1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Robock and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 3: Few killers have captured the public imagination quite like Ted Bundy. 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 3: More than three decades after his execution, people remain fascinated 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 3: by the man responsible for the murders of at least 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 3: thirty young women across multiple states. Handsome, intelligent, and outwardly charming, 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 3: Bundy shattered the public's assumptions about what a serial killer 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 3: was supposed to look like, making his story one of 10 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 3: the most enduring and unsettling cases in American criminal history. Today, 11 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 3: we are joined by filmmaker Joe Berlinger, one of the 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 3: world's leading true crime storytellers and director of Extremely Wicked, 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 3: Shockingly Evil, and Vile. The film examines how someone capable 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 3: of such horrific crimes could appear so normal, charismatic, and trustworthy. Joe, 15 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 3: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for being here. 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,279 Speaker 4: Of course, delighted to be here. How are you doing today? 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm doing great, aside from having Ted Bundy 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 3: all up in my grill because it's I mean, this guy, 19 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 3: it's truly he's utterly diabolical and kind of the purest 20 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 3: sense of the word, a truly sick human beings. So, 21 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 3: before we get into the movie itself, for people who 22 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: know the name Ted Bundy but maybe not the details, 23 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 3: who was Ted Bundy and why does he continue to 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: fascinate people nearly forty years after his execution. 25 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there are a lot of serial killers 26 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 4: who were more prolific, killed more people. We're more sed 27 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 4: stick if you can rank it, you know, but Bundy 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 4: fascinates us to this day because I think he shattered 29 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 4: the myth or the illusion that made us comfortable about 30 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 4: what a serial killer is. You know, he he was 31 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 4: well liked, charming, intelligent, and he lured his victims to 32 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 4: their deaths by using his charm. You know, we want 33 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 4: to think that serial killers, you know, emerge from the 34 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 4: shadows looking really creepy with blood dripping from their teeth, 35 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 4: because it allows us to say to ourselves, give us 36 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 4: the false comfort that you can identify the evildoer in society. 37 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 4: But you know, the truth is, and why Bundy is 38 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 4: so well remembered, is that he was well liked by 39 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 4: his friends. He had a living girlfriend in fact, which 40 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: is the whole point of view of extremely wicked. So 41 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 4: here's a guy who preyed upon collegiate young collegiate women 42 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 4: in the Pacific Northwest University of Washington, you know, Seattle area, 43 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 4: but then continued his killing spree, you know, in Colorado 44 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 4: and Utah. Ultimately he was caught in Florida. But he 45 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 4: was a charming fellow when he wanted to be. And 46 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 4: in all of my explorations of crime, I've done a 47 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 4: lot of crime documentary work in addition to that scripted movie. 48 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 4: You know, the hard truth is that the people who 49 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 4: do evil in this world are not the people who 50 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 4: look like they're going to do evil. It's people you 51 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 4: least expect and most often trust. And you know that's 52 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 4: true with all shocking crime. The pedophilic priest or the 53 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 4: basketball coach who takes advantage of the locker room. You know, 54 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 4: Bundy was Bundy made us realize that serial killers can 55 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: be the guy Index Stoor who's you know, you invite 56 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 4: over to a party. And so that's one reason we 57 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 4: remember Bundy. The other reason we remember Bundy is he 58 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 4: kind of there was there was. I hate to use 59 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 4: this phrase because it sounds sensationals. I don't mean in 60 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 4: this way, but kind of the golden age of serial killers. 61 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 4: These outraged white men Gacy, Dahmer, Undy and Bundy kind 62 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: of kicked off that ear in the seventies and eighties 63 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 4: where this kind of crime was much easier to commit 64 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 4: than it is now. There are cameras everywhere now, but 65 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 4: back then, forensic science was not what it is today. 66 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: Back in, police departments didn't share information. As shocking as 67 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 4: that is, you know, crimes you know that took place 68 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 4: in different police terre. You know, there's fourteen thousand police 69 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 4: jurisdictions in this country and they now they share information. 