WEBVTT - #020 Jason Flom with The San Antonio Four 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:03.440 My interview with the San Antonio four was one of 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.160 the first ones that I recorded in front of a 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.360 live audience, and we did it at south By Southwest 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.360 and the episode originally aired on April seventeenth of twenty seventeen. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.280 The good news is these four extraordinary women who went 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:23.239 through this impossible ordeal, frame job and persecution and false conviction. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.240 In twenty eighteen, they finally had their criminal records expunged 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.800 fully expunged. Cassandra Rivera started working in a law office 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.960 in twenty seventeen. Elizabeth Ramirez married a woman named Angel 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:37.680 who she met in prison in February of twenty eighteen. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.760 Anna Vasquez get Ready for this started serving as the 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.400 director of outreach for the Innoctance Project in Texas in 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.519 March twenty sixteen, and in June twenty nineteen, she was 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.160 appointed as a representative of the Houston Forensic Science Center, 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.200 where she will help to oversee Houston forensic scientists, providing 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.680 a valuable perspective on the consequences of flawed evidence analysis 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:02.240 and confirmation bias and Chris D. Mayhew is now studying 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.360 at the Vettech Institute of Houston, pursuing her dream of 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.280 becoming a veterinarian that was put on hold for over 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:21.320 fifteen years because of a crime she didn't commit. With 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.039 the police banging on the door, open up. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.440 The choice to be in that lineup was the last 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.480 choice I made as a free man. A year later, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.520 I ended up writing in the system. 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.320 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:37.959 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.080 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:41.399 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:41.679 with that. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.600 Somebody was able to look at my picture in a 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.200 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.560 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:54.840 might have to play in my hanging. 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.080 They had been told that two prison officers would have 0:01:58.120 --> 0:01:59.720 to participate in my execution. 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.320 Now walk back inside that prison for the last time. Man, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:16.120 all help, broke loops. Man, this is wrongful conviction. Wow, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.480 how's everybody doing out there? South By Southwest? Let's go. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.080 So I'm really happy to be here. I've been coming 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.640 to south By Southwest for many years, but in the 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.480 past I always came down in my other job, my 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.200 other life as a record executive and checking out bands, 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.280 which I'll be doing while i'm here, but this time 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:39.320 I'm here as the host of Wrongful Conviction, which is 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:42.160 a podcast that I started after having worked with the 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.399 Innocence Project for over twenty years. I'm a founding board 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.880 member of the Innocence Project, and it's been my calling 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:53.120 in life to help exonerate people who are factually actually 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.280 innocent from prison, and to help them after they have 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.160 been exonerated, to reintegrate back into society, which is of 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.799 course a whole nother malla wax because it's getting out. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.639 You know, people see in the newspapers, the celebration on 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.040 the courthouse steps with the family and the lawyers and 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.320 the balloons and the press. But then, as these women 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.400 can attest, it's a tough road even after that. So 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.919 it was a logical extension for me to start this podcast. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.120 And today I'm particularly excited because the first time I'm 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.120 doing it in front of a live audience, which is you, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:25.880 So thanks for being here. We're here today to talk 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:31.160 about and to talk with Annabasquez, Cassandra Riviera, Elizabeth Mariirez, 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.200 and Christy Mayhew, who are the San Antonio four, as 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:35.800 well as their attorney, Mike Ware. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.800 In nineteen ninety seven, despite believing their innocence would prevail, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.080 the four were quickly found guilty. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.400 They were convicted twenty years ago of sexually assaulting two 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:46.200 little girls. 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.400 The San Antonio four still can't quite comprehend what happened. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.720 The little girls claimed they were raped during a drug 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.440 fueled satanical rage with a gun pointed at their head. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.440 But then one of the alleged victims recanted her story, 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.920 same for the forensic testimony. Those and other factors convinced 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.120 the court to exonerate these women. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.520 Their attorney, Mike Ware, says this was a classic miscarriage 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.640 of justice brought about by a panic over the women's 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:15.800 lifestyle and a rush to judgment. 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:20.080 So welcome to all of you, and thanks for being here. 