WEBVTT - How Jacinda Ardern Turned Self-Doubt into a Strength 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.516 Pushkin Hey Slight Changers Maya here. A few weeks ago, 0:00:32.636 --> 0:00:35.196 I was invited to sit down for a conversation with 0:00:35.316 --> 0:00:39.836 former New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Arderne. This event was 0:00:39.876 --> 0:00:43.036 recorded live in San Francisco and was hosted by City 0:00:43.156 --> 0:00:47.276 Arts and Lectures, which hosts long form conversations with everyone 0:00:47.356 --> 0:00:52.116 from Bruce Springsteen to Yuval Noah Harari live on stage 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:55.836 and on their podcast. I wanted to share this conversation 0:00:55.916 --> 0:00:58.756 with you all because the content feels so fitting for 0:00:58.796 --> 0:01:02.396 a slight change of plans. As you'll hear, Jacinda was 0:01:02.396 --> 0:01:06.436 an unlikely politician and took some unusual turns on her 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:09.476 way to becoming the most powerful person in New yaeland 0:01:10.196 --> 0:01:12.116 I also think there's a lot we can learn from 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:15.476 her story, like her approach to conflict and her empathetic 0:01:15.556 --> 0:01:19.636 leadership style. I'm so excited to share this special episode 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:21.916 with all of you. I really hope you enjoy it. 0:01:37.116 --> 0:01:39.956 Welcome to City Arts and Lectures, a season of talks 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:44.876 and on stage conversations with some of the most celebrated writers, artists, 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:48.436 and thinkers of our day, recorded before an audience at 0:01:48.476 --> 0:02:02.956 the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco. Our guest today 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:07.076 is the right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. When she became 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:10.036 Prime Minister of New Zealand at the age of thirty seven, 0:02:10.556 --> 0:02:13.596 Ardren was the youngest female head of government in the world. 0:02:14.276 --> 0:02:19.036 Her tenure coincided with a particularly challenging period, including a 0:02:19.076 --> 0:02:23.516 major mass shooting, the COVID nineteen pandemic, and a volcanic eruption. 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:29.556 Among her notable accomplishments abortion law reform, groundbreaking legislation on 0:02:29.636 --> 0:02:34.036 climate change, and a leadership style marked by empathy. On 0:02:34.156 --> 0:02:37.116 June ninth, twenty twenty five, on the occasion of her 0:02:37.276 --> 0:02:40.596 just published memoir, Arderne came to the Sidney Goldstein Theater 0:02:40.676 --> 0:02:43.636 in San Francisco, where she talked to doctor Maya Shunkar 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:48.516 about her Mormon childhood, her unexpected nomination to office, and 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:53.916 her personal vision for compassionate government leaders. Join us now 0:02:53.956 --> 0:02:56.956 for a conversation with Dame Jacinda Arderne. 0:03:00.236 --> 0:03:11.236 That's what a crowd, What a nice crowd. We are 0:03:11.636 --> 0:03:15.116 so excited to have you here. Decinda in San Francisco. 0:03:15.596 --> 0:03:18.876 She told me I could call Hersinda. We're sort of 0:03:18.876 --> 0:03:24.076 on a first name basis. You've written this beautiful book, 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:29.476 and you talk about, of course the politics of it all, 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:33.396 but you really share a very vulnerable personal story, and 0:03:33.436 --> 0:03:36.076 tonight I want to dig in to some of those 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.796 to share with this crowd. So I'd love to start 0:03:39.836 --> 0:03:44.436 by traveling both back in time and across the globe 0:03:44.436 --> 0:03:47.796 to New Zealand to revisit young Desinda. 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:51.556 This is the moment where I roll out a couch 0:03:51.636 --> 0:03:54.436 and I logged down from my therapy station in front 0:03:54.476 --> 0:03:55.836 of an intimate audience. 