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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: And what I don't understand Todd Blanche? What happened to

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Speaker 2: the Todd Blanche who was a prosper in the Southern

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Speaker 2: District of New York. What happened to the prosecutor people

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Speaker 2: had respect for. What happened to the prosecutor who once

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Speaker 2: respected the rule of law. What happened to the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: who said that there wouldn't be a whiff of political

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Speaker 2: partisanship and then prosecutes the president's enemies over seashells cases

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Speaker 2: over making a video stating the plane law and Constitution.

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Speaker 2: What happened to the Todd Blanche of the Southern District

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Speaker 2: of New York that could convert him into you?

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Speaker 3: You asked me, what happened to Todd Blanche? I am

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Speaker 3: still here. I am the same exact person I was

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Speaker 3: when I was a federal proscer in the SDMY, which

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Speaker 3: is do the right thing and do everything you can

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Speaker 3: to keep a community safe. So when I was a

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Speaker 3: lion prosecutor, when I was a supervisor, when I was

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Speaker 3: the head of a division, my motivation and my goal

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Speaker 3: was the same thing.

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Speaker 4: Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche faced some tough questions at

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Speaker 4: his confirmation hearings from Democratic senators like Adam Schiff over

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Speaker 4: his brief but tumultuous tenure over the Justice Department. The

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Speaker 4: questions focused on whether Blanche could be independent of President Trump,

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Speaker 4: his former client, the one point eight billion dollar anti

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Speaker 4: weaponization fund he created, the bungal release of the Epstein files,

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Speaker 4: and the prosecution of the President's political enemies. With Democrats

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Speaker 4: on the Judiciary Committee united against Blanche, he can't afford

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Speaker 4: to lose even one Republican vote. Republican Senator John Cornin

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Speaker 4: says he hasn't decided how to vote yet, and Republican

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Speaker 4: Senator Tom Tillis gave Blanche an ultimatum today meet with

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Speaker 4: the Epstein survivors or you won't get my vote.

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Speaker 5: I expect that meeting to occur before. I'm willing to

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Speaker 5: be out of this committee, and I'm trying to get

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Speaker 5: to yes. But this is a very important part of

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Speaker 5: getting to yes. There should not be any reason why,

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Speaker 5: based on what mister Blanche said yesterday. If he said

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Speaker 5: that he would do it today, then he can certainly

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Speaker 5: do it over the next two weeks.

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Speaker 4: Joining me is Amy Powell, litigation director at Lawyers for

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Speaker 4: Good Government. She's a former senior trial counsel at the

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Speaker 4: Justice Department. I'll start with the broad question, Amy, what

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Speaker 4: did Blanche demonstrate to you in this five hour, contentious hearing.

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Speaker 1: Well, not much changed in my view.

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Speaker 6: Right. He is trying to present himself as a serious

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Speaker 6: career professional, but his actions belie that. He assured the

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Speaker 6: Senators under oath this time that the Weaponization Fund is dead,

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Speaker 6: but he would not explain the mechanism for that. He

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Speaker 6: didn't say he has rescinded it by order. He did

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Speaker 6: not say the settlement agreement is dead and unenforceable because

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Speaker 6: I never had authority to enter it. In fact, when

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Speaker 6: he was specifically asked that question by Senator Cornyan what

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Speaker 6: the status of the settlement agreement was, he failed to

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Speaker 6: disclaim it entirely, which means, as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 6: that the Weaponization Fund is not necessarily dead, the plaintiffs

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Speaker 6: in that case, Donald Trump and his family and associates

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Speaker 6: could sue to enforce the settlement agreement. Now, I don't

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Speaker 6: think the settlement Agreement is enforceable or a valid settlement

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Speaker 6: agreement or that he had authority to enter it. Neither

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Speaker 6: he nor Stanley Woodward did. But that doesn't mean someone

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Speaker 6: won't try to enforce it, and that doesn't mean this

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Speaker 6: Justice Department wouldn't attempt.

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Speaker 1: To settle it in the future.

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Speaker 6: To my mind, that means the Weaponization Fund is not

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Speaker 6: dead and they haven't put for Herward any proof to

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Speaker 6: the contrary.

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Speaker 4: I think more questions were asked about the Weaponization Fund

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Speaker 4: than anything else, when there were so many other things

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Speaker 4: to ask him about. Why has that become such a

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Speaker 4: focus for the senator.

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Speaker 6: That's a good question to which I don't necessarily have

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Speaker 6: the answer. My sense, as armchair psychologist is that that

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Speaker 6: level of corruption strikes a nerve with Republican senators and

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Speaker 6: others among their constituents who might be sympathetic to Trump.

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Speaker 6: That Todd Blanche and the administration are using the Justice

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Speaker 6: Department to pay out unearned money to the Trump family

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Speaker 6: and to friends and associates.

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Speaker 1: The level of corruption is.

