Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me from session four sixty two or the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. In this episode, I'm
Speaker 1: joined by licensed psychotherapist doctor Natalie Jones for a thoughtful
Speaker 1: conversation about what it really means to go no contact
Speaker 1: with people in your life who may be causing harm.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jones brings deep expertise in trauma, boundaries and emotional wellness,
Speaker 1: and she shares from both her clinical work and her
Speaker 1: passion for helping people build healthier relationships. In this conversation,
Speaker 1: we talk about how complicated this decision can feel, especially
Speaker 1: within families and tight knit communities, and why more of
Speaker 1: us are finding ourselves considering distance as an act of
Speaker 1: self preservation as conversations about boundaries and generational healing continue
Speaker 1: to grow. This feels like such a timely and necessary discussion,
Speaker 1: and I hope it offers you both clarity and reassurance
Speaker 1: if this is something you've been wrestling with. If something
Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session,
Speaker 1: or join us over and our patreon to talk more
Speaker 1: about the episode. You can join us at community do
Speaker 1: therapyfro Blackgirls dot com. But first, we are desperately in
Speaker 1: need of an emergency pop culture check in a lot,
Speaker 1: maybe even too much has occurred. And as a therapist
Speaker 1: but also someone who appreciates and loves pop culture, it
Speaker 1: wouldn't be me if I didn't dig into the mental
Speaker 1: health aspect of all of this. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Joy, I'm excited to be in conversation with
Speaker 2: you for our second pop culture segment here on the podcast.
Speaker 2: For those of you just joining us, this is a
Speaker 2: newer segment we're building out. We're taking moments from pop culture,
Speaker 2: what everyone's watching, talking about, maybe even debating, and using
Speaker 2: them as a starting point to think a little deeper
Speaker 2: about our mental health. So I'll bring in a few
Speaker 2: stories and doctor Joy will help us make sense of
Speaker 2: what's underneath them, what they might reveal about how we're
Speaker 2: relating to ourselves, to each other, into the world around us.
Speaker 2: Are you ready to get into it?
Speaker 3: I'm ready, Okay.
Speaker 2: So the first story of the week is Spirit Airlines
Speaker 2: shut down, and we're going to talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about accessibility to travel. So you guys may or may
Speaker 2: not know. Spirit Airlines abruptly shut down operations this weekend.
Speaker 2: After years of financial struggles, failed bailout efforts, and rising
Speaker 2: fuel costs. The airline, long known for ultra low fares,
Speaker 2: canceled all flights and shuttered its operations, leaving travelers stranded
Speaker 2: and driving up prices across the industry and for many,
Speaker 2: especially budget conscious travelers, Spirit was one of the few
Speaker 2: accessible options for air travel. So, you know, I've been
Speaker 2: thinking about what happens when affordability disappears from essential experiences
Speaker 2: like travel, and I'm curious, what are the mental health
Speaker 2: implications of feeling like certain experiences like a vacation or
Speaker 2: visiting family are no longer accessible to you.
Speaker 1: So first, at least, I really appreciate this question, right,
Speaker 1: because I think that it is the perfect example of
Speaker 1: something that you wouldn't necessarily think about having a mental
Speaker 1: health impact, but it actually does. Right when you think
Speaker 1: about like being excluded, that's the first thing I think about,
Speaker 1: is like being excluded from things that most people want
Speaker 1: to participate in. And I think it really highlights this
Speaker 1: othering that we find just across the board and lots
Speaker 1: of different categories and makes people feel like these are
Speaker 1: not things that are for me. So when you think
Speaker 1: about like class trips, right, Like class trips when I
Speaker 1: was in school used to just be kind of like
Speaker 1: to our local park or somewhere drivable, and now kids
Speaker 1: are kind of sometimes expected to fly to DC for
Speaker 1: a trip or you know, go to different places. And
Speaker 1: so when you think about even those kinds of things
Speaker 1: are impacted, and I think the mental health impact makes
Speaker 1: it so that people feel less. It makes it feel
Speaker 1: as though there are things that are not meant for me,
Speaker 1: and I think that that can cause a real hit
Speaker 1: to self esteem. It can really impact feelings of worthiness.
Speaker 1: I also think one of the things I was struck
Speaker 1: by related to this story was the abrupt nature, because
Speaker 1: it felt like we've heard rumblings about it and then
Speaker 1: by the end of the week it was completely done.
Speaker 1: And so I think business is business, people kind of say,
Speaker 1: but I'm always really concerned about the mental health impact
Speaker 1: of people on the workforce. Right, So the flight attendants,
Speaker 1: the pilots, all of the people who are servicing the airplanes,
Speaker 1: like just abruptly now have been terminated and don't have
Speaker 1: gainful employment in that same way. And so I just
Speaker 1: hope that we can get to a place where businesses
Speaker 1: maybe are able to be a little more thoughtful, a
Speaker 1: little more intentional about the rollout of difficult news like this.
Speaker 1: You know, I do understand sometimes it can't be avoided,
Speaker 1: but I think that that's also a huge mental health
Speaker 1: impact of this story.
Speaker 2: Oh, of course worse, I think across industries, when we
Speaker 2: see people get laid off so abruptly, it is jarring.
Speaker 2: You don't have the time to plan or to think
Speaker 2: about what your next move is. You have to scatter
Speaker 2: to figure it out. I have a bit of a
Speaker 2: follow up for you when we see the gap between
Speaker 2: the have and the have nots widening, and these experiences
Speaker 2: that are supposed to provide connection for people feeling like
Speaker 2: they're unaffordable. How can we still find connection? How can
Speaker 2: we You might not have answers about how can we
Speaker 2: still travel? But how can we still find connection when
Speaker 2: some of it feels out of reach?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, I mean I think it is easy to
Speaker 1: kind of think about, like, oh, let's just plan a
Speaker 1: girls trip, but a girl strip doesn't necessarily have to
Speaker 1: involve air travel, right, So I think it could be
Speaker 1: something where you do road trips together or look at
Speaker 1: other ways to be intentional about connecting. You know. I
Speaker 1: know one of the things that I talk about a
Speaker 1: lot is like old adult sleepovers or pedomal parties where
Speaker 1: maybe you're in a hotel or an airbnb or even
Speaker 1: in some one's home and just kind of have old
Speaker 1: fashioned sleepovers, which I think are missed art for adults.
Speaker 1: So things like that are adult field days I'm also
Speaker 1: a big proponent of, and so I think it really
Speaker 1: just forces us to be more creative about the ways
Speaker 1: that we can connect and making sure that when we
Speaker 1: are thinking about ways to bring people together. We are
Speaker 1: not excluding now based on this idea that an air
Speaker 1: travel may not be as easy as it was before
Speaker 1: Spirit closed down. And even then, you know, like prices
Speaker 1: have gone up across airlines, right, And so I think
Speaker 1: even beyond this news, I think it is important for
Speaker 1: us to just be much more intentional about looking at
Speaker 1: different ways to connect that kind of meet all different
Speaker 1: income levels.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. So next we're going to get
Speaker 2: into Nick Cannon's dating double standard. So Nick Cannon recently
Speaker 2: appeared on the TMZ podcast and admitted to having a
Speaker 2: double standard when it comes to his fifteen year old twins.
Speaker 2: He said that his son Moroccan is allowed to date,
Speaker 2: while his twin sister Monroe is not. He says there
Speaker 2: are things out there that I have to protect my
Speaker 2: daughter from. This has sparked conversations around gender norms, protection,
Speaker 2: parenting differences when it comes to boys and girls. And
Speaker 2: I think the core tension in here is what does
Speaker 2: protecting daughters become limiting to their autonomy? And I feel
Speaker 2: like in so many Black families, girls are more tightly
Speaker 2: controlled when it comes to dating and sexuality, while boys
Speaker 2: are given more freedom. How does this dynamic shape black
Speaker 2: girl's sense of autonomy, self trust, and relationship boundaries as
Speaker 2: they grow up.
Speaker 3: Woo.
