1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: I'm Dessa, the disembodied lady voice of deeply human Why 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: we do the things we do? We're about to set 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: off on an episode of deja vu? Why do we 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: get it? And how could it help you better understand 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: the workings of your own mind. I I don't remember 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: the first time, but I remember when they started happening 7 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: really frequently. I would be in math class or something 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: and suddenly everything would feel kind of off, like I 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: don't know, if you know, this feeling in your gut 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: that something's just wrong. I think I was probably fourteen, 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: and I started getting them on maybe a daily basis 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: by the time I was sixteen, a daily basis. Mm hm, 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: can you describe, like, if I met you at fourteen, 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: what's your vibe? You know? Do you have like pink hair? 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Do you have like thick glasses? What's the vibe? Um? 16 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Just picture Avril Levine. It's a little bit cringe e 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: but a bit of a skater girl, you know. So 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: that means like dark eyeliner. Did your mama you wear eyeliner? 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: She did? Yeah, straightened hair, dark eyeliner, band, T shirt. 20 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: I start to feel kind of fearful and have the 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: sense of dread, and I start to feel really sick 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: to my stomach, and it starts building like there's there's 23 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,839 Speaker 1: something that's going to take hold of me, and um, 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: I really don't want it to, so I try to 25 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: focus on what's going on around me, but it starts 26 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: invading my head more and more, and then it I 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: get to this point where it feels like everything that's 28 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: currently happening has already happened. And then it sort of 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: feels as though I can remember the history of the universe. 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Of course I couldn't give any details of what that 31 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: even meant, but at the time, I like it, fully 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: convinced that that's what I'm feeling. I can remember everything 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: that's ever happened and everything that will ever happen, and 34 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: it's all tied together, and there's this like extreme sense 35 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: of oneness with the universe, which is also quite sickening. 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: And then it's gone. And if I had been, you know, 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: sitting beside you in math class and I looked over 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: at you during one of these experiences, what would I see, Like, 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: what was your body doing, what was your face doing? 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 1: I mostly wouldn't show it. Sometimes I would like put 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: my head in my hands, and they're like, oh I 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: feel sick. I'd say to my friends all the time, like, oh, 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: I have deja vu. It's just the worst. And I 44 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: thought like maybe I was just really poorly adjusted to 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: it and everyone else could handle this much better. Okay, 46 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: So for years Anna is suffering from these debilitating episodes 47 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: of deja vu, and she assumes that's normal, Like, that's 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: just what being a person feels like. Deja vu is 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: French were already seen and most of us know. It 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: is the eerie feeling that you've lived this very moment already, 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: but usually it isn't so intense that it jettisons you 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: to the edge of I'm in space. If you're like me, 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: the standard response to deja vu is to start tugging 54 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: on your friend's sleeve to announce I have davu. Hey, 55 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: I need everyone here to acknowledge that I am deja 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: vuing right now. But it's a solitary experience. You can't 57 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: share it. You can't even articulate the moment without sounding 58 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: like a palm reader in a panic attack. I knew 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: you were going to say that deja vu doesn't happen 60 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: too often, which I think is why I sort of 61 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: like it. It's an exotic condition of mind, like getting 62 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: an egg with two yolks or something. It's also one 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: of the few occasions where you're acutely aware of your 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: own perception at work. It's like getting to taste your 65 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: own tongue, or that bit that David Foster Wallace does 66 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: about the fishes where the old fish asks the young 67 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: fish how's the water, and the young fish says, what 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: the hell is water? Are there any dumb jokes that 69 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,119 Speaker 1: you have to endure? Like as soon as you tell 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: someone you're a day's researchers? Ever, like, however that before 71 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: all the time? That's and clearly she's a professor of 72 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: cognitive psychology or cogsi if you are both a snowboarder 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: and a PhD student. Years ago, and and her colleagues 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: designed a series of ambitious experiments. We were attempting to 75 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: induce stay Chevoo through virtual reality. How do you even 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: start to do that? I would spend hours and hours 77 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: playing the SIMS basically at my house on a laptop 78 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: in the lab. I'd close my eyes to go to sleep, 79 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: and I'd be dreaming about moving objects around within the 80 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: SIMS to create environments, because so Anne is building an 81 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: experimental laboratory inside the game, the sims when you create 82 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: the characters and design the surrounding the possibility got it, 83 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: That sims that weirdly successful video game, where you pretend 84 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: to be a person in a universe that's just like ours, 85 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: you can actually create entire neighborhoods. She builds an aquarium, 86 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: she builds a museum, She builds courtyards and residential structures. 