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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by Gouda Cheese. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon.

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Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more

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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know

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Speaker 1: what stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I Am Devin, joined by and Joe, my co host

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Speaker 1: this week. This week, I guess for now, for now,

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Speaker 1: we may be replaced by muffins in the future. It's possible,

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Speaker 1: always possible. Yeah. Uh. This week we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: a mysterious disappearance. And this story was suggested by like

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Speaker 1: literally everyone literally all the time, suggested a lot a

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Speaker 1: couple of times. So I just decided that we would

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Speaker 1: just do it, just rip the band aid off. I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna do it. No, this is not a bad

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Speaker 1: little mystery. Actually, I understand. I understand why people get

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Speaker 1: so excited about this one and why they why it

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Speaker 1: catches everybody's attention. Yeah, we'll talk about problems with it

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Speaker 1: in a little bit. Pulled the bottom out of this

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Speaker 1: one later. Yeah, So if you don't read the episode titles.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the disappearance of Ray greek

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Speaker 1: Car today, and here's a quick overview of the case

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Speaker 1: before we dive in. On April five, Center County, Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: District Attorney, Ray greek Car called his girlfriend to let

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Speaker 1: her know that he was out driving, or had just

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Speaker 1: gone for a drive, or was on his way home.

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Speaker 1: Accounts Ferry Um, however, his way to Louisbourg. You know,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I've read so many different accounts already,

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Speaker 1: we're into it. Read so many different accounts of what

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Speaker 1: he said that it's hard to tell. But definitely he

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Speaker 1: was in his car while he called her. And then

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Speaker 1: when she arrived home from work, she went to the gym,

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Speaker 1: came back, he still wasn't home. It had been twelve hours,

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Speaker 1: so she called and reported him missing and that night. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he's never been found. There's a lot of business.

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Speaker 1: Get out of the way. So you guys just want

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Speaker 1: to jump in. Yeah, Okay, who were gonna start with,

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Speaker 1: because we got a couple of players. Yeah, so let's

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Speaker 1: just start with like a basic overview of raised life

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Speaker 1: up until this point. Ray was born in Cleveland, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: in in the eighties, Raised then wife took a job

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Speaker 1: teaching at penn State, and Ray decided to be a

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Speaker 1: stay at home dad for their young adopted daughter, whose

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Speaker 1: name was Laura. Totally instated. Still is Laura, She's still alive.

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Speaker 1: He had been a prosecutor before before they moved to Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: He specialized mostly in rape and murder cases prior to

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Speaker 1: moving to Pennsylvania, and then when the sitting center County

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Speaker 1: d A at that time, when he heard that Ray

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Speaker 1: was living in the area and was unemployed, he basically

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Speaker 1: recruited him to work, first just in his office and

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Speaker 1: then as the assistant d A, which Ray accepted. He

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Speaker 1: accepted the job. I think it was part time at first,

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Speaker 1: and even when he became d A spoiler alert when

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Speaker 1: he was elected d A in um Thank You eighty five,

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Speaker 1: it was still a part time job until a few

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Speaker 1: years later when he petitioned When Ray petitioned for it

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Speaker 1: to become a full time job, which it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it actually really was a full time job, So I

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Speaker 1: don't really know what was happening before. I think they

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Speaker 1: were paying him half what they would have to pay them.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's true. Probably forty hours or more a

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Speaker 1: week probably, So. Yeah, in in nineteen five that UM,

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Speaker 1: the d A that hired Ray decided not to rerun

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Speaker 1: for office. So Ray ran instead and won the spot

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Speaker 1: because it's an elected position. It is an elected position,

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Speaker 1: and he was UM. He was DA until his disappearance

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Speaker 1: in two thousand five. And I know that I've been

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Speaker 1: saying d A a lot. I'm sorry, district attorney, the

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Speaker 1: district attorney. I'm going to continue to call it d A.

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Speaker 1: But for those of you who are not from America

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Speaker 1: or maybe be don't know what a district attorney is

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Speaker 1: in America, Basically, it's what we call our public prosecutors

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Speaker 1: at like at a very base level obviously, UM, in

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Speaker 1: England they're called chief crown prosecutors. It's the local districts attorney. Yeah, basically,

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Speaker 1: and they are they are elected officials. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a little more cloud that comes along with it, but

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Speaker 1: that at the basic level, that's what it is. The

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Speaker 1: sense that I got from UM all of the reading

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Speaker 1: and all of the interviews and all of that stuff

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Speaker 1: that UM I've done all the research around this is

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Speaker 1: that Ray was really a good person. Some people say

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Speaker 1: maybe he was a bit of a ladies man, but

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Speaker 1: really in his core he seemed to have the best

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Speaker 1: of four people. A. Yeah, I mean he he would

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Speaker 1: often if cases went again his own personal moral code,

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Speaker 1: he would hand them off to people that worked for

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Speaker 1: him to prosecute them, uh, to just make sure that

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Speaker 1: everything was being done fairly instead of against the death

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Speaker 1: penalty he did. Yeah, so he often handed that off

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Speaker 1: to his assistant d A. Um, but he really wasn't

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Speaker 1: scared to take on big cases. Um. There's some talk

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Speaker 1: about you know, so Okay Center County is where Penn

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Speaker 1: State is obviously because that's where they moved Conversinia State University,

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Speaker 1: which has had some troubles, which we'll talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the big old stuff. Yeah, it's a big college.

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Speaker 1: So you know, sometimes the athletes they're get in trouble,

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Speaker 1: for instance. And he prosecuted almost all those cases. He

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Speaker 1: prosecuted a lot of murder, rape, mafia cases, and there

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Speaker 1: was nothing he was he wasn't scared to go after that.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't an it was kind of his job. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was his job. But he also wasn't

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Speaker 1: scared to really go after people. And fun fact, you

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Speaker 1: guys may or my not be familiar with the murder

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Speaker 1: of Beth Doe, which was a Jane Doe in in

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania Center County. UM. It was actually pretty horrific case.

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Speaker 1: But he ended up putting the serial killer that killed

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Speaker 1: Beth Doe behind bars. They still don't know who Beth

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Speaker 1: though was, but they found who killed her, so well

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Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah. Good. John Ray's wife, his first wife

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Speaker 1: that worked for penn State, was named Barbara Gray. She

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Speaker 1: and Ray did divorce in and then in Ray's brother

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Speaker 1: committed suicide. Ray remarried in nine six, but also divorced.

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Speaker 1: He married a woman named Emma. But you will almost

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Speaker 1: never see that anywhere, except for the fact that she

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Speaker 1: is still maybe writing a book about Ray. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: very long time. Yeah. I think the reason that she

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Speaker 1: feels like she can write a book about Ray and

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Speaker 1: his life is something we're going to talk about in

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Speaker 1: a minute. But she was married to Ray until two

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Speaker 1: thousand one, so from two thousand one she was his wife,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, they divorced in two thousand one,

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Speaker 1: and then in two thousand two or maybe two thousand three,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. Ray moved in with his uh

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Speaker 1: Air quotes longtime girlfriend Patty, who also worked in the

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Speaker 1: district Attorney's office. I keep using air quotes with the

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Speaker 1: longtime girlfriend thing because they were together for three years

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Speaker 1: as actual adults over forty. Apparently three years is a

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Speaker 1: is a long term relationship. I don't know. Okay, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was in his mid fifties at the time of

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Speaker 1: his disappearances. Correct, he would have been, yeah, he would

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Speaker 1: have been. Yeah. It's it's funny, though, I really I

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Speaker 1: really found it interesting the descriptions by different people of

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Speaker 1: that relationship with Patty versus his other wives. I think

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Speaker 1: it was much more of a friendship than it was

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Speaker 1: than a passionate romance. I would say it was a partnership. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's good, But it did seem less. You know, everybody says, well,

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Speaker 1: his marriage with Emma was so passionate. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot of passion, which means which, which means they fought

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Speaker 1: a lot. But they also I think we're passionate in

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Speaker 1: terms of the way they expressed themselves positively to each

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Speaker 1: other as But it does seem like, you know, everybody says, well,

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Speaker 1: Patty's really just his soul mate. She describes herself as

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Speaker 1: as soulmates and you know, all of that stuff. But

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Speaker 1: it was only three years. Again, who's to say, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but you know, who's to say it

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Speaker 1: probably would have lasted forever. But you know, they always

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Speaker 1: they always call her a long time girlfriend. So that's

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Speaker 1: where that is. Ray was planning to retire that year,

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Speaker 1: um in two thousand five, sorry, the year he disappeared

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Speaker 1: and his turn was up. He just wasn't seeking re

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Speaker 1: election and his family does say that he reported feeling

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Speaker 1: overworked and feeling really tired a lot. Now, the name

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Speaker 1: Ray greek Car might be familiar to you, even if

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Speaker 1: you didn't know that he doesn't heard and that's because

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Speaker 1: of Jerry Sandusky. We're going to talk about some not

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Speaker 1: so great stuff for a minute. I believe what I

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Speaker 1: referred to it earlier was I things things involving kids

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Speaker 1: and that. Yeah. Yeah, So if that bothers you, go

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Speaker 1: ahead and skip ahead about five minutes, because you may

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Speaker 1: you may not want to hear it, but but you

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Speaker 1: may want to hear the rest of the story. So, ok,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about the gym that was Jerry. Jerry

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Speaker 1: Sandusky still is i'mers have heard of this guy? You know,

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Speaker 1: I would guess, but I you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know the details until we looked into this.

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Speaker 1: I never looked into it, right, because why would you

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Speaker 1: really you don't really want to. So. Jerry Sandusky is

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Speaker 1: a former assistant football coach at Penn State, which, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's already a little bit of his wife. Ray Creeker's

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Speaker 1: wife worked for Penn State. Again, huge employer, not to

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Speaker 1: say anything, but and they have a lot of clout

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Speaker 1: in that town. Yeah. Yeah, But Jerry Sandusky was kind

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Speaker 1: of an all around bad kind of human being. He

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Speaker 1: founded this charity, which I recognize. I'm going to follow

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Speaker 1: up with something that sounds like an awesome thing, but

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Speaker 1: just wait. He founded a charity called The Second Mile,

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Speaker 1: which served underprivileged youth. UM. George W had really high yeah,

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Speaker 1: Bush sorry, had really high praise for the organization. He

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Speaker 1: said that it was a shining example. UM in a

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Speaker 1: letter that he wrote words I'm sure he regretted. Not

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Speaker 1: too far after that, it was a little while be horror.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the whole thing came to light.

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Speaker 1: It hit the fan, Yeah, it hit the fan. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's estimated that that organization served as many as a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand kids annually. Uh in nearly um it was,

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Speaker 1: and it existed almost thirty six years. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: of kids. So the percentages that were about to start

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Speaker 1: talking about are low, but extremely but like any even

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Speaker 1: like point o percent is too many percents. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's just long story short. He Sandusky basically set this

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Speaker 1: up and turn it into his own personal dating service

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Speaker 1: a little. Yeah, it turns out, yeah, Sandusky was raping

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Speaker 1: young boys that he met through the Second Mile. Officially

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Speaker 1: he was charged with lusting nine boys, but he was

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Speaker 1: also charged with forty five counts against him. He was

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Speaker 1: sexually abusing his adopted son Matt for six or seven years,

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Speaker 1: and he met literally all his victims through the Second Mile.

