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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Slight Changers Maya here. A few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: I was invited to sit down for a conversation with

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Speaker 1: former New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Arderne. This event was

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Speaker 1: recorded live in San Francisco and was hosted by City

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Speaker 1: Arts and Lectures, which hosts long form conversations with everyone

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Speaker 1: from Bruce Springsteen to Yuval Noah Harari live on stage

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Speaker 1: and on their podcast. I wanted to share this conversation

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Speaker 1: with you all because the content feels so fitting for

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Speaker 1: a slight change of plans. As you'll hear, Jacinda was

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Speaker 1: an unlikely politician and took some unusual turns on her

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Speaker 1: way to becoming the most powerful person in New yaeland

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Speaker 1: I also think there's a lot we can learn from

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Speaker 1: her story, like her approach to conflict and her empathetic

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Speaker 1: leadership style. I'm so excited to share this special episode

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Speaker 1: with all of you. I really hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to City Arts and Lectures, a season of talks

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Speaker 2: and on stage conversations with some of the most celebrated writers, artists,

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Speaker 2: and thinkers of our day, recorded before an audience at

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Speaker 2: the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco. Our guest today

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Speaker 2: is the right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. When she became

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister of New Zealand at the age of thirty seven,

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Speaker 2: Ardren was the youngest female head of government in the world.

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Speaker 2: Her tenure coincided with a particularly challenging period, including a

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Speaker 2: major mass shooting, the COVID nineteen pandemic, and a volcanic eruption.

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Speaker 2: Among her notable accomplishments abortion law reform, groundbreaking legislation on

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Speaker 2: climate change, and a leadership style marked by empathy. On

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Speaker 2: June ninth, twenty twenty five, on the occasion of her

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Speaker 2: just published memoir, Arderne came to the Sidney Goldstein Theater

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Speaker 2: in San Francisco, where she talked to doctor Maya Shunkar

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Speaker 2: about her Mormon childhood, her unexpected nomination to office, and

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Speaker 2: her personal vision for compassionate government leaders. Join us now

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Speaker 2: for a conversation with Dame Jacinda Arderne.

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Speaker 1: That's what a crowd, What a nice crowd. We are

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Speaker 1: so excited to have you here. Decinda in San Francisco.

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Speaker 1: She told me I could call Hersinda. We're sort of

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Speaker 1: on a first name basis. You've written this beautiful book,

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Speaker 1: and you talk about, of course the politics of it all,

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Speaker 1: but you really share a very vulnerable personal story, and

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Speaker 1: tonight I want to dig in to some of those

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Speaker 1: to share with this crowd. So I'd love to start

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Speaker 1: by traveling both back in time and across the globe

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Speaker 1: to New Zealand to revisit young Desinda.

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Speaker 3: This is the moment where I roll out a couch

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Speaker 3: and I logged down from my therapy station in front

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Speaker 3: of an intimate audience.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. I'm curious to hear what kind of values your

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Speaker 1: parents instilled in you.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I can't see any of you

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Speaker 3: at all joined with fright lights, but I just wanted

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Speaker 3: to to say cured to Koto Namah nuk Koto, Hello

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Speaker 3: to everyone, Thank you for joining us this evening. You

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Speaker 3: know you're right, it is an intimate book. And I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure if I knew I was doing that at

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Speaker 3: the time, but oh well, I was asked a lot

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Speaker 3: during my time in office, and particularly you know when

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Speaker 3: I first entered as an MP. You know, why have

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Speaker 3: you chosen politics? And when people ask you that question

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Speaker 3: when you're in politics, it's not the way they ask

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Speaker 3: you a question if you, for instance, go into psychology,

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Speaker 3: or if you go into engineering, there's this question mark

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Speaker 3: at the end that's very pointed, why, as if you're

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Speaker 3: not of sane mind. And I understand that politics is

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Speaker 3: a really a really tough place to be, and so

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Speaker 3: when people would ask me, they would often want to

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Speaker 3: dig into what is it about you that has made

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Speaker 3: you want to go and be in this particular place.

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Speaker 3: And as I was writing, there were certain things about

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Speaker 3: my younger years that I thought, Oh, I'd never really

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Speaker 3: thought of that particular thing before. But it is true

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Speaker 3: that kindness has always been a really important value for me.

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Speaker 3: Service has always been a really important value for me,

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Speaker 3: and there's no question that my parents instilled both of

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Speaker 3: those in me. But the idea of the strength of kindness,

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Speaker 3: the fact that these two duel character traits can coexist

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Speaker 3: in a person, despite what people say about the trade

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Speaker 3: of kindness, I actually saw in my father as I

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Speaker 3: was writing. My father was a policeman for forty years

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Speaker 3: and we lived in a really small town called Mudupada

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand during a period of great economic disruption.

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Speaker 3: So there was a lot of poverty in the town

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Speaker 3: that we lived in, and I think when the new

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Speaker 3: policeman rolls into town. I can tell you that does

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Speaker 3: not make you popular at school if that person is

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Speaker 3: your dad. And I remember really believing though, even as

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Speaker 3: like a five and six year old, that as soon

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Speaker 3: as they got to know my dad, things would get better.

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Speaker 3: So he worked on winning over the community. He even

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Speaker 3: put himself up for the school fear. They used to

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Speaker 3: do a little fundraiser down at the primary school where

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Speaker 3: they would have a dunking machine. I'm not sure if

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Speaker 3: that's a thing here, but in his full uniform in

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Speaker 3: the middle of winter, he sat on the end of

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Speaker 3: this dunking machine. Everyone got so much joy.

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Speaker 1: Plunging him into an ice pool.

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Speaker 3: That was one of the realizations I had kindness and strength.

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Speaker 3: He embodied both so clearly for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you write in the book that he valued listening

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Speaker 1: so much, and so you know he wanted to know

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Speaker 1: not just what crimes people had committed, but why they

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Speaker 1: had committed those crimes. Right, you had to understand the psychology.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about what that kind of example meant

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 3: And I remember, you know, some examples of where he

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Speaker 3: would try and redirect me a little bit, where I

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Speaker 3: had this very black and white, you know, view of

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Speaker 3: my dad, the policeman. And I know I was proud

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Speaker 3: of the job that he had because they used to

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Speaker 3: make in New Zealand these little t shirts for kids

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Speaker 3: that had a little police badge on the corner of them,

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Speaker 3: and I know I used to wear mine to school

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Speaker 3: a little too often because I was really proud of

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Speaker 3: what he did. But I share a story in the

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Speaker 3: book about a time when I remember we lived in

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Speaker 3: the police house, and so in order to get to

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Speaker 3: town by a twenty cent lollimix. You that's the kind

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Speaker 3: of specificity you can expect in the book, I had

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Speaker 3: to I had to cut through because you remember the

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Speaker 3: little things when you're a kid, the first name and

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Speaker 3: the last name of all your school friends. And now

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Speaker 3: I can't even remember mindphone number now, but I remember that.

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Speaker 3: So I would cut through the police station car park

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Speaker 3: to get down to town. And one day I was

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Speaker 3: I was doing that on on my own when I

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Speaker 3: saw my dad surrounded by a group of gang members,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I was little, but I knew enough

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Speaker 3: to know that that he was not in a good situation.

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Speaker 3: I just remember his hand being out as this group

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Speaker 3: circled around him, and I didn't want to be seen,

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Speaker 3: but I also couldn't tear my eyes away from the

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Speaker 3: situation because I was worried about him. But as soon

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Speaker 3: as he caught my eye, just told me to move on.

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Speaker 3: But it was later that night when I asked him

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Speaker 3: about it. You know, I wanted to hear some big

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Speaker 3: story about, you know, Dad, did you kung fu chop someone?

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Speaker 3: You know, did you do something? My dad was not

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Speaker 3: a tall man either, and so I was amazed that

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Speaker 3: he was okay whatever had happened. He was really disappointed,

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Speaker 3: I could tell by the line of quistioning I had,

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Speaker 3: and he just said to me to sit here, the

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Speaker 3: woods will be the greatest tool I ever have, And

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Speaker 3: what a lesson for someone. But that was kind of

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Speaker 3: the way that he was. And it was a few

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Speaker 3: years later when I was a little older, a little

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Speaker 3: more able to understand his job. He was a detective

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Speaker 3: by this point, so he was particularly spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time on homicide cases. And I remember our trip

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Speaker 3: away for summer holidays was ended abruptly when there was

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Speaker 3: a homicide in our local city and we came back

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Speaker 3: and after a few weeks, I remember him making an arrest,

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Speaker 3: because I saw his picture on the front page of

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Speaker 3: the paper, and I remember his face and he was

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Speaker 3: taking in the suspect into court, and he just looked

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Speaker 3: so sad, And I remember saying to it, but Dad,

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Speaker 3: you solved the.

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Speaker 1: Crime, you know, why did not the bad guy got

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Speaker 1: the bad Why did you?

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Speaker 3: Why did you look like that? And then he sat

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Speaker 3: down and he told me the story that had led

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Speaker 3: up to those circumstances, and how awful it was for everyone,

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Speaker 3: for everyone, including the family of the person that he

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Speaker 3: was arresting. The world was never black and white for

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Speaker 3: my dad. And what a gift is a child to

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Speaker 3: be to be taught that early on.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Another character trait that you expressed somewhat unusually, I would

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Speaker 1: say for a young child is the joy of feeling useful. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm an aunt to six nieces nephews. I wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: necessarily that's their most defining trade is desired to be

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Speaker 1: a super useful kid. They're just having fun and playing

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Speaker 1: around and you you talk in your book, it was

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Speaker 1: such a charming story. I think of being like on

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Speaker 1: a paper route and there's this like really like nasty

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Speaker 1: dog at one of the houses and you're like, nope,

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Speaker 1: gotta gotta throw a newspaper over there.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I don't know whether or not

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Speaker 3: there was an example of usefulness or the extreme weight

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Speaker 3: of guilt that I felt as a child that if

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Speaker 3: I I mean because I was raised woman and so

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Speaker 3: so many great characteristics about being raised in a church

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Speaker 3: that is so centered on service. But one of the

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Speaker 3: byproducts of that was I had this idea in my

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Speaker 3: head that even when I was doing my pamphlet run

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Speaker 3: up Lincoln Street, that if I missed a house, God

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Speaker 3: was watching. And I don't know what interest God had

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Speaker 3: in a supermarket fly being delivered to that particular house,

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Speaker 3: but it was there.

