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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 1: another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 1: Tracy, what do you think the rich people are doing

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Speaker 1: these days? You know, Like, I know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like big business people lining up or who have

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Speaker 1: lined up behind the Trump administration. But they have to

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Speaker 1: be kind of anxious, right because things like mass tariffs

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Speaker 1: and so forth, talk about reducing the role of the

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Speaker 1: dollar and global tra it has got to make them

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Speaker 1: kind of anxious.

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Speaker 2: I actually know the answer to this.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, as a person, no.

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Speaker 2: Because the New York Fed publishes a survey of consumer

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Speaker 2: sentiment where you can break it out by pay bracket,

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Speaker 2: and so the high pay bracket, it's probably not the

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Speaker 2: super super rich, but it is pretty rich. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're getting worried for all the reasons you just laid out.

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Speaker 1: But I do think if you exist in a pay

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Speaker 1: bracket that already sort of.

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Speaker 2: Suggests that you're not that right, not the real You're

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Speaker 2: not the real. You know, you're getting a pair what

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Speaker 2: high standards you have to But anyway, I think these

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Speaker 2: are really interesting times.

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Speaker 1: Needless to say, for the globe, for people who have money,

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Speaker 1: for people who have feet around the world where they

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Speaker 1: want to bet. You know, one of the things I

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Speaker 1: wrote about it last week were recording this March twenty fifth.

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Speaker 1: You know, one of the big trades that really had

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Speaker 1: been characterized the last fifteen years is like bet on

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Speaker 1: the US, literally against everything right by the S and

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Speaker 1: P five just you know, you get no payment for

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Speaker 1: global diversification. You didn't make any money in China, you

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Speaker 1: lost money, you didn't get any pay for em you

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Speaker 1: didn't really get anything in Europe at least for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks. So far this year, that's reversed pretty sharply,

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Speaker 1: and so one question is like, if you want glory,

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Speaker 1: should you look outside the US borders?

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Speaker 2: Right diversification finally potentially paying off, although again it's only

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Speaker 2: been like three weeks, but we have seen a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, in fact, we've recorded episodes about this talking

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Speaker 2: about how this is a huge sea change in global politics,

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Speaker 2: potentially in global markets as well. This big moment, similar

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Speaker 2: to the fall of the Soviet Union, something that could

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Speaker 2: forever alter Europe's economic and political and security paths. So

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Speaker 2: we'll see.

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Speaker 1: Big things are happening in Germany is like, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: spend hundreds of billions of dollars on defense. They've really

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Speaker 1: never done that. It's a change. So anyway, I'm really

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Speaker 1: excited about our guest, someone I've known and talked to

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Speaker 1: numerous times over the years, but we've never had on

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Speaker 1: the podcast, luminary in the Worlds of journalism, previously a

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Speaker 1: financial journalist, an interesting guy who suddenly popped up. He

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Speaker 1: started posting again recently, and so that'll I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe here's in New York City these days, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be speaking with Nick Denton. He used to work

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Speaker 1: at the Ft, used to work and he wrote a

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Speaker 1: book and many most people would probably know him as

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Speaker 1: the founder of the Gawker family of websites. He currently

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Speaker 1: is a new thing called a Futua Kiato. He's gonna

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Speaker 1: be some sort of journalism trading kind of hybrid. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we'll find out what that is. Nick, Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on Odd Lots.

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Speaker 3: It's gonna be fun.

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Speaker 1: I have a question. I've known you for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but I've never asked you this. I actually don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer to this. Well, how would you describe your

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Speaker 1: political ideology. The reason I ask is that, you know.

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Speaker 2: Like, starting with an easy.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna like say, like the most awkward intro

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Speaker 1: to a guest ever. Your former company, Gawker was put

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Speaker 1: into bankruptcy in large part due to Peter Thiel. But

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Speaker 1: then I've talked to us, like I kind of think

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Speaker 1: he has like some like teallite sympathies at times, which

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Speaker 1: is a weird thing to say, but i'd like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm sort of picking up on some of that. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm wrong. Are you like quietly

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Speaker 1: based how would.

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Speaker 4: You I remember a conversation with you actually on Twitter,

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Speaker 4: I mean a DM conversation and maybe twenty six twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 4: at the end of which you said, oh, maybe preference

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Speaker 4: falsification is happening on a very very wide scale. So

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Speaker 4: I think you may have been surprised back then at

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Speaker 4: the time. I would call myself a libertarian back in

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Speaker 4: Gorka days, but I don't think that's really accurate, okay,

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Speaker 4: because I.

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Speaker 1: Think, what do you know, just a liberal?

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Speaker 4: No, I'm probably an authoritarian, growth oriented follower of leak

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Speaker 4: one you and to a lesser extent, But thanks you

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Speaker 4: oping benevolent authoritarianism.

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Speaker 1: Okay, full contact alright, Tracy.

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Speaker 2: So Joe mentioned that you are a long time journalist,

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Speaker 2: a veteran journalist, and I think you started your career

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine covering the fall of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 2: And as I mentioned in the intro, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are kind of reaching for that analogy in describing

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Speaker 2: this moment in Europe. Do you think that holds is?

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Speaker 2: Are we seeing a shift on that kind of scale?

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess Nia Ferguson's piece we are all Soviets

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Speaker 4: Now was the one that got people thinking in these terms.

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Speaker 4: And then you know, yes, I was in Eastern Europe

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Speaker 4: in eighty nine and that was a very classic empire,

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Speaker 4: Soviet Empire, and a very classic uprising against it, demonstrations, unions, protests.

