Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a egg Friday,
Speaker 1: Egg Frida Egg, Frida Egg Bride, Egg Lie, I'm about
Speaker 1: ready to run off of the.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's guest is Ben Cowan Duar. Ben is the developer
Speaker 2: behind Cabot, a rapidly growing golf destination company golf resort company.
Speaker 2: He started with Cabot Cape Breton up in Canada. He
Speaker 2: has since expanded with Cabot Saint Lucia, Cabot revel Stoke
Speaker 2: planned in Canada, as well as well as Cabot Citrus
Speaker 2: Farms down in Florida. So we talked a lot about
Speaker 2: how Ben got to start in the industry. I think
Speaker 2: it's a unique journey. Obviously, he's a younger guy in
Speaker 2: terms of a golf developer and an interesting story on
Speaker 2: how you become one. So, without further ado, here is Ben.
Speaker 2: All right, Ben, welcome on. You know, one of the
Speaker 2: busiest about in the golf big news obviously in the
Speaker 2: last week with Cabot Citrus Farm, which is the old Worldwoods,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure there's bigger and better plans for it,
Speaker 2: but talk a little bit about how Worldwoods came about, and.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, for me, Worldwoods was really one of
Speaker 3: the exemplars in destination golf, if you will, sort of
Speaker 3: before we talked a lot about it, and I had
Speaker 3: I had found my way there more than twenty years ago,
Speaker 3: basically just hearing about this place of a great public
Speaker 3: access golf. And obviously it opened in nineteen ninety three
Speaker 3: and Tom Fasio had done you know, rolling Oaks pine
Speaker 3: barrens and you know, a circular driving range which was
Speaker 3: extraordinarily novel at the time, and that a nine hole
Speaker 3: part three before was short course, I guess it wasn't
Speaker 3: all par threes and a three hole practice loop, and
Speaker 3: you know, a two acre putting green, and it was
Speaker 3: sort of a you know, a smortess board of golf
Speaker 3: for the public golfer, which you know predated abandoned and
Speaker 3: certainly I hadn't I hadn't yet thought of Cabot when
Speaker 3: I first went there, but was hugely inspired, you know,
Speaker 3: hugely inspired by it. And really I think the thing
Speaker 3: that for me Andy, which I've heard so many times
Speaker 3: is it didn't feel like Florida. And you know, people
Speaker 3: when they said that, we're really saying, you know, looking
Speaker 3: at a lot of elevation change and at a lot
Speaker 3: of exposed sand, and you know, had mossy oaks, and
Speaker 3: you know, and really old stately trees and and so
Speaker 3: you know, I've long loved the place and had long
Speaker 3: long hoped we could acquire it, and have tried a
Speaker 3: few times over the years, obviously unsuccessfully, until we were
Speaker 3: we were very thankful that we were able to buy
Speaker 3: it from the original developer and who had developed it
Speaker 3: with a grand vision thirty years ago, and able to
Speaker 3: take it forward today.
Speaker 4: It's got to be for you a little bit different.
Speaker 2: Obviously, you've got Cabot Saint Lucia in development, you've got
Speaker 2: Cabot Nova Scotia Cape Breton, and you know this one though,
Speaker 2: you're taking over something with existing infrastructure, So I imagine a
Speaker 2: lot of it is kind of reimagining, updating, getting it
Speaker 2: to you know, your standards with in terms of lodging,
Speaker 2: and also the golf courses, which are you know, as
Speaker 2: you said, I went there right after college, so would
Speaker 2: have been early two thousands, was the first time I'd
Speaker 2: been there and a buddy of mine.
Speaker 4: We were just amazed at the golf.
Speaker 2: You know, for somebody that hadn't at that time played
Speaker 2: a lot of golf courses around the world. You go
Speaker 2: down there and you're like, God, this is a different
Speaker 2: type of golf that I've used to seeing. And and
Speaker 2: like you said, it was really ahead of its time.
Speaker 3: Well, and I think you know, and I think you're right.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the one thing that that was
Speaker 3: always clear, I mean, it used to be pretty hard
Speaker 3: to get to too, right. It was a lot of
Speaker 3: sort of secuitest roads. And they you know at the
Speaker 3: Suncoast Parkway now going straight up from Tampa, it's forty
Speaker 3: five minutes from the Tampa airport, and so I think
Speaker 3: it's gotten easier to get to. But as you drive
Speaker 3: in there today, it's obvious that you know, in our
Speaker 3: model of building, you know, cottages, villas and hotel you know,
Speaker 3: they just never really caught all the way there on.
Speaker 3: And I think there was the obvious opportunity for us, Andy,
Speaker 3: which was, you know, if we could if we could
Speaker 3: get the golf to shine like it did when you
Speaker 3: and I first saw it, and and build accommodation, and
Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's we love the land, we
Speaker 3: love the location, and and there's quite a bit of
Speaker 3: additional land that is undeveloped. But you know, they didn't
Speaker 3: they didn't get to building the accommodation, which I think
Speaker 3: really allowed us that opportunity. I mean, I think it's
Speaker 3: existing golf and it literally is is operating operating golf today.
