1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Text Technology with tex Stuff from staff. Hey there, and 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: welcome to tex Stuff. I am your adorable host, Jonathan Strickland, 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: and sitting in the office with me, my good friend, 4 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: my co worker, Mr Ben Boland joins us again. Welcome Ben, Hey, Jonathan, 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me on the show. Listeners, 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: I hope you are well. I have a question for you. Yeah, okay, 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: So have you ever seen an advertisement and thought, yes, absolutely, 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: this is for me rarely, but it has been known 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: to happen. I can tell you right now. I can 10 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: tell you to ralf the top of my head. And 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: it's largely because of the tone of the advertising campaign. 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: Old Spice theodorant, right right. Dollar shave Club, Okay, what 13 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: about Dollar Shape Shave Club. The commercials for a dollar 14 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: shave Club are kind of in that same tongue in cheek, 15 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: snarky sort of approach, a little not not so in 16 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: your face as to be truly obnoxious, but just barely 17 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: straddling that line between being charming and being arrogant. And 18 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: and I find it entertaining. And I thought, well, I 19 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: I shave quite a bit actually, because because I got 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: the head that I have to shave, because nature has 21 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: deprived me of some of my hair, but not all 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: of it, so I have to get rid of the rest. 23 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: And um, and I decided to try it out because 24 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: I thought the ads were really entertaining. The idea of 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: the subscription model was much more attractive to me than 26 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: having to go to the store and ask to unlock 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: the vault of razors. Yeah, and uh, it turned out 28 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: that I loved the products, so um, the ad did 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: exactly what it was supposed to do. It got my attention, 30 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: it made me remember the brand, and it it's ultimately 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: got me to act, which are That's exactly what ads 32 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: are supposed to do. Let me tell you what ads 33 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: are not supposed to do. What they're not supposed to 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: irritate the audience to the point where they no longer 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: ever want to buy anything ever again, and then they 36 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: rage quit the internet. Um. So today we're gonna talk 37 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: about ads and ad blockers and to kind of go 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: into the discussion that's been kind of going around recently 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: about ad blockers, including some of the stuff that's going 40 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: on in Europe. Uh, some of the stuff that you 41 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: might have heard about as far as ads and their 42 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: relationship to malware. Um, what exactly is going on and 43 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: where do we stand on this? And then you know, 44 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: you you do a lot of stuff here at how 45 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: stuff works, but I specifically ask you, in your capacity 46 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: as one of the hosts of stuff, they don't want 47 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: you to know because as the host of that show, 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: you've covered the topics surrounding privacy pretty extensively, right, and 49 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: privacy is one of the factors that comes into play 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: when you're talking about advertising, particularly today when targeted advertising 51 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: has become such a huge part of strategies. Now, to 52 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: start this off, before we jump into all of that, 53 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: I thought I would give kind of a really high 54 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: level explanation of what is going on behind the scenes, uh, 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: technically with ads on web pages and thus how ad 56 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: blockers are able to work at all. You might think, well, 57 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: how can an ad blocker recognize and block and add 58 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: but not the content I'm trying to see? So, Ben 59 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: you work? You work on the web? Yes, you you 60 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: you've visited a website or two. You probably know that 61 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: you do so through something called a browser. Yes, uh 62 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: for you know, something like Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Edge and 63 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: if you are using Internet Explorer, I hope it is 64 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: only because some outside authority is making you do so, right, Like, 65 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: there's an intranet that you can only access with Internet Explorer. 66 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: Do you remember those days? Yeah, there was there. That 67 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: was the only reason I had Internet Explorer installed on 68 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: my old computer list so that I could access our 69 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: company's former intranet, which is ridiculous. But here we are 70 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: nonetheless on a browser. Yes. So when you are visiting 71 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: a website using your browser, you type in the r 72 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: L type and you put it in the address bar 73 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: and you hit that inter button. What is happening is 74 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: your browser is sending out a request over the Internet, 75 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: and it's essentially saying, Hey, the jerk on the other 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: end of this keyboard wants to see you know. Uh, 77 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what's a good website. Let's say a 78 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: Wired dot com. That's a great example, because Wired is 79 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: going to come up and in other parts of this discussion, 80 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: and Wired, by the way, I love Wired. They do 81 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: great work, and I've got a lot of friends who 82 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: have worked for Wired, either in the past or currently 83 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: love their stuff. So you're going to Wired dot com. 84 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: What happens is the uh, this request goes out over 85 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: the Internet and it's routed through a series of connections 86 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 1: until it gets to the server where wired dot com lives, 87 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: which is like the vault of their information. Yeah, it's 88 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,679 Speaker 1: a it's a it's an actual physical computer that has 89 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: the instance of that website stored on it. And then 90 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: when the request comes in, it serves, thus living up 91 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: to its name, the information to you, and it goes 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: back across the Internet, not necessarily in the same pathway 93 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: that your request came through. That gets into a discussion 94 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: of packets that really is immaterial for this. Yeah, I've 95 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: talked about packets in previous episodes. So if you really 96 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: want what packet switching is and how all that works, 97 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: go check out the archives of tech stuff and it's 98 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: out there. But the information comes to you, and your 99 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: browser puts it together and displays it for you, and 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: it does so based upon the rules set up by 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: the web master rights whoever put it together. There there 102 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: are there's language tags that that explain how it's supposed 103 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: to look when it's displayed on your browser, and that's 104 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: how it works. And so you think, okay, so so 105 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: it's really just a request and then a response. But 106 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: then you have ads. Now with ads, the content for 107 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: the ads comes from a different place than the content 108 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: for the web page itself. So those ads that are 109 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: on Wired dot com, they're actually coming from different servers. 