Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by Gouda Cheese. Instead,
Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.
Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more
Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know
Speaker 1: what stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast.
Speaker 1: I Am Devin, joined by and Joe, my co host
Speaker 1: this week. This week, I guess for now, for now,
Speaker 1: we may be replaced by muffins in the future. It's possible,
Speaker 1: always possible. Yeah. Uh. This week we're gonna talk about
Speaker 1: a mysterious disappearance. And this story was suggested by like
Speaker 1: literally everyone literally all the time, suggested a lot a
Speaker 1: couple of times. So I just decided that we would
Speaker 1: just do it, just rip the band aid off. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna do it. No, this is not a bad
Speaker 1: little mystery. Actually, I understand. I understand why people get
Speaker 1: so excited about this one and why they why it
Speaker 1: catches everybody's attention. Yeah, we'll talk about problems with it
Speaker 1: in a little bit. Pulled the bottom out of this
Speaker 1: one later. Yeah, So if you don't read the episode titles.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the disappearance of Ray greek
Speaker 1: Car today, and here's a quick overview of the case
Speaker 1: before we dive in. On April five, Center County, Pennsylvania
Speaker 1: District Attorney, Ray greek Car called his girlfriend to let
Speaker 1: her know that he was out driving, or had just
Speaker 1: gone for a drive, or was on his way home.
Speaker 1: Accounts Ferry Um, however, his way to Louisbourg. You know,
Speaker 1: like I said, I've read so many different accounts already,
Speaker 1: we're into it. Read so many different accounts of what
Speaker 1: he said that it's hard to tell. But definitely he
Speaker 1: was in his car while he called her. And then
Speaker 1: when she arrived home from work, she went to the gym,
Speaker 1: came back, he still wasn't home. It had been twelve hours,
Speaker 1: so she called and reported him missing and that night. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's never been found. There's a lot of business.
Speaker 1: Get out of the way. So you guys just want
Speaker 1: to jump in. Yeah, Okay, who were gonna start with,
Speaker 1: because we got a couple of players. Yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: just start with like a basic overview of raised life
Speaker 1: up until this point. Ray was born in Cleveland, Ohio,
Speaker 1: in in the eighties, Raised then wife took a job
Speaker 1: teaching at penn State, and Ray decided to be a
Speaker 1: stay at home dad for their young adopted daughter, whose
Speaker 1: name was Laura. Totally instated. Still is Laura, She's still alive.
Speaker 1: He had been a prosecutor before before they moved to Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: He specialized mostly in rape and murder cases prior to
Speaker 1: moving to Pennsylvania, and then when the sitting center County
Speaker 1: d A at that time, when he heard that Ray
Speaker 1: was living in the area and was unemployed, he basically
Speaker 1: recruited him to work, first just in his office and
Speaker 1: then as the assistant d A, which Ray accepted. He
Speaker 1: accepted the job. I think it was part time at first,
Speaker 1: and even when he became d A spoiler alert when
Speaker 1: he was elected d A in um Thank You eighty five,
Speaker 1: it was still a part time job until a few
Speaker 1: years later when he petitioned When Ray petitioned for it
Speaker 1: to become a full time job, which it sounds like
Speaker 1: it actually really was a full time job, So I
Speaker 1: don't really know what was happening before. I think they
Speaker 1: were paying him half what they would have to pay them.
Speaker 1: I guess that's true. Probably forty hours or more a
Speaker 1: week probably, So. Yeah, in in nineteen five that UM,
Speaker 1: the d A that hired Ray decided not to rerun
Speaker 1: for office. So Ray ran instead and won the spot
Speaker 1: because it's an elected position. It is an elected position,
Speaker 1: and he was UM. He was DA until his disappearance
Speaker 1: in two thousand five. And I know that I've been
Speaker 1: saying d A a lot. I'm sorry, district attorney, the
Speaker 1: district attorney. I'm going to continue to call it d A.
Speaker 1: But for those of you who are not from America
Speaker 1: or maybe be don't know what a district attorney is
Speaker 1: in America, Basically, it's what we call our public prosecutors
Speaker 1: at like at a very base level obviously, UM, in
Speaker 1: England they're called chief crown prosecutors. It's the local districts attorney. Yeah, basically,
Speaker 1: and they are they are elected officials. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a little more cloud that comes along with it, but
Speaker 1: that at the basic level, that's what it is. The
Speaker 1: sense that I got from UM all of the reading
Speaker 1: and all of the interviews and all of that stuff
Speaker 1: that UM I've done all the research around this is
Speaker 1: that Ray was really a good person. Some people say
Speaker 1: maybe he was a bit of a ladies man, but
Speaker 1: really in his core he seemed to have the best
Speaker 1: of four people. A. Yeah, I mean he he would
Speaker 1: often if cases went again his own personal moral code,
Speaker 1: he would hand them off to people that worked for
Speaker 1: him to prosecute them, uh, to just make sure that
Speaker 1: everything was being done fairly instead of against the death
Speaker 1: penalty he did. Yeah, so he often handed that off
Speaker 1: to his assistant d A. Um, but he really wasn't
Speaker 1: scared to take on big cases. Um. There's some talk
Speaker 1: about you know, so Okay Center County is where Penn
Speaker 1: State is obviously because that's where they moved Conversinia State University,
Speaker 1: which has had some troubles, which we'll talk about some
Speaker 1: of the big old stuff. Yeah, it's a big college.
Speaker 1: So you know, sometimes the athletes they're get in trouble,
Speaker 1: for instance. And he prosecuted almost all those cases. He
Speaker 1: prosecuted a lot of murder, rape, mafia cases, and there
Speaker 1: was nothing he was he wasn't scared to go after that.
Speaker 1: He doesn't an it was kind of his job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was his job. But he also wasn't
Speaker 1: scared to really go after people. And fun fact, you
Speaker 1: guys may or my not be familiar with the murder
Speaker 1: of Beth Doe, which was a Jane Doe in in
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Center County. UM. It was actually pretty horrific case.
Speaker 1: But he ended up putting the serial killer that killed
Speaker 1: Beth Doe behind bars. They still don't know who Beth
Speaker 1: though was, but they found who killed her, so well
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah. Good. John Ray's wife, his first wife
Speaker 1: that worked for penn State, was named Barbara Gray. She
Speaker 1: and Ray did divorce in and then in Ray's brother
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Ray remarried in nine six, but also divorced.
Speaker 1: He married a woman named Emma. But you will almost
Speaker 1: never see that anywhere, except for the fact that she
Speaker 1: is still maybe writing a book about Ray. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: very long time. Yeah. I think the reason that she
Speaker 1: feels like she can write a book about Ray and
Speaker 1: his life is something we're going to talk about in
Speaker 1: a minute. But she was married to Ray until two
Speaker 1: thousand one, so from two thousand one she was his wife,
Speaker 1: and then you know, they divorced in two thousand one,
Speaker 1: and then in two thousand two or maybe two thousand three,
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. Ray moved in with his uh
Speaker 1: Air quotes longtime girlfriend Patty, who also worked in the
Speaker 1: district Attorney's office. I keep using air quotes with the
Speaker 1: longtime girlfriend thing because they were together for three years
Speaker 1: as actual adults over forty. Apparently three years is a
Speaker 1: is a long term relationship. I don't know. Okay, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was in his mid fifties at the time of
Speaker 1: his disappearances. Correct, he would have been, yeah, he would
Speaker 1: have been. Yeah. It's it's funny, though, I really I
Speaker 1: really found it interesting the descriptions by different people of
Speaker 1: that relationship with Patty versus his other wives. I think
Speaker 1: it was much more of a friendship than it was
Speaker 1: than a passionate romance. I would say it was a partnership. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good, But it did seem less. You know, everybody says, well,
Speaker 1: his marriage with Emma was so passionate. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of passion, which means which, which means they fought
Speaker 1: a lot. But they also I think we're passionate in
Speaker 1: terms of the way they expressed themselves positively to each
Speaker 1: other as But it does seem like, you know, everybody says, well,
Speaker 1: Patty's really just his soul mate. She describes herself as
Speaker 1: as soulmates and you know, all of that stuff. But
Speaker 1: it was only three years. Again, who's to say, and
Speaker 1: I don't know, but you know, who's to say it
Speaker 1: probably would have lasted forever. But you know, they always
Speaker 1: they always call her a long time girlfriend. So that's
Speaker 1: where that is. Ray was planning to retire that year,
Speaker 1: um in two thousand five, sorry, the year he disappeared
Speaker 1: and his turn was up. He just wasn't seeking re
Speaker 1: election and his family does say that he reported feeling
Speaker 1: overworked and feeling really tired a lot. Now, the name
Speaker 1: Ray greek Car might be familiar to you, even if
Speaker 1: you didn't know that he doesn't heard and that's because
Speaker 1: of Jerry Sandusky. We're going to talk about some not
Speaker 1: so great stuff for a minute. I believe what I
Speaker 1: referred to it earlier was I things things involving kids
Speaker 1: and that. Yeah. Yeah, So if that bothers you, go
Speaker 1: ahead and skip ahead about five minutes, because you may
Speaker 1: you may not want to hear it, but but you
Speaker 1: may want to hear the rest of the story. So, ok,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about the gym that was Jerry. Jerry
Speaker 1: Sandusky still is i'mers have heard of this guy? You know,
Speaker 1: I would guess, but I you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't know the details until we looked into this.
Speaker 1: I never looked into it, right, because why would you
Speaker 1: really you don't really want to. So. Jerry Sandusky is
Speaker 1: a former assistant football coach at Penn State, which, yes,
Speaker 1: there's already a little bit of his wife. Ray Creeker's
Speaker 1: wife worked for Penn State. Again, huge employer, not to
Speaker 1: say anything, but and they have a lot of clout
Speaker 1: in that town. Yeah. Yeah, But Jerry Sandusky was kind
Speaker 1: of an all around bad kind of human being. He
Speaker 1: founded this charity, which I recognize. I'm going to follow
Speaker 1: up with something that sounds like an awesome thing, but
Speaker 1: just wait. He founded a charity called The Second Mile,
Speaker 1: which served underprivileged youth. UM. George W had really high yeah,
Speaker 1: Bush sorry, had really high praise for the organization. He
Speaker 1: said that it was a shining example. UM in a
Speaker 1: letter that he wrote words I'm sure he regretted. Not
Speaker 1: too far after that, it was a little while be horror.
Speaker 1: At the end of the whole thing came to light.
Speaker 1: It hit the fan, Yeah, it hit the fan. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's estimated that that organization served as many as a
Speaker 1: hundred thousand kids annually. Uh in nearly um it was,
Speaker 1: and it existed almost thirty six years. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of kids. So the percentages that were about to start
Speaker 1: talking about are low, but extremely but like any even
Speaker 1: like point o percent is too many percents. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that's just long story short. He Sandusky basically set this
Speaker 1: up and turn it into his own personal dating service
Speaker 1: a little. Yeah, it turns out, yeah, Sandusky was raping
Speaker 1: young boys that he met through the Second Mile. Officially
Speaker 1: he was charged with lusting nine boys, but he was
Speaker 1: also charged with forty five counts against him. He was
Speaker 1: sexually abusing his adopted son Matt for six or seven years,
Speaker 1: and he met literally all his victims through the Second Mile.