Speaker 3: And you know, but but Cape Breton, while you know,
Speaker 3: Mike Kaiser and I brought brought Cabot links to to life,
Speaker 3: you know, there have been previous iterations and you know
Speaker 3: a few golf course architects who had done routing plans.
Speaker 3: And similarly in Saint Lucia, it was a you know,
Speaker 3: it was a golf development that unfortunately succumb to the
Speaker 3: financial crisis. So you know, I mean, I think it's
Speaker 3: it's hard to say that the were truly original ideas
Speaker 3: because there were people thinking about golf there before. But
Speaker 3: you know, I think being able to build on places
Speaker 3: that there is infrastructure and golf is is certainly certainly
Speaker 3: a lot easier than having to cobble together all the
Speaker 3: individual parcels as we did somewhat in Cape Breton.
Speaker 2: For for those that have played the courses. You know,
Speaker 2: in terms of your plans, I've seen a few things
Speaker 2: bad around the internet. Are you guys thinking more of
Speaker 2: a restoration or more of a renovation? You know, obviously
Speaker 2: you know both those courses are. I wouldn't say they're
Speaker 2: perfect in any way, but they're they're very good public
Speaker 2: access golf courses today. You know, what, what are your
Speaker 2: thoughts on those courses are? Are you looking at you know,
Speaker 2: kind of some some tweaks, some major tweaks, or you know,
Speaker 2: just try to put them back to what they were originally?
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think that's what we're really really
Speaker 3: formulating the plan right now, and we have them to
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm sure there's lots of the lots
Speaker 3: of things bandied around the internet, and some of them
Speaker 3: might even be true. But since I haven't, since I
Speaker 3: haven't made up my mind, I know which ones are
Speaker 3: and which ones aren't, I guess, but you know, look it,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think the biggest thing that if
Speaker 3: you look at from when you first visited and when
Speaker 3: I first visited to today, what you really see is
Speaker 3: just a massive amount of tree growth, right and certainly,
Speaker 3: you know, that has has impacted everything. It's impacted the
Speaker 3: turf conditions, it's impacted the site lines, and so you know,
Speaker 3: I think, I think it's clear to us that we
Speaker 3: need to, you know, to peel back some of that.
Speaker 3: I think where there's opportunities. Such a beautiful site, you know,
Speaker 3: it's you know, part of Florida's nature coast, and you
Speaker 3: really feel it when you're out there. It feels like
Speaker 3: a real retreat to nature. And so I mean, I
Speaker 3: want to get it to a place that it's very walkable,
Speaker 3: which you know, in m times over the last over
Speaker 3: the last year, really spending a lot of time there,
Speaker 3: you rarely see anybody walk it, and it's such a
Speaker 3: great piece of ground to walk. So I think, you know,
Speaker 3: those are those are sort of the two obvious things
Speaker 3: that that we need to do. And and I think,
Speaker 3: you know, I think bring it to bring it to
Speaker 3: the market with and you know, a fresh a fresh look,
Speaker 3: and and I think it's probably I don't know where
Speaker 3: you know, and where restoration renovation meet, but it's probably
Speaker 3: somewhere in between them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's the line gets more and more blurred,
Speaker 2: seemingly every day. So it's it's so I never know
Speaker 2: what to call things that you know, there's ditig changes,
Speaker 2: but it's mostly back. It's like you you know, is
Speaker 2: it a restivation, which you know is a word I
Speaker 2: don't want to use ever, but it seems like there
Speaker 2: you go.
Speaker 3: I like it. I'm gonna I'm gonna say, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: start quoting you and saying that, so there you go.
Speaker 2: It's it's not a fun word to say, but the
Speaker 2: having I have a something that's high on my list
Speaker 2: of places to go, which is a long list, but
Speaker 2: that's high up there is is Cape Breton and to
Speaker 2: see you know, Cabot Lakes and Cabot Cliffs. But you know,
Speaker 2: seeing that I haven't been there, I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the things that I really wanted to discuss
Speaker 2: with you is is your journey as an entrepreneur, because
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the most interesting, you know,
Speaker 2: stories about you know, this, this Cabot is seemingly you know,
Speaker 2: you kind of hacked, not hacked, but worked your way
Speaker 2: into the golf space and worked your way into one
Speaker 2: of the most envious roles in the golf space as
Speaker 2: a you know, a large scale now golf developer, so
Speaker 2: I'd love to go back to to the beginning, and
Speaker 2: you know, could you describe a little bit like, you
Speaker 2: know what drove you in your mid twenties when so
Speaker 2: many people were out at the bar being idiots to
Speaker 2: attempt to build a world class golf resort.