110 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: They're not coming from Wired server, and the web page 111 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: just has a space dedicated or some form of UH 112 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: relationship there that's dedicated to the ad that says this 113 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: is where the ad will go when it's served to 114 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: the the viewer, and that depends on the arrangement between 115 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: the advertiser and the content creator. Yeah, so you could probably, 116 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we could really dive down into this and 117 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: say all these different types of ads have different UH rates, 118 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: Like a banner add at this point is almost considered 119 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: to be worthless, and a banner AD is a term 120 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: describing those long horizontal ads you will see the take 121 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: up UH an entire row I guess of a website, right, 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: and you can say, like a rail would be UH 123 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: the vertical version of that, either on the left or right. 124 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: And then there are other things like they're pop ups 125 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: under tons of different types and they all have different 126 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: rates depending upon the lots of factors. How popular is 127 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: the website UH and how effective are those ads considered 128 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: to be, Like the least effective are the ones they're 129 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: going to be the least expensive. Uh. And and in 130 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: some cases you will find web pages that have completely 131 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: abandoned some of the cheaper one because they don't really 132 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: work anyway, and you might as well try and command 133 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: a higher price. So those impressions, those those that data 134 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: is actually coming from other servers, and they're the advertisers 135 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: servers are the more likely advertising agencies servers where that 136 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: data lives. So as the page is loading up the 137 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: sections for the ads, that gets another request saying, hey, 138 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: send me the the information that's supposed to go here. 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: It's coming from this other server that gets sent to 140 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 1: your computer and is inserted into the appropriate section by 141 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: your browser when it's constructing the whole thing. Uh. The 142 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: way ad blockers work is essentially it has a filter 143 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: list saying anything coming from these particular servers, don't let 144 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: it show up. Just don't even let it through the door, 145 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: like mad ads dot com, which I just made up, right, So, 146 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: so anything that would come from that server would automatically 147 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: blocked and not be incorporated into the web page as 148 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: you're displaying it. So that's the general way that most 149 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: ad blockers work. There's another way to the ad blockers 150 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: can also look for certain tags that are associated with advertising, 151 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: like there's actually a tag for ad that kind of stuff, 152 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: and just block anything that that shows up under that tag. 153 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: But generally speaking, the idea is just kind of a 154 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 1: bouncer that says anyone from this neighborhood is not allowed 155 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: into the club, and um so checking your checking all 156 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: the I d s and saying I'm sorry, you're from 157 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: a part of the neighborhood where we don't let you in, 158 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: and so discriminatory. That's the way. That's that's how an 159 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: ad blocker has to work, right. It has to discriminate. 160 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: Otherwise you don't get You either get everything or you 161 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: get nothing. So it has to discriminate. And we should 162 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: do a disclaimer, yeah, which is what Oh, okay, I'll 163 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: do it, yea. So we are fully aware, ladies and gentlemen, 164 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: that we do work for an internet company how stuff works. 165 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: It's our parent company for our range of podcasts, and 166 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: it is AD supported, and it is AD supported, and 167 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: quite a few things online are AD supported. However, I 168 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: will confess to my hypocrisy because I am an enormous 169 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: fan of certain ad blockers, and I completely understand why 170 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: another person would use an ad blocker, especially given as 171 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: you mentioned, the privacy concerns that will get to. Yeah, 172 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: so there's a whole lot of stuff going on for 173 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: reasons why people would consider using an ad blocker, and 174 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: to your point, but not to leave you hanging out there. 175 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: I use ad blockers too sometimes. I sometimes I will 176 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: set exemptions for websites that I think are handling advertising 177 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: in a responsible way, in a non invasive, non uh 178 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: potentially harmful kind of way. So you can you can 179 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: with most ad blockers set filters and say anything on 180 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: this page, go ahead and show me the ad. It's fine. 181 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: White list stuff exactly. So wire dot Com there's an example, 182 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: uh that's on my white list. A couple of others too. 183 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: There's some that want to be on my white list 184 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: that I have not put on there. Cough Forbes cough. Um. 185 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: But we'll get into that too. So there are a 186 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of different reasons, and some of them you could 187 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: argue are more valid than others for people to want 188 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: to use ad blockers. So I'm gonna run through a 189 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: few of those. And also I could say that there 190 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: there's other things you can do, like through your browser itself, 191 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: that that don't necessarily block ads, but block elements of 192 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: ads that you might find particularly irritating. Like yeah, yeah, 193 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: like you can disable video or audio or flash animation, 194 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: or you can not even have flash installed, So that 195 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: also helps. That's tough. That I don't know is, yeah, 196 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of content out there that is dependent 197 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: upon flash and without it, without flash, it makes it harder. 