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Speaker 1: He was vetting them. He's looking for a very specific

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Speaker 1: personality type and sexuality type that was open to the

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Speaker 1: kind of suggestion that he was open to. And all

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Speaker 1: of them had no father figures. So he sadly very stereotypical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for a predator like that. Yeah, I'm of the

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Speaker 1: opinion that he likely had many, many more victims than

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Speaker 1: just the nine, But that's you know, my own personal feeling.

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Speaker 1: That's for another mystery. That's for a different mystery. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in the spring of two thousand eight, Aaron Fisher Um

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Speaker 1: was a high school student where Sandusky was volunteering as

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Speaker 1: an assistant football coach, and Aaron told his mom that

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Speaker 1: Sandusky had been touching him inappropriately. And Aaron was a freshman.

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Speaker 1: Aaron was a freshman. Yeah, so that would make him

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Speaker 1: what four depending on when his birthday last. Sandusky's relationship

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Speaker 1: quote unquote with Aaron had started in two thousand five

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Speaker 1: with the second Mile. And it turns out that a

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Speaker 1: graduate assistant coach in Penn State had witnessed Sandusky abusing

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Speaker 1: boys in two thousand one and had told Joe Paterno,

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Speaker 1: who was the Penn State head coach at the time.

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Speaker 1: Pa turn out, to his credit, it seems did report this.

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Speaker 1: He sure took his time. He did. He was on vacation,

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Speaker 1: so you know, he had to wait. He was about

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Speaker 1: to go on vacation when um, when he was told

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Speaker 1: about the case. And then he was like, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to go on vacation, then I'll come back and

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Speaker 1: tell everybody that Sandusky has been touching people inappropriately, among

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Speaker 1: other things. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, but the people who

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Speaker 1: were above Joe Paterno. Seems it seems like they said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Sandusky was just horsing around, even though I

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Speaker 1: mean some of the descriptions are are like, oh, Janitor

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Speaker 1: saw him behind a boy. They were both naked, the

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Speaker 1: boy was pushed up against the wall, and they were

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Speaker 1: slapping noises quote unquote. It's just like, but that didn't

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Speaker 1: you know, nobody at Penn State seemed to really. I

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Speaker 1: think it's one of those situations where the disturbing nature

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Speaker 1: of what was going on in each retelling it got

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Speaker 1: sanitized more and more to the point that I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they were just playing around the shower. Yeah. So the

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Speaker 1: two people um that Joe Paterno did tell it testified

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Speaker 1: in court that all they heard was there was some

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Speaker 1: horsing around happening in their shower. So they were totally clean.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like Joe turn of stories. He told

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Speaker 1: them and they said, don't worry about it, ignore it.

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Speaker 1: Either way, it doesn't really matter. I'm telling this story

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Speaker 1: because the earliest documentation of Sandusky's abuse was by the

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Speaker 1: aforementioned adopted son, Matt. Okay, well, Matt didn't report it,

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Speaker 1: but Matt and one of his adopted sisters tried to

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Speaker 1: commit suicide, which caused uh CPS Child Protected Services to

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Speaker 1: raise some concerns and say they needed to investigate. That's

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Speaker 1: kind of unusual to kids committing suicide at the same

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Speaker 1: time we're attempting suicide. Yeah, And actually, the thing that

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Speaker 1: was really interesting about this is I've read a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stuff from Matt and he would Child Protective

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Speaker 1: Services removed him from the house and took him obviously

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Speaker 1: like he was in the hospital, and they said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to place you somewhere else. This is when

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Speaker 1: he was still a foster kid, and he actually wrote

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Speaker 1: a letter to Child Protective Services saying that he wanted

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Speaker 1: to be placed back with Sandusky, despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: he had been being lusted. So, I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: I didn't care to go into too much detail onto

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Speaker 1: the kind of mind games that Sandusky must have been

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Speaker 1: playing with these young boys, but that I think is

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Speaker 1: very indicative of the kind of power he had over them.

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Speaker 1: In an eleven year old boy later known as Victim

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Speaker 1: six in the indictments of Sandusky, came forward to test

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Speaker 1: by that Sandusky had showered naked with him and another

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Speaker 1: boy enter Ray greek Car. Not not in the shower,

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Speaker 1: I hope. No. Not into no, no, not no, no,

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Speaker 1: he was the district attorney into the story. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: you leave with something out there. Sandusky showered with these

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Speaker 1: two young boys, and he also touched them, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, trying to sanitize it a little bit. Yet. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the victim's mom apparently wanted to talk to Sandusky, which

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Speaker 1: is fair, and I guess i've you know, I've heard

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Speaker 1: it both ways. Either Sandusky said, hey, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about this, or she said we need

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Speaker 1: to talk about this, But either way, they range to

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Speaker 1: talk about the situation. She had she had reported the situation,

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Speaker 1: she had reported it to, she'd reported to the police,

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Speaker 1: who reported it to greek Car, and I understood that

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Speaker 1: her confronting Sandusky was actually at the prompting of yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's see what you can get. It was a

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Speaker 1: bit of a sting. Yeah, you know what absolutely was.

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Speaker 1: And this was one of the things that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people say about him when you start talking about

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Speaker 1: Ray as a professional, is that he was always the

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Speaker 1: kind of guy to say, okay, did you try this

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Speaker 1: though thinking outside the box? Yeah, you know, he would

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Speaker 1: take it. That next step is the thing that people

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Speaker 1: say about him. And so I think, you know, the

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Speaker 1: mom said, well, my son is being abused, and he said, okay,

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Speaker 1: but we need something more concrete than your eleven year

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Speaker 1: old child saying that so sadly. Yeah, unfortunately, so let's

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Speaker 1: see if we can get Sandusky to admit it. So

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Speaker 1: they set up the sting where Sandusky comes to the

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Speaker 1: mom's house, and they set up recording devices all around

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Speaker 1: the house, and there's cops sitting outside monitoring, and you know,

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Speaker 1: like you like, almost like on TV. I guess, and

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Speaker 1: apparently apparently Sandusky says, uh, and I quote, I understand

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Speaker 1: I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness from you.

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Speaker 1: I know I won't get it from you. I wish

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Speaker 1: I were dead unquote, which sounds like an admission to me,

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Speaker 1: but okay, it's not. He doesn't actually say I'm going

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Speaker 1: to really confess. He doesn't. There's there's nothing there, there's nothing. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there's not. And I mean, I think I was probably

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Speaker 1: smart on Sandusky's part. Unfortunately, so Ray decides there's not

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Speaker 1: enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky. I agree, I think there

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Speaker 1: probably wasn't enough. Unfortunately, again, you can't just say it's

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Speaker 1: gonna it's gonna be this grown man who was really

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Speaker 1: well respected in the community. It's going to be his

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Speaker 1: word forces versus an eleven year old boy. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure she. He probably sat down with the mother too

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Speaker 1: and probably said, look, you know, this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: a high profile case, a lot of publicity. A kid's

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Speaker 1: name might not stay secret. And so that's part with

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Speaker 1: these any kind of situation, this is almost there. They're

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Speaker 1: a watershed moment. It's kind of like the Cosby case.

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Speaker 1: One comes out and everybody goes that didn't happen, and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly a whole bunch more show up, and that's

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Speaker 1: when it gains momentum. But there may not have been

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Speaker 1: enough there for him to say I really think that

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Speaker 1: this could go. I mean, I'm sure that's why he

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Speaker 1: didn't pursue it isn't he didn't have even enough to

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Speaker 1: begin with. Yeah, and you know, but unfortunately a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stuff that Sandusky did eventually get charged with

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Speaker 1: happened after that. So a lot of people talk about

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Speaker 1: if if Ray had just prosecuted Sandusky, none of this

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Speaker 1: would have ever happened, and I don't know that that's true.

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Speaker 1: I Sandusky may have started getting sloppy. Yeah you're getting well, No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I just mean that people blame Ray for Sandusky's action.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of people who enabled him, a

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Speaker 1: Ray Greek Car was at least among them. I would agree,

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Speaker 1: I totally agree with all of his victims should have

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Speaker 1: said something number one and a lot of other people suspected.

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Speaker 1: And and by the way, we're not pointing finger at

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Speaker 1: victims for not coming from I don't know, I understand,

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Speaker 1: but I understand why they wouldn't. I just I don't

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Speaker 1: want anybody to be upset by that. Yeah, anyway, this

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Speaker 1: is not an episode about Sandoski thrankfully, Yeah, we're not.

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Speaker 1: I can think I can pretty solidly say we are

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Speaker 1: never doing an episode on Santa. Yeah. I can guarantee

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Speaker 1: that I don't have a lot of interest in that case. Actually,

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Speaker 1: but okay, I will say that you can't talk about

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Speaker 1: Greek Car without talking about Sandesky, because the Internet thinks

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Speaker 1: they're intimately connected. Yes, so that was just a little

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Speaker 1: bit of really icky background. I promise it will factor

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Speaker 1: in again in a couple of minutes. Let's get let's

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Speaker 1: get back to Ray greekr. Shall we? Yeah? And Patty

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Speaker 1: and Patty Yeah. In April fifteen, two five, all around

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Speaker 1: eleven thirty, Ray calls his longtime girlfriend Patty to let

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Speaker 1: her know that he's been driving. It's very unclear in

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Speaker 1: all of the stories that I've read. I've read that

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Speaker 1: Patty said he was playing hooky the entire day. I've

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Speaker 1: read that his colleague said he was playing hooky for

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Speaker 1: half a day, like he was going to take half

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Speaker 1: a day off. I've heard that he was actually working.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that he was driving home. I've heard that

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Speaker 1: he was driving to that he told her that he

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Speaker 1: was driving too somewhere. All I know is that he said,

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Speaker 1: I'm on, I'm I'm driving in this valley, which, for

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Speaker 1: all I know, I mean, it could be that that's

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Speaker 1: that meant he was on his way somewhere, and couldn't

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Speaker 1: mean he meant his he was on his way. I

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly, but yeah, I had to. But we

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Speaker 1: do you know that the cell phone paying to tower

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Speaker 1: that was next to Highway one, so he was driving

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Speaker 1: down that road he was Yeah, No, absolutely, and that

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Speaker 1: doesn't that's not an issue For me, it's us what

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Speaker 1: he was saying and what the circumstances surrounding this are.

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Speaker 1: And that I think is very important because there are

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Speaker 1: some things that people bring up as being weird that

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00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: aren't weird. If he was coming from work, say right,

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Speaker 1: but if he was playing hookie the entire day, it

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Speaker 1: is kind of weird. Well, but the thing is is,

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Speaker 1: I know Patty said that he decided to go driving,

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Speaker 1: which he was. Yeah, he was known to go take

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Speaker 1: a I'm not one of those guys, but some people

376
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Speaker 1: like to take a three four hour drive and just dry.