Speaker 4: Take us back to you know what what got you there?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think I probably started a little
Speaker 3: bit earlier than that, and I was drawing golf holes
Speaker 3: at a young age, and my mom thankfully kept binders
Speaker 3: of the golf holes. But I would, you know, watch golf.
Speaker 3: I'd read about golf. I remember, you know, you may
Speaker 3: be too young, but I remember getting up at eleven
Speaker 3: thirty five on in the evening and I was allowed
Speaker 3: to as a kid, and watching the Masters highlights on
Speaker 3: CPS on Thursday and Friday, just ahead of the light show.
Speaker 3: And you know that was all you knew about the Masters.
Speaker 3: And I mean I knew, you know, I was sure
Speaker 3: at you know, eleven, I knew how every putt broke,
Speaker 3: and you know, I just loved the game. But I
Speaker 3: really loved golf courses. And so I built a golf hole.
Speaker 3: And I guess when I was maybe eleven or twelve,
Speaker 3: in our family farm, and I had a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of teas and my drawings on golf, you know, which
Speaker 3: I don't at any of the great architects who are
Speaker 3: mostly my friends. See, we're heavily inspired by you know,
Speaker 3: Pete Dye at his at his most you know, sort
Speaker 3: of do or died dramatic over water, you know, stuff
Speaker 3: a lot of split fairways and and all of those things.
Speaker 3: But so, I mean I loved I just loved golf,
Speaker 3: you know, from a young age, and that sort of
Speaker 3: got me into the business and at the beginning of
Speaker 3: the Internet, and you know, through a golf travel business,
Speaker 3: in golf marketing, I got to travel and play most
Speaker 3: most all of the world's great golf courses. And so
Speaker 3: you know, I sort of had the best job in
Speaker 3: the world. And I'd created that for myself, and that
Speaker 3: was my you know, my early twenties and so having
Speaker 3: rose colored glasses on and having seen most of the
Speaker 3: world's great places. And but I've been looking at sites
Speaker 3: for golf, as any entrepreneur with not enough money to
Speaker 3: build a golf course would be doing. And and I
Speaker 3: was at a dinner in Toronto, which is you know,
Speaker 3: his home and was home then, and I was seated
Speaker 3: next to the Minister of Tourism from Nova Scotia who
Speaker 3: was there playing the fiddle. And I was predisposed to
Speaker 3: loving Cape Bretton Island. I've been there and my wife's
Speaker 3: family for grandmother's one hundred and four and still lives
Speaker 3: in Cape Breton, so we'd been there in the summer.
Speaker 3: But he said, I know, I know, good gene. So
Speaker 3: he said, you know, look, I've got this great site
Speaker 3: for golf. And I said, Minister, honestly, every farmer I've
Speaker 3: ever met with two hundred acres since they've got the
Speaker 3: next great site for golf. And you know I was,
Speaker 3: I guess I was twenty four, And you know, he
Speaker 3: thankfully didn't think I was too much of a jerk
Speaker 3: for saying that and got the jest, but said, no,
Speaker 3: this is the real deal. And you know, Jack Jack
Speaker 3: Nicholas had done a routing plan, and you know Grand Cook,
Speaker 3: a Canadian architect, had looked at my cards and had
Speaker 3: called it one of the great sites left for golf.
Speaker 3: So again, it wasn't my original idea at all. And
Speaker 3: the town of Inverness had really thought about thought about
Speaker 3: golf as far back as nineteen sixty nine and had
Speaker 3: a very clear vision that the site was different than
Speaker 3: a mile of ocean frontage and then the town. And
Speaker 3: it was because there was this old coal mine that
Speaker 3: was you know, had been dug down three hundred feet
Speaker 3: and went a mile out under the ocean floor. And
Speaker 3: you know, so it had been obviously very hard and
Speaker 3: nobody had been able to assemble all the land. And
Speaker 3: you know, the photos he had weren't great, they're pretty,
Speaker 3: you know, they were aerials, but you got a sense
Speaker 3: that there was a mile of sand beach and a
Speaker 3: town called Inverness that was built. And I thought, in
Speaker 3: two thousand and four, where in the world are you
Speaker 3: going to get to build a links golf course in
Speaker 3: between a town and an ocean. You know, Dornic at
Speaker 3: four hundred years old and Saint Andrews a five hundre
Speaker 3: years old. You know, those towns start of grew up
Speaker 3: around the gulf. This was sort of the inverse and
Speaker 3: I just thought, seemed like, you know, the greatest idea
Speaker 3: in the history of humankind. And I went and saw
Speaker 3: it on a December day and it was a beautiful
Speaker 3: day and the sun was shining, and I could see
Speaker 3: all these golf holes and it was a really really
Speaker 3: beautiful sight. And I went back with Rod Whitman three
Speaker 3: weeks later and it was a less beautiful day and
Speaker 3: the wind was whipping and you know, Rod said he
Speaker 3: couldn't see it because his eyes were frozen shot, which
Speaker 3: was a bit of a tough way to, you know,