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.760 For those of you who are not familiar, this case 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.760 was a case in which two little girls claimed to 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.159 have been sexually assaulted in a very strange and fantastical 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.480 scenario that made no sense to anybody who was actually 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.640 paying attention. But the two actually most common causes of 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.120 wrongful convictions were both prevalent factors in this case. One 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.440 is I woulds misidentification. In this case, it's particularly as 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.120 I was victim wrongful identification and there was a crime 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.920 that never even happened. The second most common cause is 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.880 junk science, and that may seem counterintuitive, but in this case, 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.880 there was a doctor who testified as to the sexual 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.320 assault that had taken place, but in fact it had 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:03.359 never taken place, falls squarely in the area of junk science. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.000 And then there was a third factor, which was inherent 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:10.880 bias and prejudice because each of these women had recently 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.520 come out as being gay, which in the nineties in 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:17.160 San Antonio wasn't an acceptable thing to be right. In fact, 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.240 it was still illegal in Texas back then, which is insane. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.599 But that's beside the point I want to get into 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.360 the story. Let's go back and let's start with you 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.920 this situation. It must have been just a surreal thing 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:30.760 to be caught up in. What was your life like 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.320 prior to getting caught up in this crazy criminal justice nightmare? 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.760 You know, recently graduated from high school. I mean, I 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.240 was an athlete during those years. I had started school 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.080 college education, and you know, I was looking forward to 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.279 the future and becoming a registered nurse. That was my 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.080 go back then, and you know, lots of friends. I mean, 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.279 I was having the time of my life. Actually, you know, 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:53.479 you had your whole life ahead of you. 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.000 Yeah, of course, of course. And then the next thing 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.719 you know, you're being branded in the press and everywhere 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.800 else as this sort of monster. Right, And there was 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.920 a satanic panic in the nineties as well that sort 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:06.840 of got caught up in this thing too. And you 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.000 were accused. Well you were accused because there was a 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:11.720 whole setup. But we'll get to that, right, There was 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:16.080 a reason why these girls invented this story. And you know, 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.479 I want to move to Cassandra and talk to you 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.760 a little bit about this as well. Take us back 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.839 to the time when this all went so horribly wrong. God, 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:25.040 it was. 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.000 It was a very dark time for us. It was 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.560 back in nineteen ninety four. We were, like Anna said, 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.600 we're living our lives. We're enjoying ourselves. And we were 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.600 just hanging out with friends, just living normal lives. We 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.000 had just come out. I had just come out. Me 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.040 and Anna were in a relationship with each other. I 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.120 was raising my two small children, and all of a 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.120 sudden we were hit with these false allegations and it 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.040 was the biggest nightmare that you can even think of, 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:51.839 to just wake up one day and being told that 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.080 you're accused of lesting children. 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:56.840 And Elizabeth, it was your nieces, right, who are nine 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.760 and seven at the time, And it's fair to say 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.080 that our father put them up to this because of 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:06.280 an unrequited situation that he had, and it's crazy how 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.479 people could behave in these circumstances, and what he did 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:11.680 is in a certain way. Not only were you all 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.080 victims of this, but so were the little girls right right, 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.360 because they were forced under threat of violence, these young, 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.240 impressionable little girls who were basically playing with Barbie dolls, 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:24.840 and that led to these the line from how they 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.040 were playing with Barbie dolls too, you must have been 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.360 sexually assaulted if you're taking the clothes off and putting 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:31.600 them on the barbie dolls, right, I mean, yeah, who 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.320 wouldn't think that is such a crazy thing. But for you, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.240 it's even more personal because of the fact that you 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:38.960 were really at the center of all this because it 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.080 was your nieces and it was this non relationship with 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:44.640 a guy who actually had been married to your. 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.160 Sister, right, right, that's correct. They would come over and 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:48.880 we would visit and they would stay over. So it 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.840 was just a natural family thing that we did. And 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.640 all of a sudden there come these charges and being 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:57.880 accused of this crime and then including our friends and 0:07:57.920 --> 0:07:58.800 it also and. 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:00.960 Ultimately, you know, we'll get to that. But the older 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.600 of the two girls recanted her testimony many many years later, right, 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.040 a younger one yet, Yes, And Christy, you were Liz's 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.080 roommate at the time, right, yes, Well, let's go back again, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.240 Like what was your life like at the time. You 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.360 were not some serial sexual offender who was out praying 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.600 on young children either, right, like waiting by the ice 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:21.240 cream stand. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.640 Actually, like four days after I graduated, I was going 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.800 to Texas and him. My dream was always to be 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.320 a Venarian. So actually I had taken a break from 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.319 school and went back to San Antoniano, was working working 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.480 at a grocery store. Through there I met Liz and 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.000 then later on she was pregnant, so I was staying 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:42.520 there to help her out. And then that's when the 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.000 allegations came about, because our nieces came over like for 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.240 a week to stay. It was like summer vacation during 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.520 the end of it. Yeah, and then shortly after that 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.920 we were being accused, and you know, we molest them 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.480 during that week that they stayed there because you know, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.120 Cassieanna would come and hang out. We were all friends, 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.480 you know, just an ordinary life. We're all just young, 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.640 enjoying life when trying to get started on a career. 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.360 Right. And it's interesting too, right, how society loses in 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.600 this situation too. You were going to be a veterinarian, 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.680 a nurse, a mother. It's like everybody loses in this situation. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:21.520 And in this case, it's extra tragic because of the 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.680 fact that it's a crime that never even happened. It 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.800 wasn't like you were the wrong people, there was no crime, right, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.160 And then we see that not infrequently, unfortunately, these things 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.400 just they sort of gained momentum of their own, and 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.319 somebody's got to be held responsible because nobody wants to 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.160 admit that they're wrong, even when they know it right. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:41.840 And Mike, let's turn it to you for a second. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.959 How much of a factor was the climate at the time, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.440 the fact that they were lesbians in this right, because 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.439 they were little girls, they were lesbians. I'm guessing in 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.720 San Antonio in the nineties you probably had a hard 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.439 time finding a jury that wasn't somewhat homophobic. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.559 Well, you're exactly right. I wasn't involved in the trials, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.000 but in going back and reading the transcripts of the 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.360 trials that you're exactly right about the jury Vanire and 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.120 the inherent bias against lesbians that was coming out in 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.480 the Vordyre process. I think the real role that the 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.880 fact that they were gay, and it just recently had 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.000 come out is is that the accusations in this case 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.040 were inherently preposterous. I mean, two little girls said they 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.400 had been gain raped by four young women who had 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.400 absolutely nothing in their history that would indicate that they 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.440 had any kind of propensity like that, no criminal history whatsoever. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.560 The accusations were totally absurd. They were preposterous, and had 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.800 they been made against members of what might have been 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:49.120 considered back then more mainstream society, for junior leaguers, for example, 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.040 the police would have considered it ridiculous and never have 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.679 even pursued the investigation in the first place. I don't 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.360 think they wouldn't have felt like they had the moral 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.880 authority or the courage to pursue the investigation. 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.439 And then you had the issue with the doctor. 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.880 The science backed it up. At trial, pediatrician doctor Nancy 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.360 Kellogg testified that internal scars were caused by physical trauma. 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:13.560 It was critical testimony. 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.160 And this was a respected doctor at the time, doctor Kellogg. Right. 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.000 And we see in wrawful conviction cases. We've seen, I 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.920 mean so many different factors and even when it comes 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:23.880 to junk science. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.240 Former Bear County District Attorney Susan Reed later admitted the 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.280 medical science presented at trial was wrong. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:35.120 It was believed at that time that that was evidence 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.640 of scarring from a tear and that it would have 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.520 been indicative of a sexual assault. There has been further 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:46.960 studying which has led to information that it can occur naturally. 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.320 We have well intentioned doctors who make mistakes. Then we 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.120 have doctors who willfully lie, right, And that's a common thing. 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.920 And you know I talk about often on the show. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:57.360 I mean, every one of you here and everyone listening 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.280 out there is a potential jury. Everyone's going to get 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.160 called for jury. Dude, at some point. Maybe you don't 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.600 like it, but you're going to be. And nobody loves 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.080 getting that notice in the mail. But the fact is, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.600 when you get called to trial and to be on 0:12:08.640 --> 0:12:12.760 a jury, it's important that you hear these stories because 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.520 of the fact that you're going to be presented with 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.400 testimony from people who look like they're practically wearing lab 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.400 coats in there. There're gonna be people you're going to say, Wow, 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.520 they're credited from this university. They must be telling the truth. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.800 But that's not always the case, mate, That's exactly right. 