198 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: Another some things have definitely helped by moving to h 199 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: g mL five. Um So, uh, at any rate, let's 200 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: talk about some of the reasons folks block ads. Uh. 201 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: Some of them, like we said, are just obnoxious. They're intrusive. 202 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: They ruin the experience you're trying to have. If you 203 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: are trying to read an article and as you scrolled down, 204 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: a window slides into view, covering up the text you're 205 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: trying to read, and his auto playing some commercial that 206 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: has no bearing on your life whatsoever, that's a bad experience, 207 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: right Like if if I were going on a page 208 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: about a technical gadget and I'm reading and as I 209 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: scrolled down, an ad for diapers comes on, I'm gonna 210 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: be irritated. I don't have a baby, I don't need 211 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: diapers myself. Yet you're not reading about something related to diaper. No, 212 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 1: I'm not reading about the latest in diaper tracking software, 213 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: you know, getting that notification on your app that's time 214 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 1: to change the diaper. I'm not reading any of that. 215 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: That would be a very bad experience. It could be 216 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: I poop, I mean I do. That's I don't want 217 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: to get into it. Yeah, that's uh, probably one that 218 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: we will not pitch that show. Yeah. Uh so that's 219 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 1: one reason. Just just because it's an it can be 220 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: an unpleasant experience, depending upon the way the ad is presented. 221 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: It's disruptive, it is, it is disruptive. Another is that 222 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: it slows downloading time, right because there is this additional 223 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: uh communication that has to happen to pull that information 224 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: in while the page is loading. And we all know 225 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: that we have very little patients to wait around when 226 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: loading website. If you've ever had one of those days 227 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: that here at work where occasionally our network gets a 228 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: little sludgy pandemonium, Oh yeah, you're like you're like typeing 229 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: in even if you're just typing in something like I 230 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: just need to Google something and you're typing in your 231 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: Google search and you hit inner and it's not that 232 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: Point three second response and it takes like a couple 233 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: of seconds. You go nuts. You're like, what is happening? Bandmonium? 234 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: We're one slow internet connection from Sie away from a 235 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: series of knife fights. Yeah no, I mean we have 236 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: the knives here in the office. Right. Um, I personally 237 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: plan on hiding because there's some crazy people in this Yeah, Scott, 238 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: Benjamin's got some moves. He's got to reach to man, 239 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: he's got he's got that armspan. So ads also can 240 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: can take up a lot of bandwidth. Right. That's another 241 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: huge problem because a lot of I s p s 242 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: are using bandwidth caps, especially in the mobile world. So 243 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: both in mobile and my home I s P technically 244 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: have a data cap. Now I have paid extra to 245 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: get out of the cap on both sides, but that's 246 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: because I make enough money where I can pay a 247 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: little extra to do that. That should not be something 248 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that should be encouraged. I think that 249 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: that there's no real good reason for data caps, particularly 250 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: for home networks. Um, but if you have ads activated, 251 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: that's more data that's coming through. That means that not 252 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: only do you not want to see these things, but 253 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: it's taking away your opportunity to see other stuff exactly. Also, also, 254 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: are have you done a data caps episode, Jonathan, I 255 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: haven't because I probably would be frothing at the mouth 256 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: about that the Emperor has no clothes. Yeah, let's just 257 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: say that. Uh, I think some companies can be a 258 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: little bombastic, which rhymes a lot with a certain I 259 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: sp that I'm not happy about. Right, But as you're 260 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: saying that's that's an excellent point because you know, let's 261 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: say you see this ad for diapers and it's a video, right, 262 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: it's an AutoPlay video while you're reading about your latest 263 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: gadget that you're doing research on, and then the chance 264 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: instans of this happening we're very small. But what if 265 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: it's the proverbial feather on your Internet camel back, you 266 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like, if that's the thing that 267 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: happens and then the camel just collapses and you get 268 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: the pop up warning, and if it's a video based advertisement, 269 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, I mean, that takes up a 270 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: more data and and I mean you think about how 271 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: much browsing you do in in a typical month. If 272 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: you are already bumping up against that data cap towards 273 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: the end of the month, like in that last week. 274 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: Ads could be accumulatively across the rest of the month 275 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: be enough to make that happen in the middle of 276 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: the month, a problem magnified or exacerbated for mobile users exactly. 277 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: So that's a reason some people use ad blockers. They say, listen, 278 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: I have a limited amount of data I am allowed 279 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: to access, and I'm bumping up against it, and I 280 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: don't have other options, I mean, other other than just stopping. 