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Speaker 6: Something that is hard to square with their public responsibilities. Certainly,

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Speaker 6: senators like Tillis and Cornin have been extremely critical of

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Speaker 6: the Weaponization Fund from the outset. While I understand Tillis

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Speaker 6: has said he is at least partially satisfied he hadn't

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Speaker 6: formally made up his mind.

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Speaker 1: Senator Cornyn seems not to be and I'm glad to hear.

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Speaker 4: That while a lot of time was spent on the

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Speaker 4: weaponization Fund, not that much time was spent on the

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Speaker 4: tax agreement that we've talked about before, which he defended,

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Speaker 4: and he said, you know it's going forward, but he

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Speaker 4: said it's part of any settlement.

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Speaker 6: It doesn't appear to be part of the settlement, right,

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Speaker 6: it's not mentioned in the settlement agreement.

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Speaker 1: What is the status of this document?

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Speaker 6: So certainly Blanche seemed to confirm that he views it

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Speaker 6: as part of the settlement, and therefore that he viewsed

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Speaker 6: the settlement as an enforceable contract, and that this piece

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Speaker 6: of it is still alive. I think that should outrage

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Speaker 6: anyone who's paying attention that they have offered this sort

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Speaker 6: of blanket immunity to Trump and associates, just potentially a

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Speaker 6: very broad category, not just his family members, in ways

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Speaker 6: that are certainly not consistent with DOJ policy or long

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Speaker 6: standing practice, but also just not consistent with ordinary conceptions

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Speaker 6: of justice. What the Justice Department ought to be up

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Speaker 6: to protecting the rule of law and the American taxpayer

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Speaker 6: and the public fisk things they.

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Speaker 1: Ought to be up to.

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Speaker 6: Not like granting blanket immunity to the president and his

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Speaker 6: family member, especially for things that weren't hard of the

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Speaker 6: underlying lawsuit. Even if one had some outrage towards the

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Speaker 6: government for some contractor's leak of Trump's tax returns, right,

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Speaker 6: that would not justify in any sense like blanket immunity

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Speaker 6: for the president and his family members for anything that

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Speaker 6: they may have done wrong in the past. And I

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Speaker 6: hesitate to call it agreement because it's not actually mentioned

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Speaker 6: in the agreement.

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Speaker 1: This waiver language.

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Speaker 6: Appears to attempt to confer immunity for things wholly unrelated

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Speaker 6: to the dispute over the leak of his tax returns

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Speaker 6: or the alleged leak of his tax returns. It grants

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Speaker 6: immunity for anything he or a family member may be

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Speaker 6: investigated for, whether that is, you know, improper tax returns

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Speaker 6: anytime in the past several years, or it is a

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Speaker 6: parking ticket from the National Park Service, or some dispute

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Speaker 6: with the Postal Service about what postages do. The sort

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Speaker 6: of blanket immunity for him and his family members is

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Speaker 6: wild wildly disconnected to the underlying dispute.

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Speaker 4: His hearing on Tuesday came after on Monday, a Florida

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Speaker 4: judge issued a scathing opinion on the Weaponization Fund and

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Speaker 4: his role in it, saying he abdicated his responsibility to

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Speaker 4: zealously defend the interests of the United States. There was

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Speaker 4: a conflict of interest because he had been Trump's personal attorney,

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Speaker 4: and she sent her decision to the Bar association in

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Speaker 4: New York, which Blanche kind of fluffed off. He said,

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Speaker 4: it's not really a referral.

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Speaker 6: So it's probably correct that it is not technically a referral.

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Speaker 6: It's not technically sanctions against him, and that is because

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Speaker 6: I think, as the court noted, neither he nor any

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Speaker 6: other government attorney ever actually entered an appearance in the case.

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Speaker 6: The only filanes on the docket are from the plaintiff's attorneys,

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Speaker 6: who are also Trump's attorneys. Right, But Todd Blanch used

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Speaker 6: to be his attorney in stan Woodward is not his attorney,

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Speaker 6: but is effectively acting as one in this case by

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Speaker 6: all appearances. So because there are active investigations of their

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Speaker 6: contact in their respective bar associations, she sit along her

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Speaker 6: order as an FYI to those investigators, even though they

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Speaker 6: were not technically subject to her jurisdiction because they were

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Speaker 6: not in court in front of her and never made

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Speaker 6: an appearance. I mean, that's a fairly strong indicator of

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Speaker 6: what this particular judge thinks on the matter, and sort

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Speaker 6: of stays within the lines I think of what she

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Speaker 6: thinks she is permitted to do. It will be interesting

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Speaker 6: to see what the Justice Department does with this order.

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Speaker 6: Otherwise it doesn't do a whole lot right Like, it

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Speaker 6: refers to the bar or one of the plaintiff's attorneys.

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Speaker 1: One's referred to the bar.