0:03:56.196 --> 0:04:02.116 Exactly. I'm curious to hear what kind of values your 0:04:02.156 --> 0:04:03.356 parents instilled in you. 0:04:04.476 --> 0:04:08.116 Well, first of all, I can't see any of you 0:04:08.196 --> 0:04:11.316 at all joined with fright lights, but I just wanted 0:04:11.316 --> 0:04:15.676 to to say cured to Koto Namah nuk Koto, Hello 0:04:16.396 --> 0:04:21.556 to everyone, Thank you for joining us this evening. You 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:26.516 know you're right, it is an intimate book. And I'm 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:28.676 not sure if I knew I was doing that at 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:33.796 the time, but oh well, I was asked a lot 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:39.516 during my time in office, and particularly you know when 0:04:39.556 --> 0:04:42.836 I first entered as an MP. You know, why have 0:04:42.996 --> 0:04:46.156 you chosen politics? And when people ask you that question 0:04:46.756 --> 0:04:49.236 when you're in politics, it's not the way they ask 0:04:49.316 --> 0:04:53.236 you a question if you, for instance, go into psychology, 0:04:53.556 --> 0:04:58.676 or if you go into engineering, there's this question mark 0:04:58.716 --> 0:05:03.436 at the end that's very pointed, why, as if you're 0:05:03.476 --> 0:05:07.156 not of sane mind. And I understand that politics is 0:05:07.196 --> 0:05:10.836 a really a really tough place to be, and so 0:05:10.916 --> 0:05:12.836 when people would ask me, they would often want to 0:05:12.876 --> 0:05:16.316 dig into what is it about you that has made 0:05:16.356 --> 0:05:19.116 you want to go and be in this particular place. 0:05:19.796 --> 0:05:23.396 And as I was writing, there were certain things about 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:26.236 my younger years that I thought, Oh, I'd never really 0:05:26.276 --> 0:05:31.116 thought of that particular thing before. But it is true 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:33.956 that kindness has always been a really important value for me. 0:05:34.236 --> 0:05:36.676 Service has always been a really important value for me, 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:40.236 and there's no question that my parents instilled both of 0:05:40.276 --> 0:05:45.236 those in me. But the idea of the strength of kindness, 0:05:45.276 --> 0:05:50.956 the fact that these two duel character traits can coexist 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:54.796 in a person, despite what people say about the trade 0:05:54.836 --> 0:05:57.956 of kindness, I actually saw in my father as I 0:05:58.076 --> 0:06:02.276 was writing. My father was a policeman for forty years 0:06:02.996 --> 0:06:05.796 and we lived in a really small town called Mudupada 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:10.716 in New Zealand during a period of great economic disruption. 0:06:10.836 --> 0:06:12.396 So there was a lot of poverty in the town 0:06:12.436 --> 0:06:14.876 that we lived in, and I think when the new 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:17.556 policeman rolls into town. I can tell you that does 0:06:17.636 --> 0:06:19.876 not make you popular at school if that person is 0:06:19.876 --> 0:06:25.076 your dad. And I remember really believing though, even as 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:26.836 like a five and six year old, that as soon 0:06:26.876 --> 0:06:29.076 as they got to know my dad, things would get better. 0:06:29.796 --> 0:06:33.596 So he worked on winning over the community. He even 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:35.836 put himself up for the school fear. They used to 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.436 do a little fundraiser down at the primary school where 0:06:38.436 --> 0:06:41.036 they would have a dunking machine. I'm not sure if 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.876 that's a thing here, but in his full uniform in 0:06:43.916 --> 0:06:46.036 the middle of winter, he sat on the end of 0:06:46.076 --> 0:06:50.996 this dunking machine. Everyone got so much joy. 0:06:50.156 --> 0:06:52.076 Plunging him into an ice pool. 0:06:52.516 --> 0:06:56.876 That was one of the realizations I had kindness and strength. 