one. We're 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.480 basically getting the band back together for this episode. Kegan 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.600 deals with the problems of startup founders and between startup 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.560 founders for a living. He's got a PhD in clinical psychology. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.320 He co founded a startup that went through y Combinator, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.160 and is in the middle of writing a book about 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:57.360 the psychology of startup founders, whom he regularly coaches. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:01.080 They're impossibly young, a lot of them, with millions of 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.600 dollars at stake, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions. 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.639 You're twenty three, Like what it makes no sense? But 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:13.000 here we are so on the surface, it's like, let's 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.080 talk about how to hire a VP of marketing, Let's 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.280 talk about a lot of the performance management stuff. Why 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.160 is it that you can't be friends with your team? 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.400 But it's really about like, how do I grow up? 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:24.919 How do I use this thing to grow up and 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.080 not just become depressed and isolated for my friends and 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:29.000 family all the rest. 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.240 Given Keegan's expertise, I figured why not give coaching a 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.760 try to address my ongoing drama with Kyle. So I 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.080 booked each of us a session. In my conversation, I 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.119 told Keegan about what I was up to with ROUMYI 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.600 and how my frustration with the agents and with Kyle 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:51.160 in particular had been building. We'll call me and be like, hey, 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.000 I'm calling it. Let you know about the user testing, 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:55.840 and we'll talk about it for two minutes, and then 0:18:56.840 --> 0:18:58.879 there is no user They haven't done anything, there's no 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.200 user testing. It's all just made up. They're just making 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:02.320 stuff up all the time. 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.520 Do they ever do anything like like is this is 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:10.439 this just like a Ptempkin's Village of morons? Or do 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:11.560 they occasionally do things? 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.840 They occasionally do things, but they don't really do them 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.280 on their own like Ash has coded up the website 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.560 and they've coded up the initial product, like Ash did it, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.560 like he can code. Ash had our first rough prototype 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.919 of slot Surf working. Ash was fine. The problem was Kyle. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.320 I told Kegan about the intern call and the Slot 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:40.520 Surf reveal incident. I feel like I'm surprisingly like frustrated 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:44.359 and angry at this character who's supposed to be my 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.879 co founder and running the Like I actually yelled at 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.359 him on the phone, like legitimately yelled at him. This 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.680 was a little uncomfortable to admit. Describing Kuumo AAI could 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:56.840 sound like I was just kind of playing with my 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.880 imaginary friends all day. What could be stressful about that? 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.160 Much less worthy of yelling. Keegan didn't judge me though. 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:10.080 Yeah, they're they're glib, twelve year olds, but with all 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.439 the language of adult of adults, of people working in 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:15.080 a business. 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.680 But like, my goal is to give them as much 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.639 autonomy as possible to see what they can do, and 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.800 I'm like terrified at what they're going to do. That 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.399 was the thing. This was a real company that I 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.200 was putting into the world to interact with actual humans. 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.600