Speaker 3: to start, and he was he was joking too, but
Speaker 3: we got we got through those early days and then
Speaker 3: I had my first meeting, thinking it was such a
Speaker 3: great idea and was told it was the worst idea
Speaker 3: by this banker that he'd ever heard, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: and so look, I mean it was. It was a
Speaker 3: very tough land. Assembly took me about three years, and
Speaker 3: I had all sorts of ideas of how I would
Speaker 3: find enough money to build it, and you know, I
Speaker 3: called Mike and I called Mike Kaiser pretty early on
Speaker 3: after seeing it, and he was about to help abandoned
Speaker 3: trails and Barnboogle had just dumpened, and you know, he
Speaker 3: said he was long remote golf, but you know, in
Speaker 3: sort of Mike's amazing way, he said, Ben, you know, wait,
Speaker 3: you're you're going to be a huge success. And when
Speaker 3: you are, you won't be able to afford more land,
Speaker 3: so you've got to go get you know, land for
Speaker 3: the second course now. And I said, gosh, you know, Mike,
Speaker 3: you know pretty young, I don't have enough money to
Speaker 3: build the first course. I don't think I would need
Speaker 3: to go longer on real estate. And he said, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: you got to do it. So while we were assembling
Speaker 3: all of the pieces that made up cab At Links,
Speaker 3: we started to, you know, look to the land at
Speaker 3: Cabot Cliffs and I think, you know, Mike, and Mike,
Speaker 3: like so many people, probably thought it was a long
Speaker 3: shot that I would be able to assemble the land,
Speaker 3: which thankfully I didn't, you know, in my naivety, I
Speaker 3: didn't know it would be so hard. But I had
Speaker 3: time and you know, and a little bit of persistence,
Speaker 3: and as it became clear I would yet the land,
Speaker 3: I circled back to Mike because there was really no
Speaker 3: one else, I mean everybody else. When I'd talk about
Speaker 3: plans of walking only in Links golf, you know, they
Speaker 3: had visions of cart paths and you know, green checkerboard fairways.
Speaker 3: So you know, Mike none of that stuff. Obviously, He's
Speaker 3: like well of courses walking only like you know what
Speaker 3: idiot would do anything else he would miss at that.
Speaker 3: But you know, basically his tone would have been and so,
Speaker 3: you know, I think I think he just got everything
Speaker 3: I was. I was sort of envisioning and and look,
Speaker 3: I mean, who who better? I mean, aside from having
Speaker 3: done bandon and and you know, sort of the obvious,
Speaker 3: the father of remote destination golf. He really, you know,
Speaker 3: he really was just an amazing exemplar and and you know,
Speaker 3: a wonderful you know, friend, partner, teacher, all of the
Speaker 3: all the things you could ever hope for. So and so,
Speaker 3: if I am in an enviable position today, it's it's
Speaker 3: a lot of dumb luck and uh and more Mike
Speaker 3: Guyser than anything else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're downplaying yourself. You know, It's something
Speaker 2: that resonates with me as the you know, the people
Speaker 2: I used to work for a tech startup that was
Speaker 2: funded by Mark Andrewson and Ben Horowitz, who are you know,
Speaker 2: renowned in the tech community, you know, arguably the most
Speaker 2: successful venture capital fund in the world. And Ben Horowitz
Speaker 2: gave a talk at our office one day, and you know,
Speaker 2: he told our group that they don't invest in any
Speaker 2: idea that at least one of their partners doesn't say
Speaker 2: is the worst idea in the world. Because if everybody
Speaker 2: says it's a great idea, somebody's tried and failed. So
Speaker 2: it's interesting because that's something that I think is smart.
Speaker 2: When I think back to be starting the Fried Egg,
Speaker 2: I was a horrible writer, horrible public speaker, and I
Speaker 2: started a business that centered around that.
Speaker 4: That was a dumb idea.
Speaker 2: Most people would say that's idiotic, but it takes you know,
Speaker 2: that's what it takes to start something and do something different.
Speaker 2: I'd love to go back a little bit and talk
Speaker 2: about the land. So you hear about this land, You
Speaker 2: go to the land, you see it, you bring around
Speaker 2: whitman out who owned the land? Were there different owners
Speaker 2: of different parcels? How did you put it together? And
Speaker 2: were there any you know, any crazy stories like who
Speaker 2: were the people that owned this land? Obviously it's an
Speaker 2: old mining town. There had to be some interesting deals
Speaker 2: in that process.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know, look, there were there were
Speaker 3: an awful lot of land transactions in between links and cliffs,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think there's there's more than forty
Speaker 3: forty parcels of land that we acquired. But I think
Speaker 3: the thing, you know, again back to the idea of
Speaker 3: golf not being not being an original one of mine.