0:06:57.316 --> 0:06:59.556 He embodied both so clearly for me. 0:06:59.796 --> 0:07:03.036 Yeah, you write in the book that he valued listening 0:07:03.436 --> 0:07:05.876 so much, and so you know he wanted to know 0:07:06.036 --> 0:07:09.036 not just what crimes people had committed, but why they 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:12.596 had committed those crimes. Right, you had to understand the psychology. 0:07:12.836 --> 0:07:17.036 Tell me more about what that kind of example meant 0:07:17.036 --> 0:07:17.236 to you. 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:21.916 And I remember, you know, some examples of where he 0:07:21.956 --> 0:07:24.356 would try and redirect me a little bit, where I 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:26.596 had this very black and white, you know, view of 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:30.236 my dad, the policeman. And I know I was proud 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:32.436 of the job that he had because they used to 0:07:32.436 --> 0:07:34.876 make in New Zealand these little t shirts for kids 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.836 that had a little police badge on the corner of them, 0:07:37.836 --> 0:07:39.836 and I know I used to wear mine to school 0:07:40.036 --> 0:07:43.316 a little too often because I was really proud of 0:07:43.356 --> 0:07:47.276 what he did. But I share a story in the 0:07:47.316 --> 0:07:49.676 book about a time when I remember we lived in 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:51.716 the police house, and so in order to get to 0:07:51.716 --> 0:07:56.316 town by a twenty cent lollimix. You that's the kind 0:07:56.316 --> 0:07:59.036 of specificity you can expect in the book, I had 0:07:59.076 --> 0:08:02.836 to I had to cut through because you remember the 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:05.236 little things when you're a kid, the first name and 0:08:05.276 --> 0:08:07.756 the last name of all your school friends. And now 0:08:08.316 --> 0:08:11.276 I can't even remember mindphone number now, but I remember that. 0:08:11.756 --> 0:08:14.796 So I would cut through the police station car park 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:17.796 to get down to town. And one day I was 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:20.116 I was doing that on on my own when I 0:08:20.156 --> 0:08:24.276 saw my dad surrounded by a group of gang members, 0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:28.116 you know, and I was little, but I knew enough 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:30.356 to know that that he was not in a good situation. 0:08:30.436 --> 0:08:34.316 I just remember his hand being out as this group 0:08:34.396 --> 0:08:37.716 circled around him, and I didn't want to be seen, 0:08:37.716 --> 0:08:39.996 but I also couldn't tear my eyes away from the 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:43.316 situation because I was worried about him. But as soon 0:08:43.316 --> 0:08:45.916 as he caught my eye, just told me to move on. 0:08:46.116 --> 0:08:48.836 But it was later that night when I asked him 0:08:48.836 --> 0:08:50.556 about it. You know, I wanted to hear some big 0:08:50.596 --> 0:08:53.636 story about, you know, Dad, did you kung fu chop someone? 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:55.956 You know, did you do something? My dad was not 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:58.996 a tall man either, and so I was amazed that 0:08:59.076 --> 0:09:02.596 he was okay whatever had happened. He was really disappointed, 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:05.156 I could tell by the line of quistioning I had, 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:07.836 and he just said to me to sit here, the 0:09:07.876 --> 0:09:11.556 woods will be the greatest tool I ever have, And 0:09:11.836 --> 0:09:15.516 what a lesson for someone. But that was kind of 0:09:15.556 --> 0:09:19.156 the way that he was. And it was a few 0:09:19.236 --> 0:09:21.756 years later when I was a little older, a little 0:09:21.756 --> 0:09:24.716 more able to understand his job. He was a detective 0:09:24.796 --> 0:09:28.076 by this point, so he was