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Speaker 1: Quick heads Up. Today's episode talks about disordered eating.

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Speaker 2: They want women to be small, they want women to

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Speaker 2: take up less space.

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Speaker 1: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative, I'm Bridge Tad and this

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Speaker 1: is there are no girls on the Internet. Open TikTok

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Speaker 1: and it won't take long before you find it. A

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Speaker 1: perfect body, a suspiciously low calorie what I eat in

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Speaker 1: the day, A silent morning routine drenched in beaged and disciplined.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to skinny Talk. A world where thinness isn't just

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Speaker 1: the goal, it's the ideology. But this isn't just about

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Speaker 1: diets or aesthetics. It's about control, and it's about what

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Speaker 1: our culture expects women to be. Small, quiet, beautiful and

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Speaker 1: preoccupied with staying that way. And platforms like TikTok aren't

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Speaker 1: just reflecting the values, they're amplifying them. Journalist cat ten

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Speaker 1: Barge of Spitfire News has been reporting on how social

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Speaker 1: media glorifies extreme thinness and how it harms women and girls.

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Speaker 1: But what sets to work apart is that she doesn't

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Speaker 1: just cover the tech itself. She looks at how people

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Speaker 1: actually use it and what that reveals about the world

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Speaker 1: we're building online.

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Speaker 2: Particularly when you report on technology, A lot of times

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Speaker 2: it's coming from a male centered perspective and through a

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Speaker 2: sort of male lens, where the things that people are

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Speaker 2: actually doing with the technology are secondary to the companies

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Speaker 2: that are involved the products they're releasing like the technology itself,

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Speaker 2: and both sides are ultimately crucial to understanding the whole,

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Speaker 2: but too frequently we leave out sort of the negative

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Speaker 2: societal consequences of technology and internet culture.

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Speaker 1: Cat's reporting sits at the intersection of gender, social media,

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Speaker 1: and technology. She spent years digging into what women and

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Speaker 1: girls are doing online, beat that's often dismissed as not

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Speaker 1: serious news, but that underestimation has actually put her ahead

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Speaker 1: of the curve, catching major cultural shifts before they hit

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Speaker 1: the mainstream. What drew you to reporting on this kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff?

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Speaker 3: For me?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in like fully the social media age,

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Speaker 2: So by the time that I was in high school,

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Speaker 2: I was on YouTube, Tumbler, snapchat like all the time,

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Speaker 2: and I had aspirations of becoming a journalist, But I

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Speaker 2: didn't initially think that I would be reporting on these.

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Speaker 4: Types of topics.

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Speaker 2: I saw myself as more of a quote unquote like

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Speaker 2: serious news reporter. So like when I was in college

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Speaker 2: studying journalism, I was really looking at covering politics and

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Speaker 2: like politics through a very traditional lens. But over the

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Speaker 2: course of my college career, I over time realized that

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Speaker 2: I had all this knowledge about like influencers and social

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Speaker 2: media spaces, and that that was becoming more and more

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Speaker 2: important to our wider cultural converse and the.

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Speaker 4: Way that we all live.

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Speaker 2: So when I graduated, I specifically pursued reporting on like

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Speaker 2: the YouTube space and the influencer space, And over the years,

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Speaker 2: what's been really interesting is that space has become more

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Speaker 2: and more relevant to the sort of mainstream politics that

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Speaker 2: I had originally thought I would be reporting on. You

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Speaker 2: kind of caught it early, Yeah, I feel like I

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Speaker 2: was like kind of on this wave and a lot

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Speaker 2: of particularly women journalists who I looked up to at

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Speaker 2: the time that I was in college, women like Taylor Lorenz,

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Speaker 2: has been a big mentor to me, and she was

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Speaker 2: someone who was at these major legacy institutions like saying

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Speaker 2: this stuff is really important, and it was really ahead

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Speaker 2: of the curve as to what we all now know,

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Speaker 2: which is that this makes up so much of what

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Speaker 2: our daily lives are like, She's right.

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Speaker 1: What's happening in online spaces like skinny talk says a

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Speaker 1: lot about our culture and our politics. Skinny talk isn't

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Speaker 1: an official category. It's a term used to describe content

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Speaker 1: that centers on extreme thinness, weight loss, and often glorifies

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Speaker 1: disordered eating. It's the kind of stuff that can quietly

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Speaker 1: take over your feed depending on what the algorithm thinks

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Speaker 1: you want to see. TikTok recently announce they were banning

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Speaker 1: skinny talk. Now if you search the hashtag, you'll be

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Speaker 1: redirected to eating disordered resources instead of videos that this

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Speaker 1: content is not just about weight. It reflects a deeper

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Speaker 1: social message that women shouldn't just be thin, we should

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Speaker 1: be thin, hot, quiet, and constantly working to stay that way.

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Speaker 1: And while these ideas aren't really new, algorithms are turbo

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Speaker 1: charging them for a digital age. Kat you covered skinny

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Speaker 1: talk for Wired. This kind of content is definitely connected

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Speaker 1: to the current political and social climate, but it is

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Speaker 1: also not new because I remember it being all over Tumblr.

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Speaker 1: So what's changed about the way this kind of content

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Speaker 1: shows up on social media platforms like TikTok today?

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Speaker 2: What I saw happening last year across a number of

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Speaker 2: different means stream social media platforms. One of them was

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Speaker 2: x formerly Twitter, another one was TikTok, and I'm been

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot on Instagram too. Is this corner of

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Speaker 2: the Internet that was previously really niche, This like pro

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Speaker 2: eating disorder part of the Internet, which, like you said,

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Speaker 2: it's been around for decades, even before social media. It

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Speaker 2: was on forums, Like from the time that the Internet existed,

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Speaker 2: there were communities of people who were sort of like

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Speaker 2: when you go into these communities, what it is is

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Speaker 2: it's like a space for people who are experiencing eating

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Speaker 2: disorders to connect. But unfortunately, the culture that flourishes within

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Speaker 2: them encourages and sort of promotes eating disorders. And so

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Speaker 2: what I saw happening last year is this culture had

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Speaker 2: escaped containment from these niche community spaces and was being

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Speaker 2: algorithmically pushed to almost everyone on these social media platforms.