Speaker 3: And in Burness, the thing that was amazing on that
Speaker 3: first day, Andy was I went and I was met
Speaker 3: by a group of a group of men and you
Speaker 3: know who had really fostered this dream. And again when
Speaker 3: they had been told it was insane, it would never work,
Speaker 3: a golf course would never work. You know, they were
Speaker 3: told to build a three star golf course. I didn't
Speaker 3: really know what that meant, but you know, like they
Speaker 3: sort of had, you know, they'd been through the ringer
Speaker 3: and they'd had their hopes, you know, rise and fall
Speaker 3: so many times. And these were all volunteers in the community.
Speaker 3: It was, know, and the dentist in town, the superintendent
Speaker 3: of education, principle, you know, just people who had grown
Speaker 3: up in their community. And you can imagine a vibrant
Speaker 3: mining community one hundred years ago that had a population
Speaker 3: far greater than the town you know was when I
Speaker 3: arrived there, that had sort of lost its economic engine,
Speaker 3: you know, fifty years ago. It would have been easy
Speaker 3: to be skeptical in particularly because they felt like they'd
Speaker 3: been on the cusp of success so many times, you know,
Speaker 3: So they were not just supportive of the vision. They
Speaker 3: had really had the vision that this could be transformative
Speaker 3: and a transformed economic engine. And I think had it
Speaker 3: not been that, it wouldn't have been possible. So they
Speaker 3: and they were members of the Invernest Development Association, which
Speaker 3: owned a couple of parcels the province of Nova Scotia
Speaker 3: and some of the land at the municipality of Inverness,
Speaker 3: and there were two businesses that own the land and
Speaker 3: so but you know, it really was the bulk of
Speaker 3: it was largely controlled by this by this group, the
Speaker 3: Internet Development Association, and led by these town fathers who
Speaker 3: just had a vision that they needed an economic engine.
Speaker 3: And my, my sort of if I have one piece
Speaker 3: of wonderment looking back on it, you know, seventeen years later,
Speaker 3: it's that we, you know, we were able to assemble
Speaker 3: that ocean frontage and and give you know, Rod and
Speaker 3: then laterally Bill and Ben and at Cabot Cliffs the
Speaker 3: chance to you know, to build golf on the sea
Speaker 3: and in a wonderful community. And and I think when
Speaker 3: you know, there's absolutely no no doubt in my mind
Speaker 3: that when Mike agreed to partner and that was announced.
Speaker 3: I think you know that the town fathers would have
Speaker 3: thought their prayers had been answered. And then obviously the
Speaker 3: great to the Great financial crisis of eight you know,
Speaker 3: sort of threatened to derail us. But we persisted through
Speaker 3: that and then opened and had had some early success
Speaker 3: and built on that with clifts and opened the Nastar
Speaker 3: Part three last summer, and you know, keep trying to
Speaker 3: come up with fun things to do there.
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Speaker 2: fried egg no spaces with I imagine, obviously, Mike Kaiser,
Speaker 2: as you've alluded to a couple of times, coming on,
Speaker 2: was was kind of like your high water mark or
Speaker 2: in the early where you Okay, this is gonna work.
Speaker 2: Was there a point when you were really in the process,
Speaker 2: you had already poured so much time, energy effort into it,
Speaker 2: where you were where the opposite was, oh, this isn't
Speaker 2: going to work. And it might have been, you know,
Speaker 2: a point where you look back so many times and think, God,
Speaker 2: if this hadn't happened or that hadn't happened, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, and now you laugh about it, but at
Speaker 2: the time it probably occupied your brain for weeks that end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was every moment before Mike agreed
Speaker 3: to do it. It was probably the answer to that. But
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, you know, look from when I
Speaker 3: saw it that first time, to come into an agreement
Speaker 3: with Mike and closing on the land, you know, it
Speaker 3: was it was three years. I mean, you know, it
Speaker 3: was three years of my life. And and it wasn't
Speaker 3: like there were you know, it wasn't sort of your
Speaker 3: your VC thing of five or six people were saying
Speaker 3: it was a good idea, and there's one, I mean,
Speaker 3: everybody was saying, like, this is a really bad idea.