Speaker 1: So I had not heard this story. I was holding
Speaker 1: my brother because you never know when Nick Cannon, like,
Speaker 1: what kind of story might be kind of hitting the
Speaker 1: handlines at this point. But this does feel like something
Speaker 1: that I think is sadly fairly common across families, This
Speaker 1: idea that like, boys are able to do certain things
Speaker 1: that girls are not. And I think you really hit
Speaker 1: the nail on the head, and that there are things
Speaker 1: that young people and children need to develop skills around
Speaker 1: regardless of gender in gender presentation, right, And so the
Speaker 1: idea that it's okay for his son todate, but not
Speaker 1: his girl his daughter to date, like, when is she
Speaker 1: actually going to be able to develop the kinds of
Speaker 1: skills she needs to become a young woman and an
Speaker 1: adult in this world. Now, you may make the argument
Speaker 1: that fifteen feels too young that I'm willing to debate,
Speaker 1: but if it is okay for your son, then it
Speaker 1: also should be okay for your daughter. And then it
Speaker 1: makes me think what kinds of things are does she
Speaker 1: needs to be protected from? And are you having those
Speaker 1: conversations with your son, right, because in theory, that's what
Speaker 1: you're thinking, like, oh, you know, I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: the guys are gonna do, and you know, like, so
Speaker 1: what kinds of conversations are you actually having with your
Speaker 1: son so that other people's daughters, that is, who they
Speaker 1: are dating, don't need protecting from. And I do think
Speaker 1: it really limits the ability for, like I said, like
Speaker 1: young women and young girls to develop the kinds of
Speaker 1: skills that are necessary. We actually just had a conversation
Speaker 1: in our Patrion community recently. A community member submitted a
Speaker 1: question about so much of our lives as women, we
Speaker 1: are taught to kind of go to school, we'll focus
Speaker 1: on education, kind of be all about the books and
Speaker 1: career stuff, and then at some point when our mid
Speaker 1: twenties or so, family starts then asking all these questions
Speaker 1: about local what are you gonna settle down, and where
Speaker 1: you're gonna have kids and all these things, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: all my life you've said go do this thing, right,
Speaker 1: and so when was I developing the skills to actually
Speaker 1: be successful in relationships? And I think that this is
Speaker 1: a part of that conversation as well. I do think
Speaker 1: we have to get more expansive in our ideas about
Speaker 1: what it looks like for young people to develop relationship skills,
Speaker 1: because we can't just think that at twenty something, everybody
Speaker 1: knows the answer is about how to manage conflict and
Speaker 1: how to stand up for yourself, how to be assertive,
Speaker 1: how do you make sure that your desires are a
Speaker 1: center if we've never let them practice that? And that
Speaker 1: is largely what you're doing in dating at fifteen, right,
Speaker 1: It's teaching young people to be in tune with what
Speaker 1: kinds of things they're interested in, how to stand up
Speaker 1: for themselves, how to set boundaries, like all of those
Speaker 1: things that are really important life skills.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. And I have a question outside
Speaker 2: of the gender dynamic of it all, what happens when
Speaker 2: you just see your sibling be treated differently than you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure that that has made for some very
Speaker 1: uncomfortable conversations in the house. And like you said, like,
Speaker 1: how are you even explaining that because there is no
Speaker 1: real logic in like, oh, your twin brother can do
Speaker 1: this and you can't, because you can't even then say
Speaker 1: it's about age, like oh, this is something that you'll
Speaker 1: get to do a little later, and so I think again,
Speaker 1: for young people, they don't always have the language or
Speaker 1: the understanding of like adults. Well most of the times
Speaker 1: they don't, And so I think sometimes it can mean like, well,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? Like why does this sibling get
Speaker 1: special treatment? I mean again, it can be an impact
Speaker 1: on self esteem or even feelings of worthiness, And so
Speaker 1: I think you have to be very careful, especially with twins,
Speaker 1: that there is not this like favoritism or behavior that
Speaker 1: one twin is allowed that the other one is not.
Speaker 2: Absolutely so for our third and final topic of the day,
Speaker 2: you couldn't have me asking questions on the first Monday
Speaker 2: in May or the hust and not talk about the Mechdala.
Speaker 2: So this past Monday, the Metropolitan Museum of Art hosted
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty six Metcala, officially launching the exhibit Costume Art.
Speaker 2: This year's theme explores fashion as a fine art form,
Speaker 2: specifically examining how garments have shaped and responded to the
Speaker 2: human body over the last five thousand years, and the
Speaker 2: dress code for the met Gala was Fashion is Art.
Speaker 2: When I think about how the average person interacts with
Speaker 2: the met Gala, I think a lot of people want
Speaker 2: to be more creative with their looks. They want the opportunity,
Speaker 2: whether it's a wedding or someone's milestone birthday, to have
Speaker 2: permission to dress up. And sometimes I do think there's
Speaker 2: this stigma or this idea that if you aren't famous,
Speaker 2: if you aren't going to a huge event, you're being
Speaker 2: too much if you dress up. And while the metala
Speaker 2: is cool to watch, I think it can make us
Speaker 2: feel like we're stuck in this rut. And for someone
Speaker 2: who wants to start dressing more creative but feels like
Speaker 2: their life is too normal for it, how do you
Speaker 2: get over the fear of being judged or being looked at,
Speaker 2: quote unquote weirdly.
Speaker 1: Wooh So, I actually just read something I think it
Speaker 1: was in the New York Times, a column about getting
Speaker 1: weirder as we age, and I think that that is
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful things about getting older, is
Speaker 1: that you kind of like let go of some of
Speaker 1: those ideas around fitting into a box and kind of
Speaker 1: being normal, so to speak, and get more creative and
Speaker 1: feel more permission to be more of yourself. And I
Speaker 1: think fashion is one of those places where it can
Speaker 1: be a pretty low barrier to entry. If you're wanting
Speaker 1: to be more experimental, and I think it is a
Speaker 1: great way to kind of start stepping out and taking
Speaker 1: more risks. And I talk about all the time about
Speaker 1: just because you feel like people are paying attention to
Speaker 1: you or you feel weird, it's okay to sit with
Speaker 1: the feeling and still do the thing anyway. And so
Speaker 1: I think fashion is one of those things where you
Speaker 1: can actually be experimental, kind of take some opportunities to
Speaker 1: just dress up on a random and Thursday, just because
Speaker 1: this is also one of the ways that I think
Speaker 1: the Internet has actually done as a favor, and that
Speaker 1: you see so many like blogs and channels that are
Speaker 1: really focused on just finding cool, random people on the
Speaker 1: streets who have like cool fashion sense. And so I
Speaker 1: think in some of those ways, like the weirdness and
Speaker 1: the kind of stepping out of the box has been
Speaker 1: celebrated and given a platform to kind of exists, whereas
Speaker 1: maybe you know, five to seven years ago that would
Speaker 1: not happen. But I also think it is really important
Speaker 1: for you to know that people are not paying attention
Speaker 1: to you as much as you think that they are. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: if you think about your own kind of inner monologue
Speaker 1: when you are going throughout your day, you're thinking about
Speaker 1: what are you cooking for dinner, where the kids need
Speaker 1: to be this afternoon, what other work stuff do I
Speaker 1: need to do. You're far more interested in involved in
Speaker 1: yourself than you typically are in other people, and so
Speaker 1: I think that idea that you are in a spotlight
Speaker 1: anytime you're out in public isn't always incredibly realistic. And
Speaker 1: so if you are interested in being more experimental with
Speaker 1: your fashion and just dressing up just because it's Thursday,
Speaker 1: I think that is a great thing to do.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: I think again, especially as we get older, it is
Speaker 1: a good idea to kind of lean into all of
Speaker 1: the parts of ourselves. And once you leave this earth,
Speaker 1: you don't want to have any regrets about like, oh
Speaker 1: I wish I would have done that thing. And so
Speaker 1: if you feel like it is on your heart to
Speaker 1: be in a ball gown just because it's Saturday morning
Speaker 1: going to the former's market, go and do that, and
Speaker 1: make sure you take some fabulous pictures.
Speaker 2: And for the person who's kind of on the fence
Speaker 2: and they still feel like they need a reason to
Speaker 2: get dressed up, what would you say to them?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not hard to create a reason, I think. So,
Speaker 1: you know, can we celebrate five hundred days at your
Speaker 1: new job or oh, I'm celebrating whatever, like it's the
Speaker 1: first week of May. Like, I think creating your own
Speaker 1: celebration is fine. But I also think it could be
Speaker 1: a fun idea to talk to friends and like make
Speaker 1: this a group activity. So maybe y'all plan some affair
Speaker 1: where people are forced to get more dressed up again.
