1 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:17,900 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everyone. I'm Elisa Donovan, host of Killer Thriller, 3 00:00:18,020 --> 00:00:22,099 Speaker 1: and I'm joined by my Killer Thriller docu-co-host, Jennifer Fessler. 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: Hello, my girl. 5 00:00:23,860 --> 00:00:24,860 Speaker 1: Good morning. 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:25,460 Speaker 2: Good morning. 7 00:00:26,390 --> 00:00:30,090 Speaker 1: So today, we are diving into the Lindsay Clancy case, 8 00:00:30,450 --> 00:00:35,510 Speaker 1: as is everyone else. This horrifying and tragic case of 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,970 Speaker 1: a mother on trial for killing her three young children 10 00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:42,610 Speaker 1: ages five three and eight months now this is a 11 00:00:42,670 --> 00:00:45,630 Speaker 1: case that's become it's just impossible to look away from 12 00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:49,510 Speaker 1: in part because there are such profoundly difficult questions at 13 00:00:49,570 --> 00:00:54,100 Speaker 1: its center was lindsey suffering from a severe mental illness 14 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: that left her unable to understand the wrongfulness of what 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,570 Speaker 1: she was doing Or was she mentally ill but still 16 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:05,350 Speaker 1: criminally responsible for her actions? And her case has captivated 17 00:01:05,390 --> 00:01:09,709 Speaker 1: people far beyond Massachusetts, and it's ignited a much larger 18 00:01:09,790 --> 00:01:16,510 Speaker 1: conversation about postpartum psychosis, criminal responsibility, and whether mothers in 19 00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:19,570 Speaker 1: crisis are getting the help that they need before it's 20 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:20,030 Speaker 1: too late. 21 00:01:20,050 --> 00:01:20,190 Speaker 2: So.... 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,540 Speaker 1: You know, there are very few cases where the facts 23 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: of what happened aren't really the question. 24 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:31,220 Speaker 2: That is true. 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 3: But I know that there are so many people who 26 00:01:35,620 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 3: are doubting the facts in terms of, you know, whether 27 00:01:39,540 --> 00:01:42,559 Speaker 3: or not Lindsay actually did it, whether it was Patrick. 28 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,340 Speaker 2: I do not subscribe to that. 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:45,610 Speaker 1: No, neither do I. 30 00:01:45,860 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 2: Not for one minute. But so there is no disputing. 31 00:01:50,890 --> 00:01:51,630 Speaker 2: those facts. 32 00:01:52,090 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: Um, yeah, this is a really difficult, uh, for me, 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,620 Speaker 3: it's a difficult case because I am back and forth 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: in terms of how I feel about it. I, I 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,059 Speaker 3: feel like Elisa, you, you're pretty sure of how you feel. 36 00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:09,390 Speaker 1: Well, I think clearly based on the fact that the, 37 00:02:09,710 --> 00:02:12,550 Speaker 1: the jury is deadlocked and they went to the judge 38 00:02:12,570 --> 00:02:14,889 Speaker 1: and said, we are deadlocked. We cannot make a decision. 39 00:02:14,910 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: And then he sent them back to deliberate further. And 40 00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:22,250 Speaker 1: it's my understanding they're only allowed to do that twice. 41 00:02:22,889 --> 00:02:27,550 Speaker 1: So they are deliberating again. We are recording this the 42 00:02:27,590 --> 00:02:31,620 Speaker 1: day before this will go up. So they are back deliberating. 43 00:02:31,660 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: But I think that most people, certainly the jury, feel 44 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:40,220 Speaker 1: as you do that it's a somewhat impossible thing to 45 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:45,740 Speaker 1: really decide and commit to because it covers so many 46 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:51,430 Speaker 1: things that You know, certainly postpartum depression and women's health 47 00:02:51,470 --> 00:02:54,930 Speaker 1: care and all of those things are at the forefront. 48 00:02:55,750 --> 00:03:01,100 Speaker 1: But then it's also just... It's just impossible to sort of. 49 00:03:02,660 --> 00:03:02,980 Speaker 2: I feel. 50 00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:07,260 Speaker 1: Okay, yes. My feeling is this woman does not belong 51 00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:12,980 Speaker 1: in a jail cell with just basic hardcore criminals. She 52 00:03:13,060 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: simply does not. She belongs in... someplace where she will 53 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:24,510 Speaker 1: get very, very lengthy care, but she doesn't belong in 54 00:03:24,570 --> 00:03:24,910 Speaker 1: a jail. 55 00:03:25,690 --> 00:03:30,290 Speaker 3: So yeah, I, I tend to agree with you. Um, 56 00:03:30,510 --> 00:03:33,690 Speaker 3: I have talked to, as you have so many people 57 00:03:33,780 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 3: that feel completely differently and I'm not sure if what 58 00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:43,020 Speaker 3: I'm feeling and thinking is the right thing. And I have, um, 59 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:48,450 Speaker 3: I did a live Instagram last night with someone who 60 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:51,690 Speaker 3: is so adamant that she knew what she was doing 61 00:03:52,710 --> 00:03:54,810 Speaker 3: and she should go to jail for the rest of 62 00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:55,190 Speaker 3: her life. 63 00:03:55,270 --> 00:04:01,110 Speaker 2: She's a monster. And I heard her, I tried to 64 00:04:01,150 --> 00:04:04,030 Speaker 2: at least, right. And I really did hear her points. 65 00:04:04,410 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: So she was saying that what, that, that this is 66 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,940 Speaker 1: like a terrible person who wanted to murder her children. 67 00:04:10,810 --> 00:04:13,930 Speaker 3: In her mind, yes, that she was a terrible person 68 00:04:15,410 --> 00:04:18,630 Speaker 3: and that it was deliberate. And I don't know that 69 00:04:18,670 --> 00:04:22,630 Speaker 3: she thinks it had nothing to do with postpartum psychosis 70 00:04:22,670 --> 00:04:26,430 Speaker 3: or depression. One of her many points, and we've spoken 71 00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:31,830 Speaker 3: about this, is that a lot of perpetrators of violent 72 00:04:31,890 --> 00:04:38,510 Speaker 3: crimes are mentally ill. And where is that line drawn, right? 73 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: I think you and I had spoken offline about, I 74 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:47,219 Speaker 3: sent you a text about this woman, Constance Fisher, who 75 00:04:47,660 --> 00:04:51,710 Speaker 3: killed her three kids in 1954 and spent several years 76 00:04:51,750 --> 00:04:54,850 Speaker 3: in a mental institution and was released to kill, had 77 00:04:54,890 --> 00:04:58,550 Speaker 3: three more kids and killed them in 1966. And she 78 00:04:58,570 --> 00:05:01,430 Speaker 3: went to the mental institution. She actually drowned her kids, 79 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: suffered from anxiety and depression and was abnormally worried about 80 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 3: her kids all the time. 81 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,099 Speaker 2: She attempted suicide. 