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Speaker 2: I had people, multiple people reaching out to me being like,

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Speaker 2: this pro eating disorder stuff is on my for you page,

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Speaker 2: This pro eating disort of stuff is right when I

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Speaker 2: open up Twitter, it's the first tweet that I see

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Speaker 2: that's being pushed to me. And what I eventually figured

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Speaker 2: out is that these social media platforms, in the process

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Speaker 2: of developing new features like community tabs and tweaking their algorithms,

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Speaker 2: as well as some of these broader cultural changes that

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Speaker 2: were happening, it was a perfect storm where all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden pro eating disorder, content went from something you

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Speaker 2: had to seek out to something you could no longer avoid.

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Speaker 2: And so skinny talk is another iteration of this where

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Speaker 2: if you are a TikTok user, even now, even they've

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Speaker 2: they've recently banned the skinny talk hashtag in response to

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Speaker 2: a lot of this great reporting that's come out. But

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Speaker 2: even now when I open up TikTok, I cannot avoid

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Speaker 2: it is like my feed is cluttered with all of

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Speaker 2: these posts that are glorifying extreme thinness, influencing young women

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Speaker 2: in particular and girls to have an extreme calorie deficit.

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Speaker 2: There's content for boys and men that in coourages them

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Speaker 2: to lose a lot of weight, really dramatically and drastically,

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Speaker 2: And it's like this toxic soup that I find to

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Speaker 2: be like so harmful to people's mental health, especially a

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Speaker 2: disturbing kind of side effect of where we're at with

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Speaker 2: social media.

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Speaker 1: I have experienced the exact same thing as I said.

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Speaker 1: I've been on the Internet for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: and only very very recently, like in the last few years.

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Speaker 1: I knew that kind of content was out there, but

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Speaker 1: this is the first time that it's really been surfaced

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Speaker 1: for me. Right, I went my entire life never thinking

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Speaker 1: about whether or not a human is meant to have

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Speaker 1: a flat stomach. It just never came up. And now

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Speaker 1: it is everywhere. And I am not somebody who has,

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Speaker 1: you know, struggled with disorder, eating and like real body

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Speaker 1: image issues in my life. But only in the last

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Speaker 1: few years have I found myself thinking about this because

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Speaker 1: it is all I am seeing on social media, and

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine what that would be like if

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Speaker 1: I wasn't an older person, Right, if I'm fourteen, fifty,

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Speaker 1: te teen, sixteen. If the way that it's impacting me

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Speaker 1: as like a fully formed adult, how is it impacting

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Speaker 1: youth who are being surfaced as kind of content on

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Speaker 1: the rent?

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Speaker 2: Now? Yes, I've talked to like at least half a

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Speaker 2: dozen experts in the eating disorder space, people who work

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Speaker 2: with treatment, people who studied this through an academic lens,

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Speaker 2: and what I've heard is that over the course of

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Speaker 2: the last few decades, eating disorders have emerged as a

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Speaker 2: phenomenon and they have skyrocketed alongside the proliferation of mass media.

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Speaker 2: So what that means is that when TV and magazines

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Speaker 2: became much more commonplace in like the twentieth.

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Speaker 4: Century, you started to see women.

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Speaker 2: And girls in particular, they were encountering like cover images

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Speaker 2: on magazines, they were they were encountering women in commercials

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Speaker 2: and on TV and in movies who fit this beauty

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Speaker 2: standard that oftentimes was extreme thinness. And this beauty standard

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Speaker 2: it comes from a lot of different places, but it's

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Speaker 2: also beaut standard that prioritizes whiteness. It's a beauty standard

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Speaker 2: that prioritizes these sort of conventional Eurocentric features, and it's

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Speaker 2: a beauty standard that really overemphasizes being thin. And you

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Speaker 2: see diet culture reflect this. You see the way that

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Speaker 2: a diet and exercise are incentivized, in the way that

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Speaker 2: thinness is incentivized, and sort of all walks of life

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Speaker 2: all contribute to sort of the social factors that drive

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Speaker 2: eating disorders.

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Speaker 1: So here's something I keep noticing in content that flirts

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Speaker 1: with disordered eating. The people making it rarely think they're

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Speaker 1: promoting anything harmful. They say they're just being real and

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Speaker 1: that life really is easier when you're thinner. And the

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Speaker 1: worst part is they are not entirely wrong, but calling

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Speaker 1: that honesty doesn't do anything to challenge the system. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it only props it up. It tells us this is

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Speaker 1: just how the world works, so don't blot it fighting it,

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Speaker 1: And that's the real damage.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I have heard from a lot of

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Speaker 2: experts and other reporters in this field is like, it's

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Speaker 2: not just a problem of it all being in your

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Speaker 2: head or even what you're seeing on TikTok. It's like

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Speaker 2: in quote unquote real life. In these offline settings, women

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Speaker 2: will report that they are treated better if they are thinner.

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Speaker 4: People.

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Speaker 2: Strangers will treat them better. When you go to a restaurant,

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Speaker 2: the waite staff will treat you nicer. Potential future romantic

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Speaker 2: partners might seek you out more or treat you nicer,

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Speaker 2: and you'll be given more opportunities professionally. A lot of

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Speaker 2: times as a woman, the closer you adhere to the

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Speaker 2: beauty standard. So this online culture, it's not creating eating disorders.