Speaker 1: He was vetting them. He's looking for a very specific
Speaker 1: personality type and sexuality type that was open to the
Speaker 1: kind of suggestion that he was open to. And all
Speaker 1: of them had no father figures. So he sadly very stereotypical.
Speaker 1: Yeah for a predator like that. Yeah, I'm of the
Speaker 1: opinion that he likely had many, many more victims than
Speaker 1: just the nine, But that's you know, my own personal feeling.
Speaker 1: That's for another mystery. That's for a different mystery. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in the spring of two thousand eight, Aaron Fisher Um
Speaker 1: was a high school student where Sandusky was volunteering as
Speaker 1: an assistant football coach, and Aaron told his mom that
Speaker 1: Sandusky had been touching him inappropriately. And Aaron was a freshman.
Speaker 1: Aaron was a freshman. Yeah, so that would make him
Speaker 1: what four depending on when his birthday last. Sandusky's relationship
Speaker 1: quote unquote with Aaron had started in two thousand five
Speaker 1: with the second Mile. And it turns out that a
Speaker 1: graduate assistant coach in Penn State had witnessed Sandusky abusing
Speaker 1: boys in two thousand one and had told Joe Paterno,
Speaker 1: who was the Penn State head coach at the time.
Speaker 1: Pa turn out, to his credit, it seems did report this.
Speaker 1: He sure took his time. He did. He was on vacation,
Speaker 1: so you know, he had to wait. He was about
Speaker 1: to go on vacation when um, when he was told
Speaker 1: about the case. And then he was like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: going to go on vacation, then I'll come back and
Speaker 1: tell everybody that Sandusky has been touching people inappropriately, among
Speaker 1: other things. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, but the people who
Speaker 1: were above Joe Paterno. Seems it seems like they said, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sure Sandusky was just horsing around, even though I
Speaker 1: mean some of the descriptions are are like, oh, Janitor
Speaker 1: saw him behind a boy. They were both naked, the
Speaker 1: boy was pushed up against the wall, and they were
Speaker 1: slapping noises quote unquote. It's just like, but that didn't
Speaker 1: you know, nobody at Penn State seemed to really. I
Speaker 1: think it's one of those situations where the disturbing nature
Speaker 1: of what was going on in each retelling it got
Speaker 1: sanitized more and more to the point that I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they were just playing around the shower. Yeah. So the
Speaker 1: two people um that Joe Paterno did tell it testified
Speaker 1: in court that all they heard was there was some
Speaker 1: horsing around happening in their shower. So they were totally clean.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like Joe turn of stories. He told
Speaker 1: them and they said, don't worry about it, ignore it.
Speaker 1: Either way, it doesn't really matter. I'm telling this story
Speaker 1: because the earliest documentation of Sandusky's abuse was by the
Speaker 1: aforementioned adopted son, Matt. Okay, well, Matt didn't report it,
Speaker 1: but Matt and one of his adopted sisters tried to
Speaker 1: commit suicide, which caused uh CPS Child Protected Services to
Speaker 1: raise some concerns and say they needed to investigate. That's
Speaker 1: kind of unusual to kids committing suicide at the same
Speaker 1: time we're attempting suicide. Yeah, And actually, the thing that
Speaker 1: was really interesting about this is I've read a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff from Matt and he would Child Protective
Speaker 1: Services removed him from the house and took him obviously
Speaker 1: like he was in the hospital, and they said, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to place you somewhere else. This is when
Speaker 1: he was still a foster kid, and he actually wrote
Speaker 1: a letter to Child Protective Services saying that he wanted
Speaker 1: to be placed back with Sandusky, despite the fact that
Speaker 1: he had been being lusted. So, I don't know what.
Speaker 1: I didn't care to go into too much detail onto
Speaker 1: the kind of mind games that Sandusky must have been
Speaker 1: playing with these young boys, but that I think is
Speaker 1: very indicative of the kind of power he had over them.
Speaker 1: In an eleven year old boy later known as Victim
Speaker 1: six in the indictments of Sandusky, came forward to test
Speaker 1: by that Sandusky had showered naked with him and another
Speaker 1: boy enter Ray greek Car. Not not in the shower,
Speaker 1: I hope. No. Not into no, no, not no, no,
Speaker 1: he was the district attorney into the story. I'm sorry
Speaker 1: you leave with something out there. Sandusky showered with these
Speaker 1: two young boys, and he also touched them, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: I was, you know, trying to sanitize it a little bit. Yet. Anyway,
Speaker 1: the victim's mom apparently wanted to talk to Sandusky, which
Speaker 1: is fair, and I guess i've you know, I've heard
Speaker 1: it both ways. Either Sandusky said, hey, I want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about this, or she said we need
Speaker 1: to talk about this, But either way, they range to
Speaker 1: talk about the situation. She had she had reported the situation,
Speaker 1: she had reported it to, she'd reported to the police,
Speaker 1: who reported it to greek Car, and I understood that
Speaker 1: her confronting Sandusky was actually at the prompting of yeah,
Speaker 1: so let's see what you can get. It was a
Speaker 1: bit of a sting. Yeah, you know what absolutely was.
Speaker 1: And this was one of the things that a lot
Speaker 1: of people say about him when you start talking about
Speaker 1: Ray as a professional, is that he was always the
Speaker 1: kind of guy to say, okay, did you try this
Speaker 1: though thinking outside the box? Yeah, you know, he would
Speaker 1: take it. That next step is the thing that people
Speaker 1: say about him. And so I think, you know, the
Speaker 1: mom said, well, my son is being abused, and he said, okay,
Speaker 1: but we need something more concrete than your eleven year
Speaker 1: old child saying that so sadly. Yeah, unfortunately, so let's
Speaker 1: see if we can get Sandusky to admit it. So
Speaker 1: they set up the sting where Sandusky comes to the
Speaker 1: mom's house, and they set up recording devices all around
Speaker 1: the house, and there's cops sitting outside monitoring, and you know,
Speaker 1: like you like, almost like on TV. I guess, and
Speaker 1: apparently apparently Sandusky says, uh, and I quote, I understand
Speaker 1: I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness from you.
Speaker 1: I know I won't get it from you. I wish
Speaker 1: I were dead unquote, which sounds like an admission to me,
Speaker 1: but okay, it's not. He doesn't actually say I'm going
Speaker 1: to really confess. He doesn't. There's there's nothing there, there's nothing. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: there's not. And I mean, I think I was probably
Speaker 1: smart on Sandusky's part. Unfortunately, so Ray decides there's not
Speaker 1: enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky. I agree, I think there
Speaker 1: probably wasn't enough. Unfortunately, again, you can't just say it's
Speaker 1: gonna it's gonna be this grown man who was really
Speaker 1: well respected in the community. It's going to be his
Speaker 1: word forces versus an eleven year old boy. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: sure she. He probably sat down with the mother too
Speaker 1: and probably said, look, you know, this is gonna be
Speaker 1: a high profile case, a lot of publicity. A kid's
Speaker 1: name might not stay secret. And so that's part with
Speaker 1: these any kind of situation, this is almost there. They're
Speaker 1: a watershed moment. It's kind of like the Cosby case.
Speaker 1: One comes out and everybody goes that didn't happen, and
Speaker 1: then suddenly a whole bunch more show up, and that's
Speaker 1: when it gains momentum. But there may not have been
Speaker 1: enough there for him to say I really think that
Speaker 1: this could go. I mean, I'm sure that's why he
Speaker 1: didn't pursue it isn't he didn't have even enough to
Speaker 1: begin with. Yeah, and you know, but unfortunately a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff that Sandusky did eventually get charged with
Speaker 1: happened after that. So a lot of people talk about
Speaker 1: if if Ray had just prosecuted Sandusky, none of this
Speaker 1: would have ever happened, and I don't know that that's true.
Speaker 1: I Sandusky may have started getting sloppy. Yeah you're getting well, No, no, no,
Speaker 1: I just mean that people blame Ray for Sandusky's action.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of people who enabled him, a
Speaker 1: Ray Greek Car was at least among them. I would agree,
Speaker 1: I totally agree with all of his victims should have
Speaker 1: said something number one and a lot of other people suspected.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, we're not pointing finger at
Speaker 1: victims for not coming from I don't know, I understand,
Speaker 1: but I understand why they wouldn't. I just I don't
Speaker 1: want anybody to be upset by that. Yeah, anyway, this
Speaker 1: is not an episode about Sandoski thrankfully, Yeah, we're not.
Speaker 1: I can think I can pretty solidly say we are
Speaker 1: never doing an episode on Santa. Yeah. I can guarantee
Speaker 1: that I don't have a lot of interest in that case. Actually,
Speaker 1: but okay, I will say that you can't talk about
Speaker 1: Greek Car without talking about Sandesky, because the Internet thinks
Speaker 1: they're intimately connected. Yes, so that was just a little
Speaker 1: bit of really icky background. I promise it will factor
Speaker 1: in again in a couple of minutes. Let's get let's
Speaker 1: get back to Ray greekr. Shall we? Yeah? And Patty
Speaker 1: and Patty Yeah. In April fifteen, two five, all around
Speaker 1: eleven thirty, Ray calls his longtime girlfriend Patty to let
Speaker 1: her know that he's been driving. It's very unclear in
Speaker 1: all of the stories that I've read. I've read that
Speaker 1: Patty said he was playing hooky the entire day. I've
Speaker 1: read that his colleague said he was playing hooky for
Speaker 1: half a day, like he was going to take half
Speaker 1: a day off. I've heard that he was actually working.
Speaker 1: I've heard that he was driving home. I've heard that
Speaker 1: he was driving to that he told her that he
Speaker 1: was driving too somewhere. All I know is that he said,
Speaker 1: I'm on, I'm I'm driving in this valley, which, for
Speaker 1: all I know, I mean, it could be that that's
Speaker 1: that meant he was on his way somewhere, and couldn't
Speaker 1: mean he meant his he was on his way. I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly, but yeah, I had to. But we
Speaker 1: do you know that the cell phone paying to tower
Speaker 1: that was next to Highway one, so he was driving
Speaker 1: down that road he was Yeah, No, absolutely, and that
Speaker 1: doesn't that's not an issue For me, it's us what
Speaker 1: he was saying and what the circumstances surrounding this are.
Speaker 1: And that I think is very important because there are
Speaker 1: some things that people bring up as being weird that
Speaker 1: aren't weird. If he was coming from work, say right,
Speaker 1: but if he was playing hookie the entire day, it
Speaker 1: is kind of weird. Well, but the thing is is,
Speaker 1: I know Patty said that he decided to go driving,
Speaker 1: which he was. Yeah, he was known to go take
Speaker 1: a I'm not one of those guys, but some people
Speaker 1: like to take a three four hour drive and just dry.