82 00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:14,860 Speaker 3: And so got out and did it again. I'm not, 83 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: this is just what I've been reading about. 84 00:05:18,339 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: But that all of those things have very, very clear 85 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:28,589 Speaker 1: parallels to elements of Lindsay Clancy's case. And in the 86 00:05:28,630 --> 00:05:33,450 Speaker 1: fifties in particular, no one was talking about this. Nobody 87 00:05:33,510 --> 00:05:38,110 Speaker 1: was giving five minutes to to women's feelings about any 88 00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:40,910 Speaker 1: of these things. It was, it was utterly disregarded. So 89 00:05:41,070 --> 00:05:42,630 Speaker 1: she had no help. 90 00:05:43,070 --> 00:05:43,310 Speaker 2: Yes. 91 00:05:43,450 --> 00:05:45,430 Speaker 3: But she was in an asylum and she got out 92 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: and did it again. That was sort of more the, 93 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:51,950 Speaker 3: the point. And I'm not at all saying that Lindsay 94 00:05:52,470 --> 00:05:54,550 Speaker 3: is going to ever do this again. I have watched 95 00:05:54,570 --> 00:05:57,710 Speaker 3: her as you have during this trial. And to me, 96 00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:02,550 Speaker 3: she seems as distraught as someone. Yes. Right. 97 00:06:02,970 --> 00:06:03,250 Speaker 2: Yes. 98 00:06:03,630 --> 00:06:08,550 Speaker 3: But, um, There are those who say, why does she 99 00:06:08,589 --> 00:06:11,070 Speaker 3: even care? Why does she want to get off? Why 100 00:06:11,089 --> 00:06:13,589 Speaker 3: doesn't she want to go to the darkest corner of 101 00:06:14,350 --> 00:06:16,750 Speaker 3: a penitentiary and die there? I don't know how to 102 00:06:16,830 --> 00:06:17,930 Speaker 3: answer that question. 103 00:06:17,950 --> 00:06:23,420 Speaker 1: I think she has said she wished that her attempt 104 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,260 Speaker 1: at taking her own life was successful. 105 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: Right. 106 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:28,670 Speaker 1: I think that there is no, like we said before, 107 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:32,090 Speaker 1: there's no happy ending for this woman. 108 00:06:32,350 --> 00:06:34,190 Speaker 3: No, and I have said that, and you have said that, 109 00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:35,750 Speaker 3: and I've heard that said time and time again, and 110 00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:36,850 Speaker 3: I really do agree with that. 111 00:06:36,870 --> 00:06:38,510 Speaker 2: There are those who would say, what do you mean? 112 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:40,859 Speaker 3: If she gets off and she continues to live her 113 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,980 Speaker 3: life and she has one happy day, even that's not fair, right? 114 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:51,980 Speaker 3: So I'm coming at this from the perspective, primarily I'm 115 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,669 Speaker 3: with you and with those who feel terrible that, that 116 00:06:57,230 --> 00:07:00,789 Speaker 3: this has happened that obviously, but, but don't feel like 117 00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:03,130 Speaker 3: she deserves to spend the rest of her life in jail. 118 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: I'm also hearing things that I cannot deny. And when 119 00:07:07,339 --> 00:07:09,260 Speaker 3: I do think as so many of us about the 120 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,900 Speaker 3: way in which she murdered her kids, something else. 121 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: Takes over in me. Right. 122 00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: Like if I can actually, I know that I get, 123 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: then the rage comes up and I am like, you 124 00:07:21,020 --> 00:07:21,340 Speaker 3: know what? 125 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,340 Speaker 2: Who cares? Put her away. I don't, it doesn't. 126 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:24,700 Speaker 1: Yeah. 127 00:07:25,930 --> 00:07:31,670 Speaker 3: And I know that that's, that lacks compassion, but there are, 128 00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:37,210 Speaker 3: do we have compassion for so many murderers that are 129 00:07:37,250 --> 00:07:39,010 Speaker 3: put away for the rest of their lives? People that 130 00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:42,030 Speaker 3: are hurt people, hurt people. And, you know, people that 131 00:07:42,050 --> 00:07:47,570 Speaker 3: grow up being abused and tortured and assaulted. And so, 132 00:07:47,950 --> 00:07:49,750 Speaker 3: and then they do the same thing. And where's the 133 00:07:49,770 --> 00:07:52,410 Speaker 3: compassion there? I don't know the answers to these very 134 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:53,190 Speaker 3: deep questions. 135 00:07:53,810 --> 00:07:55,790 Speaker 1: I think this is at the heart of it. How 136 00:07:56,010 --> 00:08:01,010 Speaker 1: do we balance empathy and accountability? In particular, when we're 137 00:08:01,130 --> 00:08:04,870 Speaker 1: talking about it in the legal system. And I think 138 00:08:05,090 --> 00:08:08,310 Speaker 1: these jurors, first of all, take it back to Reddington, 139 00:08:08,350 --> 00:08:12,510 Speaker 1: who is continually amazing. Did you listen to his closing argument? 140 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:13,230 Speaker 3: I did. 141 00:08:14,690 --> 00:08:18,630 Speaker 1: So good. And the service that these people are doing, 142 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:24,390 Speaker 1: and I really appreciate how he mentioned jurors take all 143 00:08:24,410 --> 00:08:27,570 Speaker 1: of this home with them. They have seen these grisly photos, 144 00:08:27,770 --> 00:08:33,500 Speaker 1: listened to horrific testimony, detailed things that he, again, I 145 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,620 Speaker 1: appreciate how he really has said much of that was 146 00:08:37,660 --> 00:08:41,610 Speaker 1: gratuitous and unnecessary. Like the prosecution kept going back to 147 00:08:41,750 --> 00:08:42,420 Speaker 1: all of these things. 148 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:45,670 Speaker 3: Pulling out the exercise bands just to show them all 149 00:08:45,690 --> 00:08:46,270 Speaker 3: of that. Yes. 150 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,189 Speaker 2: The bow in her hair, in the prosecutor's hair. 151 00:08:49,210 --> 00:08:49,530 Speaker 1: Right. 152 00:08:50,090 --> 00:08:50,489 Speaker 2: All of that. 153 00:08:50,550 --> 00:08:50,750 Speaker 1: Right. 154 00:08:50,790 --> 00:08:50,969 Speaker 2: Yes. 155 00:08:52,130 --> 00:08:57,890 Speaker 1: It's, it's, it's, disturbing to say the least but this 156 00:08:57,970 --> 00:08:59,750 Speaker 1: is really like the heart of the question and i 157 00:08:59,809 --> 00:09:03,770 Speaker 1: think these people are you know this is a a 158 00:09:04,429 --> 00:09:08,060 Speaker 1: woman's life which is always the case of course when 159 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:10,900 Speaker 1: you're on a jury that is about murder. 160 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:12,300 Speaker 2: I would not want to be on this jury by 161 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,500 Speaker 2: the way no way. 162 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:17,420 Speaker 1: No and then they're saying if they are deadlocked again 163 00:09:17,610 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: where it becomes a mistrial you know, there's concern about 164 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:23,140 Speaker 1: there are people that are going to maybe really want 165 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,620 Speaker 1: to be on this jury, you know, and try like, 166 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: it just, it starts to get so muddy. 