70 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: But Bundy is the case that taught them to share 71 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 4: information because they were missing, you know, the fact that 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 4: there is a serial killer. In fact, the term serial 73 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 4: killer was invented, you know, in the Bundy era, and 74 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 4: and the modern art of profiling, right profiling what a 75 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: serial killer is came a bath through the study of Bundy. 76 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 4: So he's just, you know, he's just, He's just. And 77 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: then you know, you could also say that our you know, 78 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 4: you're a true crime podcast, I'm a true crime film aker. 79 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 4: Although I hate the phrase true crime. We can get 80 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 4: into that at a minute. 81 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: I know it's not my favorite either, But. 82 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 4: You know, I think our modern media fascination with serial 83 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: killers can trace back to Bundy because he was a man. 84 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 4: You know, he was a He was an influencer and 85 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 4: a social media master before the existence. 86 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: Of the right. 87 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: He manipulated people's perceptions of him, He represented himself at 88 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 4: trial and created this amazing for all those reasons, we 89 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 4: remember Ted Bundy. 90 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: Yes, we are definitely going to get into the circus 91 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 3: that was the courtroom and all of and the women 92 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: that flocked to seemingly just want to see him, which I. 93 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: Can't metabolize that. But so one of the most shocking. 94 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: Facts about Ted's early life is that he spent many 95 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: years believing that his mother was actually his sister. So 96 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: do you because back in the day it was sort 97 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 3: of the unwed mother's right and it was you were 98 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 3: kind of banished away if you didn't have a husband 99 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: and the father present. So do you think that that 100 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 3: family secret had any lasting impact on him? 101 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, we always try to explain things. 102 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 4: I don't buy any of these theories. I think people are, 103 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 4: you know, going to do evil, They're going to do 104 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 4: evil you know, I mean, I think, I think, you know, 105 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 4: I think there's a physical difference, and that's there's a 106 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 4: woman named Dorothy Lewis who did a lot of exploration 107 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 4: into brain abnormalities of serial killers. You know, there's a 108 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 4: lot of people who had very happy childhoods, and interesting 109 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 4: Bundy mythologizes his childhood as a you know, in the tapes, 110 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: in the mythologizes his childhood as a happy place. But 111 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 4: like the shock that he was adopted, you know, I 112 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 4: just don't buy those as you know, how many people 113 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 4: have trauma. I mean, honestly, I grew up with an 114 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 4: abusive father who beat the shit out of us, and 115 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 4: like I could have gone off and you know, his 116 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 4: father beat it out of him, and my father beat 117 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 4: the shit out of me. And I'm the nicest last 118 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 4: my wife, I'm the nicest guy. I've exercised my trauma 119 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 4: through making films, but I haven't laid a finger on 120 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 4: my wife for children, and never would, So like I don't, 121 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 4: I don't think you can explain away these things, unfortunately, 122 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 4: and it's as you know, a lot of people have 123 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 4: this knee jerk reaction to true crime podcast true Crime 124 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 4: storytelling you know, some people love it, of course, you know, 125 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 4: and some people just think, you we shouldn't be making 126 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: films about this. I got so many criticism, why are 127 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 4: you glorifying the serial killer? And it's not glorifying. Unfortunately, 128 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 4: serial killing and murder is part of the human condition. 129 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 4: I mean, unfortunately, this is part of who we are. 130 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: And we don't tell storytellers don't do films about divorce 131 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: or adultery. We don't say, don't do films about greed, 132 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 4: you know, but this is part of the human condition, 133 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 4: and if we want to understand the phenomenon, we have 134 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 4: to look at in the face. So I don't think 135 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 4: you can. I think there's an easy just going back 136 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 4: to your question, I don't think there's an easy explanation 137 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 4: for why anybody you know becomes a serial killer. He 138 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 4: didn't have that horrible a childhood, right. 139 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: We had a psychologist on who made the connection told 140 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,239 Speaker 3: me that Jack Nicholson, I think, had a similar situation 141 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: where he grew up for a period of time thinking 142 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 3: that his mother was his sister. And she said, you know, 143 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: made the point of clearly, he did not become a 144 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: serial killer. 