87 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: She's on a construction spree, and although these spaces look different, 88 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: some of them are built on identical floor plans, with 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: major features in exactly the same places, Like a desk 90 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: is in exactly the same position is a bed is 91 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: in another scene. Let's say An sends a bunch of 92 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: people into this virtual neighborhood. She hands them a pair 93 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: of goggles, revs up the stems, and now her research 94 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: subjects can look all around the universe she's built, just 95 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: by turning their heads. She hypothesized that visiting places that 96 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: looked really different but had identical floor plans might induce 97 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: deja vu by triggering what's called a memory retrieval failure. 98 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: A memory retrieval failure is exactly what it sounds like 99 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: you've got a bit of info and storage, but you 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: can't fish it out for reference. It's like the search 101 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: function in my email. Sometimes it just can't find minutes 102 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: from Tuesday's meeting, even though they're in an email tie 103 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: minutes from Tuesday's meeting. So let's say you're all goggled 104 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: up in Anne's virtual world. If you visit the Bowling Alley, 105 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: you might get the sense, oh, this feels familiar, but 106 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: your recall might not pull up the fact that, uh, 107 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: this Bowling Alley is laid out just like the museum. 108 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: So you've got this inexplicable sense of having been here 109 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: before and bang deja vu and calls this digital universe, 110 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: wait for it, deja ville. This stuff about memory retrieval 111 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: failure is bigger than just deja vu. Sometimes it happens 112 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: in a really common phenomenon called the it's the um. 113 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: It's a feeling of being right on the verge of 114 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: accessing a word from memory. You feel pretty confident that 115 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: it's there, and it's it's right about to come to mind, 116 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: but it's not quite there yet. The tip of the 117 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: tongue thing, thank you, Anne, thank you. This is crazy 118 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: when you think about it like there's a memory I 119 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: can't access, but I know exactly where it is. It's 120 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: always almost here. Ant's work is based on this fallibility 121 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: of recall, the fact that our memories don't always come 122 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: when called. But there are other ways to understand deja vu. 123 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: And for all the time that an spends trying to 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: induce it, some people are desperately looking for help to 125 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: get out of it. I started my deja research while 126 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: I was in the memory clinic, and this man came 127 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: in to have his memory tested, and he had a 128 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: very unusual complaint because he said that he had already 129 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: been tested before, which was pretty strange because most people, 130 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: if they've been to a memory clinic before, they've tended 131 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: to forget about it. But he was complaining that he 132 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: had already done it before. That's Chris Moulin. He's a 133 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: researcher and a cognitive neuropsychologist, which means he studies the 134 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: structures of the brain to better understand how we think. 135 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: He's talking here about one of his seminal patients, a KP. 136 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: Taking a walk in the street. He would see the 137 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: same bird singing the same song in the same tree 138 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: every day, and he stopped watching the television because he 139 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: said he had seen it before. He stopped reading the 140 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: newspaper because he had already read it all. And his 141 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: wife was saying that, Yeah, this is typical of him. 142 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: He does this all the time. Chris's work with a 143 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: KP led him to other patients with similar symptoms. We 144 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: presented in the scientific literature a young man who had 145 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: a history of anxiety, some substance use, and he was 146 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: stuck in what he described as like a Donnie Darko 147 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: time loop. He was acutely aware, and he said he 148 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: had to really spend a long time reasoning with