Speaker 3: And you know, and I think I had a wonderful
Speaker 3: a wonderful girlfriend at the time who became my wife,
Speaker 3: and she was extraordinarily supportive and said, like, I think
Speaker 3: you can do it. And I have two wonderful parents
Speaker 3: who both kept telling me, like, you're onto something, keep
Speaker 3: on it. And so I blamed the three of them
Speaker 3: probably for everything that transpired after that. But I mean,
Speaker 3: it was a very very very tough three years and
Speaker 3: I'd had a relatively successful you know, venture as an
Speaker 3: entrepreneur and sort of the golf travel space and the
Speaker 3: golf marketing space. But I was taking every penny I
Speaker 3: was making out of that business and plowing it into
Speaker 3: this idea in Cape Brighton Island. And I would say,
Speaker 3: and you know, there was and I think from an
Speaker 3: entrepreneurial standpoint, and you would identify with it, as would
Speaker 3: anybody who's been through that. But I think there's a
Speaker 3: lot of fear, ince off loathing. And you know, seventeen
Speaker 3: years later, it's an overnight success and you know, we
Speaker 3: get to do things like this podcast. But you know,
Speaker 3: in those early days, and you know, if somebody had
Speaker 3: offered me a small sum of money to take over
Speaker 3: the project, I probably would have said yes. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, I was passionate about doing it. But it's
Speaker 3: like if somebody or and or Mike had said, like, look,
Speaker 3: you know, I'll buy you out of your position and
Speaker 3: I'll do it. I'm Mike Kayser, I've dunebanded dunes. You
Speaker 3: know what, do I need a pip squeak from Canada
Speaker 3: to help me? You know, I'd have said great, because
Speaker 3: I would have wanted to see the project go forward.
Speaker 3: And I think that piece people probably haven't been on
Speaker 3: an entrepreneurial journey really missed, which is there's still a
Speaker 3: lot of you know, fear and self loathing even after
Speaker 3: you you know, even after you have success and after
Speaker 3: we built links and you know, and built cliffs. I mean,
Speaker 3: I bought an industrial service business, and I was, you know,
Speaker 3: half thinking that that would be my only foray in golf,
Speaker 3: and I'd go into industrial service. And you know, I
Speaker 3: had a great, great, great, great Canadian entrepreneur and you know,
Speaker 3: Mike's would look at me funny when I talk about
Speaker 3: this other business, you know, but he was pretty quiet
Speaker 3: and pretty patient. And this other guy said, so, you know,
Speaker 3: you think he can build one of the best industrial
Speaker 3: service businesses in the world. And it was like, oh
Speaker 3: my goodness. Now, I mean, we're number three in Atlantic
Speaker 3: Canada and m abible to get to number two. And
Speaker 3: he said so, He's like, so you built two of
Speaker 3: the best golf courses in the world, and now you're
Speaker 3: happy being number three in a you know, in a
Speaker 3: relatively small market. So he was probably a bit a
Speaker 3: bit firmer with his fingers in my stern. I'm saying like, look,
Speaker 3: do you not love what you do, And I said,
Speaker 3: I love what I do. But but yeah, I know
Speaker 3: it's been it's been remarkably fun. And I'm sure I
Speaker 3: couldn't get a job if I wanted to, so I'll
Speaker 3: just keep doing this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the thing you hit the heights and
Speaker 2: lows entrepreneurship one day, I mean even within the same day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the greatest idea ever.
Speaker 2: Later, like an hour and a half later, you could
Speaker 2: be like if somebody offered me five hundred dollars to
Speaker 2: get rid of this thing right now. You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's unbelievable, you know, the swigs of emotion that can
Speaker 2: happen in such short periods of time, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: like it probably takes years off of your life.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: With Rod Whitman, obviously he he's got quite a resume.
Speaker 2: He had quite a resume before doing cab at Links.
Speaker 2: But you know for Americans, you know, they might not
Speaker 2: be familiar with Rod Whitman. Was it was he just
Speaker 2: a slam dunk hire? Obviously you're Canadian. He's a big
Speaker 2: Canadian architect. You know you had him out three weeks
Speaker 2: after Was he always the guy that you wanted to
Speaker 2: build the first course.
Speaker 3: Yeah he was. And you know I played golf with
Speaker 3: Rod and September ninth of two thousand and one, and
Speaker 3: so you know, I guess I was twenty two years
Speaker 3: old and my dad and I were playing golf through
Speaker 3: we'd been to Bamp and Jasper, and I'd always wanted
Speaker 3: to see this course Rod had done called Wolf Creek,
Speaker 3: which I've never seen. And I, you know, I loved
Speaker 3: Pete Dye and loved his work, and you know, I'd
Speaker 3: sought it out a lot in my travels, and so
Speaker 3: you know, and I knew what Pete had said about Rod,
Speaker 3: and you know, and and you know what he told me,
Speaker 3: and you know, and how much Bill talked about Rod,
Speaker 3: and and so you know, I would have I would
Speaker 3: have known, in a very loose term, you know, in
Speaker 3: sort of air quotes known Tom Doak and and Bill
Speaker 3: Koor a little bit at that point. But you know,
Speaker 3: I was really focused on Rod, and you know, and
Speaker 3: I think it was his The quality of his work
Speaker 3: was so good. And you know, and you listened to
Speaker 3: Bill and Ben talk about his contributions, you know, whether
Speaker 3: it was to Friar's Head or or any number of
Speaker 3: other projects or Pete talk about you know, what he
Speaker 3: had done at you know, Austin Country Club or or onward.