281 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: But that's crazy talk, is what that is. And also, finally, well, 282 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: two other things. One is that targeted advertising some people 283 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: find it very off putting, right the idea that let's 284 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: say that's the it's not an ad for diapers that's 285 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: completely irrelevant to my life. Let's say it's an AD 286 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: that's very relevant. Maybe it's I don't know, head wax 287 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: so that I can get my head up to a 288 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: nice glossy finish um. Or maybe it's Hamilton's conversation about Hamilton. 289 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: It could be that, yeah, Hamilton is coming to Atlanta, 290 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: the musical Hamilton's coming to Atlanta, buy your tickets. That's 291 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: an AD that would be precisely targeted to me, and 292 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: I would freak out. I'd say yes, yes, yes, and 293 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: that would be an ad that would work on me 294 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,959 Speaker 1: because I would love to see that show. Um uh, 295 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: if you have Hamilton's tickets, I will happily take them, 296 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 1: all right. So, uh, that's a great example. But there 297 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: are other targeted dads that can be a little scary, right, 298 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: especially for people who are trying to research something that's 299 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: really sensitive. The example that we have given many times 300 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: on this show is the one about Target, where a 301 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: young woman had been browsing Target ended up sending information 302 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: to the young lady about coupons related to being pregnant. 303 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: Her father, uh intercepted essentially the coupons and got very 304 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: mad at Target, saying, how dare you insinuate that my 305 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: daughter is pregnant, and then later contacted Target again and said, 306 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: I would like to apologize to you. I had a 307 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: conversation with my daughter and it turns out that I 308 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: didn't know about it, but turns out my daughter is pregnant. 309 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: But that was one of those instances where you know 310 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: your your online activity might indicate something you're not comfortable 311 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: sharing with the world at large, and even if your 312 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: personal identity is not part of that, it that almost 313 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: doesn't matter, right, Like your name is the least important 314 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: thing about your personal data. What it is you want 315 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: and need that's way more important to advertisers, right, And 316 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: your your habits, your frequency of wanting, needing, and acquiring 317 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: those things. And sometimes that's helpful. Like if you go 318 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: onto a shopping site like Amazon and you it starts 319 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: giving you suggestions based upon things you bought in the past, 320 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: and you might see something it's like, oh, you know what, 321 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I do need that or I didn't even know that 322 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: existed and now I want it. Like based on your 323 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: preferences for the following science fiction stories, we think these 324 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 1: are novels that you will find of interest. Right Hamilton's space, 325 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: that would be right up there. Um. But but there 326 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: are other cases where targeted advertising you might feel that 327 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,959 Speaker 1: that's too much of a threat to your privacy. And 328 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't I can't fault anyone for feeling 329 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: that way. And you might say, look, I don't I 330 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: don't allow cookies. I don't allow any of that stuff 331 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: to kind of trace my my my online behaviors because 332 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: I want it to be just me. Whatever I need 333 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: to research or access, that's it. And that would be 334 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: a reason to install an ad blockers so that you 335 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: don't have that following you around. And then finally, ads 336 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: can sometimes be a vector from malware, and we'll talk 337 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: about that specifically in just a little bit. So that's 338 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: to me, like, those are the reasons a lot of 339 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: people give for why they install ad blockers, and I think, 340 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 1: you know, again to varying degrees, they're valid. Uh. And 341 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: there's some interesting arguments about why ad blockers shouldn't be 342 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: condemned or outlawed, why they they serve a purpose and 343 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: content providers should not make a big deal out of this. Now, 344 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: the reason we bring this up is that more and 345 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: more content providers are using means to detect when an 346 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: AD blockers in place, right, and you'll get a notification 347 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: uh that says we see that you're using an ad 348 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: blocking service, right. And this this notification from the website 349 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: has has a range of responses, so you may see 350 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: something that says we see your using an app blocker. 351 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: We get it. Ads are annoying, but this is our 352 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: business and this is how we make money. To the 353 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: furthest extreme, which which I think we already alluded to Forbes. Yeah, 354 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: where the website is crippled or restricted unless you turn 355 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: off an app block And I get it again. We 356 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: work for a company that makes money through advertising, and 357 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: I I get the need to say, look, I gotta 358 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: protect my business. I can't just let people quote unquote 359 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: steal stuff, right. I can't let people walk in take things. 360 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: And there's no means for me to generate revenue because 361 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: then I can't pay the people who work for me. 362 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: If I can't pay the people who work for me, 363 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: I go out of business. And then you don't have 364 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: the content in the first place. That is a valid argument, right, 365 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: that's valid to say, Look, I have to be able 366 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: to generate revenue in order to do the thing you want. 367 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: You came to me buster, you put in my address 368 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: in your little U r L bar, or you did 369 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: a search and followed the link. So I have something 370 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: you want, but you want it for free, and I 371 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: can't perpetually give it away for free because then I 372 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: can't pay the rent, I can't buy food. I we 373 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: have to have this exchange for this to work. I 374 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: get that. But some people say, listen, condemning the ad 375 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: blockers is the wrong way to go. And here is 376 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: the reasoning it sounds a lot like the same reasons 377 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: people say piracy doesn't ultimately matter that much online. What okay, 378 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: I'm scooting to the edge of So here's the argument. 