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Speaker 6: One is prevented from being admitted pro hoc vieja in

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Speaker 6: the future because it's not currently admitted in Florida.

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Speaker 1: He was just appearing by permission.

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Speaker 6: It proposes some monetary sanctions but doesn't actually impose them,

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Speaker 6: and it's unclear whether there will be any. And it

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Speaker 6: has this language about preventing referring to the agreement as

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Speaker 6: a settlement agreement. Well, I certainly agree with that. It's

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Speaker 6: unclear to me if that binds the Justice Department.

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Speaker 1: If it does, they'd almost certainly appeal.

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Speaker 6: That made some questions about whether she had the authority

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Speaker 6: to do that. The plaintiff's attorneys might appeal it regardless,

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Speaker 6: because they're certainly subject to orders since they appeared in

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Speaker 6: the case, and might claim some ethical obligation or at

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Speaker 6: least some free speech rights to refer to the agreement

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Speaker 6: agreement in quotes in whatever way they please.

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Speaker 1: That part might be tough to hold up. I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll find out.

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Speaker 6: There is also ongoing litigation in the Eastern District of Virginia,

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Speaker 6: and I guess potentially elsewhere about the Weaponization Fund and

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Speaker 6: whether or not it is really over.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's where he refused to submit a sworn statement

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Speaker 4: that the Weaponization film was dead. So the Epstein files

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Speaker 4: were another big topic, and the Justice Department's bungled release

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Speaker 4: of the Epstein files that exposed some victims' identities criticized

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Speaker 4: by lawmakers on both sides. He defended the release but

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Speaker 4: took responsible ability that there were errors, and he apologized.

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Speaker 4: I mean, do you think he handled that part well?

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Speaker 6: I mean appreciate at some level that he felt they

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Speaker 6: need to take some responsibility right that that was bungled,

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Speaker 6: especially the release of the victim's identities, which is just

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Speaker 6: gross and inexcusable. It's the only thing they.

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Speaker 1: Were explicitly allowed to redact.

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Speaker 6: In the statue, right, I think it was victims' names

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Speaker 6: and any classified information what they're explicitly allowed to redact.

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Speaker 6: I didn't really hear him take responsibility for how slow

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Speaker 6: the process has been, right, Like the idea of that

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Speaker 6: the excuse, such as it is for having accidentally released

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Speaker 6: these victims' identities was how quickly they had to move,

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Speaker 6: And yet they haven't moved all that quickly. There are

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Speaker 6: still unreleased files, and much of what they have released

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Speaker 6: appears to be over redacted to people. That's in litigation

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Speaker 6: and in several places, whether or not they can redact

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Speaker 6: things where redaction is permitted under other statutes, or I

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Speaker 6: think the Justice Department would say it's required under a

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Speaker 6: other statutes. And I don't presume to know the answer

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Speaker 6: to those questions. But the fact is there are a

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Speaker 6: lot of documents, and they have not committed the resources

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Speaker 6: necessary to get those documents out, and it sure looks

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Speaker 6: like just an attempt to protect the president's interest he wistress,

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Speaker 6: not some interest of the presidency or the office.

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Speaker 4: Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with Amy Powell

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Speaker 4: of Lawyers for Good Government. Has the Justice Department really

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Speaker 4: lost the confidence of federal judges. I'm June Grosso and

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Speaker 4: you're listening to Bloomberg. Whether or not Todd Blanch will

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Speaker 4: be confirmed as the next Attorney General remains uncertain after

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Speaker 4: two days of confirmation hearings. I've been talking to Amy Powell,

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Speaker 4: litigation director at Lawyers for Good Government. Amy Blanche needs

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Speaker 4: every Republican Senator to vote for him to get his

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Speaker 4: confirmation out of the Judiciary Committee, and Republican Senator Tom

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Speaker 4: Tillis gave him an ultimatum, meet with the Epstein survivors

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Speaker 4: or you don't get my vote. Is it unusual for

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Speaker 4: an attorney general or an acting Attorney general in this

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Speaker 4: case to meet with victims?

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Speaker 1: A good question.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if it's unusual, to be honest, I

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Speaker 6: assume it is unusual for her attorney generals to be

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Speaker 6: involved in the nitty gritty of cases like this and

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Speaker 6: meeting with witnesses and victims. But he's already done so,

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Speaker 6: right like he met with Justlaine Maxwell, which.

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Speaker 1: Was also extremely unusual.

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Speaker 6: To meet with her her and not her victims is

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Speaker 6: something that certainly publicly looks very bad. I gotta say,

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Speaker 6: till Us, this demand that he meet with the victims

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Speaker 6: seems like an extremely low bar.

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Speaker 1: For becoming Attorney General.

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Speaker 6: And if he can't manage that, like I hope Senator

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Speaker 6: Tillis is unimpressed, but we shall see.