Speaker 1: And he had he loved his little car he had.
Speaker 1: He had a red Mini Cooper and he loved to
Speaker 1: drive that thing, which is always hilarious to me because
Speaker 1: he was he do you know how I think it
Speaker 1: was like seven. Yeah, he's a big guy and it
Speaker 1: always cracks me up. And I see big guys Mini
Speaker 1: Cooper's except Mini Cooper's fit tall people, which is the
Speaker 1: amazing part about the Mini Cooper. This episode brought to
Speaker 1: you by Mini Cooper Product Place. Yeah, I do think
Speaker 1: that he was driving one north or east northeast to
Speaker 1: Louis because that afternoon. Yeah, No, there's and there's no
Speaker 1: doubt in my mind that he was in Louisbourg in
Speaker 1: that afternoon. Whether he told Patty that's where he was
Speaker 1: going or not, I'm not sure. Whether he was, you know,
Speaker 1: knocking off work for a half day or a whole day,
Speaker 1: I don't know. All I know is he ended up
Speaker 1: in Louisbourg that afternoon. I'm not I'm not concerned about
Speaker 1: that timetable at all. But again it does depend a
Speaker 1: little bit. We'll talk about them a little bit. Actually. So,
Speaker 1: as we said, um, Patty gets home from work, she
Speaker 1: doesn't see Ray. So she goes to the gym, She
Speaker 1: comes back, calls his cell phone a bunch of times, Netflix, No,
Speaker 1: not yet, maybe drink spear or some wine. Calls rays
Speaker 1: cellphone a number of times, she says, it goes straight
Speaker 1: to voicemail. And then finally, after she had not heard
Speaker 1: from him in twelve hours, which was incredibly unlike him,
Speaker 1: she called the cops. She called nine one one and said,
Speaker 1: my boyfriend Ray Greeker is missing, and they of course said,
Speaker 1: oh crap, d is missing. Better get on that. What's
Speaker 1: the last thing you know of him, right, which is
Speaker 1: you know the way you're supposed to do it. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: The following day, which would have been April. Uh, investigators
Speaker 1: find his car either fort or fifty five miles away
Speaker 1: from the home that he shared with Patty, which is
Speaker 1: in Louisbourg, and it was in the parking lot of
Speaker 1: an antique mall that Ray liked, I believe. I've also
Speaker 1: seen some reports that it was in the parking lot
Speaker 1: of a park really, yes, and that plays in in
Speaker 1: a little bit in the theory. I've seen pictures of
Speaker 1: both parking lots as well. It kind of looks like
Speaker 1: one is across the street from the other. And I'll
Speaker 1: be honest with you, I have not gone out to
Speaker 1: Google street View to really check that out. It's it's
Speaker 1: a gravel lot across the street from this, or it's
Speaker 1: in the antiques in it was, it's across the street
Speaker 1: from it. That's uh. The antique ball is just an
Speaker 1: old industrial building that's been converted into sort of a
Speaker 1: mall kind of thing, which right, yeah, like a flea market. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that. In his car, there's not m is
Speaker 1: not him. There's no sign of him, there's no sign
Speaker 1: of his keys, there's no sign of his wallet, there's
Speaker 1: no sign of his county issued laptop, though his county
Speaker 1: issued cell phone was in his car, and I'm under
Speaker 1: the impression that was his only cell phone. Originally, when
Speaker 1: I started doing the research, I thought, surely he had
Speaker 1: a personal cell phone as where as well, But I
Speaker 1: have not actually seen any mention of that. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to assume that his county issued cellphone was his
Speaker 1: only cell phone in two thousand five. I don't know
Speaker 1: that that would have been so, I mean, my mom
Speaker 1: didn't get a cell phone until two thousand five, and
Speaker 1: sixty year old man has no interest in a cell phone.
Speaker 1: He has one because he has to have one, and
Speaker 1: he probably hated it. Yeah, there were no signs of
Speaker 1: foul play around the car, but according to police reports,
Speaker 1: the car smelled like cigarette or cigar smoke. Even though
Speaker 1: Ray was apparently like an avid anti smoker, she hated
Speaker 1: the smell. Yeah, but his car smelled like cigarette smoke.
Speaker 1: And they found a fleck of ash on the back seat, which, okay, fine, whatever,
Speaker 1: win does more than a fleak, But I mean that
Speaker 1: was was not a huge amount of some ash. There
Speaker 1: was some cigarette ash. Yeah. Family members, upon hearing that
Speaker 1: Ray was missing his nephew particularly drove up to come
Speaker 1: kind of help out with the investigation. They showed up.
Speaker 1: They show up in Louisbourg and immediately think, um, you know,
Speaker 1: there's this interview that I watched with a nephew and
Speaker 1: he says, I immediately just thought, oh my god, here
Speaker 1: we go again. Because Ray's car was parked in a
Speaker 1: parking lot next to park near bridge over a river.
Speaker 1: And that's exactly how they found his father's stuff, Roy
Speaker 1: Ray's brother, nephew's father. They that's how they found his
Speaker 1: car before they found out that he had killed himself
Speaker 1: by jumping off a bridge. So the family immediately thought,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Ray killed himself just the exact same way,
Speaker 1: at least according to the nephew. According to the nephew,
Speaker 1: who really likes to be in front of the camp,
Speaker 1: well he's here. He calls himself the official media liaison
Speaker 1: of the family. Nobody else the family really wants to
Speaker 1: talk about. They really don't. Um, but I mean it
Speaker 1: was his father who killed himself, so I can understand
Speaker 1: why he would immediately just be like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: how why So okay, yeah, anyway, they searched the river,
Speaker 1: they find nothing. Nobody, nobody they search all around the
Speaker 1: antique mall, all around the town, and we'll talk about
Speaker 1: some of that stuff in a little bit, but there's
Speaker 1: no no Ray. Ray didn't show up. Eventually, you know,
Speaker 1: they kind of start to scale back the search a
Speaker 1: little bit because you can't do full on manhunt forever.
Speaker 1: Not really. The FBI analyzes raised credit records, nothing, he's
Speaker 1: not tired, nothing's going on. They continue to scale back
Speaker 1: a little bit. Then on July five, fisherman in the
Speaker 1: Susquehanna River found a laptop which was kind of caked
Speaker 1: with mud. It was sitting on the bottom, it was sitting,
Speaker 1: it was getting on the bottom, but it was really
Speaker 1: caked with mud and stuff like that. And uh, they
Speaker 1: immediately turned it over to the police. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if it's because they thought it would be connected to
Speaker 1: this case or not, but they turned it over to
Speaker 1: the police. If you look at the photos of it,
Speaker 1: it's got county property tags on the back of it.
Speaker 1: Of course they always do that. Yeah, so I'm sure
Speaker 1: that these guys probably wiped it off. Oh we should
Speaker 1: probably maybe the county give us a reward. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: they turned it over to the cops and the cops
Speaker 1: give it to their computer forensic expert, who immediately realizes
Speaker 1: there's something very wrong with this computer because it just
Speaker 1: doesn't have a hard drive in it. Oh, I thought
Speaker 1: it because it's full of water. Well that too, that
Speaker 1: wouldn't help. Yeah, so there's no hard drive in this thing,
Speaker 1: so obviously there's nothing. There's there's nothing they can do
Speaker 1: about it. Well, it's got a fish screen saver fish
Speaker 1: swimming on it. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if there's no
Speaker 1: hard drive in a computer, it's not going to do anything.
Speaker 1: There's all the all the fun information is on the
Speaker 1: hard drive. Yea. Although interestingly, I will briefly mention not
Speaker 1: that I necessarily think it pertains to this case, but
Speaker 1: one can pull a hard drive out of a computer,
Speaker 1: out of a laptop and plug in via a USB
Speaker 1: either a flash drive or an external hard drive, and
Speaker 1: run an operating system on that. Steve is looking at
Speaker 1: me like I'm a crazy person. I understand that you
Speaker 1: can do that. I don't understand the implications in this case.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there are any, but I just
Speaker 1: want to throw that out there as something that is possible. Well,
Speaker 1: I think I think that I thought about this very
Speaker 1: thing too, And that is if somebody had raised laptop
Speaker 1: but they didn't know his password, but they wanted information
Speaker 1: off of that, then removing removing the hard drive and
Speaker 1: ugging it in as an external drive to another computer
Speaker 1: would be a way around that, assuming the files on
Speaker 1: the on the hard drive or habit themselves been encrypted. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, maybe I'm dumb, but if the files on
Speaker 1: the hard drive are under my profile and therefore are
Speaker 1: locked behind my password, firewall, whatever you want to call it,
Speaker 1: and you plug in another hard drive to operate the computer,
Speaker 1: that's not what we're saying. We're saying that you remove
Speaker 1: the hard drive from one computer and plug it into
Speaker 1: a different computer, the hard drive into it. Hard drive
Speaker 1: goes from original computer to second computer, and then how
Speaker 1: are you accessing the contents of it when you well,
Speaker 1: I've done the same thing. It's a couple of Mac
Speaker 1: minus that I retired. So you're just you're just going
Speaker 1: through a back door to get to the file tree
Speaker 1: and find things that way. It's just it's it's just
Speaker 1: opens It's like a file that appears to your desktop
Speaker 1: and you plug in. It's like plugging in a USB
Speaker 1: stare or something like that. It's okay, Okay, I got it.
Speaker 1: It's much like a plug and play flash drive. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's the part that I wasn't getting. Well, is locked
Speaker 1: behind his password. Well, and the OS would continue to
Speaker 1: be but the files are not. They're technically still still
Speaker 1: just files. Now I understand it. I've done the very
Speaker 1: same thing, right, I know what you're getting. Okay, So
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's interesting as well as if
Speaker 1: he did have something to hide for some reason, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily have the hard drive in it in the
Speaker 1: computer in the laptop out that you could have something
Speaker 1: that you would be able to disconnect from the computer.
Speaker 1: I know, I have a lot of friends who do
Speaker 1: stuff like this where they, you know, don't necessarily want
Speaker 1: people to just be able to log onto their computer
Speaker 1: or take their actual computer. They have to have two
Speaker 1: parts of the puzzle, right. Anyway, that's a long tangent
Speaker 1: to say. It's possible that somebody removed the hard drive
Speaker 1: and had access to the files otherwise was accessing the files. Okay,
Speaker 1: it was. People would have had different motives. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was also missing the slide in C D C tray.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love the hand motion that you're doing,
Speaker 1: and somehow I figured that out or did by reading
Speaker 1: of the I'm trying to remember this in two thousand five,
Speaker 1: did they have Were we still using floppy disks back
Speaker 1: in those days? So we go to what do we
Speaker 1: go to? DVDs and CDs and all that stuff. It
Speaker 1: depends on how new the model was. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: this was a relatively new computer. I did a bunch
Speaker 1: of looking into this stinking computer. This thing you could
Speaker 1: get it was a Micron, which was actually a fairly
Speaker 1: expensive computer at the time, and you could get There
Speaker 1: were several different options that you could get, one of
Speaker 1: which was the CD. You could get the three and
Speaker 1: a half inch floppy drive. That was an option because
Speaker 1: I actually had hard I had the three and a
Speaker 1: half inch floppy drives from not too long prior to that.