himself 149 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: that life wasn't repeating and that he wasn't going mad. 150 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: I remember driving four hours to meet with a patient 151 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: just had two emails with her daughter we've not met before, 152 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: and I turn up and she opens the door and 153 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: she greets me like she she knows me. Chris understands 154 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: deja vu to be caused by a glitch in the 155 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: memory system, where the feeling of recalling a memory becomes 156 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: disassociated from the act of actually doing it. According to Chris, 157 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: we can have the strong sensation of remembering something even 158 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: when there's no memory there like pushing a needle through 159 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: fabric feels like sewing, even if I've gotten no thread. 160 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: The glitch account of deja vu is very different from 161 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the idea behind Anne's Deja Ville, where we've got a 162 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: memory we just can't retrieve. But I'm gonna tell you 163 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: right now, this is not a show where we picked 164 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: to deja vu scientists against each other to fight to 165 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: the death like post dot gladiators in the colosseum of 166 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: my podcast Let's keep It, Let's keep it classy for 167 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: the record, and thinks that some deja vu might be 168 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: caused by glitches too. Okay, a lot of the memory 169 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: patients that chris se'es are older, some suffering from the NHA. 170 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: Brain scans have revealed some subtle atrophy in particular regions 171 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: of their brains in the frontal lobes and the temporal 172 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: lobes at the side of the skull. So just to 173 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: get like the the anatomy right, you know, So if 174 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm sitting right now with my my index finger against 175 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: the spot on my skull that's right above my right ear, 176 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: how deep would I sink that finger until I hit 177 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: the region that we're talking about, Like first knuckle, second knuckle, Okay, 178 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: so it would be your second knuckle. The memory center 179 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: is tucked into the very middle, so you're almost going 180 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: right into the center of the space between your ears. 181 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: But it's not like there's a discreete little memory cottage 182 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: in your brain. Apart from all the rest, there's a 183 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: complex set of interlocking parts, and understanding healthy memory function 184 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: could allow Chris and his colleagues to better serve people 185 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: who come looking for help who are really suffering. Chris 186 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 1: thinks deja vu might provide real insight into just how 187 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: this system works in normal circumstances during like regular vo 188 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: deja vu is just another one of the kind of 189 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: quirks of memory that helps us understand what the memory 190 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: system is. Not only is there kind of memory performance, 191 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: memory function, but there is also the relationship we have 192 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: with that memory. The beliefs about memory, the feelings about memory. 193 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 1: They're relatively automatic and they don't usually go wrong, but 194 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: when they go wrong, they are They are strange, striking experiences, 195 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: and the people who contact me are often in great distress. 196 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: My second year in college was the first time I 197 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: fully lost consciousness, and it happened like maybe two or 198 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: three times during college. Um, and I mean one time 199 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: was really scary because I had twisted my ankle while 200 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: walking down one step and the next thing I know, like, 201 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 1: I wake up on the ground. One of my friends 202 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: is standing over me, completely panicked. She said that my 203 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: eyes rolled into the back of my head and I 204 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: was shaking. It actually took until grad school for me 205 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: to realize truly that these things weren't just how some 206 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: people experienced deja voo. And I just remember talking to 207 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: my boyfriend about it because I had just lost consciousness 208 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: during class and it was very embarrassing, and I was saying, oh, yeah, 209 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: I get that feeling, you know with deja vu, where 210 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: you feel this kind of oneness and it's really sickening 211 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: and scary. And he was like, what he's got to 212 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. 213 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: So maybe a couple of hours later, I pull out 214 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: my phone and I'm like, there's no way and the 215 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: only one who experiences this, you know, what did you Google? 