167 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: I will tell you that like, like two of my 168 00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:31,610 Speaker 3: friends who feel that she should just be put away 169 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,170 Speaker 3: and they both said, Oh, I would love to. 170 00:09:34,150 --> 00:09:34,810 Speaker 2: Be on this jury. 171 00:09:35,110 --> 00:09:35,429 Speaker 3: Oh, right. 172 00:09:35,450 --> 00:09:36,110 Speaker 1: That's what I mean. 173 00:09:36,390 --> 00:09:39,950 Speaker 3: Yes. And I can't think of anything I'd want to 174 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:43,809 Speaker 3: do less than have to determine the fate of this woman. 175 00:09:44,290 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: I just, and I, you know, deadlocked is, is interesting. 176 00:09:48,580 --> 00:09:52,770 Speaker 1: So, Yeah, does it mean that it could be one person, right? 177 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: Because it has to be unanimous. So it could be 178 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,459 Speaker 1: one person who is has an opposing feeling right it 179 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like half of them or something. 180 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 3: And I yeah I wonder and I also wonder deadlocked 181 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 3: are they do they all feel passionately about it like 182 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: I wonder how um are there members of the jury 183 00:10:13,140 --> 00:10:17,209 Speaker 3: who you know feel like she's guilty she should go 184 00:10:17,290 --> 00:10:20,390 Speaker 3: away to a mental institution for life. And then there 185 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:23,929 Speaker 3: are some that say she should, she's not be acquitted. 186 00:10:24,050 --> 00:10:25,030 Speaker 3: And then those that say she. 187 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:28,810 Speaker 1: I know. Cause there are so many options for them. 188 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:31,860 Speaker 1: It isn't just guilty or not guilty. There are four different, 189 00:10:32,050 --> 00:10:35,819 Speaker 1: I think four or five choices that they have, which 190 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: could be just, you know, mind boggling. 191 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: Oh, did you know this? 192 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,820 Speaker 3: I thought this was interesting that the same doctor in 193 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,819 Speaker 3: the Andrea Yates case, was defended Lindsay Clancy. 194 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: Oh no, I didn't know that. 195 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:57,540 Speaker 2: Yeah. I just found that out. Yeah. I'm going to 196 00:10:57,580 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: tell you. 197 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:01,540 Speaker 1: So did they both, did she treat both of them? 198 00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:03,070 Speaker 2: No. 199 00:11:03,250 --> 00:11:07,089 Speaker 1: Or she's just giving professional opinion. 200 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:09,130 Speaker 2: Professional opinion. 201 00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:16,190 Speaker 3: And so Andrea was convicted and then retried and then released. 202 00:11:15,950 --> 00:11:18,100 Speaker 2: Into an asylum. Right. Yeah. 203 00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:18,859 Speaker 1: Yes. I think. 204 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: Yes. 205 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:25,380 Speaker 3: Yes. And similar symptoms, similar outreach on her. Like she 206 00:11:26,179 --> 00:11:27,780 Speaker 3: tried to Dr. Philip Resnick. 207 00:11:27,929 --> 00:11:29,930 Speaker 2: Okay. So yeah. 208 00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:33,329 Speaker 3: And she, and she tried and tried and tried to 209 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:37,270 Speaker 3: get help as well before she drowned her five children. 210 00:11:37,290 --> 00:11:42,250 Speaker 3: And then, right. So she went to trial and there 211 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: was some evidence that was presented. 212 00:11:44,020 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: That wasn't true. That's how she got, the appeal and 213 00:11:48,179 --> 00:11:51,429 Speaker 2: ended up in sanity. 214 00:11:52,510 --> 00:11:55,130 Speaker 1: I mean, I do have the question of why was 215 00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:59,929 Speaker 1: Lindsay indicted in the first place when the family has, 216 00:12:01,330 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, seemingly forgiven her and stated that they don't 217 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:06,260 Speaker 1: want her in this. 218 00:12:06,980 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: I think in a murder case and in other cases, 219 00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:14,300 Speaker 3: I believe the state is the final decider in that. Right. 220 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: It just seems so like sad. Okay, only had to 221 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,300 Speaker 1: find probable cause that she committed the murders. 222 00:12:23,260 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 3: Should postpartum psychosis be treated differently by the criminal justice 223 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:30,490 Speaker 3: system than other forms of severe mental illness, I think 224 00:12:30,570 --> 00:12:32,490 Speaker 3: is a lot of. 225 00:12:32,390 --> 00:12:34,490 Speaker 1: What is at the heart of this. 226 00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:37,310 Speaker 2: And I don't know the answer. I don't either. 227 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,700 Speaker 1: So when it's posed that way, I really do have 228 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: conflicting feelings about it. But I just can't get past 229 00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:48,980 Speaker 1: this thing. And I don't know, is it because I'm 230 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:51,590 Speaker 1: a woman? Is it because I'm a mother? You know, 231 00:12:51,610 --> 00:12:58,130 Speaker 1: that I can imagine how horrible, like how you could 232 00:12:58,150 --> 00:13:03,110 Speaker 1: ever get to that point. I don't. So I'm eternally 233 00:13:03,270 --> 00:13:11,900 Speaker 1: empathetic to that. I am forever. fiercely against this over-medication 234 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,540 Speaker 1: of our society. And that is from personal experience. Again, 235 00:13:18,590 --> 00:13:23,090 Speaker 1: this is, again, my personal opinion. They don't agree with 236 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:26,449 Speaker 1: me whenever I've had surgery, having meds. It doesn't work. 237 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:29,430 Speaker 1: I do not believe in it. And I'm an Eastern 238 00:13:29,490 --> 00:13:34,890 Speaker 1: medicine person. An acupuncturist has been my primary doctor for 239 00:13:34,910 --> 00:13:39,820 Speaker 1: 30-something years. And I'm not saying I'm against traditional Western medicine. 240 00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:45,540 Speaker 1: I certainly am not. But this over-medication and just doling 241 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: out pills, it's because the pharmaceutical companies run so much 242 00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:55,300 Speaker 1: of this country. And there is so much invested in 243 00:13:55,340 --> 00:14:02,830 Speaker 1: that that we have to go back to paying attention 244 00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:10,550 Speaker 1: to actual care. healthcare, not just doling out medications. I mean, 245 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,780 Speaker 1: this woman was over medicated. 