Speaker 1: I still had some sitting around. This computer also had
Speaker 1: the capability. I believe it's in in the photos. You'll
Speaker 1: see when it's open and you're looking at it from
Speaker 1: the front, there's a hole in the left side which
Speaker 1: is actually a separate second hard drive. It had a
Speaker 1: second external hard drive that was a push button it
Speaker 1: could have like it it was. It was meant for
Speaker 1: the business professional had all these different configurations. Well, I
Speaker 1: would suspect that he had a floppy drive, just given
Speaker 1: that it was the government and if you had to
Speaker 1: look at historic stuff like that, you would be on
Speaker 1: he didn't have a floppy because it was floppy or
Speaker 1: CD or your CD is what I I understood. Now.
Speaker 1: The information on Micron is hard because Micron went under.
Speaker 1: They became I love It, They became MCP from Tron,
Speaker 1: and then they went away. So the information of what
Speaker 1: their models were is kind of tough to dig up.
Speaker 1: It was battery in front, external hard drive here, CD
Speaker 1: drive here, and the removable hard The actual physical hard
Speaker 1: drive was somewhere center ish. That was the internal So
Speaker 1: it was the internal hard drive that was removed right
Speaker 1: on the beach. Okay, whatever, fine, So Joe has spoiled
Speaker 1: the fact that a few months later, I think it
Speaker 1: was a few months. It was either two months or
Speaker 1: in the end of October two thousand five, hard to tell.
Speaker 1: It was October, a mom and her kid found the
Speaker 1: hard drive and the CV tray, just like in the
Speaker 1: mud on the banks of the river. The hard drive
Speaker 1: was found with the CD tray. Pretty sure, maybe not me,
Speaker 1: I think the computer, but all the pictures you see
Speaker 1: of it are your rusty. Yeah, it's pulled out of it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess that's probably an unfair assumption on
Speaker 1: my part that it was missing. But the hard drive
Speaker 1: was definitely missing, and it was found a couple of
Speaker 1: months later. Also, it was like a day where they
Speaker 1: found the computer. Yeah, but also you know, also kicked
Speaker 1: on mud and all that stuff. So the police decided
Speaker 1: to turn the hard drive over it. I mean, after
Speaker 1: they find the hard drive. Obviously they turned over to
Speaker 1: the c I A. I believe it was service, thank you,
Speaker 1: and the Secret Service says, no, there's no we can't know.
Speaker 1: There's nothing on here that's usable. This is totally ruined.
Speaker 1: So they but they say, but this, there's this private
Speaker 1: firm that we used to recover all the data from
Speaker 1: the Challenger when it exploded. They're pretty good at this stuff.
Speaker 1: Let's pass it on to them and see what they
Speaker 1: can find. And that firm came back and said, na,
Speaker 1: there's no, there's no way, which is interesting, Well, I said,
Speaker 1: I said, they took it apart, they discovered it. Probably
Speaker 1: you know that there's you know, in a hard drive,
Speaker 1: there's a disk in there, or discs there were, I
Speaker 1: mean not anymore, they don't make them that way anymore,
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, they probably found out and those things
Speaker 1: are kind of delicate. Well they are, you know, like
Speaker 1: some months in the water. I mean, there's gonna be
Speaker 1: some corrosion and stuff. Chance you recover data for those yes, No,
Speaker 1: that's the thing is the challenger. You know, it was
Speaker 1: flung from way far up high and took some heat
Speaker 1: and radiation, but that was a brief impact and brief amounts,
Speaker 1: so yeah, go figure it was still usable wars when
Speaker 1: it's sitting in the mud. Yeah, it's not to think
Speaker 1: about the mud, does your shoes? Yeah? Your computer? Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: And by the way that this was found, this was
Speaker 1: found in open air on the bank, right. It was
Speaker 1: it was like the mud, but yeah, that wasn't underwater. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one thing. You can immerse something in water for
Speaker 1: an extended period of time, but it doesn't necessarily start
Speaker 1: to rust or oxidize and as soon as you getsosed
Speaker 1: to air. Yeah, this thing had been sitting in the air,
Speaker 1: so you know, as rusty as hell. Yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 1: you can you can look at pictures of this and
Speaker 1: it's definitely. They're they're messed up the computer and the
Speaker 1: hard drive both, so nothing nothing, and you know that
Speaker 1: really let the investigators just they just we're heartbroken. I
Speaker 1: think everybody with the case were heartbroken because they found
Speaker 1: the hard drive and they were thinking, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: we're going to solve this thing. I don't see how
Speaker 1: anybody could have looked at that thing and gotten their
Speaker 1: hopes set. Yeah. I don't know either, but hey, it's
Speaker 1: a clue that God knows how much time. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: divers pretty sure that Okay, we found raised computer, that
Speaker 1: must mean that his body somewhere down there. Do another dive.
Speaker 1: They search extensively, nothing, they don't find anything. So finally
Speaker 1: they decided I should mention this. I was looking on
Speaker 1: the thing. It was on redd at some guy, some
Speaker 1: local guy that lives in the area said that the
Speaker 1: in the Susquehanna River people drown all the time. He says,
Speaker 1: they all with the body always turns up. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: it might not be found by the police, but sooner
Speaker 1: or later somebody finds it washed up and we will
Speaker 1: talk about that more in theories stuff. Again. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's fine, I mean yes, but it's fine. Finally, in
Speaker 1: April two thousand nine, police reveal that prior to raise disappearance,
Speaker 1: just a couple of days prior to raise disappearance, somebody
Speaker 1: had used the personal computer at Ray and Patty's house
Speaker 1: to search how to wreck a hard drive, how to
Speaker 1: fry a hard drive, water damaged noble computer? Question about
Speaker 1: that I was. I made some phone calls trying to
Speaker 1: get an answers to these questions, which was why when
Speaker 1: exactly did these searches take place? Because everybody says they
Speaker 1: took place before he disappeared, But I've never heard anybody
Speaker 1: say actually pinned down the actual dates when I haven't either, No,
Speaker 1: I haven't either. Also haven't heard why the police waited
Speaker 1: so long to say that that had happened. And well,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes they they want to keep some certain
Speaker 1: certain details. Absolutely, yeah, so that's why. But but I
Speaker 1: still it's very frustrating to be I called this the
Speaker 1: cold case to unit at this the Pennsylvania State Police,
Speaker 1: and of course they didn't call me back, but I
Speaker 1: wanted to answer to that to that question was exactly
Speaker 1: when were those searches made if anybody even knows they
Speaker 1: could have been made after he disappeared. They could have been.
Speaker 1: Everybody assumes that they were made before, but I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure that that's well. I think they likely, sir.
Speaker 1: I mean, they would have had to have found that
Speaker 1: information on the computer within a day or two of
Speaker 1: Ray disappearing. Well. And my other thing, Joe, is that
Speaker 1: if those searches had come up after Ray had disappeared,
Speaker 1: that brings to light a whole another set of implications
Speaker 1: that says somebody close to him is involved, and you
Speaker 1: know that they would have then looked at Patty and
Speaker 1: anybody else that had access. But I'm assuming that it
Speaker 1: comes out the way it does because it was something
Speaker 1: that he had done a week, a month. There's something
Speaker 1: in advance, and they just they pulled his his search history.
Speaker 1: I just want to put this in context to say
Speaker 1: that you know, Ray was retiring, and he had actually
Speaker 1: been physically at like personally asking people in the office, hey,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you totally wipe a hard drive?
Speaker 1: And I have heard from other people who have been
Speaker 1: district attorneys or served it's not uncommon that it's not
Speaker 1: uncommon to want to do something like that after you've
Speaker 1: left office. You know you've got a computer, you want
Speaker 1: to wipe your stuff. He apparently kept a daily journal
Speaker 1: on his hard drive of his own personal feeling about
Speaker 1: things and all that stuff. And I think it's likely
Speaker 1: that before turning that computer back over to the county,
Speaker 1: he would have wanted to wipe it queen. And so
Speaker 1: I don't I mean, I think, yeah, by water, that's weird. Sure,
Speaker 1: I'm totally willing to say, like how to fry a
Speaker 1: hard drive with water? That's Those are all weird things,
Speaker 1: But just his interest in how to wipe a hard
Speaker 1: drive is not so weird to me. It's not weird
Speaker 1: at all. But the strings, some of these strings really
Speaker 1: set up my BS meter a lot, Like, for example,
Speaker 1: of water damage to note put computer. Can you imagine
Speaker 1: yourself entering that search string of Google? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I can't following how to wrack a hard you know, exactly,
Speaker 1: no no roll back though You're you're assuming that Ray
Speaker 1: has a semi decent grasp on how computers work, and
Speaker 1: not everybody does. And he may have been googling how
Speaker 1: do I a hard drive and then something said or
Speaker 1: if your computer was immersed in water? He's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: what does that do? Water in you? Know notebook, computer
Speaker 1: and water like he may have been followed. I felt
Speaker 1: like I do that. We do that all the time,
Speaker 1: where we take a phrase out of an article and
Speaker 1: and start searching that phrase to understand what it means.
Speaker 1: He may have had no idea. Um, I can only
Speaker 1: tell you I know what happens when I dropped my
Speaker 1: TV into the bathtub. That happens when I try it
Speaker 1: when I drop my laptop into the bathroom. Every everybody knows.
Speaker 1: This is why we keep telling you just stop watching
Speaker 1: TV in the bath But here's the thing. Everybody knows
Speaker 1: that electronics one exposed to water are going to be destroyed.
Speaker 1: We all know this well, can we? And right into
Speaker 1: this I'm sure? So can we put a pin in
Speaker 1: this discussion and start talking about again in theories because
Speaker 1: I think this conversation is going there. We have more
Speaker 1: stuff to cover. Okay, thanks Steve. So I know, back
Speaker 1: to the Appalachian Trail. Yeah, seriously. And I guess the
Speaker 1: thing that I'll echo not about the actual actual queries,
Speaker 1: but like, why if you search on a home computer,
Speaker 1: like you know that search is going to get found?
Speaker 1: Like he would have known that necessarily Ray and not
Speaker 1: necessarily if you if you don't know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe and if you just you just jumped
Speaker 1: from one side to the other devon. The reason that
Speaker 1: I say that is because his colleagues say that. His
Speaker 1: colleagues say he would have known that we found would
Speaker 1: have found that because I mean, he was part of
Speaker 1: investigative teams. He was, I mean, he would have seen
Speaker 1: this happen a lot. He would have seen that people
Speaker 1: were able to go on a computer and see what
Speaker 1: people were searching. He would have known that from investigations
Speaker 1: he had seen. He would know. So that's one of
Speaker 1: the things. Again, we'll talk about this more in theories,
Speaker 1: but to me, that means that he planned to come home.