particularly spent a lot 0:09:28.076 --> 0:09:31.716 of time on homicide cases. And I remember our trip 0:09:31.836 --> 0:09:36.276 away for summer holidays was ended abruptly when there was 0:09:36.316 --> 0:09:39.876 a homicide in our local city and we came back 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:42.676 and after a few weeks, I remember him making an arrest, 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:44.956 because I saw his picture on the front page of 0:09:44.956 --> 0:09:48.636 the paper, and I remember his face and he was 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:53.676 taking in the suspect into court, and he just looked 0:09:54.636 --> 0:09:57.516 so sad, And I remember saying to it, but Dad, 0:09:57.596 --> 0:09:58.676 you solved the. 0:09:58.676 --> 0:10:01.156 Crime, you know, why did not the bad guy got 0:10:01.156 --> 0:10:02.916 the bad Why did you? 0:10:03.036 --> 0:10:04.836 Why did you look like that? And then he sat 0:10:04.916 --> 0:10:07.596 down and he told me the story that had led 0:10:07.636 --> 0:10:10.676 up to those circumstances, and how awful it was for everyone, 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:14.476 for everyone, including the family of the person that he 0:10:14.516 --> 0:10:17.876 was arresting. The world was never black and white for 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:20.476 my dad. And what a gift is a child to 0:10:20.516 --> 0:10:22.956 be to be taught that early on. 0:10:23.236 --> 0:10:23.396 Oh. 0:10:23.436 --> 0:10:24.036 Absolutely. 0:10:24.596 --> 0:10:28.196 Another character trait that you expressed somewhat unusually, I would 0:10:28.236 --> 0:10:33.756 say for a young child is the joy of feeling useful. Yes, 0:10:34.756 --> 0:10:37.316 I'm an aunt to six nieces nephews. I wouldn't say 0:10:37.356 --> 0:10:40.996 necessarily that's their most defining trade is desired to be 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:44.436 a super useful kid. They're just having fun and playing 0:10:44.436 --> 0:10:46.756 around and you you talk in your book, it was 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:48.556 such a charming story. I think of being like on 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:51.996 a paper route and there's this like really like nasty 0:10:52.036 --> 0:10:54.156 dog at one of the houses and you're like, nope, 0:10:54.236 --> 0:10:56.196 gotta gotta throw a newspaper over there. 0:10:56.396 --> 0:10:59.276 So yeah, I mean, I don't know whether or not 0:10:59.316 --> 0:11:02.716 there was an example of usefulness or the extreme weight 0:11:02.836 --> 0:11:05.876 of guilt that I felt as a child that if 0:11:05.916 --> 0:11:09.956 I I mean because I was raised woman and so 0:11:09.956 --> 0:11:14.516 so many great characteristics about being raised in a church 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:18.276 that is so centered on service. But one of the 0:11:18.276 --> 0:11:20.876 byproducts of that was I had this idea in my 0:11:20.956 --> 0:11:23.436 head that even when I was doing my pamphlet run 0:11:23.636 --> 0:11:26.756 up Lincoln Street, that if I missed a house, God 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:29.996 was watching. And I don't know what interest God had 0:11:30.196 --> 0:11:33.476 in a supermarket fly being delivered to that particular house, 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:34.276 but it was there. 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:36.516 It was too small, no. 0:11:36.756 --> 0:11:39.516 And so I think I, yes, I was driven by 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:43.396 the idea of being useful, but also the idea that 0:11:43.436 --> 0:11:47.876 I was at all times responsible for just always doing 0:11:47.916 --> 0:11:52.956 the right thing, and so that really it flowed down 0:11:52.996 --> 0:11:56.356 to the most minute minute thing for a while for me. 0:11:56.476 --> 0:12:01.836 Yeaheah, you've written that you never imagine even for a 0:12:01.876 --> 0:12:05.196 second that you had one day become prime minister, and 0:12:06.876 --> 0:12:08.796 you know the political world is hostile. 