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Speaker 1: It was too small, no.

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Speaker 3: And so I think I, yes, I was driven by

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Speaker 3: the idea of being useful, but also the idea that

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Speaker 3: I was at all times responsible for just always doing

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Speaker 3: the right thing, and so that really it flowed down

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Speaker 3: to the most minute minute thing for a while for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeaheah, you've written that you never imagine even for a

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Speaker 1: second that you had one day become prime minister, and

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Speaker 1: you know the political world is hostile.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You've gotten a memo from the United States recently, we're

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Speaker 1: kind of having a tough time, Okay, Now is when

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Speaker 1: you pull out my couch for for me to share

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Speaker 1: my personal experience everyone. We In large part this is

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Speaker 1: because you said, you know, you were a very sensitive kid,

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Speaker 1: You were empathetic, and so I'm so curious to know,

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Speaker 1: as someone who cares a lot about society but finds

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Speaker 1: the political sphere so unsavory. What when did you have

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Speaker 1: that first inkling that it was still going to be

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Speaker 1: worth it for you, that you might still want to

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Speaker 1: enter that sphere?

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Speaker 3: Is such a good question. Worth it? You know? I

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Speaker 3: think the worth it piece for me, I would just

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Speaker 3: all a sense of responsibility because I think I've always

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Speaker 3: I've always seen and still see politics as a place

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Speaker 3: where you can genuinely make a difference. And this is

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Speaker 3: the stretch probably for everyone to hear this right now

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Speaker 3: as well. I've never stopped believing that politics is and

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Speaker 3: should be a noble act of service. I do now,

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Speaker 3: and it is. It is We're in a particular period

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Speaker 3: in time where that is not what is currently being

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Speaker 3: embodied by those who have making a difference. I'm putting

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Speaker 3: a racist on a noble active service.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I got it.

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Speaker 3: And so the worth thing for me that in the

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Speaker 3: round has always been there. But in order to be there,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot that you have to experience. And I've

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Speaker 3: always thought that there's two types of politicians in the world.

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Speaker 3: There are those who actually are there because they think

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Speaker 3: you can change things, you can fix problems, and that

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Speaker 3: the rest actually you're you're there in spite of those things.

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Speaker 3: And then there are the people who just love the

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Speaker 3: cut and thrust. They like the power or the potential

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Speaker 3: of power, they like the maneuvering, they like the dark arts.

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Speaker 3: The majority is that not what you say here.

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Speaker 1: It's mostly used in a Harry Potter contact sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Well this is some kind of dystopian something so sentimentale.

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Speaker 3: The majority of the majority of politicians that I have

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Speaker 3: met have actually been in the first category. They have,

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Speaker 3: and I would wager there a number in this country

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Speaker 3: too who fall in that category. But there's not a

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Speaker 3: lot of incentive for those to be the ones that

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Speaker 3: succeed in spotlighted in the current environment, and there's lots

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Speaker 3: of reasons we can talk about for that. So the

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Speaker 3: moment that I decided it was worth it, I think

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Speaker 3: I always believed it was worth it, but it just

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Speaker 3: didn't make it feel easy. This is what I would say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've talked about the fact that in your early

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Speaker 1: years in parliament, that's when it was really reinforced, reinforced

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Speaker 1: for you that you weren't willing to change who you were, Right,

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Speaker 1: you weren't willing to present differently or I thought about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So then so what was it that we feel I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you did. Yeah, there are so many pressure. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've seen women in particular go through the political system

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Speaker 1: and come out totally manufactured. Right, still died bizarre in

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Speaker 1: years and I haven't. I don't think it's their fault.

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Speaker 1: I think that the external forces shape them in really

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Speaker 1: unfortunate ways. So obviously there was some luxury that you had, right,

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Speaker 1: which is that you didn't have to change who you

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Speaker 1: were potentially in your environment. But then you also made

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Speaker 1: an active choice not to even if it was mebe

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Speaker 1: expedient for you too, That's true, and that was probably

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Speaker 1: helped by the fact that even so I was Some

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Speaker 1: people think I had the relatively short career of being

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Speaker 1: a Prime minister for.

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Speaker 3: Six years, but I'd actually been in parliament in total

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Speaker 3: for fifteen. I came in when I was twelve, and

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Speaker 3: that nine years in opposition, WHI was being really tough

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Speaker 3: because no one goes into politics to sit on the

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Speaker 3: sidelines and just chip away and just lob across to

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Speaker 3: the other side and tell them all the things they're

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Speaker 3: doing wrong. You're there because you want to make a difference.

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Speaker 3: The nineties in opposition is hard graft, but in a

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Speaker 3: way it helped me decide what kind of politician I

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Speaker 3: wanted to be, and I write about one of the

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Speaker 3: moments where I decided that actually, yes, I was thin skinned.

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Speaker 3: In the debating chamber was a really hard place to be.

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Speaker 3: But there was an experience I had where I was

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Speaker 3: the opposition spokesperson on child protection issues. It was a

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Speaker 3: horrific case in the news of a mother who had

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Speaker 3: abused her child, but she claimed that in her defense

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Speaker 3: that at some point she'd written to the minister who

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Speaker 3: was in charge to tell them that she was worried

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Speaker 3: she would do something, and therefore the minister could have

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Speaker 3: stopped it. I remember the news outlet coming to me

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Speaker 3: and saying, we want to interview you about this. What

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Speaker 3: will you say? And I said, well, I'd say that

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Speaker 3: we need to fix this, this and this about our system.

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Speaker 3: And they said yes, but will you attack and blame

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Speaker 3: the minister? And I said no, because I know a

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Speaker 3: minister gets thousands of letters and she can't be held

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Speaker 3: personally responsible for what has happened here. I just don't

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Speaker 3: think that's right. And they said, well, that's not really

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Speaker 3: what we're after, so they didn't interview me at all,

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Speaker 3: and so it was really it was just a really

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Speaker 3: stark example for me where if I was going to

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Speaker 3: engage in a particular solo politics, which for me was

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Speaker 3: you know, it was about about the issues, not about

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Speaker 3: the personalities, not just blaming another politician every turn, but

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Speaker 3: trying to solve problems that that might mean, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: not that successful. And I decided I was okay with that,

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Speaker 3: and so no, I never saw myself becoming prime minister,

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Speaker 3: but I never believed that I would tick the boxes

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Speaker 3: for it either. But that was something I made peace with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, speaking of prime minister, so let's fast forward

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Speaker 1: to twenty seventeen. You had a life changing moment, which

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Speaker 1: one there were a few that year, was very we're

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Speaker 1: going to get to the first one. Okay, Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: a couple down the road, the current leader of the

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Speaker 1: leader party tasks you privately and says, look, I'm stepping down.

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Speaker 3: I want you to taake No, he toys with it.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't even say I'm stepping down. It's it's it's

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Speaker 3: my it's my birthday. This is such a shallow thing

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Speaker 3: to remember, but it was my birthday.

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Speaker 1: And didn't even wish you.

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Speaker 3: And we get our internal poll numbers and then we're

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Speaker 3: in the early we're in the early twenties, and just

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Speaker 3: for context, we're twenty points behind the government and the

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Speaker 3: election is in seven weeks and that's that's a lot

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Speaker 3: of ground to make up. And when we got that poll,

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Speaker 3: I was his deputy at the time. He first I

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Speaker 3: sent him a text message, you know, chin up, Andrew.

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Speaker 3: Everything will be fine. You know, I saw myself as

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Speaker 3: number one cheer squad. We just need to get out

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Speaker 3: onto the campaign trial. And I get this message back,

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Speaker 3: can you come to my office? And even then I thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: he's not going to wish me heavy birthday, and so

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Speaker 3: off I go to his office and he didn't say

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Speaker 3: to me, I'm resigning. He said, I don't know if

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Speaker 3: I can do it. And I think maybe you should

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Speaker 3: do it, And that ruined the rest of my day,

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Speaker 3: and I immediately went into all of the reason. Can

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Speaker 3: you imagine? I thought, voters, you know, seven weeks out

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Speaker 3: from an election, you've had the same leader for an

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Speaker 3: entire term, and then seven weeks out, you know, up

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Speaker 3: and resign and put someone else in terrible idea few guys,

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Speaker 3: I didn't mean that, and so I walked away from

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Speaker 3: that conversation believing I had convinced him. But then a

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Speaker 3: week later he came to work and he quit, and

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Speaker 3: then he nominated me, And so that was that.

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Speaker 1: That was the shock and what was going through your

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Speaker 1: mind because you know so much of your stories like

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Speaker 1: I want person who doesn't want to be prime minister

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Speaker 1: to be prime minister, right, that's kind of like the

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Speaker 1: psychology around it, like we want someone who is in

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Speaker 1: it for not to quote the Bachelor, but for the

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Speaker 1: right reasons, right, And so I feel like you were

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Speaker 1: in it for the right reasons because you really didn't

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Speaker 1: want this job. You did not want him to resign. No,

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Speaker 1: And so was it again that sense of duty that

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Speaker 1: propels you forward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I talk a lot about imposter syndrome

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Speaker 3: and a confidence gap, and naturally the question comes, well,

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Speaker 3: if you experience those things, how do you find yourself

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Speaker 3: in the position of becoming a member of Parliament, which

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Speaker 3: is a fair question, and then becoming Prime Minister, which

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Speaker 3: is a very fair question. And the answer I'd always

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Speaker 3: give is that the one thing that I would find

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Speaker 3: would overtake any self doubt I had was the strength

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Speaker 3: and pull of that sense of responsibility, the thing that

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Speaker 3: I've had since I was a that if someone needs you,

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Speaker 3: or asks you, or really calls upon you, then you

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Speaker 3: have a duty to steff up in that moment, even

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Speaker 3: if it means doing something that absolutely terrifies you. And

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Speaker 3: so I remember very quickly because if I could give

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Speaker 3: you a very brief timeline of this traumatic set of events.

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Speaker 3: You know, my boss, you know, there'd been some speculation

365
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Speaker 3: because he mused in that week that he had that

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Speaker 3: conversation with me. He mused in the media, they'd asked him,

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Speaker 3: your POB wasn't really bad. Have you ever thought about resigning?

