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Speaker 1: My interview with the San Antonio four was one of

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Speaker 1: the first ones that I recorded in front of a

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Speaker 1: live audience, and we did it at south By Southwest

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Speaker 1: and the episode originally aired on April seventeenth of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: The good news is these four extraordinary women who went

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Speaker 1: through this impossible ordeal, frame job and persecution and false conviction.

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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, they finally had their criminal records expunged

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Speaker 1: fully expunged. Cassandra Rivera started working in a law office

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen. Elizabeth Ramirez married a woman named Angel

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Speaker 1: who she met in prison in February of twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: Anna Vasquez get Ready for this started serving as the

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Speaker 1: director of outreach for the Innoctance Project in Texas in

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Speaker 1: March twenty sixteen, and in June twenty nineteen, she was

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Speaker 1: appointed as a representative of the Houston Forensic Science Center,

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Speaker 1: where she will help to oversee Houston forensic scientists, providing

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Speaker 1: a valuable perspective on the consequences of flawed evidence analysis

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Speaker 1: and confirmation bias and Chris D. Mayhew is now studying

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Speaker 1: at the Vettech Institute of Houston, pursuing her dream of

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Speaker 1: becoming a veterinarian that was put on hold for over

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Speaker 1: fifteen years because of a crime she didn't commit. With

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Speaker 1: the police banging on the door, open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man. A year later,

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Speaker 2: I ended up writing in the system.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 3: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 3: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 4: Somebody was able to look at my picture in a

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Speaker 4: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 5: They had been told that two prison officers would have

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Speaker 5: to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 1: Now walk back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 1: all help, broke loops. Man, this is wrongful conviction. Wow,

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Speaker 1: how's everybody doing out there? South By Southwest? Let's go.

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Speaker 1: So I'm really happy to be here. I've been coming

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Speaker 1: to south By Southwest for many years, but in the

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Speaker 1: past I always came down in my other job, my

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Speaker 1: other life as a record executive and checking out bands,

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Speaker 1: which I'll be doing while i'm here, but this time

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Speaker 1: I'm here as the host of Wrongful Conviction, which is

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Speaker 1: a podcast that I started after having worked with the

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project for over twenty years. I'm a founding board

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Speaker 1: member of the Innocence Project, and it's been my calling

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Speaker 1: in life to help exonerate people who are factually actually

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Speaker 1: innocent from prison, and to help them after they have

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Speaker 1: been exonerated, to reintegrate back into society, which is of

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Speaker 1: course a whole nother malla wax because it's getting out.

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Speaker 1: You know, people see in the newspapers, the celebration on

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Speaker 1: the courthouse steps with the family and the lawyers and

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Speaker 1: the balloons and the press. But then, as these women

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Speaker 1: can attest, it's a tough road even after that. So

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Speaker 1: it was a logical extension for me to start this podcast.

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Speaker 1: And today I'm particularly excited because the first time I'm

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Speaker 1: doing it in front of a live audience, which is you,

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Speaker 1: So thanks for being here. We're here today to talk

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Speaker 1: about and to talk with Annabasquez, Cassandra Riviera, Elizabeth Mariirez,

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Speaker 1: and Christy Mayhew, who are the San Antonio four, as

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Speaker 1: well as their attorney, Mike Ware.

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Speaker 6: In nineteen ninety seven, despite believing their innocence would prevail,

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Speaker 6: the four were quickly found guilty.

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Speaker 1: They were convicted twenty years ago of sexually assaulting two

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Speaker 1: little girls.

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Speaker 6: The San Antonio four still can't quite comprehend what happened.

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Speaker 6: The little girls claimed they were raped during a drug

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Speaker 6: fueled satanical rage with a gun pointed at their head.

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Speaker 7: But then one of the alleged victims recanted her story,

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Speaker 7: same for the forensic testimony. Those and other factors convinced

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Speaker 7: the court to exonerate these women.

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Speaker 6: Their attorney, Mike Ware, says this was a classic miscarriage

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Speaker 6: of justice brought about by a panic over the women's

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Speaker 6: lifestyle and a rush to judgment.

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Speaker 1: So welcome to all of you, and thanks for being here.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who are not familiar, this case

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Speaker 1: was a case in which two little girls claimed to

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Speaker 1: have been sexually assaulted in a very strange and fantastical

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Speaker 1: scenario that made no sense to anybody who was actually

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Speaker 1: paying attention. But the two actually most common causes of

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Speaker 1: wrongful convictions were both prevalent factors in this case. One

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Speaker 1: is I woulds misidentification. In this case, it's particularly as

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Speaker 1: I was victim wrongful identification and there was a crime

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Speaker 1: that never even happened. The second most common cause is

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Speaker 1: junk science, and that may seem counterintuitive, but in this case,

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Speaker 1: there was a doctor who testified as to the sexual

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Speaker 1: assault that had taken place, but in fact it had

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Speaker 1: never taken place, falls squarely in the area of junk science.

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Speaker 1: And then there was a third factor, which was inherent

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Speaker 1: bias and prejudice because each of these women had recently

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Speaker 1: come out as being gay, which in the nineties in

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Speaker 1: San Antonio wasn't an acceptable thing to be right. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it was still illegal in Texas back then, which is insane.

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Speaker 1: But that's beside the point I want to get into

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Speaker 1: the story. Let's go back and let's start with you

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Speaker 1: this situation. It must have been just a surreal thing

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Speaker 1: to be caught up in. What was your life like

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Speaker 1: prior to getting caught up in this crazy criminal justice nightmare?