Speaker 1: I think to our earlier conversation about being in more
Speaker 1: creative and intentional by connecting with one another, having a
Speaker 1: fashion show as a friend group could be a fun
Speaker 1: thing to do. You know, I think giving yourself permission
Speaker 1: where it does not otherwise exist is actually a great
Speaker 1: I think emotional regulation, mental health kind of strategy.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love that. And now you're giving me ideas
Speaker 2: to find a reason for the entire team addressing.
Speaker 1: Virtual fashion show. Well at least, but wait, but we
Speaker 1: cannot because I know this is like your super Bowl day.
Speaker 1: So I also need to know who are you most
Speaker 1: looking forward to seeing at the met galup.
Speaker 2: So Paloma Elsesser is one of them. Always I think
Speaker 2: her met loooks are always really underrated and the days
Speaker 2: leading up to the met She's always posted like inspiration.
Speaker 2: This year it's comde Garson, who I don't know if
Speaker 2: she's being dressed by, but that's the inspo she's posted,
Speaker 2: and they always have. I think garments, especially for women,
Speaker 2: that subverb how we look at the female form. So
Speaker 2: I always really appreciate that. At the twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: Billboard Music Awards, Erica bad Do wore this dress that
Speaker 2: was almost kind of alike to Sarah Bartman, who was
Speaker 2: the woman who was experimenting on by scientists, the black woman,
Speaker 2: And so I think Erica Baddu is already really grand
Speaker 2: in the way that she plays with proportions her hats,
Speaker 2: and then I think that was such a big moment
Speaker 2: for her, especially like no, I don't want to say
Speaker 2: people don't pay attention to the Billboard Music Awards, but
Speaker 2: to wear that there was a statement. So I'm really curious.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if she's going, but I'm curious what
Speaker 2: she's gonna wear, because she's also done some really fun
Speaker 2: stuff with like Marnie in the past, and her and
Speaker 2: her daughter were in a Marnie campaign. Another brand that
Speaker 2: doesn't like subscribe to, like the naked dress, small waist,
Speaker 2: wide hips of it all, and so I think the
Speaker 2: people who lean into that are going to be really fun.
Speaker 2: So Erica Paloma Elsas, they're always Tiana Taylor like, she's
Speaker 2: always great, Rihanna like, I don't I heard Zindeia's not going.
Speaker 2: So I'm a little bit sad about that. But one
Speaker 2: of my favorite brands, who dressed Regina King last year,
Speaker 2: who decides war. I'm hoping they have some placements on
Speaker 2: the carpet as well, which is a black owned brand,
Speaker 2: So I'm excited to see what they do. And a
Speaker 2: lot of their work is inspired by like church art
Speaker 2: and cathedrals and things like that, and so I think
Speaker 2: there's an intersection between like the history of fashion as
Speaker 2: art and what they already do. So that's going to
Speaker 2: be exciting.
Speaker 1: Ooh, so we should be in store for lots of
Speaker 1: great I am of course excited. This is Asia Wilson's
Speaker 1: first year on the host committee, and so I am
Speaker 1: very excited to see you what kind of looks she
Speaker 1: will give us it as well as Injelies.
Speaker 2: Absolutely well, we will see you all next week and
Speaker 2: stay tuned on our socials. We are going to be
Speaker 2: asking guys what should we name this segment, and we
Speaker 2: kind of just got into it and don't have a
Speaker 2: name yet, so we could definitely use some help from
Speaker 2: our loyal listeners.
Speaker 1: Thanks Salise. More from our conversation after the break. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, doctor Jones.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1: It's so imposure to chat with you again. The conversation
Speaker 1: we had about narcissism continues to be a community favorite.
Speaker 1: It's one that people revisit quite often, so I thought
Speaker 1: that it was great to bring you back for this
Speaker 1: conversation because it feels like a bit of a spin off,
Speaker 1: though not quite. The conversation we're having today is around
Speaker 1: going no contact with family and friends and romantic partners.
Speaker 1: So I think that there are a lot of definitions
Speaker 1: when people are talking about no contact. But in terms
Speaker 1: of your work, what do we mean when we're talking
Speaker 1: about going no contact?
Speaker 3: So no contact to me means exactly that. It means
Speaker 3: that once you go no contact, there is no more
Speaker 3: contact after that. This is definitive, it's done. It's not
Speaker 3: meant to be an action to encourage another action, meaning
Speaker 3: I'm not going no contact with you to be punitive
Speaker 3: or to get you to try to hurry up and
Speaker 3: reach out to me and do all those things. It's
Speaker 3: no contact because I am trying to protect my mental peace.
Speaker 3: I have decided that this relationship is not healthy for
Speaker 3: me anymore, and I think it's better for us to
Speaker 3: be done with each other. In releasing this relationship, it's
Speaker 3: done with love, but it's more to protect me and
Speaker 3: my piece and where I'm at, that is what no
Speaker 3: contact is.
Speaker 4: We are done.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the nuance that you ad it said that,
Speaker 1: doctor Jones, because I do feel like sometimes and I
Speaker 1: don't know that this is the definition, but I do
Speaker 1: feel like there is sometimes a oh, is this a
Speaker 1: manipulation kind of tactic or is it a step before
Speaker 1: a step? But you are saying like, no, this is
Speaker 1: we tried all of the steps and this is the
Speaker 1: decision I'm making about what I need to take care
Speaker 1: of myself and my mental health.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, So this is not manipulativeness. There's not ill
Speaker 3: will behind it. And there are people who try to
Speaker 3: use it that way where they try to manipulate, but
Speaker 3: that's not actually no contact. Those are people that are
Speaker 3: still very much caught up in toxic relationship cycles who
Speaker 3: are still trying to get things to happen on their terms,
Speaker 3: or they're just used to having certain reactions and certain
Speaker 3: relationship dynamics. But when you go no contact, this is
Speaker 3: not meant to be mean. It's not meant to manipulate you,
Speaker 3: and it's not done to try to hurt you. Now,
Speaker 3: how you may interpret that, that's on you, but it's
Speaker 3: meant to be Mostly from my piece, it's saying definitively,
Speaker 3: I don't want relationships like this anymore. I'm in a
Speaker 3: different space for that.
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think in both of our work,
Speaker 1: you know, when a client or somebody finally gets to
Speaker 1: this place, it is not usually a first step, right, Like,
Speaker 1: this is not typically the first action that somebody takes.
Speaker 1: Typically there have been lots of different things that have
Speaker 1: happened before somebody makes the decision to go no contact.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about, like what's typically going on in
Speaker 1: somebody's life when they make the decision to go no contact.
Speaker 3: So I don't think it's the first step for a
Speaker 3: lot of people. I think a lot of things tend
Speaker 3: to happen before people go no contact. I don't think
Speaker 3: it's necessarily healthy for all these things to happen before
Speaker 3: people decide to go because usually so much disrespect has
Speaker 3: happened in the relationship, usually before children or people decide
Speaker 3: to go no contact with their parents, usually it's been
Speaker 3: years worth of stuff. So a lot of times the
Speaker 3: steps that tend to happen before people go no contact.
Speaker 3: A lot of times again there's like so much disrespect
Speaker 3: that happens, and their children question, like, am I not lovable?
Speaker 3: Do my parents love me? Am I being a disrespectful child.
Speaker 3: Family members or the community at large will come into
Speaker 3: play here and say, well, you only get one mama,
Speaker 3: you only get one daddy. You need to forgive it
Speaker 3: and forget it and move on. These are your parents.
Speaker 3: So a lot of times what tends to happen is children,
Speaker 3: especially our condition to shoulder the burden of disrespect for
Speaker 3: many years before they do that, and everything under the
Speaker 3: sun is typically happening as a part of that dynamic.
Speaker 3: And so what they will tend to do is they'll
Speaker 3: come to somebody like me and they'll say, is there
Speaker 3: something wrong with me? Am I wrong for thinking this way?
Speaker 3: What is going on? What should I do with this? Well?
