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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and this episode

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Speaker 1: is from the Vault. It originally aired on July seven.

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Speaker 1: This is an episode about travel, that's right, this one.

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Speaker 1: I believe this is a MASA sponsored episode, and it's

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Speaker 1: just about how does travel engage the senses, which which

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Speaker 1: I thought that made for a pretty fun discussion. Oh

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Speaker 1: and it's thematically appropriate because because Seth is on the

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Speaker 1: road this week, so I hope his senses are being

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Speaker 1: fully engaged. Well, now I don't know about fully. I

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Speaker 1: hope because he's traveling with Pats, So I hope it's

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Speaker 1: it's like a comfortable level of sense engagement. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm wishing for him. Pleasure and pain indivisible. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about travel. This is an interesting subject

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Speaker 1: to think about right now because of the context of

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Speaker 1: the ongoing pandemic. You know, at least here in the

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Speaker 1: United States in early July. Of course, the risk from

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Speaker 1: coronavirus is still clear, it's very profound, and so this

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Speaker 1: has put some obvious limitations on people's designs for summer travel,

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Speaker 1: like whether it's actually worth the risk at all to

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Speaker 1: travel right now, and if you do travel, how to

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Speaker 1: mitigate those risks. Of course, if you are traveling this summer,

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Speaker 1: you should consult your local health guidelines. It'll probably include

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Speaker 1: advice like avoiding crowds, all the stuff you're familiar with

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Speaker 1: by now, keeping your distance from people outside your household,

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Speaker 1: wearing a mask. If you're in public, you might need

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Speaker 1: to quarantine before or afterwards, depending on where you are,

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Speaker 1: and so forth. But in addition to these practical considerations,

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Speaker 1: it's the time of year that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: would traditionally be thinking about summer vacation season. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'd be thinking about how this is when they would

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Speaker 1: be trying to get out of the house and go

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Speaker 1: somewhere and see something new, and that underlying urge might

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Speaker 1: still be there even as we grapple with all the

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Speaker 1: risks and important precautions that you would need to take

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Speaker 1: if you were actually going to travel right now. And

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Speaker 1: this has gotten me thinking about what travel means to

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Speaker 1: us and why it is that our brains keep trying

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Speaker 1: to compel us to visit far off places known and unknown. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and to your point, though, it is a weird time

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Speaker 1: to think about travel. I was in a like a

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Speaker 1: zoom call with some friends last week, and one of

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Speaker 1: one of them said, well, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I can do next week because I need to travel. Actually, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not traveling. I'm just going. I'm getting in the

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Speaker 1: car and going from one place to another. And we're

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Speaker 1: all a little that's travel. That sounds a lot like travel,

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Speaker 1: but but we mean different things by travel and um,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna we're gonna get into that a bit

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Speaker 1: here in this episode, because Yeah, human travel is really

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Speaker 1: fascinating when you think about it. The act of simply

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Speaker 1: traversing distances, or say, traversing vast distances, is far from

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Speaker 1: a distinctly human thing. Uh. Consider like some of the

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Speaker 1: more outstanding cases like the Eastern gray whale, for example,

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Speaker 1: which regularly journeys close to fourteen thousand miles from Russian

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Speaker 1: waters to Mexico and then back again. Yeah, great white

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Speaker 1: sharks or another example that swim just these unimaginable distances.

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Speaker 1: I was just reading some reports from fourteen about a

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Speaker 1: great white shark named Lydia that was tagged with a

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Speaker 1: tracking device off the coast of Florida in March, and

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Speaker 1: then about a year later she had traveled something like

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand miles across the Atlantic, you know, crossing over

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Speaker 1: the Mid Atlantic Ridge and was heading towards basically around

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Speaker 1: the UK. Yeah. Another example that frequently comes up monarch butterflies.

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Speaker 1: They take a five thousand, five hundred mile journey from

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Speaker 1: central Mexico and California up into North America. It kind

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Speaker 1: of goes in different phases, but eventually they're you know,

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Speaker 1: they're getting up as far north as the Great Lakes.

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Speaker 1: And then in the the avian world, we have a

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Speaker 1: number of amazing examples, but the most extreme aim is

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Speaker 1: that of the Arctic Turn, which flies a record forty

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Speaker 1: four thousand miles. So these are just a few examples

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Speaker 1: of some amazing journeys undertaken by individuals or groups. But

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Speaker 1: then there's also the steady tide of migration that enables

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Speaker 1: organisms to spread out across the planet. In humans are

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Speaker 1: of course a prime example of this, with our earliest

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Speaker 1: waves of archaic human migration beginning what an estimated two

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Speaker 1: million years ago, and in waves, we proceeded over the

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Speaker 1: course of our history to spread across the planet, finding

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Speaker 1: a foothold in all but the most inhospitable of environments. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And there's something interesting to think about when comparing human

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Speaker 1: travel to other long traveling organisms, which is that humans

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Speaker 1: travel mostly on land. Like obviously we travel by air

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Speaker 1: and c. Two. But when you think about most of

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Speaker 1: human history, a lot of the traveling is on land.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at just a list of like

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Speaker 1: the farthest traveling organisms, you will see a lot of

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Speaker 1: magnificent beasts that travel either by water or by air.

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Speaker 1: And these are very different methods of travel, right. These

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Speaker 1: are both methods that allow you to do unique things

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Speaker 1: like drift along in currents of the fluid, whether that's

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Speaker 1: air or water, that move naturally through the larger media.

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Speaker 1: You can't really do the same thing on land, right,

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Speaker 1: unless you're like riding a mud slide down a mountain,

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Speaker 1: which is not safe and not recommended. Uh. And and

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Speaker 1: so that makes that makes land travel kind of different

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Speaker 1: than the other ones. Uh. And of course there are

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Speaker 1: other animals that do this. There are there are some

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Speaker 1: epic walkers on earth, like the blue willed to beast

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Speaker 1: in Africa, or the caribou in North America, the ladder

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Speaker 1: which sometimes migrates something like forty kilometers annually. Yeah, it's incredible.

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Speaker 1: I guess you could say that that flying and uh

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Speaker 1: and traveling by boat for the passenger. Anyway, it is

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Speaker 1: kind of like you're taking walking and via the use

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Speaker 1: of vehicles, applying it to the air the sea. That's right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but but yeah, for the most part, we are we

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Speaker 1: are walkers. We have to have these these fabulous vehicles

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Speaker 1: that allow us to do anything more. I do enjoy

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Speaker 1: those thought experiments of like running, how fast are you going?

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Speaker 1: If you're running forward in a plane cabin that's already

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Speaker 1: flying too fast because you should sit down. Um. Now.

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Speaker 1: Of so, human societies, of course, they've spread out across

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Speaker 1: the world, but of course they continue to move around

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Speaker 1: for the same reasons did animal species do. For resources,

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Speaker 1: for mating, for shelter. Hunter gatherer societies especially had to

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Speaker 1: follow the natural abb and flow of available resources where

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Speaker 1: food could be found growing, where the prey animals traveled,

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Speaker 1: and therefore, you know, you'd have to follow them and

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Speaker 1: hunt them and there were also associated sites that offered shelter, water,

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Speaker 1: or say in some cases something like hot spring, something

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Speaker 1: that was you know, a desirable resource to have on hand.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until the agricultural revolution that humans really

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Speaker 1: were able to put themselves more in a position to

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Speaker 1: set down roots. But still many groups remain nomadic by

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Speaker 1: necessity Shepherd's you know, for sure, but also you know,

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Speaker 1: think of fisher people who still have to get in

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Speaker 1: their fantastic vehicles of old and travel to where the

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Speaker 1: fish can be found, and with surplus stocks of agriculture.