145 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 4: And yeah, and Jeffrey Dahmer you know, had a very 146 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 4: happy home life, you know, I mean so like you know, certainly, 147 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 4: certainly abuse of children it is something we should all, 148 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 4: you know, worry about, and it certainly doesn't create people 149 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 4: who sometimes act out because of that abuse. So there 150 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 4: is there is a link to I think, you know, 151 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 4: having a torturous childhood and some people finding that they 152 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 4: need to express it through violence. R I don't think 153 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 4: that's the key to identifying why people kill. I think 154 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 4: it's part in nature, you know. 155 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: Sadly, Yeah, do you think that? 156 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, me sitting here with my armchair expertise, 157 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 3: I think, oh, if I had ever met Ted Bundy, 158 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: I would never have been manipulated by this man because 159 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: he looks crazy to me. But he clearly was manipulated 160 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 3: by so many people. And do you think that if 161 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: he looked different he would have been caught sooner? And 162 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: is that part of. 163 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: Why he was able to continue? 164 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 5: Yeah? 165 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 4: I mean I think, I mean partially, I mean he 166 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 4: was and you know, I know there's some photos that 167 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 4: make him look crazy or whatever, but generally speaking, he was, 168 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 4: by all accounts, the charming guy, well liked had friends. 169 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 4: In fact, after the early murders, at Lake Samamish, where 170 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 4: there was a composite sketch put in the paper. A 171 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 4: number of his friends, including his girlfriend, looked at the 172 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 4: sketch and said, my god, this looks just like Ted, 173 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 4: and what a coincidence. This guy also has a BW 174 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 4: bug and just could not accept that. This guy with 175 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 4: high intelligence. You know, I think his good looks have 176 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: been slightly overstated. He was a charming He was a 177 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 4: charming fellow. You know, was attractive, and he was able. 178 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: You know, he'd walk into the library at the University 179 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 4: of Washington and with a cast on, and you know, 180 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 4: he played upon human kindness, in humanity. You know, other 181 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 4: serial killers, you know, relied on on you know, other 182 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 4: forms of capturing people. But he just relied on people's 183 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: good will and need, you know, to help, which, coming 184 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 4: from some lack empathy, was pretty extraordinary. But he'd pretend 185 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 4: he had a cast ask some girl to help him walk, 186 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 4: walk him out with books to his car, and then 187 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 4: he'd whack him over the head and take them away 188 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 4: and do terrible things. I mean, you know, but that's 189 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 4: the lesson, you know, that is the lesson of Bundy, 190 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 4: which is why I wanted to explore it and both 191 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 4: scripted and unscripted, is that just because somebody is charming 192 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 4: and good looking doesn't mean you should trust them. Whether 193 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 4: he would have got caught sooner, probably because if he 194 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 4: looked creepy and people you know, and his and his 195 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 4: and he and his acquaintances weren't in such a state 196 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 4: of shock. But it also again had to do with 197 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: the era. He wasn't caught for a long time because 198 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 4: police information from science as we know it today barely existed. 199 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 4: We didn't know about the concept of serial killing really 200 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 4: from a law enforcement standpoint. There were serial killers in 201 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 4: the past, like Jack the Ripper and whatnot, but this 202 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 4: was really the awakening of America and this guy in 203 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 4: this time period. 204 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: Right, So let's talk about extremely wicked and speaking of 205 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: you cast someone incredibly handsome and charming, Zach Efron, who 206 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: is wonderful in this So what was behind like how 207 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: there was a lot of debate about that apparently, So 208 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: why did you choose Zach? 209 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 4: A lot of criticism too. Well, Yeah, the idea of 210 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 4: the movie is to be inside the point of view, 211 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 4: you know. The documentary series, of course, is inside the 212 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 4: mind of the killer, and a complete catalog of all 213 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 4: the things he did and investigating why he did what 214 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 4: he did. What you can't do in a documentary is 215 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 4: dramatize the impact he had on those around him, you know, 216 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 4: which explains why he got away with it for so long, 217 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 4: because he had such a credible double life. And so 218 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: if you know, to me and my target audience for 219 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: this film was young collegiate women, let me take a 220 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 4: step back and tell you how this film came to be. Yes, 221 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 4: how I decided to lean into both projects. I was 222 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 4: sitting around Thanksgiving table with my two wonderful daughters who 223 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 4: at that time one was just finishing university and the 224 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 4: other was just going in. One was mit, the other 225 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: was graduating from Columbia. So I had two like a 226 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 4: proud dad, but I had two very bright young women. 