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Speaker 1: And he had he loved his little car he had.

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Speaker 1: He had a red Mini Cooper and he loved to

379
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Speaker 1: drive that thing, which is always hilarious to me because

380
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Speaker 1: he was he do you know how I think it

381
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: was like seven. Yeah, he's a big guy and it

382
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: always cracks me up. And I see big guys Mini

383
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Speaker 1: Cooper's except Mini Cooper's fit tall people, which is the

384
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: amazing part about the Mini Cooper. This episode brought to

385
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 1: you by Mini Cooper Product Place. Yeah, I do think

386
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Speaker 1: that he was driving one north or east northeast to

387
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: Louis because that afternoon. Yeah, No, there's and there's no

388
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Speaker 1: doubt in my mind that he was in Louisbourg in

389
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Speaker 1: that afternoon. Whether he told Patty that's where he was

390
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,479
Speaker 1: going or not, I'm not sure. Whether he was, you know,

391
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Speaker 1: knocking off work for a half day or a whole day,

392
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Speaker 1: I don't know. All I know is he ended up

393
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Speaker 1: in Louisbourg that afternoon. I'm not I'm not concerned about

394
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: that timetable at all. But again it does depend a

395
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: little bit. We'll talk about them a little bit. Actually. So,

396
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: as we said, um, Patty gets home from work, she

397
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: doesn't see Ray. So she goes to the gym, She

398
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 1: comes back, calls his cell phone a bunch of times, Netflix, No,

399
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: not yet, maybe drink spear or some wine. Calls rays

400
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: cellphone a number of times, she says, it goes straight

401
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: to voicemail. And then finally, after she had not heard

402
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: from him in twelve hours, which was incredibly unlike him,

403
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: she called the cops. She called nine one one and said,

404
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: my boyfriend Ray Greeker is missing, and they of course said,

405
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: oh crap, d is missing. Better get on that. What's

406
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: the last thing you know of him, right, which is

407
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: you know the way you're supposed to do it. Yeah, exactly.

408
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: The following day, which would have been April. Uh, investigators

409
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: find his car either fort or fifty five miles away

410
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: from the home that he shared with Patty, which is

411
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,479
Speaker 1: in Louisbourg, and it was in the parking lot of

412
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Speaker 1: an antique mall that Ray liked, I believe. I've also

413
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: seen some reports that it was in the parking lot

414
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: of a park really, yes, and that plays in in

415
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: a little bit in the theory. I've seen pictures of

416
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: both parking lots as well. It kind of looks like

417
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: one is across the street from the other. And I'll

418
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 1: be honest with you, I have not gone out to

419
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: Google street View to really check that out. It's it's

420
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: a gravel lot across the street from this, or it's

421
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: in the antiques in it was, it's across the street

422
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: from it. That's uh. The antique ball is just an

423
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: old industrial building that's been converted into sort of a

424
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: mall kind of thing, which right, yeah, like a flea market. Yeah,

425
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: I like that. In his car, there's not m is

426
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: not him. There's no sign of him, there's no sign

427
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: of his keys, there's no sign of his wallet, there's

428
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: no sign of his county issued laptop, though his county

429
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: issued cell phone was in his car, and I'm under

430
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 1: the impression that was his only cell phone. Originally, when

431
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: I started doing the research, I thought, surely he had

432
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: a personal cell phone as where as well, But I

433
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: have not actually seen any mention of that. So I'm

434
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: going to assume that his county issued cellphone was his

435
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: only cell phone in two thousand five. I don't know

436
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 1: that that would have been so, I mean, my mom

437
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: didn't get a cell phone until two thousand five, and

438
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: sixty year old man has no interest in a cell phone.

439
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: He has one because he has to have one, and

440
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: he probably hated it. Yeah, there were no signs of

441
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: foul play around the car, but according to police reports,

442
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: the car smelled like cigarette or cigar smoke. Even though

443
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: Ray was apparently like an avid anti smoker, she hated

444
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: the smell. Yeah, but his car smelled like cigarette smoke.

445
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: And they found a fleck of ash on the back seat, which, okay, fine, whatever,

446
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: win does more than a fleak, But I mean that

447
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: was was not a huge amount of some ash. There

448
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 1: was some cigarette ash. Yeah. Family members, upon hearing that

449
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: Ray was missing his nephew particularly drove up to come

450
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: kind of help out with the investigation. They showed up.

451
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 1: They show up in Louisbourg and immediately think, um, you know,

452
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: there's this interview that I watched with a nephew and

453
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: he says, I immediately just thought, oh my god, here

454
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: we go again. Because Ray's car was parked in a

455
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: parking lot next to park near bridge over a river.

456
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: And that's exactly how they found his father's stuff, Roy

457
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: Ray's brother, nephew's father. They that's how they found his

458
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: car before they found out that he had killed himself

459
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: by jumping off a bridge. So the family immediately thought,

460
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, Ray killed himself just the exact same way,

461
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: at least according to the nephew. According to the nephew,

462
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: who really likes to be in front of the camp,

463
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: well he's here. He calls himself the official media liaison

464
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: of the family. Nobody else the family really wants to

465
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: talk about. They really don't. Um, but I mean it

466
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: was his father who killed himself, so I can understand

467
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: why he would immediately just be like, oh my god,

468
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: how why So okay, yeah, anyway, they searched the river,

469
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: they find nothing. Nobody, nobody they search all around the

470
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: antique mall, all around the town, and we'll talk about

471
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: some of that stuff in a little bit, but there's

472
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: no no Ray. Ray didn't show up. Eventually, you know,

473
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: they kind of start to scale back the search a

474
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: little bit because you can't do full on manhunt forever.

475
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: Not really. The FBI analyzes raised credit records, nothing, he's

476
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: not tired, nothing's going on. They continue to scale back

477
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. Then on July five, fisherman in the

478
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: Susquehanna River found a laptop which was kind of caked

479
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: with mud. It was sitting on the bottom, it was sitting,

480
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: it was getting on the bottom, but it was really

481
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: caked with mud and stuff like that. And uh, they

482
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: immediately turned it over to the police. I'm not sure

483
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: if it's because they thought it would be connected to

484
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: this case or not, but they turned it over to

485
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: the police. If you look at the photos of it,

486
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: it's got county property tags on the back of it.

487
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: Of course they always do that. Yeah, so I'm sure

488
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: that these guys probably wiped it off. Oh we should

489
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: probably maybe the county give us a reward. Yeah, So

490
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: they turned it over to the cops and the cops

491
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: give it to their computer forensic expert, who immediately realizes

492
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: there's something very wrong with this computer because it just

493
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: doesn't have a hard drive in it. Oh, I thought

494
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: it because it's full of water. Well that too, that

495
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: wouldn't help. Yeah, so there's no hard drive in this thing,

496
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: so obviously there's nothing. There's there's nothing they can do

497
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: about it. Well, it's got a fish screen saver fish

498
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: swimming on it. Yeah, I mean, obviously, if there's no

499
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: hard drive in a computer, it's not going to do anything.

500
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: There's all the all the fun information is on the

501
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: hard drive. Yea. Although interestingly, I will briefly mention not

502
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: that I necessarily think it pertains to this case, but

503
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: one can pull a hard drive out of a computer,

504
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: out of a laptop and plug in via a USB

505
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: either a flash drive or an external hard drive, and

506
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 1: run an operating system on that. Steve is looking at

507
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: me like I'm a crazy person. I understand that you

508
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: can do that. I don't understand the implications in this case.

509
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: I don't know that there are any, but I just

510
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: want to throw that out there as something that is possible. Well,

511
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: I think I think that I thought about this very

512
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: thing too, And that is if somebody had raised laptop

513
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: but they didn't know his password, but they wanted information

514
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: off of that, then removing removing the hard drive and

515
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: ugging it in as an external drive to another computer

516
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: would be a way around that, assuming the files on

517
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: the on the hard drive or habit themselves been encrypted. Right. Well,

518
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,719
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, maybe I'm dumb, but if the files on

519
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: the hard drive are under my profile and therefore are

520
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: locked behind my password, firewall, whatever you want to call it,

521
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: and you plug in another hard drive to operate the computer,

522
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 1: that's not what we're saying. We're saying that you remove

523
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: the hard drive from one computer and plug it into

524
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: a different computer, the hard drive into it. Hard drive

525
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: goes from original computer to second computer, and then how

526
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: are you accessing the contents of it when you well,

527
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: I've done the same thing. It's a couple of Mac

528
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: minus that I retired. So you're just you're just going

529
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: through a back door to get to the file tree

530
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: and find things that way. It's just it's it's just

531
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: opens It's like a file that appears to your desktop

532
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: and you plug in. It's like plugging in a USB

533
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: stare or something like that. It's okay, Okay, I got it.

534
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: It's much like a plug and play flash drive. Okay,

535
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: that's the part that I wasn't getting. Well, is locked

536
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: behind his password. Well, and the OS would continue to

537
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: be but the files are not. They're technically still still

538
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: just files. Now I understand it. I've done the very

539
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: same thing, right, I know what you're getting. Okay, So

540
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's interesting as well as if

541
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: he did have something to hide for some reason, you

542
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily have the hard drive in it in the

543
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: computer in the laptop out that you could have something

544
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: that you would be able to disconnect from the computer.

545
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: I know, I have a lot of friends who do

546
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: stuff like this where they, you know, don't necessarily want

547
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: people to just be able to log onto their computer

548
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: or take their actual computer. They have to have two

549
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: parts of the puzzle, right. Anyway, that's a long tangent

550
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: to say. It's possible that somebody removed the hard drive

551
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: and had access to the files otherwise was accessing the files. Okay,

552
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: it was. People would have had different motives. Yeah, it

553
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: was also missing the slide in C D C tray.

554
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love the hand motion that you're doing,

555
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: and somehow I figured that out or did by reading

556
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: of the I'm trying to remember this in two thousand five,

557
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: did they have Were we still using floppy disks back

558
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: in those days? So we go to what do we

559
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: go to? DVDs and CDs and all that stuff. It

560
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: depends on how new the model was. Yeah, that was

561
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: this was a relatively new computer. I did a bunch

562
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: of looking into this stinking computer. This thing you could

563
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: get it was a Micron, which was actually a fairly

564
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: expensive computer at the time, and you could get There

565
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: were several different options that you could get, one of

566
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: which was the CD. You could get the three and

567
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: a half inch floppy drive. That was an option because

568
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: I actually had hard I had the three and a

569
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: half inch floppy drives from not too long prior to that.

570
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: I still had some sitting around. This computer also had

571
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: the capability. I believe it's in in the photos. You'll

572
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: see when it's open and you're looking at it from

573
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: the front, there's a hole in the left side which

574
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: is actually a separate second hard drive. It had a

575
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: second external hard drive that was a push button it

576
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: could have like it it was. It was meant for

577
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: the business professional had all these different configurations. Well, I

578
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: would suspect that he had a floppy drive, just given

579
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: that it was the government and if you had to

580
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: look at historic stuff like that, you would be on

581
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: he didn't have a floppy because it was floppy or

582
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: CD or your CD is what I I understood. Now.