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Speaker 4: You know, recently graduated from high school. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: was an athlete during those years. I had started school

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Speaker 4: college education, and you know, I was looking forward to

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Speaker 4: the future and becoming a registered nurse. That was my

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Speaker 4: go back then, and you know, lots of friends. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I was having the time of my life. Actually, you know,

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Speaker 4: you had your whole life ahead of you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, of course. And then the next thing

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Speaker 1: you know, you're being branded in the press and everywhere

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Speaker 1: else as this sort of monster. Right, And there was

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Speaker 1: a satanic panic in the nineties as well that sort

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Speaker 1: of got caught up in this thing too. And you

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Speaker 1: were accused. Well you were accused because there was a

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Speaker 1: whole setup. But we'll get to that, right, There was

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Speaker 1: a reason why these girls invented this story. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to move to Cassandra and talk to you

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this as well. Take us back

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Speaker 1: to the time when this all went so horribly wrong. God,

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 5: It was a very dark time for us. It was

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Speaker 5: back in nineteen ninety four. We were, like Anna said,

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Speaker 5: we're living our lives. We're enjoying ourselves. And we were

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Speaker 5: just hanging out with friends, just living normal lives. We

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Speaker 5: had just come out. I had just come out. Me

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Speaker 5: and Anna were in a relationship with each other. I

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Speaker 5: was raising my two small children, and all of a

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Speaker 5: sudden we were hit with these false allegations and it

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Speaker 5: was the biggest nightmare that you can even think of,

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Speaker 5: to just wake up one day and being told that

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Speaker 5: you're accused of lesting children.

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Speaker 1: And Elizabeth, it was your nieces, right, who are nine

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Speaker 1: and seven at the time, And it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: that our father put them up to this because of

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Speaker 1: an unrequited situation that he had, and it's crazy how

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Speaker 1: people could behave in these circumstances, and what he did

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Speaker 1: is in a certain way. Not only were you all

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Speaker 1: victims of this, but so were the little girls right right,

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Speaker 1: because they were forced under threat of violence, these young,

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Speaker 1: impressionable little girls who were basically playing with Barbie dolls,

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Speaker 1: and that led to these the line from how they

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Speaker 1: were playing with Barbie dolls too, you must have been

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted if you're taking the clothes off and putting

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Speaker 1: them on the barbie dolls, right, I mean, yeah, who

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Speaker 1: wouldn't think that is such a crazy thing. But for you,

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Speaker 1: it's even more personal because of the fact that you

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Speaker 1: were really at the center of all this because it

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Speaker 1: was your nieces and it was this non relationship with

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Speaker 1: a guy who actually had been married to your.

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Speaker 8: Sister, right, right, that's correct. They would come over and

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Speaker 8: we would visit and they would stay over. So it

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Speaker 8: was just a natural family thing that we did. And

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Speaker 8: all of a sudden there come these charges and being

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Speaker 8: accused of this crime and then including our friends and

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Speaker 8: it also and.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, you know, we'll get to that. But the older

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Speaker 1: of the two girls recanted her testimony many many years later, right,

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Speaker 1: a younger one yet, Yes, And Christy, you were Liz's

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Speaker 1: roommate at the time, right, yes, Well, let's go back again,

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Speaker 1: Like what was your life like at the time. You

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Speaker 1: were not some serial sexual offender who was out praying

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Speaker 1: on young children either, right, like waiting by the ice

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Speaker 1: cream stand.

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Speaker 3: Actually, like four days after I graduated, I was going

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Speaker 3: to Texas and him. My dream was always to be

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Speaker 3: a Venarian. So actually I had taken a break from

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Speaker 3: school and went back to San Antoniano, was working working

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Speaker 3: at a grocery store. Through there I met Liz and

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Speaker 3: then later on she was pregnant, so I was staying

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Speaker 3: there to help her out. And then that's when the

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Speaker 3: allegations came about, because our nieces came over like for

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Speaker 3: a week to stay. It was like summer vacation during

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Speaker 3: the end of it. Yeah, and then shortly after that

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Speaker 3: we were being accused, and you know, we molest them

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Speaker 3: during that week that they stayed there because you know,

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Speaker 3: Cassieanna would come and hang out. We were all friends,

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Speaker 3: you know, just an ordinary life. We're all just young,

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Speaker 3: enjoying life when trying to get started on a career.

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Speaker 1: Right. And it's interesting too, right, how society loses in

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Speaker 1: this situation too. You were going to be a veterinarian,

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Speaker 1: a nurse, a mother. It's like everybody loses in this situation.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, it's extra tragic because of the

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Speaker 1: fact that it's a crime that never even happened. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like you were the wrong people, there was no crime, right,

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Speaker 1: And then we see that not infrequently, unfortunately, these things

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Speaker 1: just they sort of gained momentum of their own, and

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Speaker 1: somebody's got to be held responsible because nobody wants to

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Speaker 1: admit that they're wrong, even when they know it right.

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Speaker 1: And Mike, let's turn it to you for a second.

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Speaker 1: How much of a factor was the climate at the time,

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Speaker 1: the fact that they were lesbians in this right, because

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Speaker 1: they were little girls, they were lesbians. I'm guessing in

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Speaker 1: San Antonio in the nineties you probably had a hard

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Speaker 1: time finding a jury that wasn't somewhat homophobic.

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Speaker 9: Well, you're exactly right. I wasn't involved in the trials,

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Speaker 9: but in going back and reading the transcripts of the

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Speaker 9: trials that you're exactly right about the jury Vanire and

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Speaker 9: the inherent bias against lesbians that was coming out in

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Speaker 9: the Vordyre process. I think the real role that the

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Speaker 9: fact that they were gay, and it just recently had

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Speaker 9: come out is is that the accusations in this case

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Speaker 9: were inherently preposterous. I mean, two little girls said they

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Speaker 9: had been gain raped by four young women who had

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Speaker 9: absolutely nothing in their history that would indicate that they

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Speaker 9: had any kind of propensity like that, no criminal history whatsoever.

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Speaker 9: The accusations were totally absurd. They were preposterous, and had

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Speaker 9: they been made against members of what might have been

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Speaker 9: considered back then more mainstream society, for junior leaguers, for example,

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Speaker 9: the police would have considered it ridiculous and never have

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Speaker 9: even pursued the investigation in the first place. I don't

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Speaker 9: think they wouldn't have felt like they had the moral

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Speaker 9: authority or the courage to pursue the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And then you had the issue with the doctor.

