WEBVTT - Isiah Thomas 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.239 Hello, Welcome to Club sha Shade. I am your host. 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:06.120 I'm also the proprietor Club Shade Shade. The guy that's 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:08.280 on my should that stopped by a few minutes. Today 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.360 there's a twelve time All Star, two time All Star MVP. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.479 He's the Finals MVP, a two time champion, a national champion, 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.280 most outstanding player in college, one of the fifty greatest 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:24.280 players in NBA history. Isaiah Thomas. All my life, running 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:29.080 all my life, sacrifice, hustle, back, pricing, Want a slice? 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.760 Got the bron dice to swath all my life. I've 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.920 been grinding all my life, all my life. The running, 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:39.600 all my life, sacrifice, hustle, baggy, pricing, Want a slice? 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.920 Got the bronic swath all my life. I've been grinding 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:48.760 all my life. Isaiah, how are you today? I am good, brother, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.320 and thanks for having me on your show. Thanks for 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.080 coming on. In all my years i've known you, Isaiah, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:56.800 I've never not seen you in a suit. Do you 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.160 wear jean? Do you wear shorts? Do you wear anything 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.480 other than suits? You know what? One time, one time 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.679 I remember I went to do uh, we did a 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.119 little thing at NBA TV that open court set. Okay, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.080 on us all to come casual, right, So I put 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.560 on jeans in the shirt and Steve Smith grabbed me, right, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.920 he goes, n No, no, you always wear a jacket. 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.679 So this is this is like this is like my 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:30.960 grade school Catholic boy. You know, okay, Asaiah, you grew 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:35.640 up on the West Side of Chicago, nine brothers and sisters. Obviously, 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.120 normally when families come from big family like that, the 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.520 parents are very disciplined, very strict. How were you upbringing 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.199 in Chicago, just as you just described it? My my 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.200 my family, you know, six brothers, two sisters. We were 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:54.080 a big family. Mom and dad were very Uh, I 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:56.960 guess you would say strict. But you know when we 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.040 when we talk about being strict and disciplinarians at that age, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.600 they only telling you to do the right things right. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.240 You know, when you're young and your teenagers, you always 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.520 want to veer off the beaten track, and they just 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.639 had a way of keeping you on the right track 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.960 and giving you positive messages. And even though we were 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.280 extremely poor, uh, you know, there was that poverty line 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.400 and then there was the line below poverty. We were 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.120 at right, you know, a couple of times we were homeless, 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.799 set out, you know, living from just place to place. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.320 But when I look back on on growing up and 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.160 how we lived, h somehow my mom and my dad 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:39.640 always found a way to make a smile with a 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.840 song or or do something just to take your mind 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.639 off the pain that you was really going through. So 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.920 I give them a lot of credit for just I 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.920 don't know how they navigated us, you know, through the 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.160 path that we were we were on at that time, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.839 but somehow they they did it and made sure that 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.560 you know, I got through. Asaiah, you mentioned you have 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.120 nine brothers. It's nine of you guys. You're the youngest 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.680 of the nine. So how would your parents were your parents? 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.360 Like I'm talking about the difference between I think the 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.440 thing if you grew up in the sixties and early seventies, 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.400 and I know what strict back then meant as opposed 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.880 to what strict is now. There are two different types 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:20.240 of strict. There are strict in the sixties and seventies 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.519 and they're strict in the twenty first century. So those 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.520 are different. So explain to our listeners if you were 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.200 what strict meant to you growing up back then, it 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.880 then really just there was a there was a respect 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:40.080 for your elders that you always had to give us. Yes, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:47.640 it was always mister and missus, yes sir, no, sir, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.600 It was never hey, beatty, how you doing? And and 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.680 just that that that that type of respect in terms 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:01.120 of dignity for yourself, dignity for your fellow man or 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.839 person that you were dealing with. That's what I mean 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:08.680 by by strict and in terms of being disciplined. You know, 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.600 the way child rearing was back then and the way 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.240 it is now a two totally different things. I mean, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.839 you're going to jail now for what they did back then. Yeah, 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.520 my my mom right now she would not be looked at, uh, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.960 you know, and and loving eyes right out and nowadays 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.520 as she was back then, right, you know, I would 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.359 I would say, you know, the way the way things 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.680 were and the way we had to come through to survive. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.919 Has she not been able to corral us all in 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.839 and keep us focused on education, keep us focused on 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.520 doing the right things. And even though she only had 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.360 a third grade education herself, she always made sure that 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:55.880 somehow we we had a meal. Uh, and you know, 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.200 sometimes we would have to beg and I remember one 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.560 time we were standing in uh, the food line, and 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.400 you know you when you're standing in the back, then 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:08.920 you just called it the soup line. Okay, we're standing 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:11.840 in the soup line, and we had just got out 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.080 of school. And so at four o'clock we're standing in 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.520 the soup line and kids still coming from school. And 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.680 I never forget, this little boy walked by and he 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.520 was teasing me, and I tried to get out of 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:28.400 line and get him. Man, my mother snatched me so hard, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.479 so hard to put me back in line, because you know, 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.599 if you lose your place in line, you gotta go 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.960 all the way back, went to the back. Yeah, so, 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.520 and I never forget she snatched me so hard. But 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:39.640 you know when she snatched me, you know how they 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:45.360 snatched you by your ear, they pull you back in Yes, yeah, yeah, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:50.120 so but you mentioned it was yes, sir, no sir, yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.840 That just wasn't for your your parents. That was for 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:57.479 anybody age that you had to show the ultimate respect towards. Yes, 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.040 I had to show the ultimate respect for him. And 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.120 then when the older person that's older than you, yes, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.960 coming down the street, you had to stop, let them 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.720 walk by, and and and and keep going and and 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.720 I grew up in some I grew up in the 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.800 roughest neighborhood on the West Side of Chicago that you 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.480 can imagine. But that type of respect for your elders 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.760 and people who were older than you, that was always there, 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.080 and to a certain extent, that's still there a little 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.799 bit today. I think you're growing up West side of Chicago. 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.880 What did you Obviously that's not I mean, how your 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.120 parents were you Like, I want something better than this. 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.440 Obviously you had to imagine that there was something better 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.039 than this that on the West side of Chicago. So 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.719 how did your upbringing help you? Like I can get 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:45.720 I need to get up out of here, and I 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.359 can get out here. You know, That's what sports kicked in. 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:55.359 So being being involved in sport allowed me to be 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:59.080 on a travel team. Okay, you can go outside of 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.200 your your your four block radius that we all were 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.680 confined to. Uh you would you would travel outside of that, 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:08.839 you know, with your team and you would get to 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.600 see other communities. Right. Not only would you get to 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:14.640 see other communities, you would meet other people and you 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.720 would see that there's a different way of life other 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:20.720 than what you saw on television. There was a different 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.760 way of life because you saw it on television, but 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.360 you didn't know that it was maybe five miles away 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.960 from you, right, And and that that allowed you to think, 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.040 think bigger, That allowed you to aspire to be more. 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.920 But a lot of that, really, you know, it comes 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.480 back to, you know, the messages that's being reverberated in 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.280 your household about Hey, you know this isn't the last 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.440 stop and the only way we were we would take. 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:51.160 The only way you're going to get out of here 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.000 is not with this basketball, but with these books. Right. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.880 Without these books, you can't play with this basketball, right, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.640 because they went hand in hand. And Shannon, you remember 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.400 when we were growing up, Hey, the bad guys couldn't 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.200 be on the team, right, you know what I mean? 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.640 And one no such thing as oh he can give 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.480 me twenty points and Tim rebounds a bad guy. But 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.480 we're put up with it. No, no, no, no, no no, 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.240 the bad guys. You know, in terms of your personality, 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.960 your personhood as a teammate, can you can you be 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.960 with this group? But if you were a bad person, right, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:29.920 you got kicked off the team and they didn't care 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.120 how many points and rebounds you can get. Nowadays, the 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.920 bad guy can be on the team, right, which is 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.439 which is different than the way we grow up. So 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:40.880 did you really, okay, you're good at basketball, you're on 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.640 the traveling team. Did you feel that this was going 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.959 to be your opportunity, this was going to be your 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.560 way out. This was a way that Isaiah was going 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.200 to take care of his family and his and the 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.800 family that he grew up with. No, So, when you know, 0:08:54.840 --> 0:09:00.680 the narrative around us as as professional basketball players is 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:05.160 that we grew up wanting to be NBA players. Know, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:10.080 the NFL was on television, but NBA one no television, 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.719 it was not no. So, so when I was growing up, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.200 it was never like, oh, the NBA dream, You're gonna 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.920 make all this money, because there were that wasn't there 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.000 for us, even though you knew it was an NBA. 