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Speaker 2: It's responding to this culture that already existed. But what

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Speaker 2: it's also doing is it's exponentially growing this culture. It's

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Speaker 2: like it's becoming something that's so inescapable and so unavoidable.

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Speaker 2: And another interesting thing I've picked up on within my

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Speaker 2: conversations with other reports or so I've been writing about

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Speaker 2: this is that when we look at this content for

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Speaker 2: extended periods of time, when I watch dozens of skinny

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Speaker 2: talk videos, when I spend hundreds of hours in these

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Speaker 2: pro eating disorder communities on platforms like x, I can

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Speaker 2: feel the effect, like it's a very tangible like I

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Speaker 2: can feel this and how bad it is for my

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Speaker 2: mental health in a way that I've reported on, you know,

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Speaker 2: violent misogyny, I've reported on political extremism, disinformation, I've gone

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Speaker 2: into some of the darkest corners of the Internet. But

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Speaker 2: this stuff, it like it is affecting in a way

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Speaker 2: that I previously haven't experienced.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say I can relate. I recently started making

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Speaker 1: a few changes to support my own health, including getting

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Speaker 1: into weightlifting, and just from showing a very casual interest

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Speaker 1: in weightlifting online, my social feeds instantly got extreme. Suddenly

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Speaker 1: I was being shown content of women with INCREDI lean

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Speaker 1: bodies and all of these intense routines that they do

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Speaker 1: to maintain those bodies. And honestly, I think it got

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Speaker 1: in my head more than any kind of content ever

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Speaker 1: has before. Something that you point to in your piece

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Speaker 1: that I have also seen with this content is how

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Speaker 1: a lot of the creators who are pushing it, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think that they would say, oh, this is

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Speaker 1: pro eating disorder content or whatever. Sometimes they'll even say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just being honest. You know the culture that you

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Speaker 1: just described where people who are thinner report like or

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Speaker 1: if if you lose a lot of weight, you report,

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Speaker 1: you know, being treated nicer by at work, being treated

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Speaker 1: nicer by the staff at a restaurant, all of that.

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Speaker 1: What some of these creators are saying is I'm just

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Speaker 1: not sugarcoating it. I'm being honest with you. I'm giving

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Speaker 1: you the truth. What do you say to that.

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Speaker 4: You know, that's a great point.

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Speaker 2: And this content does really fall on a spectrum because

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Speaker 2: you have like the most extreme content that really is

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Speaker 2: like explicitly glorifying and advocating for disordered eating, and then

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Speaker 2: you have this content like you just described that isn't

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Speaker 2: saying like you should be you should be having an

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Speaker 2: Eightian sort or it isn't saying you should be inter

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Speaker 2: exit or you should be binging and purging. So when

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Speaker 2: you have these women and it is overwhelmingly women, like

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Speaker 2: you see it with some male influencers too, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's really interesting and also concerning, but overwhelmingly like

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Speaker 2: the skinny Talk influencer, the archetype is this is a

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Speaker 2: woman who is blonde, white, extremely thin, conventionally attractive. She

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Speaker 2: lives in a beautiful apartment in New York City or

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Speaker 2: another big city, and she's sitting there and she's telling you, like,

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Speaker 2: this is your path to winning and succeeding at life,

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Speaker 2: and it starts with you having a lot of times

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Speaker 2: it's framed as self control or being healthy, and as

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Speaker 2: long as you reach this sort of sin ideal, then

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Speaker 2: other opportunities will open up for you and you'll be

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Speaker 2: happier and you'll be healthier and you'll be freer. And

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Speaker 2: they may be starting at a point where like there's

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Speaker 2: a kernel of truth to this, which is that then

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Speaker 2: people are treated better in society, But rather than confront

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Speaker 2: that or seek to push back against that status quo,

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Speaker 2: what they're doing is they're really reinforcing and perpetuating that

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Speaker 2: status quo and saying that it's the right thing to do.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of times, the way that you see

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Speaker 2: this in the rhetoric that they share is they'll talk

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Speaker 2: about how, over the past decade or so, there has

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Speaker 2: been a social movement to push back against the beauty

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Speaker 2: standard and thinness and disordered eating, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: times that's called the body positivity movement or the body

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Speaker 2: neutrality movement, or health at every size is another one

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Speaker 2: of these movements. And these skinny talk influencers will actually

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Speaker 2: attack and undermine these movements directly, and they'll say, like,

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Speaker 2: it is unhealthy to be it is unhealthy to be obese.

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Speaker 2: These movements are promoting obesity, they're promoting negative health outcomes,

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Speaker 2: and that's not true. Like this carries into a misinformation

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Speaker 2: disinformation territory in which a lot of these creators are

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Speaker 2: actively spreading very dangerous information around health. Because it is

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Speaker 2: true that you can be healthy at any size. It

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Speaker 2: is true that you don't need to adhere to the

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Speaker 2: ultra thin ideal to be healthy or happy, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: if you go too far along that pathway of losing weight,

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Speaker 2: you are unhealthy. It's sort of like this conversation and

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Speaker 2: this reframing of thinness and health completely loses out on

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Speaker 2: the fact that eating disorders are incredibly dangerous and efforts

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Speaker 2: to lose weight and maintain that extreme thinness that these

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Speaker 2: influencers are selling. For most people, that's actually going to

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Speaker 2: be much more unhealthy and lead to worse outcomes than

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Speaker 2: if they maintained like their average weight or the weight

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Speaker 2: that they feel most comfortable at.

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Speaker 1: Is it the mortality rate for eating disorders, It's the

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Speaker 1: second highest of any mental issue you can experience.

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Speaker 2: Yes, after drug abuse and drug addiction like heroin.

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Speaker 3: Wow, let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: An adults can survive on just five hundred calories a day.

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Speaker 1: Restrictive diets are healthy, there's clean food and dirty food.