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Speaker 3: And he was such an honest man he said yes.

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Speaker 3: And in politics, the moment you voice any doubt, I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, the just they come for you, and

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Speaker 3: they came for him. So then a week of speculation

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Speaker 3: about whether he would stick around started. But I believed

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Speaker 3: he was going to stay, and in fact, he got

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Speaker 3: off the plane that Tuesday morning and walked through the airport.

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Speaker 3: I heard him on the radio. A journalist asked him,

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Speaker 3: what are you doing, and he said, I'm staying and

377
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Speaker 3: I thought phoo, And then I got a phone call

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Speaker 3: to say, no, he's not. And so within two hours roughly,

379
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Speaker 3: I was down in front of a podium giving my

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Speaker 3: first statement as the new leader of the Labor Party

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Speaker 3: and candidate to be Prime minister. And so I did

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Speaker 3: not do that little hoopy noise, but I do remember thinking, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, there had been a period over that week

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Speaker 3: where I just allowed myself to think, what if he

385
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Speaker 3: does this, water are you going to do? And so

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Speaker 3: the moment he did, I just had to switch. There

387
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Speaker 3: was no room for self doubt, there was too indulgent.

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Speaker 3: It just now had to switch to doing the job.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite reflections is that because you had

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Speaker 1: such a short time frame, right you were seven weeks

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Speaker 1: out from the general election, say that you did not

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Speaker 1: have time to respond to with the polling sadder with

393
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Speaker 1: the survey satter with the focus group sadder. But how

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Speaker 1: it is you ought to be right? You say, like

395
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Speaker 1: you had no choice but to just be yourself.

396
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because there's no time for any of that kind

398
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Speaker 1: of prep.

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Speaker 3: And I'd seen that happened to leaders before, really great

400
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Speaker 3: people who really knew who they were when they came

401
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Speaker 3: into the job. But then there was a push in

402
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Speaker 3: the pull of h you know, branding yourself in a

403
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Speaker 3: particular way. I did benefit from having been in politics

404
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Speaker 3: for a while, but even if you've been in for

405
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Speaker 3: nine years. I think at the time that I became leader,

406
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Speaker 3: like my prefood prime minister numbers were like eight percent,

407
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Speaker 3: So that was probably both a name recognition issue and

408
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Speaker 3: a popularity issue. But with seven weeks you've just got

409
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Speaker 3: to crack on. And I think if anyone had come

410
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Speaker 3: to me and said, right, well, you need to buy

411
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Speaker 3: a suit for starters, I'm not sure I would have

412
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Speaker 3: to be honest. I think I was pretty Did they

413
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Speaker 3: point to do it on my own tomb? Yeah?

414
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Speaker 1: No pants suits?

415
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Speaker 3: I no, I didn't buy. Here I am now in

416
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Speaker 3: my full blown corridor suit. I know I didn't. For

417
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Speaker 3: a long time, I didn't own I didn't own a

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Speaker 3: suit when I was in politics.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, backstage she was asking me should do the heels

420
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Speaker 1: or the flats, and I was like, you're not prime

421
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Speaker 1: minister anymore. Where the flats you disjuoy yourself. You had

422
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Speaker 1: years to wear heels. Okay, you're going to enjoy your feet.

423
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Speaker 1: Are going to be healthy tonight, girl.

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Speaker 3: So okay.

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Speaker 1: So then, because you alluded to how absolutely bonkers twenties,

426
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Speaker 1: I've been told not to swear because of public radio.

427
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Speaker 1: So bonkers is going to be my new worth? Absolutely

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Speaker 1: bonkers twenty seventeen was well, all of this was going

429
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Speaker 1: on in your personal life. You and your husband were

430
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Speaker 1: navigating fertility challenges, right, and you'd been open with the

431
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Speaker 1: public about your desire to one day become a mom,

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Speaker 1: which sort of made it fair game for people to

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Speaker 1: ask you about it.

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Speaker 3: And I had not been open about fertility chilling, yes.

435
00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:13,196
Speaker 1: Just about wanting to be a Mom's about yeah, yeah, I.

436
00:26:13,156 --> 00:26:15,196
Speaker 3: Asked about whether I wanted to be a mom. I figured,

437
00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:19,836
Speaker 3: I figured there's only so much information you should but yeah, yeah, And.

438
00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:22,316
Speaker 1: So so it was kind of fair game to you know,

439
00:26:22,556 --> 00:26:24,036
Speaker 1: it was at least a topic they could ask about

440
00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:25,676
Speaker 1: because you had made it made no secret of the

441
00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 1: fact you'd like to be a mom. And you know,

442
00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:32,716
Speaker 1: I've watched some of these YouTube clips of reporters, journalists,

443
00:26:32,796 --> 00:26:38,516
Speaker 1: you know, asking pretty aggressive questions, making bold proclamations about

444
00:26:39,636 --> 00:26:44,556
Speaker 1: what women, you know, ought to tell employers, et cetera,

445
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:47,716
Speaker 1: et cetera. So tell me first of all what kinds

446
00:26:47,716 --> 00:26:50,076
Speaker 1: of questions you received, and then what your response was.

447
00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was you know, that was one

448
00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:58,476
Speaker 3: of the realities of being in public life is these

449
00:26:58,596 --> 00:27:01,596
Speaker 3: always these things going on behind the scenes that you're

450
00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:06,076
Speaker 3: never really talking about. Yeah, And so I remember the

451
00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:10,516
Speaker 3: day after I became lead of the Labor Party, I

452
00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:14,116
Speaker 3: was doing a big round of media and I was

453
00:27:14,156 --> 00:27:16,076
Speaker 3: sitting in the green room ready to do an interview,

454
00:27:16,076 --> 00:27:18,716
Speaker 3: and the day before someone had asked me about my intentions.

455
00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:20,756
Speaker 3: You know, what's going to happen now you wanted to

456
00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:22,676
Speaker 3: be mother and now you're the leader of the Labor Party,

457
00:27:22,676 --> 00:27:25,836
Speaker 3: And I kind of scooted around the question. But in

458
00:27:25,876 --> 00:27:29,556
Speaker 3: this morning TV show they started having a conversation about

459
00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:31,796
Speaker 3: whether or not it was okay to ask me that question,

460
00:27:32,916 --> 00:27:36,636
Speaker 3: and one of the broadcasters on the panel had said, well,

461
00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:39,076
Speaker 3: I think it should be okay to ask any woman

462
00:27:39,156 --> 00:27:42,996
Speaker 3: that question when you employ them. And I was in

463
00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:47,036
Speaker 3: the green room and I still remember that came through

464
00:27:47,036 --> 00:27:50,116
Speaker 3: on the television screen in the corner, spinning around my

465
00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:57,196
Speaker 3: chair and just becoming just ful of rage and brand

466
00:27:57,716 --> 00:28:00,836
Speaker 3: my presecretary, who was there to kind of introduce me

467
00:28:00,876 --> 00:28:04,956
Speaker 3: to New Zealand is the potential new prime minister. I

468
00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:08,356
Speaker 3: could see him his face he just went white and

469
00:28:08,396 --> 00:28:16,436
Speaker 3: he just swent no, no no, And I said, Mike, no,

470
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:22,316
Speaker 3: no no. And next thing we know, I'm on the

471
00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:23,996
Speaker 3: stair and I didn't have a plan. I didn't know

472
00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:27,316
Speaker 3: quite what I was going to do at this point.

473
00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:30,196
Speaker 3: They brought me and I sat down and then went

474
00:28:30,236 --> 00:28:35,156
Speaker 3: straight on air and they introduced this question and I said, look,

475
00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:39,916
Speaker 3: you can ask me that question because I have chosen

476
00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:43,756
Speaker 3: to put that conversation on the table, but.

477
00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:47,756
Speaker 1: You and out came the yeah you did the finger.

478
00:28:48,036 --> 00:28:50,276
Speaker 3: I just you know, I think what happened was in

479
00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:53,556
Speaker 3: that moment all of the times where anyone had ever

480
00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:56,516
Speaker 3: asked me a question that was gender, that anyone asked

481
00:28:56,556 --> 00:29:00,436
Speaker 3: me about my relationships or my clothing, or portrayed me

482
00:29:00,476 --> 00:29:02,796
Speaker 3: in a cartoon as a ring girl in a bikini

483
00:29:02,836 --> 00:29:07,076
Speaker 3: with stilettos or implied I was, you know, tokenistic all

484
00:29:07,116 --> 00:29:09,716
Speaker 3: of those times when I'd never put speck on him

485
00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:11,796
Speaker 3: because I didn't want to be seen as humulus or

486
00:29:11,836 --> 00:29:14,036
Speaker 3: I didn't want to be just seen as someone who

487
00:29:14,116 --> 00:29:17,796
Speaker 3: is calling themselves a victim because they are a woman.

488
00:29:17,956 --> 00:29:21,676
Speaker 3: All those times where I did nothing suddenly turned into

489
00:29:22,676 --> 00:29:27,036
Speaker 3: that you and I really went him. I really went

490
00:29:27,116 --> 00:29:29,636
Speaker 3: him in that moment on behalf of all women.

491
00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:38,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I encourage all you why he was

492
00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:43,076
Speaker 1: going to cry. I encourage you all to fy this

493
00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:45,676
Speaker 1: clip on YouTube. I may or may have not watched

494
00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:48,716
Speaker 1: it many times. It's deeply, deeply gratifying.

495
00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:54,756
Speaker 2: You're listening to Dame Jacinda Ardern, new Zealand's former Prime minister.

496
00:29:55,516 --> 00:29:57,276
Speaker 2: This is City Arts and Lectures.

497
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:01,556
Speaker 1: The anecdote you just shared, I think is reflective of

498
00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:04,796
Speaker 1: a broader trait that you have, which is you had

499
00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 1: a kind of say it like it is throughout and

500
00:30:07,756 --> 00:30:10,636
Speaker 1: even before you became prime minister, you had this attitude.