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Speaker 3: And eventually a complete collapse of legitimacy.

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Speaker 4: This American empire is definitely more subtle and been around

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Speaker 4: twice as long, a say, more subtle, more subtle, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: keep going hidden empire.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think there's a book with that.

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Speaker 4: Name eighty years rather than forty. You know, it's been

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Speaker 4: a lot longer. It didn't end immediately with the fall

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Speaker 4: of the arm Curtain, and I think it's been in

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Speaker 4: all our heads as Europeans for a long time. You know,

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Speaker 4: I come from My father was an Atlanticist. I was

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Speaker 4: an Atlanticist. I saw the United States as being an

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Speaker 4: extension of Europe, a place where Europe had gone to

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Speaker 4: seek new adventures and new continents and new industries. And

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Speaker 4: that dream is utterly gone.

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Speaker 1: Because you still, you know, you have the World Economic

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Speaker 1: Forums of the world. Does anyone believe it anymore?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the polls.

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Speaker 4: The Poles still seem to believe it for well, the polls,

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Speaker 4: and you know, in some English. But I think for

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Speaker 4: me the two key incidents not the abuse of Zelensky

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Speaker 4: in the Oval office, but the abuse of Denmark, a loyal,

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Speaker 4: small but loyal American ally.

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Speaker 1: The country that actually is arguably very much in alignment

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Speaker 1: on immigration policies.

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Speaker 4: Well, if you're going to talk about civilizational suicide, I

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Speaker 4: don't exactly know how you fit Denmark into that. Where

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Speaker 4: the social Democrats have actually stolen the entire agenda of

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Speaker 4: the of the right wing in Denmark, and as a

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Speaker 4: result there is really not much of a right wing

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Speaker 4: resurgence anymore or in Denmark, so Denmark totally chose the

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Speaker 4: way for a lot of social democratic parties in Europe.

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Speaker 4: So there was that, and then there was the abuse

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Speaker 4: of Radics Sakowski, you know, one of the prime atlantisists

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Speaker 4: in Poland calling it, you know, Elon Musk, you know,

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Speaker 4: with an assist from Marco Rubio telling him to be quiet,

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Speaker 4: little man. Now that might just seem petty on my

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Speaker 4: behalf to focus on that, but you're talking about, you know,

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Speaker 4: somebody who was absolutely in the American camp. And so

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Speaker 4: if they're abusing somebody like Radis Sikorski, they clearly don't

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Speaker 4: care at all about the Western Alliance.

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Speaker 2: And you're actually leaving the US now, right, Why have

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Speaker 2: you been here?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, to some extend, I've been gone since the end

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Speaker 4: of twenty sixteen. We came back for family reasons, and

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Speaker 4: now we're going for good selling the apartment.

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Speaker 2: How come?

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Speaker 4: I mean I was one hundred percent in US assets

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Speaker 4: pretty much in January, both in terms of stocks, real

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Speaker 4: estate and everything, and now it's pretty much for stocks

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Speaker 4: are one hundred percent China and Southeast Asia well, and

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Speaker 4: the real estates. We just got a nice, loved little

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Speaker 4: house in the Buddha Hills.

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Speaker 2: So you're you're diversifying in your portfolio, and in real life, I.

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Speaker 4: Guess the diversified portfolio would be something like US fifteen,

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Speaker 4: China fifty, rest of the world thirty five percent, something

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Speaker 4: like that. So I'm obviously not not doing that because

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Speaker 4: I think the adjustment is going to be an opportunity

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Speaker 4: for people to make money. So I guess it's going

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Speaker 4: to end up more or less where electricity production divides

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Speaker 4: up in the world. You know, I come from an

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Speaker 4: emerging markets reporting background too, where you couldn't really believe

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Speaker 4: any of the statistics.

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Speaker 3: You couldn't believe the GDP numbers.

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Speaker 4: The only numbers you couldlready believe maybe output and tradable sectors,

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Speaker 4: electricity output, that kind of thing. And so that's that

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Speaker 4: tends to be how I've looked at the markets now.

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Speaker 1: So you're going to be living full time. The Buddha

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Speaker 1: Hill looks very very nice part of Budapest. Who should

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Speaker 1: I believe about Orbon Should I believe Tucker that he's

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Speaker 1: a great defender of civilization or should I believe the

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Speaker 1: liberals that he's completely corrupted, not a friend at all?

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Speaker 4: I mean something in between a new orban, a bit

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Speaker 4: early on back in eighty nine when I was with

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Speaker 4: the FT for whatever four years in Budapest, and he

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Speaker 4: was always the most talented of his generation as a politician.

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Speaker 4: Clearly knew how to play the game, and clearly knows

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Speaker 4: how to play the game now, having channels open to China,

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Speaker 4: Russia and the United States and playing a small country's

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Speaker 4: hand really rather well. There's a giant BYD factory in Hungary,

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Speaker 4: there's a giant Coatl factory in Hungary. If it actually

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Speaker 4: comes down to it, I think most of Hunger's economic

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Speaker 4: interests are actually China aligned, So I think that's where

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Speaker 4: they'll end up forced. But there's no harm in maintaining channels.

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Speaker 3: With the other powers.

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Speaker 2: Just going back back to the intro, we were talking

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Speaker 2: about whether or not let's call them the global elite,

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Speaker 2: are feeling anxious at the moment. I think it's fair

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Speaker 2: to say you probably move in some of those circles

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Speaker 2: ultra wealthy. What are people saying right now, Like, what's

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Speaker 2: the mood music that you're hearing?