246 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,859 Speaker 2: Well, also where's the regulation there? There's who is in 247 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:16,420 Speaker 2: charge of it. 248 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 3: I am a proponent of medication, not all medications all 249 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 3: the time, but I, there have been medications that I 250 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 3: feel have saved my life. I struggled with anxiety and 251 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,500 Speaker 3: depression and I've been in therapy for years and years 252 00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: and years. And I am, um, I do feel as 253 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: if my life is better because of medications. 254 00:14:41,820 --> 00:14:45,900 Speaker 1: And I would guess that you had or have still 255 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,730 Speaker 1: a great doctor and a great psychiatrist and a person 256 00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:53,670 Speaker 1: who is actually caring for you. 257 00:14:53,710 --> 00:14:56,590 Speaker 2: And I'm also not in the middle of psychosis. I'm 258 00:14:56,630 --> 00:15:00,290 Speaker 2: not postpartum. My choices that I'm making, I think, are 259 00:15:00,310 --> 00:15:05,710 Speaker 2: more sane choices. in general, right? Because I'm not in 260 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:07,820 Speaker 2: the middle of those episodes. 261 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: And yes, I have a great doctor and yes, my 262 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,060 Speaker 3: medications are regulated and I can't just, I don't just 263 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 3: go to one, get something, decide myself it doesn't work. 264 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,150 Speaker 3: Let's say not titrate off of it, go get something else. 265 00:15:22,270 --> 00:15:25,510 Speaker 3: I mean, there's, I don't, that's not what I do, thankfully, 266 00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:29,500 Speaker 3: but yes, I think medications are given out easily, I 267 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: think there needs to be more oversight, right? 268 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: Like, yes. 269 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: And I don't, again, I don't have solutions for this stuff. 270 00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:39,310 Speaker 3: I just, I think that that's part of the problem. 271 00:15:39,830 --> 00:15:41,490 Speaker 1: I think that is part of the problem. And that's what, 272 00:15:41,570 --> 00:15:45,930 Speaker 1: you know, this whole thing is just prompted a groundswell 273 00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:50,790 Speaker 1: of outrage about the barriers that women face when seeking care. And, 274 00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:55,100 Speaker 1: you know, this is, I was at my daughter's orthodontist 275 00:15:55,140 --> 00:16:00,190 Speaker 1: appointment yesterday and I was Texting with you all about 276 00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:02,370 Speaker 1: this on the way there. And then I get into 277 00:16:02,390 --> 00:16:07,210 Speaker 1: the office and I talk to the insurance financial person 278 00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:11,350 Speaker 1: in terms of what's covered and what isn't. And she 279 00:16:11,390 --> 00:16:15,130 Speaker 1: starts talking about Lindsay Clancy. And she's speaking about it 280 00:16:15,330 --> 00:16:18,290 Speaker 1: as a woman. That was the first thing that we 281 00:16:18,390 --> 00:16:22,260 Speaker 1: talked about and how painful this is, etc., But then 282 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: she said, I'm also looking at it from the legal 283 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: medical insurance standpoint. And she said, I'm always saying to 284 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: my people, when you write something in someone's file, you 285 00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:36,420 Speaker 1: have to think about this could come out in court 286 00:16:36,540 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: one day. Is what you are saying true? And is 287 00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:43,590 Speaker 1: it unbiased? And is it like all those things? So 288 00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:48,070 Speaker 1: the case is really, it covers so much. 289 00:16:48,270 --> 00:16:48,770 Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh. 290 00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: Well, what about... Making these doctors liable. 291 00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 3: So for instance, and we've spoken of her before, Jennifer Tufts, 292 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: who I think it was 14 times that she met 293 00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: with Lindsay online. 294 00:17:02,380 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 2: And Kevin Reddington was like, did you ever say to her, 295 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 2: you should come in? 296 00:17:06,859 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: You should come in. 297 00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: Did you ever say to her? 298 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,700 Speaker 3: Because I know from my own personal experience, my doctor 299 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: wants me to come in every once in a while, 300 00:17:16,140 --> 00:17:18,619 Speaker 3: but all summer I haven't. It's just so much easier 301 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:19,740 Speaker 3: to do therapy online. 302 00:17:20,130 --> 00:17:20,790 Speaker 1: Yeah. 303 00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:22,369 Speaker 2: You know, then to drive. 304 00:17:22,950 --> 00:17:24,790 Speaker 1: And sometimes we can't. Right. 305 00:17:25,150 --> 00:17:25,370 Speaker 3: Right. 306 00:17:25,390 --> 00:17:28,220 Speaker 1: My therapist is in L.A. I live in San Francisco. Now, 307 00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: she has known me for over 30 years. 308 00:17:31,859 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: Right. 309 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: And, you know, 20 of those of which were in person. 310 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,900 Speaker 2: Yes. Me too. Right. 311 00:17:40,609 --> 00:17:43,709 Speaker 3: So, yes, this person did not know her. Did she 312 00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:46,830 Speaker 3: drop the ball? How much of this can be blamed 313 00:17:47,010 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 3: on some of these doctors? Right. And I can't imagine, again, 314 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 3: that they're criminally liable. But did they fuck it up 315 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:57,070 Speaker 3: by not saying to this woman who was so desperate? 316 00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:03,609 Speaker 1: I don't understand. I think the doctor was, Jennifer Tufts, 317 00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the one who prescribed medication. So whoever was prescribing this 318 00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: multitude of medications that this woman was trying to managed 319 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: as evidenced by her journal entries, you know, that to 320 00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:27,669 Speaker 1: me seems insane. So her treating psychiatrist, she was her 321 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:32,550 Speaker 1: treating psychiatrist for four months beginning in September of 2022. 