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Speaker 1: With the rise of cities, we also see the traveling conqueror,

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Speaker 1: the the occupation of cities and advances in sailing technology

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Speaker 1: that enabled people to expand even further. But what about

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Speaker 1: traveling for reasons not directly associated with food, shelter and reproduction.

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Speaker 1: This leads us to a particularly human aspect of travel.

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Speaker 1: Uh that that ultimately brings us to our modern idea

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Speaker 1: of travel and especially things like vacation travel. But it

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Speaker 1: has its roots in religious travel, sacred travel, and pilgrimage. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: I was reading um paper by Lett's uh kilber Um

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Speaker 1: and this was a titled Paradigms of travel from medieval

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage to the postmodern virtual tour polished in two thousand

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Speaker 1: six Tours and Religion and Spiritual Journeys UH, and the

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Speaker 1: author points out that religiously motivated or sacred travel to

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Speaker 1: sacred sites might well be the oldest and most prevalent

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Speaker 1: type of travel and human history, and may have factored

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Speaker 1: into the beginnings of the world's oldest religions. Religious travel

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Speaker 1: is the oldest form of what is sometimes referred to

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Speaker 1: as non economic travel, and we see evidence of this

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Speaker 1: going back even to Neolithic times. I was reading about

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Speaker 1: this in UH Intercultural Pilgrimage Identity and the Actual Age

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Speaker 1: in the Ancient Near East by Joy mccorriston, published in

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Speaker 1: Excavating Pilgrimage from seventeen and the author points out that

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Speaker 1: we see examples of temporary gathering UH sacrifice and feast

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Speaker 1: that are quote commemorated in a memorial or monument with

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Speaker 1: subsequent revisits, and these day back to Neolithic times. Likewise,

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Speaker 1: in Africa we see evidence from eight thousand years ago

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Speaker 1: of cattle sacrifice in quote mortuary linked feasting that they

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Speaker 1: commemorated with stone monuments. Religious pilgrimage is an interesting thing

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Speaker 1: to consider, and there are multiple models for thinking about

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Speaker 1: the cultural role of pilgrimage and how it first emerges

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Speaker 1: in history or I guess in prehistory, given the examples

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Speaker 1: you just cited. One interesting idea that I came across

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Speaker 1: was in the works of the influential anthropologists Victor and

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Speaker 1: Edith Turner in their nineteen seventy eight book Image and

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Speaker 1: Pilgrimage and Christian Culture that was from Columbia University Press.

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Speaker 1: And in this book they observe a lot of things

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Speaker 1: about Christian pilgrimage site so they do like observation of

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Speaker 1: the behaviors of pilgrims, uh it sites from Mexico to

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Speaker 1: Ireland to France, and they end up characterizing these religious

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Speaker 1: pilgrimages as what they call a lemonoid phenomenon. Now, this

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Speaker 1: was interesting to me, but it also gets kind of

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Speaker 1: complex and took me a while to understand, and I

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Speaker 1: think I've got it figured out. So here are the basics.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, First of all, the idea of limonoid phenomenon

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Speaker 1: plays on the original idea of a liminal experience, which

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Speaker 1: is a term that was coined by a folklorist named

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Speaker 1: Arnold van gennep Uh And the word liminal here comes

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Speaker 1: from the word for threshold. So a liminal experience is

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Speaker 1: part of an initiation or a right of passage, in

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Speaker 1: which a person temporarily steps outside of normal social structures

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Speaker 1: to undergo or signal a change, and then rejoins the

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Speaker 1: social structure on the other side of the experience having changed.

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Speaker 1: So there's who you are before the change that's preliminal,

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Speaker 1: and then there's who you are after the change that's postliminal,

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Speaker 1: and then in between there's this suspended middle state, the

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Speaker 1: liminal stage. And this might be in a practical example,

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Speaker 1: say the time that a person physically separates themselves from

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Speaker 1: the rest of their tribe to do rituals for some

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Speaker 1: part of a right of passage. And in the con

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Speaker 1: text that they studied, the Turners argue that this middle

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Speaker 1: liminal status is reinforced by the fact that people join

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Speaker 1: in what they call a community toss. It's this sense

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Speaker 1: of community with other pilgrims that comes with a freeing

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Speaker 1: sense of equality and a shedding of previously existing social

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Speaker 1: structures and differences. Though I have noted that several critics

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Speaker 1: disagree with the Turner's characterization here citing examples of well

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Speaker 1: you know that there are times when regular power structures

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Speaker 1: are still expressed among in between pilgrims to religious sites.

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Speaker 1: It may be that if this equalizing community power of

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Speaker 1: community toss during pilgrimage really exists, it might be more

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Speaker 1: common in some types of pilgrimage than others. And just

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Speaker 1: one example, there is a paper I found by a

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Speaker 1: scholar named Darlene Yushka, which does an amazing job of

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Speaker 1: making this critical point just in its title, which is

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Speaker 1: whose turn is it to cook? But to bring it

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Speaker 1: back to the idea of so so there are doing

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Speaker 1: that pilgrimage might be one of these liminal experiences, this

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Speaker 1: like in in the middle state of this change process,

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Speaker 1: except they call it not quite liminal. They say it's lemonoid.

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Speaker 1: And so lemonoid applies to experiences that are somewhat like

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Speaker 1: liminal experiences in structure, but they're more optional and they're

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Speaker 1: less explicitly transformative of your station in society, so they

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Speaker 1: might be seen as simply an internally transformative experience rather

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Speaker 1: than as a marker of an external change in status.

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Speaker 1: And in a lot of religious traditions, pilgrimage is honored

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Speaker 1: but not required, you know, so that would make it

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Speaker 1: more limonoid than liminal. And I was reading a review

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Speaker 1: of the Turner's work by the anthropologist Daniel are Gross,

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Speaker 1: and so he has kind of a mixed opinion. He

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Speaker 1: thinks the book is valuable, but that he also has

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Speaker 1: some criticisms of the idea of communitas being a universal

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Speaker 1: But he pulls an interesting quote from the Turner's book

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Speaker 1: describing the role of of the of the Christian pilgrimage,

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Speaker 1: which says, quote, in the paradigmatic Christian pilgrimage, the initiatory

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Speaker 1: quality of the process is given priority, though it is

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Speaker 1: initiation to and not through a threshold. So, if I

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Speaker 1: understand correctly, in their view, based on all of the

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Speaker 1: observations they've made of Christian pilgrimages, the symbolic message of

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Speaker 1: a Christian pilgrimage most often might be not you are

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Speaker 1: now changed, but welcome to the process of change. That's interesting,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's something we can we can continue

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Speaker 1: to take with us in this discussion and apply to

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Speaker 1: uh to to travel itself. The idea of travel as

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Speaker 1: as a process of change, which we probably don't think

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Speaker 1: about it as such, but I think whenever we engage

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Speaker 1: in meaningful travel, uh, it is a process of change.