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Speaker 1: Having fat on your body is always unhealthy. These are

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Speaker 1: all lies that I see online all the time. They're

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Speaker 1: medical misinformation, plain and simple. But because we live in

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Speaker 1: a deeply fat phobic society, this kind of misinformation is

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Speaker 1: often tolerated, even normalized. It rarely gets treated with the

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Speaker 1: same urgency or scrutiny as other kinds of false health claims,

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Speaker 1: and that is a very serious problem. A lot of

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Speaker 1: my work is grounded in the mis and disinformation space,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes to health information specifically, so often

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Speaker 1: it's like the conversation gets boiled down to like vaccine

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Speaker 1: disinformation and things things that seem things that they are,

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Speaker 1: things that are kind of you can talk about them

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Speaker 1: from a certain specific kind of black white lens. I

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Speaker 1: feel less often are we talking about the way that

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Speaker 1: content that glorifies extreme thinness and disorder eating is just

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Speaker 1: like genuinely health miss and disinformation, right, Yes, the idea

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Speaker 1: that a grown adult could could have their caloric intake

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Speaker 1: be like eight hundred or nine hundred calories what a

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Speaker 1: child would eat, that's not true. There's just like less

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Speaker 1: unless you are in some rare situation where you are

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Speaker 1: working with a doctor for them. For the majority of people,

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Speaker 1: that's simply false. And if you are getting online and

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Speaker 1: spreading a false message about people's health on the internet,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand why we don't see that as a

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Speaker 1: clear cut miss and disinformation issues the way that you

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Speaker 1: do with other kinds of health miss and disinformation. Does

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Speaker 1: that make sense? Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: And one thing that's Froen really helpful for me over

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Speaker 2: my reporting has been talking to nutritionists about what the

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Speaker 2: truth really is. And I think you have kind of

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Speaker 2: like a collapsing different degrees of failure ups lay here

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Speaker 2: because there is sort of a lack of communication about

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Speaker 2: what healthy eating and what a healthy body type is.

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Speaker 2: Generally speaking. I think most people in the public who

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Speaker 2: are on platforms like TikTok, or aren't even on platforms

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Speaker 2: like TikTok, have sort of a misguided understanding of what

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Speaker 2: health and diet and exercise and beauty mean because for

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Speaker 2: so many of us, for the vast majority of us,

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Speaker 2: our knowledge of these topics is based on what we

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Speaker 2: hear from other people in our lives and what we

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Speaker 2: hear through mass media, and those formats spread misinformation and disinformation.

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Speaker 2: I look at how a lot of these, like dieting

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Speaker 2: and exercising tips, they are passed down from women to

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Speaker 2: women through generations. You hear it from your mother, you

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Speaker 2: hear it from your grandmother. You have the exacting s

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Speaker 2: slogans going viral on skinny Talk today that were diet

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Speaker 2: slogans being advertised to women in the eighties decades ago.

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Speaker 2: It's just constantly recycling this same old messaging over and

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Speaker 2: over again, and ideally, social media platforms could be used

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Speaker 2: to take real information coming from people like nutritionists and

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Speaker 2: scientists and eating disorder of providers, and you could take

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Speaker 2: that and enshare that with the world. And I do

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Speaker 2: think we're starting to see a little bit of that

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Speaker 2: turn when it comes to content that glorifies disordered eating.

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Speaker 2: Platforms like TikTok can be a double edged sword. On

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Speaker 2: the one hand, they can surface harmful content to users

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Speaker 2: who might not have sought it out, but they can

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Speaker 2: also be a source of support, a place where people

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Speaker 2: struggling can find connection, resources, and real hope. Creators like

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Speaker 2: registered dietitian Michelle Pilipitch use TikTok to share accessible, judgment

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Speaker 2: free content about building a sustainable, healthy lifestyle, no diets

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Speaker 2: or restriction required.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to my series From Bad to Balance, where

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Speaker 1: I take the foods you think are bad and make

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Speaker 1: them into a balanced meal. In your piece, you spoke

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Speaker 1: to creators like Michelle Pilipitch, who's a registered dietitian who

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Speaker 1: makes kind of anti skinny talk content almost sort of

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Speaker 1: to retrain folks as brains against that kind of thinking.

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Speaker 1: Do you see social media platforms almost as this double

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Speaker 1: edged sword where there are folks showing up to use

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Speaker 1: the platform to glorify disordered eating and extreme fitness, and

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Speaker 1: also folks there who are using those same platforms to

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Speaker 1: sort of retrain folks to say like, hey, actually this

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Speaker 1: isn't healthy, Actually this is misinformation. Here's a better way

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Speaker 1: to be thinking about.

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Speaker 2: It, exactly. And I think that a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: And you see this with eating disorders in particular. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of legislation and a lot of activism happening

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Speaker 2: right now that's against social media, and oftentimes issues like

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Speaker 2: eating disorders will be framed within this anti social media

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Speaker 2: activism as like, we shouldn't let kids use social media

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Speaker 2: because eating disorders are rising at a scary rate among teenagers,

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Speaker 2: and we think it's because of social media. So the

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Speaker 2: answer here is to just never let them use TikTok.

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Speaker 2: But I really disagree with this because the way that

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Speaker 2: I see it is that social media is a double

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Speaker 2: edged sword. In the same way that it's been weaponized

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Speaker 2: against progress, it could.

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Speaker 4: In fact be used for progress.