501
00:30:10,676 --> 00:30:14,676
Speaker 1: I mean there was a press conference where your credibility

502
00:30:14,756 --> 00:30:17,076
Speaker 1: was being questioned right, people were saying or could you

503
00:30:17,196 --> 00:30:21,756
Speaker 1: actually credibly lead you know in New Zealand? And then

504
00:30:21,796 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 1: you're like yeah, dude, they wouldn't put my name. I

505
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,876
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been nominated if this weren't the case. And

506
00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:30,036
Speaker 1: then they said, well, you've kind of made no secret

507
00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:31,676
Speaker 1: of the fact that you don't even really want the job.

508
00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:36,396
Speaker 1: And your response is awesome. You're like, I'm clearly taking

509
00:30:36,436 --> 00:30:39,836
Speaker 1: on like the worst job right now, you know, how

510
00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:42,396
Speaker 1: could you not? And to just hear someone say it

511
00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:44,756
Speaker 1: so matter of factly it was really impressive.

512
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:48,996
Speaker 3: And that I remember walking down to the press conference,

513
00:30:49,036 --> 00:30:52,156
Speaker 3: I mean and walking down and just knowing this is

514
00:30:52,196 --> 00:30:55,356
Speaker 3: make l Brake, that my first press conference was a

515
00:30:55,396 --> 00:30:59,876
Speaker 3: test and if I did not demonstrate absolute confidence in

516
00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:01,756
Speaker 3: my ability to do that job, and I knew what

517
00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:04,476
Speaker 3: would come at me. I was thirty seven. I was

518
00:31:04,516 --> 00:31:07,076
Speaker 3: thirty seven years old, you know, on the grand scheme

519
00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:11,716
Speaker 3: of you know, political years, you know, which kind of

520
00:31:11,796 --> 00:31:15,476
Speaker 3: like dog years. I was still accept the reverse. I

521
00:31:15,556 --> 00:31:18,396
Speaker 3: was still quite young to be taking on a role

522
00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:20,156
Speaker 3: like that, and.

523
00:31:20,076 --> 00:31:22,876
Speaker 1: Having started in politics at fourteen, I mean, really were

524
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:23,316
Speaker 1: a veteran.

525
00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:27,036
Speaker 3: But what I will say is though, as I walk down,

526
00:31:27,236 --> 00:31:30,156
Speaker 3: and this this is a gift. As I walked down,

527
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:32,076
Speaker 3: I did not think that one of the things I

528
00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:33,796
Speaker 3: would have to defend was that I was a woman,

529
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:37,516
Speaker 3: and I did not think that because New Zealand had

530
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:42,756
Speaker 3: elected and had had two previous female prime ministers, and

531
00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:44,916
Speaker 3: so that was I did not feel like burden.

532
00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:50,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what just in that moment though, I

533
00:31:50,236 --> 00:31:52,596
Speaker 1: just wanted to like, what gave you the courage to say,

534
00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:56,076
Speaker 1: I'm clearly taking on like the worst of in politics?

535
00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:57,196
Speaker 3: And I always feel like I have to say it

536
00:31:57,276 --> 00:31:59,116
Speaker 3: was I was taking on the leader of the opposition,

537
00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:01,956
Speaker 3: which is the worst of being a prime minister is amazing. Yeah,

538
00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:06,076
Speaker 3: leader of the opposition is terrible. Yeah, you know, I

539
00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:10,516
Speaker 3: think for me, I thinkrobably the most important point that

540
00:32:10,556 --> 00:32:14,276
Speaker 3: I was trying to make in that moment was that,

541
00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:17,996
Speaker 3: you know, for all of their questioning why you know,

542
00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:20,236
Speaker 3: are you capable of doing this? Can you do this?

543
00:32:20,596 --> 00:32:24,116
Speaker 3: I got the same question about five different ways, and

544
00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:26,716
Speaker 3: in the end I thought, well, I might put it

545
00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:29,276
Speaker 3: back to them. So yes, I gave that answer, but

546
00:32:29,316 --> 00:32:31,116
Speaker 3: I also just said to them, would you like to

547
00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:35,556
Speaker 3: tell me why I can't do this? Because after a

548
00:32:35,556 --> 00:32:39,476
Speaker 3: while I thought this one's probably inching towards a question

549
00:32:39,596 --> 00:32:43,596
Speaker 3: that's about, you know, whether I've had enough experience and

550
00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:46,396
Speaker 3: I've been in politics longer than the last Prime minister

551
00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:52,316
Speaker 3: who had done the job before bil English, yet my

552
00:32:52,516 --> 00:32:55,316
Speaker 3: youth I could see playing out in that line of questioning.

553
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:58,236
Speaker 3: But there was the only way I was going to

554
00:32:58,276 --> 00:33:01,636
Speaker 3: be able to convince anyone was by proving it. I

555
00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:04,356
Speaker 3: felt that from that moment, and so everything became a

556
00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:05,876
Speaker 3: test and approved. Yeah.

557
00:33:05,956 --> 00:33:07,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the reason I asked is I feel like

558
00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:11,356
Speaker 1: sometimes we put poly Tiians through these unfair purity tests

559
00:33:11,436 --> 00:33:14,236
Speaker 1: where you know, they need to take on these jobs

560
00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:15,556
Speaker 1: and they need to love every minute of it and

561
00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:17,236
Speaker 1: the need to relish. But I just like that you

562
00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:19,116
Speaker 1: just basically said, this is really hard, but I feel

563
00:33:19,116 --> 00:33:21,316
Speaker 1: a sense of duty to do it. That's why I'm

564
00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:23,756
Speaker 1: doing it right. That to me, that is actually the

565
00:33:23,796 --> 00:33:29,396
Speaker 1: purest set of intentions. Okay, So a little bit of

566
00:33:29,396 --> 00:33:33,436
Speaker 1: time passes, several weeks and a few days before the

567
00:33:33,556 --> 00:33:35,756
Speaker 1: results of the general election are going to be announced.

568
00:33:35,836 --> 00:33:40,556
Speaker 1: You are in the bathroom of your friend's house. Yes,

569
00:33:40,916 --> 00:33:45,636
Speaker 1: and you're staring down at a pregnancy stick. Yes, because

570
00:33:45,636 --> 00:33:48,876
Speaker 1: you don't have enough on your plate. Yeah, So can

571
00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:52,156
Speaker 1: you just tell me about that totally?

572
00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:54,196
Speaker 3: I really thought about this as well, but I thought,

573
00:33:54,276 --> 00:33:57,276
Speaker 3: you know, where do I start this? Where do I

574
00:33:57,316 --> 00:33:59,836
Speaker 3: start the story? And I thought the first line feels

575
00:33:59,876 --> 00:34:02,436
Speaker 3: really important? Are you really say a lot with the

576
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:09,676
Speaker 3: first line? It was a standard bathroom? So what is

577
00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:12,076
Speaker 3: the most New Zealand way to kind of bring this

578
00:34:12,116 --> 00:34:15,276
Speaker 3: moment that actually was really significant down into this really

579
00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:20,676
Speaker 3: simple thing. It was a bathroom in Tower And that

580
00:34:20,716 --> 00:34:22,876
Speaker 3: little extra laugh you got was a New Zealander who

581
00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:28,076
Speaker 3: knows where Tower is and how unremarkable it can be. So,

582
00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:31,196
Speaker 3: you know, elections are a funny thing in New Zealand.

583
00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:33,196
Speaker 3: It's but like the German system, you don't always know

584
00:34:33,276 --> 00:34:35,476
Speaker 3: the outcome on election night, and that was the case

585
00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:38,596
Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. So we've done really well, we'd lifted

586
00:34:38,596 --> 00:34:41,036
Speaker 3: our vote, but it wasn't clear cut on the night.

587
00:34:41,876 --> 00:34:43,876
Speaker 3: It was going to come down to the decision that

588
00:34:43,916 --> 00:34:47,476
Speaker 3: one minor party made, and so we went into a

589
00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:50,516
Speaker 3: period of negotiations which we're going to take about two weeks,

590
00:34:51,076 --> 00:34:53,556
Speaker 3: and I had no idea which way they were going,

591
00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 3: no idea, And you can imagine the intensity of you

592
00:34:57,836 --> 00:35:00,556
Speaker 3: and a couple of colleagues being in a room across

593
00:35:00,596 --> 00:35:02,836
Speaker 3: the way from the person who's going to decide whether

594
00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:05,756
Speaker 3: you are going to become Prime minister. And I didn't

595
00:35:05,796 --> 00:35:10,116
Speaker 3: know this person well. He was a season politician, but

596
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 3: during the election campaign he had called me a hamburger

597
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:19,476
Speaker 3: without the meat patty, which I assumed was not a compliment.

598
00:35:21,396 --> 00:35:24,876
Speaker 4: You know what, I'm a vegetarian as a vegetarian, and

599
00:35:23,756 --> 00:35:28,796
Speaker 4: I okay, And so I just kept thinking, you know what,

600
00:35:29,156 --> 00:35:31,876
Speaker 4: in these circumstances, am I You know, how do I

601
00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:34,596
Speaker 4: conduct these negotiations? You know?

602
00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:38,956
Speaker 3: I even remember bringing my friends famous jingl over it

603
00:35:39,076 --> 00:35:43,036
Speaker 3: like it's some kind of bakery bribery or something. But

604
00:35:43,196 --> 00:35:46,876
Speaker 3: we are about three days out from when we expect

605
00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:50,356
Speaker 3: these talks or conclude, and I just hadn't been feeling myself.

606
00:35:50,436 --> 00:35:54,316
Speaker 3: I just hadn't and I assumed it was exhaustion and serious.

607
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:57,316
Speaker 3: But my friend worked in healthcare, and she assumed something

608
00:35:57,356 --> 00:36:02,596
Speaker 3: completely different. Now, because I'd had, you know, failed fertility

609
00:36:02,636 --> 00:36:05,236
Speaker 3: tripment and been told that I would not conceive naturally,

610
00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:09,436
Speaker 3: I thought that my view was completely rational, that I

611
00:36:09,476 --> 00:36:15,036
Speaker 3: was just tired. But no, in the middle of those negotiations,

612
00:36:15,116 --> 00:36:18,596
Speaker 3: I found out that I was pregnant, which was really

613
00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:24,836
Speaker 3: bad timing and a lot And I remember, I remember

614
00:36:24,956 --> 00:36:27,836
Speaker 3: so distinctly, as I sat on that, you know, on

615
00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:30,796
Speaker 3: the lid of that toilet, thinking you could not write

616
00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:33,716
Speaker 3: about this, and so I did.