379 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: The argument is that the people who install ad blockers 380 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: are the people who would otherwise be ignoring your ads 381 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: anyway a self selecting sample. Yeah, they would be. They 382 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: would be the ones that ads would not be effective 383 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: on them. They don't want the ads, they don't see 384 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: the ads. They're blocking the ads mainly because they just 385 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: don't even want the distraction there. So these are these 386 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: are lost revenue. They're never going their impressions don't matter. 387 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: They are never going to buy those diapers. Yes, and 388 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: so the argument is that if you factor in their impressions, 389 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: if you were to say, okay, no ad blockers, then 390 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: the people who figure out the rates for advertising, the 391 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: ones who say, here's how much it's worth to display 392 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: an AD on your site. If they say, well, you 393 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: don't allow ad blockers, and you've got exper you know, 394 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: X number of visitors per month, we estimate that a 395 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: certain percentage of those let's say thirty would normally use 396 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: ad blockers if you allowed it, that is worthless to us. 397 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: So it dilutes the value of advertising on your web 398 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,479 Speaker 1: page because you're forcing them to look at something that 399 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: doesn't work for them, which means it's it's a lost 400 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: cause you can't count those numbers and say that's a success. 401 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: You can't say these This thirty percent of people who 402 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: saw your ad means that it's worth x amount because 403 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: they're worthless and so uh to to see the analog 404 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: in the piracy argument there, assume it would be the 405 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: same thing that such a person who pirates torrents downloads 406 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: illegally streams some sort of video. Let's let's go with 407 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones. Sure, okay, so someone who is stealing 408 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, which I believe still holds the record 409 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: for the most torrented. I'm pretty sure that every time 410 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: that a new season debuts that breaks the record. Yeah, 411 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: so people around the world are stealing the holy heck 412 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: out of this thing. But would they have uh, would 413 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: they have paid for an HBO subscription? Would or HBO 414 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: now right? Would they have gone through a regular channel anyway? 415 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: And the answer is it's impossible to say, but it 416 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: appears that there are lots of people out there who 417 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: will pirate something. Uh. And the really easy examples are 418 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: the ones that like movies that a lot of people 419 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: aren't feeling very strongly about beforehand, Like like there was 420 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: the Wolverine film, Wolverine the Origins film, and it was 421 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: getting panned by critics, and it got pirate it like crazy, 422 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: and then you had the studios say, hey, you've stolen 423 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: revenue from us, and the private said, we weren't going 424 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: to pay to see your movie at all. So really 425 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: the option was we steal your movie and watch it, 426 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: which granted for you, stinks, or or we don't see 427 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: the movie at all, but either way you don't get 428 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: any money. Like so, so, uh, that's that's a I mean, 429 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: it's a weird argument to make saying like, well, you're 430 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: not losing revenue because you wouldn't have made it anyway. 431 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: You would not have made those sales, So saying that 432 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: the piracy cost you sales is disingenuous. But saying that 433 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: people are accessing your content without paying for it fairly, 434 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: that's a that's totally legitimate. That's a completely legitimate argument. 435 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a perspective issue, right, 436 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 1: It depends on what you're arguing for. If you're saying 437 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: you're costing me because otherwise you would have bought this thing. 438 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: That may not hold true. But if you're saying you're 439 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: stealing something I made and really you should pay for it, 440 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: that's that's a different argument. So those are that's kind 441 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: of laying the groundwork for the rest of our conversation here. 442 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: Let's start with, um, well, let's start with some just 443 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: some thoughts, like when when I talked about that targeted advertising, 444 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: we mentioned the example, Um, have you ever really looked 445 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: into that at all for stuff they don't want you 446 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: to know or anything related to that. Yes, yeah, the 447 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: example of your you're talking about the kid right, predicting 448 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: the birth. Yes, we have looked at this in a 449 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: couple of different ways, and one of the one of 450 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: the ways that we looked into it most often would 451 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: be the concerns of big big data. Big data, the 452 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: information that people just emanate or create through their passage online. 453 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: Picture your average day on the internet, like one of 454 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: those old family circuits comic strips with the map and 455 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: the little dotted line and those accumulated Billy goes running 456 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: around the neighbor exactly, God, Billy walking a straight line. 457 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: You know what, I mean right. But but this is 458 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: a good comparison because those breadcrumbs, those accumulated dashes of 459 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: our secuitous lines in our day to day traffic, establish 460 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: a precedent, establish a pattern, and most people, most Internet users, 461 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: are astonished when they see how accurate or how sophisticated 462 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: the profile painted of them can become. You know you 463 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: may say I have a collection of different passwords. You 464 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: may say you know you. And I earlier did an 465 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: episode on whether it's possible to be anonymous on the Internet, 466 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: and it is possible, but it is such a pain 467 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: in the key start right, and and the more