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Speaker 3: Well, we're going to.

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Speaker 4: Talk about antisemitism or not definitely, Okay, it's free, free space.

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Speaker 4: So when globalists get the blame for what was actually

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Speaker 4: at that time. I think only a five percent or

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Speaker 4: seven percent correction. When Trump blame globalists, I think it's

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Speaker 4: a foretaste of what will happen if there is a

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Speaker 4: significant repricing of assets in America the globalists quote unquote

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Speaker 4: globalists or is is it like four brackets?

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Speaker 3: I forget what the code is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there the three parentheses.

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Speaker 4: So the Cosmopolitans, the internationals to quote unquote European Wall

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Speaker 4: Street Journal, like any anything that seems internettional. Anybody who's

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Speaker 4: ever been to Davos or maybe just the Swiss Alps

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Speaker 4: full stop is going to come under suspicion and they

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Speaker 4: are going to be their life is going to be uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: In the States, I think it's going to be uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: They're going to be attacked from the left for being capitalist,

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Speaker 4: and they'll be attacked from the right for being unpatriotic.

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Speaker 4: And I think people are going to find, as they

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Speaker 4: did during the kind of the looting phase of the

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty protests, that there is no real sympathy for

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Speaker 4: the Soho Loft Duweller in an environment like this when

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Speaker 4: people are actually asking, so where did all the money go?

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Speaker 4: Where did all the money of the last twenty five years,

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Speaker 4: you know, during the during this period of American and exceptionalism,

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Speaker 4: when America was really the only place to put your

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Speaker 4: money if you wanted to invest your time or your

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Speaker 4: money in the future.

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Speaker 3: So where did it all go? What was left at

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Speaker 3: the end of it?

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Speaker 4: What's the high speed rail network?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: Where are the new companies? And I think those questions

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Speaker 4: are going to be very hard for people to answer.

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Speaker 1: These are the thoughts that I have, like late at night,

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Speaker 1: crawling up my phone, and then I wake up and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, like make my kids breakfast, and I

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Speaker 1: go to the work and it's fine and it's fun.

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Speaker 1: I love coming in here. And then like ten o'clock

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Speaker 1: at night, that's is like my mind. Oh too, So

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Speaker 1: like I was hoping, you know, want.

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Speaker 4: Have you spent Have you spent much time just playing

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Speaker 4: around with Ai?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: He spends so much time playing around with AI, so

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Speaker 2: much office time.

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Speaker 4: What were you going to say, Well, un enormous circumstances,

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Speaker 4: I'd said, like, this transition would take a good long time.

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Speaker 4: You know, historically it takes decades, not years. But since

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Speaker 4: January twentieth, and I don't mean the Trumpe inauguration, and

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Speaker 4: I don't mean the Roman.

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Speaker 3: Salute by l or must but I mean the deep

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Speaker 3: seat drop.

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Speaker 4: Since January twentieth, I think it's actually clear that AI

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Speaker 4: is universal. It's going to be everywhere in every country,

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Speaker 4: on every chip. And one of the first things that

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Speaker 4: people are going to do with it is they're going

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Speaker 4: to ask how to make money, and then they ask

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Speaker 4: more sophisticated questions and have more sophisticated methods of working

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Speaker 4: out how to make money.

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Speaker 2: So you're doing something with this right, Like you have

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Speaker 2: a new venture where you're using AI to trade or

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Speaker 2: to research for trade.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just started.

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Speaker 4: I started actually doing a simple analysis of the electric

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Speaker 4: car market, projecting forward byd in Tesla sales to twenty thirty,

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Speaker 4: just to see.

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Speaker 3: Where it would end up.

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Speaker 4: And you know, to look at the you know who

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Speaker 4: is in the lead at every single level of the

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Speaker 4: value chain. And then you know, when you've got an

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Speaker 4: army of researchers that you're back and call, and you

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Speaker 4: know how to manage them well enough, you can get.

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Speaker 3: Pretty robust answers pretty quickly.

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Speaker 4: You know, our answers that then lead to you to

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Speaker 4: make trades that maybe you wouldn't have had the confidence

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Speaker 4: to make otherwise. And I think I'm not the only one.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's recursive that we all know that

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Speaker 4: we're all working more and more like this, and as

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Speaker 4: we recognize this in other people, so the feedback loops accelerate,

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Speaker 4: and so system changes that might have taken decades get

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Speaker 4: compressed into months or years.

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Speaker 3: That's my theory.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually not still totally convinced, you know, Like I've

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Speaker 1: I use AI tract kidding, I mean I do, and

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Speaker 1: I've used like deep research and many of them. I

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Speaker 1: still think it's just a tremendous amount of garbage. And

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Speaker 1: I don't say this, but I also want to. It's

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Speaker 1: funny when you are answer when you're talking about AI.

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Speaker 1: I could only imagine if chatipt you'd come out like

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, what you would have devised to torment Gawker writers,

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Speaker 1: something about making them compete with AI and very you know,

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Speaker 1: because all media organs have this like anxiety about well,

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Speaker 1: this is actually pretty good at writing, except and then

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Speaker 1: the journalists like you would have loved. You would have

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Speaker 1: loved torturing your writers in some way by making.

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Speaker 4: Them Competit prefers the torture the ais to compete with

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Speaker 4: each other.