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Speaker 4: Blanche was also questioned about the fact that after he

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Speaker 4: met with Glainne Maxwell at a Florida prison, about a

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Speaker 4: week later, is transferred to a prison camp. Blanche claimed

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Speaker 4: it was because she was getting threats. But here's what

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Speaker 4: Senator Booker said about that.

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Speaker 7: When people are under threats in a Bureau of Prison facility,

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Speaker 7: they're put into solitary confinement or protective They're not moved

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Speaker 7: to a camp.

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Speaker 8: That's not always true.

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Speaker 7: What is what is true is someone that is accused

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Speaker 7: of child sex trafficking under the Bureau of Prison's own policies,

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Speaker 7: is not put in a facility like this. That seems

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Speaker 7: clearly like a reward.

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Speaker 6: It sure smacks of a special deal because she didn't

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Speaker 6: incriminate the president. But I don't have any more knowledge

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Speaker 6: about that than anyone else.

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Speaker 1: It's unusual.

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Speaker 6: It seems like he cut her a sweetheart deal in

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Speaker 6: exchange for not incriminating the president. That's what it looks

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Speaker 6: like to everyone. Just the appearance of impropriety, especially given

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Speaker 6: his former role as Trump's personal lawyer, just keeps escalating.

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Speaker 4: And that was a part that the Democrats were pressing

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Speaker 4: him up, whether he was able to be independent from

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Speaker 4: the White House, whether he was still Trump's personal lawyer.

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Speaker 4: He said, President Trump trusts me to give him counsel.

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Speaker 4: Counsel doesn't mean I'm a yes man. But then when

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Speaker 4: he was pressed about it by Senator Koons, he said

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Speaker 4: that the Justice Department is part of the executive branch.

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Speaker 4: If confirmed, he'll be a member of the cabinet who

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Speaker 4: serves at the pleasure of the president. The Justice Department

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Speaker 4: traditionally has been different from other departments.

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Speaker 6: It has there's a tradition of independence to ensure that

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Speaker 6: while they are subject to political control, they are also

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Speaker 6: exercising independent judgment, that they aren't subject to the political

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Speaker 6: whims of the White House. They aren't trying to advance

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Speaker 6: anyone's partisan political interests.

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Speaker 1: And while I realize.

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Speaker 6: People will point to this instance or that where the

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Speaker 6: Justice they think the Justice Department didn't do that perfectly,

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Speaker 6: it has, at least until now, always been the ideal

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Speaker 6: of the Justice Department, and I think that's important that

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Speaker 6: that be an ideal that people are at least aspiring

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Speaker 6: to subscribe to. It is not under this administration, right,

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Speaker 6: And I'm not speaking about the rank and file career attorneys,

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Speaker 6: many of whom are trying to continue to do their

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Speaker 6: best work and provide their best counsel. I'm saying that

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Speaker 6: the political officials at the Justice Department, including Todd Blanche

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Speaker 6: have repeatedly explained that they don't think the Justice Department

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Speaker 6: should be independent. The reason he is not claiming to

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Speaker 6: be defending himself as independent from the president is that

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Speaker 6: he's not, and he has argued that he shouldn't be.

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Speaker 6: He thinks the Justice Department should be subject to the

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Speaker 6: political whims of the presidency. Of course, the Justice Department

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Speaker 6: has argued in court repeatedly across this administration the independent

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Speaker 6: agencies are a thing that everything is supposed to be

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Speaker 6: subject to the political whims of the White House, which

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Speaker 6: historically has not been true. But I think they take

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Speaker 6: that sort of theoretical idea of the unitary executive as

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Speaker 6: a serious one in how the Justice Department works as

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Speaker 6: well that they want President Trump calling the shots, and

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Speaker 6: Todd Blanche has said, and I'm forgetting the quote exactly,

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Speaker 6: but something like Americans should be thankful that the president

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Speaker 6: is involved in the day to day operations of the

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Speaker 6: Justice Department. I, for one, am not. I don't think

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Speaker 6: Senators till Us recorded should be either.

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Speaker 4: And then there was this slip of the tongue Freudian

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Speaker 4: slip during friendly questioning by Republican Senator John Kennedy.

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Speaker 7: Are you in President Trump?

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Speaker 6: French?

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Speaker 3: I'm his lawyer, was his lawyer, and now I'm the

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Speaker 3: deputy attorney general.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure how much we should make of that,

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Speaker 4: but it's hard to ignore it, is it?

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Speaker 1: Freudi Man?

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Speaker 6: It's easy to pile on, right, But he says he's

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Speaker 6: the president's lawyer. He means he's Donald Trump's lawyer, and

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Speaker 6: he acts that way in any case. You know that

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Speaker 6: is his view, and he has repeatedly expressed it. It's

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Speaker 6: that in practice he has not acted as independent or

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Speaker 6: like he's even providing independent counsel in any meaningful way.

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Speaker 4: I thought they didn't spend enough time on the state

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Speaker 4: of the Justice Department under Blanche and Bondy before him.