Speaker 3: And so you know, I sort of knew there was
Speaker 3: something special. And Rod is you know, one of the
Speaker 3: wonderful and one of the wonderful characters you'd get to meet,
Speaker 3: but very quiet, and you know, the absolute opposite of
Speaker 3: a of a promoter. And you know, and look, I think,
Speaker 3: and there's lots of lots of great golf architects who
Speaker 3: are great promoters, and lots of you know, promoters who
Speaker 3: aren't great golf architects. And you know, and Rod was
Speaker 3: just a great golf course builder and who really didn't
Speaker 3: focus on selling himself. And and we've worked together on
Speaker 3: a number of projects now and it's just one of
Speaker 3: the great joys of my life. But in both standing
Speaker 3: on Cabot Links, I only thought of him, and standing
Speaker 3: on Cabot Rebelstoke, I called him from the site the
Speaker 3: first day I was there, about two hours in, I said,
Speaker 3: I've got something I want you to come up like,
Speaker 3: you know the next day. And and then he's obviously
Speaker 3: built the built the par three for us with Dave Axelan,
Speaker 3: who he's now formed a partnership with and Dave had
Speaker 3: been a part of building Cabot Links, Cabot Cliffs, the Nests,
Speaker 3: the par three and you know, Dave was down in
Speaker 3: Saint Luci in the early days. So, you know, another
Speaker 3: unbelievable character, an unbelievable piece of the you know, sort
Speaker 3: of the fabric that you realize to be able to
Speaker 3: accomplish the things we're trying to accomplish, we needed, we
Speaker 3: needed amazing people like that to do it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm something that I'm interested a little bit, and
Speaker 2: I've gotten more interested been thinking about the last couple
Speaker 2: of weeks. A lot is the the role of developer
Speaker 2: in creating golf architecture. Obviously, everybody that loves golf architecture
Speaker 2: likes to think of it as an art form. And
Speaker 2: I'm I'm interested because you're you're the one that looks
Speaker 2: at it from a business standpoint, you know, and you
Speaker 2: have the golf architects who you hire, you know, who
Speaker 2: are creating art. And you look at other other industries, right,
Speaker 2: and you know, the best music is usually produced when
Speaker 2: the band's in a garage by themselves doing it. The
Speaker 2: best art is done by you know, the poor artists
Speaker 2: that is in their you know, studio, apartment and wherever
Speaker 2: they are, you know, by themselves making it. And I'm
Speaker 2: I'm interested. You know, golf architecture is an art form.
Speaker 2: Is is really different than most because these these artists
Speaker 2: don't get to create their their art forms in solitude
Speaker 2: by themselves. They do it in in tangent and in
Speaker 2: concert with a developer in almost every case, or a membership.
Speaker 2: So talk a little bit about your approach to working
Speaker 2: with these golf architects.
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, it's a really interesting point.
Speaker 3: And I you know, I do think you know Andy
Speaker 3: Warhol's you know line about business is the greatest art
Speaker 3: or something to that effect. You know, I think there's
Speaker 3: an intersection. I don't think they have to be you know,
Speaker 3: competing forces, and I think being able to and you know,
Speaker 3: being able to look at it through a business lens
Speaker 3: and you know, and some people would say maybe I
Speaker 3: wasn't a very good developer and some of the decisions
Speaker 3: I made, but you know, I think the best thing
Speaker 3: we could do was give them the biggest canvas to
Speaker 3: be able to do the art. And so rather than
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm not saying we were we were right,
Speaker 3: and you know past plans were wrong. But you know,
Speaker 3: you might have seen a plan that had a clubhouse
Speaker 3: on the ocean, which meant you had to have an
Speaker 3: entry road, you know, come down to the ocean, and
Speaker 3: that would have meant you would have had golf play
Speaker 3: around the clubhouse, you know, basically behind And I guess
Speaker 3: my view was, you know, look, there were so many
Speaker 3: wonderful places that you could draw inspiration from where it was.
Speaker 3: If we pull all of the buildings and you know
Speaker 3: that's our clubhouse and you know, our lodge at Cabot
Speaker 3: and the villas to the top of the property, everybody
Speaker 3: would have a view looking across the golf course out
Speaker 3: at the ocean. And if we put you know, building
Speaker 3: right on the beach, you know, you see the service
Speaker 3: trucks and the parking lot and you play behind it
Speaker 3: and your view would be of the ocean. But I
Speaker 3: didn't think it would be a better view. So and
Speaker 3: I think similarly in Saint Lucia, you know, we had
Speaker 3: seen plans that had where we have golf holes at homes,
Speaker 3: and any real estate developer would tell you that, you know,
Speaker 3: that was valuable land that we let Bill and Ben
Speaker 3: build nine greens on the ocean. But I think you know,
Speaker 3: my interest and the intersection I hope of the business
Speaker 3: in the art is is to be able to let
Speaker 3: them build the best golf course they can and then
Speaker 3: you know, we can figure out a business model around that.