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Speaker 1: But you would have you would have gotten a kick

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Speaker 1: out of it, I feel like, and they would have

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Speaker 1: really hated you for it.

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Speaker 3: Okay. I think that some kinds of journalists.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say you're abso the run of the mill journalists,

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Speaker 4: but some kinds of journalists are extremely well equipped. I

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Speaker 4: don't think they recognize the talents they have, and that

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Speaker 4: are ability to ask good questions or to play games

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Speaker 4: with somebody else who actually has information. But you want

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Speaker 4: to get out of them that their skill and playing

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Speaker 4: that game is actually is very is very powerful right now,

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Speaker 4: that they could be traders if they wanted to be, especially.

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Speaker 1: You, No, especially about me. I don't have to go.

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Speaker 2: What's been your best trade so far this year?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good question, let's trader.

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Speaker 2: I guess by d and Zaomi and that was based

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Speaker 2: on your AI research.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd look.

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Speaker 4: I've been into electric cars for a while. I'm a

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Speaker 4: gadget head. I look at things from a consumer standpoint,

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Speaker 4: not a producer standpoint. That's always what we sought to

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Speaker 4: do with Gizmoto and Kataku and Jelopnik and the other

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Speaker 4: consumer technology properties that we had.

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Speaker 3: And you look at.

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Speaker 4: These cars site by side, especially when you're talking about

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Speaker 4: the SU seven, when you're not a BYD car and

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Speaker 4: a Zomi car.

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Speaker 3: BYD is a battery factory, battery.

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Speaker 4: Company and Zamia phone company, and they both come into

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Speaker 4: the car sector. Zomi's very first car out of the

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Speaker 4: gate is really quite exceptional, with a very nice design,

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Speaker 4: totally automated or as automated manufacturing process as you're likely

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Speaker 4: to get, and anybody who's had their hands on it,

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Speaker 4: including the CEO of Ford, does not want to let

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Speaker 4: it go. It is clearly either half the price for

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Speaker 4: the same quality or twice the quality for the same price.

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Speaker 4: But we're not talking about twenty percent Japanese advantages as

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Speaker 4: they had in the eighties, but we're talking about fifty

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Speaker 4: to one hundred percent advantages in many areas. And the

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Speaker 4: lead of the Chinese manufacturers is extending.

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Speaker 3: So that seems pretty obvious to me.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think now one of the interesting things,

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Speaker 1: like I had to pulled up a chart of shell

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Speaker 1: me and BYD is a listener. I wrote about it

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Speaker 1: for a long time. For like the last ten years,

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Speaker 1: Chinese stocks have kind of been dead bunny. So even

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Speaker 1: though like the rise of Chinese manufacturing dominance has been

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Speaker 1: a story that's existed for several years. I wrote about

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Speaker 1: it this week in the newsletter two, it has not

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Speaker 1: redounded to the benefit of Chinese shareholders. This is a phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: and there's actually been this incredible amount of you know,

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Speaker 1: they talk about like overcapacity, and I don't really like

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Speaker 1: that term, but you know, the things that have not

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Speaker 1: benefited shareholders. Do you think something's changing on that front

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Speaker 1: such that the lead that these companies have now developed

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Speaker 1: will be monetized in a real way.

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Speaker 4: There are signs that China is opening up it's capital markets,

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Speaker 4: small signs to begin with, but you know, they've got

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Speaker 4: mainland funds investing in Hong Kong stocks. You've got the

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Speaker 4: anointing of various Chinese companies by Xijiping at the meeting

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Speaker 4: that they had whenever it was.

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Speaker 3: Three weeks ago, four weeks ago.

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Speaker 4: You have the I think recognition on social media that

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Speaker 4: you have the strongest pr The China has area of

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Speaker 4: nighttime videos of cyberpunk cities which cannot be argued with.

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Speaker 4: And you know YouTubers going for a ride in the

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Speaker 4: s U seven and being blown away by the acceleration.

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Speaker 3: And I actually don't think it's a total accident.

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Speaker 4: There's black YouTubers who seem to find it easiest to

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Speaker 4: embrace the quality of Chinese products. But I think you're

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Speaker 4: going to have you're going to have two different debates.

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Speaker 4: You're going to have invested Tesla narrative, which seems to

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Speaker 4: be almost exclusively political at this At this point, there's

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Speaker 4: very little product content in the pitch at all. In fact,

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Speaker 4: the only photographs you see of Tesla products usually involve

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Speaker 4: them being on flame in flames, and I'm talking about

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Speaker 4: Elon Must's own account. And meanwhile, the Sea of Jami is,

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Speaker 4: you know, is posting up product porn.

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Speaker 3: All around the clock.

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Speaker 4: And just in terms of a product battle, in terms

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Speaker 4: of features and in terms of marketing and in terms of

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Speaker 4: price point, the Chinese have won.

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Speaker 3: It's as simple as that.

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Speaker 4: And if you don't recognize that, well, you're just not

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Speaker 4: paying attention.

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Speaker 2: How do you actually go about valuing political risk or

378
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Speaker 2: trading on political risk? Because when I think about journalists

379
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Speaker 2: potentially trading the competitive advantage isn't really number crunching, right,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of looking into the company and feeling the

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Speaker 2: vibe and figuring stuff out that no one else has

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Speaker 2: seen yet.

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Speaker 4: It's a multi dimensional approach. So I mean, I assume

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Speaker 4: that the earnings forecasts are priced into the stock array,

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Speaker 4: so there's no point reanalyzing that. You might as well

386
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Speaker 4: just you might as well just take that as a given.