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Speaker 2: And you see that with creators like Michelle who, like

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Speaker 2: you said, she's a nutritionist who I interviewed, and she

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Speaker 2: is so great and She's such a good example of

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Speaker 2: this because she what she did is she listened to

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Speaker 2: her patients who were telling her about this messaging that

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Speaker 2: they were hearing on platforms like TikTok, and she went

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Speaker 2: on TikTok and she started creating viral messaging in the

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Speaker 2: opposite direction that was actually informing people about what healthy

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Speaker 2: eating looks like, what health looks like, encouraging people to

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Speaker 2: share things that helped them recover from eating disorders instead

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Speaker 2: of what encouraged them to go down this path. And

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Speaker 2: her success, as well as other creators doing the same thing,

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Speaker 2: looking at their success, the way that I see it

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Speaker 2: is that we should actually be encouraging more speech around

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Speaker 2: these topics on social media rather than looking at how

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Speaker 2: we can limit this sort of speech. I think that

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Speaker 2: putting more of it out there, giving people the information

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Speaker 2: where they already are, reaching people where they are, I

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Speaker 2: think is the way forward here. And the flip side

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Speaker 2: of sort of these attempts to censor social media or

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Speaker 2: moderate social media is that time and time again, platforms

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Speaker 2: like Tumbler, Reddit, Instagram, TikTok, all of them, they've all

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Speaker 2: made attempts to just ban pro eating disorder content they've

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Speaker 2: banned specific influencers, they've banned entire communities, they've targeted types

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Speaker 2: of rhetoric. And what we've always seen happen is that

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Speaker 2: it just migrates to another platform or just shape shifts

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Speaker 2: so that it can create a new form. So these

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Speaker 2: efforts to stop this content in its tracks have not

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Speaker 2: been successful. What we are seeing some success with I've

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Speaker 2: spoken to some people who are young, who are on

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Speaker 2: the pathway to recovery from eating disorders who found this

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Speaker 2: content on social media that actually helped them.

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Speaker 1: Trying to get social media platforms to curb this kind

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Speaker 1: of content used to be my job. We compile examples

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Speaker 1: to paint a bigger portrait, essentially saying you all are

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Speaker 1: not doing a good enough job keeping content that glorifies

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Speaker 1: disordered eating off of your platform. But what the leadership

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Speaker 1: at these platforms often seem to hear was just take

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Speaker 1: down these specific bad posts. They rarely engage with a

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Speaker 1: deeper issue of why this kind of content keep showing

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Speaker 1: up in the first place, or how to stop that

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Speaker 1: long term. It was incredibly frustrating, So I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. In a former life,

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Speaker 1: I worked in the sort of platform, advocacy space, and

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Speaker 1: so skinny talk. I personally met with leaders from TikTok

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Speaker 1: to bring corners of skinny talk to their attention. And

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Speaker 1: what it's interesting is I agree with you. I think

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Speaker 1: that the leaders at these platforms at least did tell

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Speaker 1: me like, oh, we're interested in stamping out this kind

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Speaker 1: of content. It goes against our terms of service. They

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Speaker 1: would ban the hashtag skinny talk. Sometimes within hours it

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Speaker 1: would be like skinny talk but spelled out with ones

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Speaker 1: or something, or like like the way that creators would

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Speaker 1: find a way around whatever kind of ban or whatever

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Speaker 1: kind of moderation these platforms would roll out. It made

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Speaker 1: me think, I don't know if this is actually something

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Speaker 1: that they can that they can eradicate from their platforms.

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Speaker 1: And you're saying that, like, well, maybe they shouldn't even

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Speaker 1: be focusing on that. Instead, they should be focusing on

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Speaker 1: bringing people who are able to make content around the

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Speaker 1: other side of like what you know, what actually is

437
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: healthy eating and like thinking about things a little bit

438
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: differently that actually might be more effective.

439
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: I think so, and I think that you can have

440
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: a little bit of both. When I've done this reporting

441
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: on these really extreme pro eating disorder communities on platforms

442
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 2: like Acts. I do think that there absolutely is a

443
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: line where you do need to be moderating these communities.

444
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 2: And I think it's a good thing that in response

445
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 2: to some of my previous reporting, like x came in

446
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: and shut down some of these communities and they popped

447
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: back up again and they started growing again.

448
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: But I do think that shutting down that.

449
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: Community that really toxic space, it was helpful because it

450
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: did at least stop the growth of some of these

451
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: massive communities in their tracks. So I don't think it

452
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: is a complete like a net negative or positive in

453
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 2: one direction or the other. I do think some moderation

454
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: that still needs to happen. But I think looking at

455
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: sort of the longer term issue, it's clear that we

456
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: cannot solve this problem just by like trying to ignore

457
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: it or stamp it out or censor it. We have

458
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: got to address it head on, and we have to

459
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 2: make that connection between what is happening in these online

460
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 2: spaces and what happens offline, because offline, the messaging is

461
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: all too familiar. When you are walking down the street

462
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: in New York City and you see the billboards and

463
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 2: you see the people around you, you begin to understand

464
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 2: that thinness and the types of things that are preached

465
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: about on skinny Talk are not just an online issue.

466
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: This is a reflection and a mirror distortion of the

467
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: world that we live in and have honestly lived in

468
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: for quite some time.

469
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: We can't really talk about skinny Talk without talking about

470
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 1: Live Schmidt. Before she was banned, Live built a massive

471
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: following with TikTok videos that kind of looked like wellness,

472
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: you know, pastel smoothies, four im workouts, tiny meals in

473
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 1: perfect lighting. But beneath that esthetic was something darker, a

474
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: steady stream of content that promoted disordered eating and a

475
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: toxic obsession with thinness. She became the poster child for

476
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: a certain kind of that girl content, the kind the

477
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: algorithm devours, and she took it even further by creating

478
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: a paid subscriber only platform called Skinny Society, where women

479
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: and girls as young as high schoolers traded restrictive eating

480
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: tips and competed over restrictive eating practices. When the backlash came,

481
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: it wasn't the platform that stepped in first. It was

482
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 1: the users, calling out how content like lives pushed harmful

483
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: ideals to millions, especially young women and girls. After a

484
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: critical piece in The Cut, Live's TikTok page was banned,

485
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: so she moved to Instagram, where her content has been demonetized.