activity 468 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: you do, the less possible it becomes. Exactly because while 469 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: again like when I said, your name is the least 470 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: important piece of information about you, it really is. People 471 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: don't need to know your name to know who you 472 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: are based upon the things that are important to them, 473 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: which is why it is again I love to use 474 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: the word disingenuous, which is it's disingenuous as well to 475 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: say this data is uh is anonymous? You know yeah? 476 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: Because all sorts of little data points point to who 477 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: you are as a person, even if it doesn't give 478 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: you a first and last name, right, it's like saying 479 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: these fingerprints are anonymous, there's still somebody's fingerprints exactly, And 480 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: and the stuff we leave behind, it's kind of like 481 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: a digital fingerprint, and uh. And some of that information 482 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: might be stuff that a lot of people know about us, 483 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: like the Hamilton's thing. Ben clearly knows about it. Of 484 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: course we talked about it before video. But but that's 485 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: something that you know, people know who know me, they 486 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 1: know that I'm a big fan of musicals. But then 487 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: there may be other stuff that you don't want people 488 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: to know. Let's see, there's a let's say you have 489 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: you are someone close to you as a medical dishes, right, right, 490 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: and you don't want people to you know, you don't 491 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: want people to know, for instance, that let's just say 492 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: your partner or your spouse is being tested for some 493 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: sort of cancer, right that that's none of anyone else's 494 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: business but me and my spouse. Right. That's a that's 495 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: an example that is perfectly cromulent in this case, right. 496 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: And I know it's an extreme one, right right, But 497 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: it's it's anything like that, right, anything where it's like 498 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: it's not that I'm ashamed of something that I've done 499 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: something wrong far from it. It's just that it's a 500 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: piece of information I don't want to share with the 501 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: rest of the world. Our activities online can inadvertently, in 502 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: some cases give that information to third parties which may 503 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: use it in order to try and profit from it. 504 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: Not necessarily maliciously either. It's that's where the targeted advertising 505 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: comes in, and you get this targeted ad that is 506 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: again not milicious, it's necessarily we'll talk about malicious ads 507 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: in a minute. Um, not malicious in intent, but it 508 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: could have a negative impact on your experience of being 509 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: online because then you think I thought I was being careful. 510 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: I thought no one knew, but now someone knows. Now 511 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: I logged into Facebook after I was logged out of Facebook, 512 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: by the way, those are some pernicious cookies. After I 513 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: was logged out of Facebook ostensibly and checked on uh, 514 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: learned about the specific type of cancer my spouse might 515 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: have came logged in, And now I see an ad 516 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: for a cancer clinic and hoping with cancer And that's etrusive. 517 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: That is offensive. Yeah, it's it is to a point 518 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: where like that is not the direction that I think 519 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people we're thinking about when they started 520 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: thinking about the potential or targeted ads like absolutely not. 521 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: The ideal situation is that the ads you see are 522 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: the ones that are relevant to you in your situation 523 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: and ones that would be effective in getting you to 524 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: purchase a product or service. And because that's ultimately what 525 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: ads are for. Ads are there to inform you and 526 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: convince you need this thing or service or whatever it 527 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: may be. And and if it's done well, then everyone's 528 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: happy because we all get access to the stuff we want. 529 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: We see things that we want to purchase. UH. The 530 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: advertisers succeed in what they're doing, their clients succeed, everyone 531 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: is happy. The problem is that that's a very narrow 532 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: band of the overall experience that people have had with 533 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: targeted advertising. UH, and again has led to this realm 534 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: of this this this culture where ad blockers are seen 535 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: as being a UH perfectly legitimate response to that. And 536 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: it's funny because you know, we've both talked about how 537 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: we admitted to UH using ad blockers. I was amazed 538 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: at how many articles I came across us where they're 539 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: written on websites that have advertising by employees of that website, 540 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: and the employees are saying, yeah, I use ad blockers 541 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: to right, like to the point where you're sitting there 542 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: thinking like, wow, this is pretty heavy stuff when you're 543 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: seeing it from other journalists. And in fact, there was 544 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: an editor, Duncan Riley, a publisher, in fact Duncan Riley 545 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: who wrote in Silicon Angle dot com a piece that 546 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: came out today, in fact, April twenty nine is when 547 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: we're recording this two thousand and sixteen, and the the 548 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: title of the pieces confession of a long time publisher. 549 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: I now use an ad blocker and I like it. 550 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: And the piece kind of lays out the same sort 551 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: of things we've been talking about already and mentions that 552 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: there's already a problem here. The big problem is that 553 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: advertising has become so obnoxious that it has it is. 554 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: It is counterproductive, It is doing opposite of what it 555 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: is intended to do. It is driving people away, not 556 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: bringing people in. Right then, and to the point where 557 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: people are looking at advertisement not as a vast series 558 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: of varying cases, but as one monolithic thing. Yeah and yeah, 559 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: and well and really, it doesn't take that many really 560 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: bad experiences to paint with abroad with broad strokes, right, 561 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,919 Speaker 1: because you get something like a truly awful experience. That's 562 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: enough to commence people to say, well, even for the 563 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: ads that are not that bad, I'd rather go ahead 564 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: and use an ad blocker to avoid the ones that 565 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: are that bad, even if I only encounter those rarely. 