387
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Speaker 4: The question is what do you see that other people

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Speaker 4: do not? And you know, journalists tend to have an

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Speaker 4: idea of the momentum.

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Speaker 3: Of a story.

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Speaker 4: So for instance, right now, I just I would say,

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Speaker 4: speaking as a journalist and editor, that the fall of

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Speaker 4: Elon Musk is the greatest business story of my entire life,

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Speaker 4: absolutely worth getting out of retirement for, because here you

395
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Speaker 4: have somebody who was real life iire man, you know,

396
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Speaker 4: absolutely genuinely has three well beating major achievements under his belt.

397
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Speaker 4: I don't care whether other people helped him do it,

398
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Speaker 4: but he made it happen more than anybody else in

399
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Speaker 4: the Western world.

400
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 3: But the problem is there's.

401
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Speaker 4: Only one of him, and he's up against a lot

402
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 4: of Chinese competitors in cause, in robotics, in batteries, in

403
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Speaker 4: mobile phones, in a whole bunch of different fields.

404
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Speaker 3: And I think he's gonna lose.

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Speaker 1: We should sit on this for a second, or we

406
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Speaker 1: should stay with us for a second, because I think

407
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people kind of like the

408
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 1: people who have called for let's see Trump wriggle out

409
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 1: of this one again, Like who've convinced themselves that actually,

410
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Speaker 1: this could never happen, that Trump will always wriggle out,

411
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Speaker 1: that Elon Musk will always riggle out, that he's always

412
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Speaker 1: able at the last second to find something because of

413
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Speaker 1: his cult to personality or genuine managerial skills for the

414
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Speaker 1: genuine managerial skills of the people right below his level.

415
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Speaker 1: You say, the story now is that the biggest this

416
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Speaker 1: is the fall.

417
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Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is the fall. I think

418
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Speaker 3: he may have a couple more tricks up his sleeve.

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Speaker 4: But you know, if you think about, you know, the

420
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 4: gap between the Tesla fundamental value now as an electric

421
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Speaker 4: car company that is ex growth, Like just think about that, yeah, Like,

422
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 4: think how much their valuation depended on extrapolations of growth

423
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 4: and the interruption of that growth. What that means to

424
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 4: any net present value calculation. The it's national market so

425
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 4: plainly being torched byl Mask himself. You know, with all

426
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Speaker 4: of the pr and propaganda that he puts out that

427
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 4: might shore up the Magabase. But every single thing that

428
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 4: he does, every single pitch on the wild on the

429
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 4: you know, in front of the White House, is turning

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Speaker 4: off both natural Tesla buyers and the big blue cities everyone,

431
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 4: everybody except for the Magabase, you know, so you're going

432
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Speaker 4: to probably.

433
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Speaker 2: Don't buy that many evs anyway, Well.

434
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 4: Apparently they are buying some, so it's not entirely it's

435
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 4: not entirely a fiction, but every single one that they

436
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 4: buy further cements this image as the magamobile and kills

437
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 4: the international story and international story which is in any

438
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Speaker 4: case in trouble. And because Tesla, you know, in China

439
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 4: doesn't have very exciting cars compared with the ones that

440
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Speaker 4: is that its competitors come out with, so I don't

441
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 4: think the international market is going to work, which means

442
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 4: that it's pretty much all down to robots. And he's

443
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 4: pretty much put all his chips on the Optimus, which

444
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 4: seems incredibly dangerous to me, and the mark of somebody

445
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 4: who's who's really desperate, and you know, putting it all

446
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 4: behind a very very risky race in which he is

447
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 4: starting from behind. How did you.

448
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 2: Get so into cars out of curiosity?

449
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 3: How do I get into cars? Isn't it just just

450
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 3: isn't that just something.

451
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 2: That just is you were born with an interest.

452
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 3: Like a cyber truck.

453
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 4: I mean, I was very disappointed when I saw the

454
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 4: metal panel. I thought somehow, I guess I didn't research enough.

455
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 4: I thought it looked like it had been forged somehow,

456
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 4: a single and then to see so I think the

457
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 4: most damaging thing for Tesla, the most damaging video for Tesla,

458
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 4: apart from the I Love Speed video, but the most

459
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 4: damaging video for Tesla is actually seeing the metal panels

460
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 4: come off because the glue isn't they use the right glue,

461
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 4: And that just sort of kills the mystique of something

462
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: that was sort of pitched as a Mars rover that

463
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 4: you can so I think the you know, the Optimus

464
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 4: hasn't been seen since there was a video they put

465
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 4: out in December of it rather gingerly working its way

466
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 4: down a slope, a little bit better than Joe Biden,

467
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 4: but not that much.

468
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: And meanwhile, if you follow it.

469
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 4: The pace of videos released onto social media by Unitary

470
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: and other Chinese makers.

471
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: It's got another conversation about I know they're beating us anywhere. No, No,

472
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: keep going. I know it's a big deal.

473
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't spin that one. It can't be spun.

474
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 4: Like a demo is a demo, and they're doing demos,

475
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 4: and those demo they're kicking ass, they're doing side flips.

476
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 3: You know that there's a.

477
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 4: Race in Beijing next month, like a humanoid robot race.

478
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 4: If Musk was really feeling it, he'd have an entry.

479
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 4: There's no way that Ultimus is going to go up

480
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 4: against you. However, many hundred robot competitors there are in

481
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 4: China that are going to show up to that the

482
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 4: race is lost already.