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Speaker 6: The science backed it up. At trial, pediatrician doctor Nancy

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Speaker 6: Kellogg testified that internal scars were caused by physical trauma.

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Speaker 6: It was critical testimony.

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Speaker 1: And this was a respected doctor at the time, doctor Kellogg. Right.

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Speaker 1: And we see in wrawful conviction cases. We've seen, I

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Speaker 1: mean so many different factors and even when it comes

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Speaker 1: to junk science.

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Speaker 6: Former Bear County District Attorney Susan Reed later admitted the

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Speaker 6: medical science presented at trial was wrong.

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Speaker 7: It was believed at that time that that was evidence

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Speaker 7: of scarring from a tear and that it would have

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Speaker 7: been indicative of a sexual assault. There has been further

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Speaker 7: studying which has led to information that it can occur naturally.

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Speaker 1: We have well intentioned doctors who make mistakes. Then we

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Speaker 1: have doctors who willfully lie, right, And that's a common thing.

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Speaker 1: And you know I talk about often on the show.

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Speaker 1: I mean, every one of you here and everyone listening

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Speaker 1: out there is a potential jury. Everyone's going to get

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Speaker 1: called for jury. Dude, at some point. Maybe you don't

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Speaker 1: like it, but you're going to be. And nobody loves

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Speaker 1: getting that notice in the mail. But the fact is,

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Speaker 1: when you get called to trial and to be on

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Speaker 1: a jury, it's important that you hear these stories because

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Speaker 1: of the fact that you're going to be presented with

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Speaker 1: testimony from people who look like they're practically wearing lab

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Speaker 1: coats in there. There're gonna be people you're going to say, Wow,

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Speaker 1: they're credited from this university. They must be telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: But that's not always the case, mate, That's exactly right.

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Speaker 9: I mean, sometimes they're practically wearing lab coats and sometimes

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Speaker 9: they're wearing police uniforms, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily

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Speaker 9: telling the truth. In this case, this doctor, I believe,

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Speaker 9: in all good faith, testified to what she believed were

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Speaker 9: physical findings of sexual abuse, scientific physical findings of sexual

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Speaker 9: abuse stemming from her examination of the children. And it

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Speaker 9: was common back then, what she thought she saw whatever,

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Speaker 9: for doctors to get on the stand and testify that

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Speaker 9: these are indicators, physical indicators of sexual abuse. But what

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Speaker 9: we know now, and basically there was sort of this

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Speaker 9: watershed study in two thousand and seven, I guess, approximately

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Speaker 9: nine years after these trials that show that what was

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Speaker 9: commonly thought by doctors back then as indicators of sexual abuse,

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Speaker 9: we're actually it's just old wives tales, just urban myths

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Speaker 9: that in fact, when they in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 9: when they examined I don't know how many, many, many

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Speaker 9: many young girls in which there was no suspicion of

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Speaker 9: sexual abuse, that these young girls had the same physical

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Speaker 9: characteristics that had previously been thought to be indicators of

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Speaker 9: sexual abuse, and actually they're not. They're perfectly normal. They

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Speaker 9: occur naturally. So up until that point, doctors, et cetera,

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Speaker 9: you know, in other indisha of being experts, were testifying

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Speaker 9: based not on science but on urban myths and old

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Speaker 9: wives tales. And it's very effective for the prosecutors. I mean,

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Speaker 9: in this case, for example, the testimony was all over

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Speaker 9: the map. The testimony was not inherently believable. But for

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Speaker 9: the prosecutor to get up there and say, well, we've

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Speaker 9: had scientific physical evidence that somebody sexually abused these children,

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Speaker 9: then that was very powerful in this cause.

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Speaker 1: You know what's ironic about this, the only actual sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse took place during the examinations. Like, as a father

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Speaker 1: of a daughter, I can't imagine my daughter at that

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Speaker 1: age being subjected to having to be probed in this way.

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Speaker 1: It's disgusting, right, And so those girls now have to

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Speaker 1: live with that trauma as well. And it's interesting too

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Speaker 1: because you talk about how these things are old lives tales.

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Speaker 1: And you know what else we've learned is that arson

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Speaker 1: science is just complete nonsense too.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 1: For years, I mean, it takes you could take a guy,

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Speaker 1: I could ask the audience, but I'll just tell you, right,

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Speaker 1: it takes forty hours at a correspondence course to become

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Speaker 1: a licensed arson investigator, right, forty hours, So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and I don't even know what those questions look like.

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Speaker 1: But so for years you had arson experts getting up

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Speaker 1: and testifying as to this guy committed arson or that guy.

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Speaker 1: And we had, of course the most notorious take cases

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Speaker 1: here in Texas with Cameron Todd Willingham who was executed

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Speaker 1: for an arson fire that killed his three kids. And

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Speaker 1: we now, and we knew then, I mean, the evidence

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Speaker 1: was widely available and was available to the authorities at

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Speaker 1: that time that it was not an arsen fire, was

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Speaker 1: an electrical fire. But these you know, generations of firemen

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Speaker 1: had just passed along this information that had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with science. And of course that's you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the most tragic cases imaginable where three kids died

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Speaker 1: and then the father was executed after having lost his kids.

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Speaker 1: So Liz few were sort of the feud as the

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Speaker 1: ring leader, right, And they really threw the book at you.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Liz, who really doesn't look like a dangerous

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Speaker 1: criminal to me. I don't want to judge a book

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Speaker 1: by its cover. Maybe she robs banks on the weekends.

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Speaker 1: But you were sentenced that thirty seven and a half

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Speaker 1: years in prison. I can't even thirty seven and a

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Speaker 1: half years. What was like the moment when you got convicted.

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Speaker 1: Nobody can imagine that it hasn't been through it. But

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Speaker 1: could you put that into words?