Speaker 3: If I've thought about doing this, but I was told
Speaker 3: by my sister, my brother, my aunts, my grandma, and
Speaker 3: all of these type of people that I'm selfish and
Speaker 3: that I need to get over it, or that my
Speaker 3: feelings aren't valid, or I'm being shown by the community,
Speaker 3: my church community even that I need to honor thy mother,
Speaker 3: honor thy father. And that basically means that I have
Speaker 3: to neglect my own emotions before I'm able to do that,
Speaker 3: before I'm able to say or do anything to protect myself.
Speaker 3: And so I'm not really clear on what that means.
Speaker 3: So what has happened, especially when it come to somebody
Speaker 3: like me, is we get clarity around what's going on,
Speaker 3: what you're needing from the relationship, and what certain things
Speaker 3: have meant. So if there's been some disrespect that's going on,
Speaker 3: or betrayals or things like that, they need to get
Speaker 3: clarification and validation. Is this something that like a big deal?
Speaker 3: Is this something that like I should be worried about.
Speaker 3: In what I've learned to tell people over the years
Speaker 3: is if you take the title away from that person,
Speaker 3: So the title of that person was not mom or dad,
Speaker 3: but was anybody else in your life? What would your
Speaker 3: actions be right? Will we be sitting here having this conversation?
Speaker 3: Would there be so much turmoil Because a lot of
Speaker 3: times people will allow their parents to get away with everything,
Speaker 3: including murder, and only because that's my mama, that's my blood,
Speaker 3: that's how we are, especially if you're in the black community.
Speaker 3: But if we take that away and say, would you
Speaker 3: allow that in any other aspect of your life, then
Speaker 3: why are we allowing that here? Because they're actually treating
Speaker 3: you worse than your worst enemy. So there's all of
Speaker 3: that sort of processing. There's also processing what that would mean,
Speaker 3: what that would look like to go no contact? How
Speaker 3: would your life look? How do you want your life
Speaker 3: to look if you were to go down this road?
Speaker 3: Is that something that you're really ready to let go?
Speaker 3: And so usually there's like a series of actions, there's
Speaker 3: like a series of confirmations or things that happen before
Speaker 3: people actually even get to that step. It's not a
Speaker 3: decision that many people take lightly. Many people what they
Speaker 3: tend to do is they may go low contact, so
Speaker 3: they may stop talking to whomever for a little bit
Speaker 3: and see how that feels. I always encourage people to
Speaker 3: do that. Take little vacations or holidays from that person,
Speaker 3: if you will to see how your life feels without
Speaker 3: them in it. So if you, for example, if you
Speaker 3: talk to your mother every day and your mother's cussing
Speaker 3: you out, she's violating your boundaries, and then you take
Speaker 3: like two weeks off from her, how does your life
Speaker 3: look within those two weeks away from her? And a
Speaker 3: lot of times it's significantly better. I'm not anxious, I'm
Speaker 3: not depressed, I'm not suicidal, I'm not second guessing myself.
Speaker 3: I actually feel relieved. I don't have to prete and
Speaker 3: when I'm in the room with her, pretend to actually
Speaker 3: like her, pretend to actually want to engage with her,
Speaker 3: I actually feel more authentic towards myself. So those are
Speaker 3: a lot of the steps that we would take in
Speaker 3: going that direction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you mentioned, like there are a lot
Speaker 1: of steps involved. And usually once somebody gets to the
Speaker 1: place of feeling like, Okay, I'm going to cut off
Speaker 1: contact with this person. I'm going to go no contact
Speaker 1: with this person, the response from other people is often
Speaker 1: what gets in the way of them sticking with this decision. Right,
Speaker 1: So you mentioned it's not just cutting that person off.
Speaker 1: It could also mean cutting off connections to other people
Speaker 1: in the family and other people in the friend group.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about that and how you might
Speaker 1: manage being cut off then from these other people as well.
Speaker 3: I'm going to say something that's probably non traditional. Probably
Speaker 3: we go against the grant. I jope even mind their
Speaker 3: own damn business. Mind your own damn business, if you
Speaker 3: don't pay my bias. If you don't know what I've
Speaker 3: been through, right, because a lot of times people were
Speaker 3: talking out of turn. They weren't raised under the same roof.
Speaker 3: They don't know what I go through day to day
Speaker 3: with this person. They're just talking based off of what
Speaker 3: their experiences are or how they would handle things. But
Speaker 3: they don't know what this person is like behind closed doors.
Speaker 3: You don't know my mom is calling me everything but
Speaker 3: a child of God. You don't know that my mom
Speaker 3: tried to sleep with my boyfriend or all these other things.
Speaker 3: Right that other situations that people go you don't know
Speaker 3: what's going on. So if I can't take I don't
Speaker 3: recommend people take blinded vice from those who are not
Speaker 3: familiar with your situation or familiar with the true person
Speaker 3: that you're dealing with. A lot of people that tell
Speaker 3: you to do that, they don't even really know who
Speaker 3: that person is. They're dealing with the actor. They're dealing
Speaker 3: with the person who puts on the mask and goes
Speaker 3: out and performs for the world. But they don't know
Speaker 3: the genuine person, which is who I have to deal with,
Speaker 3: who I'm talking to on the phone with, who I'm
Speaker 3: laying in bed next to, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 3: You don't know that actual person. So I'm going to
Speaker 3: respectfully need for you to stay in your lane and
Speaker 3: mind your business, and I'm allowed to be the author
Speaker 3: of my own life, right, And so I think it
Speaker 3: really takes that sort of stands and a lot of
Speaker 3: people look at that as being selfish. You do have
Speaker 3: to be selfish to take care of your own mental health.
Speaker 3: You do have to be selfish in order to mind
Speaker 3: your own well being. That's not selfish in a bad way.
Speaker 3: It's like you have to take care of yourself first
Speaker 3: before you can take care of anybody else. But do
Speaker 3: you ask anybody else for advice when you go to
Speaker 3: a doctor when you're feeling sick? Do you sit around
Speaker 3: and wait for somebody? You ask somebody else for advice
Speaker 3: when you have to eat, or when you have to
Speaker 3: take certain medications, do you say, hey, I don't know
Speaker 3: if I should eat or not? Do you really do that?
Speaker 3: I think people, when you've been abused for so long,
Speaker 3: you've been conditioned to second guess your voice, second guess
Speaker 3: your opinions. I invite people to, hey, take control of
Speaker 3: your life back, take your autonomy back, start making your
Speaker 3: own self directed decisions where you don't need permission from
Speaker 3: anybody else.
Speaker 1: What do you think is often misunderstood in this conversation?
Speaker 3: That's a good question. I think what's misunderstood, and I
Speaker 3: think a lot of that that has cultural nuance, right,
Speaker 3: But I think probably the biggest misunderstanding is that children
Speaker 3: don't deserve especially when you're talking about going no contact
Speaker 3: with parents, when you talking about going no children, adult children,
Speaker 3: going no contact with parents, I think the biggest misunderstanding
Speaker 3: is that children don't deserve respect. Children should not be
Speaker 3: allowed to make their own decisions. Children don't deserve to
Speaker 3: be apologized to that children just you should take copious
Speaker 3: amounts of disrespect, You should take copious amounts of betrayal,
Speaker 3: and forget how you feel, just make up every single time.
Speaker 3: Just forget how you feel give them a pass for
Speaker 3: the simple fact that it's your parents, And I think
Speaker 3: that's the thing, or that children should be self sacrificing
Speaker 3: because their parents decided to give birth to them. So therefore,
Speaker 3: because I'm your mother and I decided to give birth
Speaker 3: to you, no matter how I treat you, you should
Speaker 3: always be self sacrificing because I brought you into this
Speaker 3: world and I have labored the cost of having you. Therefore,
Speaker 3: you need to be eternally grateful and you are forever
Speaker 3: indebted to me because.
Speaker 1: Of that, And it feels like, you know, I think
Speaker 1: most recently there was this conversation gained more attraction because
Speaker 1: Oprah did a podcast conversation about like people who have
Speaker 1: gone no contact, and like, one of the headlines that
Speaker 1: was used was that it was a trend. And you know,
Speaker 1: of course, a lot of people who have made the
Speaker 1: decision to go no contact don't feel like it was
Speaker 1: a trend, because I think trend makes it feel as
Speaker 1: though this is a decision you made lightly right. But
Speaker 1: the other part of that story has been that a
Speaker 1: lot of the parents have come out and said, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize that there were these things that they
Speaker 1: felt about me, or the parents have felt that it
Speaker 1: was unwarranted right that I didn't do anything, so to speak,
Speaker 1: for this person to go no contact with me. Do
Speaker 1: you think that that is typically the case, doctor Jones,
Speaker 1: that like parents don't realize that all of these things.