617
00:36:36,356 --> 00:36:39,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was it like sharing the news with your

618
00:36:39,356 --> 00:36:39,956
Speaker 1: husband Clark?

619
00:36:41,756 --> 00:36:45,196
Speaker 3: So yeah, so many emotions, as you can imagine. He

620
00:36:45,476 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 3: was off filming. So he's a broadcaster and he had

621
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:53,356
Speaker 3: a phishing show, which is you know, that's if we

622
00:36:53,516 --> 00:36:55,436
Speaker 3: call it in New Zealand that say, it's pretty tinny

623
00:36:55,836 --> 00:36:59,956
Speaker 3: when you managed to turn your favorite pastime into work.

624
00:37:01,676 --> 00:37:04,116
Speaker 3: So he would go away on ten day long fishing trips,

625
00:37:04,116 --> 00:37:06,236
Speaker 3: film them, put them on TV and call it a job.

626
00:37:07,436 --> 00:37:10,676
Speaker 3: So he was in Australia all of this leadership stuff

627
00:37:10,796 --> 00:37:13,916
Speaker 3: kicked off, and in fact, when I became nominated to

628
00:37:13,916 --> 00:37:15,756
Speaker 3: be leader of the Labor Party, he came up from

629
00:37:15,796 --> 00:37:18,596
Speaker 3: a free dive and the guy in the boat his Aussie.

630
00:37:19,636 --> 00:37:23,236
Speaker 3: Better call your missus mate, she's she's got a promotion.

631
00:37:30,916 --> 00:37:32,716
Speaker 3: I think we He did not find out through the

632
00:37:32,756 --> 00:37:36,436
Speaker 3: news that I was pregnant. I called him. I called

633
00:37:36,516 --> 00:37:42,276
Speaker 3: him and yeah, I told him over FaceTime that what

634
00:37:42,356 --> 00:37:46,476
Speaker 3: we all do? Yeah wow, yeah.

635
00:37:46,116 --> 00:37:51,556
Speaker 1: Okay, all right. So then a few days later, the

636
00:37:51,636 --> 00:37:55,916
Speaker 1: results of the election election, what is it? What is

637
00:37:55,996 --> 00:37:56,396
Speaker 1: that like?

638
00:37:56,716 --> 00:38:03,196
Speaker 3: Well, obviously a spoiler alert, I've become Prime Minister. You know,

639
00:38:03,636 --> 00:38:07,516
Speaker 3: it's something that moment I found out on the same

640
00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:10,556
Speaker 3: time everyone else did when it was announced live on

641
00:38:11,516 --> 00:38:14,636
Speaker 3: the six o'clock news. He broke into the news hour,

642
00:38:14,876 --> 00:38:18,516
Speaker 3: the leader of the party, the small party, and he

643
00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:21,116
Speaker 3: announced his decision. So, yeah, I watched it on the

644
00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:26,556
Speaker 3: news and Clark Clark filmed it, and I'm so glad

645
00:38:26,876 --> 00:38:30,276
Speaker 3: he did because every time it's now part of a

646
00:38:30,396 --> 00:38:33,236
Speaker 3: documentary that has been made, and every time I watched

647
00:38:33,276 --> 00:38:36,436
Speaker 3: that scene, I'm taken right back there to all those emotions,

648
00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:41,996
Speaker 3: which was elation and then just a second later, just

649
00:38:42,076 --> 00:38:47,116
Speaker 3: the weight of it on my shoulders straight away. Yeah, instant.

650
00:38:47,316 --> 00:38:50,196
Speaker 1: There's this very sweet intimate moment where so in the

651
00:38:50,236 --> 00:38:53,676
Speaker 1: documentary Prime Minister, her husband kind of follows her around

652
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:58,676
Speaker 1: the camquorder type thing and she's constantly resisting in the

653
00:38:58,756 --> 00:39:01,556
Speaker 1: videos int she's like, yeah, that's not happening right now.

654
00:39:02,556 --> 00:39:04,676
Speaker 1: But in one moment, he has a video in front

655
00:39:04,676 --> 00:39:09,636
Speaker 1: of you and you're like, so, I'm going to be

656
00:39:09,636 --> 00:39:12,276
Speaker 1: Prime Minister and I'm pregnant.

657
00:39:12,316 --> 00:39:15,236
Speaker 3: Pregnant because it was only obviously three of us that

658
00:39:15,356 --> 00:39:19,116
Speaker 3: knew it. That pay Yeah, my friend Julia whose bathroom

659
00:39:19,156 --> 00:39:20,436
Speaker 3: I found myself.

660
00:39:20,036 --> 00:39:22,476
Speaker 1: And it was a pretty standard back It was a

661
00:39:22,556 --> 00:39:26,636
Speaker 1: standard bick yeah about it, and Clark and I needed

662
00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:30,676
Speaker 1: to keep it that way, and in part because I thought,

663
00:39:31,356 --> 00:39:32,556
Speaker 1: you know, I was thirty seven.

664
00:39:32,596 --> 00:39:38,156
Speaker 3: I was technically a geriatric pregnancy, that's what they call it. Yeah,

665
00:39:38,196 --> 00:39:41,676
Speaker 3: and you know, I was in a pretty stressful situation

666
00:39:41,836 --> 00:39:44,236
Speaker 3: and I just didn't know whether or not I would

667
00:39:44,316 --> 00:39:48,676
Speaker 3: stay pregnant. So for twenty weeks, those first weeks of

668
00:39:48,756 --> 00:39:54,236
Speaker 3: being Prime Minister, through some very aggressive morning sickness. Oh

669
00:39:54,316 --> 00:39:57,236
Speaker 3: my gosh, I hid it. Yeah I heard that I

670
00:39:57,276 --> 00:39:57,836
Speaker 3: was pregnant.

671
00:39:58,036 --> 00:40:02,436
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. I of course want to talk about your

672
00:40:02,436 --> 00:40:05,076
Speaker 1: big policy achievements, but I want to first start by

673
00:40:05,116 --> 00:40:10,636
Speaker 1: talking about your very unique leadership style. Kind of the

674
00:40:10,636 --> 00:40:16,676
Speaker 1: ethos of your leadership is, you know, kindness, empathy, deep listening,

675
00:40:16,876 --> 00:40:21,796
Speaker 1: just like your dad, the policeman did. You almost ran

676
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:24,516
Speaker 1: on that platform right like your Highness is going to

677
00:40:24,556 --> 00:40:28,756
Speaker 1: be what I do. And it shouldn't have been such

678
00:40:28,756 --> 00:40:32,476
Speaker 1: a bold decision, but it was to kind of embody

679
00:40:32,516 --> 00:40:37,036
Speaker 1: that and to say, and especially to be a woman

680
00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:39,796
Speaker 1: who is being kind and feeling like, okay, that's not

681
00:40:39,796 --> 00:40:42,196
Speaker 1: going to cut against my competence, which is typically the

682
00:40:42,236 --> 00:40:43,756
Speaker 1: fear right that we had.

683
00:40:43,876 --> 00:40:47,516
Speaker 3: I remember in that first presse conference thinking, I want

684
00:40:47,516 --> 00:40:50,996
Speaker 3: to break away from the negative, dogmatic space that you

685
00:40:51,116 --> 00:40:55,956
Speaker 3: end up and as an opposition politician, you know, I

686
00:40:55,956 --> 00:40:58,356
Speaker 3: don't know if this is a saying here, but you

687
00:40:58,556 --> 00:41:01,796
Speaker 3: end up you know, you're backing at every passing car.

688
00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:06,116
Speaker 3: You know, just everything is negative. And so I came

689
00:41:06,116 --> 00:41:08,756
Speaker 3: out and said, we are going to run a campaign

690
00:41:08,796 --> 00:41:11,996
Speaker 3: that is wilentlessly positive. But I also wanted to frame

691
00:41:12,076 --> 00:41:15,636
Speaker 3: how we did politics. And I think this I underestimated.

692
00:41:16,556 --> 00:41:19,796
Speaker 3: It matters enormously what you do when you're in politics,

693
00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:22,996
Speaker 3: but it actually also matters how you do it, and

694
00:41:23,036 --> 00:41:25,396
Speaker 3: how you conduct yourself. Is the message that you send

695
00:41:25,516 --> 00:41:29,236
Speaker 3: around where your priorities are. Yeah. So I had seen

696
00:41:29,556 --> 00:41:31,956
Speaker 3: a style of politics that felt to me that didn't

697
00:41:31,956 --> 00:41:34,036
Speaker 3: feel like it had people at the center, and people

698
00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:38,836
Speaker 3: wouldn't feel like it watching them. So the mantra of kindness, yes,

699
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:42,676
Speaker 3: policy what we were going to do. But actually I

700
00:41:42,796 --> 00:41:46,956
Speaker 3: wasn't going to attack another politician's personal life or someone personally.

701
00:41:47,796 --> 00:41:51,556
Speaker 3: I said to our MPs, and you're not going to either, Well,

702
00:41:51,596 --> 00:41:54,516
Speaker 3: we're in office, we're going to try and raise the bar. Now,

703
00:41:54,556 --> 00:41:57,276
Speaker 3: I couldn't guarantee it would stay raised, but I knew

704
00:41:57,276 --> 00:41:59,076
Speaker 3: while I was there that was what I wanted to do.

705
00:41:59,316 --> 00:42:10,516
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, so let's talk about COVID, right, really,

706
00:42:13,076 --> 00:42:17,556
Speaker 1: we have a vote on that. One of the pieces

707
00:42:17,556 --> 00:42:20,356
Speaker 1: of feedback I got from the audience in advance because

708
00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:22,516
Speaker 1: they just haven't talked about the pandemic enough, you know,

709
00:42:22,556 --> 00:42:25,036
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, that's been one of those topics that we

710
00:42:25,076 --> 00:42:32,636
Speaker 1: haven't explored. So you were dealing with so much imperfect information, right, So,

711
00:42:34,436 --> 00:42:37,916
Speaker 1: as someone who wants to make the right decision, is

712
00:42:37,956 --> 00:42:42,996
Speaker 1: trying to weigh pros and cons, is highly empathetic, doesn't

713
00:42:42,996 --> 00:42:46,436
Speaker 1: want to cause harm, how do you even begin to

714
00:42:46,596 --> 00:42:49,876
Speaker 1: craft a response? And I'm talking at the first the

715
00:42:49,916 --> 00:42:55,836
Speaker 1: first outbreak, right, yeah, what is the decision making apparatus

716
00:42:55,876 --> 00:42:56,476
Speaker 1: you even use?