Speaker 1: That was devoting. It was right. So yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I think you're right about that, and that's why we'll
Speaker 1: talk about it later. But I have my own theory
Speaker 1: about these search strings. Awesome and how they up there. Okay,
Speaker 1: we will talk about them a night, That's okay. But
Speaker 1: that's the last we heard in terms of details details
Speaker 1: about the case. In July of two thousand and eleven,
Speaker 1: Laura Greeker that the adopted daughter petitioned to have the
Speaker 1: court declare Ray legally dead, which they granted, so he
Speaker 1: is legally dead now. It had been six years, had
Speaker 1: been yeah, six years. This is one of the other things.
Speaker 1: There have been a lot of sightings quote unquote sightings
Speaker 1: of Ray, and actually, as it turns out, the police,
Speaker 1: every time they get one of these reports, they follow
Speaker 1: up on it. It sounds like everybody that I've heard
Speaker 1: who's actually seen the evidence says that really the bulk
Speaker 1: of the evidence are these Manila envelopes that the police
Speaker 1: have of each of the quote unquote sightings and how
Speaker 1: they follow it up with it. This one, however, was
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. It was literally one day after Ray was
Speaker 1: declared legally dead, man in Utah was arrested and he
Speaker 1: strongly resembled Ray. He was being charged with a misdemeanor,
Speaker 1: but he refused to give his name. Apparently he resembled Ray.
Speaker 1: He had the same height, the same weight, he had
Speaker 1: the same lips, and the same wrinkles. Lips, yeah, and
Speaker 1: like very similar wrinkles. And I've seen pictures of both
Speaker 1: these guys. He does look like right. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: the authorities in Pennsylvania immediately sent Ray's fingerprints to Utah,
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh my god, we found him or I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we found him and it turns out no match.
Speaker 1: They eventually identified the guy and he had no he
Speaker 1: wasn't Ray. If I had to guess, this guy was
Speaker 1: pulling one of those stupid things that people tell each other.
Speaker 1: If you don't tell, if you say nothing and you
Speaker 1: don't tell them who you are, then they can't book
Speaker 1: you like I've oh, yeah, one of those what are
Speaker 1: those hacks to get out of arrest. Yes, it's it's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's what this guy. It sounds like that's
Speaker 1: what this guy, and he just had the bad misfortune
Speaker 1: to happen to look like exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know, in the anterim between when they when they
Speaker 1: thought he might be ray and when they had confirmed
Speaker 1: that he wasn't, he probably got treated better. Probably, frankly,
Speaker 1: probably he did your Yeah, he's got to tell all
Speaker 1: of his other homeless place. Dude, if you don't say
Speaker 1: who you are, suddenly the upgrade yourself all the other
Speaker 1: guys out. You get great food, you got to try it,
Speaker 1: and they start calling you sir. It's crazy. Theories. You
Speaker 1: can talk about theories. Okay, we're pretty close let's talk
Speaker 1: about this first theory. Never do it, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Let's do it this time, we'll do it. The first
Speaker 1: theory is that Ray was murdered, and there are a
Speaker 1: couple of different ways this could have gone. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: he was prosecuting murderers and rapists and generally bad people
Speaker 1: even before he was yeah, yeah, even before he was
Speaker 1: just attorney, and then before he came to Pennsylvania. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then again you know when he was well, no,
Speaker 1: before that, before when they even before he moved to Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: prior to Pennsylvania, and then when he was he was
Speaker 1: also doing that, sorry, his whole career. Basically, we can
Speaker 1: just say he was charging bad people with the stuff
Speaker 1: they should have been charged with. So it's it's possible
Speaker 1: that one of those things could have come back and
Speaker 1: bit him. However, the fifth we're just going to get
Speaker 1: this one out of the way, the one that everybody
Speaker 1: likes to say, is somebody close to the Jerry Sandusky
Speaker 1: scandal scandal killed Ray, and furthermore, they actually killed Roy
Speaker 1: as well. Now here's how this theory plays out. Steve
Speaker 1: is like gonna just explode. But here's how this theory
Speaker 1: plays out. Roy gets killed in this theory, gets killed
Speaker 1: just about when the first allegations of Jerry Sandusky's was
Speaker 1: he would have maybe gone onto Ray's radar to set
Speaker 1: an example to Ray. So well, so somebody comes up
Speaker 1: to Ray and says, hey, you know, I heard your
Speaker 1: brother died. I'm really sorry about that. Um yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: be a shame if, um, you know, somebody started prosecuting
Speaker 1: this case. It's pretty big, pretty high profile. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: it'd be a shame. I don't buy it. I don't
Speaker 1: buy this at all. But this is something you will
Speaker 1: see on the internet a lot. Here's the deal is
Speaker 1: that State alumni and other heavies like that, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: be going after the d A. They would be actually
Speaker 1: having Sandusky murdered the last guy that you try and
Speaker 1: strong arm. Well, so that the that theory actually often
Speaker 1: gets tight in with Sandusky just ended up being the
Speaker 1: fall guy. This is a huge ring. Everybody in the
Speaker 1: higher ups in the Penn State Athletic Department are participating
Speaker 1: in this. Blah blah blah. I don't buy any of that.
Speaker 1: I should like for the record, I do not buy
Speaker 1: any of that. But that's kind of where this theory
Speaker 1: ends up is that it's the alums are weren't mad
Speaker 1: ad that that this whole like abuse thing was happening.
Speaker 1: They were mad that somebody might prosecute it, and that
Speaker 1: it was this huge ring and they were trying to
Speaker 1: keep it under wraps. Sandusky is a red Harry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: basically in this theory I don't buy. I personally feel
Speaker 1: there's red erring to the Greek arcase I would agree
Speaker 1: I agree to. But so that's how that theory tends
Speaker 1: to run. Another point to bring up is that, right,
Speaker 1: if somebody involved with the Sandusky case, we're trying to
Speaker 1: silence people, they wouldn't be silencing the day. They'd be
Speaker 1: silencing witnesses, which I know is a harsh thing to say,
Speaker 1: but they would be going after the witnesses. They wouldn't
Speaker 1: be going out. I think that. I think that what
Speaker 1: they would have been just like they would have paid
Speaker 1: Sandowsky to retire a lot easier than murdering people. They
Speaker 1: would have paid them and they said, dude, you take
Speaker 1: your retirement, you moved to the other side of the country.
Speaker 1: We don't ever want to hear from you again. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: change your name. So if you get arrested exactly. That's
Speaker 1: what's so, that's I totally agree, totally agree. But we
Speaker 1: do have to talk about this because that's whatever. That's
Speaker 1: like the first thing that comes up to everybody. Okay,
Speaker 1: So if we move away from the Sandusky angle, then
Speaker 1: then then where is what what else is in the
Speaker 1: murder most foul category? Foul? And one more thing about
Speaker 1: Sandusky I'm sorry before we move away that people bring
Speaker 1: up as being kind of weird is that there's literally
Speaker 1: no mention of Ray greek Car being involved with the
Speaker 1: Sandusky case in greek Car's stuff. So like the person
Speaker 1: who took over for him as d A had access
Speaker 1: to literally all his files and didn't know that greek
Speaker 1: Car or that Ray sorry had actually even been a
Speaker 1: part of Sandusky at all. There there was nothing, There
Speaker 1: was no fire, but he wasn't he wasn't pursuing a case.
Speaker 1: It was but he did a police but he did
Speaker 1: at the police did it, and we have all that
Speaker 1: information from the police because they were the one. I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's office would have had a file on on
Speaker 1: it probably, So it is it's a little weird, but
Speaker 1: also it's not really that weird. Well, it's not that weird,
Speaker 1: because I mean, this is where the conspiracy theory maybe
Speaker 1: does make sense, because if there is embarrassing material about
Speaker 1: Sandusky and the d A file, is it possible that
Speaker 1: somebody could have bribed somebody worked in that office to
Speaker 1: remove the file and destroy it. That's entirely possible. But
Speaker 1: but then murder rays that now. But yeah, paperwork gets
Speaker 1: misplaced in files, accidentally get corrupted all the time. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's much more plausible to me than this d A
Speaker 1: seven years later. Well, although it would also give a
Speaker 1: reason to have the hard drive be destroyed, right if
Speaker 1: they thought, well, there's obviously copies of these on the
Speaker 1: hard drive, then we've got to destroy the hard drive
Speaker 1: as well. But again I don't do you can you
Speaker 1: want to talk about the hard drive for a second?
Speaker 1: Do you mind if we if we jump to that
Speaker 1: since we're talking about it's kind of hard drive. The
Speaker 1: hard drive in that computer is held in place by
Speaker 1: a single set screw. Have you ever seen a set
Speaker 1: screw in a in a laptop. It's a set screw
Speaker 1: and a and a like a you know, pull button, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. On the Micron, it was a set screw.
Speaker 1: I looked at that again, I was pulling up the
Speaker 1: manuals and it's a single set screw that holds the
Speaker 1: freaking thing in. And those set screws are always teeny tiny,
Speaker 1: like the size of something that's in your eye glass.
Speaker 1: You're saying that it might have just gotten knocked out accidentally, Okay,
Speaker 1: that the whole thing goes in the water and it
Speaker 1: begins to corrode, and that set screw is either a
Speaker 1: not high quality and it degrades enough that the thing
Speaker 1: just pops out, or be it just comes loose. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've had computers where there was a screw that constantly
Speaker 1: was loosening itself and I had to tighten it back up.
Speaker 1: So when you're talking about somebody was pulling the hard
Speaker 1: drive to do all this stuff, I don't think it's
Speaker 1: nearly as nefarious as that. I just think that it
Speaker 1: was a crappy screw that easily came out. There's why
Speaker 1: I don't think that, and that is that if it
Speaker 1: fell out on impact with the water, then it wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been found on the river bank. I don't see how.
Speaker 1: I mean, hard drives are not positively went neither a computers.
Speaker 1: But the computer was found near the bank. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can wash up. I drawt like action pushes things.
Speaker 1: I'm not disagreeing that. I don't think that it fell
Speaker 1: out immediately, but I think that it came out and
Speaker 1: got caught in the current at some point. But this,
Speaker 1: this this crap happens, and I don't think that it
Speaker 1: was you know, I don't think that it's this amazingly secured,
Speaker 1: welded in place hard drive like it's hard. It's not,
Speaker 1: but it's negatively buyant and it's not going to float
Speaker 1: up onto the bank, which is where it was to score.