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Speaker 1: We should arrive in a different place and end in

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Speaker 1: at least a slightly transformed state of mind. Like even

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Speaker 1: if it's as simple as well, I have to drive

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Speaker 1: up to uh, you know, um to my parents house,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna listen to this audio book on the way,

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Speaker 1: or I'm gonna catch up on my podcast, Like I'm

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Speaker 1: somehow going to arrive there in an enhanced state. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right, And I think it makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense to think about that enhanced state

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Speaker 1: that travel triggers as essentially an openness to change or

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Speaker 1: a potential for change. So I think it's pretty safe

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Speaker 1: to say that, as far as non economic travel goes,

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Speaker 1: sacred journeys are ultimately that the predecessor to modern vacation travel. Now,

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Speaker 1: a particular line is often drawn to the link between

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Speaker 1: medieval pilgrimage and also some of the economics of medieval

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage with modern travel. You know, you see advances in

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Speaker 1: banking and so forth to take place during that time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And of course it's also important to note that the

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Speaker 1: pilgrimage is still you know, very much a part of

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Speaker 1: modern travel traditions, not only in the overt case of

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Speaker 1: you know, people going on an actual pill grimmage to

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Speaker 1: holy side, say, you know, to to Mecca on the hodge,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, but also holy sites are often

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Speaker 1: of significance to the modern traveler, even if they themselves

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Speaker 1: are not uh, you know, believers of that particular faith

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Speaker 1: or practitioners of that particular faith. Like if you you know,

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Speaker 1: if you go to a particular vacation destination and there

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Speaker 1: is an ancient temple, there's a good chance you're gonna

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Speaker 1: want to check it out into whatever degree is appropriate.

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Speaker 1: This actually triggers something for me that I want to

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Speaker 1: come back to when we talk about Roman tourism. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Roman tourism, because because this is also key we again

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Speaker 1: we can we can look to examples of sacred travel, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, far back in history. But in terms of

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Speaker 1: looking for examples of travel that more closely resemble modern

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Speaker 1: vacation travel, there are some interesting examples from the Greek

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Speaker 1: and Roman periods. Uh. For instance, in our episode uh

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Speaker 1: that we have this is from what a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, I think we did an episode on the

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Speaker 1: singing Colossi of Memnon. We mentioned how the then fourteen

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Speaker 1: hundred year old pair of Egyptian statues were visited by

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Speaker 1: Roman travelers in the first century. See they you know,

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Speaker 1: they'd come to experience them, to to hear this unique

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Speaker 1: singing that they that that they produced. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: they inscribed their names on the statue as well to

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Speaker 1: show that they had been there. So rude. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess they just must have had a different attitude

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Speaker 1: towards the preservation of historical artifacts and monuments. But man, yeah,

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Speaker 1: graffiti on this like hundreds of years old monument. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's worth noting that they did seem to equate

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Speaker 1: these statues with the Greek figure mem Non. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: the colossi were not really of any religious value to

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Speaker 1: the Roman travelers as far as we can tell. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And of course they were of Egyptian origin anyway. On

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Speaker 1: one hand, I think that is true. But also that

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Speaker 1: had me thinking about another tangent about the significance of

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Speaker 1: sites that we visit and how our orientation toward culture

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Speaker 1: and religion kind of uh mitigates whatever that that relationship

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Speaker 1: is uh, something that I think is possibly interesting about

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Speaker 1: understanding the pagan Roman mindset is that, well, at least

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Speaker 1: compared to us, at least here in the United States.

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Speaker 1: For a lot of US, our idea of religious significance

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Speaker 1: is primarily through either kind of a secular lens of

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Speaker 1: just sort of disinterested observation, or perhaps through an exclusive

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Speaker 1: monotheistic lens, so that when we visit sites or monuments

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Speaker 1: that were of religious significance to other cultures in history.

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Speaker 1: I think it's possible that we're more likely to just

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Speaker 1: think what that was somebody else's belief I don't believe that,

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Speaker 1: but this is interesting. But the pagan Romans were I

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Speaker 1: think somewhat more religiously omnivorous. Their world was full of

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Speaker 1: God's and I think too many of them it would

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Speaker 1: have been perfectly plausible to go somewhere and find out

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Speaker 1: about yet another God that you weren't aware of before.

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Speaker 1: Uh So I think it might have been possible for

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Speaker 1: a pagan Roman to wonder, you know, to to see

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Speaker 1: a statue made by the ancient Egyptians that had some

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Speaker 1: religious significance to them and wonder if something is going

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Speaker 1: on here that's worth investigating or knowing more about, at

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Speaker 1: least more than than many of us would would feel

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Speaker 1: that way. And if there's any truth to this, it

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Speaker 1: would make traveling to a foreign land with a great

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Speaker 1: history a different kind of experience I think like it

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Speaker 1: would be. You know, you might also discover things that

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Speaker 1: are actively relevant in the world. I know that the

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Speaker 1: Romans generally had a respect for antiquity when it came

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Speaker 1: to religious traditions. Uh, though, I'd be interested to hear

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Speaker 1: from listeners with expertise and ancient Roman culture and religion

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Speaker 1: to find out what they think about this. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is a great point, Yeah, that perhaps the Romans traveled more, um,

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Speaker 1: with kind of a spiritual mindset, you know, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to a religious one. Um. I you know, as as

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Speaker 1: a traveler who who does like to go to to

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Speaker 1: religious sides. I mean, I always think it is kind

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Speaker 1: of an a rewarding exercise to sort of engage in

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Speaker 1: that kind of spiritual mindset, you know, to try to

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Speaker 1: at least to the degree that is culturally appropriate, you know,

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Speaker 1: to to experience it. Uh, almost as if you were

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Speaker 1: a believer, you know what I'm saying. Um, Though, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna you know, obviously it's gonna vary depending on what

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Speaker 1: is what is culturally appropriate, what feels appropriate given given

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Speaker 1: the space. But but yeah, you go to some of

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Speaker 1: these these places and you're engaging with such such history

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Speaker 1: and like the and the level of belief is is

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Speaker 1: tangible because a lot of times you go to a

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Speaker 1: religious side and there are practitioners of the religion. They're

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Speaker 1: maintaining the grounds or the facilities in addition to visiting it,

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Speaker 1: and it it creates this this sacred air that you

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Speaker 1: can't help the breathe in. Yeah, I totally agree. Now,

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Speaker 1: another issue just whether or not it's appropriate and all that,

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Speaker 1: it's also just a question of what to what extent

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Speaker 1: it's possible for you to like get into that alternate mindset.