322 00:18:32,550 --> 00:18:35,470 Speaker 2: She was also brand new, right? Out of a residency. 323 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:37,630 Speaker 2: It's not like she had. 324 00:18:37,310 --> 00:18:40,330 Speaker 1: A lot of experience with this interest in this. 325 00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:42,490 Speaker 3: I think she, I think Kevin Reddington said on her, 326 00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:46,340 Speaker 3: on her website, it said she may be, maybe it 327 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: didn't say specialized in, but had a lot of interest 328 00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 3: in women's health in postpartum. 329 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 1: So, you know, geez, can you imagine, can you imagine 330 00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: being that being her where she's like, okay, I just 331 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: want to start with this and this is what happens. 332 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,980 Speaker 2: Can't worry about her. We have too much to worry about, 333 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:08,460 Speaker 2: but yes. 334 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 335 00:19:09,460 --> 00:19:12,690 Speaker 1: She'd been practicing since August. So essentially a month. 336 00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: Right. Imagine having to live with that. Oh, and she 337 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,580 Speaker 3: met with her a day before the killings. So met 338 00:19:18,619 --> 00:19:23,740 Speaker 3: with her a day before. And again, I'm not trying 339 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,510 Speaker 3: to place blame on this doctor, but imagine having to 340 00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:27,290 Speaker 3: live with that. 341 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:46,330 Speaker 1: Yes. How much did you really know about postpartum psychosis 342 00:19:46,609 --> 00:19:47,130 Speaker 1: before this? 343 00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 3: Postpartum depression was certainly more Yes. That's the verbiage that 344 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,820 Speaker 3: I use for this. Right. And I know that it's 345 00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 3: serious and I know that women suffer with it and 346 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,790 Speaker 3: women that I know have suffered with it. 347 00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:01,570 Speaker 1: I don't know that much. 348 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:03,310 Speaker 2: I didn't know that much about psychosis. 349 00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:06,510 Speaker 3: You know, I, I didn't, but I mean, I guess 350 00:20:06,550 --> 00:20:08,410 Speaker 3: it wasn't when I heard it, it wasn't, it wasn't 351 00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:09,609 Speaker 3: like I couldn't understand it. 352 00:20:09,609 --> 00:20:10,510 Speaker 2: I mean, there's right. 353 00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: There was a, It just seems like the kind of 354 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:17,330 Speaker 1: next phase of postpartum depression. 355 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:18,210 Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. 356 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:21,550 Speaker 1: Because I think there isn't any one that, you know, 357 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:30,210 Speaker 1: people would say, I was so lucky that I didn't 358 00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:34,830 Speaker 1: have postpartum depression and I had a relatively easy birth 359 00:20:34,850 --> 00:20:38,250 Speaker 1: and all these things. That's what people would say about me, 360 00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: meaning that's what they witnessed. That is not how I felt. Really? 361 00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:47,900 Speaker 1: And I didn't have severe, thank goodness. I did not 362 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:50,449 Speaker 1: have any severe, I did not have psychosis or any 363 00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:55,910 Speaker 1: of those things. But I had real extended periods where 364 00:20:56,010 --> 00:20:59,060 Speaker 1: I felt like, I don't know if I can do this. 365 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can. This is so hard. 366 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:07,140 Speaker 1: And I am weeping on my kitchen floor. And everybody's like, 367 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: Lisa's amazing. She just bounced right back. Oh, even her body. 368 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:12,580 Speaker 3: Look it. 369 00:21:12,619 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: She just looks fine. And it's like, nobody knows what's 370 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,550 Speaker 1: really going on. So I think maybe that's why I 371 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,010 Speaker 1: also feel so empathetic for this woman. While I, again, 372 00:21:25,470 --> 00:21:28,670 Speaker 1: was not even remotely close to where this woman got, 373 00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:33,700 Speaker 1: I just can't. I can imagine it. And it's awful. 374 00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: Well, I didn't have postpartum per se, but I did, 375 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,330 Speaker 3: as soon as I got pregnant with my son, I 376 00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:44,590 Speaker 3: did it differently with my daughter. I was on Prozac 377 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:45,290 Speaker 3: and I stopped it. 378 00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:46,929 Speaker 2: Boom. As soon as I found out I was on 379 00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:47,370 Speaker 2: it and I stopped. 380 00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:47,950 Speaker 3: Oh, wow. 381 00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:48,330 Speaker 1: Really? 382 00:21:48,350 --> 00:21:50,169 Speaker 3: But you're really not supposed to, right? You're supposed to 383 00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:54,300 Speaker 3: titrate off of it. And I, because I just couldn't 384 00:21:54,660 --> 00:21:57,379 Speaker 3: imagine to me, I didn't, God forbid that it would 385 00:21:57,420 --> 00:22:00,020 Speaker 3: get into the baby's bloodstream or whatever else. And doctors 386 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,139 Speaker 3: will tell you that's not the way it's supposed to go. 387 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: And that's not the way it goes, but I did. 388 00:22:03,619 --> 00:22:06,939 Speaker 3: I completely made my own decision to stop cold Turkey. 389 00:22:07,619 --> 00:22:13,430 Speaker 3: And I was in a ball crying, scared, hysterical. I 390 00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:15,770 Speaker 3: remember I went once with my husband to Whole Foods 391 00:22:16,570 --> 00:22:18,570 Speaker 3: and I ate a piece of cheese, a sample or whatever. 392 00:22:18,869 --> 00:22:19,929 Speaker 3: And we got in the car and I was like, 393 00:22:19,950 --> 00:22:22,850 Speaker 3: Oh my God, what if that wasn't What if it 394 00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:23,810 Speaker 3: wasn't pasteurized? 395 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: I called Whole Foods in a state. 396 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:27,780 Speaker 1: A panic. 397 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 3: And I couldn't let it go. It just consumed me. 398 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:35,939 Speaker 3: I just wanted to be in. 399 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,510 Speaker 2: So interesting. 