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:09.116 I don't know. 0:12:09.156 --> 0:12:12.556 You've gotten a memo from the United States recently, we're 0:12:12.596 --> 0:12:15.236 kind of having a tough time, Okay, Now is when 0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:18.236 you pull out my couch for for me to share 0:12:18.956 --> 0:12:31.476 my personal experience everyone. We In large part this is 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:35.036 because you said, you know, you were a very sensitive kid, 0:12:36.396 --> 0:12:40.476 You were empathetic, and so I'm so curious to know, 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:46.636 as someone who cares a lot about society but finds 0:12:46.796 --> 0:12:51.556 the political sphere so unsavory. What when did you have 0:12:51.716 --> 0:12:54.996 that first inkling that it was still going to be 0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:57.836 worth it for you, that you might still want to 0:12:57.996 --> 0:12:59.236 enter that sphere? 0:13:00.076 --> 0:13:04.636 Is such a good question. Worth it? You know? I 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:08.876 think the worth it piece for me, I would just 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:15.036 all a sense of responsibility because I think I've always 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:20.796 I've always seen and still see politics as a place 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:24.556 where you can genuinely make a difference. And this is 0:13:24.196 --> 0:13:27.236 the stretch probably for everyone to hear this right now 0:13:27.356 --> 0:13:32.676 as well. I've never stopped believing that politics is and 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:36.236 should be a noble act of service. I do now, 0:13:36.756 --> 0:13:42.316 and it is. It is We're in a particular period 0:13:42.356 --> 0:13:45.676 in time where that is not what is currently being 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:50.676 embodied by those who have making a difference. I'm putting 0:13:50.756 --> 0:13:53.836 a racist on a noble active service. 0:13:53.956 --> 0:13:54.876 Yeah, Okay, I got it. 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:58.196 And so the worth thing for me that in the 0:13:58.276 --> 0:14:01.756 round has always been there. But in order to be there, 0:14:01.876 --> 0:14:04.876 there's a lot that you have to experience. And I've 0:14:04.876 --> 0:14:07.676 always thought that there's two types of politicians in the world. 0:14:07.716 --> 0:14:11.076 There are those who actually are there because they think 0:14:11.196 --> 0:14:13.636 you can change things, you can fix problems, and that 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:17.556 the rest actually you're you're there in spite of those things. 0:14:17.596 --> 0:14:19.796 And then there are the people who just love the 0:14:19.956 --> 0:14:23.956 cut and thrust. They like the power or the potential 0:14:23.996 --> 0:14:29.636 of power, they like the maneuvering, they like the dark arts. 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:35.396 The majority is that not what you say here. 0:14:38.796 --> 0:14:43.356 It's mostly used in a Harry Potter contact sometimes. 0:14:43.076 --> 0:14:47.916 Well this is some kind of dystopian something so sentimentale. 0:14:48.076 --> 0:14:53.756 The majority of the majority of politicians that I have 0:14:53.956 --> 0:14:57.996 met have actually been in the first category. They have, 0:14:59.756 --> 0:15:03.436 and I would wager there a number in this country 0:15:03.436 --> 0:15:05.596 too who fall in that category. But there's not a 0:15:05.636 --> 0:15:08.476 lot of incentive for those to be the ones that 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:11.796 succeed in spotlighted in the current environment, and there's lots 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:13.796 of reasons we can talk about for that. So the 0:15:13.836 --> 0:15:16.676 moment that I decided it was worth it, I think 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:18.996 I always believed it was worth it, but it just 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:21.756 didn't make it feel easy. This is what I would say. 0:15:21.956 --> 0:15:25.836 Yeah, you've talked about the fact that in your early 0:15:25.916 --> 0:15:29.356 years in parliament, that's when it was really reinforced, reinforced 