Speaker 1: If we're talking about parents, right, because that's the example
Speaker 1: we've used, do you think it's the case that parents
Speaker 1: don't realize like the ways that they have harmed their
Speaker 1: children or the people who they've been caregivers for and
Speaker 1: are like shocked by this decision.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think that's the case. I think what
Speaker 3: happens is that parents don't care. Again, it's more or
Speaker 3: less when you become a parent. There are different stages
Speaker 3: of parenting, just like there's different stages of a child
Speaker 3: being a child. And I think what tends to happen
Speaker 3: with parents. A lot of times, toxic parents still want
Speaker 3: their child to obey, be obedient to me, and be
Speaker 3: subservient to me. You are a child, which means you
Speaker 3: have no voice, you have no power, and no authority.
Speaker 3: And so what I've noticed a lot of times with
Speaker 3: these parents who do this, they often speak to their
Speaker 3: children in a condescending manner like you do not have
Speaker 3: the right to feel the way that you do, to
Speaker 3: speak up and say anything. You need to stay in
Speaker 3: a child's place, right, And it's often that sort of
Speaker 3: negati rhetoric, and it becomes a rhetoric so much so
Speaker 3: that they don't want to hear what their child is
Speaker 3: saying to them. They don't respect their child's evolution into adulthood,
Speaker 3: but they don't respect their children in general, because I
Speaker 3: think even when a child is small or a baby,
Speaker 3: they still need their voice respected, their boundaries respected. Children
Speaker 3: need to be listened. They're their own autonomous human being.
Speaker 3: And what you have a lot of times in these
Speaker 3: cases with these parents is like, I don't see my
Speaker 3: child as an individual. I don't want my child to
Speaker 3: be a free thinker. I want my child to be
Speaker 3: is something that I control every aspect of their life.
Speaker 3: I have to say so, and I don't really want
Speaker 3: any sort of rebuttal. I don't want any individuality. I
Speaker 3: don't want any sort of difference of opinion. I just
Speaker 3: want what I want is I bulldoze my way through
Speaker 3: that relationship. And so when you have parents that think
Speaker 3: like this, they just want what they want and they've
Speaker 3: heard it before. Most of the adult children have tried
Speaker 3: to talk to them. They don't want to hear it.
Speaker 3: They shoot it down, and parents will give their children
Speaker 3: the silent treatment. Now that's more of the manipulation piece,
Speaker 3: where the parents will stop talking to their child and
Speaker 3: the stonewall the argument, and eventually the child sort of
Speaker 3: caves in and okay, mom or okay Dad, I have
Speaker 3: to do this have a relationship with you. I have
Speaker 3: to give in and let you have your way, otherwise
Speaker 3: we don't have a relationship. So a lot of times
Speaker 3: children are in this relationship through manipulation and fear. If
Speaker 3: I don't cater to my parent, if I don't give
Speaker 3: them what I want, then we don't have a relationship.
Speaker 3: I want some kind of relationship with them. I don't
Speaker 3: want to be in this world alone or without my parents,
Speaker 3: so I have to capitulate and give them what they want.
Speaker 1: And you know, you've talked about this and and frame
Speaker 1: this as a way of kind of people making this
Speaker 1: decision to protect their mental health as a step towards
Speaker 1: their well being. But oftentimes people are seen as difficult
Speaker 1: or dramatic or doing too much if they are setting
Speaker 1: boundaries in this way, What do you think needs to
Speaker 1: change for us to expand that conversation beyond people being
Speaker 1: dramatic if they make a decision like this.
Speaker 3: What does not even mean for somebody to be dramatic?
Speaker 3: And again I think that's the thing, like, what does
Speaker 3: that even mean for someone to be dramatic? How you
Speaker 3: would handle a situation is not necessarily how I handle
Speaker 3: a situation. So being dramatic is open to interpretation, right,
Speaker 3: And you also have to think about like which a
Speaker 3: lot of people don't, right, But you also have to
Speaker 3: think about what's happening on the other end for somebody
Speaker 3: to have such an adverse reaction to what's going on,
Speaker 3: if that makes sense, right, So if I'm being dramatic,
Speaker 3: happening on the other end of that where I'm being dramatic, right,
Speaker 3: especially if you know that that's not my personality style,
Speaker 3: or if you don't know me at all, Right, So
Speaker 3: I think that's one thing. But I also think, going
Speaker 3: back to what I was saying before, sometimes people need
Speaker 3: to know their place and respect a boundary. So a
Speaker 3: lot of times people will not interfere or speak up
Speaker 3: until the abuser triangulates them and brings them into a situation.
Speaker 3: What an abuser warns is an audience. They'll quickly have
Speaker 3: a lot of people come to defend their honor. And
Speaker 3: so when you think about children who go no contact,
Speaker 3: the first thing I said, where is the community? Where's
Speaker 3: the community been all this time? So where's where have
Speaker 3: your grandparents been all the time? Where have ANNs and
Speaker 3: uncles and people who've actually witnessed the abuse, Where have
Speaker 3: they been all this time? What have they been doing?
Speaker 3: Have they interfered and been a safety net for you
Speaker 3: up until this point? And a lot of times it's no,
Speaker 3: they haven't been, or oh they always chose to look
Speaker 3: the other way, or they've said, oh, it's not my business.
Speaker 3: But now, all of a sudden, all these people come
Speaker 3: rushing to the aid of or to the defense of
Speaker 3: someone who's an abuser. So they're very selective with their
Speaker 3: help and interventions, and it's all one sided. And again
Speaker 3: it's very it's mostly geared towards one person, where as
Speaker 3: you ostracize the other person or keep them out, or
Speaker 3: it's like you need to just calm down and you
Speaker 3: need to be more subordinate and get back in your lane.
Speaker 3: And so I would say that people, if they're going
Speaker 3: to intervene or be a safe space, you need to
Speaker 3: listen and hear with what's really going on and not
Speaker 3: come in towards the tail end of the story or
Speaker 3: be swayed by one person on everything, If that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Do you think that there's a difference between going no
Speaker 1: contact with parents versus like a sibling versus like a
Speaker 1: friend or a former friend. Is there a difference in
Speaker 1: what the no contact looks like?
Speaker 3: Typically, I wouldn't say there's a difference and what no
Speaker 3: contact looks like. What I would say is is typically
Speaker 3: more difficult for people to go no contact with their
Speaker 3: parents because again, it's constantly being hammered. You only get
Speaker 3: one set of parents, and it's for parents. You do
Speaker 3: only get one mom, you do only get one dad.
Speaker 3: So I would say it's harder for them to do that,
Speaker 3: at least in my experience in working with them, than
Speaker 3: it is with siblings and with friends. Friends you can
Speaker 3: go out and get another one. Siblings, if you have
Speaker 3: another one, it's usually a little bit easier another one
Speaker 3: that's supportive or that you at least have a relationship with.
Speaker 3: But parents that's a little bit more finite for people,
Speaker 3: and so once you're.
Speaker 1: Done with them and those are all you have, what
Speaker 1: does as a clinician supporting somebody through the grief process
Speaker 1: of going no contact look like, Because even though it
Speaker 1: may have been an abusive situation, not a great situation,
Speaker 1: it is the situation that you had, and there is
Speaker 1: of course still typically some grief related to having to
Speaker 1: cut off that relationship. So what does that really like
Speaker 1: to support somebody after the decision?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think it's important to educate people on
Speaker 3: what no contact is. So there's a lot of education
Speaker 3: around what it is and what it isn't. Right, there's
Speaker 3: a difference between no contact and low contact, but also
Speaker 3: educating a person on why they would do certain things.