400 00:22:37,530 --> 00:22:40,930 Speaker 3: I mean, in terms of medication and then stopping medication 401 00:22:40,950 --> 00:22:41,830 Speaker 3: or not wanting to go on. 402 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:45,629 Speaker 1: Yeah, like that spiral. Because Prozac is specifically for that, right? 403 00:22:45,869 --> 00:22:49,020 Speaker 1: I took that beginning my recovery of my eating disorder 404 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,719 Speaker 1: because I couldn't get off the train of, you know. 405 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 406 00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 407 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,689 Speaker 2: No, I know. And I still take it. 408 00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:57,890 Speaker 3: But I'm saying these decisions that we make when we 409 00:22:58,070 --> 00:23:06,189 Speaker 3: are pregnant, post-pregnant, these are big decisions. And I just 410 00:23:06,210 --> 00:23:08,570 Speaker 3: remember feeling I had no choice, right? But to go 411 00:23:08,690 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: off quickly, cold turkey. And so that's when I felt 412 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,340 Speaker 3: just that kind of crazy anxiety, uncontrollable anxiety. I did 413 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,570 Speaker 3: not have postpartum, but I certainly had my moments of 414 00:23:23,690 --> 00:23:25,550 Speaker 3: fear and am I good enough? 415 00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:28,550 Speaker 2: Is this good enough? Am I fucking it up? You know, 416 00:23:28,670 --> 00:23:29,090 Speaker 2: all of that. 417 00:23:29,609 --> 00:23:32,990 Speaker 3: Right. The thing is, this is a precedent setting case. 418 00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:36,780 Speaker 3: And I think everybody kind of feels that, right? So 419 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,540 Speaker 3: the outcome of this case is going to have implications 420 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:42,500 Speaker 3: moving forward. 421 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: It should. 422 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: Yes. 423 00:23:43,859 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: It should for women who are postpartum and you know, 424 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 3: with postpartum psychosis, but I think also for, for men 425 00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:57,850 Speaker 3: who have, you know, mental, severe mental illness, and I'm 426 00:23:57,910 --> 00:24:00,910 Speaker 3: sure there are other mental illnesses where you can all 427 00:24:00,930 --> 00:24:03,690 Speaker 3: of a sudden something, you know, cracks. 428 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: I do think generally speaking that families, you know, partners, 429 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:16,100 Speaker 1: certainly husbands, wives should be given more information about postpartum 430 00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:22,190 Speaker 1: care and, and just the warning signs of a psychiatric emergency. 431 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,420 Speaker 1: My husband didn't know. He knew there were moments where 432 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,060 Speaker 1: he was like, I think this breastfeeding thing's not working 433 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:37,830 Speaker 1: because everybody's crying all the time, you know? But he 434 00:24:37,890 --> 00:24:40,970 Speaker 1: did not know the depths of what I was feeling really, 435 00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:44,770 Speaker 1: you know? And so I don't, and I had, even 436 00:24:44,890 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: in the hospital, my, you know, lactation consultant was really 437 00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:55,330 Speaker 1: mean to me. It was this woman who was literally 438 00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:57,270 Speaker 1: said to me, get it together. 439 00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:59,530 Speaker 2: Well, imagine shaming a new mother. 440 00:24:59,609 --> 00:25:03,590 Speaker 1: Yes. And thank God I was an older mom where I, 441 00:25:03,930 --> 00:25:06,710 Speaker 1: you know, knew who I was and didn't. And I went, 442 00:25:07,270 --> 00:25:10,219 Speaker 1: I don't feel like what you're saying is right or kind. 443 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,260 Speaker 1: And I asked about a breast pump and she said, 444 00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:15,370 Speaker 1: what do you need that for? You have three hours 445 00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:18,070 Speaker 1: in between. You can do plenty of things in three hours. 446 00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:20,330 Speaker 1: And she said things like, oh, you know, this generation, 447 00:25:20,369 --> 00:25:22,710 Speaker 1: you just want to be like handed everything. I was like. 448 00:25:22,730 --> 00:25:24,670 Speaker 2: I hope you reported her. Wow. 449 00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: Oh, I did. 450 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I definitely did. You know, they send you those. 451 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 3: Yes. 452 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: The advocates, the patient advocates. Yeah. 453 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: Like, oh, how was your experience? And I wrote, I wrote, 454 00:25:33,780 --> 00:25:35,980 Speaker 1: it sucked. And I wrote a whole thing and they 455 00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:39,609 Speaker 1: called me like the hospital called me. And I said, yeah, 456 00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:43,149 Speaker 1: this is how it was. And so anyway, you know, 457 00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:45,890 Speaker 1: and this is like, I have great quote unquote, great 458 00:25:45,930 --> 00:25:50,490 Speaker 1: healthcare and great insurance and all that. And I, you know, 459 00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:54,250 Speaker 1: this is like, this needs to be addressed in a 460 00:25:54,270 --> 00:25:54,889 Speaker 1: deeper way. 461 00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:56,929 Speaker 2: There are things that will come out of this. Yes. 462 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,929 Speaker 3: Like men's piece in this and, and being able to 463 00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:03,340 Speaker 3: be aware and all of that. But I was actually 464 00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:09,140 Speaker 3: talking about what happens now if she is acquitted or 465 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 3: if charges are lessened, we'll, you know, murderers be able 466 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: to use the insanity plea more easily. Is this precedent 467 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,570 Speaker 3: setting not just for women postpartum, but for, you know, 468 00:26:26,130 --> 00:26:32,010 Speaker 3: men and women who do horrific things and maybe they 469 00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:37,609 Speaker 3: were something snapped and they were bipolar and given the 470 00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:39,950 Speaker 3: wrong medication. Like, I think that's part of what everyone 471 00:26:40,030 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: is thinking about What happens now? 472 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,179 Speaker 1: But then the other side of that, is it the 473 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: worst thing if those people go into, I don't know, 474 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: some sort of mental health facility? 