WEBVTT - Week in Tech: Dox, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.880 Thanks for tunion to tech Stuff. If you don't recognize 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:05.640 my voice, my name is oz Valoshan, and I'm here 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.840 because the inimitable Jonathan Strickland has passed the baton to 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.000 Karra Price and myself to host tech Stuff. The show 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.920 will remain your home for all things tech, and all 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.200 the old episodes will remain available in this feed. Thanks 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:27.280 for listening. Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from iHeart 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:35.680 Podcasts and Kaleidoscope. I'm Anzaloshan and today co host Kara Price, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.360 and I will bring you three things first. The headlines 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:44.120 this week, including new and scary uses of chatchipt and 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.640 a sobering reminder of the climate impact of data processing. 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.440 On today's Tech Support segment, we have a conversation with 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.800 four or four Media's Joseph Cox about U haul criminals, 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:58.320 and then finally with Thrill to introduce a new segment 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.280 which we lovingly call when did This Become a Thing? 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.479 We go on a wild ride with Cara, which ends 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.600 with a revelation about what it means to be a 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.920 digital native. All of that on this week in Tech. 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:26.960 It's Friday, January seventeenth. Stay with us, Karen Good Afternoon. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.720 I actually wasn't expecting to Good afternoon, Good afternoon, I 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:33.720 actually wasn't expecting to see you this afternoon. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:35.760 Why am I not supposed to be here? 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.800 Well, now you are supposed to be here. I'm glad 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:39.960 you're here, but I actually thought you were supposed to 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:41.160 be in LA this week. 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:44.759 I was actually I was supposed to be on the 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.040 other coast for work, and obviously I wasn't able to go. 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.920 And I think I speak for both of us when 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.040 I say that our hearts really go out to the 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.920 people who were impacted by the fires and who continue 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.680 to be impacted by the fires. And while I'm glad 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:02.720 I'm here, I'm not glad about the circumstances. 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:07.000 No, obviously me neither. But actually what's been going on 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.320 in LA has some interesting text stories around it, and 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:14.160 so I actually, if you'll allow me, wants to go 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.080 first in this week's news roundup. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.040 We will forego the continentass and I will let you go. 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.120 So last week you actually sent me a screenshot of 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:25.239 an Instagram story. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.880 The only way to get you anything from Instagram. You're 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:30.120 not on it, which I love about you. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.440 I'm not I do have the application, I just he. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:33.600 Goes on browser people. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.359 But basically, this Instagram post that you screenshotted for me 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:43.400 was a picture of this raging inferno, and overlaid was 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.800 text that reads, quote, the average AI data center uses 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.200 three hundred thousand gallons of water a day to keep cool, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:55.080 roughly equivalent to water use in one hundred thousand homes. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:03:00.400 Open brackets, NPR, close brackets. Please skip the silly ais, 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.920 the questions to chat GPT, having AI write all of 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.320 your emails. Life needs water, not tech. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.279 Water is the essence of life. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:10.600 To be fair, whata, it is the essence of life. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.800 And it's also the essence of fighting fires in a 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.080 city where droughts are just commonplace. 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.480 Totally, and I was actually pretty compelled by this post 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.959 that you sent me until I dug a little deeper, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.919 say more. This was, of course misinformation. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:28.919 I sent you misinformation. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.119 You sent me misinformation, but I didn't amplify. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.679 This is why I don't listen to news and Instagram stories. 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:41.360 But my first clue was this open brackets, NPR, close brackets, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.240 and that gave me an opportunity. Okay, thank you Watson. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.680 That gave me an opportunity to do some research and 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.080 figure out what the source of this story was, and 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.880 I actually found the original NPR story. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.880 What was the NPR story. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.360 Well, it was published in August twenty twenty two, Oh 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:04.360 my god, and the headline was data center's backbone of 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.440 the digital economy, face water scarcity and climate risk. Now, 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.720 this was published three months before November twenty twenty two, 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.320 which is when chat GPT three entered the world and 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.520 generative AI became something that kind of has entered the 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:22.320 mainstream discourse. But the NPR story makes no mention of it. 