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Speaker 8: Well, I don't really think there's kind of any words

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Speaker 8: to kind of express the way I felt. I just

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Speaker 8: I couldn't believe that they convicted me of a crime

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Speaker 8: that never happened. And I believed in the truth, and

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Speaker 8: I was like, how can they convict me of something

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Speaker 8: that never happened, you know, and I believe. After they

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Speaker 8: had sentenced me, I walked to the back and I fainted.

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Speaker 8: It was just unbelievable. I was like, my god, how

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Speaker 8: did this happen? How did something by a statement made

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Speaker 8: by a child just convict me?

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Speaker 3: Just like that?

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Speaker 8: And my whole life was taken away from me.

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Speaker 1: Does any of the others want to weigh in on that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that it's really the stuff of nightmares, right.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure some of you have probably had a nightmare

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Speaker 1: where you were caught doing some crime or I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've had those those weird dreams where I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 1: in one of those TV shows like Locked Up Abroad

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Speaker 1: or something like that, I've got so I pick up

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Speaker 1: the wrong suitcase. It it's like a Hitchcock movie and

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Speaker 1: the next thing, you know, So it really is a

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Speaker 1: real life nightmare. Fainting would probably be the only logical

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Speaker 1: response that the body could have to something like that, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's all so surreal nothing happened. And I hear

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Speaker 1: this again and again in interviewing exunreis, both on the

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Speaker 1: podcast and just in my work at the Instance Project,

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Speaker 1: where they just keep thinking that justice is going to

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Speaker 1: be done because this is America. We don't lock people

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Speaker 1: up for things that they didn't do. Now, if you

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Speaker 1: listen to some of the authorities, that's what they'll tell you. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we don't arrest people who aren't guilty. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: it's very important for us to counterbalance that and to expose,

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Speaker 1: to talk about these stories so that people understand that

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Speaker 1: we do We do it with an unbelievable frequency. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, the best social sciences estimate that there's up

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Speaker 1: to eight percent of people in prison in America right

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Speaker 1: now are innocent. And if you take that number, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty scary because eight percent of two point two million

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Speaker 1: is a big number. Anybody do the math. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a big numb It's like two hundred thousand. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: do you want to do you want to talk about that?

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Speaker 4: So, Christy, myself and Cassie were advised by attorneys not

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Speaker 4: to be in court while Liz was on trial because

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Speaker 4: we had several trials. So my mom went down in

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Speaker 4: place of us and to show support for Liz.

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Speaker 9: And her family.

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Speaker 4: But when I got the call that she was actually

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Speaker 4: convicted and it didn't take very long to convict her,

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Speaker 4: it was devastating. And I remember getting the call at

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Speaker 4: work and I immediately had to leave work.

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Speaker 1: I just I just couldn't believe it. So you were

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Speaker 1: out on bail, yeah, yeah, And then you must have thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, if they could do that to her,

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Speaker 1: they could do it to watch too. Oh absolutely.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the frightened a panic. But at

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Speaker 4: the same time, when they did come to us with

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Speaker 4: a plea offer, which was ten years deferred adjudication, and

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Speaker 4: that was to basically plead guilty and then you would serve,

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Speaker 4: you know, not even a day in Prinz. There's other

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Speaker 4: things related to that, but they didn't, of course tell

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Speaker 4: us that. But we, you know, we stood our ground

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Speaker 4: and we believed wholeheartedly that we knew that none of

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Speaker 4: us are capable of such a crime. It wasn't something

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Speaker 4: where I thought Christy might have been capable of it.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there was just absolutely nothing to indicate anything

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Speaker 4: could have ever happened. I mean, it just was impossible.

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Speaker 4: And I believe that that's why we have stuck so

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Speaker 4: hard to our innocence. And you're absolutely right, and I'm

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Speaker 4: sure you know, Jason Baldwin can attest to this. You

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Speaker 4: do believe in the judicial system, and you do believe

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Speaker 4: that somehow, some way that it is going to come out,

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Speaker 4: the truth will come out, it will finally prevail, And

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Speaker 4: it finally did. It's just it took a long time

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Speaker 4: to prevail.

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Speaker 1: Well, this was at a time in America too, when

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Speaker 1: there had been a rash of rawful convictions related to

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Speaker 1: these daycare centers and day schools and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: where there was this hysteria that would start, sometimes with

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Speaker 1: something relatively benign, like a parent complaining about something and

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Speaker 1: a teacher not acting the way they wanted to do,

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Speaker 1: and then they just invent these stories and the next

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Speaker 1: thing you know, you had whole schools, all these teachers

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Speaker 1: being locked up for these crazy accusations of things that

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Speaker 1: never happened, right, because it's not a common thing, right,

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Speaker 1: And the fact is, you have to really stir things

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Speaker 1: up to get people to believe that normal people with

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Speaker 1: no records, who seem to be just going along with

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Speaker 1: their lives, going to school, whatever, are these sexually deviant criminals.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's really it's a horrendous crime that you

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Speaker 1: were accused of, right, I mean, abusing a child is

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of the scale in terms of what

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Speaker 1: you could could actually be accused of. You stood your ground,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you refused this deal, which is a

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Speaker 1: very principled but a very dangerous stand, especially when you

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Speaker 1: knew that that they're yeah, you do what they were

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Speaker 1: the Cable. You knew that Liz had already been convicted.

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Speaker 4: Well not only that, but the charges alone they carry

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Speaker 4: from fire years to ninety nine years.

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Speaker 1: So we knew what we were faced.

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Speaker 4: But we still, you know, we still stuck to our ground.

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Speaker 1: Would you have, Mike, would you what would you have advised?

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Speaker 3: In that?

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Speaker 1: What can you even say? Right? He doesn't like that question.

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Speaker 9: Now, No, they obviously did the right thing in the

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Speaker 9: long run by refusing to plead guilty to something they

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Speaker 9: were completely innocent in.