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.640 I mean, sometimes they're practically wearing lab coats and sometimes 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.199 they're wearing police uniforms, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.840 telling the truth. In this case, this doctor, I believe, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:43.000 in all good faith, testified to what she believed were 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.560 physical findings of sexual abuse, scientific physical findings of sexual 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.880 abuse stemming from her examination of the children. And it 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.840 was common back then, what she thought she saw whatever, 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.080 for doctors to get on the stand and testify that 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:02.319 these are indicators, physical indicators of sexual abuse. But what 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.679 we know now, and basically there was sort of this 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.959 watershed study in two thousand and seven, I guess, approximately 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.400 nine years after these trials that show that what was 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.600 commonly thought by doctors back then as indicators of sexual abuse, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.240 we're actually it's just old wives tales, just urban myths 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.720 that in fact, when they in two thousand and seven, 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.840 when they examined I don't know how many, many, many 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.080 many young girls in which there was no suspicion of 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.199 sexual abuse, that these young girls had the same physical 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.840 characteristics that had previously been thought to be indicators of 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.200 sexual abuse, and actually they're not. They're perfectly normal. They 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:44.960 occur naturally. So up until that point, doctors, et cetera, 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.199 you know, in other indisha of being experts, were testifying 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.520 based not on science but on urban myths and old 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.800 wives tales. And it's very effective for the prosecutors. I mean, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.520 in this case, for example, the testimony was all over 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.080 the map. The testimony was not inherently believable. But for 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.880 the prosecutor to get up there and say, well, we've 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:10.360 had scientific physical evidence that somebody sexually abused these children, 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:12.960 then that was very powerful in this cause. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.720 You know what's ironic about this, the only actual sexual 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.920 abuse took place during the examinations. Like, as a father 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.800 of a daughter, I can't imagine my daughter at that 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:26.000 age being subjected to having to be probed in this way. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.840 It's disgusting, right, And so those girls now have to 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.360 live with that trauma as well. And it's interesting too 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.400 because you talk about how these things are old lives tales. 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:35.080 And you know what else we've learned is that arson 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.880 science is just complete nonsense too. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:38.080 Right. 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.080 For years, I mean, it takes you could take a guy, 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.040 I could ask the audience, but I'll just tell you, right, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.000 it takes forty hours at a correspondence course to become 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.480 a licensed arson investigator, right, forty hours, So, I mean, 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.120 and I don't even know what those questions look like. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.000 But so for years you had arson experts getting up 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.760 and testifying as to this guy committed arson or that guy. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.280 And we had, of course the most notorious take cases 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.880 here in Texas with Cameron Todd Willingham who was executed 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.040 for an arson fire that killed his three kids. And 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:10.920 we now, and we knew then, I mean, the evidence 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:15.240 was widely available and was available to the authorities at 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:16.720 that time that it was not an arsen fire, was 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.360 an electrical fire. But these you know, generations of firemen 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.120 had just passed along this information that had nothing to 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.800 do with science. And of course that's you know, one 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.600 of the most tragic cases imaginable where three kids died 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:42.640 and then the father was executed after having lost his kids. 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.920 So Liz few were sort of the feud as the 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.520 ring leader, right, And they really threw the book at you. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:53.800 I mean, Liz, who really doesn't look like a dangerous 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.440 criminal to me. I don't want to judge a book 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:57.480 by its cover. Maybe she robs banks on the weekends. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:01.120 But you were sentenced that thirty seven and a half 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:04.960 years in prison. I can't even thirty seven and a 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.040 half years. What was like the moment when you got convicted. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:10.960 Nobody can imagine that it hasn't been through it. But 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:12.400 could you put that into words? 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.680 Well, I don't really think there's kind of any words 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.360 to kind of express the way I felt. I just 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.840 I couldn't believe that they convicted me of a crime 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.560 that never happened. And I believed in the truth, and 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.520 I was like, how can they convict me of something 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.920 that never happened, you know, and I believe. After they 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.520 had sentenced me, I walked to the back and I fainted. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:33.720 It was just unbelievable. I was like, my god, how 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:38.320 did this happen? How did something by a statement made 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.560 by a child just convict me? 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:41.240 Just like that? 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.240 And my whole life was taken away from me. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.000 Does any of the others want to weigh in on that. 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.440 I mean, that's something that it's really the stuff of nightmares, right. 