227 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: Bravo dad, good job. 228 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 4: You know, went on to do great things still. But 229 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 4: this is now twenty eighteen, and I was contemplating these projects. Well, 230 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: actually I was. I hadn't get extremely wicked. The way 231 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 4: it came about was another story, but I was actually contemplating. 232 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 4: The Bundy Tapes shows an author of a book called 233 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 4: Ted Bundy Conversations with a Killer that came out in 234 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty nine. Had gone to death Row shortly before 235 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 4: Bundy was executed, and gave these interviews that are the 236 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 4: source of the documentary that was in nineteen eighty nine. 237 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 4: The book came out, the interviews were like eighty seven, 238 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 4: and the author reached out to me and said, hey, 239 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 4: I'm a big fan of your work. I found these 240 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 4: tapes that in the closet that my audio, you know, 241 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 4: my cassette tapes that I did the interviews with. Do 242 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 4: you think there's anything here for a documentary? And I said, well, 243 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 4: let's see, Bundy's a well worn tire. It's been told 244 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 4: many times, it's been twenty five years. I don't know. 245 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 4: Let me listen to the tapes. And so I listened 246 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 4: to the tapes and I thought they were extraordinary insight 247 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 4: into the mind of a killer. So I'm contemplating, you know, 248 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: like I've done crime in my career, but I had 249 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 4: never gone this dark. Most of my crime was projects 250 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 4: and thing that most that I'm most well known for 251 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 4: are my wrongful convictions. I've gotten seven people out of 252 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 4: prison over the years. Actually, and Paradise Loss was I 253 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 4: think the best known in the West Memphis Murder Case 254 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 4: and those films. I did three of them over twenty 255 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 4: years for HBO. Those films literally helped get these guys 256 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 4: off a death row and out of prison. So my 257 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 4: focus on crime has more been wrongful conviction. But I'm 258 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 4: sitting around the Thanksgiving table and I said to both 259 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 4: of my very bright daughters, I'm thinking about doing this 260 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 4: Ted Bundy thing. What do you guys think? And they're like, 261 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 4: who's Ted Bundy? I said, you know, the serial killer? 262 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 4: And they're like they had no clue. I said, that's interesting. 263 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 4: You have never heard of Ted Bundy. Nope. And then 264 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 4: I said, well, texture and both of them, you know, 265 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 4: obviously have friends who are at these very smart institutions. 266 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 4: I said, you know, text your friend Nemott and text 267 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 4: your friend Alison. Yes. And so literally nine out of 268 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 4: ten people in that age group did not know who 269 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 4: Ted Bundy was. One of them a baseball player. So 270 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 4: I thought to. 271 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 5: Myself, if the if, the if, the basic message of 272 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 5: Ted Bundy, if you could boil it all down to 273 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 5: the idea that just because somebody is good looking and charming, 274 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 5: be wary of trusting them. 275 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 4: Because right around this time, by the way, there was 276 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 4: that murder of somebody who thought they were getting into 277 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 4: an uber and it was a fake Uber driver and yes, 278 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 4: core person was murdered. So I felt very good about 279 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 4: putting out into the world a retelling of this story 280 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 4: for the Netflix generation, which which scus very young, a 281 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 4: reminder of who this dude is. 282 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, like a cautionary tale. 283 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 4: You know. How the feature came about is another thing, 284 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 4: which was And just to get to your main question, why, Zach, 285 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 4: So my lesson from the doc was, Wow, a lot 286 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 4: of people don't know this story of that age group, 287 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 4: and they really need to know that story because catfishing 288 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 4: happens all the time, you know, and you just you 289 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 