717
00:42:56,636 --> 00:42:59,436
Speaker 3: I mean, the difficult thing was the speed, the speed

718
00:43:00,356 --> 00:43:02,996
Speaker 3: which this was coming at us. You know, I remember

719
00:43:03,036 --> 00:43:07,676
Speaker 3: reading trying to track, even through BBC articles, what was

720
00:43:07,716 --> 00:43:10,356
Speaker 3: happening in Wuhan. You know, we were getting our own information,

721
00:43:10,476 --> 00:43:13,876
Speaker 3: but I read as much international news as I could,

722
00:43:13,916 --> 00:43:16,436
Speaker 3: as much science as I could, to try and understand,

723
00:43:17,156 --> 00:43:20,156
Speaker 3: to understand what we were dealing with. COVID came to

724
00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:22,036
Speaker 3: us later, though, it came to us in February, the

725
00:43:22,076 --> 00:43:26,276
Speaker 3: twenty eighth of February of twenty twenty, so the rest

726
00:43:26,316 --> 00:43:31,236
Speaker 3: of the world was already feeling the effects and it initially, Remember,

727
00:43:31,236 --> 00:43:34,596
Speaker 3: everyone was flattening the curve, that idea that we could

728
00:43:34,636 --> 00:43:37,516
Speaker 3: control it, that it might come in, but you're trying

729
00:43:37,556 --> 00:43:40,276
Speaker 3: to just keep your lumbers low enough that you can

730
00:43:40,356 --> 00:43:45,396
Speaker 3: keep your hospitals sustaining, meeting the demand. And that was

731
00:43:45,436 --> 00:43:49,396
Speaker 3: everyone's grand, grand plan. And then we watched is that

732
00:43:49,516 --> 00:43:53,836
Speaker 3: our value showed us how infectious this illness was. And

733
00:43:53,876 --> 00:43:56,436
Speaker 3: I still remember and I wrote about it because it's

734
00:43:56,436 --> 00:43:59,796
Speaker 3: so stark in my mind. My chief science advisor coming

735
00:43:59,796 --> 00:44:04,636
Speaker 3: in to see me in March and just sliding across

736
00:44:04,676 --> 00:44:07,996
Speaker 3: to me a graph that showed me that we wouldn't

737
00:44:07,996 --> 00:44:11,036
Speaker 3: be able to flatten the curve and if we tried,

738
00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:14,796
Speaker 3: tens of thousands of people would die. And so the

739
00:44:15,076 --> 00:44:19,036
Speaker 3: calculation was very simple for me and very simple for

740
00:44:19,116 --> 00:44:23,076
Speaker 3: all of us that you know, So really in politics

741
00:44:23,116 --> 00:44:25,276
Speaker 3: do you draw a direct line between your decision making

742
00:44:25,316 --> 00:44:28,236
Speaker 3: and someone's mortality, But that was one of them. And

743
00:44:28,276 --> 00:44:31,356
Speaker 3: so that told us that we had to try something

744
00:44:31,476 --> 00:44:35,476
Speaker 3: else and if we failed, we would just simply end

745
00:44:35,516 --> 00:44:38,156
Speaker 3: up where everyone else was already. We had the gift

746
00:44:38,196 --> 00:44:40,556
Speaker 3: of time. We needed to use it. And that was

747
00:44:40,596 --> 00:44:44,436
Speaker 3: how we came to an elimination strategy, simply because I

748
00:44:44,476 --> 00:44:48,676
Speaker 3: didn't want the equivalent of, you know, the casualties of

749
00:44:48,676 --> 00:44:53,396
Speaker 3: a world war for that generation of New Zealanders. Yeah.

750
00:44:53,556 --> 00:44:58,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, you won re election in the middle of the pandemic.

751
00:44:58,196 --> 00:45:00,996
Speaker 1: New Zealand had some of the lowest cases of COVID

752
00:45:01,036 --> 00:45:06,956
Speaker 1: nineteen thanks to border controls and social distancing. As more

753
00:45:07,196 --> 00:45:10,516
Speaker 1: various emerge and lockdowns continue, and of course public sentiment

754
00:45:10,756 --> 00:45:15,556
Speaker 1: changed and frustration grew. Frustration grew worldwide with all of

755
00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:19,396
Speaker 1: the variants, of course, but there were these This is

756
00:45:19,436 --> 00:45:21,636
Speaker 1: the part of the documentary where you know, I, as

757
00:45:21,676 --> 00:45:25,996
Speaker 1: a viewer, just got the most emotional watching the protests

758
00:45:26,036 --> 00:45:29,316
Speaker 1: against lockdowns and vaccine woarves mandays in front of the parliament.

759
00:45:29,396 --> 00:45:29,596
Speaker 3: Yeah.

760
00:45:29,636 --> 00:45:33,036
Speaker 1: Well, lockdowns were reminiscent of January sixth. It's interesting lockdowns

761
00:45:33,076 --> 00:45:37,436
Speaker 1: weren't in use when it happened, and we use them sporadically,

762
00:45:37,596 --> 00:45:40,476
Speaker 1: so we'd a situation news on we didn't have COVID,

763
00:45:40,516 --> 00:45:42,436
Speaker 1: so when a COVID case came in, we would try

764
00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:45,356
Speaker 1: and isolate, you know, what had happened.

765
00:45:44,996 --> 00:45:46,756
Speaker 3: And who might have been in contact with it, so

766
00:45:46,796 --> 00:45:48,876
Speaker 3: that the rest of the country could keep going about

767
00:45:48,916 --> 00:45:52,076
Speaker 3: their lives. But we did have a period that was

768
00:45:52,116 --> 00:45:56,116
Speaker 3: a bit more prolonged for our major city. But by

769
00:45:56,156 --> 00:45:58,236
Speaker 3: the time we had that protest, we were done with them.

770
00:45:58,316 --> 00:46:03,396
Speaker 3: We'd reached ninety percent vaccination. We had required healthcare, education,

771
00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:06,036
Speaker 3: and border workers to be vaccinated, though, and there were

772
00:46:06,036 --> 00:46:10,356
Speaker 3: people who just disagreed with mandates. Stand why that's debated.

773
00:46:10,356 --> 00:46:13,556
Speaker 3: It is a really significant decision to make. But we

774
00:46:13,596 --> 00:46:19,076
Speaker 3: had an occupation that became violent. It lasted several weeks.

775
00:46:19,116 --> 00:46:21,676
Speaker 3: It was at the same time as the blockade in Canada,

776
00:46:21,956 --> 00:46:25,796
Speaker 3: and it was unlike anything I'd seen in New Zealand.

777
00:46:24,996 --> 00:46:28,516
Speaker 3: They hung a noose up on the four Court of

778
00:46:28,556 --> 00:46:32,356
Speaker 3: Parliament that was intended for me, and I remember as

779
00:46:32,396 --> 00:46:36,236
Speaker 3: I looked out on it, thinking and yet all I

780
00:46:36,276 --> 00:46:39,796
Speaker 3: ever wanted to do was just keep people safe, you know,

781
00:46:40,116 --> 00:46:42,716
Speaker 3: save people's lives. But there was a part of me

782
00:46:42,756 --> 00:46:44,836
Speaker 3: that actually recognized that that's what they thought they were

783
00:46:44,836 --> 00:46:48,356
Speaker 3: doing too. They thought vaccines took lives, many of them

784
00:46:48,556 --> 00:46:51,636
Speaker 3: not all, but many, and so even then I could

785
00:46:51,996 --> 00:46:55,116
Speaker 3: see there was some common ground, as much as we

786
00:46:55,236 --> 00:46:58,836
Speaker 3: couldn't talk to each other about it because the disinformation

787
00:46:59,116 --> 00:47:03,956
Speaker 3: was so entrenched. And one reflection I have in this

788
00:47:04,076 --> 00:47:06,756
Speaker 3: environment that we're in now is that one of the

789
00:47:06,796 --> 00:47:10,996
Speaker 3: big challenges we have is our ability to still converse

790
00:47:11,756 --> 00:47:14,196
Speaker 3: and have a starting point in a healthy democracy of

791
00:47:14,636 --> 00:47:19,276
Speaker 3: believing in the same facts as that starting point, identifying

792
00:47:19,316 --> 00:47:23,556
Speaker 3: the same problems. We now are talking past each other

793
00:47:24,636 --> 00:47:28,996
Speaker 3: because of the information environment we're in. Social media did

794
00:47:28,996 --> 00:47:30,676
Speaker 3: not start the problem, but they have a big role

795
00:47:30,676 --> 00:47:34,516
Speaker 3: to play. I believe they are not just postmen. They

796
00:47:34,556 --> 00:47:46,596
Speaker 3: are publishers. And where the publisher comes responsibility. So all

797
00:47:46,636 --> 00:47:49,796
Speaker 3: absolutely as governments, we need to wear the consequences of

798
00:47:49,836 --> 00:47:53,716
Speaker 3: our decisions. I just think every player on the field

799
00:47:53,836 --> 00:47:56,236
Speaker 3: needs to take responsibility for the roles they've.

800
00:47:55,996 --> 00:48:00,916
Speaker 1: Played to Another challenging period was in March of twenty eighteen,

801
00:48:01,236 --> 00:48:04,356
Speaker 1: there is a terrorist attack on masked in Christchurch in

802
00:48:04,436 --> 00:48:08,356
Speaker 1: eastern New Zealand. Fifty one people were killed. It was

803
00:48:08,396 --> 00:48:13,716
Speaker 1: the deadliest mass shooting in New Zealand's history, and within

804
00:48:14,196 --> 00:48:18,716
Speaker 1: weeks you were able to change the country's gun loss.

805
00:48:31,676 --> 00:48:35,116
Speaker 1: We had not done that in this country, despite elementary

806
00:48:35,156 --> 00:48:42,556
Speaker 1: school kids being brutally murdered. So how did you do that?

807
00:48:46,876 --> 00:48:47,476
Speaker 1: Do you tell?

808
00:48:47,836 --> 00:48:48,116
Speaker 4: Yeah?