Speaker 1: But if there's current, the current is going to shove
Speaker 1: things around the round the bottom. That's why rocks that
Speaker 1: are in the middle of the river end up on
Speaker 1: the bank. Well probably, I think more likely it's just
Speaker 1: going to flow downstream. But you know, I think probably
Speaker 1: somebody just pitched him over the side of the bridge,
Speaker 1: you know, And god knows when it could have been
Speaker 1: any time. It could have been months after the murder
Speaker 1: or the disappearance. I should say, well, we're in there
Speaker 1: in the murder at the moment. In five minutes, you
Speaker 1: can't say it. Yeah, So just one quick thing before
Speaker 1: we let Joe lose on this case. Uh. The other
Speaker 1: thing I guess is that when the initial report was
Speaker 1: released by the police, they said one call, one inbound
Speaker 1: call was made to raise cellphone on the day of
Speaker 1: his disappearance. And then Patty started talking and saying, well,
Speaker 1: I was calling his cellphone all all night. It was
Speaker 1: going to voicemails, going to voicemail, but they were inbound calls.
Speaker 1: That's a that's a good question. I don't know the
Speaker 1: answer to this. But if your phone is shut off
Speaker 1: and his was, and it goes straight to voicemail, does
Speaker 1: that actually get logged in as a call? It doesn't, doesn't, Okay.
Speaker 1: But so eventually, somehow, I'm not totally clear how somebody
Speaker 1: gets ahold of the phone own records and says, oh no,
Speaker 1: actually there's there's a lot of calls in and out
Speaker 1: both on the day that Radus appeared to the number. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so the police edit their report to say, okay, well,
Speaker 1: find all the calls were routine on that day. That's
Speaker 1: a little weird term routine. Mean, that's a good question. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to tell from records. I think probably
Speaker 1: what it means is that none of the numbers stood
Speaker 1: out as odd. They were all numbers that would have
Speaker 1: normally been contacted either way from his cell phone. That
Speaker 1: would be what how I would assume that meant how
Speaker 1: I would assume them in what I assume that meant? Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: And then there are a lot of people out there
Speaker 1: saying that because this was a county owned cell phone,
Speaker 1: the phone records should be a matter of public records,
Speaker 1: So why don't we see those. It's not such a
Speaker 1: big deal for me. But the fact that the police
Speaker 1: initially said, well there was only one call, that's a
Speaker 1: little suspicious. I guess, just tiny bit there withhold a
Speaker 1: lot of information. Often they do. Yeah, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to point a finger about So Joe's got some stuff
Speaker 1: about the murder, not necessarily, but I just you know,
Speaker 1: the search strings too. And as I said earlier, they
Speaker 1: set up my book might B S detector in a
Speaker 1: large way, especially the one about water and electronics, And
Speaker 1: it occurs to me they didn't have to necessarily be
Speaker 1: entered by ray. And because the guy, I assuming he
Speaker 1: was abducted and murdered, which I think he probably was,
Speaker 1: I would agree with this, and I'm actually on board
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, and these people would have his driver's
Speaker 1: license with his address on it, and they would have
Speaker 1: his house keys, and maybe there was something they wanted.
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure that he would have had his
Speaker 1: laptop with them in that car. Well, that's actually a
Speaker 1: big point of contention. It is it is, and so um,
Speaker 1: they might have actually driven to his home and you know,
Speaker 1: made sure that Patty wasn't home, gone inside, found the laptop,
Speaker 1: which maybe they wanted for one reason or another because
Speaker 1: maybe the information that was on it, and then just
Speaker 1: for good measure, they entered a few search strings as
Speaker 1: kind of a red hair and then you know what
Speaker 1: on their way. You know, it may it may well
Speaker 1: be that Ray did not even do any of that
Speaker 1: searching from his computer. That's true, although I guess, and
Speaker 1: maybe this is misplaced faith, but I would assume that
Speaker 1: whoever found those search terms would have been a computer
Speaker 1: expert and would have said, hey, that's weird. These search
Speaker 1: terms were entered at nine pm, when Patty was at
Speaker 1: the gym or something. Don't I mean, don't you think
Speaker 1: that that would be something that they would have And
Speaker 1: I agree, I totally agree with you that like the
Speaker 1: fact that nobody ever says, this is when the search
Speaker 1: terms were made. I agree, that's weird, and they might
Speaker 1: not have actually considered it important to mark the exact
Speaker 1: date and time that the searches were made that were
Speaker 1: really more important. I don't know that when you're doing
Speaker 1: that kind of forensic analysis, when you consider important comes
Speaker 1: into play. I think there's there's process and you you
Speaker 1: go by the numbers. This, this, this, send, this and
Speaker 1: this are what I log in about every detail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's important. I canna write it down.
Speaker 1: So I don't think that. I don't think that's the
Speaker 1: way it works. I don't really know that they had
Speaker 1: an actual forensic computer expert do this. That might have
Speaker 1: just been a detective who did it. And so you
Speaker 1: just I can't I can't argue with there. There has
Speaker 1: been a certain amount of criticism of the of the investigation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although I don't think I mean, I think they did
Speaker 1: everything they probably could probably did, And there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with having a detective go looking for search strings. I
Speaker 1: mean maybe at that time it was like couldn't really
Speaker 1: be understood. They were just looking to see what he
Speaker 1: was up to on his computer. Yeah, they didn't really
Speaker 1: care about the precise time and date that they did it,
Speaker 1: all right, And and that's why the search string. You know,
Speaker 1: what does water do to a laptop kind of sets
Speaker 1: off bells for me. Well, but he may he may wonder, Okay,
Speaker 1: does that just fry the system or does that actually
Speaker 1: erase the hard drives? When I was getting out earlier,
Speaker 1: I personally I think that I think that he's in
Speaker 1: a shallow grave somewhere, and I think that it just
Speaker 1: has something to do with a prior case, probably a
Speaker 1: crime of opportunity that a hole right there put me
Speaker 1: away for seven years. I'm getting my revenge right exactly.
Speaker 1: And so this is this is why he was on
Speaker 1: Route one, which you've looked at on Google Maps. I'm sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a nice long drive to the woods. Lots of
Speaker 1: side roads, lots of places to pull off, go down
Speaker 1: side road, pull the shovel out of the back of
Speaker 1: your red Cooper Mini and dig a hole and bury
Speaker 1: your hard drive. No need to throw it in the
Speaker 1: river right next to where you parked your car. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: And that makes absolutely no sense that he did that,
Speaker 1: And it makes every every amount of sense to me
Speaker 1: that whoever did the deed would plant that evidence there,
Speaker 1: and so I'm not totally I's gonna totally be on
Speaker 1: the rebel possibility they planted those search strings too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's fair. That's my two bits. Okay, so next theory
Speaker 1: is suicide. I don't give this one a lot of credence.
Speaker 1: Most people don't know. I mean that the one thing
Speaker 1: that I will admit kind of lens credence to this
Speaker 1: is the fact that he was unusually tired and kind
Speaker 1: of grumpy and depressed. I mean, I think he was
Speaker 1: probably depressed. Yeah, there was I read you read the
Speaker 1: same thing. I know, but by one of his co
Speaker 1: workers who worked with them for twenty years, he said
Speaker 1: he was in a strange mood that way. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: had been in a strange mood. His longtime girlfriend Patty said,
Speaker 1: um that he was so tired that he that she
Speaker 1: told him that if he continued to be that tired
Speaker 1: that he needed to go to the doctor. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: he just seemed generally lethargic and kind of to be
Speaker 1: displaying the symptoms of somebody who would be depressed. But
Speaker 1: I don't, I just don't. I don't buy it. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't buy it because well he he you know,
Speaker 1: seen the effect of his brother's suicide and everybody around him.
Speaker 1: That's a big deterrent. Yeah, and so you see that.
Speaker 1: I just like, you know, do I want to be
Speaker 1: this big of a flaming jerk to the people around me?
Speaker 1: And probably not? Yeah, probably not. He didn't strike me
Speaker 1: as that kind of guy. And then also to do
Speaker 1: it like almost exactly like your brother did. That's that
Speaker 1: to me is really like the big one is like,
Speaker 1: even if you were going to kill yourself and your
Speaker 1: brother had killed himself before, why would you make it
Speaker 1: look so similar to his suicide. Although if you if
Speaker 1: you were, you know, wanting to murder him, on the
Speaker 1: other hand, you were aware of the details of his
Speaker 1: brother's suicide, you might just mirror that. You might just
Speaker 1: do that exactly. There's an issue with the suicide theory. Okay,
Speaker 1: what's that the water level? That's true, it was pretty low. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about let's talk about the let's just I'm
Speaker 1: going to pose a new theory and then we can
Speaker 1: talk about Okay, I'll back off on that. A theory
Speaker 1: that I never really see, which is fair because I
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of issues with it. But
Speaker 1: also I guess it's possible that he was trying to
Speaker 1: dispose of the computer, albeit in a dumb way, right
Speaker 1: by throwing it over a bridge. Is this it is theory.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually looked at too closely that ridge, and
Speaker 1: there's sidewalks on that bridge. There are, yeah, there's sidewalks
Speaker 1: and a low railing across the bridge, and it's I
Speaker 1: mean it's but it's not that tall of a bridge
Speaker 1: or anything like that. But you know, I guess it
Speaker 1: is possible that he was trying to dispose of his
Speaker 1: computer in a dumb way again and just fell in,
Speaker 1: which again I don't think is a very good theory,
Speaker 1: but it's possible, and I don't see people talking about
Speaker 1: that as a thing. People say, well, he would have
Speaker 1: intentionally jumped, but nobody says, what if he just accidentally fell.
Speaker 1: It seems kind of unlikely. It seems unlikely. Well, that's
Speaker 1: that's the same thing we talked about this when we
Speaker 1: were talking about the Luchad story. Yeah, exactly, it's super unlikely.
Speaker 1: And actually there are some comparisons with the luch Store
Speaker 1: story in that half the reporting that you'll hear says
Speaker 1: that the river at that time was like really low,
Speaker 1: like below waist level low, and the bridge is pretty low.
Speaker 1: It's not it's not really high. I don't ap okay,
Speaker 1: I mean around here on April fifteen, the rivers are high. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so according to the next you on dateline, which
Speaker 1: I guess we are going to say is a pretty
Speaker 1: credible source, the water was reasonably high, um, due to
Speaker 1: rain and ice melts. But again, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's April in Pennsylvania. It's cold, it's cold, and um,
Speaker 1: apparently the Susquehanna River is full of islands and fast
Speaker 1: rapids um places where brush pile up fast get packed
Speaker 1: in that could usually easily hide a body. There's also
Speaker 1: a damn pretty far down. Oh this is this is
Speaker 1: you pulling this quote from the police chief. I remember this, yeah,
Speaker 1: because he really cringed when he made the phrase and
Speaker 1: disintegrate a body. Yeah, But I mean also there's a
Speaker 1: dam that apparently a body could get kind of wedged
Speaker 1: up against. Although again, on the other hand, a different
Speaker 1: police officer interviewed in this same news story says that
Speaker 1: the water was crystal clear and you could literally see
Speaker 1: to the bottom and it's pretty much just a flat
Speaker 1: rock with some like silt, but not very not a
Speaker 1: very thick layer of silty mud stuff on top of it.
Speaker 1: So I get, you know, it's just kind of like
Speaker 1: all of these stories are conflicting. There's no way for
Speaker 1: me to know definitively what the river looked like on
Speaker 1: that day. So I don't think he probably could have
Speaker 1: died falling off the bridge. To be honest, I think he.