566 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: And part of the problem there is a question of 567 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: evolution and learning curve because a lot of targeted advertising 568 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: functions in an automated fashion. Yeah, yeah, no, there's no 569 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: person there to apply compassion and judgment. There's no one. 570 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 1: There's no one saying y'all constricted in day. I feel 571 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: like it's time for some diapers, right right, Yeah, there's 572 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: no diaper's buttons behind the scenes. I wish there were. 573 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: It would be hilarious to see, like there's just some 574 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: some mischievous, impish person sitting behind the scenes with a 575 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: massive panel of button and different buttons for different things on'es, 576 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: Like one's like cheaper razor blades. Jonathan, you've been shifting 577 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: in your seat. Here's an adverse tools softener. I think, 578 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: what the heck is going on? Well, well, gaing him 579 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: up to an eye poop, that's right, we'll be pitching 580 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: that later. So one of the other things that duncan 581 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: Riley pointed out in this piece that I thought was interesting. 582 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: He said that the other big push in online advertising 583 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: right now, apart from video ads, which I mean that 584 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: because a mobile the mobile experience, video ads has become 585 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: a big thing, the other skip this out in five 586 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: yea exactly, the big the big one is um native advertising, 587 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,399 Speaker 1: which uh, to you guys out there may not mean 588 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: very much two people in our position, it means our 589 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: worst nightmare. So what is native advertising for people who 590 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: are not because that's a little bit of an insight 591 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,000 Speaker 1: baseball term. Native advertising is when you get paid by 592 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: a company to produce a specific piece of content, typically 593 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: one that supports that company's products, also known as advertorial. Yes, 594 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of like if you do it really 595 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: really well, which is very hard to do. But if 596 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: you do it really really well, it can still be informative, 597 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: it can still be entertaining, and it can still do 598 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: the purpose of advertising whatever the product or services without 599 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: it feeling absolutely creepy on the part of the person 600 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: who had to write it. But it is really hard 601 00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, it can feel creepy for the 602 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 1: people creating this, because native advertising can put someone in 603 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: an ethical dilemma wherein, for instance, let's say Jonathan and 604 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: I have a have a show wherein we are going 605 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: to do a tech stuff about the technology behind strip mining. Alright, 606 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: what I mean? And while we're exploring that, naturally you 607 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: and I would say, well, here are some things you 608 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: need to know about strip mining. Here. Here's like the 609 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: environmental impact of strip mining. Right, here's the historical significance, 610 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: the political battles that have happened over strip mining. Here's 611 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: how it has affected people who live in areas where 612 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: strip mining happened. But if it were a piece of 613 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: native advertising where a mining company had paid for it, 614 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: and they said, all right, you can do pieces on it, 615 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: just don't mention any of those things, right right, and 616 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: don't call it strip mine. We have a new term, 617 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: we call it um mineral hugs. Yeah, then then that 618 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: would be problematic. And as as as Riley points out, 619 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: he says that um that you eventually end up with 620 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: advertising pretending to be editorial. He says, and that not 621 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: only sucks if not labeled properly, it's downright dishonest and 622 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: constitutes deceiving your readers. And we know you guys are smart, right, 623 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: Like the people who are in the writer and editorial departments. 624 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: We know you're smart. We know that you can tell 625 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 1: when something is something is like that, oh buddy, yeah. 626 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: The anyone on the internet, although you'll hear all these 627 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: stereotypes of people being credulous in general, more so than 628 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: a radio or television audience, people who listen to podcasts, 629 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: people who go online for their news or entertainment are 630 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: very very aware of this. They can sense. They can 631 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: like like Matt Murdoch, well, for one thing, one thing, 632 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: we've been sold to all our lives. We in America, 633 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: we have grown up in a culture of advertising and selling, 634 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: and after a while you get good at recognizing it. Right. 635 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: So that's uh that That's an argument that often comes 636 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: up when it when it gets down to sales versus editorial, 637 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: which not doesn't happen that frequently, but it has happened. 638 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: Then the editorial will say, listen, this is a road 639 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: we don't want to go down because it is a 640 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: bad experience for our audience. They recognize what it is 641 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: right away. It is very hard to do well, and 642 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't work for the advertiser right. It doesn't do 643 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: anyone any favors. It tells the audience we don't, we don't, 644 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: we don't value your intelligence. We don't think that you're 645 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: smart enough to realize that this is essentially an advertisement. 646 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: You're reading. Um, and the audience ends up saying, well, 647 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: if you don't value me, I don't value you, let 648 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: alone the products you're trying to sell. So I'm out 649 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: and we knew this and um, and so native advertising 650 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: is one of those things that again, if you do 651 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: it very transparently and if you are very careful, I 652 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: think you can do it well if you have a 653 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: separation of I guess the separation church and state in 654 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: a way. That's a phrase that we've used before wherein 655 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: So let's say, just just for an example, let's say, 656 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, that Jonathan does a show for just 657 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: your average everyday podcast, right it's text stuff does text stuff. 