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:52.480 I'm sure some of you have probably had a nightmare 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.640 where you were caught doing some crime or I mean, 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.040 I've had those those weird dreams where I'm like, you know, 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.120 in one of those TV shows like Locked Up Abroad 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.200 or something like that, I've got so I pick up 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.240 the wrong suitcase. It it's like a Hitchcock movie and 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.959 the next thing, you know, So it really is a 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.159 real life nightmare. Fainting would probably be the only logical 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.040 response that the body could have to something like that, right, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.920 because it's all so surreal nothing happened. And I hear 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.000 this again and again in interviewing exunreis, both on the 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.680 podcast and just in my work at the Instance Project, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.720 where they just keep thinking that justice is going to 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.080 be done because this is America. We don't lock people 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.560 up for things that they didn't do. Now, if you 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.240 listen to some of the authorities, that's what they'll tell you. Oh, yeah, 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.600 we don't arrest people who aren't guilty. Yeah, and so 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:41.520 it's very important for us to counterbalance that and to expose, 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.919 to talk about these stories so that people understand that 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:47.239 we do We do it with an unbelievable frequency. And 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.600 in fact, the best social sciences estimate that there's up 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:52.920 to eight percent of people in prison in America right 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.120 now are innocent. And if you take that number, it's 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.600 pretty scary because eight percent of two point two million 0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.560 is a big number. Anybody do the math. Yeah, it's 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.280 a big numb It's like two hundred thousand. So yeah, 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:03.680 do you want to do you want to talk about that? 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:08.399 So, Christy, myself and Cassie were advised by attorneys not 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.520 to be in court while Liz was on trial because 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.280 we had several trials. So my mom went down in 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.480 place of us and to show support for Liz. 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:17.879 And her family. 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.040 But when I got the call that she was actually 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.760 convicted and it didn't take very long to convict her, 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.600 it was devastating. And I remember getting the call at 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.840 work and I immediately had to leave work. 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.239 I just I just couldn't believe it. So you were 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:38.280 out on bail, yeah, yeah, And then you must have thought, 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:39.960 oh my god, if they could do that to her, 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.159 they could do it to watch too. Oh absolutely. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:47.840 I mean, you know, the frightened a panic. But at 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.360 the same time, when they did come to us with 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:54.359 a plea offer, which was ten years deferred adjudication, and 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.600 that was to basically plead guilty and then you would serve, 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:00.960 you know, not even a day in Prinz. There's other 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.000 things related to that, but they didn't, of course tell 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:05.800 us that. But we, you know, we stood our ground 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.399 and we believed wholeheartedly that we knew that none of 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.320 us are capable of such a crime. It wasn't something 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.199 where I thought Christy might have been capable of it. 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:20.600 I mean, there was just absolutely nothing to indicate anything 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.880 could have ever happened. I mean, it just was impossible. 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.760 And I believe that that's why we have stuck so 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.080 hard to our innocence. And you're absolutely right, and I'm 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.359 sure you know, Jason Baldwin can attest to this. You 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.800 do believe in the judicial system, and you do believe 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:40.280 that somehow, some way that it is going to come out, 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.439 the truth will come out, it will finally prevail, And 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.280 it finally did. It's just it took a long time 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:47.000 to prevail. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.760 Well, this was at a time in America too, when 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.760 there had been a rash of rawful convictions related to 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.920 these daycare centers and day schools and stuff like that, 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.919 where there was this hysteria that would start, sometimes with 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:04.960 something relatively benign, like a parent complaining about something and 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:06.520 a teacher not acting the way they wanted to do, 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.320 and then they just invent these stories and the next 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.320 thing you know, you had whole schools, all these teachers 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:16.520 being locked up for these crazy accusations of things that 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.920 never happened, right, because it's not a common thing, right, 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.720 And the fact is, you have to really stir things 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.159 up to get people to believe that normal people with 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.280 no records, who seem to be just going along with 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:34.320 their lives, going to school, whatever, are these sexually deviant criminals. 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.480 And it's it's really it's a horrendous crime that you 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.359 were accused of, right, I mean, abusing a child is 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.200 at the bottom of the scale in terms of what 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.480 you could could actually be accused of. You stood your ground, 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.119 and you know, you refused this deal, which is a 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.000 very principled but a very dangerous stand, especially when you 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.000