Speaker 1: I don't think that that happened suicide or otherwise. I
Speaker 1: don't think that he died by falling in the river.
Speaker 1: We suicide too. They probably going back to suicide, I
Speaker 1: should say that if he had committed suicide, I don't
Speaker 1: think they would have found the laptop there exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And in addition to that, you know, maybe he was depressed,
Speaker 1: and certainly mental illness and depression and things like that
Speaker 1: take all sorts of different forms. But at least on paper,
Speaker 1: he had a pretty good life. He was about to retire,
Speaker 1: he had a lot of money, he had, he was
Speaker 1: planning on traveling, he had a love that pension. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there was a lot of stuff going
Speaker 1: from him for him. And frankly, this is kind of
Speaker 1: going into the next theory. But if he if he wanted,
Speaker 1: if he was so inclined to escape his life in
Speaker 1: one way or another, it would have been pretty easy
Speaker 1: for him to do. So this is the Dorothy Arnold theory,
Speaker 1: the Dorothy Kay he ran off the joints circus. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the next theory is that he ran away for
Speaker 1: a new life, which is pretty unlikely. I called the circus,
Speaker 1: by the way, did you have they said here? They
Speaker 1: would say that, though, wait, did you talk to the
Speaker 1: bearded lady or the wolfan because the wolfman's a liar.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I talked to twins. Oh those two
Speaker 1: they check their information against each other. So yeah, um, okay, well,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna I'm gonna present this in a in
Speaker 1: a series of But then, oh boy, yeah, start ran
Speaker 1: away to start a new life is really unlikely. But
Speaker 1: then there's the dark haired smoking woman. Everybody likes a
Speaker 1: dark haired smoking woman. Yeah that's true. So yeah, according
Speaker 1: to a lot of credible sightings, Ray was seen with
Speaker 1: a woman with dark hair who was smoking. Now, a
Speaker 1: lot of reports have them eating lunch together, but it
Speaker 1: turns out no, no, actually that was a different middle
Speaker 1: aged man who drove a mini Cooper, who was hanging
Speaker 1: out with a woman, yeah, who looked kind of like Ray,
Speaker 1: who also was hanging out with a woman who matched
Speaker 1: vaguely the description of the woman who was seen with Ray.
Speaker 1: So that adds some interesting, complicated stuff to it. However,
Speaker 1: later in the day in the antiques, in the antique shop,
Speaker 1: in the antique mall um this there was a dark
Speaker 1: haired woman who was smoking who was seen with Ray.
Speaker 1: Apparently they would kind of walk together and talk and
Speaker 1: then go into different stores and then come back together
Speaker 1: and walk and talk again. She was smoking, so was
Speaker 1: she and raised car hard to tell. Okay, So that's point.
Speaker 1: It's unlikely that he ran away to start a new life.
Speaker 1: But what's up with the fact that his daughter literally
Speaker 1: just asked him to come back on the a press conference?
Speaker 1: Dune done. She just said, Dad, I love you, come back.
Speaker 1: And that was that. What date was that? It was
Speaker 1: like two days later? Three days later? Maybe that's Ye'll
Speaker 1: just take off. That makes total We'll talk about that
Speaker 1: in a minute. Okay, it's unlikely every time, it's unlikely
Speaker 1: that he left to start a new life, But what's
Speaker 1: up with his fascination with mel Wiley? This is true
Speaker 1: He had apparently a really deep fascination with this guy
Speaker 1: named mel Wiley, who was the Hickney County, Ohio sheriff,
Speaker 1: who disappeared with a whole lot of like really similar coincidences,
Speaker 1: like he parked his car with all of his belongings
Speaker 1: inside near a body of water with no signs of
Speaker 1: foul play and told his girlfriend he was going to
Speaker 1: do something and then disappeared forever. Just just don't ever
Speaker 1: tell their girlfriends we're gonna go do one thing. He
Speaker 1: was going to go buy swim trunks, Like, why is
Speaker 1: that the thing though, the first thing that pops into
Speaker 1: your mind? Yeah? Maybe what How do we know he
Speaker 1: is that fascinated with mel Wiley because he talked about
Speaker 1: all the time. He would it was it was it
Speaker 1: was kind of his go to It was his favorite
Speaker 1: unsolved mystery. It was his go to story. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of like you've got a couple of them
Speaker 1: that you will just if we're sitting down and having
Speaker 1: a beer, you will bring up the we're talking about
Speaker 1: the again, like he's it may have been his go
Speaker 1: to things when it sounds like, well here's the deal, guys,
Speaker 1: it says he's out there, you know, living under an
Speaker 1: assumed name. We got on the on the jota. Obviously
Speaker 1: this mystery. Okay, so it's super unlikely that he ran
Speaker 1: away to start new life, except for that, as you
Speaker 1: guys mentioned, he had actually run away before, well not
Speaker 1: for more than about a day. It was a day fair,
Speaker 1: but that was reported when he was married to his
Speaker 1: second wife, Emma. They had a fight because she bought
Speaker 1: some boddie furniture that he was not super stoked on.
Speaker 1: So he just got in the car and drove to
Speaker 1: Ohio from Pennsylvania to go see an Indians game. And
Speaker 1: apparently that was like one of the first things that
Speaker 1: Comps died to called. They called. They called down and said,
Speaker 1: does anybody anybody matching that? Did Ray Greegard? And he's
Speaker 1: he there? And they said no, and they said rap.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is that I I don't see anything
Speaker 1: weird about this because if their relationship was as it
Speaker 1: has been described, he may have been so hot under
Speaker 1: the caller that his first instinct was I need to leave. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I need to leave. But this this is why it
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me that he has disappeared before. That was
Speaker 1: a very different relationship and he while it was reported
Speaker 1: he did it once, he may have actually done it
Speaker 1: several times in the past where he was so furious
Speaker 1: I gotta go. So that's that's why his daughter making
Speaker 1: the plea. She's like, damn a dad, you get mad
Speaker 1: and you go hang out at the Red Lion for
Speaker 1: three days and you won't talk to us, You jerk,
Speaker 1: just call me like. That's that's the way I take
Speaker 1: her statement. I think so too, you know, at that point.
Speaker 1: But as far as the mysterious dark haired woman, the
Speaker 1: possibility that you know, maybe he had taken up with
Speaker 1: somebody new and he wanted to run off and live
Speaker 1: with her, but she could have been something else. She
Speaker 1: might have been bait. Yeah, that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that that really sticks out to me. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think she was bait more than more likely than anything else.
Speaker 1: She never came forward. You noticed that. I mean it
Speaker 1: could there could could have been an embarrassment factor if
Speaker 1: she maybe was screwing around with gray behind everybody's back.
Speaker 1: But it was considered a ladies man. But here's the
Speaker 1: thing is he wasn't married, Yeah right, I mean there
Speaker 1: would like it would have been fairly easy for him
Speaker 1: to just walk away from the relationship he was in.
Speaker 1: He was about to retire, he wouldn't be working with
Speaker 1: Patty anymore. And she even says, like point blank, if
Speaker 1: he didn't want to be with me anymore, he wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been with me. I know that. So I I
Speaker 1: do agree it's possible that this woman was bait. I
Speaker 1: mean the kind of the interactions that people described between
Speaker 1: the two of them, where they would just suddenly find
Speaker 1: each other again in the crowd. Now it is a
Speaker 1: little bit. It's a little bit like she was trying
Speaker 1: really hard to establish a rapport with him, or him
Speaker 1: with her, which is fair, right. If he was laid
Speaker 1: in and he just wanted to flirt with her, that's fine.
Speaker 1: But one of them or both of them were trying
Speaker 1: to establish that rapport, and so I would think, and
Speaker 1: I think what happened if she said, you know what
Speaker 1: I do is I'm an antiques to you that I
Speaker 1: sell to a lot of these people. If you want
Speaker 1: to come out and look at my van, I've got
Speaker 1: some great stuff and it's going to be so much
Speaker 1: cheaper because they're going to mark it up, you know,
Speaker 1: and you'll say, so much money, so just come out
Speaker 1: to my van and have a look sick. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: if if we're gonna pull the hard the Devon did,
Speaker 1: which is what's the theory that hasn't been ever put
Speaker 1: out there? And I know that this will actually play
Speaker 1: into the next theory is what if he was bait
Speaker 1: for her? In other words, he may have been involved
Speaker 1: in something trying to pull somebody forward in his extract
Speaker 1: information in some other kind of operation that nobody knew
Speaker 1: about who's talking, and the whole thing went sideways. So
Speaker 1: how could down sideways so sideways? Say again, yeah, thinking sideways,
Speaker 1: we're doing it. The next theory that that Steve was
Speaker 1: just referencing, which his thing fits in nicely with, I guess,
Speaker 1: is yeah, it's crazy. It's like we have a script
Speaker 1: or something sans the next theory, you have a misspelling
Speaker 1: in the script. The next theory that Steve's most recent
Speaker 1: thing uh matches pretty well into is that it's it's
Speaker 1: possible I guess that Ray is in witness protection. I
Speaker 1: think this is a solid five out of seven stars.
Speaker 1: Five stars, just it's a five out of seven. It's perfect. Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Okay, Okay, So here's
Speaker 1: here's why this works. Every time somebody requests any documents
Speaker 1: relating to this case from the FBI or the local
Speaker 1: law enforcement, it is heavily redacted. And they always say, well,
Speaker 1: he was the d A, so like we're redacting names
Speaker 1: and things like that. But apparently almost all of the
Speaker 1: documents that you request either you never hear back about,
Speaker 1: like Joe not getting calls back, or it's just like
Speaker 1: super super adaptive. I didn't request any of the documents,
Speaker 1: so like, I don't actually know that for a fact,
Speaker 1: and Steve shaking his head, like he apparently requested documents
Speaker 1: and got them from the FBI and they weren't redacted
Speaker 1: at all. It was like, not a black mark on it.
Speaker 1: But I've never seen an FBI document without a black
Speaker 1: mark on it, and nor have I. I I if dead
Speaker 1: Spin did several years back, did an fo I freume
Speaker 1: of information request for docs, and it's redacted in the
Speaker 1: most generic form of being redacted. Social Security numbers, agents, names,
Speaker 1: like all of the normal things that would be redacted.
Speaker 1: It's the most boring seventy page pdf I've ever read through. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know they I read it too, and I really
Speaker 1: would have liked it. If somebody to give me a
Speaker 1: heads up that none of it had anything to do
Speaker 1: with the end of the investigation into the two thousand
Speaker 1: and five disappearance. Six favorite work would And eventually I
Speaker 1: was reading and reading. Then I started spinning through and
Speaker 1: stopping looking at the date eighty six, spin spin spin out,
Speaker 1: still eighty six, And yeah, I mean that's all it was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but here's the thing I'm saying. You guys saw this.