583
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: The information on Micron is hard because Micron went under.

584
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: They became I love It, They became MCP from Tron,

585
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: and then they went away. So the information of what

586
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 1: their models were is kind of tough to dig up.

587
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: It was battery in front, external hard drive here, CD

588
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: drive here, and the removable hard The actual physical hard

589
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: drive was somewhere center ish. That was the internal So

590
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: it was the internal hard drive that was removed right

591
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: on the beach. Okay, whatever, fine, So Joe has spoiled

592
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the fact that a few months later, I think it

593
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: was a few months. It was either two months or

594
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: in the end of October two thousand five, hard to tell.

595
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: It was October, a mom and her kid found the

596
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: hard drive and the CV tray, just like in the

597
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: mud on the banks of the river. The hard drive

598
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: was found with the CD tray. Pretty sure, maybe not me,

599
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: I think the computer, but all the pictures you see

600
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: of it are your rusty. Yeah, it's pulled out of it.

601
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess that's probably an unfair assumption on

602
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: my part that it was missing. But the hard drive

603
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: was definitely missing, and it was found a couple of

604
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: months later. Also, it was like a day where they

605
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: found the computer. Yeah, but also you know, also kicked

606
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: on mud and all that stuff. So the police decided

607
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: to turn the hard drive over it. I mean, after

608
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: they find the hard drive. Obviously they turned over to

609
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: the c I A. I believe it was service, thank you,

610
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: and the Secret Service says, no, there's no we can't know.

611
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: There's nothing on here that's usable. This is totally ruined.

612
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: So they but they say, but this, there's this private

613
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,439
Speaker 1: firm that we used to recover all the data from

614
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: the Challenger when it exploded. They're pretty good at this stuff.

615
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: Let's pass it on to them and see what they

616
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: can find. And that firm came back and said, na,

617
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: there's no, there's no way, which is interesting, Well, I said,

618
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: I said, they took it apart, they discovered it. Probably

619
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: you know that there's you know, in a hard drive,

620
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: there's a disk in there, or discs there were, I

621
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: mean not anymore, they don't make them that way anymore,

622
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, they probably found out and those things

623
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: are kind of delicate. Well they are, you know, like

624
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: some months in the water. I mean, there's gonna be

625
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: some corrosion and stuff. Chance you recover data for those yes, No,

626
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: that's the thing is the challenger. You know, it was

627
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: flung from way far up high and took some heat

628
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: and radiation, but that was a brief impact and brief amounts,

629
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: so yeah, go figure it was still usable wars when

630
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: it's sitting in the mud. Yeah, it's not to think

631
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: about the mud, does your shoes? Yeah? Your computer? Yeah? Absolutely.

632
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: And by the way that this was found, this was

633
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: found in open air on the bank, right. It was

634
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: it was like the mud, but yeah, that wasn't underwater. Yeah,

635
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: that's one thing. You can immerse something in water for

636
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: an extended period of time, but it doesn't necessarily start

637
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: to rust or oxidize and as soon as you getsosed

638
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: to air. Yeah, this thing had been sitting in the air,

639
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: so you know, as rusty as hell. Yeah, absolutely, And

640
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: you can you can look at pictures of this and

641
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: it's definitely. They're they're messed up the computer and the

642
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: hard drive both, so nothing nothing, and you know that

643
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: really let the investigators just they just we're heartbroken. I

644
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: think everybody with the case were heartbroken because they found

645
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: the hard drive and they were thinking, oh my gosh,

646
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: we're going to solve this thing. I don't see how

647
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: anybody could have looked at that thing and gotten their

648
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: hopes set. Yeah. I don't know either, but hey, it's

649
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: a clue that God knows how much time. Yeah, absolutely,

650
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: divers pretty sure that Okay, we found raised computer, that

651
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: must mean that his body somewhere down there. Do another dive.

652
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: They search extensively, nothing, they don't find anything. So finally

653
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: they decided I should mention this. I was looking on

654
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: the thing. It was on redd at some guy, some

655
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: local guy that lives in the area said that the

656
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: in the Susquehanna River people drown all the time. He says,

657
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: they all with the body always turns up. Yes, you know,

658
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 1: it might not be found by the police, but sooner

659
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: or later somebody finds it washed up and we will

660
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: talk about that more in theories stuff. Again. No, No,

661
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: it's fine, I mean yes, but it's fine. Finally, in

662
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: April two thousand nine, police reveal that prior to raise disappearance,

663
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: just a couple of days prior to raise disappearance, somebody

664
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: had used the personal computer at Ray and Patty's house

665
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: to search how to wreck a hard drive, how to

666
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: fry a hard drive, water damaged noble computer? Question about

667
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: that I was. I made some phone calls trying to

668
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: get an answers to these questions, which was why when

669
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: exactly did these searches take place? Because everybody says they

670
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: took place before he disappeared, But I've never heard anybody

671
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: say actually pinned down the actual dates when I haven't either, No,

672
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 1: I haven't either. Also haven't heard why the police waited

673
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: so long to say that that had happened. And well,

674
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes they they want to keep some certain

675
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: certain details. Absolutely, yeah, so that's why. But but I

676
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: still it's very frustrating to be I called this the

677
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: cold case to unit at this the Pennsylvania State Police,

678
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: and of course they didn't call me back, but I

679
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: wanted to answer to that to that question was exactly

680
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: when were those searches made if anybody even knows they

681
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: could have been made after he disappeared. They could have been.

682
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: Everybody assumes that they were made before, but I'm not

683
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: so sure that that's well. I think they likely, sir.

684
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: I mean, they would have had to have found that

685
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: information on the computer within a day or two of

686
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: Ray disappearing. Well. And my other thing, Joe, is that

687
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: if those searches had come up after Ray had disappeared,

688
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: that brings to light a whole another set of implications

689
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: that says somebody close to him is involved, and you

690
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: know that they would have then looked at Patty and

691
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: anybody else that had access. But I'm assuming that it

692
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: comes out the way it does because it was something

693
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: that he had done a week, a month. There's something

694
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: in advance, and they just they pulled his his search history.

695
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: I just want to put this in context to say

696
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,760
Speaker 1: that you know, Ray was retiring, and he had actually

697
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: been physically at like personally asking people in the office, hey,

698
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: how do you how do you totally wipe a hard drive?

699
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: And I have heard from other people who have been

700
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: district attorneys or served it's not uncommon that it's not

701
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: uncommon to want to do something like that after you've

702
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: left office. You know you've got a computer, you want

703
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: to wipe your stuff. He apparently kept a daily journal

704
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: on his hard drive of his own personal feeling about

705
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: things and all that stuff. And I think it's likely

706
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: that before turning that computer back over to the county,

707
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: he would have wanted to wipe it queen. And so

708
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: I don't I mean, I think, yeah, by water, that's weird. Sure,

709
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm totally willing to say, like how to fry a

710
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: hard drive with water? That's Those are all weird things,

711
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: But just his interest in how to wipe a hard

712
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: drive is not so weird to me. It's not weird

713
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: at all. But the strings, some of these strings really

714
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: set up my BS meter a lot, Like, for example,

715
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 1: of water damage to note put computer. Can you imagine

716
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: yourself entering that search string of Google? Yeah, I mean

717
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: I can't following how to wrack a hard you know, exactly,

718
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: no no roll back though You're you're assuming that Ray

719
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: has a semi decent grasp on how computers work, and

720
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: not everybody does. And he may have been googling how

721
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: do I a hard drive and then something said or

722
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: if your computer was immersed in water? He's like, oh, well,

723
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: what does that do? Water in you? Know notebook, computer

724
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: and water like he may have been followed. I felt

725
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: like I do that. We do that all the time,

726
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: where we take a phrase out of an article and

727
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: and start searching that phrase to understand what it means.

728
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 1: He may have had no idea. Um, I can only

729
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: tell you I know what happens when I dropped my

730
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: TV into the bathtub. That happens when I try it

731
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: when I drop my laptop into the bathroom. Every everybody knows.

732
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: This is why we keep telling you just stop watching

733
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: TV in the bath But here's the thing. Everybody knows

734
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: that electronics one exposed to water are going to be destroyed.

735
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 1: We all know this well, can we? And right into

736
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: this I'm sure? So can we put a pin in

737
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: this discussion and start talking about again in theories because

738
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: I think this conversation is going there. We have more

739
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: stuff to cover. Okay, thanks Steve. So I know, back

740
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: to the Appalachian Trail. Yeah, seriously. And I guess the

741
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: thing that I'll echo not about the actual actual queries,

742
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: but like, why if you search on a home computer,

743
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: like you know that search is going to get found?

744
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: Like he would have known that necessarily Ray and not

745
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: necessarily if you if you don't know, I mean, I

746
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe and if you just you just jumped

747
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: from one side to the other devon. The reason that

748
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: I say that is because his colleagues say that. His

749
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: colleagues say he would have known that we found would

750
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: have found that because I mean, he was part of

751
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: investigative teams. He was, I mean, he would have seen

752
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: this happen a lot. He would have seen that people

753
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: were able to go on a computer and see what

754
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: people were searching. He would have known that from investigations

755
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: he had seen. He would know. So that's one of

756
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: the things. Again, we'll talk about this more in theories,

757
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: but to me, that means that he planned to come home.

758
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: That was devoting. It was right. So yeah, I know,

759
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: I think you're right about that, and that's why we'll

760
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: talk about it later. But I have my own theory

761
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: about these search strings. Awesome and how they up there. Okay,

762
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: we will talk about them a night, That's okay. But

763
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: that's the last we heard in terms of details details

764
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: about the case. In July of two thousand and eleven,

765
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 1: Laura Greeker that the adopted daughter petitioned to have the

766
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: court declare Ray legally dead, which they granted, so he

767
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 1: is legally dead now. It had been six years, had

768
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: been yeah, six years. This is one of the other things.

769
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: There have been a lot of sightings quote unquote sightings

770
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: of Ray, and actually, as it turns out, the police,

771
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: every time they get one of these reports, they follow

772
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: up on it. It sounds like everybody that I've heard

773
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: who's actually seen the evidence says that really the bulk

774
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: of the evidence are these Manila envelopes that the police

775
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: have of each of the quote unquote sightings and how

776
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: they follow it up with it. This one, however, was

777
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: pretty interesting. It was literally one day after Ray was

778
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: declared legally dead, man in Utah was arrested and he

779
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: strongly resembled Ray. He was being charged with a misdemeanor,

780
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: but he refused to give his name. Apparently he resembled Ray.

781
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: He had the same height, the same weight, he had

782
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: the same lips, and the same wrinkles. Lips, yeah, and

783
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 1: like very similar wrinkles. And I've seen pictures of both

784
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: these guys. He does look like right. Uh. And so

785
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: the authorities in Pennsylvania immediately sent Ray's fingerprints to Utah,

786
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh my god, we found him or I mean,

787
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, we found him and it turns out no match.