216 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: I put in I think like nausea, deja vu and fainting, 217 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: clicked search and it was like epilepsy, epilepsy, brain tumors, epilepsy, 218 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: neurological disorders, and it's like, oh my god, I needed 219 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: to get an m r I in case I had 220 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: a brain tumor and needed to get an e G. 221 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: So it went from like zero to sixty on how 222 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: severe doctors perceived this as being for my e G. 223 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: I had to stay up all night. I guess your 224 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: brain is more prone to seizures or whatever disorders are 225 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: lurking there when you're low on sleep. I stayed up 226 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: all night watching The Fresh Prince of bel Air because 227 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: I love that show. Now, this is a story all 228 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: about how my life got swip turns upside down, and 229 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: I'd like to take so I did one of those, 230 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: and they saw some weird stuff going on in my 231 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,959 Speaker 1: temporal lobe. Um. So, when I finally went to see 232 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: an actual neurologist and talked with her about it and 233 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, this is definitely temporal lobe epilepsy, 234 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: it it was like, that's good. That's good to just know. 235 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: In temporal lobe epilepsy, deja vu can actually be part 236 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: of the seizure, sometimes called an aura. For some people, 237 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: deja vu can serve as a storm warning that things 238 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: are about to get much much worse. Of course, deja 239 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: vu isn't always linked to epilepsy, but for a lot 240 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: of people, it is linked to feelings of precognition, the 241 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: ability to predict the future. We had hypothesized that maybe 242 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: people can, and maybe there's a scientific explanation for why. 243 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: And seriously, what are you talking about. If you've been 244 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: through a situation that's very much like the current situation, 245 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: maybe you do know exactly how it's going to unfold 246 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: because you've been through it before and you're just forgetting 247 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: or you've been through something very similar. And so we 248 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: had hypothesized that if we could somehow put people in 249 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: the middle of a memory, so to speak. So here 250 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: and changes her protocol this time when you put on 251 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: the goggles instead of turning your head and looking around 252 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: deja Ville. She's cued up several little videos, like virtual 253 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: tours that maneuver through the places she's built. Let's say 254 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: you enter the bowling Alley and then you go left, 255 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: and then you go right, when you hit the first 256 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: wall and you go left, and you go right one 257 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: more time, and subjects watch a bunch of these virtual 258 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,239 Speaker 1: tours through all sorts of different places, and some tours 259 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: go through spaces with identical layouts following exactly the same route, 260 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: a fact that Anne hopes her subjects won't consciously realize, 261 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: but that might trigger deja vu. This bowling alley is 262 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: laid out just like the museum. And now here's the 263 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: moment of truth because Anne pauses one of these videos 264 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: in the middle of the route, right before it's about 265 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: to take a turn, and she asks her subjects if 266 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: they're feeling deja vu at the moment, and if so, 267 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: do they have that I can predict the future feeling? 268 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you know the direction of the 269 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: next turn? And some people said, yes, I do have 270 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: deja vu? Yes, I do feel like I know what's 271 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: going to happen next. This tour is going left, man left, 272 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: let's unpause the thing and let's go left already. So 273 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: when an unpaused it, were they correct? We were really bombed. Actually, 274 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: the first time we ran the experiment, we found no 275 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: predictive ability at all. This poses a new question. If 276 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: people aren't actually able to foresee the future during deja vu, 277 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: why do they have such a strong impression that they 278 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: can well during a deja vu episode in regular life? 279 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: Like the action doesn't stop to allow us to test 280 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: our predictions. The tape just keeps running, so we're never 281 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: confronted by any evidence to disprove that overwhelm feeling of 282 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: I knew that would happen and thinks deja voo doesn't 283 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: allow us to make predictions. It's actually something called postdiction, 284 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: and it gives an illusion of having predicted after the 285 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: fact is there was some tension. You know, when you're 286 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: talking to somebody, there has to be who's like, yo, 287 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: I am clairvoyant and I have predicted the future, and 288 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: I bet they're not going to drop that easily. When 289 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, actually, it just feels like you can 290 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: predict a few like that is not a satisfying response. No, 291 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: people people hate it. Um. I commonly hear from members 292 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: of the public that I'm wrong, that deja vu is 293 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: not a memory phenomenon. And when I started publishing work 294 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: on dejavoo being associated with illusory feelings of prediction, of course, 295 