Speaker 3: And and I think you know, certainly, I bet Rod
Speaker 3: and Bill, Ben would all wish they worked in solitude
Speaker 3: rather than with me lots of days. But I guess
Speaker 3: we've done a couple with each of them now, so
Speaker 3: they must not must not bother them too much. But
Speaker 3: you know, I think, and what I know without a
Speaker 3: shadow of doubt, is I would not be able to
Speaker 3: route a golf course. And you know, to the level
Speaker 3: that I've watched Bill Kohor and Rod do it, I
Speaker 3: would not be able to do the tie ins and
Speaker 3: and you know sort of the little subtle ripples and
Speaker 3: you know, rumples that sort of cause so much delight.
Speaker 3: I have played an awful lot of the world's great
Speaker 3: courses and have not been accused of being shy with
Speaker 3: my opinions. So certainly there's lots of things along the
Speaker 3: way that I'll say, what about this, or how about this,
Speaker 3: or you know, but I think ultimately they are the
Speaker 3: artists and they hold the brush and I marvel at it,
Speaker 3: and I think the only thing. You know, Mike told
Speaker 3: me this. We were having dinner at Pebble Beach after
Speaker 3: your Links and Cliffs had opened, and you know, we
Speaker 3: both long admired Pebble and you know, I was saying,
Speaker 3: it's so funny. The process of doing it is so
Speaker 3: much more fun than I thought it would be. And
Speaker 3: I would have thought the process of like we've got
Speaker 3: a golf course and now we get to play it,
Speaker 3: like you know, as a kid, I thought like that'll
Speaker 3: be the greatest day of your life. And you know,
Speaker 3: and Mike, as he's done so many times before, sort
Speaker 3: of you know, he said, we'll stand on the first team.
Speaker 3: We won't play on opening day and and you know
Speaker 3: the joy I get from doing and it's really special
Speaker 3: to be able to do Revelstoke with Rod all these
Speaker 3: years later, to do Saint Lucia with Bill and Ben,
Speaker 3: and you know, we were down, and we were down
Speaker 3: with a month ago, but you know, down a few
Speaker 3: months ago, Mike built Ben and I was just the
Speaker 3: four of us, and you know, we're walking around at
Speaker 3: Saint Lucia and as a kid, you know, I grew
Speaker 3: up loving the Mastress, as I said, you know, loving
Speaker 3: Ben Crenshaw and you know, and sort of all things golf,
Speaker 3: and so it was easy, you know, in the busyness
Speaker 3: of Cabot Cliffs for that, you know, I was getting
Speaker 3: to build a golf course with Bill Koor, Ben Prench
Speaker 3: on Mike Kaiser, and you know, sometimes it was sort
Speaker 3: of like you're focused on Okay, we got to get
Speaker 3: it done, and we got a budget, and there's all
Speaker 3: these things, and so you know, I think, I think
Speaker 3: walking around with Mike and Bill and Ben and May,
Speaker 3: I sort of, you know, was acutely aware of just
Speaker 3: how fortunate I've been, not just to you know, chase
Speaker 3: a dream and get to do it every day. And
Speaker 3: you know, I think doing what you love with people
Speaker 3: you love doing it with is the greatest luxury in
Speaker 3: one's life. And I certainly have that. But I think
Speaker 3: to watch, you know, to watch people who you may
Speaker 3: you may agree, and I certainly think of we're going
Speaker 3: to work with some of the grand masters, not just
Speaker 3: of this generation but of all time. And and you know,
Speaker 3: so the best thing you can do is is not
Speaker 3: alienate them too much and give them a good canvas
Speaker 3: to work well.
Speaker 2: But you know I appreciate the time. This is uh,
Speaker 2: this is gonna be part one. Well we'll do part
Speaker 2: two at some point, maybe part three, but we've barely
Speaker 2: touched on half the topics that I wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think, you know, I'm excited to
Speaker 2: see so your work. Excited to see all the new developments.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think, uh golf is in a
Speaker 2: better place because of you know, the work that you're
Speaker 2: doing and the you know, bringing new great golf to
Speaker 2: new destinations.
Speaker 3: Well, it's there's nothing nothing I can do. It's more fun.
Speaker 3: And as I said, I won't get a job doing
Speaker 3: anything else anyway, So we'll keep keep at it. And
Speaker 3: and you know I love seeing love seeing your success
Speaker 3: and cheering from the cheap seats here. So keep up
Speaker 3: good work and thrilled to do to do a second
Speaker 3: part anything.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to another edition of the Frida
Speaker 2: Egg Podcast. Today's episode was edited by the wonderful Meg Atkins.
Speaker 4: Thank you Meg.
Speaker 2: As a quick reminder, we've got golf season ramping up,
Speaker 2: we've got the waste management, everybody's focused on the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2: You know you got Super Bowl picks going in. I
Speaker 2: don't know who I'm rooting for, but now is the
Speaker 2: best time.
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