475 00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:55,180 Speaker 2: I don't know, Lisa. 476 00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:58,260 Speaker 3: And then what if they, like this, the woman that 477 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:03,350 Speaker 3: I mentioned to you earlier, Constance Fisher, and then what 478 00:27:03,550 --> 00:27:05,010 Speaker 3: if they are released? 479 00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:07,070 Speaker 2: It's more easy to be released. 480 00:27:06,790 --> 00:27:08,470 Speaker 3: If you're in an institution than if you're in a 481 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:11,030 Speaker 3: penitentiary and So what does that look like? And then 482 00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:14,730 Speaker 3: Constance killed three more kids. These are deep, important questions 483 00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:18,300 Speaker 3: maybe that need to be raised. And maybe the Lindsay 484 00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:23,260 Speaker 3: Clancy case is everybody is so obsessed because of that, 485 00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:25,179 Speaker 3: because these are questions that maybe it should have been 486 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: addressed years ago. 487 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:27,380 Speaker 2: I don't know. 488 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: Well, I think it also in Lindsay's case, you have 489 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: to look at what she was like before. And this 490 00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:40,300 Speaker 1: was not some, at least from what all the evidence 491 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,540 Speaker 1: states and people have said, this is not some diabolical 492 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:47,140 Speaker 1: woman who was like violent. And she was a great 493 00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:50,870 Speaker 1: described as a great mom and a NICU nurse who 494 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:58,170 Speaker 1: was caring for people and deeply cared about supporting people. So, 495 00:27:58,690 --> 00:27:59,450 Speaker 1: you know, that means. 496 00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:01,410 Speaker 2: I know. I think the same thing. 497 00:28:01,430 --> 00:28:02,170 Speaker 1: It means a lot. 498 00:28:02,310 --> 00:28:03,270 Speaker 2: I just don't know if. 499 00:28:04,869 --> 00:28:07,490 Speaker 3: There are those, and I'm telling you, I am admitting 500 00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 3: it here and now, that when I think about the 501 00:28:10,390 --> 00:28:16,260 Speaker 3: crime itself, I lose compassion. And I don't know if 502 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,090 Speaker 3: that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm so 503 00:28:19,150 --> 00:28:19,870 Speaker 3: lost in this. 504 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,010 Speaker 1: When you talk about it like this, I realize I 505 00:28:37,670 --> 00:28:43,010 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever really let myself think about the 506 00:28:43,090 --> 00:28:44,870 Speaker 1: physicality of the crime. 507 00:28:44,890 --> 00:28:45,790 Speaker 3: I don't blame you. 508 00:28:45,810 --> 00:28:48,790 Speaker 1: The second I get there, then I just, I can't. 509 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:49,670 Speaker 1: I can't. 510 00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: Is it important to? I mean, I think it is. 511 00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: That happened. 512 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,380 Speaker 1: You're right. It is important. 513 00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 2: She did look up ways in which to do this. 514 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,790 Speaker 2: And I'm sure the jury- saw a lot more than 515 00:29:04,850 --> 00:29:05,270 Speaker 2: we did. 516 00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:05,630 Speaker 1: Right. 517 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: But maybe something clicks and you say, lock her up. 518 00:29:11,410 --> 00:29:12,210 Speaker 2: It's just too much. 519 00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:14,010 Speaker 3: I don't know. I know. 520 00:29:14,910 --> 00:29:18,490 Speaker 1: And then it's the question of, you know, in the, 521 00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:25,710 Speaker 1: the diagnosis of psychosis, is there rationality and a, to 522 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,860 Speaker 1: the thought process, right? So if somebody snaps, then is 523 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:34,350 Speaker 1: there a logic to the psychosis right where she's like 524 00:29:34,470 --> 00:29:36,450 Speaker 1: okay this is the most difficult i'm going to do 525 00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:38,210 Speaker 1: this first and then this you know this kind of 526 00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: like there is what is mean? Right. 527 00:29:41,060 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 3: Right. They say that she sent Patrick out and told 528 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,220 Speaker 3: him to get a medication. 529 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: She knew wasn't going to be there. 530 00:29:48,620 --> 00:29:51,620 Speaker 3: And I guess the big question is like, there are 531 00:29:51,660 --> 00:29:55,380 Speaker 3: lots of big questions, but one is, did she have 532 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,490 Speaker 3: an idea? Was she able to distinguish right from wrong? 533 00:29:58,510 --> 00:29:59,250 Speaker 2: Hmm. 534 00:30:00,070 --> 00:30:03,770 Speaker 3: She was so methodical about all of this other stuff. 535 00:30:03,810 --> 00:30:06,790 Speaker 3: Was she able to be aware enough to know she 536 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:07,690 Speaker 3: was doing something? 537 00:30:07,710 --> 00:30:12,500 Speaker 1: This stuff, I don't know if I've brought this up before. 538 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,500 Speaker 1: All of this really, when we're talking about suicide and 539 00:30:17,860 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: these very tragic, complex things, I listened to this man. 540 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:30,850 Speaker 1: I live in San Francisco. The Golden Gate Bridge. is 541 00:30:30,890 --> 00:30:33,750 Speaker 1: a place where it's a destination that people come to 542 00:30:33,810 --> 00:30:38,050 Speaker 1: take their own lives. It's horrific what the numbers are. 543 00:30:38,350 --> 00:30:43,190 Speaker 1: And the press does an excellent job of never promoting 544 00:30:43,230 --> 00:30:46,450 Speaker 1: these things. You can barely find anything about them, but 545 00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:48,690 Speaker 1: you just know when you live here that that's happening. 546 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:56,690 Speaker 1: And this hostage negotiator who would negotiate with people on 547 00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: the bridge who were about to take their own lives, 548 00:31:00,010 --> 00:31:02,610 Speaker 1: did this Ted talk and it was really fascinating. And 549 00:31:02,670 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: he talked about the one, one case in particular where 550 00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:09,740 Speaker 1: he had talked to this young kid and he thought 551 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: he was getting somewhere and they really, you know, talked 552 00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: about life and all, and he was with him for 553 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,180 Speaker 1: over an hour and he really thought he got somewhere. 554 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,140 Speaker 1: And then the boys just said to him, thank you 555 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:25,770 Speaker 1: so much, but I'm sorry, it's too much. And he jumped. 