483
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 2: It is crazy though, even with all the social media

484
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: evidence and demonstrations of what the cars can actually do,

485
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 2: you still have people who are kind of conspiratorial about

486
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: the social media videos. So I remember one came out

487
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: two or three weeks ago. It was Tesla versus I

488
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 2: think it was buyd You.

489
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 3: There was a Tesla Jaumisu seven race.

490
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: Maybe well this one it was a YouTuber who was

491
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: driving a Tesla into a fake wall to test the

492
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: self driving technology, and the car just went right through

493
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: it in a very dramatic fashion, and you had all

494
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: these people, I assume Tesla fanboys and Musk fanboys saying

495
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 2: that the video had been faked and that no one

496
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: should believe it, and that Tesla's technology is great.

497
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 3: It's very right.

498
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 4: I mean, it's very hard to kind of to tell

499
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 4: truth from fabrication these days. Some of the Chinese videos,

500
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 4: but one of them had to be repeated in front

501
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 4: of a mirror just to kind of prove that it

502
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 4: was real. But I don't think anyone's really questioned that.

503
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 4: You know, there's one where there's like a slightly smaller

504
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 4: humanoid robot that was actually dancing and sync with a

505
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: couple of human dancers. Oh yeah, I saw which, and

506
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 4: that one looked completely impossible to It was from two

507
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 4: different camera angles. That was impossible to fake. So it's

508
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 4: going to be hard for anybody really to compete with that.

509
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: That's my view.

510
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: And if that's the whole of your story after the

511
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 4: collapse of the international car market, then what remains beyond

512
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 4: that in terms of the Tesla story, apart from maybe

513
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 4: military contracts, so you start to get a little bit

514
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 4: more science fiction, Like if you're looking for exit.

515
00:25:49,640 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: Ramps, what do you think about the dominance of US

516
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: internet companies, because that was actually maybe even more than Tesla, Right,

517
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: like the story of the twenty tens, you know Facebook

518
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: that uh And when you get out of the United States,

519
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: did they still have a sort of lock or still

520
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: like deep competitive moats the way they were perceived to

521
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: have in the twenty tens.

522
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 3: That's great, a great question.

523
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: T talk exists, So that's a problem for them. But

524
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: it's improvable that a non US company can have a

525
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: gigantic social media But what do you think this is

526
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: where the money is?

527
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 4: Well, I think the type platforms are extraordinarily vulnerable and

528
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 4: the vulnerable for the same reason Tesla is vulnerable. Tesla's

529
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 4: biggest factory is in Shanghai. Tesla could be you know,

530
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: it could be kind of crippled with a signature on

531
00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 4: a piece of paper.

532
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: Does US text your is never like to their benefit.

533
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: They never had a Chinese business. They don't have, you know,

534
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: like they never made Facebook's never made money in China.

535
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: Apple makes all.

536
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 4: Of its phones in China and has and has had

537
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 4: almost no success in diversifying its supply chain into India

538
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 4: or Vietnam. And I mean, look don't take my word

539
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 4: for the people I pay attention to it the right wing.

540
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 4: It's Palmer Lucky's recent interview, but he has a long

541
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 4: five minute spiel all about Apple and how easy it

542
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 4: would be for the Chinese government just to you know,

543
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 4: basically seize the factories and become the dominant supplier of

544
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: smartphones to the world. That you know, the most valuable

545
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 4: company in the existence of the United States could go

546
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 4: up like that with a couple of degrees.

547
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: And I don't think that.

548
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: Kind of risk is actually priced into the market. So

549
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 4: I have a short on Apple as well as Tesla,

550
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 4: and so I think that, you know, there are some

551
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: companies that are less vulnerable than that. But you know,

552
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 4: even the companies that have no industrial dependence on China,

553
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,239
Speaker 4: you know, a company like you know, Facebook or X.

554
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 4: Would it not be reasonable for Europe to say tomorrow

555
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 4: that X should be X in Europe should be divested

556
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 4: as TikTok was that. You know that Europe is tired

557
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 4: of you know, American politicians interfering in its internal affairs,

558
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 4: and the full spectrum of free European speech should be

559
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 4: absolutely given a platform. But there's no reason why outsiders

560
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 4: non Europeans should either participate or should actually have our

561
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: ownership have control in such companies. It would be a

562
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 4: very reasonable, consistent thing to do. And what about Facebook, Like,

563
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 4: there isn't a huge amount of European antagonism towards Facebook

564
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: right now, because Facebook really does comply with local regulations.

565
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 4: But all of these companies are very much dependent on

566
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 4: goodwill and on the Western Alliance continuing to exist in

567
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: some form.

568
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: So speaking of Europe, I mean there is a sense

569
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 2: that Europe is way way behind when it comes to technology,

570
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: certainly versus a place like China. Do you have faith

571
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 2: that that's going to reverse or is it the case that,

572
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: like maybe they get good at something else, something non

573
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: tech like what is driving some of the optimism here.

574
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 4: I'm not actually invested in any European stocks right now.

575
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: I do think that Europe is sort.

576
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 4: Of a side story here, but the ratios all off,

577
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 4: you know, I do not believe that magically in two

578
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 4: thousand and eight the United States economy started to perform

579
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 4: brilliantly and Europe just slipped into stagnation. I think it's

580
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: actually much more likely that, you know, Europe went through

581
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 4: austerity and has been pretty much going through austerity ever

582
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 4: since in some shape or form until the recent decision

583
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 4: by the German government to finance rearmament, and the United

584
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: States has basically avoided austerity at every possible juncture that

585
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: you know, two thousand and eight, rather than being a

586
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: purge of Wall Street in the way that the dot

587
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 4: com crash was a purge of Silicon Valley, instead of

588
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 4: that being a purge of War Street, the economy was

589
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 4: immediately reinflated, and it's been reinflated after every single minor

590
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 4: correction ever since, and so we've basically got twenty five

591
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 4: years of bubble.