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Speaker 1: Right, cons It's turned to you because ultimately, even though

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't have served the day in prison, you would

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Speaker 1: have been branded a sex offender. And what goes? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what does that look like? Because actually after you got out,

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Speaker 1: you were still, until you were fully exonerated, you were

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Speaker 1: living as sex offenders. Is that right?

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Speaker 5: Actually, the three of us did not have to register

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Speaker 5: a sex offenders.

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Speaker 1: Annam was the only one that did have to.

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Speaker 5: But if we would have taken a plea bargain, yes,

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Speaker 5: we would have had to register. And to me that

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Speaker 5: I mean, none of that was going to happen because

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Speaker 5: you know, we never committed the crime. We were not

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Speaker 5: getting into something we did not do. And like Anna said,

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Speaker 5: we continue to fight we had to fire attorneys that

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Speaker 5: did not want to fight for us, we had to

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Speaker 5: retain more attorneys that would fight for us, And that

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Speaker 5: would have damaged me completely because I do have two children.

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Speaker 5: I did at the time, they were ages seven and eight,

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Speaker 5: one on eight and nine, and that would have ruined me.

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Speaker 1: Well, you wouldn't have been able to take them to school,

434
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: you wouldn't been able to go to the playground, you

435
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been able to do really anything. Then it's

436
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: so crazy, right, we have and this is not something

437
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 1: I talked about a lot, but there's a great article

438
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: in the Economists about this. There's almost a million people

439
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: on the sex offender registry in America, which is totally

440
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: fucking insane, right, and probably fifty thousand of them are

441
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: actually dangerous. So what does that mean. That means that

442
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: a we can't keep track of a million people anyway,

443
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 1: So it is counterproductive, Like a lot of government policies, right,

444
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: it's actually counterproductive because what we should be doing is

445
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,719
Speaker 1: trying to monitor the activities of the people who are

446
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: actually dangerous, but instead we have a million people who

447
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: are convicted of things like peeing in public. Right, you

448
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: may not know this but if you, I don't know

449
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 1: about you, but I love to pee, like in my house.

450
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 1: If I'm on the lawn, that's my law. I'm gonna

451
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: pee on the fucking lawn. I'm saving water, right, That's

452
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: how I look at it. I'm trying to always be

453
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: a good environmentalist. But if somebody's riding by on their

454
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: bike and calls up and says, or drives by in

455
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: their car and their kids at the back, and they go,

456
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: I saw this guy peeing on this lawn on your

457
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: own property, you could become a registered sex offender. Oh yeah.

458
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: And then I mean there's so many that the list

459
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: of things that can get you on that list, it's

460
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: so long, and it's permanent, there's nothing you can do

461
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: about it. And then you can't live anywhere either, like

462
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: you can't live within a certain radius of a school,

463
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 1: which like in certain cities there is nowhere that you

464
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: can live except like under a bridge. And we see

465
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: that there are communities of people that are sprung up

466
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: or registered sex offenders who live under an overpass because

467
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: there's no housing that doesn't put them in violation of

468
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: the law by being in too close to approximity to

469
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 1: a school or a playground or a church, or it

470
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: could even be a typing school by the way, that's closed.

471
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. They can call it whatever they want.

472
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, I can understand it's a really bad choice

473
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: to have to make. There's no good news there whatsoever.

474
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: Your career is over. You're gonna have to fill out

475
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: every job application ever you have to fill out. You're

476
00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: gonna be like, yeah, I'm a registered sex offender, but

477
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: I really like to work here. And it's like, uh, yeah,

478
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: I think we got somebody else that might be perfect

479
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: for the job, you know what I mean. I mean,

480
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: you seem nice and everything. So Chris still has turned

481
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: to you heading into this trial, and were you optimistic,

482
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: did you think there was a chance you'd actually win,

483
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: or had you pretty much resign yourself the fact that

484
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: they're just going to fuck us and that's the way it.

485
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 3: Is, to be honest, I still had hope that somehow,

486
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 3: like you said, we believe in the justice system. I

487
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 3: just felt some way that they would somebody would see

488
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 3: the truth that we were telling the truth. Nothing happened,

489
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 3: no crime occurred. We weren't capable of it. I mean,

490
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,239
Speaker 3: we were just basically like four young kids. You know,

491
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: we were just barely becoming adults, which is more capable

492
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: of doing this.

493
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: How long was it from Liz's trial until you're a trial?

494
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 9: What it was a year?

495
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: Almost year? So you had a year of being in

496
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 1: this sort of purgatory right where you're just you're going

497
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: along with your life, but you know there's this incredible

498
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: weight hanging over your head that at any time is

499
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: going to come and destroy everything, and that you're dreaming

500
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: of everything that you stand for. What is that like?

501
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: Were you all in contact with each other? Did you

502
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: have meetings? The relationship must have strained over this now

503
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: you knew you were all going to try together.

504
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: No, I mean I think we've remained friends strong through

505
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 3: this whole thing. You know, I don't think it ever

506
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: separated us.

507
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: Liz was already you were already in prison at this point, right, yes,

508
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: So were you in touch? Were you allowed to be

509
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 1: in touch? At this point?

510
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 4: It was advice by our attorneys again to not write

511
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 4: letters because they would go through their mail. So again

512
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 4: we're kind of separated because of that, because they except

513
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: they would read our mail and see if there's anything

514
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: that we're telling.

515
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know, and Liz, that must have

516
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 1: been extra hard for you because there you are locked up,

517
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: facing thirty seven years in prison, and you're separated from

518
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 1: your friends. I would think that's an even an additional

519
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: strain for you to be facing this terrible situation alone.

520
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

521
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 8: But at the same time, when I had gotten my time,

522
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 8: I was writing. As soon as I was locked up

523
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 8: at the county, I started writing organizations to try to help,

524
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 8: and I knew the crime had never happened, and I

525
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 8: was trying to reach out to people at that time already.