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:27.159 The actual quote was quote a mid size data center 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.400 consumes around three hundred thousand gallons of water. Again, no 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.960 mention of quote the average AI data center from the 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.200 Instagram story. The story was really just about regular old 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.279 data centers that were processing Google searches and doing weather 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:46.040 forecasts and helping bitcoin traders making lose fortunes. That wasn't 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:51.040 the only distortion in the non My mind has been 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.800 in the non AI slop that you sent me. It 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.400 is human generated slop. 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.520 It distresses me to know end that we're in, like 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.960 true crises, how easy it it is for people to 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:05.839 get excited about information that seems compelling and not only 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.440 believe it, but share it because it seems so compelling. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.960 I've actually find the truth of this story as interesting 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.400 as the misinformation. So the Instagram story said that these 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.240 three hundred thousand gallons per day of water could otherwise 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.360 serve one hundred thousand US homes per day, it's just 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.640 made up. No, In the NPR story, it's one thousand. 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.280 So that's quite a big difference. As we know, there's 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.560 been this kind of explosion in demand for data centers 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.520 exactly because of AI. The La Times actually reported that 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.200 a single query on a chatbot that uses AI is 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.240 estimated to require at least ten times more electricity than 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.159 a standard search on Google. So there is this spiritual 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.040 truth of the story you shared, which is data centers 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.880 create heat. Heat needs water to cool it down, and 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.600 the explosion in generative of AI is putting a lot 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.680 more strain on data centers. So there is actually weirdly 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:00.599 lot of truth in the story. 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:05.320 But the connection directly between data centers and the fires 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.400 in Los Angeles. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.320 There is no suggestion there is a direct connection, and 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.640 that's primarily because there aren't that many data centers in 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.760 the Los Angeles area. There are a lot of data 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.200 centers in northern California, and there is now actually a 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.320 big program to build more data centers in southern California, 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.000 so this could become kind of a bigger problem. But Cara, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.240 I know, I'm really only allowed one story, but this 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.520 one is sort of very much connected, and it's in 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.159 one of my favorite news sources. Can you guess what 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:33.560 it is? 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:34.599 The Daily Mail? 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:35.360 No? 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.960 I really one of your favorite the New York Posts? 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.200 No? No, no, Yeah, you're embarrassing. Sorry, this is the 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:44.200 Sacramento Bee. 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:45.760 I love the Sacramento Bee. 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.920 Sacramento is a great paper. On December eighteenth, twenty twenty four, 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.080 The Bee ran a prescient op ed by Dean Flores, 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:59.039 a former California State Senator, under the headline California's next 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.719 water war won't concern agriculture. It will be about AI. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.239 Mmmm, so it's not the almonds, it's the AI. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.520 It's the AI is the AI and the almonds, And 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.520 and Flores continues that the struggle for water, of course, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.560 is not a new topic in California. It used to 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:19.360 be farms versus cities, agriculture versus know, urban development, but 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.440 now there's this third great demand on the water supply 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.960 of a drought prone state. There are actually more than 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.600 two hundred and seventy data centers already in California, and 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.600 in California, water consumption from those data centers is in 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.520 the billions of gallons each year and there. 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.040 And Flores points this out in his. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.560 Exactly and says that data centers could double or triple 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.680 their water demand in the next decade in California. And 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.840 I just think what Flora's ended his piece saying was 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.360 this story hasn't yet been written. AI infrastructure is being 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.720 built in real time, so there are opportunities to kind 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.040 of do better when it comes to figuring out how 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:58.960 to to meet this demand. 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.680 Yeah, so I do agree with you, Oz, and I 0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:04.480 think it's important on this show when we cover things 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.120 that can be a little bit paranoia inducing or anxiety provoking, 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.360 for us to talk about technology that really is solving 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.360 a human problem. I have a ton of friends in La. 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:21.119 My sister lives in LA, and they are all using 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.280 this technology called watch Duty. Do you know what watch 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.240 to do? So? Watch Duty is an app that is 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.440 so beta looking that it kind of looks like the 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.600 Oregon Trail. And unfortunately it does look like the Oregon 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.160 Trail as of last week, because it's just like firefire, firefire, horrible, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.600 don't be there, don't do this. But what watch Duty 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.720 is in practice is this free app that shows active fires, 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.920 evacuation zones, and air quality indexes in the LA area. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.920 And it's actually, you know, anecdotally been a lifeline for 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.680 people living there. And it's just this really great act 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.920 of humanity and that it's not selling people data, it's 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.520 not showing you ads. You don't have to log in, 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.000 and it is completely donation based. It's a nonprofit. Well, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.080 you know, I wanted to highlight this because I think 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:14.760 often about disaster capitalism, and this, to me is more 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:16.839 disaster troubleshooting. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.120 Yeah. One of the fundamental interesting things about tech is 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.480 it often does emerge in response to real world problems 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.720 and can help solve them or at least mitigate them. 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.520 It's just what happens a day after, which is often 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.920 where things go wrong. So carry you've already over delivered 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:34.920 by telling me something interesting about the story. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:35.720 Nothing new. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.880 I didn't know about Watch Duty, But what have you 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:40.440 got for me? 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.959 Well, the last decent man on the internet read it. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:51.520 Our old friend served me with something so demented. Just 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.160 just bear with me because this is there's a lot 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.560 of like R two D two in this But there's 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.080 a video that I'm going to show you in a 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:03.080 second that shows this guy who goes by the online 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:09.160 name STS three d. He's created a robot rifle what 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:15.440 that can shoot automatically and he's giving this robot rifle 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.959 directions using chat GPT. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:18.760 Are you serious? 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:20.560 I got it? Did you? Did you know this? 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:21.679 I didn't know this. 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.920 This is okay, So let me let me just show 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:25.480 you this video. 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.079 Oh my god. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.800 Chat gpt, we're under attack from the front left and 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:32.400 front right. 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:33.559 Respond to bording with it. 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:37.000 Oh my god. 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.880 If you need any further assistance, just let me know. 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.400 By the way, that's chat gpt talking back him. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:57.760 One round. There is a rifle following this guy's voice commons. 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.640 Like an automated assault leaptip cheez. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.040 Wow. What did you think when you saw this? 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.560 Well? I thought to myself, Am I going to do 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.840 another story this week where chat gpt is being used 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.640 by individuals to create weapons? 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:10.280 Yes? 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:11.120 Yeah, you know. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.080 When I saw it, I couldn't really wrap my head 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.800 around how it was actually working and how chat GPT's 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.640 API was being used to operate operate. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.480 So I have this friend, you have another friend you 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.160 talk about tech stuff with I knew, oh geez, and 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:29.720 he's straight. 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.840 So I sent this video and he basically said that 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.080 STS three D. The guy in the video is using 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.720 voice to text and is basically feeding that to chat GPT, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:48.160 and then he's running a separate program that can control 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.120 the robot gun's movements, like you know how many degrees 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.120 to move the gun, when to shoot it. And that 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.959 program that he is designed is communicating with chat GPT. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.120 His speaking to check GPT, which is then interpreting his 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:08.400 requests and passing it on to the robot, but presumably 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.080 not in natural language, presumably translating natural language into a 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:12.880 computer command. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.000 That's correct. Okay, that's correct, And that's why he's talking 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.040 to something that sounds like Siri. The other thing that 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.160 I want to mention, of course, is that open Ai 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.600 got wind of this because the video went viral, right 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.520 and they came out and said that what this user 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.040 is doing goes against company policy. There's a very interesting 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.439 loophole that I found accidentally through reading about this on futurism, 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.959 which was actually reported by the intercept last year, which 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:43.920 is that open Ai quietly removed language prohibiting the use 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.880 of its tool for military purposes. And of course this 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.280 makes sense because just last month it was reported that 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:55.720 open ai is launching a partnership with Andrel, the American 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.800 defense company. Yeah, you know, for open Ai to stand 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.000 up and say okay, yes, for an individual user using 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.960 open Ai in this way goes against company policy, but 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.240 quietly in the background take out language opposing the use 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:10.560 of it for military defense. 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.120 I mean it is that, isn't It's like you always 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.200 talk about how things get faster and faster. It took 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:20.360 Google like fifteen years to ten years to abandon their 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.080 don't be evil policy. Yeah, it has taken open Ai 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.880 five minutes to make an exception for military use of 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:27.480 that technology. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.600 Well, they pivoted from a five oh one c to 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:30.880 a private company quickly. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:31.360 There you go. 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.960 Coming up, we'll discuss another reason to hate moving. Stay 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:50.840 with us. So today for our tech support segment, we 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.920 have a story about how cybercrime is meeting good old 0:13:54.960 --> 0:14:00.440 fashioned IRL crime and somehow it all comes together thanks 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:05.200 to well as a lesbian, it's an important company, you haul, 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.680 and we're going to get this story from Joseph Cox, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.600 who's one of the brilliant tech writers at four or 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:10.160 for Media. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.560 Joseph, Welcome, it's great to have you on the show. 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:14.200 Thank you so much for having me. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.400 So you wrote this story in four of for with 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.200 the headline quote violent hackers are using you Haul to 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:22.160 dox targets. 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.920 So when I read this story or saw this headline originally, 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:28.640 I'm sort of like, well, what does you Haul have 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:30.640 to do with doxing and hackers? 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.800 Yeah, and it's not obvious at first, and I don't 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.520 think anybody really thinks of you Haul of being a 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.440 juicy hacking target. But when you take a step back 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.320 and you think about it, people who use you Haul, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.920 they're probably going to give their real phone number because 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.720 obviously they need to pick up the truck and they 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.840 need to organize that. They might give their real address 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.800 as well, because you know, you all needs to verify that, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.800 and maybe they're real payment information because obviously they need 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.080 to pay for the truck as well. So it's actually 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.080 a really good source for accurate information if a hacker 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.760 is trying to reveal somebody's identity and you Haul has 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.240 been hacked multiple times over the years. You know, happened 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.880 in twenty twenty and I think twenty thirteen as well, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.400 and in at least one of those cases it did 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.840 include driver license information. But at the time we didn't 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.560 really have any context of oh, well, why do hackers 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.200 care about you whole? And I think this story shows 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.240 why some people may care about that sort of target. 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.120 So who's doing this and what do we know about them? 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:36.560 So it's predominantly a group or a nebulous network of 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:41.080 people known as comm which is short for community, and 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.160 this is made up of a lot of young hackers 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.760 who take over phone numbers, they break into companies, but 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:49.760 the main thing is that they try to get as 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.280 much data as they can on potential targets. 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:57.600 As a practical matter, Joseph, how are the hackers getting 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:58.880 this information from you Hall? 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:03.680 So they're not not targeting individual you Haul customer accounts. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.680 What they're doing is they're making phishing pages which will 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.520 trick people into handing over passwords, but specifically for you 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.640 Haul employee accounts. 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:14.920 This is like the Sony pictures. 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.400 Heck, yeah, So when the hackers have the loging credentials 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.400 for a you Haul employee, you know, they essentially become 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.640 that employee with all of the sort of access to 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:29.040 information they might have, so they can rifle through customer data. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.840 And this is a constant problem across companies where you 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.040 have it, especially with US and UK telecoms as well. 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.120 These hackers will break into employee accounts so then they 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.520 can look up customer information. 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.520 What do they tend to be going after and who 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:46.640 is the typical victim? 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:51.040 In writing this story, I spoke to somebody who writes 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.480 the tools to steal you haul logins and they told 0:16:55.560 --> 0:17:01.080 me that basically people inside the com use to dox 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:05.919 one another or dos other targets, and they were, you know, 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.679 it sounded like quite surprised the amount of data you 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:09.440 can get in there. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.240 Doxing is when you sort of get somebody's private details 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:14.600 and then publicize them. 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:14.840 Yeah. 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:19.000 Docting is where you will take and find somebody's personal information, 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.560 maybe their physical address, email address, phone number, and then 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.040 maybe some more sensitive data as well, and either using 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.720 that for your own means or publishing it online. Now 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.879 I don't know exactly what a specific member of the 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.120 comm has used this data for, but you can easily 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.159 see it potentially being used for physical violence. Members of 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.800 the com often shoot at each other's houses or hire 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.800 people to do so. They throw bricks through them, they 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:52.800 rob one another armed with hammers or other weapons. And 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.919 I absolutely put the harvesting of this U haul data 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.760 inside that context and that it is being you by 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.040 violent criminal hackers. 