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Speaker 4: Here's Senator Sheldon Whitehouse questioning Blanche about the fact that

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Speaker 4: judges have criticized the Department and its lawyers over their

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Speaker 4: behavior in court cases.

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Speaker 8: Or it's like pretext mean a lot coming from a

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Speaker 8: judge about a government argument, usually enjoying the presumption of regularity.

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Speaker 8: We need answers. I need you to be able to

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Speaker 8: tell me that this kind of misconduct is going to

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Speaker 8: stop if you're confirmed as Attorney general. Can you say

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Speaker 8: that the.

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Speaker 9: Department of Justice works hard, the prosecutors work hard every day,

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Speaker 9: and I appreciate the handpicked words that you have behind

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Speaker 9: you right now, but that's not reflective of the one

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Speaker 9: hundred thousand indictments and informations that have been filed to

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Speaker 9: do the work that I talked about earlier today.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's case after case of federal judges complaining

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Speaker 4: about the actions of Justice Department attorneys or Justice Department

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Speaker 4: attorneys not following their orders, even allegations of misconduct before

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Speaker 4: grand juries, and the Justice Department may be losing that

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Speaker 4: presumption of regularity.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there are repeated instances of judges finding that the

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Speaker 6: presumption of regularity didn't apply or should be overcome.

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Speaker 1: For those not familiar listening. The presumption of.

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Speaker 6: Regularity is the idea that the court will presume that

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Speaker 6: the government is acting in good faith, in the ordinary

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Speaker 6: course and carrying out.

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Speaker 1: Its duties as it is supposed to.

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Speaker 6: Just the sort of thing we as Americans, most of us,

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Speaker 6: tend to assume that the government officials are attempting to

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Speaker 6: do their job in good faith and attempting to comply

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Speaker 6: with the rules. The presumption just meant that, absent some

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Speaker 6: evidence to the contrary, they're going to assume that these

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Speaker 6: officials are acting in good faith and consistent with the rules.

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Speaker 6: Courts are repeatedly finding that overcome. There is a website

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Speaker 6: I think managed by Just Security which is collecting instances

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Speaker 6: where courts have explicitly rejected the presumption of regularity under

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Speaker 6: the circumstances, which is I don't know if it's up

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Speaker 6: to date, but for a former government attorneyment like myself,

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Speaker 6: it is.

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Speaker 1: A daunting list.

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Speaker 6: That is a presumption that has been overcome before. Right,

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Speaker 6: it is only a presumption, but rarely not with such regularity,

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Speaker 6: not with such vehemence. Courts are angry and it's not

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Speaker 6: what I mean. I'm not really sure there are all

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Speaker 6: that many woke, radical.

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Speaker 1: Leftist judges out there.

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Speaker 6: I'm not sure that's a category that exists. But many

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Speaker 6: of the people who are finding against the government in

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Speaker 6: these instances are Republican appointees, even Trump appointees, who are

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Speaker 6: finding that the government has acted improperly. And you know,

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Speaker 6: some of that comes down to the Trumpet administration's mass

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Speaker 6: deportation efforts. The attempt to deport as many people as possible,

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Speaker 6: as fast as possible, with very little planning or forethought,

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Speaker 6: and unleashing untrained agents to carry that out has just

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Speaker 6: led to an overwhelming number of cases, especially habeas petitions,

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Speaker 6: and the government is frankly probably unable to comply with

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Speaker 6: the law, and some instead, this is unable to comply

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Speaker 6: with core orders because they're just not organized or together

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Speaker 6: enough even if they had enough attorneys, which they don't,

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Speaker 6: and they've taken so many efforts to frankly drive attorneys

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Speaker 6: out of the department. And I don't say that to

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Speaker 6: say that the attorneys there are all terrible or doing

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Speaker 6: the wrong thing, quite the opposite. Was a career attorney

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Speaker 6: for a very long time, and I firmly believe for

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Speaker 6: the most part that the folks still.

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Speaker 1: There are as.

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Speaker 6: Career attorneys are attempting to do the right thing, to

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Speaker 6: comply with the law and court's orders as best as possible,

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Speaker 6: but their clients in the administration and people like Todd Blanch,

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Speaker 6: you're making that extremely difficult.

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Speaker 4: So we had Pam Bondy before Todd Blanche, who was

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Speaker 4: similar to him in trying to please President Trump. If

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Speaker 4: Blanche doesn't get confirmed, won't Trump just find someone else

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Speaker 4: who'll do what he wants? Does it really matter who

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Speaker 4: it is.

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Speaker 6: Well, it might be even worse than you're going to

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Speaker 6: suggesss right. He might actually be able to keep Todd

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Speaker 6: Blanche in as acting right if he has not confirmed,

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Speaker 6: doesn't even have to replace him with someone orse. I

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Speaker 6: certainly would prefer that the Senate put its foot down

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Speaker 6: and suggest to the Trump administration that there are limits

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Speaker 6: on what they will accept, which might prompt the administration

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Speaker 6: to try to replace a Blanche with someone who will

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Speaker 6: be taken more seriously as a representative of the Justice Department.