526
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: What is it that gets you through? I'm always fascinated

527
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: by this because I think a lot of people I

528
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,479
Speaker 1: have a morbid fear of being locked up and everything

529
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: about it. Anybody else shared that fear. Yeah, we have

530
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: a few hands up you HOI an the other ones

531
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: just look scared, so they're too scared to raise their

532
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: hands anyway. So what is it that got you through?

533
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: We see different people that have been in this situation

534
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: who some of them find faith in prison, some of

535
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: them lose faith in prison, some of them find this

536
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: sort of inner gear that is almost incomprehensible to me.

537
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: But what was it for each of you, what was

538
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: it that got you through this nightmare of being in

539
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 1: prison for almost half your life at that point.

540
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: So the three words that come to my mind automatically

541
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 4: are faith, hope, and love. My faith was obviously my

542
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: religious beliefs. God was there with me throughout it all.

543
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 4: You know, I had support from family, work from friends,

544
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 4: but nobody's actually in the prison with you.

545
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: During this time.

546
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 4: It's very difficult, especially to be innocent of a horrendous

547
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 4: crime like so, and then you're having to deal with

548
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 4: the prison world and it's really tough. I mean, there's

549
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 4: just so much that it all entails. But so my

550
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 4: faith in God is what carried me through. And I'm

551
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 4: going to say my hope was that some days, somehow,

552
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 4: some way, our innocence would be proven. And here it

553
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: has now, of course twenty two years later, but it

554
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 4: did work. And then the love, the love from my

555
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 4: family that continued throughout this whole process, the love of

556
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 4: my friends, the love of our supporters now, and honestly

557
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 4: the love of Mike Whare, the Innocence Project of Texas

558
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 4: and the filmmakers which is dev Escuonazi and Sam Tabbitt,

559
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 4: And I feel like all of those That whole combination

560
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 4: is what helped you our release arconeration.

561
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: I would give you a hugs up for the chair

562
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: would fall over. So that was that was incredible. Let's

563
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: go right down the line. Even I don't think I

564
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: can top that. No, I don't think anything. It's okay

565
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: that the.

566
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 3: West.

567
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Anna pretty much hit everything.

568
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 5: Basically when I went in, I went through many different emotions.

569
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 5: You don't know how to feel. You know, you've just

570
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 5: been wronged by a system that you were supposed to

571
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: believe in. You know, you told the truth and you

572
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 5: were taken down anyway, You're taken from your family, from

573
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 5: your loved ones, from everybody around you that means something

574
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 5: to you, and you're put into a world almost like

575
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 5: a cage.

576
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: It is a cage.

577
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 5: You're having to fight for yourself from the inside, not

578
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 5: knowing if anybody is going to listen to you. Because

579
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 5: as Liz said, we wrote letters, we reached out from

580
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 5: the Innocence Project, the ASIL, you lambda, there's so many

581
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 5: different other ones that always gave us a negative response.

582
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 5: So being that we kept receiving these letdowns, you have

583
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 5: to pick yourself up. I started taking college courses like

584
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 5: Anna said, we had love from friends and family. My

585
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 5: mom came to see me faithfully. She always brought my kids.

586
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 5: Miss Blaska's Anna's mom came to see us faithfully. You know,

587
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 5: when you have a love support, a love line, that

588
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 5: is what keeps you going. And I truly believe that.

589
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 5: As Anna said, you know your faith in God because

590
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 5: you have to believe in something. And obviously he came

591
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 5: through with us because he did bring us. Michael where,

592
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 5: darryl Otto, the people that helped us, Debbie s Canauzi,

593
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 5: Sam Tibitt, everybody that started fighting for us, and here

594
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 5: we are today exonerated.

595
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: Well that's that's that's a pretty good reference when you

596
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: get a reference from God, you know what I mean?

597
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 3: All right?

598
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: I think being in contact with someone on the inside

599
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: is so important, right and I hear that over and

600
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: over again, and writing to and there are various places

601
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: you can go to write letters to people who are

602
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: duck and so alone on the inside. And it's also

603
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: important to note that the LGBT community is vastly overrepresented

604
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. And it's partially I think

605
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: and Mike imagine a degree, but it's partially because of

606
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: these inherent biases that you fell victim to. It's approximately double.

607
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: In terms of the number of adults who identify themselves

608
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: as LGBT and the number of people who are incarcerated

609
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: in the system, it's off by two hundred percent, and

610
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: that's something as a country we really have to take

611
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: a hard look. I mean, everyone knows that minorities are overrepresented,

612
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: and overrepresented is the wrong way of putting it, because

613
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: that sounds like a good thing, but they are discriminated against.

614
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: They're locked up at terribly alarming numbers. Percentage wise. Think

615
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: that by now fifty years after the Civil rights movement,

616
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: we would be past that, but we still have a

617
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: long long way to go. So Liz, let's turn to you.

618
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: You are facing this alone well through the first year anyway.

619
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: How did you get through it?

620
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 3: Well?

621
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 8: I think both the girls have kind of touched base

622
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 8: on everything, But I believe my faith in God is

623
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 8: what really carried me through, and the fact that I

624
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 8: had three friends that were incarcerated and I needed to

625
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 8: stay strong and prove that we were innocent and the

626
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 8: crap had never happened. And to me, I think that

627
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 8: was what gave me the strength to continue fighting. Because

628
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 8: I didn't. I wanted someone to hear us and know that, hey,

629
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 8: nothing ever happened. And I think that is what kept

630
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 8: me going all those years that I was incarcerated, and

631
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 8: kept me writing and writing even after every leaddown. You know,

632
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 8: I had a child out there, Kathy had children, and

633
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 8: I had a mom. We all had family out there,

634
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 8: and it wasn't fair that our life was taken away

635
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 8: for nothing that ever happened. And I felt like that

636
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 8: was my only avenue to be able to help in

637
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 8: some sort was to write, because that's all we happened there.

638
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: It was just paper and stamps in school. I think, yeah,

639
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: which helps so many people too. And it's and it's

640
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: crazy because I see this how the government, you know,

641
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: and we went through this recently in New York State

642
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: with this is big out quite Why are we educating prisoners.