556 00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:27,230 Speaker 2: I know I heard about this. 557 00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:33,730 Speaker 1: It's this thing of, If someone has something in their minds, 558 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:37,900 Speaker 1: at a certain point, is there nothing we can do 559 00:31:38,020 --> 00:31:45,180 Speaker 1: to stop them? That's the part I think that I 560 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:50,380 Speaker 1: personally find so heartbreaking. What if she even did get 561 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,110 Speaker 1: the help? Let me ask you something. How will you feel? 562 00:31:58,220 --> 00:32:00,780 Speaker 3: In the different scenarios, like how will you feel if 563 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:03,660 Speaker 3: she goes away to jail? How will you feel if 564 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 3: she's committed to a sanitarium? How will you feel if 565 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,820 Speaker 3: she's acquitted entirely? Let's say she's acquitted entirely and found, 566 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 3: because she can, there is that possibility, right? She can 567 00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 3: get off completely. 568 00:32:13,420 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: That seems, I would feel very unsettled if that was 569 00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: the case. But I would feel far worse if she 570 00:32:23,110 --> 00:32:25,900 Speaker 1: goes to some hardcore prison. 571 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,630 Speaker 2: I just. 572 00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:33,190 Speaker 1: I would feel terrible for her and her family and 573 00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: everyone involved. How would you feel? 574 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:40,380 Speaker 3: I don't know. Honestly, that's my true answer. I feel 575 00:32:40,420 --> 00:32:43,540 Speaker 3: like if she's acquitted, I would not be comfortable. I'm 576 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: not comfortable with that. I think I'd be not comfortable 577 00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:51,350 Speaker 3: with any of it, but being committed for the rest 578 00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:54,850 Speaker 3: of her life. I mean, I don't think that sounds fabulous. 579 00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:57,350 Speaker 3: I think that probably that sounds also like a punishment. 580 00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:57,770 Speaker 2: It's not. 581 00:32:58,290 --> 00:33:01,130 Speaker 3: But if, and she can get out of there in 582 00:33:01,150 --> 00:33:03,450 Speaker 3: a few years, how do I feel about that? I 583 00:33:03,490 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 3: don't know. If she were to go to prison, maximum 584 00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:10,740 Speaker 3: security prison for the rest of her life, horrifying. Then 585 00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 3: I think about the babies. They don't get another day. 586 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:21,030 Speaker 3: It's all so muddled and so sad and confusing and upsetting. 587 00:33:21,090 --> 00:33:22,770 Speaker 2: It's just awful. Awful. 588 00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:28,070 Speaker 1: It really is. Well, We sure don't have any of 589 00:33:28,110 --> 00:33:31,990 Speaker 1: the answers. And I just, I hope that whatever the 590 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,020 Speaker 1: outcome is, that it truly is for the best and 591 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:36,220 Speaker 1: highest good for everyone. 592 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: Listen, we do a lot of true crime, Elisa. 593 00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 3: And there are times when I talk to either it's families, victims, 594 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 3: we talk to producers and directors and things happen because 595 00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:57,730 Speaker 3: of these horror stories, laws are changed, right? Yes. 596 00:33:57,850 --> 00:33:59,219 Speaker 2: Awareness is increased. 597 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 3: We see resiliency in a way that it's hard to 598 00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:08,739 Speaker 3: even imagine. I don't know if good will come out 599 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,250 Speaker 3: of this. Certainly, I think there will be more attention 600 00:34:13,350 --> 00:34:17,310 Speaker 3: paid to postpartum depression and psychosis. 601 00:34:17,770 --> 00:34:18,490 Speaker 2: So that's good. 602 00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: And if there are any policy changes that could legally 603 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,739 Speaker 1: help this, that would, I mean, that would be right. 604 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:33,260 Speaker 1: Certainly progress. 605 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: Right. Right. But none of it is, feels good right now. 606 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:44,950 Speaker 1: No, no, it doesn't. Well, I, uh, always love chatting 607 00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:48,390 Speaker 1: with you and I wish, I hope that, you know, 608 00:34:48,410 --> 00:34:51,969 Speaker 1: I just send so much love and support to these 609 00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:58,420 Speaker 1: people to, to, Everyone, the family, Lindsay, her ex-husband. 610 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 3: People don't talk a lot about how Patrick, you know, 611 00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:03,580 Speaker 3: because there was so much conspiracy theory. 612 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this man is a broken man. I mean, can 613 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: you imagine you go to the store with, you just 614 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: go on a quick errand and you return and your 615 00:35:13,219 --> 00:35:14,460 Speaker 1: whole life is gone? 616 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 2: No, I cannot. 617 00:35:16,460 --> 00:35:18,900 Speaker 3: And I feel like people are so quick to point 618 00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:20,100 Speaker 3: fingers at him. 619 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 2: So imagine taking that on. 620 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,330 Speaker 1: Yeah, that too. I'd also like to put out into 621 00:35:25,370 --> 00:35:27,550 Speaker 1: the universe that maybe if people can have a little 622 00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:34,590 Speaker 1: less judgment and a little less attack of everyone to really, 623 00:35:35,070 --> 00:35:36,390 Speaker 1: you know, try to see all sides. 624 00:35:37,050 --> 00:35:37,250 Speaker 3: Yeah. 625 00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:38,430 Speaker 1: Because it's complicated. 626 00:35:39,690 --> 00:35:42,350 Speaker 3: Well, listen, I think we're going to have more to 627 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:42,890 Speaker 3: talk about. 628 00:35:43,590 --> 00:35:43,770 Speaker 2: I know. 629 00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:44,529 Speaker 1: I think so too. 630 00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:45,830 Speaker 2: We still don't know what's going to happen. 631 00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:50,230 Speaker 3: So yeah, we will reconvene. 632 00:35:50,670 --> 00:35:51,270 Speaker 1: Reconvene. 633 00:35:51,790 --> 00:35:52,089 Speaker 2: All right. 634 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:52,700 Speaker 1: Love you. 635 00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:53,410 Speaker 2: Love you, baby.