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Speaker 6: I don't know that, but it seems to be better

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Speaker 6: than the alternative of confirming him and pretending that he

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Speaker 6: is a normal nominee.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for joining me, Amy, I appreciate your insights.

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Speaker 4: That's Amy Powell, litigation director at Lloyd for Good Government,

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Speaker 4: coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. At least

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Speaker 4: ten people have died in encounters with immigration agents since

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Speaker 4: President Trump launched his mass deportation campaign last year. Five

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Speaker 4: have died from being shot by ICE agents during traffic stops.

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Speaker 4: Yet the White House has overturned a decision by the

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Speaker 4: Department of Homeland Security to suspend ICE traffic stops. I'm

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Speaker 4: June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. The Department of

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Speaker 4: Homeland Security has abandoned a day old decision to suspend

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Speaker 4: most immigration traffic stops after President Trump demanded the tactic continue.

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Speaker 4: Despite two recent fatal shootings of immigrants by ICE officers

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Speaker 4: during traffic stops. One man was shot in Maine on Monday,

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Speaker 4: the other was shot in Houston last Tuesday. A DHS

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Speaker 4: official set on Wednesday that, in line with the President's directive,

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Speaker 4: the practice will resume, effectively scrapping a policy announced on

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Speaker 4: Tuesday that had suspended most vehicle stops except in serious

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Speaker 4: criminal cases, while the agency reviewed its policies and new

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Speaker 4: officer training. The decision to scrap the pause underscores Trump's

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Speaker 4: drive to ramp up immigration arrests and deportations, the centerpiece

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Speaker 4: of his hardline enforcement policies. My guest is immigration attorney

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Speaker 4: Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. He was the head

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Speaker 4: of the Office of Civil Immigration Litigation during the Obama administration. Leon,

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Speaker 4: take us through what happened here.

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Speaker 10: We had two incidents. We had one in July seventh

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Speaker 10: and Houston, Texas, where ICE agents fatally shot Lorenzo Salgado

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Speaker 10: Araujo during a vehicle stop operation and BHS says he

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Speaker 10: used his vehicle as a weapon, and witnesses and family

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Speaker 10: members dispute that account. Then we had another incident July

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Speaker 10: thirteenth and Biddeford, Maine, where ICE agent fatally shot a

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Speaker 10: Columbia national named Johann Sebashtan Duran Guerrero during a vehicle

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Speaker 10: stop and VHS said that the driver was posing a threat,

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Speaker 10: whereas other witnesses say that that version is not true.

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Speaker 10: And you have multiple investigations that were open. So on

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Speaker 10: July fourteenth, you had ICE and DHS officials, mainly through

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Speaker 10: Tom Holman, tell officers to pause most of their non

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Speaker 10: urgent vehicle stops used in immigration enforcement, with the exceptions

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Speaker 10: if they knew that the person that was being stopped

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Speaker 10: was a violent criminal or if there was a warrant

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Speaker 10: for that person's arrest, then they could continue. And ostensibly

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Speaker 10: the reason for this was according to Tom Holman, who's

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Speaker 10: The Borders Are said that these officers needed more training

441
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 10: in how to do these vehicle stops. And in fact,

442
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 10: I have now been anecdotally through my immigration practice, learning

443
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 10: about more of these stops. And what's been happening is

444
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 10: the agent what they're doing is rather than going into

445
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 10: the home, which requires a lot of band power and

446
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 10: perhaps unturnty about what's inside that home, etc. It appears now,

447
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 10: especially if someone lives inside of an apartment complex, that

448
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 10: what they're doing is they're waiting for the person to

449
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 10: go into their car to go to work, and then

450
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 10: they're stopping them right outside of the apartment complex, so

451
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 10: that they're sort of more of a sitting duck in

452
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 10: the sense that they're not at home where they can

453
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 10: have access to god knows what weapons, etc. And they

454
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 10: don't have to barge the door down or anything. They're

455
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 10: just in the car. And then what they do is

456
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 10: they apprehend the person, they arrest them, and a second

457
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 10: ICE agent takes their car back to their apartment parking

458
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 10: lot and then that's the end of it. So there

459
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 10: is a lot more of that because I think ICE

460
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 10: has determined that that operation requires less manpower. But the

461
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 10: problem is, once you apprehend someone in their car, you

462
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 10: will get you know, you can say one out of

463
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 10: one hundred, I don't know one out of two hundred

464
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 10: situations where someone who's in their car will have a

465
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 10: completely paranoid reaction as to, oh my god, now, what's

466
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 10: going to happen with my kids? What's gonna happen with

467
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 10: my spouse? And they'll try to drive away, and that's

468
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 10: something that's gonna happen. And then the question is what

469
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 10: do the agents do? And if the answer is they

470
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 10: shoot people or you know, what happens when the witnesses

471
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 10: to this decide to get involved with the ICE agents

472
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 10: and say, hey, what are you doing arresting this person?