486
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: Her account may be gone from TikTok, but her influence,

487
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: well that's still everywhere. I know that's come tarsh, but

488
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: it's just you're in charge of your lifestyle and it shows.

489
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, being skinny is like the literal new Burkin.

490
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: So do you want to be a Burkin or do

491
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 3: you want to be a thrift store back?

492
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: What do you make of the fact that people are

493
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: able to monetize this, make a business out of this?

494
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: Yes, this to me is a really concerning sort of

495
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 2: evolution of like the pro eating disorder space, is the

496
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: ability for influencers to build these monetizable followings, because that's

497
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: something that you didn't necessarily see on Tumblr in like

498
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: the late aughts or the early twenty tens. Over the

499
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: past ten years, as social media has become so much

500
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: more all encompassing, as more people have spend more time

501
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 2: on social media, as it's wormed its way into every

502
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,479
Speaker 2: facet of our lives, you've also seen the ability to

503
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: make money from social media grow exponentially, and so it's

504
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: not a surprising trend that you're seeing this in the

505
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: eating disorder space. But I find these communities to be

506
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: like particularly concerning because when you're paying for something and

507
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: when you're being put in these now like more private

508
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: spaces with like minded people, that is such a strong

509
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: conduit for more and more and more extreme thought. And

510
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: as a result of that reporting in the cut, Instagram

511
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: demonetized Liveschmidt's like sort of pain. But every time I

512
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: go on Instagram, every time I go on Instagram reels,

513
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: which is like a button on your page that you're

514
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: gonna hit accidentally, even if you don't mean to go

515
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: to it, I am bombarded with Live Schmidt's content.

516
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: To this day, every daubt.

517
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: And it's just like I it's inavoidable, it's inescapable, and

518
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: there's something very compelling about the what she does where

519
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: it's like I find myself almost unable to look away.

520
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: More.

521
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 5: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

522
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: Well, something that you said that really reminded me of

523
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: Live is how when folks are kicked off of one

524
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: platform who are making this kind of content or demonetized

525
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: or moderated in some way. It's like she will say

526
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: things like, oh, I was a banned from talk for

527
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: spreading the truth about you know, but they don't want

528
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: you to know, like I'm just being honest and people

529
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: can't handle it. She has made being moderated off of

530
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: TikTok and having to like pop up on Instagram and

531
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: then being demonetized there almost like a like a branding

532
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: thing of like, don't you want to know what I'm saying?

533
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: That it's too real for the Instagram sensors.

534
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: Yes, And it is like that kind of rhetoric is

535
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: unmistakably like similar to what you see from like the

536
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: alt right and what you see from conservatives who have

537
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: similarly mastered these online landscapes. They all use really similar rhetoric.

538
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: And I think that part of the larger picture here

539
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: that I also think has been kind of unexplored, is

540
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: that it's no coincidence that you see rising conservatism dominating

541
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: online spaces and the offline world, you see rising authoritarianism

542
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: around the globe at the same time that you see

543
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: this massive resurgence of pro eating just and just content

544
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: that glorifies extreme thinness for women. These movements are connected,

545
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 2: and Michelle Pilovich, the nutritionist, actually recently did a post

546
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: about this where she was like, if you are against

547
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: Trump like and you are a woman, and you are

548
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: a posor of the modern conservative party, you should be

549
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: nourishing your body. You should be eating enough food because

550
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: the ultimate goal of these sort of conservative, very misogynistic

551
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: spaces is that they want.

552
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: Women to be small.

553
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: They want women to take up less space, They want

554
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: them to be frail, unable to help themselves, and they

555
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: want them to be very preoccupied with their own appearance,

556
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: because it becomes an obsession that distracts from you being

557
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: able to participate in democracy to the fullest extent. It's

558
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: a distraction that prevents women from being able to occupy

559
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: the same positions that men do. So this sort of

560
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: pro eating disorder content is part of this larger picture

561
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: of women's oppression. And it's just no coincidence that, like

562
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: the influencers in the alt right spaces and the influencers

563
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: in the Skinese faces are using the exact same types

564
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: of strategies.

565
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: So I clock this all the time on social media,

566
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: and I feel like whenever someone says it out loud,

567
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: just the comments are like what are you talking about?

568
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: You're crazy da da da, And I mean I'll see

569
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: content that's like, you know, glorifying. It's not just being thin,

570
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: it's thin, blonde, rich, partnered sometimes like quiet and subservient.

571
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: Like it's just like like when you pull apart, the

572
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of things that they're saying goes along with with

573
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: like the good life in scare quotes that will become

574
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: available to you if you are first thin. It really

575
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: is like it becomes very clear that this is about

576
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: a very oppressive vision of the future where women are quiet, frail,

577
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: not really participating fully in public and civic life. Like

578
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: it's it all goes together. It does.

579
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 4: It does.

580
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: And a lot of times when you have these skinny

581
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: Talk influencers, they will talk about like like LUs Schmidt

582
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: talks about this, She's like, you need to be having fun,

583
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: you need to be living like a full, fulfilling lifestyle.

584
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: But what she's modeling and what she's showing as the

585
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: example of that is that she is like a model.

586
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 2: So she's telling women that they should aspire to their

587
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: currency and their worth and their value being their appearance.

588
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 2: And part of the flip side of this that's very unfortunate,

589
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: both for live Schmidt as an individual and for all

590
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: of the women and girls who she's influencing, is that

591
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: no matter how skinny you are, no matter how much

592
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: you are able to adhere to this beauty standard in

593
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: your youth, you will age out.

594
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 4: There is no future for you.

595
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: If your entire worth and being is rooted in how

596
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: you look as a young, conventionally attractive person. And that

597
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: is really unfortunate because I think that along the way,

598
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: women and girls are going to learn that these types

599
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: of expectations and these types of standards are built purposefully

600
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: to be something that can never be truly met and

601
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 2: never truly last.