788
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: They eventually identified the guy and he had no he

789
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: wasn't Ray. If I had to guess, this guy was

790
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: pulling one of those stupid things that people tell each other.

791
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: If you don't tell, if you say nothing and you

792
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: don't tell them who you are, then they can't book

793
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: you like I've oh, yeah, one of those what are

794
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: those hacks to get out of arrest. Yes, it's it's yeah,

795
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: that's that's that's what this guy. It sounds like that's

796
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: what this guy, and he just had the bad misfortune

797
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: to happen to look like exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Actually,

798
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, in the anterim between when they when they

799
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: thought he might be ray and when they had confirmed

800
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 1: that he wasn't, he probably got treated better. Probably, frankly,

801
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,919
Speaker 1: probably he did your Yeah, he's got to tell all

802
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: of his other homeless place. Dude, if you don't say

803
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: who you are, suddenly the upgrade yourself all the other

804
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: guys out. You get great food, you got to try it,

805
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: and they start calling you sir. It's crazy. Theories. You

806
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: can talk about theories. Okay, we're pretty close let's talk

807
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: about this first theory. Never do it, let's do it.

808
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: Let's do it this time, we'll do it. The first

809
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: theory is that Ray was murdered, and there are a

810
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: couple of different ways this could have gone. Um, you know,

811
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: he was prosecuting murderers and rapists and generally bad people

812
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: even before he was yeah, yeah, even before he was

813
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: just attorney, and then before he came to Pennsylvania. Yeah,

814
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: and then again you know when he was well, no,

815
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: before that, before when they even before he moved to Pennsylvania,

816
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: prior to Pennsylvania, and then when he was he was

817
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: also doing that, sorry, his whole career. Basically, we can

818
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: just say he was charging bad people with the stuff

819
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: they should have been charged with. So it's it's possible

820
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: that one of those things could have come back and

821
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: bit him. However, the fifth we're just going to get

822
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: this one out of the way, the one that everybody

823
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: likes to say, is somebody close to the Jerry Sandusky

824
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: scandal scandal killed Ray, and furthermore, they actually killed Roy

825
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: as well. Now here's how this theory plays out. Steve

826
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: is like gonna just explode. But here's how this theory

827
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: plays out. Roy gets killed in this theory, gets killed

828
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: just about when the first allegations of Jerry Sandusky's was

829
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: he would have maybe gone onto Ray's radar to set

830
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: an example to Ray. So well, so somebody comes up

831
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: to Ray and says, hey, you know, I heard your

832
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: brother died. I'm really sorry about that. Um yeah, I'd

833
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: be a shame if, um, you know, somebody started prosecuting

834
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: this case. It's pretty big, pretty high profile. Um yeah,

835
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: it'd be a shame. I don't buy it. I don't

836
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: buy this at all. But this is something you will

837
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: see on the internet a lot. Here's the deal is

838
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 1: that State alumni and other heavies like that, they wouldn't

839
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: be going after the d A. They would be actually

840
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: having Sandusky murdered the last guy that you try and

841
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: strong arm. Well, so that the that theory actually often

842
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: gets tight in with Sandusky just ended up being the

843
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: fall guy. This is a huge ring. Everybody in the

844
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 1: higher ups in the Penn State Athletic Department are participating

845
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: in this. Blah blah blah. I don't buy any of that.

846
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 1: I should like for the record, I do not buy

847
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: any of that. But that's kind of where this theory

848
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: ends up is that it's the alums are weren't mad

849
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: ad that that this whole like abuse thing was happening.

850
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: They were mad that somebody might prosecute it, and that

851
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: it was this huge ring and they were trying to

852
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 1: keep it under wraps. Sandusky is a red Harry. Yeah,

853
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: basically in this theory I don't buy. I personally feel

854
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: there's red erring to the Greek arcase I would agree

855
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: I agree to. But so that's how that theory tends

856
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: to run. Another point to bring up is that, right,

857
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: if somebody involved with the Sandusky case, we're trying to

858
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: silence people, they wouldn't be silencing the day. They'd be

859
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: silencing witnesses, which I know is a harsh thing to say,

860
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:34,760
Speaker 1: but they would be going after the witnesses. They wouldn't

861
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: be going out. I think that. I think that what

862
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: they would have been just like they would have paid

863
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: Sandowsky to retire a lot easier than murdering people. They

864
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 1: would have paid them and they said, dude, you take

865
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: your retirement, you moved to the other side of the country.

866
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:48,919
Speaker 1: We don't ever want to hear from you again. Yeah, yeah,

867
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: change your name. So if you get arrested exactly. That's

868
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: what's so, that's I totally agree, totally agree. But we

869
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: do have to talk about this because that's whatever. That's

870
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,439
Speaker 1: like the first thing that comes up to everybody. Okay,

871
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: So if we move away from the Sandusky angle, then

872
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: then then where is what what else is in the

873
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: murder most foul category? Foul? And one more thing about

874
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: Sandusky I'm sorry before we move away that people bring

875
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: up as being kind of weird is that there's literally

876
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: no mention of Ray greek Car being involved with the

877
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: Sandusky case in greek Car's stuff. So like the person

878
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: who took over for him as d A had access

879
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: to literally all his files and didn't know that greek

880
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: Car or that Ray sorry had actually even been a

881
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: part of Sandusky at all. There there was nothing, There

882
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: was no fire, but he wasn't he wasn't pursuing a case.

883
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: It was but he did a police but he did

884
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 1: at the police did it, and we have all that

885
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: information from the police because they were the one. I'm

886
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: sure that's office would have had a file on on

887
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: it probably, So it is it's a little weird, but

888
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: also it's not really that weird. Well, it's not that weird,

889
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,959
Speaker 1: because I mean, this is where the conspiracy theory maybe

890
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: does make sense, because if there is embarrassing material about

891
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: Sandusky and the d A file, is it possible that

892
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: somebody could have bribed somebody worked in that office to

893
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: remove the file and destroy it. That's entirely possible. But

894
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: but then murder rays that now. But yeah, paperwork gets

895
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: misplaced in files, accidentally get corrupted all the time. Absolutely,

896
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: that's much more plausible to me than this d A

897
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: seven years later. Well, although it would also give a

898
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: reason to have the hard drive be destroyed, right if

899
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: they thought, well, there's obviously copies of these on the

900
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,919
Speaker 1: hard drive, then we've got to destroy the hard drive

901
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: as well. But again I don't do you can you

902
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 1: want to talk about the hard drive for a second?

903
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: Do you mind if we if we jump to that

904
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 1: since we're talking about it's kind of hard drive. The

905
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: hard drive in that computer is held in place by

906
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: a single set screw. Have you ever seen a set

907
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: screw in a in a laptop. It's a set screw

908
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: and a and a like a you know, pull button, no, no,

909
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: no no. On the Micron, it was a set screw.

910
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: I looked at that again, I was pulling up the

911
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: manuals and it's a single set screw that holds the

912
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: freaking thing in. And those set screws are always teeny tiny,

913
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: like the size of something that's in your eye glass.

914
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 1: You're saying that it might have just gotten knocked out accidentally, Okay,

915
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: that the whole thing goes in the water and it

916
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: begins to corrode, and that set screw is either a

917
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: not high quality and it degrades enough that the thing

918
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: just pops out, or be it just comes loose. I mean,

919
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: I've had computers where there was a screw that constantly

920
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: was loosening itself and I had to tighten it back up.

921
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 1: So when you're talking about somebody was pulling the hard

922
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: drive to do all this stuff, I don't think it's

923
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 1: nearly as nefarious as that. I just think that it

924
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: was a crappy screw that easily came out. There's why

925
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't think that, and that is that if it

926
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: fell out on impact with the water, then it wouldn't

927
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 1: have been found on the river bank. I don't see how.

928
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: I mean, hard drives are not positively went neither a computers.

929
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: But the computer was found near the bank. I mean,

930
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: you can wash up. I drawt like action pushes things.

931
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: I'm not disagreeing that. I don't think that it fell

932
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: out immediately, but I think that it came out and

933
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: got caught in the current at some point. But this,

934
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 1: this this crap happens, and I don't think that it

935
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 1: was you know, I don't think that it's this amazingly secured,

936
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: welded in place hard drive like it's hard. It's not,

937
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: but it's negatively buyant and it's not going to float

938
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,959
Speaker 1: up onto the bank, which is where it was to score.

939
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,479
Speaker 1: But if there's current, the current is going to shove

940
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: things around the round the bottom. That's why rocks that

941
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: are in the middle of the river end up on

942
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: the bank. Well probably, I think more likely it's just

943
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: going to flow downstream. But you know, I think probably

944
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: somebody just pitched him over the side of the bridge,

945
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: you know, And god knows when it could have been

946
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: any time. It could have been months after the murder

947
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 1: or the disappearance. I should say, well, we're in there

948
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: in the murder at the moment. In five minutes, you

949
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: can't say it. Yeah, So just one quick thing before

950
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: we let Joe lose on this case. Uh. The other

951
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,600
Speaker 1: thing I guess is that when the initial report was

952
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: released by the police, they said one call, one inbound

953
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: call was made to raise cellphone on the day of

954
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: his disappearance. And then Patty started talking and saying, well,

955
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: I was calling his cellphone all all night. It was

956
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: going to voicemails, going to voicemail, but they were inbound calls.

957
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: That's a that's a good question. I don't know the

958
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: answer to this. But if your phone is shut off

959
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: and his was, and it goes straight to voicemail, does

960
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: that actually get logged in as a call? It doesn't, doesn't, Okay.

961
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: But so eventually, somehow, I'm not totally clear how somebody

962
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: gets ahold of the phone own records and says, oh no,

963
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,959
Speaker 1: actually there's there's a lot of calls in and out

964
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: both on the day that Radus appeared to the number. Uh.

965
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: And so the police edit their report to say, okay, well,

966
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 1: find all the calls were routine on that day. That's

967
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: a little weird term routine. Mean, that's a good question. Yeah, yeah,

968
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 1: it's really hard to tell from records. I think probably

969
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: what it means is that none of the numbers stood

970
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: out as odd. They were all numbers that would have

971
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: normally been contacted either way from his cell phone. That

972
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: would be what how I would assume that meant how

973
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: I would assume them in what I assume that meant? Yeah. Um.

974
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: And then there are a lot of people out there

975
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: saying that because this was a county owned cell phone,

976
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: the phone records should be a matter of public records,

977
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: So why don't we see those. It's not such a

978
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: big deal for me. But the fact that the police

979
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: initially said, well there was only one call, that's a

980
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: little suspicious. I guess, just tiny bit there withhold a

981
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: lot of information. Often they do. Yeah, I'm not going

982
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,240
Speaker 1: to point a finger about So Joe's got some stuff

983
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 1: about the murder, not necessarily, but I just you know,

984
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: the search strings too. And as I said earlier, they

985
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: set up my book might B S detector in a

986
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: large way, especially the one about water and electronics, And

987
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: it occurs to me they didn't have to necessarily be

988
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: entered by ray. And because the guy, I assuming he

989
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: was abducted and murdered, which I think he probably was,

990
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: I would agree with this, and I'm actually on board

991
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, and these people would have his driver's

992
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: license with his address on it, and they would have

993
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: his house keys, and maybe there was something they wanted.