592
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: Could you see a world you know, you mentioned that

593
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: in the end it might just make more sense for

594
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: Hungary to just throw in its lot with China. That's

595
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: where the future is industrially, that's where that's his biggest

596
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: trading partner. Could you see I mean, like that be

597
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, twenty years from now Germany making the same

598
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: calculation like core Europe.

599
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think it's gonna be twenty.

600
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 4: Years, Okay, so sooner, but you know, it's it's actually

601
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: madic if Europe is being bullied by Russia and the

602
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: United States.

603
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 3: Sometimes in concert. They want different things.

604
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: You both have territorial demands, and the United States is

605
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 4: also trying in a rather belligerent fashion to renegotiate, to

606
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 4: negotiate a debt restructuring.

607
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: It's a strange kind.

608
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 4: Of negotiation, which involves insulting all the people that hold

609
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: your treasuries. But it is a kind of negotiation.

610
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: But in some way it ends up ward. China is

611
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: a friend.

612
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 4: I think, you know, this has kind of lost Germany already.

613
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: I don't know whether, even if the tune change, whether

614
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 4: the German Atlanticists would revive. I think a kind of

615
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: trust has been broken, and a face of America has

616
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 4: been revealed.

617
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 3: It will be hard for people to forget. And there's

618
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 3: also been a you know, there's been a.

619
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: Nationalist resurgence in Canada, in Mexico, in China and in Europe.

620
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 4: You know, the people the Chinese, don't you know the

621
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 4: Chinese joke that you know, Trump is the great nation builder,

622
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 4: you know, the great nation builder of other nations. And

623
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 4: when Donald Tusk says reminds people that Europe is five

624
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 4: hundred million people who don't need to be begging three

625
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 4: hundred million American for help dealing with one hundred million

626
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: Russians who can't even handle forty million Ukrainians. When you

627
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: start to look at it a little bit differently, I

628
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: think some of that European graven this fools away.

629
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: So you mentioned the post two thousand and eight reaction

630
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: in the market, and I do think there is a

631
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: tendency on the part of policymakers to reinflate as quickly

632
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: as possible. And we've seen this over and over twenty

633
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: and eight, twenty twenty. They moved very very quickly to

634
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: get the market back up. And it does seem like

635
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: a very idiosyncratic characteristic of the US's political economy is

636
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: the importance of stocks and asset prices and this idea.

637
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: It really feels like everything kind of rests on your

638
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: portfolio of financial assets, so your retirement, your education, probably,

639
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: the things you buy, housing, basically everything. Are we just

640
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 2: doomed to be kind of forever tangled up with the

641
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: stock market or is there a realistic path for the

642
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: US to kind of move away from that, to disentang

643
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: itself from financialization.

644
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 3: I mean, you're totally hooked. Hm, You're totally hooked.

645
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 4: It's just it's been twenty it's been at least twenty

646
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 4: five years, be longer.

647
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: You know, you look at General.

648
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 4: Electric, you have the idea of shareholder value, which seems

649
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 4: so modern.

650
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: You know, I got a new fridge this week. This

651
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: is GE. I was like, I didn't even know G.

652
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: You'm still made fridge. It's a G.

653
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: Keep going, it's a badge or it's an I.

654
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Looked at it. I got a new frigerator. You look

655
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: at it and I was like, oh, it's a G.

656
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: You logo on. I wonder who makes it? Anyway?

657
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: Keep I mean G. Jackson jack Wells' G is the warning.

658
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the warning of a company whose earnings were

659
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 4: massage carefully up so that it actually acted like.

660
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: A pension phone rather than a company.

661
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 4: And you know, people warned about the growing importance of

662
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 4: G finance and the financialization of America's prime manufacturing company,

663
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 4: and the whole conglomerate was left as kind of a

664
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: husk at the end of the process.

665
00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 3: So that is the warning.

666
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 4: I I don't see how America kicks the habit.

667
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 3: You know, China had a policy of.

668
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 4: Hiding its light after cl being arguably right and through

669
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 4: right through up until twenty ten or so. You know,

670
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: arguably it's companies have hidden their light subsequently too. You know,

671
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 4: you look at their market values, you look at their trajectories,

672
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 4: it's nothing that impressive. But now we've got a moment

673
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 4: when you've got America pumped up through marketing and financialization,

674
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 4: and you've got China that has quietly built and produced,

675
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 4: and they are now being compared directly with one another

676
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 4: in b Yey versus Tesla, in Zami versus Apple, and

677
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 4: the comparison is pretty devastating.

678
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: Are your children learning Mandarin?

679
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: No?

680
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm serious, like, because I some people are doing that now.

681
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: Yet I just have one last question. You know, I

682
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: joked that if AI had been around, I think you

683
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: would have found a way to torment the Garka writers.

684
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: You did do that because it wasn't Ai, but you

685
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: had this belief that, like, oh, the commenters, that's where

686
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: the real action is, and you're gonna make the writers

687
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: compete with the commenters, and if the commenters are creating

688
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: better content, then hey, so be it that they're better.

689
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 3: Than the writers.