809
00:48:48,316 --> 00:48:55,236
Speaker 3: I mean March fifteen, you know, was one of the

810
00:48:55,236 --> 00:48:59,476
Speaker 3: most devastating experiences of my life and for New Zealand,

811
00:48:59,556 --> 00:49:02,796
Speaker 3: I think it will remain just one of the darkest

812
00:49:02,836 --> 00:49:09,516
Speaker 3: periods in our history. And for those who might want

813
00:49:09,516 --> 00:49:12,796
Speaker 3: a little bit more context, a white supremacist from Australia

814
00:49:12,876 --> 00:49:14,796
Speaker 3: came to New Zealand because he saw us as too

815
00:49:14,796 --> 00:49:19,996
Speaker 3: inclusive and too multicultural, and so he legally obtained several

816
00:49:20,236 --> 00:49:24,716
Speaker 3: Ar fifteen's and he targeted Friday prayers to maximize the

817
00:49:24,796 --> 00:49:27,716
Speaker 3: number of victims, and he took the lives of fifty

818
00:49:27,716 --> 00:49:31,836
Speaker 3: one members of our Muslim community, and he broadcast it.

819
00:49:32,036 --> 00:49:36,076
Speaker 3: He live streamed it for seventeen minutes on Facebook before

820
00:49:36,116 --> 00:49:42,036
Speaker 3: it was before it was pulled down. You know, I

821
00:49:42,076 --> 00:49:46,116
Speaker 3: remember going into a briefing, you know, once I finally

822
00:49:46,116 --> 00:49:48,356
Speaker 3: managed to get I was in New Plymouth when it happened.

823
00:49:48,396 --> 00:49:50,676
Speaker 3: Once I finally managed to get to Wellington and into

824
00:49:50,716 --> 00:49:53,996
Speaker 3: a briefing. As I walked into the room, one of

825
00:49:54,036 --> 00:49:58,236
Speaker 3: the heads of my department said, Prime Minister, this will

826
00:49:58,276 --> 00:50:02,556
Speaker 3: define you remember thinking he's probably right, but I just

827
00:50:02,596 --> 00:50:04,956
Speaker 3: can't think about that right now. Right now, I just

828
00:50:05,836 --> 00:50:09,876
Speaker 3: have to be whateveryone needs me to be in this heavy, dark,

829
00:50:09,956 --> 00:50:13,916
Speaker 3: difficult moment. And one of the things I grappled with

830
00:50:14,036 --> 00:50:17,676
Speaker 3: at that time was, you know, not the decision to

831
00:50:17,676 --> 00:50:20,916
Speaker 3: go to christ Church, not the decision to call them

832
00:50:20,916 --> 00:50:24,796
Speaker 3: a terrorists because that was clear cut, Not the decision

833
00:50:24,876 --> 00:50:27,876
Speaker 3: to cover my head because that felt just like the

834
00:50:27,956 --> 00:50:31,756
Speaker 3: simple respectful thing to do in that moment. One of

835
00:50:31,836 --> 00:50:33,716
Speaker 3: the things I grappled with was whether or not I

836
00:50:33,876 --> 00:50:39,156
Speaker 3: was whether it would be okay if I wasn't able

837
00:50:39,636 --> 00:50:43,196
Speaker 3: to hold back my tears. And I, you know, just

838
00:50:43,276 --> 00:50:46,236
Speaker 3: internally grappled with that, didn't say much about it out loud,

839
00:50:46,276 --> 00:50:50,756
Speaker 3: but quietly worried, that's still so early on in my premiership,

840
00:50:51,276 --> 00:50:52,996
Speaker 3: that if I came to a moment where I was

841
00:50:53,036 --> 00:50:56,116
Speaker 3: just simply overcome, would it appear that I didn't have

842
00:50:56,116 --> 00:50:58,876
Speaker 3: the strength to carry New Zealand through this difficult time.

843
00:50:59,396 --> 00:51:01,196
Speaker 3: Would I be making it about me when it was

844
00:51:01,236 --> 00:51:05,916
Speaker 3: about the Muslim community. In the end, though, there's almost

845
00:51:05,956 --> 00:51:08,996
Speaker 3: actually nothing you can do about it, and maybe the

846
00:51:09,356 --> 00:51:13,076
Speaker 3: moment of being human, maybe that builds a bit of

847
00:51:13,076 --> 00:51:15,676
Speaker 3: trust and confidence because people are reminded that they're not

848
00:51:15,756 --> 00:51:19,956
Speaker 3: being governed by a robot. There's a human behind the

849
00:51:20,036 --> 00:51:23,436
Speaker 3: job as well, And then you're not a narcissist either,

850
00:51:25,916 --> 00:51:29,836
Speaker 3: You're just a humane But here is an important lesson

851
00:51:29,836 --> 00:51:35,156
Speaker 3: I think as well, though, and empathetic leadership. It is

852
00:51:35,196 --> 00:51:38,996
Speaker 3: not just simply the idea of bringing your authentic self

853
00:51:39,076 --> 00:51:42,396
Speaker 3: and your emotions and whatever to the job. Empathy is

854
00:51:42,476 --> 00:51:48,596
Speaker 3: nothing without action. It would have been pure performative if

855
00:51:48,636 --> 00:51:53,236
Speaker 3: it was just an expression of empathy. Empathy requires action,

856
00:51:53,876 --> 00:51:57,276
Speaker 3: and that was why we banned military style semi automatic

857
00:51:57,276 --> 00:52:05,676
Speaker 3: with happens at Amazing.

858
00:52:06,996 --> 00:52:10,036
Speaker 1: Your sense of humor has been on display tonight. How

859
00:52:10,036 --> 00:52:14,756
Speaker 1: did you maintain your sense of humor during such a

860
00:52:14,836 --> 00:52:15,516
Speaker 1: tough post?

861
00:52:17,756 --> 00:52:22,076
Speaker 3: You know, you've heard tonight about COVID, and you've heard

862
00:52:22,116 --> 00:52:26,436
Speaker 3: it heard about a horrific domestic terror attack, and you've

863
00:52:26,476 --> 00:52:30,556
Speaker 3: heard about the difficult things that cut and thrust of politics.

864
00:52:30,716 --> 00:52:34,196
Speaker 3: But there is real joy in it as well. You know,

865
00:52:34,316 --> 00:52:38,716
Speaker 3: I cannot imagine a job where you have the privilege

866
00:52:39,276 --> 00:52:42,436
Speaker 3: of both seeing an individual who might be struggling with

867
00:52:42,516 --> 00:52:46,796
Speaker 3: an issue, or an entire community or group of people,

868
00:52:46,916 --> 00:52:48,956
Speaker 3: and you have it within your power to do something

869
00:52:48,996 --> 00:52:52,356
Speaker 3: about that. Yeah, there are so few jobs where you

870
00:52:52,396 --> 00:52:56,756
Speaker 3: have that opportunity, and so everything else that happens around

871
00:52:56,796 --> 00:53:01,076
Speaker 3: the edges is in a way the politics. The real

872
00:53:01,156 --> 00:53:03,956
Speaker 3: meaning is that the job that you're doing day to day,

873
00:53:03,956 --> 00:53:06,356
Speaker 3: and there is joy in that, and I wish that

874
00:53:06,396 --> 00:53:10,116
Speaker 3: people got to see more of that. It's what sustained

875
00:53:10,116 --> 00:53:13,316
Speaker 3: me through fifteen years in politics, and it's the reason

876
00:53:13,356 --> 00:53:15,316
Speaker 3: why when people say to me, would you ever if

877
00:53:15,356 --> 00:53:17,796
Speaker 3: your daughter came to and said I want to go

878
00:53:18,076 --> 00:53:20,836
Speaker 3: to politics, That is the reason I would support her.

879
00:53:21,036 --> 00:53:25,236
Speaker 3: There is joy in politics too. We should talk about that.

880
00:53:25,756 --> 00:53:27,156
Speaker 3: We should talk about it. Yeah.

881
00:53:27,156 --> 00:53:31,396
Speaker 1: Wow, many people were surprised when you decided to step

882
00:53:31,436 --> 00:53:34,476
Speaker 1: down as Prime minister. Can you tell us a bit

883
00:53:34,476 --> 00:53:35,756
Speaker 1: more about that decision?

884
00:53:36,716 --> 00:53:38,796
Speaker 3: Do you know one of those things where I think

885
00:53:38,836 --> 00:53:42,156
Speaker 3: people always look for the one thing which is so understandable,

886
00:53:42,236 --> 00:53:44,276
Speaker 3: you know, the tidy little tied up with the bow,

887
00:53:44,516 --> 00:53:46,316
Speaker 3: the reason why you left. But for me, it was

888
00:53:46,356 --> 00:53:49,236
Speaker 3: a lot of things, and the easiest way I can

889
00:53:49,316 --> 00:53:51,636
Speaker 3: explain it is that all of the things I valued

890
00:53:51,756 --> 00:53:55,396
Speaker 3: about leadership, the things that I thought were important, you know, curiosity,

891
00:53:56,276 --> 00:54:00,236
Speaker 3: not being defensive, you know, maintaining that open mind and

892
00:54:00,276 --> 00:54:04,476
Speaker 3: the importance of having enough in reserve when things go array.

893
00:54:05,676 --> 00:54:09,436
Speaker 3: I could feel those depleting and so I really added

894
00:54:09,516 --> 00:54:11,476
Speaker 3: to question whether or not that meant that it was

895
00:54:11,516 --> 00:54:13,916
Speaker 3: time to go. The thing I struggled with is I

896
00:54:13,956 --> 00:54:16,636
Speaker 3: felt a responsibility to stay, because when you're worried about

897
00:54:16,636 --> 00:54:19,036
Speaker 3: whether will you know people are telling you you have

898
00:54:19,116 --> 00:54:22,956
Speaker 3: to fight in the next election, and so that was

899
00:54:23,036 --> 00:54:26,876
Speaker 3: on my mind. The small group of people I could

900
00:54:26,916 --> 00:54:29,476
Speaker 3: tell that I was thinking about it, my chief of staff,

901
00:54:29,476 --> 00:54:33,916
Speaker 3: my deputy Prime Minister, and my now husband. None of

902
00:54:33,956 --> 00:54:37,116
Speaker 3: them supported me to leave, and so it was a

903
00:54:37,236 --> 00:54:40,956
Speaker 3: very lonely decision. Sure, but I'll tell you if you

904
00:54:41,036 --> 00:54:44,196
Speaker 3: have ever been in a role that responsibility took you

905
00:54:44,316 --> 00:54:47,196
Speaker 3: to and it's those are the hardest roles to leave.