602
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: Is this such a productive way to think about what

603
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: we were put on this planet to do? Yeah, Like

604
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: obsess about our weight and are the way that we look? Yes? Yes.

605
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: And you see this sort of rhetoric carryover into the

606
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: obsession around anti aging, and you have like billionaires who

607
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 2: are investing so much of their time and energy and

608
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: money into trying to literally stop the passage of time.

609
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: And it's like it's all connected because the modern conservative

610
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: movement is rhetoric that is about making a return to

611
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: what America was quote unquote great making your turn to

612
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: your childhood to sort of the American idealisms that never

613
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: truly existed, but you can just pretend that it was

614
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: in the past and it's something that we can go

615
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: back to. And the beauty standard in this ideal of

616
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 2: thinness fits into that so perfectly because it's something that's

617
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: sold as an attainable ideal, but you can never actually

618
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: truly get there when you go down this path of

619
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 2: self optimization or trying to stop aging, or trying to

620
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: constantly fit the ever shifting beauty standard. It's not something

621
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: you can win.

622
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not. And yeah, I agree with you. I

623
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: don't think it's a surprise that we have these rising

624
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: influencers saying the best thing you can be is hot, rich,

625
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: thin and mean. And the rise of this I concerned

626
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: this new conservative ideology.

627
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And people want to create this distinction, this

628
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: differentiation between what they view as like capital pe politics,

629
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: very serious, like what's happening in Congress, what are the

630
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: actual policies, what's the bill of the the text of

631
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: the law. But in reality, what the vast majority of

632
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 2: people are interested in is not capital pe politics, but

633
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: rather capital c culture and people on the right understand this.

634
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 2: I think it was Steve Bannon who said that politics

635
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: is downstream of culture, and that was part of the

636
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: key to unlocking Trump's wide stream like a wider appeal,

637
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: was creating this like cultural image around him that then

638
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 2: became a totem that his voters could project their desires onto.

639
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 2: And you see the same thing happening within the influencer space,

640
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: within the social media space, is that conservatism it doesn't

641
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: have as much should do with who's in office or

642
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: what they are doing in their position as elected officials,

643
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: as it has to do with what is the dominating culture,

644
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: what is everyone spending their time doing, what is the

645
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: what are the goals and the aspirations of the public.

646
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: And this has a powerful political connotation, and it's not

647
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: frivolous at all. It translates over to how people show

648
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: up and how they vote in the ballot box at elections.

649
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: Things like patriarchy and rigid gender roles don't just harm

650
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: women and girls, they hurt everyone. Online, young men are

651
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: also being said pretty toxic messages about how they need

652
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: to look to be successful. Many are being pushed into

653
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: a practice known as looks maxing, a movement that encourages

654
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: extreme physical self optimization in the name of attractiveness. For

655
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: folks who have never heard that word before, what is

656
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: looks maxing?

657
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: So looks maxing is kind of like the male version

658
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: of this that I alluded to a little bit earlier.

659
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: And I find this really interesting and it's really sad.

660
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: I spoke to this young man named Steven Iima who

661
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: is a college student in Texas, and he's this young

662
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: black man who has since pivoted his content into like

663
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: anti looks baxing and anti eating disorders, but he initially

664
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: fell down the rabbit hole. And so what looks maxing

665
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: is is it's a beauty standard for men that is

666
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: being sold again as this like attainable thing where if

667
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: you just do these like facial exercises and if you

668
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: just copy all of these like tips and tricks, then

669
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: you will be able to fit the male beauty ideal.

670
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 4: You will be muscular, you will.

671
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 2: Have very defined like jawline and cheek bones. And it

672
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 2: looks really bizarre on the surface to people who aren't

673
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: familiar with this subculture, and it gets mocked and made.

674
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 4: Fun of a lot because it will literally.

675
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: Be like you have to suck in your cheeks so

676
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: that you can have like the most pronounced cheekbones possible,

677
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: or like there was an article about how some of

678
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 2: the people in the looks maxxine communicate in the Looks

679
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 2: Maxing community were advocating like hammering your face into the

680
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: position that you wanted it to be in. It's alarming,

681
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: and so what's concerning about it to me also is

682
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: that you see the exact same sort of behaviors within

683
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: the extreme pro eating disorder spaces, like the extreme calorie deficits.

684
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: That's a mirror happening for boys and young men, or

685
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: for boys and men. And what I talked to Steven,

686
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: one thing that he told me is like this community

687
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: sold this like bake promise to him that if he

688
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: just did all of these things, he would have more

689
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: success with women, and he would be happier and his

690
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: life would be better. But when he got into that

691
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: community as a young black man, he realized that it

692
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 2: was incredibly racist. And this was ultimately the thing that

693
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: broke him out of it was he was like, there's

694
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: no place for me within this community if I'm not white,

695
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: And that understanding unlocked kind of like a new perspective

696
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: where he was like, this whole thing is built on

697
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 2: lies and fabrications, and it's just about harming yourself ultimately.

698
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: I think eating disorders are kind of a form of

699
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: self harm. And so within the looks maxing community and

700
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: within other parts of this online culture, you see this

701
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: desire to control and restrict and hurt yourself, and that's

702
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: sold to you as like how your life becomes better,

703
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: how you become more disciplined, how you experience more success.

704
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: But for the people who are trapped.

705
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 2: Within these communities, it is a very toxic cycle of

706
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 2: actually beating down their self worth and actually feeling worse

707
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: about how they look. And maybe using you fixed some

708
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: part of how you look, but now you've identified all

709
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 2: of the other things that need fixing. So it's really

710
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: bad for self esteem.

711
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 4: And I think it also.

712
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 2: Over time produces worse outcomes in terms of healthy living.

713
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: Do you see all of this getting better or getting worse?