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: people started to push back at that to say, no, 296 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: when I feel like I can predict, I actually do predict, 297 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: and it's not just a feeling still and says it 298 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: is just a feeling. She sure because she tested for 299 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: exactly that. But anyone who's had it knows how real 300 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: DejaVu can feel. It descends like like a little private 301 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: tornado to lift you out of your everyday perceived continuum 302 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: of time and space. Do you ever get like the 303 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: pedestrian run of the mill version of dejava? I don't 304 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: think i'd recognize it, Like, I think I would just 305 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: dismiss it as so ordinary that I wouldn't even think 306 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: twice about, oh, this is real deja vu? Do you 307 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: think that you know this history of having profound and 308 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: unpleasant dejavue experiences shaped your personality in any way a 309 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: little bit? Um. I got really into philosophy when I 310 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: was a teenager, and I think that was pretty much 311 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: mostly due to these seizures that I had. I remember 312 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: reading different philosophers who talked about everyone experiences the world 313 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 1: very differently, and that rang true to me because I 314 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: was like, I think the way that other people experience 315 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: like deja vu is very different from me. The idea 316 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: that people experience consciousness differently, I think that fascinates a 317 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: lot of us. Like if I could test drive someone 318 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: else's mind trade consciousness is for a day, would it 319 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: feel disorienting like driving on the left, or would it 320 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: feel like trying to drive a baked potato or trying 321 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: to drive yellow? Could I even recognize it as a 322 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: mind and find all the pedals to make it go? Oh? Yeah? 323 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: Can I ask, like, what do you what do you 324 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: do for a living now? Oh? I'm a PhD student 325 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: of astrophysics. Okay, dang dude. Do you think that your 326 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: experiences of deja vu might feel like the experiences of 327 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: astronauts when they look at the world through the window 328 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: and it's just conceptualizes how how small a place in 329 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: the universe that they occupy. Yeah, that's a really great 330 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 1: way of thinking of it. I mean with astrophysics, it's 331 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: sort of like we are looking at the universe without us. 332 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: It's like seeing something outside of of how you normally 333 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: experience it, very far away. If you could rewrite your life, 334 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: would you write these deja vu experiences out of it? No? 335 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't think so. These episodes felt like they cut 336 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: to the heart of existence. A lot of how I 337 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: understand the world comes from, like the way that I 338 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: sort of experienced time. In these seizures, you're you're seeing 339 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: the passage of time. We don't get to experience time directly, 340 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: don't have a dedicated sense organ for it, and I 341 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: think that's why even the occasional deja vu is sort 342 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: of thrilling, because it brings our sensation of time to 343 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: the four. We get a moment where we can really 344 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: feel it moving around us. Usually time is just the 345 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: invisible substrate that we maneuver through. We're like the fish 346 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: asking what's water, But of course I can see what's 347 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: in the bowl that holds the goldfish. Maybe on I 348 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: can see the bowl full of time that's holding me, 349 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: And that's deeply human on deja vu a sensation we 350 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: can experience in grade school, but takes a doctorate degree 351 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: to begin to explain. Our next stop on deeply Human 352 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: is a terminal. The topic is death and why it's 353 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: time to talk about yours. There's been lots of conversations 354 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: around this idea of a good death. I've never been 355 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: big on that terminology because then it suggests there's a 356 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: bad death. Once you start to create expectations around dying, 357 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: people can start to feel like they're doing it wrong. 358 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: And that's always been one of my big concerns with 359 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: a lot of the discussions around death and dying in 360 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: all different kinds of facets society, which has been going 361 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 1: on for like the last twenty years. It's never not 362 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: been a hot topic as it were. But I think 363 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: that what happens is families, and usually families more than 364 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: the dying, but sometimes the dying they can feel like 365 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: they're doing it wrong. Deeply Human is a co production 366 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: of the BBC World Service and American Public Media with 367 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Media and it's spoken into a microphone by Medessa. 368 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: See you next question.