Speaker 3: So people need to be fully educated and informed, and
Speaker 3: so I think there's that. There is also making sure
Speaker 3: that a person is ready to do that. So again,
Speaker 3: it's a finite situation. It isn't you stick your toe
Speaker 3: in the pool and then you come back, and then
Speaker 3: you stick your toe in the pool again and then
Speaker 3: you come back. It really should be more of a
Speaker 3: this is a final decision. I'm okay, I'm at peace
Speaker 3: with it, and so understanding what that means. And so
Speaker 3: what I have done when people have started to talk
Speaker 3: about that is to advise people like, Okay, well you
Speaker 3: want to be sure to do that. And part of
Speaker 3: the ways in which you want to be sure to
Speaker 3: do that is maybe you do want to take a
Speaker 3: break from your parents, because it's easier to say I'm
Speaker 3: going to take a break as opposed to I'm going
Speaker 3: no contact, So maybe you might want to take an
Speaker 3: extended break is see what your life is like without
Speaker 3: that parent first before you commit to something that should
Speaker 3: be a permanent decision. And so people do that, but
Speaker 3: then we also go through the grieving process of what
Speaker 3: that means, because a lot of times going contact is
Speaker 3: really like grieving two deaths and one person. So is
Speaker 3: grieving for the parent that you actually hope you could
Speaker 3: have and the parent you actually do have that is
Speaker 3: physically still here on earth right And a lot of
Speaker 3: times the grief is harder for the parent that you
Speaker 3: wish for, that you longed for, that you hope that
Speaker 3: they would magically turn into one day. And so a
Speaker 3: lot of times that's hard for people is to like
Speaker 3: process the death of what could never be and what
Speaker 3: will never be, as opposed to what is, and so
Speaker 3: we work through ways of doing that and then we
Speaker 3: move through that, and sometimes that's typically the longest part,
Speaker 3: is grieving the death of what will never be. And
Speaker 3: then of course you get to that place of acceptance.
Speaker 3: When you get to that place of acceptance, you say, Okay,
Speaker 3: well I've gotten I've let go of the person that
Speaker 3: will never be, and now I have accepted my parents
Speaker 3: for who they actually are or that person for who
Speaker 3: they actually are. And so I'm not sugarcoating anything, and
Speaker 3: I understand this is what actually needs to be done
Speaker 3: for my mental health, for my sanity in order for
Speaker 3: me to go through life, to have the type of
Speaker 3: life that I want. I understand the ramifications of it.
Speaker 3: I understand how this person has affected me all of
Speaker 3: these years, and I don't like that. So I'm allowing
Speaker 3: myself to be honest with myself about what this means.
Speaker 3: And then once we move to the place of acceptance,
Speaker 3: we can allow space for other people to come in
Speaker 3: and fill that void. So I often encourage allowing space
Speaker 3: for like mother like or father like, or a grandmother
Speaker 3: like or a grandfather like figures to come into your
Speaker 3: life to provide that nurturing care and support that you
Speaker 3: wish for all those years with your parents, but you
Speaker 3: never got doctor Jones.
Speaker 1: If you had a client who you were working with
Speaker 1: this on and they are kind of in the beginning stages,
Speaker 1: like not quite sure if they want to go no contact,
Speaker 1: is this typically a conversation that you'd be encouraging them
Speaker 1: to have to let mom know, like, hey, I no
Speaker 1: longer want to be involved in your life or want
Speaker 1: to have you a part of mine, or is it
Speaker 1: kind of just gradually just we don't talk anymore.
Speaker 3: I don't usually encourage that. I don't usually encourage it,
Speaker 3: especially when there's a lot of manipulation and stuff going on,
Speaker 3: or your parent is high conflict. If you have a
Speaker 3: parent that's highly conflicted, is volatile, physically aggressive, and thinks
Speaker 3: I don't encourage trying to have those types of conversations,
Speaker 3: especially when you yourself aren't clear. When you become more
Speaker 3: clear and definitive and you can actually walk away and
Speaker 3: you're not invested in a result, then maybe you can
Speaker 3: have that conversation. Everybody's situation is different. Sometimes people have
Speaker 3: parents that are highly volatile and it's just not safe
Speaker 3: for them to do that. So everybody's situation is different,
Speaker 3: but I don't encourage that type of conversation until you're clear,
Speaker 3: you're pretty definitive of what you're gonna do, and you're
Speaker 3: ready to be done after that. Otherwise I think that's
Speaker 3: more or less something you need to be processing with
Speaker 3: your therapist. You need to have your own sense of
Speaker 3: clarity and autonomy on that decision and come to terms
Speaker 3: with that. In my experience, a lot of times when
Speaker 3: people go no contact when their parents, and this isn't
Speaker 3: every situation. Everybody's situation is different, but a lot of
Speaker 3: times when people go no contact with their parents, it's fine.
Speaker 3: They're not reaching out to their parents, aren't reaching out
Speaker 3: to them. That person is the only person that's keeping
Speaker 3: the relationship alive. So there's that. You can also have
Speaker 3: parents that are highly enmeshed as well, that they want
Speaker 3: to be involved in every aspect of their child's life.
Speaker 3: But a lot of kids what they fail to realize
Speaker 3: if they don't do anything there, the other person is
Speaker 3: not going to necessarily do anything until they need or
Speaker 3: want something. And so a lot of times if they're
Speaker 3: not overdoing it trying to make that connection with the parent,
Speaker 3: things might wither away all on their own.
Speaker 1: The other question I have, Doctor Jones, is around like
Speaker 1: the logistics, especially when we're talking about a family member. Right,
Speaker 1: you just said virtual or like telephone contact is one thing,
Speaker 1: but what about family events? Right? So let's say I've
Speaker 1: gone no contact with my dad, but then my brother
Speaker 1: is getting married. So then do I make the decision
Speaker 1: not to go to the wedding because I'm no contact
Speaker 1: with dad? Do I go and just avoid contact with dad?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: What decision making can you explore there?
Speaker 3: That's a good question, and I think you have to
Speaker 3: assess how important that relationship is with you. So if
Speaker 3: that relationship is still very much important with you, a
Speaker 3: still very much a part of your life. If your
Speaker 3: brother's getting married with the example, so if you want
Speaker 3: to show up for your brother, then show up for
Speaker 3: your brother. Don't allow anybody to take that power away
Speaker 3: from you. You can still go in and again I
Speaker 3: would encourage processing this with your therapist, but always have
Speaker 3: your boundaries, have your limits. You could certainly be cordial
Speaker 3: if you guys are going to be in the same space,
Speaker 3: but chances are if you give that parent too much
Speaker 3: energy or too much airtime, they might show up and
Speaker 3: act a fool, and you could let the other person know, right,
Speaker 3: So you could let your brother know, Hey, I'm going
Speaker 3: to show up for you, and you kind of know
Speaker 3: where I'm at with this relationship and I want to
Speaker 3: to go smoothly. But here's what I'm not open to.
Speaker 3: And I want this day to be about you and
Speaker 3: not about our family conflict. And so these are my intentions.
Speaker 3: I'm going to show up for you. I'm going to
Speaker 3: do X, Y and Z, but outside of that, I
Speaker 3: can't be a part of all this other stuff, right,
Speaker 3: So you could set limits. You can also prepare the
Speaker 3: other person without it encroaching too much on their celebration,
Speaker 3: but you could let them know what you will and
Speaker 3: won't do and just be very graceful about it.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, and what does
Speaker 1: it look like for us to maybe support somebody in
Speaker 1: our lives who has made the decision to go no contact? Right,
Speaker 1: So instead of saying like, oh, you only have one father,
Speaker 1: you only have one mother, Like, what does it actually
Speaker 1: look like to support somebody in their decision to go
Speaker 1: no contact?
Speaker 3: Everybody is a little bit different, but I think the
Speaker 3: best way is to ask them, How can I support you? In?
Speaker 3: What ways? Do you feel like support is needed for
Speaker 3: you while you're.
Speaker 4: Going through this.
Speaker 3: Some people don't want to talk about it. Some people
Speaker 3: may want to talk about it later on. Some people
Speaker 3: may need this, that and the other thing. And so
Speaker 3: you can offer, You can ask and say, how can
Speaker 3: I show up for you? Would it be helpful if
Speaker 3: I did X, Y, and Z. I want to respect
Speaker 3: whatever your boundaries are, so you can just ask and
Speaker 3: see how you can support them.
Speaker 1: Letter Jales. Something that often comes up around these conversations,
Speaker 1: and I think we've had some version of this conversation before,
Speaker 1: like these terms that are often thrown around in terms
Speaker 1: of somebody being toxic or abusive, or how are you
Speaker 1: working with clients to kind of get some clarity around
Speaker 1: what they're meaning when they say certain things.