714
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: What we often see when we pick up on these

715
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 2: like big cultural shifts is that things get a little worse,

716
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: but then ultimately they do get better. Like I think

717
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 2: things we're on the pathway for things to continue getting

718
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: worse as of right now. But the fact that you

719
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: have people picking up on this and realizing it is

720
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: a sign that the pendulum will swing back. And I

721
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: do believe that the pendulum will swing back, but I

722
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 2: think that it takes within this platform environment that these

723
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: social media companies have created for us to exist within.

724
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: You have to build up so much momentum for the

725
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 2: algorithm to redirect itself in any new direction, and right now,

726
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 2: all of that momentum is being built up behind things

727
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: like skinning Talk. So it's going to take a lot

728
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: of people speaking out against this and making content and

729
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: opposition for this before the major platform landscapes begin to

730
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: reflect sort of the opposition. But I do have fake

731
00:40:58,840 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: that we'll get there.

732
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just recently decided I started weightlifting for the

733
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: first time a couple of years, a couple of months ago,

734
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: and just like again, I'm not I'm not interested in

735
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: losing way, I'm not interested. I'm just interested in learning

736
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: about weightlifting as a beginner weightlifter. The way that my

737
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: none of my algorithms will ever be the same. Like

738
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: like the stuff that the stuff that Instagram now is

739
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: convinced that I want to see simply because I am

740
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: interested in weightlifting is like, oh, certainly you're anti vax

741
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait, what, like like the way, like my

742
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: algorithm will never be the same.

743
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I'm in the exact same boat.

744
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: I've spent so many months reporting on like eating disorders

745
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: that every social media platform is now convinced that I

746
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: am part of this like rabbit hole cycle. And that

747
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: is worrying to me because although the average social media

748
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: user is not a journalist studying these things for months

749
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: at a time, I feel like I'm living what someone

750
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: who's being on the pathway to being radicalized is seeing

751
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: on their social media feeds. And it's this is what

752
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: a lot of people are seeing on their social media feeds.

753
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 2: That's so concerning because there's just nothing healthy about being

754
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: bombarded with hours worth of this content on a daily basis.

755
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: And as we were talking about before, if we are

756
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: looking at this content with a critical eye, like and like,

757
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: it still gets me. I have to like catch myself saying, actually,

758
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: you don't want your body to look like this, or like, actually,

759
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: that's not a reasonable amount of calories for an adult

760
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: woman to be eating. I come on, if that's if

761
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: that's how it's hitting me as somebody who was looking

762
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: at this from a critical eye, imagine somebody who was

763
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: just scrolling, or somebody who was very young.

764
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, if I I can't even imagine having a

765
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: kid in this like social media landscape. But if I did,

766
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 2: I feel like if I were parent, I would want

767
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: to be having honestly, like daily conversations like with my

768
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: child about this to try to push back against some

769
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: of the narratives that they will inevitably be hearing not

770
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: only online but in their classrooms, among their friends and

771
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 2: their peers, for older relatives, or from people in their community.

772
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: Like these messages around thinness and weight and health and

773
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: beauty are so pervasive and it takes so much work

774
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: to even be into breaks through on a personal level and.

775
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: Fight back against them. Is that what you would suggest

776
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: parents should be doing, like really having conversations intentionally with

777
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: the young people in their life and maybe doing some

778
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 1: internal recalibration of the way that they internally think about

779
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: these issues.

780
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: Yes, one million percent. I think one of the biggest

781
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: things is that when you are in a position of

782
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 2: influencing someone else, whether you're a parent, whether you're someone

783
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 2: who does have a big social media following, or even

784
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: just in the way you interact with everyone around you.

785
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 2: It's like you do have to do that self introspection

786
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: to be like, what sort of negative and toxic and

787
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: harmful ideologies do I have to work on? And what

788
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 2: am I projecting to the people around me? What am

789
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: I modeling to the people around me. This can be

790
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: something as simple as when you grow up and your

791
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 2: mom looks in the mirror and is like, I hate

792
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: this about myself, or when your mother or when your

793
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: parental figure is constantly talking about because Dad's due this too,

794
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: constantly talking about like I need to lose weight.

795
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 4: I need to go on a diet.

796
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: I hate the way that I look you're modeling to

797
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: your kids and to the people who look up to

798
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: you and who are around you. That you should constantly

799
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: be self critical and then you should constantly be in

800
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 2: the state of working on yourself. And I think that

801
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 2: that is one of the most insidious aspects of diet culture,

802
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 2: is that it occupies so much of our time, energy, attention, money,

803
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 2: and lifestyle to trying to reach this unattainable ideal. So

804
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: I think that's something that we can all do, is

805
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 2: sort of do that introspection about the ways that we

806
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: carry diet culture into our lives and how that might

807
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 2: be affecting the people around us.

808
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: If someone out there listening needs help with all of this,

809
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: what can I do?

810
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: If you are struggling with this or if this content

811
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: has been having an effect on you, There are lots

812
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: of resources out there. There are more mental health professionals

813
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 2: and supports out there than ever, so never think that

814
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 2: you won't be able to get help or that it's

815
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: too late for you. There are always resources and things

816
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: that you can do to make things better.

817
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: If you're looking for support, check out Project Heal, an

818
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: organization with the mission to break down systemic healthcare and

819
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: financial barriers to eating disorder healing. Check them out the

820
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: Project hel dot org. Got a story about an interesting

821
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: thing in tech, or just want to say hi, You

822
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: can reach us at Hello at tegody dot com. You

823
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tenggody dot com.

824
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

825
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: me Bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed.

826
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: Creative Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is

827
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer.

828
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: I'm your host, bridget Toad. If you want to help

829
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review.

830
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 3: Us on Apple podcasts.

831
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

832
00:45:54,080 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts A heart

833
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: Then he lived.

834
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 3: Long, He lived