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.280 So this is really about being an admin. It's not 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.040 about getting individual information. 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:09.760 Yeah, exactly. 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.640 I kind of feel like a lot of people when 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.160 it comes to Internet privacy, unless they've been like scanned 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.919 in some way themselves. You know, their eyes can glaze 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.119 over a little bit. But in your story, people actually 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:22.600 got shot after being dogsed. 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.119 Yeah. I think people have a pretty old understanding of 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.199 what cybercrime is. They imagine, you know, somebody in a 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.720 hoodie overall, laptop in a dark basement or whatever doing 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:39.200 these sort of abstract, obscure crimes. Cybercrime today's done by 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.840 people who are a lot younger, and they're a lot 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.040 more violent in some cases. If they want to get 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.080 hold of maybe login tokens, you know, the two FA 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.040 tokens to get into an account. Some will even threaten 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.960 to go shoot up some of the's house. And that's 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.000 why I'm so fascinated by this community. Because it's a 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:02.000 complete intersection of digital and physical crime. You know, as 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.640 a crime reporter for more than ten years, I've never 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.720 quite seen as latent an intersection as these guys. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.000 This is the metaverse, but not the one that all 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.080 the investors were hyping. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.760 Yeah, it's the metaverse, but not the very cringe one 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.600 from Mark Zuckerberg. Is unfortunately, the very real way. And 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.120 it's funny you bring up metaverse because actually a lot 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:26.040 of the people that get into this community, they actually 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.879 fall into it through video games such as Minecraft or Roadblocks, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.040 which arguably are the metaverse, and then they end up 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:35.080 in this world of cybercrime. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.359 And do you think there's a part of playing those 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.600 games that kind of like blurs the line between like 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.080 the reality of what they're doing and the games that 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:45.040 they're used to playing. 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.359 Yeah. Absolutely. And when I've spoken to many different members 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.640 of the com Roadblocks and Minecraft keep coming up over 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.760 and over again where even hackers will break into each 0:19:55.760 --> 0:19:59.200 other's Roadblocks accounts to steal, you know, their rare hat 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.240 or their rare eye or something, and eventually that escalates 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.360 into well, there's steal hundreds of thousands of dollars of cryptocurrency, 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:05.760 as well. 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.840 Is there a single story or a single real world 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.840 crime that for you, really throws this into relief for 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.480 the kind of non tech news junkie. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.080 So recently I wrote about something called the Colm World War, 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.040 which is obviously not an entirely serious term. This is 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.000 what members of the comm called it themselves. But there 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:30.600 were a series of robberies, shootings and brickings between different 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.880 rivals inside the como and. 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.080 Before the West Side story of Legs exactly. 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.840 And I would say it's sort of bubbled over out 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 of calm and into the wider public, because I've seen 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.359 videos where Colm will hire people to go throw a 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.679 brick at somebody's house, but they throw it at the 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:51.600 wrong home and then it's just impacted the completely random 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.840 person and now they have a smashed door or smashed 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.960 ring door, camera or whatever. So it is starting to 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.760 bleed over into the world of just ordinary people who 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.000 have no idea why somebody is throwing a brick through 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.120 the window because something happened on roadblocks. 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:06.320 You know. 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.840 Fortunately, if you are a general member of the U 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:14.480 haul using public, you probably don't need to worry about 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:18.040 this in that maybe somebody you know or somebody nearby 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.560 unfortunately becomes a target of calm. You know, that's kind 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:23.280 of impossible to say, and I would just be very 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.600 bad luck. But they do predominantly go and try to 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:30.120 rob people or target people who hold a lot of cryptocurrency. 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.480 They have various tools which can determine, Oh, this person 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.280 has x amount of bitcoin in their coin base account, 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.679 let's go after them. So, I mean, the threat to 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.080 a bitcoin investor is very, very different to a sort 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.199 of ordinary member of the public, and you should be 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:45.720