906
00:54:47,916 --> 00:54:51,796
Speaker 3: And so it was only when I thought about it

907
00:54:51,836 --> 00:54:55,876
Speaker 3: through the lens of the responsibility. I had to also

908
00:54:56,076 --> 00:54:58,436
Speaker 3: know when it was time to go that that was

909
00:54:58,556 --> 00:55:03,036
Speaker 3: an act of responsibility as well that I allowed myself

910
00:55:03,076 --> 00:55:06,396
Speaker 3: permission to leave. So that was the decision.

911
00:55:07,036 --> 00:55:16,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really love that sentiment, and you know, we

912
00:55:16,196 --> 00:55:19,596
Speaker 1: forget sometimes that like staying in the job, the status quo,

913
00:55:19,716 --> 00:55:22,676
Speaker 1: that is a choice itself right, So quitting feels like

914
00:55:22,796 --> 00:55:25,316
Speaker 1: the decision stupping down, but it's actually a decision to

915
00:55:25,316 --> 00:55:28,756
Speaker 1: also stay. And there is an opportunity cost on staying

916
00:55:28,836 --> 00:55:30,876
Speaker 1: or maybe you know, cost your well being or what

917
00:55:30,916 --> 00:55:34,556
Speaker 1: have you. So knowing when it's time to leave it

918
00:55:34,596 --> 00:55:36,516
Speaker 1: is a huge part of Absolutely.

919
00:55:36,756 --> 00:55:41,396
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I did not think that it would it would

920
00:55:41,436 --> 00:55:44,916
Speaker 3: be such a topic of conversation, but I do think

921
00:55:45,356 --> 00:55:49,676
Speaker 3: it would be great if politics came with a range

922
00:55:49,916 --> 00:55:53,596
Speaker 3: of off ramps. Because the off ramps in our system

923
00:55:53,676 --> 00:55:55,956
Speaker 3: I can't speak to anyone else's, but in New Zealand,

924
00:55:56,036 --> 00:56:01,796
Speaker 3: you basically have to lose or die. Then no one quits.

925
00:56:01,876 --> 00:56:04,276
Speaker 3: And I think in part there's a lot of pressure

926
00:56:04,316 --> 00:56:07,476
Speaker 3: often on yesterday, but also there's an assumption that once

927
00:56:07,516 --> 00:56:10,116
Speaker 3: you have power, you won't give it up. I see

928
00:56:10,156 --> 00:56:14,076
Speaker 3: it differently. If you flip out the word power with responsibility,

929
00:56:14,396 --> 00:56:16,316
Speaker 3: then there will eventually be a time that you hand

930
00:56:16,356 --> 00:56:17,076
Speaker 3: that better and over.

931
00:56:17,356 --> 00:56:21,676
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have spent the last two years living in America.

932
00:56:22,796 --> 00:56:24,796
Speaker 1: Just sinda, we don't deserve you here, but thank you

933
00:56:24,836 --> 00:56:28,556
Speaker 1: for coming anyway. You've been a fellow at Harvard. You've

934
00:56:28,596 --> 00:56:32,876
Speaker 1: actually built this like young group of empathetic leaders, you're

935
00:56:32,996 --> 00:56:35,756
Speaker 1: thinking about tech and AI, and just tell me a

936
00:56:35,756 --> 00:56:37,876
Speaker 1: little bit about what your time has been like. You're

937
00:56:37,916 --> 00:56:41,556
Speaker 1: working with young people and inspiring them and trying to

938
00:56:41,596 --> 00:56:43,796
Speaker 1: renew their commitment to pop up service.

939
00:56:43,956 --> 00:56:46,516
Speaker 3: Being here has been a gift. It's been a gift

940
00:56:46,516 --> 00:56:48,596
Speaker 3: for lots of reasons, in part because you don't actually

941
00:56:48,636 --> 00:56:50,196
Speaker 3: have a lot of time to think and learn when

942
00:56:50,196 --> 00:56:53,796
Speaker 3: you're a leader, and just the time to reflect has

943
00:56:53,836 --> 00:56:58,956
Speaker 3: been really important and learn about. You know, if I

944
00:56:58,996 --> 00:57:02,116
Speaker 3: am in the privileged position of imparting to others some

945
00:57:02,276 --> 00:57:05,516
Speaker 3: lessons from leadership, how can I, you know, put a

946
00:57:05,876 --> 00:57:08,476
Speaker 3: put a bit more theory behind that as well. I

947
00:57:08,516 --> 00:57:12,836
Speaker 3: now run a fellowship on empathetic leadership. I started it

948
00:57:12,916 --> 00:57:16,196
Speaker 3: last year and we started with Europe after the EU elections,

949
00:57:16,756 --> 00:57:20,956
Speaker 3: and we had fourteen existing politicians, many of them quite senior,

950
00:57:21,996 --> 00:57:24,276
Speaker 3: all of them who believe in empathetic leadership, but not

951
00:57:24,316 --> 00:57:26,436
Speaker 3: all of them who believe they could be successful and

952
00:57:26,476 --> 00:57:30,876
Speaker 3: do it. And I have found such joy in their

953
00:57:30,916 --> 00:57:34,836
Speaker 3: work because it reminded me that there are good people

954
00:57:34,956 --> 00:57:38,716
Speaker 3: out there who now deserve a network of support around them,

955
00:57:38,996 --> 00:57:41,076
Speaker 3: and if voters are given a chance to vote for them,

956
00:57:41,436 --> 00:57:44,596
Speaker 3: we'll find their success too, and so that is the

957
00:57:44,676 --> 00:57:46,996
Speaker 3: kind of thing that I'm now spending my time on

958
00:57:47,276 --> 00:57:49,556
Speaker 3: and being able to have the space to do it

959
00:57:49,676 --> 00:57:53,516
Speaker 3: out of here, out of the US has been a gift.

960
00:57:54,276 --> 00:57:57,596
Speaker 3: So it's been a great place to be and great

961
00:57:57,636 --> 00:57:58,636
Speaker 3: people to be amongst.

962
00:57:58,956 --> 00:58:02,876
Speaker 1: So thank you, of course, so I can take credit

963
00:58:02,916 --> 00:58:04,996
Speaker 1: for You're so welcome.

964
00:58:06,516 --> 00:58:08,236
Speaker 3: So in New Zealand we do that. If you come

965
00:58:08,276 --> 00:58:11,716
Speaker 3: to New Zealand, consider that we are literally hosting you.

966
00:58:12,396 --> 00:58:14,876
Speaker 3: And so when you say your country is so beautiful,

967
00:58:14,916 --> 00:58:17,956
Speaker 3: we'll say as if we designed it ourselves. Thank you,

968
00:58:19,316 --> 00:58:19,916
Speaker 3: Thank you.

969
00:58:20,676 --> 00:58:23,636
Speaker 1: Well. Unfortunately that is all the time we have for tonight,

970
00:58:23,676 --> 00:58:28,076
Speaker 1: but I want to extend so much gratitude. I'm so

971
00:58:28,156 --> 00:58:30,676
Speaker 1: grateful to you for having joined all of us tonight.

972
00:58:30,756 --> 00:58:36,476
Speaker 1: This has been such a wonderful, dynamic, warm audience. And yes,

973
00:58:36,556 --> 00:58:38,556
Speaker 1: please come back again soon to thank you so much.

974
00:58:40,476 --> 00:58:47,436
Speaker 2: Thank You've been listening to Dame Jacinda Ardern, New Zealand's

975
00:58:47,436 --> 00:58:52,596
Speaker 2: former Prime Minister, in conversation with doctor Maya Shanker. This

976
00:58:52,636 --> 00:58:55,276
Speaker 2: program was recorded at the Sydney Goldstein Theater in San

977
00:58:55,316 --> 00:58:58,116
Speaker 2: Francisco on June ninth, twenty twenty five.

978
00:59:05,116 --> 00:59:07,196
Speaker 1: These broadcasts are produced by.

979
00:59:07,156 --> 00:59:12,276
Speaker 2: City Arts and Lectures inciation with KQED Public Radio San Francisco.

980
00:59:12,916 --> 00:59:16,996
Speaker 2: Executive producers are Kate Goldstein Brier and Holly Mulder Wallin.

981
00:59:17,596 --> 00:59:22,916
Speaker 2: Alexandra Blackman is Director of Design and Communications. Assistants provided

982
00:59:22,956 --> 00:59:28,396
Speaker 2: by Mark Spirou Sidney Goldstein, Technical director Stephen Eckert. Our

983
00:59:28,436 --> 00:59:32,876
Speaker 2: post production director is Nina Thorson. The recording engineer is

984
00:59:32,996 --> 00:59:37,116
Speaker 2: Jane Heaven. Theme music composed and performed by Pat Gleeson.

985
00:59:37,716 --> 00:59:44,156
Speaker 2: City Arts and Lectures founding producer is Sidney Goldstein. City

986
00:59:44,236 --> 00:59:46,956
Speaker 2: Arts and Lectures programs are supported by grants for the

987
00:59:47,036 --> 00:59:50,676
Speaker 2: Arts of the San Francisco Hotel Tax Fund. Additional funding

988
00:59:50,756 --> 00:59:55,676
Speaker 2: provided by the Bernard Oscher Foundation, Barry Trout and the

989
00:59:55,756 --> 00:59:59,436
Speaker 2: Friends of City Arts and Lectures. Support for recording and

990
00:59:59,476 --> 01:00:02,476
Speaker 2: post production of City Arts and Lectures is provided by

991
01:00:02,596 --> 01:00:04,876
Speaker 2: Robert Mahler Anderson and Nikola Miner.

992
01:00:05,556 --> 01:00:06,916
Speaker 1: To attend a live.

993
01:00:06,756 --> 01:00:10,596
Speaker 2: Program or for a list of up coming guests, visit

994
01:00:10,636 --> 01:00:16,196
Speaker 2: our website at Cityarts dot net. That's Cityarts dot net.