473
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 10: Et cetera. You know what basically is the training and

474
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 10: the protocol for these new traffic operations that are happening.

475
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 10: So that's the genesis of this, is that this is

476
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 10: the new type of operation that's happening and so ICE

477
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 10: does want to roll out a lot more of this

478
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 10: instead of going inside the person's home. But when they

479
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 10: do this, they have these more public facing operations that

480
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 10: can lead to death.

481
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 4: So police officers are only allowed to shoot into a

482
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 4: car if the driver poses an immediate deadly threat to

483
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: the officer or others. They're not allowed to shoot if

484
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 4: someone is driving away from a traffic stop. So why

485
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 4: are an ICE officers following that as well? Why are

486
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 4: they shooting into cars even if the person they want

487
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: to catch is fleeing the scene. They shouldn't be shooting

488
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: into a car.

489
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 10: I think the main problem is that when you go

490
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 10: into work become an ICE agent, you are not trained

491
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 10: in the same manner as a local police law enforcement official.

492
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 10: I mean, the bread and butter of someone in a

493
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 10: local police office is a traffic stop, and so that's

494
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 10: the number one thing they're going to be trained as,

495
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 10: whereas at ICE that's not the bread and butter. The

496
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 10: bread and butter is you have to look at immigration

497
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 10: documents and decide whether the person is undocumented or not,

498
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 10: whether the person has legal status or not, And then

499
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 10: you get trained for certain operations like going into a

500
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 10: home or workplace. Very rarely is especially with the sort

501
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 10: of tight compressed time periods that ICE is trying to

502
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 10: roll out with agents on the street. Very rarely do

503
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 10: you actually see a situation where people can be trained

504
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 10: so quickly to handle in a professional and sophisticate a

505
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 10: manner these traffic stops. The other thing is that the

506
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 10: traffic stop for the local police officer is all about context.

507
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 10: You know, is it a speeding ticket, Is it that

508
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 10: I observe the person robbing a store? So the level

509
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 10: of force and intervention is going to be different. In

510
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 10: the ICE context, it's always about I'm trying to apprehend

511
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 10: someone to place them in removal proceedings, And so the

512
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 10: question is, well, what are you that off of? You know,

513
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 10: are you basing that off of how they look or

514
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 10: did you have a warrant to go apprehend them? And

515
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 10: so you may not be observing a crime that's leading

516
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 10: to this stop. And so those two things are what

517
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 10: make these situations more combustible than a normal police stop

518
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 10: is that the genesis for why the stop is occurring

519
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 10: may have some problem. Number one and number two, the

520
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 10: training as to what the officer is doing isn't targeted

521
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 10: for this specific type of law enforcement. If ICE wants

522
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 10: to do these traffic stops, they're going to have to

523
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 10: implement the same kind of training that the NYPD or

524
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 10: the LAPD or the Chicago PD has on how to

525
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 10: do traffic stops. And those are not short term trainings.

526
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 10: Those are very long term trainings in their police academies

527
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 10: to try to resolve those issues.

528
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 4: So what happened. President Trump didn't like the coverage.

529
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, there was a lot of social media criticism of

530
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 10: Secretary Mullen that happened immediately after this announcement was made

531
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 10: that traffic stops would be curtailed. And President Trump saw

532
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 10: all of the social media criticism and said, wait a second,

533
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 10: I don't want to get criticized. Because the social media

534
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 10: criticism was very strong, saying that he had abandoned his

535
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 10: pledge to have immigration enforcement. There was no more immigration

536
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 10: enforcement in America, you know, the amnesty people won. It

537
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 10: was very harsh criticism, and so President Trump said, do

538
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 10: not limit the amount of traffic stops that you're doing.

539
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 10: Take away this policy. And so immediately the policy was

540
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 10: taken away. Now the question is what does it mean

541
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 10: that the policy was taken away versus what's actually going

542
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 10: to be happening on the ground. And so I do

543
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 10: think the sort of suspension was taken away so that then,

544
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 10: putatively the Trump administration can say, hey, the suspension was

545
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 10: taken away. But as a factual matter, I think the

546
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 10: leadership at ICE recognizes that everyone could benefit more from

547
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 10: a closer look at what is being done in traffic

548
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 10: stops and how it's being done, and how it's being taught,

549
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 10: and how it's being drained, so that if these traffic

550
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 10: stops are going to happen, they have the least likelihood

551
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 10: of leading to a death as possible. And so I

552
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 10: do think as a practical matter, you will see changes

553
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 10: to how these are done, because they were really trying

554
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 10: to roll them out in sort of a pilot program

555
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 10: to replace the house arrest, and I think there may

556
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 10: be reconsidering that to say, I don't think we can

557
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 10: do that in all circumstances.