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:33.236 for you that you weren't willing to change who you were, Right, 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:36.476 you weren't willing to present differently or I thought about it. Yeah, 0:15:36.516 --> 0:15:40.396 So then so what was it that we feel I'm 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:42.756 sure you did. Yeah, there are so many pressure. I mean, 0:15:42.756 --> 0:15:47.356 we've seen women in particular go through the political system 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:53.596 and come out totally manufactured. Right, still died bizarre in 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:55.956 years and I haven't. I don't think it's their fault. 0:15:56.036 --> 0:15:59.556 I think that the external forces shape them in really 0:15:59.676 --> 0:16:05.796 unfortunate ways. So obviously there was some luxury that you had, right, 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:07.476 which is that you didn't have to change who you 0:16:07.476 --> 0:16:09.756 were potentially in your environment. But then you also made 0:16:09.756 --> 0:16:12.956 an active choice not to even if it was mebe 0:16:13.076 --> 0:16:15.556 expedient for you too, That's true, and that was probably 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:18.116 helped by the fact that even so I was Some 0:16:18.156 --> 0:16:20.556 people think I had the relatively short career of being 0:16:20.556 --> 0:16:22.116 a Prime minister for. 0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:26.596 Six years, but I'd actually been in parliament in total 0:16:26.596 --> 0:16:34.436 for fifteen. I came in when I was twelve, and 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:38.876 that nine years in opposition, WHI was being really tough 0:16:38.916 --> 0:16:41.916 because no one goes into politics to sit on the 0:16:41.996 --> 0:16:45.956 sidelines and just chip away and just lob across to 0:16:46.036 --> 0:16:47.996 the other side and tell them all the things they're 0:16:48.036 --> 0:16:50.396 doing wrong. You're there because you want to make a difference. 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:53.596 The nineties in opposition is hard graft, but in a 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:57.356 way it helped me decide what kind of politician I 0:16:57.396 --> 0:17:00.076 wanted to be, and I write about one of the 0:17:00.156 --> 0:17:04.556 moments where I decided that actually, yes, I was thin skinned. 0:17:04.556 --> 0:17:06.796 In the debating chamber was a really hard place to be. 0:17:07.876 --> 0:17:11.756 But there was an experience I had where I was 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:15.716 the opposition spokesperson on child protection issues. It was a 0:17:15.756 --> 0:17:19.356 horrific case in the news of a mother who had 0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:22.476 abused her child, but she claimed that in her defense 0:17:22.516 --> 0:17:24.716 that at some point she'd written to the minister who 0:17:24.796 --> 0:17:26.716 was in charge to tell them that she was worried 0:17:26.756 --> 0:17:30.196 she would do something, and therefore the minister could have 0:17:30.236 --> 0:17:32.796 stopped it. I remember the news outlet coming to me 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:36.716 and saying, we want to interview you about this. What 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:39.636 will you say? And I said, well, I'd say that 0:17:39.676 --> 0:17:42.396 we need to fix this, this and this about our system. 0:17:42.956 --> 0:17:44.796 And they said yes, but will you attack and blame 0:17:44.796 --> 0:17:47.916 the minister? And I said no, because I know a 0:17:47.996 --> 0:17:50.476 minister gets thousands of letters and she can't be held 0:17:50.476 --> 0:17:53.676 personally responsible for what has happened here. I just don't 0:17:53.676 --> 0:17:57.996 think that's right. And they said, well, that's not really 0:17:58.076 --> 0:18:05.356 what we're after, so they didn't interview me at all, 0:18:07.036 --> 0:18:09.116 and so it was really it was just a really 0:18:09.276 --> 0:18:12.276 stark example for me where if I was going to 0:18:12.316 --> 0:18:15.236 engage in a particular solo politics, which for me was 0:18:16.036 --> 0:18:18.596 you know, it was about about the issues, not about 0:18:18.596 --> 0:18:23.676 the personalities, not just blaming another politician every turn, but 0:18:23.876 --> 0:18:27.876 trying to solve problems that that might mean, no, I'm 0:18:27.916 --> 0:18:31.396 not that successful. And I decided I was okay with that, 0:18:32.276 --> 0:18:35.916 and so no, I never saw myself becoming prime minister, 0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:39.116 but I never believed that I would tick the boxes 0:18:39.116 --> 0:18:42.716 for it either. But that was something I made peace with. 