4: need to know who you're dealing with before you implicitly 290 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 4: trust them. And then I was actually having lunch, and 291 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 4: I know this sounds so Hollywood. I live in a 292 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 4: work I'm not like a Hollywood guy. But I was 293 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: having lunch with my CIA agent, Michael Cooper, and I 294 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 4: was telling him how fascinating the Bundy tapes were, and 295 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 4: I think this is going to be really you know, 296 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 4: I think I'm innovating the genre of documentary. I think 297 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 4: I think there's something really interesting here. And I was 298 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: just excited about the show, and a light bulb went 299 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 4: off in his head and he said, oh, you know, 300 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 4: there's this Hollywood blacklisted script called Extremely Wicked. You should 301 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 4: check out now the Hollywood Blacklist for your audience in 302 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 4: case you don't write. It's not a negative thing. It's 303 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 4: a positive thing that Hollywood blacklists are scripts that have 304 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 4: been kicking around Hollywood that producers and studios have attempted 305 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 4: to make or want to make, but they just you know, 306 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 4: either the money falls out, the cast falls out. Some 307 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: say that cancels the project. Scripts that are noteworthy but 308 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 4: have been not produced. And so Michael Cooper said, you 309 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 4: should read the Hollywood blacklisted script of Extremely Wicked if 310 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 4: you're into this territory. I read the script and somewhere 311 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 4: over Denver, I texted him like I read it. On 312 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 4: the flight home, I said, I love it. I love 313 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 4: the POV because the POV is you don't know, it's 314 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: Ted Bundy. Well that was the original draft. So so 315 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 4: he connected me with the guy who owned the rights 316 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 4: to the script, a guy named Michael Cossagan who's now 317 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 4: Jason Bateman's partner at Aggregate. And I so I called 318 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 4: Michael a lot, we set up a zoom and I said, 319 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 4: I love the script. By the way, I'm in the 320 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 4: middle of doing a documentary about it, so nobody knows 321 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 4: more about the subject matter than me, and I have 322 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 4: an idea of why this has been hard to produce, 323 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 4: and here's my concept. And basically the script relies on 324 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 4: you not knowing it's Ted Bundy until the very end 325 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 4: of the movie in the original script. And to me, 326 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 4: I said, to Michael, I said, that's great for a experience, 327 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 4: but in this world, there's no way you can cast somebody, 328 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 4: make a movie and have people hold the secret that 329 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 4: this guy who's seemingly being wrongfully accused of these crimes 330 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 4: is actually if you don't of being you know, Ted Bundy. 331 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 4: Holding that until the end of the movie, I think 332 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 4: is just not going to work as a movie. But 333 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 4: if we lean into the fact that it's Ted Bundy, 334 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 4: and this script was by Michael work by the way, 335 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 4: and those did a brilliant job. So I'm not saying 336 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 4: we did a massive rewrite. We just did some tweaks 337 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 4: and really lean in. The audience knows all along that 338 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: it's Ted Bundy, you know, and we're seeing things from 339 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 4: the perspective of the girlfriend who in real life he 340 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: got he I mean, it all happened. He lived with 341 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 4: this woman, Elizabeth Kendall. Elizabeth Kendall had a daughter from 342 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 4: another relationship who revered Ted. And so getting back to 343 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: why I cast Zach if my daughter's generation is the 344 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: target audience for this movie, and the point of the 345 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 4: movie is be careful who you trust and go along 346 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 4: with the ride that maybe he if you don't know 347 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 4: that much about Bundy, that maybe this guy does have 348 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 4: maybe he is innocent. Why not choose an actor for whom, 349 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 4: for a certain generation, they just revere this guy, They 350 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 4: think they know him. He's so beloved by young women 351 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 4: of that age group that I want it to be 352 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 4: a shock. I want them to believe, well, maybe it 353 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 4: is credible, that it's a misunderstanding. And so when he 354 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 4: finally you know, writes hack Saw in. 355 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: The Glass at the very end of the movie, when 356 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: Lily Collins' character you know, intellectually knows he's the killer 357 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: but emotionally needs to know and says, release me, tell 358 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: me the truth, and he writes. 