658 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: Episode is approached and by someone who wants him to 659 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: do some native advertising for let's see a cell phone. Sure, right, 660 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: those are popular and uh then Jonathan, with the editorial oversight, 661 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: would say, well, if we do this, I want it 662 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: to be clear this is brought to you by you 663 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: know whomever, and just say, like, so, people who list 664 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: into it from the very beginning. They know what they're 665 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: getting into and that they trust me to give them 666 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: information that is uh, that is honest. It may be 667 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: that due to that agreement there's certain things I'm not 668 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: allowed to talk about for whatever reason, But as long 669 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: as I'm completely honest upfront and just say, you know, 670 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: this is UH, this this episode is brought to you 671 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 1: by so and so. We're going to talk about their 672 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: product today. Here's what I have to say about it. Um, 673 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: that's that's okay. It's even better if they give you 674 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: full editorial control where you can, like you you can say, like, 675 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 1: can I say things that may be a little critical 676 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: of the product, as long as I'm being fair, Like 677 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 1: I'm not attacking, but I'm I'm bringing up concerns people 678 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: have had because if I don't do it, my listeners 679 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 1: will being objective being at the forefront of this with 680 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: what I love about the line of argument we're looking 681 00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: at here is that the editor the publisher question is 682 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. It's a new it's a more evolved form 683 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:13,239 Speaker 1: of targeted advertising, because then the target becomes not just uh, 684 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: someone who looked at someone who googled something three times 685 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: in the past week. It becomes any audience member that 686 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: trusts you and that and then all of a sudden, 687 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,919 Speaker 1: there there's this prepackaged demographic. Assuming that you have any 688 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,320 Speaker 1: you know, perceived integrity and reputation, then then absolutely know 689 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,800 Speaker 1: your reputation proceeds you. My I'd like to think that 690 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: people believe I have integrity. If you do not think 691 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: I have integrity, please feel free to feel free to 692 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: send an email to stuff you should know with this, 693 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: with this targeting stuff, As you said, it is difficult 694 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: to do, it can be done, It can be done well. 695 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: For example, The Daily Show under John Stewart's regime. Under 696 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: John Stewart's run on the show, Uh, they had Arby's 697 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: as a sponsor, right, And what was hilarious about it 698 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 1: is every time they brought up Arby's they talked massive 699 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: amounts of trash about Arby's. Yeah, but but to the 700 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: point where Arby's got the joke and they incorporated the 701 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: joke themselves on on on his last episode, there was 702 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,720 Speaker 1: like a statement from arby saying we'll miss you John, 703 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: and I just thought like that's amazing, Like how many 704 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: companies do you know, yeah that would say like look 705 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: this is this. They're having fun. They're not really trying 706 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: to damage our brand. That's not what it's really about. 707 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: Let's just have fun too. I mean that's a hard 708 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: decision to make, because if you feel your brand is 709 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: under attack, then you know you want to go on 710 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,879 Speaker 1: the offenses it as possible. Right. So that's the reason 711 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: why a certain bombastic cable provider hasn't just gone the 712 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: whole nine yards yet and use the monopoly Man in 713 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: Darth Vader as their sponsors, right or as their mascots. Yeah. Ben, 714 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: as it turned out, you and I talked a lot 715 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: more what about ads than we anticipated. I thought this 716 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: was gonna be like a forty minute conversation. It turned 717 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: out to be about an hour and twenty minutes, and 718 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: that's pretty long for an episode of tech Stuff. So 719 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 1: so in order to preserve the sanity of my listeners, 720 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: I thought we might cut it off here, post the 721 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,680 Speaker 1: recording and pick up where we left off next week. 722 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: So let people know where they can find your work. Ah, Yes, 723 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: what you're waiting for the next episode of our series 724 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: on target advertising here at tech Stuff. Why not visit 725 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know where and you 726 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: can find tech Stuff host John it Than Strickland exploring 727 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: the darker side of technology in our show, which covers 728 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, corruption, allegations of the paranormal and more more more, 729 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: more nice is that cool? I do my own post 730 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: and that's it's good now you know that way we 731 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: decrease the load on the publication side. And guys, if 732 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: you have any suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, 733 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: why don't you write them to me because shouting them 734 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: out the window hasn't been helping. The email addresses tech 735 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: Stuff at health stuff works dot com. And remember you 736 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: can also get in touch with me on social networking. 737 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: You can use Twitter or Facebook, and both of those 738 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: use the handle text stuff hs W to get your 739 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,080 Speaker 1: message to me, as in, use that one to direct 740 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: your message at. Don't actually use tex stuff HSW. That's mine. 741 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: Keep your filthy myths off of it. So until next time, 742 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: I hope. Yeah, guys, have a great one and I 743 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:04,360 Speaker 1: will talk to you again about ads really send for 744 00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is that 745 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Wh