643
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: We shouldn't be spending money. And the fact is it's

644
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: critically important, not only for the people on the inside

645
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: who are innocent, but also for other people. And I'm

646
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: always amazed how politicians forget the fact that ninety nine

647
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: or whatever it is percent of people or ninety five percent,

648
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact number. Of people who are

649
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: cars right, are going to come out one day, the

650
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: and the you know, if they get an education at

651
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: prison and they get that hope and they get that

652
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, second sort of second chance, they have such

653
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: a vastly improved chance of being successful on the outside,

654
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: which then of course benefits everyone in society, even people

655
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: who think that prisoners are all bad or whatever. They

656
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: may end up living next door to whoever it is

657
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: it gets out, and you're much better off having somebody

658
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: there who's got a chance and wants to, you know,

659
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: has the ability to turn their life around. So let's

660
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: turn to you, Christy. Was there a key for you?

661
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: Was there something that you clung to while you were

662
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: in this nightmare?

663
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 3: I would say it was my faith. Just my faith

664
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 3: in God is what kept me strong, kept me going.

665
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 3: And I mean I did positive stuff. I would try

666
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: to education, you know, while I was in there, to

667
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: keep me on a good level, you know, and not

668
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: get caught up in the system. That was the one

669
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: thing for me was that I felt like, Okay, the

670
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 3: system took everything away from it, but I refused for

671
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: them to take away me. So I conducted myself. It's

672
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: still the same I was doing education out here, so

673
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: I did education in there, you know, And I just

674
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: stay positive, and I just I refuse to let the

675
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: system take me, you know, myself. So I just stayed strong.

676
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: You've got some difficult job, right. You're out there fighting

677
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: against a system that doesn't want to see you, doesn't

678
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: want to know about you. They like their convictions just

679
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: the way they are. And we're in Texas too, right

680
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: where they really like their convictions.

681
00:33:58,600 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: Right.

682
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: So you are up against everyday impossible odds. They've got

683
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: the money and the resources and the thing and the people,

684
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: and you're out there fighting the good fight. How do

685
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: you stay strong? How do you maintain that optimism against

686
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: these overwhelming odds?

687
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 9: Well, number one, the successes that we do have are

688
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 9: so rewarding. That's certainly the main thing that keeps me going.

689
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 9: I mean, you know, these are four wonderful people, and

690
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 9: of course you don't know when this is going on.

691
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 9: This could have all failed. As it turns out, it

692
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 9: was completely successful, and they've all been completely exonerated now

693
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 9: and those sorts of successes and we've had others as

694
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 9: well as really what keeps us strong. So you know

695
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 9: it can happen in spite of the ones that fall

696
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 9: short of the mark. We get one hundred and twenty

697
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 9: letters a month, probably from inmates wanting our help. And

698
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 9: we're a small nonprofit, so it's difficult, but thank goodness,

699
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 9: we have a very competent staff that works for next

700
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 9: to nothing to keep all this going.

701
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,919
Speaker 1: It's noble work and I imagine you sleep pretty well at night.

702
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: Let's put in a plug for the nonprofit. By the way,

703
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: what's the website? How can people get involved? How can

704
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: they donate? Thank you?

705
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 9: We're the Innocence Project of Texas. We have a website.

706
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 9: You can google this and get to the website and

707
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 9: the Facebook page. It will instruct you how you can

708
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 9: donate in certainly, all donations, no matter how big or

709
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 9: small or much.

710
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: Appreciated, and they can and they do, and they will

711
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: lead to more exonerations of more good people like the

712
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: people that we have here on the page. And also

713
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: the work. It's important to recognize that the work. Every

714
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: time somebody gets exonerated or a google people gets exonerated.

715
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: The ripple effect is profound because every time there's a

716
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: story in the newspaper, and the media plays such an

717
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: important role in all of this right, and the movie

718
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: about the Girls, all these movies that have now become

719
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: such an important part of pop culture. Every article. It

720
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: influences people to think differently and to be more aware

721
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 1: and to be better jurors. It comes back to that,

722
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: because everybody's got a responsibility to be informed, to be skeptical,

723
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: to be the best juror that they can be when

724
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: someone's life is literally in your hands. Okay, so let's

725
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: open it up to a couple of questions. You can

726
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: even ask a question to Mike through God if you

727
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: want to. We've already established that, or you or any

728
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: other girls or me or whatever. Let me repeat the

729
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: questions because I don't know if everybody could hear it

730
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: in the air. So the question was, once you were released,

731
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 1: did you find skepticism? Did people accept you as being

732
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: in a center? Did people still just judge you based on,

733
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: you know, whether you had been wrongly convicted of you.

734
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 5: Know, when we first got out two weeks later, I

735
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 5: was already working. I had a job, and with this

736
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 5: job I would see many people because I'll just tell

737
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 5: you I worked at a car wash, I worked for washtub.

738
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 5: I don't know if y'all do you'll have one here

739
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 5: in Austin washtubs. No, okay, Well they're in San Antonio

740
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 5: and everybody goes to get their cars detailed and clean there.

741
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 5: And it was the first job that I could get

742
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 5: because see, I could not apply online because then I

743
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 5: would have to put that I was a registered sex

744
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: I mean I was a registered I was a convicted

745
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 5: sex offender fell in. Okay, whatever, but anyway, it's all terrible,

746
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 5: but anyway, so I would have to put on there

747
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 5: that I had been convicted of this horrible crime. So

748
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 5: basically I wanted to go somewhere where I could actually

749
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 5: speak to somebody face to face, fill out an application

750
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 5: and explain my situation so they wouldn't just judge by

751
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 5: that convicted fell.

752
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: In part of an application.

753
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 5: So when I went and I was hired, it all

754
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 5: wrote really well. And like I said, I met people

755
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 5: constantly because you have to start in the vacuums.

756
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: So my customers would get.