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Speaker 1: I know it's easier for some people than others, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a wonderful exercise. All right, On that note,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we

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Speaker 1: come back, we will discuss um the work of a

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Speaker 1: Greek author that's that is sometimes pointed to as the

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Speaker 1: world's first travel guide. Than all right, we're back, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: particular note here is a Greek geographer Bassanius, who lived

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Speaker 1: U one Tin through one a d c. And some

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Speaker 1: indeed point to to him as being the world's first

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Speaker 1: travel writer. He wrote a book in the second century

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Speaker 1: titled Hello dos Peregias, or The Description of Greece, and

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Speaker 1: it is essentially a travel guide. Um. I was reading

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Speaker 1: about this in an Atlas Obscura article titled the World's

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Speaker 1: first travel writer was a guy from Ancient Greece by

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Speaker 1: Lauren Young, and she she chats with Maria Pretzler, professor

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Speaker 1: of Ancient History at Swansea University in Wales and the

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Speaker 1: author um of a book about Passonias Passonias travel writing

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Speaker 1: in ancient Greece and uh, the author says that you know,

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Speaker 1: there were smaller guides at the time, but Passonia's book

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Speaker 1: is the largest and the most comprehensive that survives to

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Speaker 1: this day. And also it still works. It's still functions

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Speaker 1: as a travel guide. You know, obviously the world has changed,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of the places and even the landmarks

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Speaker 1: are still there. Interesting now though. The full text can

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Speaker 1: be found online and I invite everyone to go check

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Speaker 1: it out because it's it's very recognizable and travel literature.

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Speaker 1: This is not an example where you're looking at ancient

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Speaker 1: writings and you're having to really, you know, squint a

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Speaker 1: bit and you know, take a few leaps of faith

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Speaker 1: to identify it as as travel writing. No, you read

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Speaker 1: it and it reads more or less like modern travel guides.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I highly recommend when you read it, uh,

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Speaker 1: and make sure that the voice that you hear in

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Speaker 1: your head is tuned to your favorite TV travel guide,

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Speaker 1: maybe Rick Steves or someone, because it's exactly the sort

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Speaker 1: of thing Rick Steves would say, you know, would be

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Speaker 1: like like Passonius is saying, Oh, well, you're gonna you're

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Speaker 1: gonna around this next corner and then you're gonna see

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Speaker 1: the city of such and such, and out here you're

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Speaker 1: gonna see the sea, and well there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: particular legend about this, uh, about a military engagement that

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Speaker 1: happened here. You know, this sort of thing. He's just

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Speaker 1: telling you how you travel from one place to the other.

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Speaker 1: What you're gonna see there, What the historical significance or

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Speaker 1: cultural significance of the place is. I want to know

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Speaker 1: the ancient Greco Roman world's equivalent of the person who

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Speaker 1: like gives the one star Google reviews to all inspiring

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Speaker 1: monuments from the ancient world, you know, like two stars

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Speaker 1: for the Leshan Buddha. Well, I mean maybe I don't

398
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Speaker 1: even think the Romans were doing that on the Colossi

399
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Speaker 1: were the uh like one star coloss I did not

400
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Speaker 1: sing while I was here. That's sort of thing that

401
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 1: was too hot. Bathrooms hard to find. Yeah, as far

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Speaker 1: as I can tell, Passonius wasn't engaging in in any

403
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Speaker 1: of that. But he has indeed often pointed to is

404
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Speaker 1: as this example of like early travel literature and this

405
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 1: idea of modern travel uh in the ancient world. But

406
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Speaker 1: there are also some some other examples that pop up.

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Speaker 1: There's a quote attributed to the semi legendary Chinese philosopher Laozu,

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Speaker 1: the Old Master and the founder of Daoism, who's often

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Speaker 1: depicted as traveling on a water buffalo um in in

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Speaker 1: in art and sculpture, and the quote is a good

411
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Speaker 1: traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving.

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Speaker 1: So he's said to be a sixth century BC figure,

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Speaker 1: that he might have been a fourth century BC historical figure. Again,

414
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Speaker 1: he he takes on this air of semi legendary status

415
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Speaker 1: like you see with a lot of figures from that

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Speaker 1: period in Chinese history. Um though, Uh, what's interesting about

417
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Speaker 1: this is this this this mantra of of traveling with

418
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Speaker 1: no fixed plans and not being intent upon arriving. It

419
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: does certainly get to sort of this this heart of

420
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Speaker 1: travel as the the transformative journey um and and it

421
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: gets into this you know, sort of unmoored sounding notion

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Speaker 1: of travel further removed from the idea of destination travel

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Speaker 1: and perhaps more in common with some of the ideas

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Speaker 1: of hunter gathering. Uh, though even in those traditions a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of strategic thinking was involved. This uh, this,

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Speaker 1: this does feel like a almost a I feel like

427
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Speaker 1: a more modern sense of, you know, just go out

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Speaker 1: and see the world, just be that noble drifter from

429
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Speaker 1: from that film you saw in the fifties, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. This allowed to quote makes me think of

431
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: a poem by ed to St. Vincent Malay, the Unexplorer.

432
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: Do you know this poem? I don't think I do.

433
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: It's great as a short little poem, I can read

434
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: the whole thing. So this was published in ninety two,

435
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: and she writes, there was a road ran past our house,

436
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: too lovely to explore. I asked my mother once. She

437
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: said that if you followed where it led, it brought

438
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: you to the Milkman store. That's why I have not

439
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: traveled more. I think it's a grade encapsulation of the

440
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: sort of the let down feeling of when you have

441
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: when you're a child in the world is full of

442
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: unknown possibility. You have that exploration mindset, and then the

443
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: adult lays on you the instrumental nature of travel. Well,

444
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: that road goes to the place I go to get this.

445
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing too, is that allows you quote

446
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: I think is going to get to the heart of

447
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: what we're going to spend the rest of the podcast

448
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 1: talking about. And that's how our senses engage with travel.

449
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: Because ultimately, if your if your senses are fully engaged,

450
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: if all this sense data is streaming, you know, into

451
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: your nervous system and into your your your brain, this

452
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: is how we often enter this state of of you know,

453
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: being in the moment, of living in the now, of

454
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: just observing and being a part of the stream of things.

455
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: And I think that ultimately, like that's one of the

456
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: really rewarding aspects of travel, and it's we might not

457
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: even focus on it that much. I mean, and to

458
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: a certain extent, especially today, like it helps to have

459
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: a destination in mind, it helps to have a plan

460
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: and you sort of plan everything out and have a

461
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: destination so that you can perhaps feel even accidentally that

462
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: unmoored uh nowness of travel. Yeah. Absolutely, Well, then do

463
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: you want to shift over now? Talked about talk about

464
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: travel in the census. Yeah, let's do it. So, so

465
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: we've went through some examples of what human travel is

466
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: and how long we've been carrying it out and uh

467
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: and we should also stress that travel is maybe not

468
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: for everyone. You certainly encounter people who don't care for

469
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: it or have intense personal or sort of scholarly objections

470
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: to engaging in travel. Ralph Waldo Emerson, for instance, wrote

471
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: traveling as a fool's paradise. Our first journeys discovered to

472
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: us the indifference of places. Um and I guess you

473
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: also say that reflected in such adages as you know,

474
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: wherever you go there you are that sort of thing.