Speaker 1: They checked with the CIA, they didn't ANIME check with
Speaker 1: the c HEY, and there was a redaction on that
Speaker 1: three names versions of his name that could be used. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But but the thing about it is, as as you
Speaker 1: know that the internet went bonkers, they want bonkers bonkers
Speaker 1: exactly the word. Yeah. So okay, but it's redacted, Steve,
Speaker 1: It's super really redacted. I know what you're saying, though,
Speaker 1: is that? Oh no, I actually go ahead, Do you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Yeah, Well, I think these documents
Speaker 1: were so heavily redacted because they had to put on
Speaker 1: the appearance of investigating this assiduously. Okay, yeah, exactly. I
Speaker 1: mean that's the thing. It's the it's on the one hand,
Speaker 1: on the other hand right, On the one hand, if
Speaker 1: he were in witness protection, why are this public search?
Speaker 1: Why this all this money, why this extensive thing. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, if they didn't look for him
Speaker 1: in books suspicious and like they were high eating something,
Speaker 1: so they had to put this on and that's what
Speaker 1: you do, I wouldn't be the face I just made.
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is is that's that's and
Speaker 1: and there's an easy way to do that, and that
Speaker 1: you have like random word generation generators and then you
Speaker 1: print them out and then you have some administrative assistant
Speaker 1: just readact about you know, about two thirds of it
Speaker 1: and it's going to be inintelligible, but it's perfect, you know.
Speaker 1: And so people think, because you have massive files on Ray,
Speaker 1: that you've actually been working hard at it. But you've
Speaker 1: actually been not wasting any resources at all. Well, it's
Speaker 1: hard when his computer shows up, Yeah, right, when his
Speaker 1: computer shows up, and they go, uh, yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: we disposed of that really well in the Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing that people say, he'll see this said
Speaker 1: is um. But but Ray wouldn't have been eligible for
Speaker 1: witness protection because he was a public prosecutor, and prosecutors
Speaker 1: by definition cannot be witnesses, so they are not eligible
Speaker 1: for witness protection. Is that not true? No, it is true. Okay,
Speaker 1: So the way, I actually consulted one of our experts
Speaker 1: on this um and he confirmed exactly what I was thinking.
Speaker 1: His name is Stephen. Thinks Stephen um not you shut up, um.
Speaker 1: But what he was what he said is exactly what
Speaker 1: I was thinking, and that is that if within the
Speaker 1: scope of your position as a public prosecutor you see
Speaker 1: something or find something out that pertains to the case,
Speaker 1: you are not a witness. You're a prosecutor. If, however,
Speaker 1: in your personal life you witness something like a murder
Speaker 1: and then that crazy human being starts to come after you,
Speaker 1: you are a witness to that crime. You're not a prosecutor,
Speaker 1: and therefore you are eligible for witness protection. Your job
Speaker 1: does not have an influence on your life as a
Speaker 1: private citizen. Correct. However, typically witness protection isn't this like Hollywood,
Speaker 1: We're just gonna while you away for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life and give you a new life and everything's
Speaker 1: going to be fine. It's we're going to protect you
Speaker 1: until litigation is done and then you're on your own.
Speaker 1: It's that that Steve Martin movie. No, it's not. Do
Speaker 1: you know the movie I'm talking about, it's not. It's
Speaker 1: not Lily Hammer, right, it's not. I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: any of those things. You go away for a little while,
Speaker 1: you stay safe until that person has been prosecuted and
Speaker 1: the threat has dissolved, and then they return you to
Speaker 1: your life. And besides which you know what exactly what
Speaker 1: Hannis crimes happened in Louisburg on the afternoon, Well, it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily that that would have been when he witnessed
Speaker 1: the crime. That's when they evaporated. But that's when you know,
Speaker 1: that was the time. Yeah, exactly when they evaporated him,
Speaker 1: when the aliens came for him. Yeah, were are the
Speaker 1: aliens in our theories? They're not. No, I mean I
Speaker 1: just did Phobos. I don't know what you want from me.
Speaker 1: I want those two in every story. Okay, Well, my
Speaker 1: next theory is that it was the alien picabras. He
Speaker 1: did a new sitting judge to judge their cases of
Speaker 1: intergalactic The only thing that could make this more like
Speaker 1: you're eight year old girl making this up. So there
Speaker 1: were if you if you started twirling your hair, because
Speaker 1: the look on your face. Also, there were uniforms and
Speaker 1: they were flying on ships that were sunshine at rainbows.
Speaker 1: You have one last thing here, what is this? I
Speaker 1: haven't they actually, Yeah, let's talk about that theory, because
Speaker 1: that last thing we already talked about. Okay, I mean
Speaker 1: this just seems so obvious to me. It was the
Speaker 1: I R S. It was April, for God's sake. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're coming after him for taxes. Well every April fifteenth
Speaker 1: they make an example out of one text on tax payer.
Speaker 1: But usually they like advertise that though usually they're like,
Speaker 1: you remember what happened array over here? What happened to you?
Speaker 1: It's on the front page of the website. Think ye,
Speaker 1: don't miss the deadline. Okay, Well that's it. Do you
Speaker 1: have anything else you want to add? I will be honest.
Speaker 1: I still believe that he was murdered, and I still
Speaker 1: say that he's in a shallow grave in some field
Speaker 1: somewhere because somebody had a crime of opportunity to get
Speaker 1: back at him. Most likely it was that it could
Speaker 1: have been a very well planned thing where they you know,
Speaker 1: they actually have had a really good reason to do it,
Speaker 1: or it could have been a crime of opportunity. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess the like the problem is is like, why
Speaker 1: did he have his laptop with him? That's totally solved
Speaker 1: if he was coming from work, right. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: I'm happy to believe the colleagues who say he played
Speaker 1: hockey for half a day, he was coming from work,
Speaker 1: he up and have it with him. You don't just
Speaker 1: leave that in your car, but you do when you
Speaker 1: forget about it. My wife has done this before. She
Speaker 1: has come home and it has been Saturday at three
Speaker 1: o'clock and all of a sudden she'll look at me
Speaker 1: and go, oh, hell, my company laptop is in the car. Right.
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that would explain and why he
Speaker 1: would have had it on him when he disappeared. But
Speaker 1: you're probably right. Actually, probably somebody came to his car
Speaker 1: and took a bunch of stuff and tossed it. Because
Speaker 1: that's why it smelled like smoke, right, Because what do
Speaker 1: you do after you knocked somebody up? You have a
Speaker 1: you have a drag? Ye. So, But I mean, but
Speaker 1: that's why I'm inclined to believe that he was he
Speaker 1: knocked off for half a day instead of taking the
Speaker 1: whole day off because it was it was unusual for
Speaker 1: him to have his computer with him. There would have
Speaker 1: been no reason for him to have it with him,
Speaker 1: even in the car. It wouldn't have been But you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean again I've heard I've heard
Speaker 1: it both ways too. He took the whole day off,
Speaker 1: took half the day off, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: he took half the day makes sense that he would
Speaker 1: have his laptop in his computer and that's resolved. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he got knocked off. I mean, there's just
Speaker 1: no reason to believe he committed suicide or just disappeared
Speaker 1: in my In my heart of hearts, I hope that
Speaker 1: he's like in witness protection or like ran off to
Speaker 1: have a new life, but seems unlikely. He probably isn't.
Speaker 1: Just eleven years. Yeah, thanks and Steve Martin And what
Speaker 1: was the other guy in the movie Martin short, I
Speaker 1: never saw that movie, My Blue Heaven. I never saw
Speaker 1: that one. Oh, it's hilarious. They sent him to a
Speaker 1: town that was full of ex cons who were all
Speaker 1: in witness protection, and they all knew each other and
Speaker 1: they were running rackets. It was the funniest movie ever
Speaker 1: and of course it was you know, mid nineties garbage,
Speaker 1: but Steve Martin, So yeah, I guess if you want
Speaker 1: to see some of the research that we did, watch
Speaker 1: my Blue Heaven, don't watch Heaven, that's not research. You
Speaker 1: can find that information on our website. The website is
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can also stream and
Speaker 1: download the episodes the website were question. We replaced the player,
Speaker 1: so you should be able to do that. You cannot comment,
Speaker 1: but that's okay. You can find merch links to the
Speaker 1: merch on the website. UM they're on the left hand side,
Speaker 1: right hand side, sorry, along with the links to PayPal
Speaker 1: and Hatreon. UM. Those are both donation sites. If you
Speaker 1: want to do a one time donation, we recommend PayPal.
Speaker 1: If you want to do recurring, we recommend Patreon. UM.
Speaker 1: Just remember Patreon is reoccurring, so it's like four times
Speaker 1: a month you make that donation, which we love. Super
Speaker 1: helpful to a couple of episodes, but thank you so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are probably listening to us on iTunes. If you are,
Speaker 1: and you have not already UM subscribed, given us a
Speaker 1: review and a rating, do so. Please If you liked us,
Speaker 1: even if you didn't like us. You can still give
Speaker 1: us a rating. Make it a good one though, Yeah
Speaker 1: five stars. You're just like a Spike giving a star. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's actually opposite for you guys. Yeah yeah, Um, if
Speaker 1: you're streaming us on whatever, you were on all of them,
Speaker 1: if you can comment and right there, do so there
Speaker 1: as well. That's how you help other people find us.
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, we have the group and the page,
Speaker 1: so you can like us and join the group. Lots
Speaker 1: of good dicussion happening there. We're on Twitter, we're thinking sideways. UM.
Speaker 1: I just post a lot of random stuff, very rarely
Speaker 1: about the show or anything like yeah anymore. The closest
Speaker 1: relation to the show is is here's something that sort
Speaker 1: of once had Devin's face and it is now is
Speaker 1: just completely filtered. Yeah, it's really fun. Um, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I mean, like we have people who will tweet
Speaker 1: and ask questions or say things or suggest or whatever,
Speaker 1: and that's great. I you know, I love and that's
Speaker 1: how I mostly interact with people. You guys are more
Speaker 1: on the Facebook and more on the Twitter. Um, but
Speaker 1: we also have a subreddit as well, which I interact
Speaker 1: with people on. UM. That is just it's just Thinking Sideways,
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Pod. That one is not us. What's going
Speaker 1: on on the subreddit these days, by the way, I
Speaker 1: have not been out there in a while. Lots of discussion,
Speaker 1: there's a there's an episode discussion for every episode, and
Speaker 1: um lots of links. People post the things that they
Speaker 1: think we might find interesting. I need to ge out
Speaker 1: there and look at that. Yeah, we also have an
Speaker 1: email address if you want to talk to us, if
Speaker 1: you want to suggest something, if you want to be
Speaker 1: an expert, if you come across something, you can send
Speaker 1: it to us as a story of suggestion. Yeah, or
Speaker 1: if you just want to chat with us, that's cool too.
Speaker 1: That email address is, of course, Thinking Sideways Podcast at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And I guess all of that having
Speaker 1: been said, I don't have a joke for the end
Speaker 1: of this one. I'm just gonna say bye and talk
Speaker 1: to you guys next week. Oh bye.