757
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 5: Off their cars and leave them with us so we

758
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 5: could clean them out, in vacuum them and throw out

759
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 5: their trash. Well, this one gentleman looked at me and

760
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 5: he was like, I know you, And I was just

761
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 5: like how Because I didn't know. I mean, this is

762
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 5: my first time being in society since nineteen two thousand.

763
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 5: So when he said that to me, I just looked

764
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 5: at him. I didn't know what to say. And then

765
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 5: finally I said, are you sure?

766
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: And he said, yeah, I think.

767
00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 5: And then he realized he had seen me on the

768
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 5: news and he told me congratulations. And I never ever

769
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 5: received any negative type of treatment, none of us ever have.

770
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 5: Everybody has told us that they're praying for us. Our

771
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 5: case was obviously very highly publicized, you know when we

772
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 5: came out, and we've received nothing but love and support,

773
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 5: and that support has grown tremendously, so you know, it's

774
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 5: a real blessing to have so much on our side

775
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 5: for once.

776
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 10: Another question here, oh microphone, did you want and or

777
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 10: receive any apology from anyone the situation the people?

778
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 3: We did receive an apology from the one that we

779
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: can in She apologized to us.

780
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: System wise, I don't nobody's.

781
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: Ever apologized to us. I mean I don't. I mean,

782
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 3: I don't want an apology. I just wanted the wrong

783
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: to be made right, which we got, which was the exoneration. Yes,

784
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: it was nice for her to the one that recan

785
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 3: and to apologize to us, but none of us really

786
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: blamed her. She was young and it wasn't her fault.

787
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was actually very commendable of her to do

788
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 4: that as well, I mean, especially knowing the backlash that

789
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 4: she faced.

790
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: So another question in the back.

791
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 2: I know you spoke about when you were released you

792
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: were able to find a job. But have any of

793
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: you ever considered or did you ever consider entrepreneurship as

794
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: a method or a way to kind of propel yourself

795
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 2: or reactivate into society or do you know of any

796
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: stories of entrepreneurship and accipenders.

797
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's any of exonreies that are out there doing

798
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 4: very well for themselves.

799
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 1: I will say.

800
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 6: That have we thought about it?

801
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: You know what, this is all pretty new to us.

802
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 4: We were really We got the appeal from the appellate

803
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 4: courts in November of the twenty third of twenty sixteen.

804
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 4: So during that time, you know, we had a report

805
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 4: to the bond So in order to do that, we

806
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 4: had to maintain jobs throughout this whole process. But now

807
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 4: that everything is done and over with, I think that

808
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 4: either some or all of us do have some type

809
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 4: of entrepreneurship in mind.

810
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: Okay, I think we had a couple more hands up here.

811
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: It seems like your life got hijacked when you were

812
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: at a very young age.

813
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 5: How do you think your life might have been different,

814
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 5: or maybe your children's lives if this had never happened.

815
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 4: Where do you think you'd be now?

816
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: I would love to know how my kids would have

817
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: grown up, they would.

818
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: Have had me.

819
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 5: I can't say I would have done better than my

820
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 5: mom did, and I can't say that I would have done.

821
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: Worse, but I would love to know. Do you think

822
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people right now that might

823
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 1: be going to do the same thing?

824
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 5: Oh, yes, ma'am, I do, and that's why the four

825
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 5: of us want to make it our life to help them.

826
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 1: I think we may have time for one more, but

827
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: before we do that, I do want to thank the

828
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: Capital Factory, the audience that's here for being here, iHeart

829
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: and PRX for hosting us on this very special day

830
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: of wrong ful conviction with Jason plom that's me And

831
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: it's a very moving experience hearing from each of you

832
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: and so powerful and I really consider it a privilege

833
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: to be able to share your stories with the audience

834
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: out there. We have time for one more question, and

835
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: we have one more question.

836
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 10: I'm from San Antonio, and I just want you to

837
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 10: know that a lot of people there, I mean, we

838
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 10: saw through the bullshit, like we all were on your side,

839
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 10: and thank you, bless you, And I don't want to

840
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 10: make you cry anymore because I feel like you've cried

841
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 10: so much. I want you to be happy, So I

842
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 10: want to ask you a happy question. What's something when you.

843
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: Got out that just blew your mind.

844
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 10: And you just made you so happy, Like something that

845
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 10: you didn't know existed in the world, or something you

846
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 10: never got to experience.

847
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: I know AOL discs.

848
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 10: Were probably a big thing back then, Like were you

849
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 10: stoked about the iPhone? Like, was there anything that made

850
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 10: you that you just love now that you wish you

851
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 10: would have had back then?

852
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know if I love it. But technology

853
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 5: is crazy. I know, Dan, I can tell you some stories.

854
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 5: When she first came out, she didn't know anything about it,

855
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 5: and she was at a restaurant and everybody was on

856
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 5: their phone, so she just thought they were being rude.

857
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 5: So technology, I'm still learning, I mean, are.

858
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: Before we sign off, I want to put in a

859
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: plug for the film Southwest of Salem, which won some

860
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: awards recently, I think Tribeca and other things, so please

861
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: do check out that film. I want to thank again

862
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: each of you for being here and you might for

863
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: doing what you do every day. And once again it's

864
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: the NIS's Project of Texas. I strongly encourage everybody to

865
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: get involved. If everybody would do a little something, we

866
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: would put a huge dent in this problem. The awareness

867
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: is peaking, support for the death penalties at an all

868
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: time low. We can make a real change and this

869
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: is a big part of it. And your stories are

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Speaker 1: going to really help move the needle on this very

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Speaker 1: important topic and conversation. So again, thank you all for

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Speaker 1: being here. Check out the movie Southwest of Salem, ANESS

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Speaker 1: Project of Texas. Thanks again, Thank you guys, don't forget

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00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

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Speaker 1: Ennessis Project and I really hope you'll join me in

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00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

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00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innesssproject dot org to learn how

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00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

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00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

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Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 1: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

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Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number on one