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:46.796 Yeah, well, speaking of prime minister, so let's fast forward 0:18:46.956 --> 0:18:53.396 to twenty seventeen. You had a life changing moment, which 0:18:53.436 --> 0:18:56.436 one there were a few that year, was very we're 0:18:56.436 --> 0:18:58.076 going to get to the first one. Okay, Yeah, there's 0:18:58.076 --> 0:19:01.756 a couple down the road, the current leader of the 0:19:01.836 --> 0:19:06.916 leader party tasks you privately and says, look, I'm stepping down. 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:10.436 I want you to taake No, he toys with it. 0:19:10.516 --> 0:19:13.876 He doesn't even say I'm stepping down. It's it's it's 0:19:13.956 --> 0:19:16.796 my it's my birthday. This is such a shallow thing 0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:20.396 to remember, but it was my birthday. 0:19:20.636 --> 0:19:21.596 And didn't even wish you. 0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:25.956 And we get our internal poll numbers and then we're 0:19:25.956 --> 0:19:28.556 in the early we're in the early twenties, and just 0:19:28.596 --> 0:19:31.916 for context, we're twenty points behind the government and the 0:19:31.916 --> 0:19:35.116 election is in seven weeks and that's that's a lot 0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:38.516 of ground to make up. And when we got that poll, 0:19:38.596 --> 0:19:42.836 I was his deputy at the time. He first I 0:19:42.876 --> 0:19:45.996 sent him a text message, you know, chin up, Andrew. 0:19:46.116 --> 0:19:48.316 Everything will be fine. You know, I saw myself as 0:19:48.396 --> 0:19:50.716 number one cheer squad. We just need to get out 0:19:50.716 --> 0:19:53.156 onto the campaign trial. And I get this message back, 0:19:53.996 --> 0:19:58.476 can you come to my office? And even then I thought, oh, 0:19:59.236 --> 0:20:02.236 he's not going to wish me heavy birthday, and so 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:05.636 off I go to his office and he didn't say 0:20:05.636 --> 0:20:08.556 to me, I'm resigning. He said, I don't know if 0:20:08.556 --> 0:20:12.196 I can do it. And I think maybe you should 0:20:12.276 --> 0:20:17.636 do it, And that ruined the rest of my day, 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:21.876 and I immediately went into all of the reason. Can 0:20:21.956 --> 0:20:25.156 you imagine? I thought, voters, you know, seven weeks out 0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:27.396 from an election, you've had the same leader for an 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:31.716 entire term, and then seven weeks out, you know, up 0:20:31.756 --> 0:20:45.636 and resign and put someone else in terrible idea few guys, 0:20:45.756 --> 0:20:51.076 I didn't mean that, and so I walked away from 0:20:51.076 --> 0:20:56.036 that conversation believing I had convinced him. But then a 0:20:56.036 --> 0:21:00.436 week later he came to work and he quit, and 0:21:00.476 --> 0:21:03.916 then he nominated me, And so that was that. 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:08.516 That was the shock and what was going through your 0:21:08.516 --> 0:21:11.196 mind because you know so much of your stories like 0:21:11.436 --> 0:21:15.356 I want person who doesn't want to be prime minister 0:21:15.476 --> 0:21:17.916 to be prime minister, right, that's kind of like the 0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:19.756 psychology around it, like we want someone who is in 0:21:19.876 --> 0:21:22.076 it for not to quote the Bachelor, but for the 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:25.516 right reasons, right, And so I feel like you were 0:21:25.556 --> 0:21:27.476 in it for the right reasons because you really didn't 0:21:27.516 --> 0:21:30.956 want this job. You did not want him to resign. No, 0:21:31.116 --> 0:21:34.196 And so was it again that sense of duty that 0:21:34.236 --> 0:21:35.356 propels you forward. 