558
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 4: President Trump called the traffic stop one of ICE's most

559
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 4: important and effective crime fighting tools. Of course, they're not

560
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 4: fighting crime, really, they're making immigration arrests. And we know

561
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 4: there's this self imposed goal of two thousand immigration arrests

562
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: a day. How important are the traffic stops, because as

563
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: I under stand, the two people who were killed in

564
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: the latest traffic stops weren't even the targets of the operation, right.

565
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 10: I think the problem is it's going to depend on

566
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 10: whether the purpose of the traffic stop is to increase

567
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 10: the number of arrests or to replace an arrest that

568
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 10: would have already occurred inside of a home. So if

569
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 10: it's to replace an arrest that was already going to

570
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 10: occur inside of a home, then absolutely that the number

571
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 10: isn't going to be increased too much. I mean, maybe

572
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 10: you just need a slightly lower number of people to

573
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 10: accomplish the arrests, So you can have slightly more arrests

574
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 10: by replacing home arrests with traffic arrests. But what will

575
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 10: really ratchet up the number of arrests is if you

576
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 10: go back to the mode where we were at in

577
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 10: twenty twenty five, when there were some real conflagrations in

578
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 10: Los Angeles and in Chicago and in some other places

579
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 10: where what you tell ice is if you see people

580
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 10: coming out of a home depot, just arrest then and

581
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 10: pull them out of their you see people coming out

582
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 10: of some sort of construction side or whatever else, and

583
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 10: you think they look suspicious, go ahead and arrest them.

584
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 10: That's the kind of operation where again you'll see more

585
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 10: public facing criticism of the ICE officers. You'll see people

586
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 10: who were not prepared to get arrested, who may act

587
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 10: in manners that show that non preparedness in terms of

588
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 10: trying to escape, and those are going to be the

589
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 10: places where Iceland has these security challenges about how to

590
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 10: prevent these deaths from occurring during their operations.

591
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 4: There have been ten deaths in encounters with immigration agents

592
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 4: since CHUMP launched this mass deportation campaign last year. By

593
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 4: my count, five of them involved an ICE officer shooting

594
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 4: into a car, and we've had the high profile ones

595
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 4: like Renee Goods in Minnesota. The first one was in

596
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: March of twenty twenty five, where a twenty three year

597
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: old US citizen was shot during an immigration stop. And

598
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: yet none of the ICE officers have been charged with

599
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 4: anything in any of these incidents.

600
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 10: That's an issue because again you have two different problems.

601
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 10: You have one that in order for a state or

602
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 10: local prosecutor to charge them, they basically have to be

603
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 10: able to say that they've acted so far outside the

604
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 10: scope of their employment that they're basically murderer, so it'd

605
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 10: be that someone got killed during an ICE action, But

606
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 10: essentially imagining an ICE agent just going and getting into

607
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 10: a bar fight and murdering someone while they were on

608
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 10: duty just because they didn't like the person they met

609
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 10: at the bar fight, then the state or local prosecutor

610
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 10: could arrest them. But if they were in an ICE stop,

611
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 10: then it's going to be much harder. There's going to

612
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 10: be a higher immunity that attaches to their actions that

613
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 10: will prevent the state or low prosecutor for prosecuting them.

614
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 10: So what are you left with. You're left with the

615
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 10: Department of Justice having to be the prosecuting authority, and

616
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 10: they would only do that if either they received a

617
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 10: criminal referral from the ICE or the Department of Homeland

618
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 10: Security saying this agent acted improperly they should be prosecuted,

619
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 10: which we've seen no investigation that has yielded that outcome

620
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 10: that has said that an agent has acted improperly, or

621
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 10: that the Department of Justice just takes matters into their

622
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 10: own hands and says that an agent acted improperly and

623
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 10: prosecutes them, and we just have not seen that happen.

624
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 10: I think this administration has made it very clear that

625
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 10: it believes the ICE agents are acting appropriately and they

626
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 10: do not want to send the message that ICE agents

627
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 10: can be prosecuted for the actions they are undertaking on duty.

628
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 6: You know.

629
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 10: The upside of that is that the agents feel protected,

630
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 10: their morale is higher. The downside of that is that

631
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 10: you could have incidents where the ICE agent certainly did

632
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 10: violate the law happens so that they're not held accountable.

633
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 4: I think there's a serious problem with the immunity that

634
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 4: federal agents get. Thanks so much, Leon. That's Leon Fresco

635
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 4: of Hollanden Knight and that's it for this edition of

636
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 4: the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the

637
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 4: latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

638
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 4: find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www dot

639
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 4: Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law, and remember to

640
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 4: tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at ten

641
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening

642
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Speaker 4: to Bloomberg