475
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: Um and and I think sometimes that's that's more about

476
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: tramping on unreasonable expectations of travel. But but you you

477
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: also see this this notion elsewhere as well of of

478
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: travel as being a way of of avoiding in our

479
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: local and spiritual endeavors. Um Gandhi said something to this

480
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: effect as well. Oh yeah, well, I mean I can

481
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: certainly see for some people how travel might just be

482
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: a way too busy the mind, you know, just like anything,

483
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: Just like the same way TV could be a way

484
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: too busy the mind. Um. And in that sense that,

485
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: I don't know that that might be a less rewarding

486
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: way to think about it than as opening yourself to

487
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: experiences of novelty and readying yourself for change. Yeah. But

488
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: but then again, even if you're intent is one thing,

489
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: if you're gonna end up getting it's kind of like

490
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: sneaking the you know, the medicine into the jam or something,

491
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: or or you know, grinding up some pulverizing some vegetables

492
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: and sneaking them in, um, you know, to the President's spaghetti,

493
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Um, It's it's like you're if

494
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: you're gonna end up engaging in novelty and engaging the

495
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: senses than than than Ultimately the goal was there. How

496
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: I do want to point out there there are environmental

497
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: and sometimes health objections to travel, and we touched on

498
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: some of those at the beginning, and we we should

499
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, certainly these are not things to dismiss. H. No,

500
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: absolutely not I mean, you can simultaneously acknowledge that there

501
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: might be a lot of great, uh, great reasons to

502
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: appreciate the role of travel and human life, while also understanding,

503
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: you know, uh, maybe maybe we're driving more than we

504
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: should be, maybe we're flying in planes more than we

505
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: should be, and certainly understanding during like a time of pandemic,

506
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of inherent risks to travel

507
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: and if you're going to do it, you need to

508
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: get really serious about finding ways to make it safe. Yeah.

509
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: And of course there's also the point that the travel

510
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: can be um dis Travel itself as an industry can

511
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: be an uh, you know, an economically transformative force, but

512
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: it can also be uh, you can also pose certain

513
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: dangers to uh, to historical sites, to to local culture,

514
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: to the local environment if if it's not carried out

515
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: in just the right way. Yeah. That's another thing I'm

516
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: sure most people listening have probably experienced at some point

517
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: where you you go to a place wanting to experience

518
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: what that place is actually like, and instead, when you

519
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: get there, you find that it has been altered to

520
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: make itself amenable to tourists and visitors like you you know, yeah,

521
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: this this has sadly been the case with for instance,

522
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: to some cave environments where a part of the cave

523
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: ecology is how it is is closed off and then

524
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: if you open it up, UM, you often just I

525
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: mean you you take part of it's it's life away

526
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: from it. But if you want to come back to

527
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the tourism industry, because there there's actually a lot of

528
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: informative material that comes out of that industry, out of

529
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: papers and conferences related to just figuring out, like how

530
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: do people engage UM in a tourist experience? And this

531
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: is where I came across a really what I thought

532
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: to be just a wonderful visual breakdown of how we

533
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: engage with UH environmental stimuli during well, certainly in this

534
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: case during travel, but perhaps to a certain degree just

535
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, in life itself. And this was from Designing

536
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: Tourism Places Understanding the Tourism Experience through Our Senses by

537
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: Kim at All, presented at the two thousand fifteen t

538
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: t r A International Conference. And apparently this particular graphic

539
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: framework of tourism experience creation was adapted from some earlier

540
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: work by by Krishna from and I'm gonna describe it

541
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: here but basically the ideas you start with a very

542
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: environmental stimuli and then that feeds into sensation, vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch,

543
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: appropriate reception, temperature, sense, and pain. And then that's gonna

544
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: all those sensations and hopefully you're not feeling too much

545
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: pain on your your vacation or on your travel, but

546
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: all part of it. Pain makes an experience real, It's true. Yeah,

547
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: I mean generally my in my experience, the first day

548
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: of travel is going to have its share of pains,

549
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: and you just got to be prepared for it. But anyway,

550
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: all those sensations then are going to go through your

551
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: individual filter and then from there they're gonna go to perception.

552
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: And then the perception of those senses is going to

553
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: go through the individual filter again, and it's gonna go

554
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: in a few couple of different directions. It's going to

555
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: go to emotional response, your emotional response to your perception

556
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: of those different senses. It's also going to go to

557
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: a cognitive response to those perceptions of those different senses.

558
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: And then likewise you're going to have an emotional reaction

559
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: to your cognitive responses, and you're also going to have

560
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: a cognitive response to your emotional responses. Um, so you know,

561
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: kind of going in a circle there, and then all

562
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: of that is going to go through the individual filter

563
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: again and feed into attitude, memory, and behavior. Yeah. And

564
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: I think one of the elements that's most relevant to

565
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: us is how travel affects memory. I want to come

566
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: back to that in a moment after we discuss novelty

567
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: a bit. Yeah, novelty, I think is gonna be gonna

568
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: be key year. So, as we've discussed in the show before,

569
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: human didn't evolve for to live in like a solitary

570
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: confinement situation. We evolved to thrive in an environment of change,

571
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: seeking resources, calculating risk, etcetera. And some of these qualities

572
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: have led to our i think our species spirit of exploration.

573
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: But one of the more studied aspects of all of

574
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: this is certainly novelty, because travel, to a very large

575
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: degree comes down to novel that you put yourself in

576
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: a place, an environment, perhaps a culture, that differs from

577
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: what you deal with every day. Uh And and this

578
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: is where you can feel, you know, this enthralling, exhilarating, overpowering,

579
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: and at times even frightening sensation of novelty. It is

580
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: it is. I don't think it's a stretch at all

581
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: to say this is an altered mental state. Sure, and

582
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: one doesn't achieve this, this particular altered state through the

583
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: consumption of a potion or a mushroom or or the

584
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: via the physical alteration of brain tissue. No, you achieve

585
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: it by traveling from one environment to another, uh, and

586
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: then continuing to be human along the way, and upon

587
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: arrival endearing this altered state. You might often find yourself

588
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: functioning as a sponge, right, soaking up information about your

589
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: travel destination or things along the way, perhaps pouring yourself

590
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: into the local museum or historical site. And if this

591
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: is is this is you? It might be due to

592
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: the role that novelty plays in associative learning. I imagine

593
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: a lot of us have experienced or have been the

594
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: this or in other people, or have been the person

595
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: who comes back from a unique trip and it's just

596
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: rattling off, you know, endless facts about the experience for everyone,

597
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: about this site, they saw this museum, they they they

598
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: visited that sort of thing. Yeah, it becomes there's a

599
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: risk when you travel somewhere that the place you most

600
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: recently traveled becomes your point of comparison for everything, every

601
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: every topic of conversation relates back to the most recent

602
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: vacation you took. Uh, And I, I shamefully will admit

603
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: I've been of that frame of mind before. And I

604
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: think that happens because of because essentially the prominence of

605
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: a travel experience in the memory enables the availability heuristic.

606
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,919
Speaker 1: You know, the the availability heuristic is, uh, the the

607
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: idea where um concepts and memories and ideas that are

608
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: more accessible in memory are overrepresented in our view of

609
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: the world. So if we're looking for comparisons to whatever

610
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: we're talking about, whatever is just most prominent in your

611
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: memory is going to be the thing that's most likely

612
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: to facilitate those comparisons. Now, speaking on memory here that there,

613
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: of course are multiple different forms of memory at work

614
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: in the brain, and different brain states can enhance certain

615
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: forms of memory. Associated learning, which we're gonna be talking

616
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: about here is the ability to learn and remember the

617
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: relationship between unrelated items. And we've we've known about this

618
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: is this particular relationship between novelty and associated learning since

619
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. UH, the idea that novelty can enhance

620
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: associated learning. One key finding it seems stems from from

621
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: twelve though. The University of Toronto's Dr Katherine Duncan used

622
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 1: f m RI I to identify how the brain triggers

623
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: memory states, and she identified a brain ridge and region

624
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: the detects novelty and demonstrated that novelty detection acts like

625
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: a switch, impacting how the brain learns and remembers. Now,

626
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: she's quick to remind everyone, this is not the only switch.