690
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: And I feel like for several years since then, you've

691
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 1: always sort of clung to this belief that that's where

692
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 1: like the real action is in various ways. It's like, yeah,

693
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: like the people tell us a little bit about what

694
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: you're building now, and does it tap into that spirit?

695
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 4: And I guess I'm taking two lessons from the Gorka

696
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 4: experience and just the experience of seeing watching flame Wars

697
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 4: on the internet, since god knows when. Echo chambers are very,

698
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 4: very dangerous, and arguably the Gorka writers were in an

699
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 4: echo chamber from maybe twenty eleven through to twenty fifteen

700
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 4: when it well blew up. And when I see Elon

701
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 4: Musk on Twitter, you know, or Joe Rogan in the

702
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 4: podcast world, it all looks extremely familiar that, you know,

703
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 4: here you have somebody who's basically hanging a little bit

704
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 4: too much attention to the to the most engaged members

705
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 4: of the audience.

706
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 3: Audience capture is real. It's real.

707
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 4: And that's actually why I don't think that Musk is

708
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 4: capable of getting out of this vortex that he's trapped in,

709
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 4: because he's playing to that gallery, playing to the gallery

710
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 4: of I see extreme right wingers, and they are going

711
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 4: to lead him and each other off the edge of

712
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 4: the cliff.

713
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: Nick, thank you so much for coming on odd List.

714
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: That was one of the gloomiest episodes. I really think so,

715
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: I really think so. But I really appreciate you coming on.

716
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: It was fantastic and I'm glad we made it happen

717
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: while you still have the Well that was grim.

718
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 2: It was a fun conversation, fun, but the subject matter

719
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: was grim. You know what I realized as we were

720
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: sort of reminiscing about Cocker. I totally forgot I wrote

721
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: like a freelance piece or just a contribution to do

722
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: you remember Ion nine?

723
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 3: Yeah?

724
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I wrote this article about like some

725
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: Russian billionaire that is trying to like reach eternal life

726
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: through robotics or something. Obviously you wrote.

727
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: That for Ion nine. Yeah, I didn't know you wrote

728
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: an Ion nine piece.

729
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: Well, I'd totally forgotten. Yeah, but obviously you know, like

730
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: more than ten years later, we're still waiting for immortality,

731
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 2: so tech can only go so far.

732
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna be waiting a lot longer than

733
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: ten years. I mean, I think there were two two

734
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: three things that I found bracing. One is the industrial

735
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: divide is massive and growing right between the US and China.

736
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: That seems real. That's really worrisome to me. The description

737
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: of the ways in which the current administration has like

738
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 1: insulted even like stalwart allies, Why mock Denmark and so forth?

739
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: That seems like a really big deal. And then obviously

740
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: you know the impulse to you know, you get a

741
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: little bit of a wobble in the sell off and

742
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: you blamed and I'm doing the prints the globalists. That

743
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: is disturbing.

744
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 2: Well, the other thing I was thinking about was, you know,

745
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: Nick mentioned China's starting to open up its capital accounts,

746
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: and it's kind of interesting, slash ironic that is happening

747
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: at the same time that the US seems to be

748
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: you know, they haven't done it yet, but there does

749
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: seem to be like this isolationist will when it comes

750
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: to capital markets, like maybe they don't want as much

751
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 2: foreign capital coming into the country, Like you get that sense, right,

752
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: And so they're the US and China kind of moving

753
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: in opposite directions. And then also like doing some of

754
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: the same stuff. It's interesting, like building out manufacturing.

755
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: Right. You know what I like about Nick that he's

756
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: a journalist who can act just like talk stocks. How

757
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 1: many journalists No, seriously, because there are journalists who are

758
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: in their specialty could say things, but how many of

759
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: them could just like bs with you a while about

760
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: like stocks. Nick can actually do that. It's actually really impressive.

761
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: I think you need to be careful about saying that

762
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 2: in an office full of at least like a few

763
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 2: dozen journalists who can on No.

764
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: Right, I feel like you're right. It's more than like

765
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: say like, eh, I'm short that or I'm long that,

766
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: and they'll like actually have a confident trading position. No. Look,

767
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people can tell you a lot about stocks,

768
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: whether they're like I mean, I well, we can't. We

769
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: can't short stocks obviously at Bloomberg. But like most journalists

770
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: I've ever talked to generally don't have like yeah, I'm

771
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: short Apple and Tesla, I'm long Boidea to show me like,

772
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, it just sort of by the index. Anyway,

773
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed talking to Nick.

774
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: It was fun to reminisce and also think about the

775
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 2: very grim future.

776
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: Shall we leave it there, Let's leave it there.

777
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the All Blots podcast.

778
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and.

779
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart.

780
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,959
Speaker 1: Follow Nick Detton. He's at Nick not Ned and check

781
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: out his new endeavor, Fututa Kiado. It's at Fututa Kiyado.

782
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 1: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen armand dash Ol

783
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: Bennett at dashbod and Kele Brooks at Kale Brooks. For

784
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg dot com slash

785
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: odd Lots, where you have all of our episodes and

786
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: you can read our daily newsletter, and you can chat

787
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: about all of these topics twenty four to seven in

788
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: our discord discord dot gg slash odlines.

789
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy Odd Lots, if you like it

790
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: when we talk to journalists who actually have opinions, then

791
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform.

792
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can

793
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: listen to all of our content absolutely ad free. All

794
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on

795
00:40:50,360 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and follow the directions there. Thanks for listening

796
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: in