0:21:35.516 --> 0:21:39.036 Yeah, you know, I talk a lot about imposter syndrome 0:21:39.236 --> 0:21:43.796 and a confidence gap, and naturally the question comes, well, 0:21:43.876 --> 0:21:47.036 if you experience those things, how do you find yourself 0:21:47.076 --> 0:21:49.676 in the position of becoming a member of Parliament, which 0:21:49.716 --> 0:21:52.436 is a fair question, and then becoming Prime Minister, which 0:21:52.516 --> 0:21:55.796 is a very fair question. And the answer I'd always 0:21:55.796 --> 0:21:59.196 give is that the one thing that I would find 0:21:59.276 --> 0:22:04.116 would overtake any self doubt I had was the strength 0:22:04.276 --> 0:22:07.516 and pull of that sense of responsibility, the thing that 0:22:07.556 --> 0:22:11.156 I've had since I was a that if someone needs you, 0:22:11.276 --> 0:22:14.996 or asks you, or really calls upon you, then you 0:22:15.076 --> 0:22:18.236 have a duty to steff up in that moment, even 0:22:18.276 --> 0:22:21.876 if it means doing something that absolutely terrifies you. And 0:22:21.916 --> 0:22:24.956 so I remember very quickly because if I could give 0:22:24.956 --> 0:22:28.836 you a very brief timeline of this traumatic set of events. 0:22:29.756 --> 0:22:32.876 You know, my boss, you know, there'd been some speculation 0:22:33.036 --> 0:22:35.116 because he mused in that week that he had that 0:22:35.196 --> 0:22:39.196 conversation with me. He mused in the media, they'd asked him, 0:22:39.276 --> 0:22:41.796 your POB wasn't really bad. Have you ever thought about resigning? 0:22:42.716 --> 0:22:45.356 And he was such an honest man he said yes. 0:22:46.596 --> 0:22:51.276 And in politics, the moment you voice any doubt, I mean, 0:22:51.556 --> 0:22:55.316 it's you know, the just they come for you, and 0:22:55.356 --> 0:22:58.516 they came for him. So then a week of speculation 0:22:58.596 --> 0:23:02.836 about whether he would stick around started. But I believed 0:23:02.836 --> 0:23:04.996 he was going to stay, and in fact, he got 0:23:04.996 --> 0:23:07.996 off the plane that Tuesday morning and walked through the airport. 0:23:08.356 --> 0:23:10.796 I heard him on the radio. A journalist asked him, 0:23:10.836 --> 0:23:12.636 what are you doing, and he said, I'm staying and 0:23:12.716 --> 0:23:17.836 I thought phoo, And then I got a phone call 0:23:18.916 --> 0:23:23.156 to say, no, he's not. And so within two hours roughly, 0:23:24.036 --> 0:23:26.956 I was down in front of a podium giving my 0:23:27.036 --> 0:23:29.356 first statement as the new leader of the Labor Party 0:23:29.396 --> 0:23:32.876 and candidate to be Prime minister. And so I did 0:23:32.916 --> 0:23:38.756 not do that little hoopy noise, but I do remember thinking, right, 0:23:39.116 --> 0:23:41.196 you know, there had been a period over that week 0:23:41.196 --> 0:23:43.596 where I just allowed myself to think, what if he 0:23:43.636 --> 0:23:46.036 does this, water are you going to do? And so 0:23:46.156 --> 0:23:49.356 the moment he did, I just had to switch. There 0:23:49.396 --> 0:23:51.996 was no room for self doubt, there was too indulgent. 0:23:53.596 --> 0:23:56.796 It just now had to switch to doing the job. 0:23:57.476 --> 0:24:01.156 One of my favorite reflections is that because you had 0:24:01.236 --> 0:24:03.396 such a short time frame, right you were seven weeks 0:24:03.436 --> 0:24:06.716 out from the general election, say that you did not 0:24:06.876 --> 0:24:10.556 have time to respond to with the polling sadder with 0:24:10.636 --> 0:24:13.116 the survey satter with the focus group sadder. But how 0:24:13.156 --> 0:24:15.876 it is you ought to be right? You say, like 0:24:16.076 --> 0:24:18.996 you had no choice but to just be yourself. 0:24:19.156 --> 0:24:19.396 Yeah. 0:24:19.676 --> 0:24:21.676 Yeah, because there's no time for any of that kind 0:24:21.676 --> 0:24:22.156 of prep. 0:24:22.836 --> 0:24:25.596 And I'd seen that happened to leaders before, really great 0:24:25.636 --> 0:24:28.676 people who really knew who they were when they came 0:24:28.676 --> 0:24:30.396