Speaker 3: Bil That's a good question. So a lot of times
Speaker 3: what I ask people to do is to clarify that.
Speaker 3: So how do you define that? Like what are you
Speaker 3: using to gauge that? Right? Especially now that social media
Speaker 3: is as big as as it is, a lot of
Speaker 3: people are getting their ideas or their definitions from social media.
Speaker 3: So I always ask them to clarify that and tell
Speaker 3: them to explain to me how that person is impacting
Speaker 3: their life and their livelihood. Right, So let's piece this out.
Speaker 3: How is this person affecting your life? Is this something
Speaker 3: that was a one off situation or is this like
Speaker 3: something that's happened over the years many times over? Like,
Speaker 3: how do you define that? Right? Because those are words
Speaker 3: that I've used, right, And those are words that you
Speaker 3: have used and that Oprah or whomever has used. How
Speaker 3: do you define that for yourself? And a lot of
Speaker 3: times people will have different meanings. It's also helpful to
Speaker 3: take into take culture into context because I've worked with
Speaker 3: people who are from all over so how I define
Speaker 3: things or look at things in the US might be
Speaker 3: different from how people from Africa look at things over there, right,
Speaker 3: Because the US is a very individualistic society, so we're all, hey,
Speaker 3: this is what I want from me, this is what
Speaker 3: I need from me. But then you might have people
Speaker 3: that listen to me or watch you this from a
Speaker 3: very collectivist society. So they can't move just out of
Speaker 3: their family like we say we can move. It's going
Speaker 3: to be different. And I try to take into account
Speaker 3: cultural nuances and things like that as well.
Speaker 1: You know, You bring up an interesting point because I
Speaker 1: think definitely somebody from a more collectivist culture would probably
Speaker 1: have more of a struggle with go no contact, right,
Speaker 1: because it is so much of one big unit. Can
Speaker 1: you share anything there or any kinds of considerations you
Speaker 1: might think about if somebody does come from that kind
Speaker 1: of a cultural background.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so, I think even within collectivists, which is they're
Speaker 3: looking for the greater good of the family unit, the
Speaker 3: greater good of the community. But still there is some level,
Speaker 3: or should be, some level of individual autonomy. So even
Speaker 3: within a collective group, all the members still have to
Speaker 3: be doing well. And every culture is a little bit different.
Speaker 3: There's some even within cultures there's subculture. Some require complete subordination,
Speaker 3: meaning that you can't say anything, or some require that
Speaker 3: if you are a woman, have to get in line right,
Speaker 3: And some people if you take it to an elder
Speaker 3: in your family and then you get some of vice
Speaker 3: from an elder, they can help you navigate the situation.
Speaker 3: So when I try to use tools within that community
Speaker 3: whenever it's possible, it's not always possible to do that,
Speaker 3: especially if the whole family is toxic. So for example,
Speaker 3: and this isn't meant to be discriminatory or prejudice or anything.
Speaker 3: But I've worked with Arab cultures before as well, and
Speaker 3: a lot of times in several Arab cultures, the whole
Speaker 3: family could.
Speaker 4: Be at odds.
Speaker 3: So everybody is fighting, and so we look at ways
Speaker 3: on which what's most beneficial for you. But they're also
Speaker 3: very heavily in meshed. So while everybody may be fighting,
Speaker 3: we might work together, we might live together, we might
Speaker 3: go to church together. So I can't just get up
Speaker 3: and walk out, otherwise that's going to create a whole
Speaker 3: different polarity. So it's talking about what we can do
Speaker 3: within that culture that's also safe for you within your family.
Speaker 3: And then we also talk about whether or not that's
Speaker 3: realistic or not. And sometimes it's not realistic to stay
Speaker 3: connected to the entire family unit without having to walk
Speaker 3: away from all of it, because all of it is toxic,
Speaker 3: all of it is abusive. We put hands on each other,
Speaker 3: men have sexually abused within my family, whatever the case
Speaker 3: may be. Sometimes we can't stay connected, and so we
Speaker 3: talk about what's realistic, what's practical, what you're willing to do,
Speaker 3: and whether or not that's feasible for you to have
Speaker 3: some peace and clarity. I hope that helps to answer
Speaker 3: your question, doctor Joy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: We know that it is incredibly difficult to leave abusive
Speaker 1: situations right in like domestic violence kinds of situations. We
Speaker 1: know that they're like seven times before somebody leaves us
Speaker 1: it suation. So it is incredibly difficult to extract yourself
Speaker 1: from a relationship that is abusive. What kinds of things
Speaker 1: make it more likely that somebody is able to remove
Speaker 1: themselves and permanently go no contact? What kinds of supports
Speaker 1: do you think need to be in place?
Speaker 3: Again, everybody's different, but I think the biggest thing would
Speaker 3: be finances. So if you're able to navigate this world,
Speaker 3: I think just being able to cover your cost of living,
Speaker 3: that's probably going to be a huge one. Like being
Speaker 3: able to take care of yourself, being able to cover
Speaker 3: all of your living expenses, you will be able to
Speaker 3: navigate this world much easier versus someone who is financially
Speaker 3: dependent on someone else or who doesn't know anything about
Speaker 3: managing finances. So I would say that that's huge because
Speaker 3: that's probably the number one thing that I would say
Speaker 3: that people fight over, or the number one way that
Speaker 3: people control other people as well, So I think that's
Speaker 3: number one. Number two, and again it doesn't mean it's
Speaker 3: less important. But number two is your mental health and
Speaker 3: well being. So if you have sound mind, you have
Speaker 3: confidence and wherewithal in other areas outside of your life,
Speaker 3: you can make sound decisions for yourself. And I'm not
Speaker 3: saying that we can't make mistakes, because we can certainly
Speaker 3: make mistakes, but by and large, you know what it
Speaker 3: takes to be a functioning adult in this world, and
Speaker 3: you can manage most things. I think that's number two, right.
Speaker 3: You could take care of yourself. If your mental health
Speaker 3: gets out of balance, you will make that decision to
Speaker 3: go to therapy. You will go and take that antidepressant
Speaker 3: if necessary. You have that way of rationalizing and taking
Speaker 3: care of yourself and prioritizing yourself in that way. Number
Speaker 3: three I would say validation. You have to be able
Speaker 3: to validate yourself. There's a good chance that when you
Speaker 3: walk away, you go no contact, you might lose a
Speaker 3: lot of the validation that you have that cycle of
Speaker 3: people that were in line with the person that was
Speaker 3: abusive to you. You might lose family validation, you might
Speaker 3: lose family support, you might lose relationships or relationships can
Speaker 3: be deeply impacted by there could be a ripple effect.
Speaker 3: So you have to be okay with that, and sometimes
Speaker 3: a lot of people. You have to be okay with
Speaker 3: being by yourself. You got to be okay with navigating
Speaker 3: the world all alone and it's you and just you
Speaker 3: and nobody else, and nobody cares, because once you've walked away,
Speaker 3: you have become public enemy number once. You have to
Speaker 3: be okay with navigating spaces by yourself. You have to
Speaker 3: be okay with having your birthday by yourself, having your
Speaker 3: way by yourself, all of these things, right, you have
Speaker 3: to be okay with that, And so you have to
Speaker 3: also be okay with starting over and really building your
Speaker 3: community from scratch. You don't have that choice when you're
Speaker 3: a kid, when you're little, your baby, your family and
Speaker 3: things like that are already chosen for you. But now
Speaker 3: you basically have to pick and choose, and that could
Speaker 3: be a beautiful thing. You have to pick and choose
Speaker 3: your own community now, and so you literally have to
Speaker 3: build everything from the ground up, and so you have
Speaker 3: to be okay with that. A lot of people don't
Speaker 3: like being by themselves, and that's really one of the
Speaker 3: harder parts with them, like I don't want to be
Speaker 3: by myself. I don't want to be without my partner,
Speaker 3: I don't want to be without my parents. So you
Speaker 3: have to be okay with being alone. You have to
Speaker 3: get comfortable with being alone and standing on your own
Speaker 3: because a lot of times that's what's wired to be
Speaker 3: an autonomous individual, to be a free thinker, to be
Speaker 3: a person that is okay with having different schools of thought.