359 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 4: Hacksaw, I want the audience for whom who's mainly targeted 360 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 4: to to have that same emotional experience of feeling betrayed 361 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 4: by somebody they revered, like Zach Effron. Like it was 362 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 4: written off as stunt casting and sensationalizing. No, the reality 363 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: is this serial killer got away with it because he 364 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 4: charmed people through and had a double life, And that's 365 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 4: what I was trying to portray, you know. 366 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is something that is very similar about their 367 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: eyes in particular, and I know, I'm sure there you know, 368 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 3: we see Ted in the real Taed just with that 369 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: kind of deep, dark stare into people, and I feel 370 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: like the film does a great job of mirroring that idea. 371 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 3: And Zach has such a gaze that you know, generally speaking, 372 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: is so bright and lovely and charming, but it's when 373 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 3: it's turned this way it is indeed dark. 374 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 4: Ye. 375 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 3: I mean, he was very very good and so the 376 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: you know, so people were saying that it glamorized him, 377 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 3: But is it possible to you know, even talk about 378 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 3: him because he was such a sociopath and such a 379 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 3: narcissist that I don't know, is it even possible to 380 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 3: portray him without some kind of belief that you're glamorizing it. 381 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 4: I mean, that argument is to me, is just so 382 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 4: narrow minded that we're glamorizing somebody who in real life, 383 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 4: as I said, Bundy was attractive to many women. I 384 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: mean whether whether he was attractive as Zach, you know, no, 385 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 4: but he it was attractive enough that he attacted groupies 386 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 4: to his trial who all believed he was innocent. Those 387 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 4: groupies weren't there because oh my god, I love serial 388 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 4: killers and I can't wait for this guy to do 389 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 4: his next killing. They thought he was charming and innocent 390 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 4: and wrongfully convicted. That's the power that this guy had. 391 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 4: That's the power that Zach had. That's what I'm portraying. 392 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 4: I'm portraying the uncomfortable truth, and I think that's why 393 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 4: it's it rubbed some people the wrong way. The uncomfortable 394 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 4: truth is that you're good looking, neighbor, you're good looking 395 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 4: or I hate to use the word good looking, because 396 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 4: that's what that's oversimplified. You you know your neighbor, whom 397 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 4: you like, and trust your boss whomever. All those people 398 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 4: could potentially be a serial killer and they're off hours 399 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 4: and that's that gaslighting of the people around them, convincing 400 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 4: them that they're a good guy. What the movie is portraying. 401 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 4: Anyone who thinks, by the end of the movie, I'm 402 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 4: glamorizing them is just got to have their head examined, 403 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 4: because by the end of the movie he admits to 404 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 4: having cut the head off of his last victim with 405 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 4: the Lily Collins character wanted to and Lily has this 406 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 4: flashback of all the little clues along the way. Now, 407 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 4: you know, we've all had that experience where you notice 408 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 4: something is off subconsciously, but you don't really pay attention 409 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 4: to it. But then when you realize the truth, you know, oh, 410 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 4: that person's cheating on me. Oh my best. Then then 411 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 4: a flood of images that you interpreted one way come 412 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 4: back to you now with their with their truth. Yes, 413 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 4: you know, you know it's funny. I mean, I just 414 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 4: think it's generally the I think there's a certain group 415 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 4: of people who obviously love this stuff, and there's a 416 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 4: certain group of people who just have a knee jerk 417 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 4: reaction that true crime shouldn't be made, that any any 418 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 4: tempt to tell that story is glamorization. And as I 419 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 4: said before, we don't tell people not to make stories 420 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 4: about X, Y or Z. Why would we avoid telling 421 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 4: stories about one of the most fundamental aspects of the 422 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 4: human condition. Yes, just to demonstrate how you can't win 423 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 4: no matter what in this category for those who charge glamorization. 424 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 4: When Conversations with a Killer came out, it's a very 425 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 4: detailed accounting of all the gross things he did. It's 426 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 4: inside his mind why he did what he did, how 427 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 4: he did what he did. Like you know, very few 428 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 4: details are spared. It's a hard show to watch. And 429 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 4: when that show came out and the trailer came out, 430 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 4: I was excoriated by that group of people. Look at 431 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 4: all this violence. How can you show this viol You're 432 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 4: glamorizing Bundy by showing all this violence. Okay, note to self. 433 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 4: Now I make a movie called Extremely Wicked in which 434 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 4: it has very little violence. The whole point of the movie, 435 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 4: I don't see any act of killing. You know, it's 436 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 4: reference at the trial, but even that's late in the movie. 