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.120 It wasn't like, you know, the NFL. And so all 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.400 my goals were geared towards law school, trying to go 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:33.840 to law school, trying to be a lawyer, come back 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.760 to the community, you know, be a criminal defense lawyer helped, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.640 you know, help my community. That that's where everything was 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:46.000 geared towards Now then, you know, as basketball started to 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.000 get more popular and I was looked at as a 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:52.280 good basketball player, you know, then you got scholarships and 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.680 everything else. But that wasn't the childhood dream because it 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.520 wasn't on television. As a matter, I dream more about 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.840 playing football than because, as you mentioned, only the game 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.920 of only the game of the week was live, and 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.160 even the NBA Finals, Magic Johnson's NBA first year in 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.160 the championship that was tape delayed. People say, oh, basketball 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.839 has been this, this this behem of all the years. No, 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.680 it wasn't finals were tape delayed. They were played and 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.280 then you you already knew who won, but you watched 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.520 it anyway because you wanted to see the game exactly exactly. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.320 You know, that behemoth has always been an NFL, yes, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:33.160 and and that the NFL has, uh, you know, in 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:35.559 spite even though we played basketball, and that's why you 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.240 see a lot of basketball players now still, you know, 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:43.439 gravitate to football because football, to me, it is the 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.800 sport in terms of okay, everything is real, you know, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.240 and everything's about you know, being in your position, working 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:54.719 together as a team. And if you don't do your 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:58.160 job as a left ta tackle or right tackle, or 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:03.160 a guard or a sinner. Somebody getting hurt, right, somebody 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:06.080 getting right. So you know, if if we don't do 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:09.120 all jobs on the basketball court, okay, you there may 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.320 be a turnover somebody, you know, somebody gets scored on. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.280 But but in football, really, if that person doesn't do 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:21.000 his job, somebody is going to get hurt. So the 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:24.080 trust that you that you build on the football team 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.400 that you played with as teammates, and that that's it. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.840 That's different than than you know, what you have on 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.760 the basketball team. And that's why I always gravitated if 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.360 you look at all my teams that are played on 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.560 and that I was captain of, we always played with 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.880 a football mentality, right, you know the bad boys at 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:49.880 Detroit Pistons we were wearing football jerseys. Ers, yeah, all that. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.479 That's that's what we brought a football mentality the basketball. 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.800 And people think it was a physicality, but it wasn't 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.440 a physicality. It was a mentality in terms of trust, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.400 people coming together, taking care of each other and looking 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.280 out for each other. So you're growing up your underside soul. 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:08.760 Who are some of when you're growing up? Who are 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.320 some of the NBA stars that you like. Okay, I 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.400 kind of like him. I like his game, I can 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:16.760 because boy's not a whole at all. But you heard 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.480 about guys that anybody that you wanted to be like, 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.440 you idolized. They were all in my neighborhood and my 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:27.040 older brothers. And again, you gotta remember, it wasn't on television, right, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:33.480 so we we you know, up until I guess, I 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.320 guess nineteen eighty. I was nineteen eighty, nineteen seventy nine, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.680 that's when the NBA started getting on television. But I 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.320 was a senior, you know, senior freshman in high school 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.080 right within you're a freshman in college, right, So growing 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.920 up I always wanted to be like guys in the neighborhood. 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.199 You always dated somebody's move. My older brother always tried 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.920 to imitate him, still a lot of his moves. And 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.000 then there was a guy out of name a Sam Puckett, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.520 who actually was my brother's rival at another school. Okay, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.280 I tried to imitate some of his game too. So 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.480 coming obviously coming from Chicago, I mean normally, when you 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.880 hear about basketball players, you hear about Chicago, you hear 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.040 about New York, you hear about the big cities. So 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:23.559 you go to Indiana. What was the thought process of 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.200 going to Indiana. I'm sure you had heard some of 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.600 the stories about Coach Knight. And then it's reported that 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.960 your brother and Coach Night get into it when he 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.000 comes to recruit you. Well, all that's true. And by 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.760 the way, here I'm scratching. That's my dog behind me, 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.600 So I saw I saw it walk in. Yeah, and 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.600 that most people probably think I got a big dog. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.440 But that little fellow he tough. Now. But you know, 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.560 I didn't make the decision to go to Indiana. That 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.800 was made by my mom. And and again back then, 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.200 remember remember you your mom and your dad, they they 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.160 had to hammer, right, I never forget. You know, my mom, 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.839 you know, called the press conference and she said, my 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:09.320 son has made his decision. He decided to go to 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.480 Indiana University and play for coach tonight. And I was 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:18.800 like that and and yeah, here and my brother they 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:20.800 got into it, and they got into it. They got 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.600 into a you know, a pretty big fight. And you 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:29.640 know the reason why. What was it about? Well, coach 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.760 and I was recruiting me to come to Indiana in Bloomington, Indiana, right, 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:41.440 and and the next town over from Bloomington was Martinsville, Indiana. Okay, 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:46.000 plan started at her. Plan is is, you know, as 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:50.200 a big presence in the state of Indiana, right, And 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.960 and so my brother, you know, uh he asked Coach Tonight. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.040 He said, uh, well, you know when juniors down there, 0:14:58.080 --> 0:14:59.840 because that's what they called me in the family. They said, 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.480 when junior's down there, if if something was to go 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.360 down with the clan, who's gonna take care of him? 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.400 And you know, I thought it was I thought it 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.960 was kind of a funny ass. So Coach Knight said, well, 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:19.040 if we're winning, they will. We just kind of laughed 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.520 it off, right. A brother didn't think that was funny, right, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.400 So so he's like, oh, you know, you know, he 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.440 went into his thing and you know, and so they 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.640 got into, you know, a little back and forth, and 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.440 then my brother said, well, hey, we can take this outside. 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.360 And Coach Knight stood up, took his jacket off, rolled 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.320 up his sleeve. It's like, yeah, we could take this outside. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.080 And you know, everybody in the house we were panicking, 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.280 Oh no, no, you know our households all right, Oh no, no, no, no, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.800 Now now Shannon, you know, let me let me paint 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.280 the scene. So we at that time we got no lights. 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.360 We always poor, so all our meetings have to be 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.160 in the in the daytime, right right. So it's about 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:12.240 four o'clock and you know, again we got you know, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.280 it's actually it was a big roach crawling behind Coach 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.800 Knight's head, oh man, you know, and it was like 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.800 we were sitting there like cool away, cool away, you know, 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.280 they don't come out, do you have company? I feel 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:30.880 right right and sorry by my dog. But anyway, so 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.520 now it's getting to be a little dusk and I remember, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.840 you know, so the the scuffle you know, started happening, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.040 not a scuffle, but the back and forth. Coach and 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.720 I took off his jacket and we was all no, no, no, no, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.400 And you know it's that one person in the room 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.479 who ain't moving, ain't doing nothing right with my mom. 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:56.920 My mom was looking at him like shaking her head, 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:05.719 and I was like, oh, she liked him. And so 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.040 that's that's how I went down and my mom and 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.879 my mom and my sister. You know, he he came in, 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:16.320 he said, I'm off of your son. Three things. Hey, 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.879 he's gonna graduate from college. D he's going to be 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.639 a gentleman and see everything that I know about basketball, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.919 I'm a teacher. And that was it. I said at 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.080 the time that you went to college, were your father alive? 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:36.200 My father was alive. Now. The interesting thing about my father, 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.080 my mother and my father, and and again, you know, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.800 people who were coming up in the sixties, you would notice, 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.080 you know. So we had to go on welfare. So 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.160 when you go on welfare, I mean the US government 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.520 was really breaking up your family because the man couldn't 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.480 be inside the household, right And so my father had 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.240 to leave so we can get on welfare, get the 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.640 welfare check. And then they started having titchen and everything else. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:09.560 But my mom my dad, when he looked at Indiana, 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:13.440 he did not like me playing basketball. Okay, my father 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:19.920 didn't like nothing about entertainment. My father was everything about books, learning, 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.240 getting educated, because this is the way you're going to 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.760 make it in this world, right done. If you think 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.800 you're gonna make it in this world bouncing a basketball, 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.600 that's not how you're going to make it. You're not 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:36.240 gonna be you know. And and his beliefs was, you know, entertainment, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.520 you know, wasn't wasn't the wasn't the door or the 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.480 avenue for you to make it. It was the education 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.679 and those were his beliefs. I think the reason why 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.720 I asked you that because I don't know how many 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.720 people know this, but we know this because we come 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.359 from black families. The older brother took on the role 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.359 as the father if the father wasn't in the house. 