994
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure that he would have had his

995
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: laptop with them in that car. Well, that's actually a

996
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: big point of contention. It is it is, and so um,

997
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: they might have actually driven to his home and you know,

998
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: made sure that Patty wasn't home, gone inside, found the laptop,

999
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: which maybe they wanted for one reason or another because

1000
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: maybe the information that was on it, and then just

1001
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 1: for good measure, they entered a few search strings as

1002
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: kind of a red hair and then you know what

1003
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: on their way. You know, it may it may well

1004
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: be that Ray did not even do any of that

1005
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: searching from his computer. That's true, although I guess, and

1006
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: maybe this is misplaced faith, but I would assume that

1007
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: whoever found those search terms would have been a computer

1008
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,720
Speaker 1: expert and would have said, hey, that's weird. These search

1009
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: terms were entered at nine pm, when Patty was at

1010
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: the gym or something. Don't I mean, don't you think

1011
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: that that would be something that they would have And

1012
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 1: I agree, I totally agree with you that like the

1013
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: fact that nobody ever says, this is when the search

1014
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 1: terms were made. I agree, that's weird, and they might

1015
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: not have actually considered it important to mark the exact

1016
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 1: date and time that the searches were made that were

1017
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 1: really more important. I don't know that when you're doing

1018
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 1: that kind of forensic analysis, when you consider important comes

1019
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: into play. I think there's there's process and you you

1020
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: go by the numbers. This, this, this, send, this and

1021
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: this are what I log in about every detail. Yeah,

1022
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: I don't think that's important. I canna write it down.

1023
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: So I don't think that. I don't think that's the

1024
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: way it works. I don't really know that they had

1025
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: an actual forensic computer expert do this. That might have

1026
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: just been a detective who did it. And so you

1027
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: just I can't I can't argue with there. There has

1028
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 1: been a certain amount of criticism of the of the investigation. Yeah,

1029
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: although I don't think I mean, I think they did

1030
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: everything they probably could probably did, And there's nothing wrong

1031
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: with having a detective go looking for search strings. I

1032
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: mean maybe at that time it was like couldn't really

1033
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: be understood. They were just looking to see what he

1034
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: was up to on his computer. Yeah, they didn't really

1035
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: care about the precise time and date that they did it,

1036
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: all right, And and that's why the search string. You know,

1037
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 1: what does water do to a laptop kind of sets

1038
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: off bells for me. Well, but he may he may wonder, Okay,

1039
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: does that just fry the system or does that actually

1040
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,240
Speaker 1: erase the hard drives? When I was getting out earlier,

1041
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: I personally I think that I think that he's in

1042
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: a shallow grave somewhere, and I think that it just

1043
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: has something to do with a prior case, probably a

1044
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: crime of opportunity that a hole right there put me

1045
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,320
Speaker 1: away for seven years. I'm getting my revenge right exactly.

1046
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 1: And so this is this is why he was on

1047
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: Route one, which you've looked at on Google Maps. I'm sure. Yeah,

1048
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: it's a nice long drive to the woods. Lots of

1049
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,919
Speaker 1: side roads, lots of places to pull off, go down

1050
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: side road, pull the shovel out of the back of

1051
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: your red Cooper Mini and dig a hole and bury

1052
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: your hard drive. No need to throw it in the

1053
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 1: river right next to where you parked your car. Yeah yeah,

1054
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: And that makes absolutely no sense that he did that,

1055
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: And it makes every every amount of sense to me

1056
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: that whoever did the deed would plant that evidence there,

1057
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: and so I'm not totally I's gonna totally be on

1058
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: the rebel possibility they planted those search strings too. Yeah,

1059
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: that's fair. That's my two bits. Okay, so next theory

1060
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: is suicide. I don't give this one a lot of credence.

1061
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 1: Most people don't know. I mean that the one thing

1062
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: that I will admit kind of lens credence to this

1063
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: is the fact that he was unusually tired and kind

1064
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: of grumpy and depressed. I mean, I think he was

1065
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: probably depressed. Yeah, there was I read you read the

1066
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 1: same thing. I know, but by one of his co

1067
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: workers who worked with them for twenty years, he said

1068
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: he was in a strange mood that way. Yeah, he

1069
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: had been in a strange mood. His longtime girlfriend Patty said,

1070
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: um that he was so tired that he that she

1071
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: told him that if he continued to be that tired

1072
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: that he needed to go to the doctor. Um. You know,

1073
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: he just seemed generally lethargic and kind of to be

1074
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 1: displaying the symptoms of somebody who would be depressed. But

1075
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: I don't, I just don't. I don't buy it. I don't.

1076
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: I don't buy it because well he he you know,

1077
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: seen the effect of his brother's suicide and everybody around him.

1078
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: That's a big deterrent. Yeah, and so you see that.

1079
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: I just like, you know, do I want to be

1080
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 1: this big of a flaming jerk to the people around me?

1081
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: And probably not? Yeah, probably not. He didn't strike me

1082
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: as that kind of guy. And then also to do

1083
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: it like almost exactly like your brother did. That's that

1084
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: to me is really like the big one is like,

1085
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: even if you were going to kill yourself and your

1086
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: brother had killed himself before, why would you make it

1087
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: look so similar to his suicide. Although if you if

1088
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: you were, you know, wanting to murder him, on the

1089
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 1: other hand, you were aware of the details of his

1090
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: brother's suicide, you might just mirror that. You might just

1091
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 1: do that exactly. There's an issue with the suicide theory. Okay,

1092
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: what's that the water level? That's true, it was pretty low. Yeah, well,

1093
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: we'll talk about let's talk about the let's just I'm

1094
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: going to pose a new theory and then we can

1095
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 1: talk about Okay, I'll back off on that. A theory

1096
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: that I never really see, which is fair because I

1097
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of issues with it. But

1098
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: also I guess it's possible that he was trying to

1099
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,959
Speaker 1: dispose of the computer, albeit in a dumb way, right

1100
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: by throwing it over a bridge. Is this it is theory.

1101
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: I didn't actually looked at too closely that ridge, and

1102
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: there's sidewalks on that bridge. There are, yeah, there's sidewalks

1103
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: and a low railing across the bridge, and it's I

1104
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: mean it's but it's not that tall of a bridge

1105
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 1: or anything like that. But you know, I guess it

1106
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: is possible that he was trying to dispose of his

1107
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: computer in a dumb way again and just fell in,

1108
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,640
Speaker 1: which again I don't think is a very good theory,

1109
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: but it's possible, and I don't see people talking about

1110
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: that as a thing. People say, well, he would have

1111
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: intentionally jumped, but nobody says, what if he just accidentally fell.

1112
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: It seems kind of unlikely. It seems unlikely. Well, that's

1113
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: that's the same thing we talked about this when we

1114
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 1: were talking about the Luchad story. Yeah, exactly, it's super unlikely.

1115
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: And actually there are some comparisons with the luch Store

1116
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: story in that half the reporting that you'll hear says

1117
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: that the river at that time was like really low,

1118
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,479
Speaker 1: like below waist level low, and the bridge is pretty low.

1119
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:55,080
Speaker 1: It's not it's not really high. I don't ap okay,

1120
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: I mean around here on April fifteen, the rivers are high. Yeah.

1121
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: And so according to the next you on dateline, which

1122
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: I guess we are going to say is a pretty

1123
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: credible source, the water was reasonably high, um, due to

1124
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 1: rain and ice melts. But again, on the other hand,

1125
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: it's April in Pennsylvania. It's cold, it's cold, and um,

1126
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: apparently the Susquehanna River is full of islands and fast

1127
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 1: rapids um places where brush pile up fast get packed

1128
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,959
Speaker 1: in that could usually easily hide a body. There's also

1129
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: a damn pretty far down. Oh this is this is

1130
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: you pulling this quote from the police chief. I remember this, yeah,

1131
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: because he really cringed when he made the phrase and

1132
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: disintegrate a body. Yeah, But I mean also there's a

1133
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 1: dam that apparently a body could get kind of wedged

1134
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: up against. Although again, on the other hand, a different

1135
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: police officer interviewed in this same news story says that

1136
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: the water was crystal clear and you could literally see

1137
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: to the bottom and it's pretty much just a flat

1138
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,280
Speaker 1: rock with some like silt, but not very not a

1139
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: very thick layer of silty mud stuff on top of it.

1140
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: So I get, you know, it's just kind of like

1141
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: all of these stories are conflicting. There's no way for

1142
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: me to know definitively what the river looked like on

1143
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: that day. So I don't think he probably could have

1144
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: died falling off the bridge. To be honest, I think he.

1145
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: I don't think that that happened suicide or otherwise. I

1146
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: don't think that he died by falling in the river.

1147
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 1: We suicide too. They probably going back to suicide, I

1148
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: should say that if he had committed suicide, I don't

1149
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: think they would have found the laptop there exactly. Yeah.

1150
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: And in addition to that, you know, maybe he was depressed,

1151
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,959
Speaker 1: and certainly mental illness and depression and things like that

1152
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 1: take all sorts of different forms. But at least on paper,

1153
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: he had a pretty good life. He was about to retire,

1154
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: he had a lot of money, he had, he was

1155
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: planning on traveling, he had a love that pension. Yeah,

1156
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there was a lot of stuff going

1157
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: from him for him. And frankly, this is kind of

1158
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: going into the next theory. But if he if he wanted,

1159
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: if he was so inclined to escape his life in

1160
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: one way or another, it would have been pretty easy

1161
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 1: for him to do. So this is the Dorothy Arnold theory,

1162
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: the Dorothy Kay he ran off the joints circus. Yeah.

1163
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: So the next theory is that he ran away for

1164
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: a new life, which is pretty unlikely. I called the circus,

1165
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: by the way, did you have they said here? They

1166
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: would say that, though, wait, did you talk to the

1167
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: bearded lady or the wolfan because the wolfman's a liar.

1168
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I talked to twins. Oh those two

1169
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 1: they check their information against each other. So yeah, um, okay, well,

1170
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna I'm gonna present this in a in

1171
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: a series of But then, oh boy, yeah, start ran

1172
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: away to start a new life is really unlikely. But

1173
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: then there's the dark haired smoking woman. Everybody likes a

1174
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: dark haired smoking woman. Yeah that's true. So yeah, according

1175
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: to a lot of credible sightings, Ray was seen with

1176
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 1: a woman with dark hair who was smoking. Now, a

1177
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: lot of reports have them eating lunch together, but it

1178
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: turns out no, no, actually that was a different middle

1179
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: aged man who drove a mini Cooper, who was hanging

1180
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: out with a woman, yeah, who looked kind of like Ray,

1181
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: who also was hanging out with a woman who matched

1182
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: vaguely the description of the woman who was seen with Ray.