437 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 4: But the only the only real killing that you see 438 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 4: is when Lily has that final meeting. Keep saying, Lily, 439 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 4: Lily Collins character has that final meeting with Ted Bundy 440 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 4: on death row where she needs to hear him say 441 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 4: the words to make her really understand that, Oh my god, 442 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 4: I've been gas lit all this time. Intellectually knows, but 443 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 4: she needs to know emotionally. And that's when we have 444 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 4: that flashback of images and there's just you know, it's 445 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 4: just as it's a very PG film on a certain level. 446 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 4: And when that film came out and the trailer came out, 447 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: you know, remember I was excred by the glamorization crowd 448 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 4: for too much violence. Now when Extremely Wicked trailer drops 449 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 4: six months later, I'm excuriated because I'm showing too little violence. 450 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 4: How can you show such little violence that's glamorizing? So 451 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 4: which is it? Too much violence is glamor right or 452 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 4: too little violence is right right? So I just think 453 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 4: you can't win with a certain crowd who just finds 454 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: this kind of storytelling. 455 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: Offenses right right. 456 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 4: And you can choose not to watch, but don't tell me, 457 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 4: as a maker of content not to do it, as 458 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 4: long as you do it responsibily, I mean, honestly, I agree. 459 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 4: One of the this goes back to when I said 460 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 4: I hate the phrase true crime. You know, people call 461 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 4: me a true crime pioneer. I like the pioneer part. 462 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 4: The true crime crime kind of gives me the willies 463 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 4: because there is a lot of irresponsible true crime out there. Yes, 464 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 4: stuff that's tonally off, that makes fun of in a 465 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 4: way that I think is disrespectful to victims. There's a 466 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 4: lot of scripted filmmakers who will go nameless, you know, 467 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 4: that do scripted versions of stories and don't reach out 468 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 4: to the victims, don't make sure it's with them, you know, 469 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 4: don't even interact with the victims in terms of or 470 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 4: the real people involved to tell the story, which I 471 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 4: think is unconscionable. So for me, the phrase true crime 472 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 4: conjures up this baggage of wallowing in the misery of 473 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 4: others just to tell a story without any concern for 474 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 4: social justice or victims. And so I can for myself 475 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 4: a criminal justice filmmaker, you know, who tells dark stories 476 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 4: of crime, you know. And even with Bundy, you know, 477 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,719 Speaker 4: when they say you're glamorizing or sensationalizing, there's not a 478 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 4: single show that I've done where I don't ask myself, 479 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 4: what's the social justice needle to move here? How can 480 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 4: I impact the case? You know? And again for Bundy, 481 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 4: it was like my god, very bright twenty one year 482 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 4: olds don't know who Ted Bundy is. And both of 483 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 4: my daughters with long hair and being twenty a prototypical 484 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 4: Bundy victim, and so I felt retelling that story for 485 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 4: the Netflix generation was an important thing to do. 486 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm one hundred percent with you on all of this, 487 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 3: and even in you know, doing this podcast, I am 488 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: deeply committed to talking about the human side of this 489 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 3: and how do people get from A to Z and 490 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 3: the people I'm particularly. 491 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: Moved by the people. 492 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: Who go through great trauma, survive it, and then continue 493 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: to thrive and either lean into that part of their 494 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 3: lives where they see it as Okay, I have to 495 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 3: kind of answer the call of my life and keep 496 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 3: going and either help through this or you know, create change, 497 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 3: impact change. So I'm totally with you on this. Okay, 498 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 3: We're going to leave it there for today, but next time, 499 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 3: Joe Berlinger returns as we continue our exploration of Ted Bundy, 500 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: the man who fooled so many people for so long, 501 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 3: and the legacy of fear and fascination he left behind.