627
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: Memory is complex and there's a lot we still need

628
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: to study and understand, but this is one example where

629
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: it seems like we can we can draw a line

630
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: between one type of of brain state and UH and

631
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: a change in the way we we learn and with

632
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: the way we form new memories. The process here involves

633
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: the dopamine system, which is involved in associative learning. While

634
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: this has been previously suspected, it looks like there was

635
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: some some additional evidence for this that came out in

636
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: February of this year from the Flanders Institute of Biotechnology

637
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: post in the journal Neuron that took a lot closer

638
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: to look at how this work. So working with mice,

639
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: they found that dopamine neurons were activated by new smells,

640
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 1: but not by familiar ones. So this enhanced learning, and

641
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: they were able to stimulate or block dopamine activation in

642
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: familiar settings, then to alter learning in the mice, slowing

643
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: learning down or speeding it up. Now, part of the

644
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: take home here is that we might be able to

645
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: learn better by shaking up our routine. Um, I feel

646
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: like I engage in this, or at least I would

647
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: engage in this in a pretty pandemic world where if I,

648
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: you know, I'd be working on something, and then I

649
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: would I need to change locations. I'd go to a

650
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: different coffee shop or something, you know, somewhere else, some

651
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: new environment where I could work while you know, sort

652
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: of casually observing foot traffic or or actually I also

653
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 1: really enjoy working on my front porch watching people and

654
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: trains go by, that sort of thing. Uh, there's something

655
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: about putting yourself in a novel environment that seems to

656
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: help with with forming these associations. But this particular study

657
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: also sheds on some of what's happening when we engage

658
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: in travel, how and why we record strong new memories,

659
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: and why a vacation may seem in retrospect a fuller

660
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: example of life than our day to day yeah, I mean,

661
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: so there are multiple things here. I think we've touched

662
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: on the podcast before, at least the anecdotal evidence that

663
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: people seem to find that on a vacation or during

664
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: some kind of travel or major change to their day

665
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: to day routine, it's easier to establish new habits or

666
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: to change existing habits. It's kind of an interesting thing

667
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: like people don't usually think of, like the vacation is

668
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: a good time to start a diet, but it might

669
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: actually work. Oh yeah, yeah, if I've seen this pointed

670
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: out before, like if you if you want to change

671
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: up your your schedule, start doing it on vacation and

672
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: in a new location. Yeah. And I think that so

673
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: this relates to memory obviously, and and the idea of

674
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: associate of learning is very much based in memory. But

675
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: another thing about memory that this makes me think of

676
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: is we've talked previously on the show about I believe

677
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: it was the neuroscientist David Eagleman who had pointed out

678
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: this research about the different perception of time in the

679
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: moment versus in retrospect and how that relates to novelty.

680
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: And the idea was that in the moment experiences that

681
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: our novel tend to go by really fast. They feel

682
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: like they're happening really fast, and then they're over. And

683
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: you probably know this from experience. It seems like, you know,

684
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: your your regular routine day might kind of drag on,

685
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: especially if you're doing something kind of repetitive and boring,

686
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: but your vacation where you're doing a lot of novel

687
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: different stuff just kind of flies by. It feels like

688
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: it's over in an instant. But then once you get

689
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: into the retrospective mindset and you're representing those time periods

690
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: in your memory, suddenly the reverse is true, where the

691
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: experience that's full of novelty feels like it lasted a

692
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: long time and a lot of stuff happened in it.

693
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: It's like it spreads out and expands in your memory,

694
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: while the while the period of sameness where you didn't

695
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: experience a lot of novelty contracts down to a point

696
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: and there's almost nothing to remember about it. Yeah. I mean, ultimately,

697
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: there's nothing like going on vacation to fully engage in

698
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: the weirdness of time. Um in terms of novelty. Uh.

699
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: I think Eagleman might have been the one to refer

700
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: to us as as novelty junkies. Uh. It could be

701
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: misquoting him on that, but I have that that association

702
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 1: is in my head for some reason. Um. I also

703
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: ran across a book titled Satisfaction, in which the author

704
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: Gregory Burns uh points out that even if you don't

705
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: personally like a novelty, if you're the type of person

706
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: who you know, you feel very strongly that you like

707
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: a strict routine, you don't want any novelty thrown in.

708
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: You may not personally like it, but your brain does

709
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: because when we engage in novelty, we kind of go

710
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: into probe mode and to explore mode. Our brains tune

711
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: up to absorb and process the information we're hit with.

712
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: And so I think that's really interesting. It's like, take

713
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: that and think back to this, uh sort of flow

714
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: chart of how we engage with environmental stimuli, you know, um,

715
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: how you know it's going to be that that novel stimuli,

716
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: those novel sensations that are gonna end up sort of

717
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: supercharging this loop of emotional response and cognitive response and

718
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: then feeding into the formation of these associated memories. And

719
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: I think that also helps us better understand two of

720
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: the the the off sided benefits of travel, broadened horizons,

721
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: and self exploration. Well, yeah, this brings us back to

722
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: the anthropological framework that we're talking about earlier. Now that

723
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: was specifically in the context of Christian pilgrimage and not

724
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: travel more broadly, but I think it probably relates to

725
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: things that are going on often, if not always, in

726
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: travel more broadly, which is the the idea that it is. Uh,

727
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: it places you at the threshold. It doesn't necessarily put

728
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: you through it, but it places you at the threshold

729
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: of personal change and transformation. And I think that there's

730
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 1: some relationship here between that cultural observation and the idea

731
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: of what's going on in the brain when we experience

732
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: a lot of novelty that we're sort of primed for

733
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: associated learning that we can form new habits, and the

734
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: formation of new habits. While it doesn't sound all that

735
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: sexy when phrase that way, is the basis of the

736
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: change of the self. All right, Well, on that note,

737
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but when we

738
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk a little bit about

739
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: the idea of travel overload. Than alright, we're back, So, Joe,

740
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: I know you like um Italian horror films. Oh yeah,

741
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 1: have you have you ever seen a little film titled

742
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: Stindall Syndrome. No, I have not seen the whole thing,

743
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: but I have watched the scene that you linked me

744
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: to in it, which involves which involves the character kissing

745
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: a fish on the mouth. And while I've heard that

746
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: the movie is not that great overall, even though I

747
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: do love some Italian horror, uh, this fish kissing scene

748
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 1: is extraordinary. Yeah. This was the film The Stendahl Syndrome

749
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: by Dario Argento of Suspiria of Fame and countless other

750
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: films in which weird stuff stuff happens and people are stabbed. Uh.