1183
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: So that adds some interesting, complicated stuff to it. However,

1184
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 1: later in the day in the antiques, in the antique shop,

1185
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 1: in the antique mall um this there was a dark

1186
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: haired woman who was smoking who was seen with Ray.

1187
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 1: Apparently they would kind of walk together and talk and

1188
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: then go into different stores and then come back together

1189
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: and walk and talk again. She was smoking, so was

1190
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: she and raised car hard to tell. Okay, So that's point.

1191
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 1: It's unlikely that he ran away to start a new life.

1192
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 1: But what's up with the fact that his daughter literally

1193
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: just asked him to come back on the a press conference?

1194
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: Dune done. She just said, Dad, I love you, come back.

1195
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: And that was that. What date was that? It was

1196
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: like two days later? Three days later? Maybe that's Ye'll

1197
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 1: just take off. That makes total We'll talk about that

1198
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: in a minute. Okay, it's unlikely every time, it's unlikely

1199
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: that he left to start a new life, But what's

1200
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: up with his fascination with mel Wiley? This is true

1201
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 1: He had apparently a really deep fascination with this guy

1202
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: named mel Wiley, who was the Hickney County, Ohio sheriff,

1203
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 1: who disappeared with a whole lot of like really similar coincidences,

1204
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 1: like he parked his car with all of his belongings

1205
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 1: inside near a body of water with no signs of

1206
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: foul play and told his girlfriend he was going to

1207
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 1: do something and then disappeared forever. Just just don't ever

1208
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: tell their girlfriends we're gonna go do one thing. He

1209
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: was going to go buy swim trunks, Like, why is

1210
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: that the thing though, the first thing that pops into

1211
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: your mind? Yeah? Maybe what How do we know he

1212
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 1: is that fascinated with mel Wiley because he talked about

1213
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: all the time. He would it was it was it

1214
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: was kind of his go to It was his favorite

1215
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,439
Speaker 1: unsolved mystery. It was his go to story. Yeah, it's

1216
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 1: it's kind of like you've got a couple of them

1217
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: that you will just if we're sitting down and having

1218
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: a beer, you will bring up the we're talking about

1219
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: the again, like he's it may have been his go

1220
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: to things when it sounds like, well here's the deal, guys,

1221
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: it says he's out there, you know, living under an

1222
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: assumed name. We got on the on the jota. Obviously

1223
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: this mystery. Okay, so it's super unlikely that he ran

1224
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: away to start new life, except for that, as you

1225
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 1: guys mentioned, he had actually run away before, well not

1226
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: for more than about a day. It was a day fair,

1227
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,200
Speaker 1: but that was reported when he was married to his

1228
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,680
Speaker 1: second wife, Emma. They had a fight because she bought

1229
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: some boddie furniture that he was not super stoked on.

1230
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,480
Speaker 1: So he just got in the car and drove to

1231
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: Ohio from Pennsylvania to go see an Indians game. And

1232
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: apparently that was like one of the first things that

1233
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 1: Comps died to called. They called. They called down and said,

1234
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 1: does anybody anybody matching that? Did Ray Greegard? And he's

1235
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: he there? And they said no, and they said rap.

1236
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: Here's the thing is that I I don't see anything

1237
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: weird about this because if their relationship was as it

1238
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: has been described, he may have been so hot under

1239
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: the caller that his first instinct was I need to leave. Yeah, yeah,

1240
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 1: I need to leave. But this this is why it

1241
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 1: doesn't bother me that he has disappeared before. That was

1242
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: a very different relationship and he while it was reported

1243
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: he did it once, he may have actually done it

1244
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: several times in the past where he was so furious

1245
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 1: I gotta go. So that's that's why his daughter making

1246
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 1: the plea. She's like, damn a dad, you get mad

1247
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: and you go hang out at the Red Lion for

1248
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 1: three days and you won't talk to us, You jerk,

1249
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: just call me like. That's that's the way I take

1250
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 1: her statement. I think so too, you know, at that point.

1251
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: But as far as the mysterious dark haired woman, the

1252
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 1: possibility that you know, maybe he had taken up with

1253
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: somebody new and he wanted to run off and live

1254
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: with her, but she could have been something else. She

1255
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 1: might have been bait. Yeah, that's one of the things

1256
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 1: that that really sticks out to me. Yeah, yeah, I

1257
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 1: think she was bait more than more likely than anything else.

1258
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 1: She never came forward. You noticed that. I mean it

1259
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: could there could could have been an embarrassment factor if

1260
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 1: she maybe was screwing around with gray behind everybody's back.

1261
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 1: But it was considered a ladies man. But here's the

1262
01:08:52,400 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: thing is he wasn't married, Yeah right, I mean there

1263
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: would like it would have been fairly easy for him

1264
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: to just walk away from the relationship he was in.

1265
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: He was about to retire, he wouldn't be working with

1266
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: Patty anymore. And she even says, like point blank, if

1267
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 1: he didn't want to be with me anymore, he wouldn't

1268
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: have been with me. I know that. So I I

1269
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:15,160
Speaker 1: do agree it's possible that this woman was bait. I

1270
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:17,679
Speaker 1: mean the kind of the interactions that people described between

1271
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: the two of them, where they would just suddenly find

1272
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: each other again in the crowd. Now it is a

1273
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: little bit. It's a little bit like she was trying

1274
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: really hard to establish a rapport with him, or him

1275
01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: with her, which is fair, right. If he was laid

1276
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: in and he just wanted to flirt with her, that's fine.

1277
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,759
Speaker 1: But one of them or both of them were trying

1278
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: to establish that rapport, and so I would think, and

1279
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: I think what happened if she said, you know what

1280
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: I do is I'm an antiques to you that I

1281
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: sell to a lot of these people. If you want

1282
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: to come out and look at my van, I've got

1283
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: some great stuff and it's going to be so much

1284
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 1: cheaper because they're going to mark it up, you know,

1285
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 1: and you'll say, so much money, so just come out

1286
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: to my van and have a look sick. Well, you know,

1287
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 1: if if we're gonna pull the hard the Devon did,

1288
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: which is what's the theory that hasn't been ever put

1289
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,240
Speaker 1: out there? And I know that this will actually play

1290
01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 1: into the next theory is what if he was bait

1291
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:13,559
Speaker 1: for her? In other words, he may have been involved

1292
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: in something trying to pull somebody forward in his extract

1293
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: information in some other kind of operation that nobody knew

1294
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: about who's talking, and the whole thing went sideways. So

1295
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: how could down sideways so sideways? Say again, yeah, thinking sideways,

1296
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: we're doing it. The next theory that that Steve was

1297
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 1: just referencing, which his thing fits in nicely with, I guess,

1298
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: is yeah, it's crazy. It's like we have a script

1299
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 1: or something sans the next theory, you have a misspelling

1300
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 1: in the script. The next theory that Steve's most recent

1301
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:01,639
Speaker 1: thing uh matches pretty well into is that it's it's

1302
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 1: possible I guess that Ray is in witness protection. I

1303
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,879
Speaker 1: think this is a solid five out of seven stars.

1304
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:12,559
Speaker 1: Five stars, just it's a five out of seven. It's perfect. Okay,

1305
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Okay, Okay, So here's

1306
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 1: here's why this works. Every time somebody requests any documents

1307
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: relating to this case from the FBI or the local

1308
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: law enforcement, it is heavily redacted. And they always say, well,

1309
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: he was the d A, so like we're redacting names

1310
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: and things like that. But apparently almost all of the

1311
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 1: documents that you request either you never hear back about,

1312
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: like Joe not getting calls back, or it's just like

1313
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 1: super super adaptive. I didn't request any of the documents,

1314
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: so like, I don't actually know that for a fact,

1315
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: and Steve shaking his head, like he apparently requested documents

1316
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 1: and got them from the FBI and they weren't redacted

1317
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 1: at all. It was like, not a black mark on it.

1318
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 1: But I've never seen an FBI document without a black

1319
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 1: mark on it, and nor have I. I I if dead

1320
01:12:00,680 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 1: Spin did several years back, did an fo I freume

1321
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:12,559
Speaker 1: of information request for docs, and it's redacted in the

1322
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 1: most generic form of being redacted. Social Security numbers, agents, names,

1323
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,440
Speaker 1: like all of the normal things that would be redacted.

1324
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: It's the most boring seventy page pdf I've ever read through. Yeah,

1325
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 1: you know they I read it too, and I really

1326
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 1: would have liked it. If somebody to give me a

1327
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: heads up that none of it had anything to do

1328
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 1: with the end of the investigation into the two thousand

1329
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 1: and five disappearance. Six favorite work would And eventually I

1330
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 1: was reading and reading. Then I started spinning through and

1331
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 1: stopping looking at the date eighty six, spin spin spin out,

1332
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: still eighty six, And yeah, I mean that's all it was. Yeah,

1333
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 1: but here's the thing I'm saying. You guys saw this.

1334
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: They checked with the CIA, they didn't ANIME check with

1335
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 1: the c HEY, and there was a redaction on that

1336
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:10,720
Speaker 1: three names versions of his name that could be used. Yeah.

1337
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 1: But but the thing about it is, as as you

1338
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 1: know that the internet went bonkers, they want bonkers bonkers

1339
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: exactly the word. Yeah. So okay, but it's redacted, Steve,

1340
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: It's super really redacted. I know what you're saying, though,

1341
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 1: is that? Oh no, I actually go ahead, Do you

1342
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Yeah, Well, I think these documents

1343
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: were so heavily redacted because they had to put on

1344
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:43,560
Speaker 1: the appearance of investigating this assiduously. Okay, yeah, exactly. I

1345
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,200
Speaker 1: mean that's the thing. It's the it's on the one hand,

1346
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: on the other hand right, On the one hand, if

1347
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:52,360
Speaker 1: he were in witness protection, why are this public search?

1348
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:55,640
Speaker 1: Why this all this money, why this extensive thing. But

1349
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 1: on the other hand, if they didn't look for him

1350
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: in books suspicious and like they were high eating something,

1351
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:02,720
Speaker 1: so they had to put this on and that's what

1352
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 1: you do, I wouldn't be the face I just made.

1353
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: But the thing about it is is that's that's and

1354
01:14:08,800 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: and there's an easy way to do that, and that

1355
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 1: you have like random word generation generators and then you

1356
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:16,759
Speaker 1: print them out and then you have some administrative assistant

1357
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 1: just readact about you know, about two thirds of it

1358
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,680
Speaker 1: and it's going to be inintelligible, but it's perfect, you know.

1359
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: And so people think, because you have massive files on Ray,

1360
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: that you've actually been working hard at it. But you've

1361
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: actually been not wasting any resources at all. Well, it's

1362
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 1: hard when his computer shows up, Yeah, right, when his

1363
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: computer shows up, and they go, uh, yeah, I thought

1364
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 1: we disposed of that really well in the Yeah. Yeah.