Speaker 3: So you have to be okay with that.
Speaker 4: I would say.
Speaker 3: Those are the top three things, and number four I
Speaker 3: think is being okay with having conversations about your decisions.
Speaker 3: So what that looks like is okay being okay with saying, oh,
Speaker 3: I don't have a relationship with my parents, and being
Speaker 3: able to stand in your truth without feeling ashamed, without
Speaker 3: feeling embarrassed, without feeling like you have to explain or
Speaker 3: justify or say something on the back end, so people
Speaker 3: feel like you're an okay person or nothing's wrong with you.
Speaker 3: I think that's the bigger thing, is feeling like you
Speaker 3: don't have to justify yourself. You don't have to explain yourself.
Speaker 3: You made this decision and you're okay with that, And
Speaker 3: I think that's the thing, is being able to navigate
Speaker 3: those conversations about that.
Speaker 1: That's incredibly helpful. Thank you for that, doctor Jones. You know,
Speaker 1: in the early part of the conversation, you said that
Speaker 1: you feel like people almost wait too long before before
Speaker 1: they go no contact, because they tend to put up
Speaker 1: with a lot of disrespect, a lot of abuse. How
Speaker 1: do you know what the line is? How do you
Speaker 1: know whether just some good old boundary setting will work
Speaker 1: with a relationship versus when it may actually be time
Speaker 1: to go no contact.
Speaker 3: That's a good question, doctor Jorian. I'm forty six years old,
Speaker 3: so I think about this a lot differently than when
Speaker 3: you probably interviewed I don't know how many years ago
Speaker 3: when you first interviewed me. Now that I'm almost fifty,
Speaker 3: I would say, and this might be a little harsh
Speaker 3: for people, but I would say, you want to draw
Speaker 3: the line at the first sign of disrespect, At the
Speaker 3: very first sign of disrespect. It can be very hard
Speaker 3: to walk it back, especially with family. Family knows what
Speaker 3: buttons to push because they've created and designed those buttons,
Speaker 3: and so a lot of times that disrespect would go
Speaker 3: on and on and on, and sometimes it gets to
Speaker 3: a point where you don't even know you're being disrespected anymore.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, because it's so common, it's, Oh,
Speaker 3: that's just how we do things. That's how they've always
Speaker 3: talked to me. Oh, it's no big thing until someone
Speaker 3: from the outside looking in as WHOA, what happened there?
Speaker 3: What was said there? That's crazy that your mama talks
Speaker 3: to you like that, or that your daddy talks to
Speaker 3: you like that? What is that about? And so, now
Speaker 3: that I'm older, I would say, you want to get
Speaker 3: very comfortable with drawing the first line, withdrawing the line
Speaker 3: at the first sign of disrespect, and that's with anybody,
Speaker 3: because if you don't, people will continue to disrespect you
Speaker 3: with family and things like that. I understand you definitely
Speaker 3: want to speak to that and you want to nip
Speaker 3: that in the bud right away. But chances are, if
Speaker 3: you're listening to your podcast, my podcast, chances are you're
Speaker 3: an adult. So chances are that's been going on many
Speaker 3: years before they came to me and you to listen,
Speaker 3: right so, we're probably already at a point where it's
Speaker 3: gotten to be gotten to be crazy, and so what
Speaker 3: I would do then, is I would set the limits.
Speaker 3: I would say, you know what, you need to do
Speaker 3: some things before we have that conversation. I'm going to
Speaker 3: pull back some of my energy. And so maybe what
Speaker 3: that looks like if my mother, as a hypothetical example
Speaker 3: of my mother has gotten comfortable with being disrespectful to me.
Speaker 3: A good example would be if I've told my mother
Speaker 3: something in confidence and my mother turns around and tells
Speaker 3: everybody who would listen all the things that I've told
Speaker 3: her in confidence, ultimately betraying me. I'm not going to
Speaker 3: tell you things in confidence anymore. I'm not going to
Speaker 3: tell you or share things with you that I would
Speaker 3: not mind if they were published on the front page
Speaker 3: of the newspaper. So you're going to be treated just
Speaker 3: the same as I would treat like a work associate.
Speaker 3: Right when it comes to my personal information, You'll have
Speaker 3: to learn just like everybody else learns about that type
Speaker 3: of stuff, Right, So you don't get the same amount
Speaker 3: of privilege that I've just been giving you to my
Speaker 3: own detriment, if that makes sense. So I'm a little
Speaker 3: bit more selective about what I share with you. I'm
Speaker 3: also a lot more conditional right in terms of our relationship, Like,
Speaker 3: we can't go back to a place of comfort until X, Y,
Speaker 3: and Z happens. And that's not me trying to exert
Speaker 3: my power or authority or being manipulative over my mother.
Speaker 3: It's like, in order for us to have a good relationship,
Speaker 3: or to even see if we have the potential for
Speaker 3: a good relationship, maybe we got to go to therapy.
Speaker 3: We have to go to a neutral third party. We've
Speaker 3: got to talk about some stuff, and we have to
Speaker 3: really establish those boundaries. So if we can get back
Speaker 3: to a place of understanding, if we can get back
Speaker 3: to a place where there's respectful communication, well, I don't
Speaker 3: want to hear it thereists. I don't want nobody in
Speaker 3: my business. Well, these are what my conditions are, Like
Speaker 3: I love you as my mother, be like my conditions are.
Speaker 3: In order for us to continue like this, we have
Speaker 3: to get to a place where we can respect each other,
Speaker 3: where we can communicate and talk to each other without
Speaker 3: you calling me everything but a child of God, without
Speaker 3: you getting out of character and things like that. So
Speaker 3: I would say, those are some of the things that
Speaker 3: we can do, but you have to be the agent
Speaker 3: of change. Because what tends happen, especially when we're talking
Speaker 3: about our parents, especially if your parents are older, if
Speaker 3: they're like sixty, seventy, eighty ninety or however old they are,
Speaker 3: there's a good chance, I won't say always, but there's
Speaker 3: a good chance that your parents are who they are
Speaker 3: and they're not changing. They're not changing for you, they're
Speaker 3: not changing for anybody because they don't see anything wrong.
Speaker 3: So you have to be the agent of change.
Speaker 4: And your life regardless of whether or not they change
Speaker 4: or not. And that can be difficult, right, like to
Speaker 4: know to your point around the grief of the parent
Speaker 4: that you wish that you had coming to terms with
Speaker 4: the idea that this is who they are, and I
Speaker 4: got to deal with.
Speaker 1: The reality of it. Thank yes, Well, this has been
Speaker 1: so helpful and I think a lot of our community
Speaker 1: will really appreciate everything you shared. Doctor Jones. Please remind
Speaker 1: us where we can stay connected with you. What is
Speaker 1: your website as well as any social media channels you'd
Speaker 1: like to share.
Speaker 4: Absolutely so, I'm.
Speaker 3: Across all social media platforms. Probably the one that's most
Speaker 3: popping right now this my TikTok, And of course we've
Speaker 3: been pods sisters for I don't know how many years now,
Speaker 3: what is it like? Eight years? Is it goinger? You
Speaker 3: years short?
Speaker 1: I think closer to ten, doctor Jones.
Speaker 3: No, I think, yes, I've lost some COVID makes me
Speaker 3: for some time yet, so ten years we've been joined
Speaker 3: this thing, right, But you know, of course, you can
Speaker 3: find me on my podcast A Date with Darkness podcasts
Speaker 3: my website Doctor Natalie Jones dot com. So I have
Speaker 3: some other things that I have in the works for
Speaker 3: you guys that are going to be showcased soon enough.
Speaker 3: But doctor Natalie Jones dot com. You can find me
Speaker 3: on there, and that gives you the link to everything.
Speaker 3: And of course I appreciate you having me on here.
Speaker 1: Of course, thank you so much for joining us again.
Speaker 1: We'll be short to include that in our show notes.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy doctor Jones was able to return and
Speaker 1: chat with us for this conversation. To learn more about
Speaker 1: her and her work, be sure to visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Session
Speaker 1: for sixty two, and don't forget to text this episode
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Speaker 1: us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This
Speaker 1: episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indi Tubu, and Tyree Rush.
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so
Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward
Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 4: Take good care.