751
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: This is very much in the genre of of weird

752
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: stuff happens and people were stabbed, excepted has this this

753
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: weird hook with Stendahl syndrome and which in this In

754
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: the film, you have this character played by Asia Argento

755
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: who experiences this overwhelming sensory experience when she engages with

756
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: fabulous works of art. Um. I believe that she's in

757
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: the movie. She's looking at landscape with the Fall of Icarus,

758
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: and so has this There's this dream like sequence in

759
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: which she falls into the painting and falls into the ocean,

760
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: you know that that Icarus would have plunged into. And

761
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: then yeah, I think it's brogo the elder and uh.

762
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 1: And so she falls into the water and then inexplicitly,

763
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: she kisses a fish. So it's it's it's a it's

764
00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: a It's a noteworthy scene in uh in in in

765
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 1: the film, for sure, but it also does a link

766
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: into this idea of Stendahl syndrome, that is in an actual,

767
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: at least alleged um uh phenomenon that occurs. It's named

768
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: for the French author Stendahl, who wrote such works as

769
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: The Scarlet and Black, and he he originally wrote about

770
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: a case of what we might call extreme travel overload. Uh.

771
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: This was from his book Naples and Florence, a journey

772
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: from Milan to Reggio, and he talks about emerging on

773
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: a on a porch uh and and being seized with

774
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: his fierce palpitation of his heart, feeling like his life

775
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: had just dried up, and then and feeling like it

776
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: was just gonna collapse, like it was just physically overcome

777
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: from having visited a particular site. And this kind of

778
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: this idea that was really sort of drawn out and

779
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: and certainly was given the name Standahl syndrome by an

780
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: Italian psychiatrist Graziella Magarini, who who wrote about this in

781
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: her nine book UH The Stendal Syndrome, which defined it

782
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: is a complex process quote not intellectual, but sensitive and

783
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: easily susceptible to emotions, so essentially a kind of sensory

784
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: overload um and and it can apparently result in a

785
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: number of different symptoms breathlessness, panic attacks, faintness, temporary psychosis,

786
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: even all of this brought on via exposure to great

787
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: works of art, generally the sort of great works of

788
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: art you would find in a museum in a destination

789
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: UH city. Now, I would be shocked if um just

790
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: because of the interesting and sort of romantic nature of

791
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: this syndrome. If it's I don't know, legitimacy or or

792
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: clinical characterization has not been somewhat controversial or questioned at

793
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, that that is my understanding of it.

794
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: I think it's it's one of these ideas that's certainly

795
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: Nazi and um and and appeals to sort of the

796
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: storytelling sensibilities, uh that we have, though at the same time,

797
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, there seemed to be enough stories of it.

798
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 1: I feel like there is a there, there is something

799
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: going on here um which will perhaps unravel here. Now,

800
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: there are other related, uh alleged syndromes as well. One

801
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: for instances Ruben syndrome. UM. This is the name given

802
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: for an erotically charged activity that breaks out after or

803
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: even daring viewings of works by old masters, such as

804
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: Peter Paul Reuben's. So I don't know about that. I've

805
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: never I don't think I've experienced or or witnessed that

806
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: going on anytime I've seen people looking at art in

807
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: an art museum. But who knows, Maybe they're going around

808
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: the corner is Rubens the painter where like just everybody

809
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: is just majorly thick, just like awesome that like everybody's

810
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: got huge butts and they look amazing. Uh. Yeah, I

811
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: think that would be a fair description of of of

812
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: Reuben's work. Um. Yeah, certainly there is a kind of

813
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 1: an erotic charge to it. Uh. Now, where I think

814
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: we really get here into the travel aspects of this

815
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: whole scenario is that there's a version of this and

816
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: more travel centric version uh that is summed up in

817
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: the idea of Jerusalem Centrome, in which tourists have been

818
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: said to experience psychosis while visiting holy sites in the

819
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: city of Jerusalem, and there have been similar accounts related

820
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: to travel to Mecca, holy sites in Spain, etcetera. So

821
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: it's not I don't want to make it sound like

822
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: it's just Jerusalem specific, but the people who came up

823
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: with that term, we're largely looking at data regarding visitors

824
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: to Jerusalem who were there for, you know, essentially out

825
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: of a sense of religious pilgrimage. Again, I think one

826
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: of the big we kind of have to come back

827
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: to that chart and think again about travel and senses,

828
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: you know, like imagine we can you don't even have

829
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: to imagine. A lot of us can think back on

830
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: examples where we ourselves travel old somewhere and got to

831
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: see a work of art or particular site something that

832
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: that was indeed the destination, and and you you build

833
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: it up in your mind, right, you have a lot

834
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: of reasons to to want to experience it, cultural or

835
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: maybe perhaps it has to do with with your political

836
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: sensibilities or your overall worldview, like you really need to

837
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: see this thing and connect with it and witness it.

838
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: On top of that, sometimes you encounter a work of

839
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: art and you realize, oh, I had no idea it

840
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: was that small or um or or perhaps the lighting

841
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: is weird and it doesn't actually come off as well

842
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: in person. I feel like I had that situation with

843
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: Buckland's UM The Island of of of Death um, the

844
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: you know where you have the weird trees and it's

845
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: this uh, this very eihlivedad. I'm sorry, that's the name

846
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: of the painting UM And I think there are a

847
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: few different versions of it as very evocative painting. But

848
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: when I saw it, I think at the matter, I

849
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: saw a version of it, and that there was something

850
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: about the way it was lid and the way that

851
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: the dark aspects of the painting came off like. I

852
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: didn't find it displeasurable and an experience. On the other hand,

853
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: there are plenty of other works that you just don't

854
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: get the scale unless you were there in front. I've

855
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: had both of those experiences looking at art. I've I've

856
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: seen things that I've seen before and like digitally represented.

857
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: When I saw them in person, I found them disappointing,

858
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: and I've and I've had it on the other end.

859
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: On the other end, one that really stuck with me

860
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: where was in the louver The paintings of Eugene Delacroix,

861
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: the French painter, who I had seen some of his

862
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: works before, just like you know, images on the Internet,

863
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: and they never really stood out to me, but for

864
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: some reason when I saw them in person and I

865
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: was like, wow, I couldn't stop looking at him. Oh yeah.

866
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: I feel this way about the works of Dolly, for example.

867
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: I feel like his his work is his is oftentimes

868
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: best experienced large scale, though he has of course some

869
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: works that are actually smaller than you expect. Um. Likewise,

870
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: one of my favorite painters is Irving Norman, and he

871
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: often painted these very large pieces, and it's just something

872
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: about being there with it. And likewise, when we're dealing

873
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: with with other aspects of travel, like you think of

874
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: things like the Grand Canyon, like I've talked on the

875
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: show before about like seeing the being there at the

876
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: Grand Canyon is just uh, it's it's an experience that

877
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: that cannot be um, you know, properly housed and just

878
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: you know, looking at a picture of reading about it,

879
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: Like there's the experience of being in a place of

880
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,799
Speaker 1: of of of taking it in and and just being

881
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: a part of that environment or in the case of

882
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: historically significant locations temple cities, etcetera, like to actually be

883
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: there for this place to suddenly be physically real. You know,

884
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: I can I can see how that could be overpowering

885
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: to the senses because it is engaging the senses and

886
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: your UH in your your, your your, your cognitive and

887
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: your emotional processes UH to such a high level you.