1365
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:43,840
Speaker 1: The other thing that people say, he'll see this said

1366
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: is um. But but Ray wouldn't have been eligible for

1367
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 1: witness protection because he was a public prosecutor, and prosecutors

1368
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 1: by definition cannot be witnesses, so they are not eligible

1369
01:14:55,479 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 1: for witness protection. Is that not true? No, it is true. Okay,

1370
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 1: So the way, I actually consulted one of our experts

1371
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 1: on this um and he confirmed exactly what I was thinking.

1372
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 1: His name is Stephen. Thinks Stephen um not you shut up, um.

1373
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 1: But what he was what he said is exactly what

1374
01:15:14,120 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: I was thinking, and that is that if within the

1375
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 1: scope of your position as a public prosecutor you see

1376
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 1: something or find something out that pertains to the case,

1377
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 1: you are not a witness. You're a prosecutor. If, however,

1378
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: in your personal life you witness something like a murder

1379
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 1: and then that crazy human being starts to come after you,

1380
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: you are a witness to that crime. You're not a prosecutor,

1381
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 1: and therefore you are eligible for witness protection. Your job

1382
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 1: does not have an influence on your life as a

1383
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:54,040
Speaker 1: private citizen. Correct. However, typically witness protection isn't this like Hollywood,

1384
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 1: We're just gonna while you away for the rest of

1385
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,479
Speaker 1: your life and give you a new life and everything's

1386
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 1: going to be fine. It's we're going to protect you

1387
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,800
Speaker 1: until litigation is done and then you're on your own.

1388
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:07,080
Speaker 1: It's that that Steve Martin movie. No, it's not. Do

1389
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 1: you know the movie I'm talking about, it's not. It's

1390
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: not Lily Hammer, right, it's not. I mean, it's not

1391
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: any of those things. You go away for a little while,

1392
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: you stay safe until that person has been prosecuted and

1393
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,240
Speaker 1: the threat has dissolved, and then they return you to

1394
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 1: your life. And besides which you know what exactly what

1395
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:30,599
Speaker 1: Hannis crimes happened in Louisburg on the afternoon, Well, it's

1396
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 1: not necessarily that that would have been when he witnessed

1397
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:36,680
Speaker 1: the crime. That's when they evaporated. But that's when you know,

1398
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: that was the time. Yeah, exactly when they evaporated him,

1399
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:42,560
Speaker 1: when the aliens came for him. Yeah, were are the

1400
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:46,720
Speaker 1: aliens in our theories? They're not. No, I mean I

1401
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 1: just did Phobos. I don't know what you want from me.

1402
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: I want those two in every story. Okay, Well, my

1403
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:59,560
Speaker 1: next theory is that it was the alien picabras. He

1404
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 1: did a new sitting judge to judge their cases of

1405
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: intergalactic The only thing that could make this more like

1406
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,120
Speaker 1: you're eight year old girl making this up. So there

1407
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 1: were if you if you started twirling your hair, because

1408
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:17,640
Speaker 1: the look on your face. Also, there were uniforms and

1409
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 1: they were flying on ships that were sunshine at rainbows.

1410
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 1: You have one last thing here, what is this? I

1411
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:28,599
Speaker 1: haven't they actually, Yeah, let's talk about that theory, because

1412
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 1: that last thing we already talked about. Okay, I mean

1413
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: this just seems so obvious to me. It was the

1414
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 1: I R S. It was April, for God's sake. Yeah,

1415
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,599
Speaker 1: they're coming after him for taxes. Well every April fifteenth

1416
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:43,559
Speaker 1: they make an example out of one text on tax payer.

1417
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 1: But usually they like advertise that though usually they're like,

1418
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 1: you remember what happened array over here? What happened to you?

1419
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: It's on the front page of the website. Think ye,

1420
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 1: don't miss the deadline. Okay, Well that's it. Do you

1421
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: have anything else you want to add? I will be honest.

1422
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 1: I still believe that he was murdered, and I still

1423
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:12,799
Speaker 1: say that he's in a shallow grave in some field

1424
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,400
Speaker 1: somewhere because somebody had a crime of opportunity to get

1425
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 1: back at him. Most likely it was that it could

1426
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: have been a very well planned thing where they you know,

1427
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 1: they actually have had a really good reason to do it,

1428
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 1: or it could have been a crime of opportunity. I mean,

1429
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 1: I guess the like the problem is is like, why

1430
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:31,679
Speaker 1: did he have his laptop with him? That's totally solved

1431
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 1: if he was coming from work, right. That's why I'm

1432
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm happy to believe the colleagues who say he played

1433
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 1: hockey for half a day, he was coming from work,

1434
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:40,560
Speaker 1: he up and have it with him. You don't just

1435
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 1: leave that in your car, but you do when you

1436
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 1: forget about it. My wife has done this before. She

1437
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:51,599
Speaker 1: has come home and it has been Saturday at three

1438
01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 1: o'clock and all of a sudden she'll look at me

1439
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:58,360
Speaker 1: and go, oh, hell, my company laptop is in the car. Right.

1440
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that would explain and why he

1441
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: would have had it on him when he disappeared. But

1442
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 1: you're probably right. Actually, probably somebody came to his car

1443
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 1: and took a bunch of stuff and tossed it. Because

1444
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 1: that's why it smelled like smoke, right, Because what do

1445
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,560
Speaker 1: you do after you knocked somebody up? You have a

1446
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,640
Speaker 1: you have a drag? Ye. So, But I mean, but

1447
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,400
Speaker 1: that's why I'm inclined to believe that he was he

1448
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: knocked off for half a day instead of taking the

1449
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:23,640
Speaker 1: whole day off because it was it was unusual for

1450
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: him to have his computer with him. There would have

1451
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 1: been no reason for him to have it with him,

1452
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 1: even in the car. It wouldn't have been But you know,

1453
01:19:30,439 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean again I've heard I've heard

1454
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:35,640
Speaker 1: it both ways too. He took the whole day off,

1455
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: took half the day off, and I don't know if

1456
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: he took half the day makes sense that he would

1457
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:43,599
Speaker 1: have his laptop in his computer and that's resolved. But yeah,

1458
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 1: I think he got knocked off. I mean, there's just

1459
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,440
Speaker 1: no reason to believe he committed suicide or just disappeared

1460
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 1: in my In my heart of hearts, I hope that

1461
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 1: he's like in witness protection or like ran off to

1462
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:57,080
Speaker 1: have a new life, but seems unlikely. He probably isn't.

1463
01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:03,000
Speaker 1: Just eleven years. Yeah, thanks and Steve Martin And what

1464
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 1: was the other guy in the movie Martin short, I

1465
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,519
Speaker 1: never saw that movie, My Blue Heaven. I never saw

1466
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,800
Speaker 1: that one. Oh, it's hilarious. They sent him to a

1467
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: town that was full of ex cons who were all

1468
01:20:13,439 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 1: in witness protection, and they all knew each other and

1469
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: they were running rackets. It was the funniest movie ever

1470
01:20:20,040 --> 01:20:23,560
Speaker 1: and of course it was you know, mid nineties garbage,

1471
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 1: but Steve Martin, So yeah, I guess if you want

1472
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:31,200
Speaker 1: to see some of the research that we did, watch

1473
01:20:31,280 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 1: my Blue Heaven, don't watch Heaven, that's not research. You

1474
01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 1: can find that information on our website. The website is

1475
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,360
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. You can also stream and

1476
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 1: download the episodes the website were question. We replaced the player,

1477
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:48,400
Speaker 1: so you should be able to do that. You cannot comment,

1478
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 1: but that's okay. You can find merch links to the

1479
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: merch on the website. UM they're on the left hand side,

1480
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,599
Speaker 1: right hand side, sorry, along with the links to PayPal

1481
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: and Hatreon. UM. Those are both donation sites. If you

1482
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:05,080
Speaker 1: want to do a one time donation, we recommend PayPal.

1483
01:21:05,360 --> 01:21:08,240
Speaker 1: If you want to do recurring, we recommend Patreon. UM.

1484
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:11,599
Speaker 1: Just remember Patreon is reoccurring, so it's like four times

1485
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: a month you make that donation, which we love. Super

1486
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 1: helpful to a couple of episodes, but thank you so much. Yeah,

1487
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,479
Speaker 1: you are probably listening to us on iTunes. If you are,

1488
01:21:24,680 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: and you have not already UM subscribed, given us a

1489
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 1: review and a rating, do so. Please If you liked us,

1490
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 1: even if you didn't like us. You can still give

1491
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,880
Speaker 1: us a rating. Make it a good one though, Yeah

1492
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: five stars. You're just like a Spike giving a star. Yeah,

1493
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 1: it's actually opposite for you guys. Yeah yeah, Um, if

1494
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 1: you're streaming us on whatever, you were on all of them,

1495
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:51,400
Speaker 1: if you can comment and right there, do so there

1496
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,599
Speaker 1: as well. That's how you help other people find us.

1497
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:56,360
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, we have the group and the page,

1498
01:21:56,439 --> 01:21:59,599
Speaker 1: so you can like us and join the group. Lots

1499
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:05,160
Speaker 1: of good dicussion happening there. We're on Twitter, we're thinking sideways. UM.

1500
01:22:05,400 --> 01:22:08,200
Speaker 1: I just post a lot of random stuff, very rarely

1501
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:10,799
Speaker 1: about the show or anything like yeah anymore. The closest

1502
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: relation to the show is is here's something that sort

1503
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,240
Speaker 1: of once had Devin's face and it is now is

1504
01:22:16,360 --> 01:22:20,680
Speaker 1: just completely filtered. Yeah, it's really fun. Um, I don't know,

1505
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:22,799
Speaker 1: but I mean, like we have people who will tweet

1506
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 1: and ask questions or say things or suggest or whatever,

1507
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 1: and that's great. I you know, I love and that's

1508
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:30,960
Speaker 1: how I mostly interact with people. You guys are more

1509
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 1: on the Facebook and more on the Twitter. Um, but

1510
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 1: we also have a subreddit as well, which I interact

1511
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: with people on. UM. That is just it's just Thinking Sideways,

1512
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways Pod. That one is not us. What's going

1513
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,519
Speaker 1: on on the subreddit these days, by the way, I

1514
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 1: have not been out there in a while. Lots of discussion,

1515
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:51,400
Speaker 1: there's a there's an episode discussion for every episode, and

1516
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 1: um lots of links. People post the things that they

1517
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:57,320
Speaker 1: think we might find interesting. I need to ge out

1518
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,720
Speaker 1: there and look at that. Yeah, we also have an

1519
01:22:59,760 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: email address if you want to talk to us, if

1520
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 1: you want to suggest something, if you want to be

1521
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:05,720
Speaker 1: an expert, if you come across something, you can send

1522
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:07,800
Speaker 1: it to us as a story of suggestion. Yeah, or

1523
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:09,680
Speaker 1: if you just want to chat with us, that's cool too.

1524
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 1: That email address is, of course, Thinking Sideways Podcast at

1525
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And I guess all of that having

1526
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: been said, I don't have a joke for the end

1527
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: of this one. I'm just gonna say bye and talk

1528
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: to you guys next week. Oh bye.