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.040 And because you said your brother, your older brother, had 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.600 this conversation that led me know, okay, when somebody when 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:05.080 the father was absterlent, he's the man of the house. 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.399 He took all that responsibility. Yes he did. And and 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.199 they and even though and it's well documented, you know, 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.200 my my brothers after after the Vietnam War, everybody fell 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.879 into you know, heroin and cocaine, and my brothers, you know, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.200 a couple of them died, you know, one of them 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.639 had HIV and you know, so it was it was 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.239 a very difficult time during that period of time. But 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.840 the messages that they were always giving me or their 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.600 hard times was hey, don't don't do what we're doing right, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.280 can do something else. And Shannon, I never forget you know, uh, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.040 now you got me going down memory lane because when 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:48.960 we started, when we were talking about my brothers. You know, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.840 everybody got to hand me down, right. Oh? Yes, so 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.560 me being the youngest, right, oh you got you got 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.439 three four deep, hand me down three four deep. But 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.959 I couldn't think my brother's So you know who's clothes? 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.240 I could fit sister's clothes. I got my sister's clothes. 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.399 So you're butting up on the left side too, wearing 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.199 I wearing a jeans and you know we knew Mando 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.359 was a girl jeans. So I'm having the fire on 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.120 people in elementary and junior high because they talk about 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.160 I'm wearing girl jeans. So I got the fire on them. 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.320 I said, I got no choice. That's how I got 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:29.639 good with my hands. That's how I was like, Okay, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.800 well go on graduation day. I had on my sister's 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:39.600 black pattern leather boots, and I had on her flowered 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.520 red blows with a hood on the back. And I 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:48.439 had on her privateence Saint Mao blazer. That was my 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:52.119 graduation outfit in eighth grade. So you go to you 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.959 go to Indiana. What was it like playing for Coach Night? 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.960 I mean, we hear all these stories, but I've never 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.520 taught to anyone that I played for Coach Night. You 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.600 hear these stories about guys that played for him, but 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.320 I've never actually talked to someone that actually played for 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:11.199 Coach Night. So what's that like. So the stories that 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:16.200 you that we all heard about him being a strong disciplinarian, 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.720 I was waiting for that. But what I found was 0:21:22.800 --> 0:21:26.640 that in our style of play, the way we played, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:33.080 there was great freedom. But with that great freedom came 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:37.600 a great responsibility. So, Shannon, we never had an under 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:41.480 out of bounds play. We never had a play. There 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:44.680 was no We never came down and said, hey, twenty 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.720 two out. You know, we never It was it was 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:54.080 all about reading and reacting, knowing your teammate, understanding your teammate, 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:59.600 and making the right decisions every single time. So we 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.400 the way we played it was it was very free flowing, 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.760 and it was hard to scout because he believed just 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.880 like I believe that pattern offense. And you notice from football, 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:17.800 when I can scout your pattern and and I understand 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.760 your tendencies, then as a defensive player, I got a 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.800 good chance of stopping you right. But but if if 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.720 if I don't if and in basketball, what he gave 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:35.199 us his ability to always go left or right, and 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.760 you had to make the right decision. Now he would 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.320 come back and then we would watch it on film. 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.600 And if you went left and it was the wrong decision, 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:50.800 it was it was always hell to pay taking the 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:56.200 wrong decision. Well, if he getting in the game, what 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.199 was practice like? Because practice got because for someone to 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:02.960 have back Cann trusting you in the game, you the 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.560 practices have to be held Azaia. The practice were intense, 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:11.840 so the intensity and the concentration uh in the energy 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:15.440 that you had to bring the practice every single day. 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:20.240 You know, you you got taught to always be at 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:26.000 your maximum, right, got taught to always think at your maximum, 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.320 and you got taught to always concentrate at your maximum. 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.000 There was there was never let down, and when there 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.160 was a let down, again that was held to pay 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.679 for a let down. So being able to sustain that 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:46.399 level of intensity, that level of concentration, that level of energy, 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:50.000 whenever you played against your opponent, it was just a 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:54.520 matter of time before he wore down. And and being 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:58.359 a smaller player, I have to depend on the bigger 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:03.040 player to make a mistake, right, because if you're bigger, faster, stronger, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:08.320 then in sports athletically you're gonna beat your opponent nine 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.520