888
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: For me, that connects to a feeling that I've often

889
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: had throughout my life, and I've tried to explain to

890
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 1: other people, and I think I have just failed to

891
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: adequately communicated. Maybe I'm about to fail again. But it's

892
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: this peculiar emotion that I associate primarily with two different activities.

893
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: One of them is successfully following instructions to UH to

894
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 1: accomplish a mechanical task such as like repairing an object

895
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: that I have no previous knowledge about how to fix,

896
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: and the other is arriving successfully at a location that

897
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: I've read about before. Both times, I have this experience

898
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: of of sudden, overwhelming kind of rectitude with the universe,

899
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: Like I feel like, ah, the external world is real,

900
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: if that makes any sense at all. It's it's a

901
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: powerful emotion in the moment. Uh. And I don't know

902
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 1: if this is something that other people really experience, but

903
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: it's something that's hugely operative in my end and in

904
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: my life. No, I think I've I've I've experienced something

905
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: like this as well. I mean, it's it's kind of

906
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,479
Speaker 1: like the on one level of the manifestation of the

907
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: inner world, you know, research becomes real, and on the

908
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: other hand, like this is what this is one of

909
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: the things that we have evolved to do. You know,

910
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: it's like the finding of things the uh, you know,

911
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: it's like we we you know, we can read about

912
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: these all day and it's satisfying and it's fulfilling. But

913
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: to actually you know, hit the ground and and actually

914
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: you know, find a particular location or thing like that

915
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: that engages us on another level and engages the full

916
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: capabilities of our senses. Now, if you're if you're wondering,

917
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: Okay Stindall syndrome, Jerusalem syndrome, should I be worried about

918
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: my senses being overloaded? Uh? The next time I'm I'm

919
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 1: able to travel, I would say, based on the information

920
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: we're looking at here. Uh, you know, I would not

921
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: freak out about this basically, pre existing psychological conditions seem

922
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: to be a major factor in most of these cases

923
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: of people being overwhelmed by the sights and sounds of travel. Again,

924
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: if we think of travel as an altered mental state,

925
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: and if we factor in potential travel stresses and travel anxiety,

926
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: we can easily see how travel to a given location

927
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: could trigger a slip into an overwhelming mental state. And

928
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: the stress, you know, of course, would would certainly be

929
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: capable of triggering a pre existing condition and causing it

930
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: to flare up. Yeah, I mean, going back to something

931
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, I mean, like stress is a big

932
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 1: part of travel. It's not the part that we tend

933
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: to focus on in our memories because we think about

934
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: all the good things about it, but like, yeah, stress

935
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: is almost always going to be there, and that's going

936
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 1: to be a key factor for exacerbating underlying psychological issues. Yeah.

937
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: And I was looking at a two thou eighteen Columbia

938
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: Universities Mailman School of Public Health study that showed that

939
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: traveling a great deal for work, so like two weeks

940
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 1: or more per month was capable of inducing enhanced depression

941
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: and anxiety. Now, certainly that's business travel, that's not non

942
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: economic travel like we're talking about here. But I think

943
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: it's still underlines like you know, when we when we're traveling, uh,

944
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, we are uh, you know, we are engaging

945
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: in stress. It is a it is ultimately a stressful

946
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: um endeavor, even if you feel like you really have

947
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: a handle on it. There's also you know, interesting research

948
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: along the lines of sleep, and of course sleep has

949
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: an impact on our overall mental stability. I think we've

950
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,280
Speaker 1: talked about the first night effect on the show before

951
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: and which one tends to experience worst sleep on a

952
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: first night in a new location, and studies have shown

953
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: that this seems to be related to enhanced activity in

954
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 1: the default mode network during these nights. So travel for

955
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:43,439
Speaker 1: those seeking the limits of human experience, pain and pleasure indivisible. Yeah,

956
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something to keep in mind. Um, I

957
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: think it ultimately like it just it. I know in

958
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: the past when I've when I've traveled, you know, with

959
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: with my family, I was trying to remind myself that

960
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,879
Speaker 1: that first day of travel is going to it's gonna

961
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: be stressful, it's gonna have they're gonna be some flare ups,

962
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: and you just gotta try and you know, maintain some

963
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: relative level of cool and uh and flow with it. Well,

964
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 1: maybe it's the time that you're directly on route to

965
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: your destination where it's most important to keep the spirit

966
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 1: of Lautsu or of the child and the Saint Vincent

967
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: Malay before having her her mother dash her dreams of

968
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: exploration has have that mindset. Yeah, yeah, indeed, you know,

969
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 1: to to sort of remind yourself that it is about

970
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: the journey, not the arrival. I guess the thing is,

971
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: it's hard to remind yourself of that when you say

972
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: stuck in airports somewhere, like, it's about the journey. Oh,

973
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: I guess I'll have a cent a bun. It's it's

974
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 1: not quite as rewarding. I guess that's about the journey

975
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: of standing in line for coffee. Yeah, so travel again.

976
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: I think it's important to to remind ourselves that it

977
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: is it is an altered state, and it is u

978
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: and and our senses play so heavily into the journey

979
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: and into our experience of the arrival, along with our

980
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: various emotional expectations, you know, bringing it back to the

981
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: present circumstances of the world and and all of the

982
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: stuff going on right now. One thing I think I

983
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: would remind people of is that I think you can get,

984
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, if you if you're feeling this overwhelming desire

985
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: to travel right now, but you're also trying to be

986
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: realistic about all the risks and stuff. I think you

987
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: can get a lot of the benefits of travel just

988
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: with activities that actually do remain relatively close to home.

989
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: You know, even near your house. There were probably places

990
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: you can figure out to go where you can experience

991
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: something novel, but you don't have to travel long distances

992
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: or be amongst crowds. You can stay with you know,

993
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: your household and family members and that kind of thing.

994
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, and and some households. And of course

995
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: I'm speaking to uh, you know, sort of a neighborhood

996
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: environment here, not like a really dense urban environment. But uh,

997
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 1: you know, there are cases where people have are doing

998
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 1: what they can to sort of enhance uh, the you know,

999
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: the travel sensations of just walking around the neighborhood, be

1000
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: it decorating for Halloween or Christmas several months early, um,

1001
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: doing of unique things with your yard or with signage.

1002
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: You know. Uh so I do I do feel like

1003
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: the that that spirit you know, can be found even

1004
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: daring a what is ultimately a challenging time for those

1005
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: who seek novelty. Obviously, we'd love to hear from everyone

1006
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: out there, because we know we have some extensive travelers

1007
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,439
Speaker 1: that listen to our show. We'd love to hear your

1008
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: take on all of this, how your senses are engaged

1009
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: during your travels, has it ever become overwhelming? Uh? That

1010
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and how you're you're you're coping today.

1011
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you would like to check out

1012
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, you even

1013
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: find us wherever you get your podcasts, wherever that happens

1014
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: to be. We just asked that you help us out.

1015
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: Leave us a nice review, leave us some stars, um,

1016
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: subscribe to the show if you haven't already, and of

1017
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: course share the show with friends. Just tell people about

1018
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: the show. That helps us as well. Huge thanks as

1019
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

1020
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1021
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other to suggest a

1022
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: topic for the future, we're just to say hi. You

1023
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

1024
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is production

1025
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1026
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: this is the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1027
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.